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Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles! Vietnam War Vets' Rag?

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  • Linda
    While I understand and agree with some with Grasshopper s sentiments, I disagree with him that those who have honorably served during war or peace times are
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
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      While I understand and agree with some with Grasshopper's sentiments, I disagree with him that those who have honorably served during war or peace times are barely noticed.

      My maternal grandfather Stanley A. Martine (1890-1982,92) at 16 also lied as Mr. Buckles did about his age and ran away from home to serve in Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet 1907-11. My paternal grandfather was a Mennonite contentious objector, but my father John H. Lehman (86) went thru the physical 3 times before they missed his heart murmur (childhood rheumatic fever). He perfected Army Air Force airborne photographic reconnaissance in WWII. I didn't meet my husband Bill D. Howson (59) until after he returned from the Vietnam War as an Air Force Staff Sergeant in Munitions. He also had to apply several times due to a heart murmur. My younger brother John S. Lehman (49) was a Radioman onboard a nuclear sub off shore during Persian Gulf and Bill's younger brother Gary W. Webb (47) was a male nurse/Paramedic during Desert Storm.

      Only one not during wartime in harm's way was my grandfather. All were decorated and received heroes' welcomes except Bill. After being spit on at the airport, he changed into civvies in the men's room before going home.

      SO, if you want to write (right) a song or rag to commemorate anyone's heroism I think we owe the Vietnam Vets a long overdue show of gratitude for having the extra courage to serve, many giving their all, in an unpopular war.

      Just my 2 cents worth. Linda

      --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Grasshopper" <malepiano@...> wrote:
      >
      > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01buckles.html?_r=1&hpw
      >
      > Another piece of the Ragtime era is gone forever with Frank Buckles', the last known American World War I veteran, death. Mr. Buckles was a TRUE HERO, the kind we so desperately need right now! I really wish I could have met this true gentleman! In my opinion we live in a very shallow world, one that heaps accolades and honors on a mentally unstable, morally questionable and truly screwed up Michael Jackson while Mr. Buckles is barely noticed! How truly sad.
      >
      > All composers out there, how about writing a song about Frank Buckles, someone that truly deserves an honor like that!!!
      >
    • Linda
      Correction: William D. Howson, too proud of him not to correct typing too fast. Thanks!
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
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        Correction: William D. Howson, too proud of him not to correct typing too fast. Thanks!

        --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Linda" <molehill@...> wrote:
        >
        > While I understand and agree with some with Grasshopper's sentiments, I disagree with him that those who have honorably served during war or peace times are barely noticed.
        >
        > My maternal grandfather Stanley A. Martine (1890-1982,92) at 16 also lied as Mr. Buckles did about his age and ran away from home to serve in Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet 1907-11. My paternal grandfather was a Mennonite contentious objector, but my father John H. Lehman (86) went thru the physical 3 times before they missed his heart murmur (childhood rheumatic fever). He perfected Army Air Force airborne photographic reconnaissance in WWII. I didn't meet my husband Bill D. Howson (59) until after he returned from the Vietnam War as an Air Force Staff Sergeant in Munitions. He also had to apply several times due to a heart murmur. My younger brother John S. Lehman (49) was a Radioman onboard a nuclear sub off shore during Persian Gulf and Bill's younger brother Gary W. Webb (47) was a male nurse/Paramedic during Desert Storm.
        >
        > Only one not during wartime in harm's way was my grandfather. All were decorated and received heroes' welcomes except Bill. After being spit on at the airport, he changed into civvies in the men's room before going home.
        >
        > SO, if you want to write (right) a song or rag to commemorate anyone's heroism I think we owe the Vietnam Vets a long overdue show of gratitude for having the extra courage to serve, many giving their all, in an unpopular war.
        >
        > Just my 2 cents worth. Linda
        >
        > --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Grasshopper" <malepiano@> wrote:
        > >
        > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01buckles.html?_r=1&hpw
        > >
        > > Another piece of the Ragtime era is gone forever with Frank Buckles', the last known American World War I veteran, death. Mr. Buckles was a TRUE HERO, the kind we so desperately need right now! I really wish I could have met this true gentleman! In my opinion we live in a very shallow world, one that heaps accolades and honors on a mentally unstable, morally questionable and truly screwed up Michael Jackson while Mr. Buckles is barely noticed! How truly sad.
        > >
        > > All composers out there, how about writing a song about Frank Buckles, someone that truly deserves an honor like that!!!
        > >
        >
      • jazzpianist
        It should be noted that from 1914, when the conflict started, to perhaps mid-1918, that The Great War was rather unpopular in America, perhaps as much to some
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
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          It should be noted that from 1914, when the conflict started, to perhaps mid-1918, that The Great War was rather unpopular in America, perhaps as much to some degree as Vietnam or the current conflicts. It didn't help Wilson or his party that he was re-elected on a platform that included promises to not engage in the conflict - isolationism, of course. The really strong songs about our role in the conflict started finding their way to the stores in the Spring of 1918, but even before that were songs like the famous "I Didn't Raise My Boy to Be A Soldier," and ever so many about loss. Popular were the laments of children wondering where their father was (sometimes in Heaven), women saying goodbye to lovers they may never see again, and how many stars a family had in the window representing soldiers. Much rarer were the gung-ho pieces like "Over There," which clearly boosted the role of the soldiers in the conflict without directly condoning our involvement.

          Perhaps the longest lasting song to come out of The Great War was a piece first written by Irving Berlin in 1918, trotted out for some rehearsals and one or two performances, then put in a trunk for 20 years. God Bless America, while not anti-war, was clearly about what a fine country we live in, and why we would defend it - not why we would defend our allies. That morality was to be discussed much more in the late 1930s than the 1910s, when some were still feeling the wounds of Cuba and non-plussed about jumping into England and France's business.

          So while many of the boys were heroes, particularly the brave Hellfighters 369th Infantry comprised of black soldiers - many ragtime musicians (they were also the first to march down Broadway when they came home), they were as quickly forgotten then as they would be after Vietnam. And if you think it was any easier after WWII, watch The Best Years of Our Lives, starring veterans (one with both arms cut off), made in 1946. That tells the story.

          And what did the heroes come home to? The onset of prohibition and the realization that jobs promised to them when they returned simply weren't there. A good study of this is The Roaring Twenties with Cagney and Bogart, explaining why some soldiers were motivated, almost forced into participating in bootlegging and illegal liquor distribution simply because there were no other jobs available at that time. HBO's series The Boardwalk shows the same pattern. Most soldiers did not, but many did just the same.

          I appreciate the sentiment concerning Mr. Buckles, but know that the idea of who we celebrate and adorn with praise has not changed all that much in the past century. While we were at war, there was also a lot of concern about when Al Jolson's next show would open, Harry Houdini's escapes, Blossom Seeley's affairs, Irene Castle's latest dress and hairstyle, and Charlie Chaplin's trysts with young girls. Think about it - the "trial of the century" at that time had nothing to do with war. The Harry Thaw murder trial was news for quite a long time, only to be eclipsed during the next century by the OJ trial, or perhaps Roe V. Wade. Celebrity fascinates, even if it seems superfluous. Why? Most of the population has a better idea of how the celebrities live and want to be like them, and have virtually no frame of reference for what it was like to live for weeks in a dank trench wondering when that fatal charge would finally occur, or what part of you might get shot off, or frozen off in the cold. Honestly, which would have more fascination and relevance to you? Sadly, the desire to connect with somebody famous for their singular talents, not their skill at crawling through the mud with a bayonet.

          We can't change the perhaps misplaced adulation of Mr. Jackson (who was nonetheless a very talented musician all around), but we should not totally dismiss it either. Except, perhaps, for Lindsay Lohan. But if we keep soldiers in our prayers, and the ones we know in our hearts, we know they will always be somebody's hero.

          This comes from a guy whose dad wanted to be an Army Air Corp pilot in World War II, and was on his way from California to Fort MacArthur in Texas when he was literally grabbed off the bus and shipped back to California to work as an entertainer (he already was relatively famous in radio and film). Sam Edwards ultimately sang Sonny Boy live to more soldiers over the next three years than Al Jolson ever did, even via radio. While he had wanted to fight, his army career as an entertainer in league with his friend Sterling Holloway (later Winnie the Pooh to Sam's Tigger [on vinyl]) made him no less a hero, since morale is a component to keeping up the fighting strength of soldiers. So don't be too hard on those like Sam Edwards or Glenn Miller who were NCOs by virtue of their talent, since they still did see battle, and held up those around them as heroes.

          Bill Edwards

          --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Grasshopper" <malepiano@...> wrote:
          >
          > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01buckles.html?_r=1&hpw
          >
          > Another piece of the Ragtime era is gone forever with Frank Buckles', the last known American World War I veteran, death. Mr. Buckles was a TRUE HERO, the kind we so desperately need right now! I really wish I could have met this true gentleman! In my opinion we live in a very shallow world, one that heaps accolades and honors on a mentally unstable, morally questionable and truly screwed up Michael Jackson while Mr. Buckles is barely noticed! How truly sad.
          >
          > All composers out there, how about writing a song about Frank Buckles, someone that truly deserves an honor like that!!!
          >
        • Linda
          Sorry, another correction: Want to include all family members deserving credit. My hubby William D. Howson s father William L. Howson (pasted at 60) was an
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
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            Sorry, another correction: Want to include all family members deserving credit.

            My hubby William D. Howson's father William L. Howson (pasted at 60) was an Electrician's mate and his brother Robert A. Howson (90) a pilot both served in the Navy during WWII.

            I agree with Grasshopper that we tend to fixate on celebrities like Michael Jackson and Charlie Sheen because the media is always sensationalizing and thrusting them into the limelight instead of giving any credit (not news worthy) to the local small town true heroes that have gone un-saluted.

            Sounds like good material for at least a Country and Western song.


            --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Linda" <molehill@...> wrote:
            >
            > While I understand and agree with some with Grasshopper's sentiments, I disagree with him that those who have honorably served during war or peace times are barely noticed.
            >
            > My maternal grandfather Stanley A. Martine (1890-1982,92) at 16 also lied as Mr. Buckles did about his age and ran away from home to serve in Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet 1907-11. My paternal grandfather was a Mennonite contentious objector, but my father John H. Lehman (86) went thru the physical 3 times before they missed his heart murmur (childhood rheumatic fever). He perfected Army Air Force airborne photographic reconnaissance in WWII. I didn't meet my husband Bill D. Howson (59) until after he returned from the Vietnam War as an Air Force Staff Sergeant in Munitions. He also had to apply several times due to a heart murmur. My younger brother John S. Lehman (49) was a Radioman onboard a nuclear sub off shore during Persian Gulf and Bill's younger brother Gary W. Webb (47) was a male nurse/Paramedic during Desert Storm.
            >
            > Only one not during wartime in harm's way was my grandfather. All were decorated and received heroes' welcomes except Bill. After being spit on at the airport, he changed into civvies in the men's room before going home.
            >
            > SO, if you want to write (right) a song or rag to commemorate anyone's heroism I think we owe the Vietnam Vets a long overdue show of gratitude for having the extra courage to serve, many giving their all, in an unpopular war.
            >
            > Just my 2 cents worth. Linda
            >
            > --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Grasshopper" <malepiano@> wrote:
            > >
            > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01buckles.html?_r=1&hpw
            > >
            > > Another piece of the Ragtime era is gone forever with Frank Buckles', the last known American World War I veteran, death. Mr. Buckles was a TRUE HERO, the kind we so desperately need right now! I really wish I could have met this true gentleman! In my opinion we live in a very shallow world, one that heaps accolades and honors on a mentally unstable, morally questionable and truly screwed up Michael Jackson while Mr. Buckles is barely noticed! How truly sad.
            > >
            > > All composers out there, how about writing a song about Frank Buckles, someone that truly deserves an honor like that!!!
            > >
            >
          • Chris Christensen
            Linda, Perhaps forgotten is not quite the right word. My point in writing is that American s values have become so shallow that someone such as Michael
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
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              Linda,
               
              Perhaps "forgotten" is not quite the right word. My point in writing is that American's values have become so shallow that someone such as Michael Jackson whose character is undoubtedly questionable is revered as a hero and all this praise is heaped on him and in my opinion quite undeservably so. Jackson's death undoubtably, like many others in the entertainment business, has given him a god and saint-like status and not only obscured his real life accomplishments but clouded his real life behavior and character too. And in comparision to all the media hype surrounding Jackson's death, Frank Buckles is very much forgotten and ignored! It's a tragedy that someone who actually does some good in the world is so undervalued by society these days.
               
              You deservably have the right to feel proud of your relatives that served in the military. I feel the same pride in mine.
               
              It is indeed tragic that Vietnam, like Korea, is treated by history as such. People soon forget that whatever the morality of the action in Vietnam itself, it was fought, bled and died for by people like Bill Howson.
               
              Certainly a song praising the efforts of soldiers in Vietnam, and if memory serves me correctly there are several actually, a Ragtime song about Vietnam might be a little strange and awkward, don't you think?
               
              Have a nice day today!
               
              Chris


              From: Linda <molehill@...>
              To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 8:13:33 AM
              Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles! Vietnam War Vets' Rag?

              While I understand and agree with some with Grasshopper's sentiments, I disagree with him that those who have honorably served during war or peace times are barely noticed.

              My maternal grandfather Stanley A. Martine (1890-1982,92) at 16 also lied as Mr. Buckles did about his age and ran away from home to serve in Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet 1907-11. My paternal grandfather was a Mennonite contentious objector, but my father John H. Lehman (86) went thru the physical 3 times before they missed his heart murmur (childhood rheumatic fever). He perfected Army Air Force airborne photographic reconnaissance in WWII. I didn't meet my husband Bill D. Howson (59) until after he returned from the Vietnam War as an Air Force Staff Sergeant in Munitions. He also had to apply several times due to a heart murmur. My younger brother John S. Lehman (49) was a Radioman onboard a nuclear sub off shore during Persian Gulf and Bill's younger brother Gary W. Webb (47) was a male nurse/Paramedic during Desert Storm.

              Only one not during wartime in harm's way was my grandfather. All were decorated and received heroes' welcomes except Bill. After being spit on at the airport, he changed into civvies in the men's room before going home.

              SO, if you want to write (right) a song or rag to commemorate anyone's heroism I think we owe the Vietnam Vets a long overdue show of gratitude for having the extra courage to serve, many giving their all, in an unpopular war.

              Just my 2 cents worth. Linda

              --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Grasshopper" <malepiano@...> wrote:
              >
              > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01buckles.html?_r=1&hpw
              >
              > Another piece of the Ragtime era is gone forever with Frank Buckles', the last known American World War I veteran, death. Mr. Buckles was a TRUE HERO, the kind we so desperately need right now! I really wish I could have met this true gentleman! In my opinion we live in a very shallow world, one that heaps accolades and honors on a mentally unstable, morally questionable and truly screwed up Michael Jackson while Mr. Buckles is barely noticed! How truly sad.
              >
              > All composers out there, how about writing a song about Frank Buckles, someone that truly deserves an honor like that!!!
              >





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            • Chris Christensen
              You know, Bill, no matter what you say, entertaining at a USO is not the same as facing death on the battlefield. I hardly put warbling on stage or over the
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
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                You know, Bill, no matter what you say, entertaining at a USO is not the same as facing death on the battlefield. I hardly put warbling on stage or over the radio in the same league as being physically on the battlefield facing an enemy that will stop at nothing to kill you! Good grief, Bill!
                 
                The United States has always been completely taken in by media hype and addicted to celebrities.
                 
                Yes, Americans have and have always had to a degree very short memories. And I suppose it's only normal to want to put tragedy and bad times behind you. But that does not make it right or fair.
                 
                Like all wars, WWI was unnecessary, unpopular, at least until the media got a hold of it and expolited it for propaganda, preventable and a terrible tragedy.
                 
                As we have talked before, despite Michael Jackson's musical ability this does not make him a nice, good, moral, worthwhile and/or decent person. What really matters in life is not what gets attention, especially in our media hyped shallow society. Life is not fair.
                 

                 


                From: jazzpianist <perfbill@...>
                To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 9:14:27 AM
                Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!

                It should be noted that from 1914, when the conflict started, to perhaps mid-1918, that The Great War was rather unpopular in America, perhaps as much to some degree as Vietnam or the current conflicts. It didn't help Wilson or his party that he was re-elected on a platform that included promises to not engage in the conflict - isolationism, of course. The really strong songs about our role in the conflict started finding their way to the stores in the Spring of 1918, but even before that were songs like the famous "I Didn't Raise My Boy to Be A Soldier," and ever so many about loss. Popular were the laments of children wondering where their father was (sometimes in Heaven), women saying goodbye to lovers they may never see again, and how many stars a family had in the window representing soldiers. Much rarer were the gung-ho pieces like "Over There," which clearly boosted the role of the soldiers in the conflict without directly condoning our involvement.

                Perhaps the longest lasting song to come out of The Great War was a piece first written by Irving Berlin in 1918, trotted out for some rehearsals and one or two performances, then put in a trunk for 20 years. God Bless America, while not anti-war, was clearly about what a fine country we live in, and why we would defend it - not why we would defend our allies. That morality was to be discussed much more in the late 1930s than the 1910s, when some were still feeling the wounds of Cuba and non-plussed about jumping into England and France's business.

                So while many of the boys were heroes, particularly the brave Hellfighters 369th Infantry comprised of black soldiers - many ragtime musicians (they were also the first to march down Broadway when they came home), they were as quickly forgotten then as they would be after Vietnam. And if you think it was any easier after WWII, watch The Best Years of Our Lives, starring veterans (one with both arms cut off), made in 1946. That tells the story.

                And what did the heroes come home to? The onset of prohibition and the realization that jobs promised to them when they returned simply weren't there. A good study of this is The Roaring Twenties with Cagney and Bogart, explaining why some soldiers were motivated, almost forced into participating in bootlegging and illegal liquor distribution simply because there were no other jobs available at that time. HBO's series The Boardwalk shows the same pattern. Most soldiers did not, but many did just the same.

                I appreciate the sentiment concerning Mr. Buckles, but know that the idea of who we celebrate and adorn with praise has not changed all that much in the past century. While we were at war, there was also a lot of concern about when Al Jolson's next show would open, Harry Houdini's escapes, Blossom Seeley's affairs, Irene Castle's latest dress and hairstyle, and Charlie Chaplin's trysts with young girls. Think about it - the "trial of the century" at that time had nothing to do with war. The Harry Thaw murder trial was news for quite a long time, only to be eclipsed during the next century by the OJ trial, or perhaps Roe V. Wade. Celebrity fascinates, even if it seems superfluous. Why? Most of the population has a better idea of how the celebrities live and want to be like them, and have virtually no frame of reference for what it was like to live for weeks in a dank trench wondering when that fatal charge would finally occur, or what part of you might get shot off, or frozen off in the cold. Honestly, which would have more fascination and relevance to you? Sadly, the desire to connect with somebody famous for their singular talents, not their skill at crawling through the mud with a bayonet.

                We can't change the perhaps misplaced adulation of Mr. Jackson (who was nonetheless a very talented musician all around), but we should not totally dismiss it either. Except, perhaps, for Lindsay Lohan. But if we keep soldiers in our prayers, and the ones we know in our hearts, we know they will always be somebody's hero.

                This comes from a guy whose dad wanted to be an Army Air Corp pilot in World War II, and was on his way from California to Fort MacArthur in Texas when he was literally grabbed off the bus and shipped back to California to work as an entertainer (he already was relatively famous in radio and film). Sam Edwards ultimately sang Sonny Boy live to more soldiers over the next three years than Al Jolson ever did, even via radio. While he had wanted to fight, his army career as an entertainer in league with his friend Sterling Holloway (later Winnie the Pooh to Sam's Tigger [on vinyl]) made him no less a hero, since morale is a component to keeping up the fighting strength of soldiers. So don't be too hard on those like Sam Edwards or Glenn Miller who were NCOs by virtue of their talent, since they still did see battle, and held up those around them as heroes.

                Bill Edwards

                --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Grasshopper" <malepiano@...> wrote:
                >
                > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01buckles.html?_r=1&hpw
                >
                > Another piece of the Ragtime era is gone forever with Frank Buckles', the last known American World War I veteran, death. Mr. Buckles was a TRUE HERO, the kind we so desperately need right now! I really wish I could have met this true gentleman! In my opinion we live in a very shallow world, one that heaps accolades and honors on a mentally unstable, morally questionable and truly screwed up Michael Jackson while Mr. Buckles is barely noticed! How truly sad.
                >
                > All composers out there, how about writing a song about Frank Buckles, someone that truly deserves an honor like that!!!
                >




                ------------------------------------

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              • Bill Blomgren
                A quick note:  it hasn t gone totally ignored.  http://ThisIsTrue.com/d-buckles I subscribe to ThisIsTrue (a great little email distribution, by the way) -
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
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                  A quick note:  it hasn't gone totally ignored.
                   
                   
                  I subscribe to ThisIsTrue (a great little email distribution, by the way) - and the moment I spotted his death in the NYT, sent it off to Randy. 
                   
                  I inconvenienced a number of electrons without reason, since that was the honorary unsubscribe of the week.  (His send off to people that are little known who have had a major impact in the country.)


                  From: jazzpianist <perfbill@...>
                  To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 12:14:27 PM
                  Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!

                  It should be noted that from 1914, when the conflict started, to perhaps mid-1918, that The Great War was rather unpopular in America, perhaps as much to some degree as Vietnam or the current conflicts. It didn't help Wilson or his party that he was re-elected on a platform that included promises to not engage in the conflict - isolationism, of course. The really strong songs about our role in the conflict started finding their way to the stores in the Spring of 1918, but even before that were songs like the famous "I Didn't Raise My Boy to Be A Soldier," and ever so many about loss. Popular were the laments of children wondering where their father was (sometimes in Heaven), women saying goodbye to lovers they may never see again, and how many stars a family had in the window representing soldiers. Much rarer were the gung-ho pieces like "Over There," which clearly boosted the role of the soldiers in the conflict without directly condoning our involvement.
                  ...
                   
                  Bill Edwards

                  --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Grasshopper" <malepiano@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01buckles.html?_r=1&hpw
                  >
                  > Another piece of the Ragtime era is gone forever with Frank Buckles', the last known American World War I veteran, death. Mr. Buckles was a TRUE HERO, the kind we so desperately need right now! I really wish I could have met this true gentleman! In my opinion we live in a very shallow world, one that heaps accolades and honors on a mentally unstable, morally questionable and truly screwed up Michael Jackson while Mr. Buckles is barely noticed! How truly sad.
                  >
                  > All composers out there, how about writing a song about Frank Buckles, someone that truly deserves an honor like that!!!
                  >




                  ------------------------------------

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                • Bryan Cather
                  The late Mr. Buckles was the last US World War I veteran.  His fame came not from his heroic wartime record, but from his longetivity.  The number of
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
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                    The late Mr. Buckles was the last US World War I veteran.  His fame came not from his heroic wartime record, but from his longetivity.  The number of veterans, of all the wars, who are memorialized, by name, is staggering - as well it should be.  To ever forget not only the service they gave to their country, and, how their country recognized, or failed to recognize, their individual service after the conflicts were over, would be a grave thing, indeed.  With the passing of Mr. Buckles, we close a door to a period in our history, certainly.  One way to do this might be to memorialize not only Mr. Buckles but his entire generation of young men who gave of themselves, in service to their country.

                    That being said, to wax sentimentally about how glorious past generations were, compared to how depraved ours is does little to preserve a historical record.  Rather, it tends to distort it, if we choose only to look at the scrubbed and polished elements of society, and selectively ignore the very real, very human, and, by the way, always present element in society which was (and is, and ever shall be, world without end) NOT prim and proper Best Sunday School Behavior.  People, including celebrities, are at least  as capable as being awful as they are of being good, and there have always been those folks in society who we both uphold and abhor at the same time.

                    As for composing new rags to honor the last survivors of military conflicts, it might be interesting to compose a rag, using as thematic material an imagined meeting, say, in the late 1940s, of Albert Woolson and Pleasant Crump.  Dunno who they were?  Look em up.

                    Jones Morgan's another fellow an interesting rag might be composed about as well....heck, he may have been humming a rag tune or two himself not too long after his years of service were over.  Look HIM up, too.  He's worth it.

                    How about a rag for Eliza Moore, for that matter.....now there's someone who probably saw, and heard more that's at the heart of ragtime than a lot of other folks that've had rags written about them, or for them.....where's hers?  Look her up,too,  if the name doesn't ring a bell.

                    BryanC

                    --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Bill Blomgren <billblomgren@...> wrote:

                    From: Bill Blomgren <billblomgren@...>
                    Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!
                    To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:25 PM

                     

                    A quick note:  it hasn't gone totally ignored.
                     
                     
                    I subscribe to ThisIsTrue (a great little email distribution, by the way) - and the moment I spotted his death in the NYT, sent it off to Randy. 
                     
                    I inconvenienced a number of electrons without reason, since that was the honorary unsubscribe of the week.  (His send off to people that are little known who have had a major impact in the country.)


                    From: jazzpianist <perfbill@...>
                    To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 12:14:27 PM
                    Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!

                    It should be noted that from 1914, when the conflict started, to perhaps mid-1918, that The Great War was rather unpopular in America, perhaps as much to some degree as Vietnam or the current conflicts. It didn't help Wilson or his party that he was re-elected on a platform that included promises to not engage in the conflict - isolationism, of course. The really strong songs about our role in the conflict started finding their way to the stores in the Spring of 1918, but even before that were songs like the famous "I Didn't Raise My Boy to Be A Soldier," and ever so many about loss. Popular were the laments of children wondering where their father was (sometimes in Heaven), women saying goodbye to lovers they may never see again, and how many stars a family had in the window representing soldiers. Much rarer were the gung-ho pieces like "Over There," which clearly boosted the role of the soldiers in the conflict without directly condoning our involvement.
                    ...
                     
                    Bill Edwards

                    --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Grasshopper" <malepiano@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01buckles.html?_r=1&hpw
                    >
                    > Another piece of the Ragtime era is gone forever with Frank Buckles', the last known American World War I veteran, death. Mr. Buckles was a TRUE HERO, the kind we so desperately need right now! I really wish I could have met this true gentleman! In my opinion we live in a very shallow world, one that heaps accolades and honors on a mentally unstable, morally questionable and truly screwed up Michael Jackson while Mr. Buckles is barely noticed! How truly sad.
                    >
                    > All composers out there, how about writing a song about Frank Buckles, someone that truly deserves an honor like that!!!
                    >




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                  • RsH
                    ... Never the less I have to point out that a number of USO performers actually died in action during WWII, being shot down while being transported from one
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
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                      On Tue, 1 Mar 2011 14:22:24 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

                      >You know, Bill, no matter what you say, entertaining at a USO is not the same as
                      >facing death on the battlefield. I hardly put warbling on stage or over the
                      >radio in the same league as being physically on the battlefield facing an enemy
                      >that will stop at nothing to kill you! Good grief, Bill!

                      Never the less I have to point out that a number of USO performers actually died
                      'in action' during WWII, being shot down while being transported from one venue
                      to the next so that they could perform for the troops. So they always faced the
                      risk of 'confronting' the enemy and dying in action, as it were. If they went
                      out of North America to entertain the troops, be it in North Africa, Europe or
                      the 'Far East' they were always risking their life and their careers. And
                      entertaining the troops was extremely important, from a morale perspective. The
                      foot solder needed that sort of relief from the daily tensions they faced in
                      war, and the USO provided that for American solders, and other participating
                      nations such as Canada and the U.K. also did the same thing, and for the same
                      reason.

                      >The United States has always been completely taken in by media hype and addicted
                      >to celebrities.

                      That is not limited to the U.S.... I can assure you that the U.K. is also
                      addicted, as is Canada, France, Germany, India, Japan, Korea and virtually every
                      other nation on earth. The media might be different, but the addiction is the
                      same. Look at the Sun in the U.K. or the Daily Mirror and you will see that they
                      use the same hype and are even less restrained than U.S. media.

                      >Yes, Americans have and have always had to a degree very short memories. And I
                      >suppose it's only normal to want to put tragedy and bad times behind you. But
                      >that does not make it right or fair.

                      While true, that is human nature around the world. Take any nation and that
                      accusation will be true. The only individuals who remember more than short term
                      are those directly impacted by an event. Every one else tends to forget rather
                      quickly.

                      >Like all wars, WWI was unnecessary, unpopular, at least until the media got a
                      >hold of it and expolited it for propaganda, preventable and a terrible tragedy.

                      Unnecessary? To whom? The Germans felt it quite necessary, because of the way
                      Germany had been treated by France and England during the Empire building years
                      of the Nineteenth Century. The French and English had basically divided up
                      Africa and Asia between them, tossing Germany a pittance of territory in both
                      continents, and expected Germany to be happy. WWI took about 50 years to really
                      develop, and it was basically an economic war. Unpopular depends on who you ask.
                      On the American side of the Atlantic Ocean it was unpopular, but it was not
                      really that unpopular in Europe in 1914. By the end of the war it was very
                      unpopular with the Germans and their supporters, but not at the beginning, and
                      it was quite popular with the Brits and French at the beginning as well. The
                      reasons for that popularity go back to the 1500s, if not earlier. Do not look at
                      the war as if it were only based on U.S. views, or you are guilty of a typical
                      American habit of being centered on the U.S. only. Also remember that until WWI
                      the U.S. was viewed as a second rate nation, with Britannia ruling the waves. It
                      was only WWI that brought the industrial capabilities of the U.S. and the
                      economic power that came with those capabilities to the notice of the rest of
                      the world. Today that power is rapidly shifting elsewhere, as industry moves its
                      production to other parts of the world, and the U.S. becomes more of a service
                      based nation than a production based nation. So soon the U.S. will be back to
                      being a second rate nation if it isn't careful. That might be unpopular in the
                      U.S. but will be popular in other nations I can think of. That is particularly
                      true if the U.S. dollar ceases to be the 'world' currency, which also might soon
                      happen. During WWI the gold standard and silver ruled the currencies of the
                      world and the U.S. dollar was NOT the world currency either, which many in the
                      U.S. also forget. Life goes on, nations change, and popular becomes unpopular.
                      As happened to Ragtime... and other types of music over the years. Remember the
                      crooners? Where are they today?

                      >As we have talked before, despite Michael Jackson's musical ability this does
                      >not make him a nice, good, moral, worthwhile and/or decent person. What really
                      >matters in life is not what gets attention, especially in our media hyped
                      >shallow society. Life is not fair.

                      Here I agree. Michael Jackson was never my idea of a good musician, either, and
                      I was NOT impressed with his musical ability. Elvis Presley similarly never
                      impressed me. And while I liked some of the singers of the early 1950s, such as
                      Julius La Rosa and Perry Como, I recognised even then that styles would change
                      and their voices were great for the time, but would likely be forgotten in 20 or
                      30 years. Do you remember Alma Gluck? If not, look her up. Her recording of
                      "Carry Me Back to Old Virginny" for the Victor Talking Machine Co. was the first
                      celebrity recording by a classical musician to sell one million copies.

                      So I too agree, life is not fair! As for Buckles, remember that he drove
                      ambulances in WWI, and he too was NOT in the trenches, but he was close to them,
                      and he DID manage to live to be 110! That is what he should be remembered for.
                    • RsH
                      If we are going to go on about other military heroes who deserve a rag, how about a rag about Mary Ludwig Hays? Look her up! [She likely was one of the women
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        If we are going to go on about other military heroes who deserve a rag, how
                        about a rag about Mary Ludwig Hays? Look her up!

                        [She likely was one of the women who carried the Molly Pitcher name used to
                        cover women who supplied the men with water during American War of Independence
                        battles.]

                        After the Battle of Monmouth, General Washington asked about the woman who he
                        had seen loading a cannon on the battlefield. In commemoration for her courage,
                        Washington issued Mary Hays a warrant as a non commissioned officer. Afterwards,
                        she was known as "Sergeant Molly," a nickname that she used for the rest of her
                        life.
                      • Bryan Cather
                        try again.... BryanC ... From: RsH Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles! To:
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          try again....

                          BryanC

                          --- On Tue, 3/1/11, RsH <rsh_rsh@...> wrote:

                          From: RsH <rsh_rsh@...>
                          Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!
                          To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 6:46 PM

                           

                          If we are going to go on about other military heroes who deserve a rag, how
                          about a rag about Mary Ludwig Hays? Look her up!

                          [She likely was one of the women who carried the Molly Pitcher name used to
                          cover women who supplied the men with water during American War of Independence
                          battles.]

                          After the Battle of Monmouth, General Washington asked about the woman who he
                          had seen loading a cannon on the battlefield. In commemoration for her courage,
                          Washington issued Mary Hays a warrant as a non commissioned officer. Afterwards,
                          she was known as "Sergeant Molly," a nickname that she used for the rest of her
                          life.


                        • Chris Christensen
                          Bryan, you are incorrect. While Mr. Buckles was indeed the last known living WWI veteran his fame came from not just his long life but his tireless efforts to
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Bryan, you are incorrect. While Mr. Buckles was indeed the last known living WWI veteran his fame came from not just his long life but his tireless efforts to keep the memory of his comrades and WWI alive. If you'll take the time to read his biography you'll also see that he spent several years in the horror, fear and deprivation of a Japanese POW camp and when finally released weighed something like 90 pounds! Your statement about Mr. Buckles are reckless, shortsighted, disrespectful and uninformed! No, Mr. Buckles did not see actual combat and this may have been due to his age of 16. But he saw first hand the horrors of war. And his diligence and unselfish and tireless work on behalf of his fallen comrades is certainly enough to proclaim him a hero!!!
                             
                            There are no doubt plenty of fallen heroes but well-known and obscure that deserve songs written about them. But my focus in this discourse is Frank Buckles and I would highly appreciate you sticking to the subject!!!!


                            From: Bryan Cather <catt967@...>
                            To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 2:50:33 PM
                            Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!



                            The late Mr. Buckles was the last US World War I veteran.  His fame came not from his heroic wartime record, but from his longetivity.  The number of veterans, of all the wars, who are memorialized, by name, is staggering - as well it should be.  To ever forget not only the service they gave to their country, and, how their country recognized, or failed to recognize, their individual service after the conflicts were over, would be a grave thing, indeed.  With the passing of Mr. Buckles, we close a door to a period in our history, certainly.  One way to do this might be to memorialize not only Mr. Buckles but his entire generation of young men who gave of themselves, in service to their country.

                            That being said, to wax sentimentally about how glorious past generations were, compared to how depraved ours is does little to preserve a historical record.  Rather, it tends to distort it, if we choose only to look at the scrubbed and polished elements of society, and selectively ignore the very real, very human, and, by the way, always present element in society which was (and is, and ever shall be, world without end) NOT prim and proper Best Sunday School Behavior.  People, including celebrities, are at least  as capable as being awful as they are of being good, and there have always been those folks in society who we both uphold and abhor at the same time.

                            As for composing new rags to honor the last survivors of military conflicts, it might be interesting to compose a rag, using as thematic material an imagined meeting, say, in the late 1940s, of Albert Woolson and Pleasant Crump.  Dunno who they were?  Look em up.

                            Jones Morgan's another fellow an interesting rag might be composed about as well....heck, he may have been humming a rag tune or two himself not too long after his years of service were over.  Look HIM up, too.  He's worth it.

                            How about a rag for Eliza Moore, for that matter.....now there's someone who probably saw, and heard more that's at the heart of ragtime than a lot of other folks that've had rags written about them, or for them.....where's hers?  Look her up,too,  if the name doesn't ring a bell.

                            BryanC

                            --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Bill Blomgren <billblomgren@...> wrote:

                            From: Bill Blomgren <billblomgren@...>
                            Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!
                            To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:25 PM

                             

                            A quick note:  it hasn't gone totally ignored.
                             
                             http://ThisIsTrue.com/d-buckles
                             
                            I subscribe to ThisIsTrue (a great little email distribution, by the way) - and the moment I spotted his death in the NYT, sent it off to Randy. 
                             
                            I inconvenienced a number of electrons without reason, since that was the honorary unsubscribe of the week.  (His send off to people that are little known who have had a major impact in the country.)


                            From: jazzpianist <perfbill@...>
                            To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 12:14:27 PM
                            Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!

                            It should be noted that from 1914, when the conflict started, to perhaps mid-1918, that The Great War was rather unpopular in America, perhaps as much to some degree as Vietnam or the current conflicts. It didn't help Wilson or his party that he was re-elected on a platform that included promises to not engage in the conflict - isolationism, of course. The really strong songs about our role in the conflict started finding their way to the stores in the Spring of 1918, but even before that were songs like the famous "I Didn't Raise My Boy to Be A Soldier," and ever so many about loss. Popular were the laments of children wondering where their father was (sometimes in Heaven), women saying goodbye to lovers they may never see again, and how many stars a family had in the window representing soldiers. Much rarer were the gung-ho pieces like "Over There," which clearly boosted the role of the soldiers in the conflict without directly condoning our involvement.
                            ...
                             
                            Bill Edwards

                            --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Grasshopper" <malepiano@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01buckles.html?_r=1&hpw
                            >
                            > Another piece of the Ragtime era is gone forever with Frank Buckles', the last known American World War I veteran, death. Mr. Buckles was a TRUE HERO, the kind we so desperately need right now! I really wish I could have met this true gentleman! In my opinion we live in a very shallow world, one that heaps accolades and honors on a mentally unstable, morally questionable and truly screwed up Michael Jackson while Mr. Buckles is barely noticed! How truly sad.
                            >
                            > All composers out there, how about writing a song about Frank Buckles, someone that truly deserves an honor like that!!!
                            >




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                          • jazzpianist
                            I was not comparing battle veterans with entertainer veterans. I was making the point that even the leaders of the military find that celebrity in some form,
                            Message 13 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
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                              I was not comparing battle veterans with entertainer veterans. I was making the point that even the leaders of the military find that celebrity in some form, or at least entertainment, has a role in war, and did not, in any way, shape, or form, draw a direct or even indirect parallel between soldiers risking their lives at gun point (even though some entertainers, including my dad, did as well, and they were trained to do so) and those providing the morale on the stage. Please note that I would never, ever, do that under any circumstance, and they are two separate things. I just hate to be misread and misinterpreted, especially when I work to make such points so clear.

                              Good grief - you didn't get my point on either celebrity or troop morale. Hopefully now it is clearer. THERE WAS NO COMPARING INTENDED OR IMPLIED. I promise.

                              Bill E.

                              --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, Chris Christensen <malepiano@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > You know, Bill, no matter what you say, entertaining at a USO is not the same as
                              > facing death on the battlefield. I hardly put warbling on stage or over the
                              > radio in the same league as being physically on the battlefield facing an enemy
                              > that will stop at nothing to kill you! Good grief, Bill!
                              >
                              >
                              > The United States has always been completely taken in by media hype and addicted
                              > to celebrities.
                              >
                              >
                              > Yes, Americans have and have always had to a degree very short memories. And I
                              > suppose it's only normal to want to put tragedy and bad times behind you. But
                              > that does not make it right or fair.
                              >
                              >
                              > Like all wars, WWI was unnecessary, unpopular, at least until the media got a
                              > hold of it and expolited it for propaganda, preventable and a terrible tragedy.
                              >
                              > As we have talked before, despite Michael Jackson's musical ability this does
                              > not make him a nice, good, moral, worthwhile and/or decent person. What really
                              > matters in life is not what gets attention, especially in our media hyped
                              > shallow society. Life is not fair.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: jazzpianist <perfbill@...>
                              > To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 9:14:27 AM
                              > Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!
                              >
                              > It should be noted that from 1914, when the conflict started, to perhaps
                              > mid-1918, that The Great War was rather unpopular in America, perhaps as much to
                              > some degree as Vietnam or the current conflicts. It didn't help Wilson or his
                              > party that he was re-elected on a platform that included promises to not engage
                              > in the conflict - isolationism, of course. The really strong songs about our
                              > role in the conflict started finding their way to the stores in the Spring of
                              > 1918, but even before that were songs like the famous "I Didn't Raise My Boy to
                              > Be A Soldier," and ever so many about loss. Popular were the laments of children
                              > wondering where their father was (sometimes in Heaven), women saying goodbye to
                              > lovers they may never see again, and how many stars a family had in the window
                              > representing soldiers. Much rarer were the gung-ho pieces like "Over There,"
                              > which clearly boosted the role of the soldiers in the conflict without directly
                              > condoning our involvement.
                              >
                              > Perhaps the longest lasting song to come out of The Great War was a piece first
                              > written by Irving Berlin in 1918, trotted out for some rehearsals and one or two
                              > performances, then put in a trunk for 20 years. God Bless America, while not
                              > anti-war, was clearly about what a fine country we live in, and why we would
                              > defend it - not why we would defend our allies. That morality was to be
                              > discussed much more in the late 1930s than the 1910s, when some were still
                              > feeling the wounds of Cuba and non-plussed about jumping into England and
                              > France's business.
                              >
                              > So while many of the boys were heroes, particularly the brave Hellfighters 369th
                              > Infantry comprised of black soldiers - many ragtime musicians (they were also
                              > the first to march down Broadway when they came home), they were as quickly
                              > forgotten then as they would be after Vietnam. And if you think it was any
                              > easier after WWII, watch The Best Years of Our Lives, starring veterans (one
                              > with both arms cut off), made in 1946. That tells the story.
                              >
                              > And what did the heroes come home to? The onset of prohibition and the
                              > realization that jobs promised to them when they returned simply weren't there.
                              > A good study of this is The Roaring Twenties with Cagney and Bogart, explaining
                              > why some soldiers were motivated, almost forced into participating in
                              > bootlegging and illegal liquor distribution simply because there were no other
                              > jobs available at that time. HBO's series The Boardwalk shows the same pattern.
                              > Most soldiers did not, but many did just the same.
                              >
                              > I appreciate the sentiment concerning Mr. Buckles, but know that the idea of who
                              > we celebrate and adorn with praise has not changed all that much in the past
                              > century. While we were at war, there was also a lot of concern about when Al
                              > Jolson's next show would open, Harry Houdini's escapes, Blossom Seeley's
                              > affairs, Irene Castle's latest dress and hairstyle, and Charlie Chaplin's trysts
                              > with young girls. Think about it - the "trial of the century" at that time had
                              > nothing to do with war. The Harry Thaw murder trial was news for quite a long
                              > time, only to be eclipsed during the next century by the OJ trial, or perhaps
                              > Roe V. Wade. Celebrity fascinates, even if it seems superfluous. Why? Most of
                              > the population has a better idea of how the celebrities live and want to be like
                              > them, and have virtually no frame of reference for what it was like to live for
                              > weeks in a dank trench wondering when that fatal charge would finally occur, or
                              > what part of you might get shot off, or frozen off in the cold. Honestly, which
                              > would have more fascination and relevance to you? Sadly, the desire to connect
                              > with somebody famous for their singular talents, not their skill at crawling
                              > through the mud with a bayonet.
                              >
                              > We can't change the perhaps misplaced adulation of Mr. Jackson (who was
                              > nonetheless a very talented musician all around), but we should not totally
                              > dismiss it either. Except, perhaps, for Lindsay Lohan. But if we keep soldiers
                              > in our prayers, and the ones we know in our hearts, we know they will always be
                              > somebody's hero.
                              >
                              > This comes from a guy whose dad wanted to be an Army Air Corp pilot in World War
                              > II, and was on his way from California to Fort MacArthur in Texas when he was
                              > literally grabbed off the bus and shipped back to California to work as an
                              > entertainer (he already was relatively famous in radio and film). Sam Edwards
                              > ultimately sang Sonny Boy live to more soldiers over the next three years than
                              > Al Jolson ever did, even via radio. While he had wanted to fight, his army
                              > career as an entertainer in league with his friend Sterling Holloway (later
                              > Winnie the Pooh to Sam's Tigger [on vinyl]) made him no less a hero, since
                              > morale is a component to keeping up the fighting strength of soldiers. So don't
                              > be too hard on those like Sam Edwards or Glenn Miller who were NCOs by virtue of
                              > their talent, since they still did see battle, and held up those around them as
                              > heroes.
                              >
                              > Bill Edwards
                              >
                              > --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Grasshopper" <malepiano@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01buckles.html?_r=1&hpw
                              > >
                              > > Another piece of the Ragtime era is gone forever with Frank Buckles', the last
                              > >known American World War I veteran, death. Mr. Buckles was a TRUE HERO, the kind
                              > >we so desperately need right now! I really wish I could have met this true
                              > >gentleman! In my opinion we live in a very shallow world, one that heaps
                              > >accolades and honors on a mentally unstable, morally questionable and truly
                              > >screwed up Michael Jackson while Mr. Buckles is barely noticed! How truly sad.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > All composers out there, how about writing a song about Frank Buckles, someone
                              > >that truly deserves an honor like that!!!
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                            • jazzpianist
                              ... I would like to further point out another ambulance driver from WWI who lied about his age to get over the France, following his older brother, and did see
                              Message 14 of 28 , Mar 1, 2011
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                                --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, RsH <rsh_rsh@...> wrote:
                                > So I too agree, life is not fair! As for Buckles, remember that he drove
                                > ambulances in WWI, and he too was NOT in the trenches, but he was close to them,
                                > and he DID manage to live to be 110! That is what he should be remembered for.
                                >

                                I would like to further point out another ambulance driver from WWI who lied about his age to get over the France, following his older brother, and did see some peripheral action. He also helped to keep ragtime alive in later years (and still does, actually, in perpetuity). While his nostalgia has never been about his ambulance driving days, it still affects us to this day. He also became one of the biggest celebrities of his time, even without recording songs, or starring in movies.

                                His name was Walt Disney, and his efforts during WWII, even on the home front, contributed in no small way to the conclusion of that conflict. Just watch Victory Through Air Power some time. It influenced both the President and the Military, and helped to form strategy.

                                Not bad for an ambulance driver.

                                Chris - I just now did not compare Walt Disney to a soldier who was trapped at Verdun for three months, but I did not understate his role in the later conflict either. Two separate things. I promise.
                                Bill E.
                              • Chris Christensen
                                Bill, my intent in writing in the first place was to honor Frank Buckles and point out that another survivor of the Ragtime era is gone. I did not want nor
                                Message 15 of 28 , Mar 2, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Bill, my intent in writing in the first place was to honor Frank Buckles and point out that another survivor of the Ragtime era is gone. I did not want nor expect a big diatribe or debate on any other issues. I find it sad that both you and others on this forum need to split hairs and bring up issues that are only indirectly, if that, related to what I simply stated. And also to tear him apart! How very sad indeed. I am perfectly aware of Frank Buckles' role in WWI and he himself never lied(other than about his age)about any of his military service. I tend to try and focus on the positives and what he did do, which in my opinion more than makes him a hero.
                                   
                                  While we're on the subject of entertainers in USO shows etc., I would certainly like to see your list of entertainers that lost their lives while performing for soldiers. I would be so bold as to say it's probably very small. Certainly no big names. Glenn Miller and Carole Lombard died in plane crashes during the war, but according to Wilkepedia Miller's plane went down due to bad weather and Lombard's crashed into a mountain in Nevada taking the lives of 15 soldiers as well.  I talked to my great uncle, Salvatore Colleti who saw heavy action in the ETO in WWII about seeing USO shows and he happened to mention that the entertainers were given extra security, and undoubtably special treatment as well. If you ever have some time to waste and want to see a bad movie I suggest "For The Boys" with James Caan and Bette Midler. This terrible movie which unsuprisingly flopped at the box office tells the story of two WWII era entertainers and shows them to be nasty, arrogant, selfish, morally bankrupt and thoroughly unlikeable, and to the movie's credit is undoubtably based on real life characters! Yes, entertainment certainly has morale building value during wartime, however, number one it is extremely important to keep it in perspective when making general statements and number two that entertaining men that are risking their lives to save your freedom is a great PRIVILIGE AND HONOR!!! And I would say that to anybody from Bob Hope on down. I am sure that your father realized this.
                                   
                                  Honestly, Bill, I would have had more respect for you and the others the commented if they would have simply said that Frank Buckles was a hero and deserved honor and another piece of the Ragtime era is gone. Nothing more.


                                  From: jazzpianist <perfbill@...>
                                  To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 10:44:07 PM
                                  Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!

                                  I was not comparing battle veterans with entertainer veterans. I was making the point that even the leaders of the military find that celebrity in some form, or at least entertainment, has a role in war, and did not, in any way, shape, or form, draw a direct or even indirect parallel between soldiers risking their lives at gun point (even though some entertainers, including my dad, did as well, and they were trained to do so) and those providing the morale on the stage. Please note that I would never, ever, do that under any circumstance, and they are two separate things. I just hate to be misread and misinterpreted, especially when I work to make such points so clear.

                                  Good grief - you didn't get my point on either celebrity or troop morale. Hopefully now it is clearer. THERE WAS NO COMPARING INTENDED OR IMPLIED. I promise.

                                  Bill E.

                                  --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, Chris Christensen <malepiano@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > You know, Bill, no matter what you say, entertaining at a USO is not the same as
                                  > facing death on the battlefield. I hardly put warbling on stage or over the
                                  > radio in the same league as being physically on the battlefield facing an enemy
                                  > that will stop at nothing to kill you! Good grief, Bill!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The United States has always been completely taken in by media hype and addicted
                                  > to celebrities.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yes, Americans have and have always had to a degree very short memories. And I
                                  > suppose it's only normal to want to put tragedy and bad times behind you. But
                                  > that does not make it right or fair.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Like all wars, WWI was unnecessary, unpopular, at least until the media got a
                                  > hold of it and expolited it for propaganda, preventable and a terrible tragedy.
                                  >
                                  > As we have talked before, despite Michael Jackson's musical ability this does
                                  > not make him a nice, good, moral, worthwhile and/or decent person. What really
                                  > matters in life is not what gets attention, especially in our media hyped
                                  > shallow society. Life is not fair.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: jazzpianist <perfbill@...>
                                  > To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 9:14:27 AM
                                  > Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!
                                  >
                                  > It should be noted that from 1914, when the conflict started, to perhaps
                                  > mid-1918, that The Great War was rather unpopular in America, perhaps as much to
                                  > some degree as Vietnam or the current conflicts. It didn't help Wilson or his
                                  > party that he was re-elected on a platform that included promises to not engage
                                  > in the conflict - isolationism, of course. The really strong songs about our
                                  > role in the conflict started finding their way to the stores in the Spring of
                                  > 1918, but even before that were songs like the famous "I Didn't Raise My Boy to
                                  > Be A Soldier," and ever so many about loss. Popular were the laments of children
                                  > wondering where their father was (sometimes in Heaven), women saying goodbye to
                                  > lovers they may never see again, and how many stars a family had in the window
                                  > representing soldiers. Much rarer were the gung-ho pieces like "Over There,"
                                  > which clearly boosted the role of the soldiers in the conflict without directly
                                  > condoning our involvement.
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps the longest lasting song to come out of The Great War was a piece first
                                  > written by Irving Berlin in 1918, trotted out for some rehearsals and one or two
                                  > performances, then put in a trunk for 20 years. God Bless America, while not
                                  > anti-war, was clearly about what a fine country we live in, and why we would
                                  > defend it - not why we would defend our allies. That morality was to be
                                  > discussed much more in the late 1930s than the 1910s, when some were still
                                  > feeling the wounds of Cuba and non-plussed about jumping into England and
                                  > France's business.
                                  >
                                  > So while many of the boys were heroes, particularly the brave Hellfighters 369th
                                  > Infantry comprised of black soldiers - many ragtime musicians (they were also
                                  > the first to march down Broadway when they came home), they were as quickly
                                  > forgotten then as they would be after Vietnam. And if you think it was any
                                  > easier after WWII, watch The Best Years of Our Lives, starring veterans (one
                                  > with both arms cut off), made in 1946. That tells the story.
                                  >
                                  > And what did the heroes come home to? The onset of prohibition and the
                                  > realization that jobs promised to them when they returned simply weren't there.
                                  > A good study of this is The Roaring Twenties with Cagney and Bogart, explaining
                                  > why some soldiers were motivated, almost forced into participating in
                                  > bootlegging and illegal liquor distribution simply because there were no other
                                  > jobs available at that time. HBO's series The Boardwalk shows the same pattern.
                                  > Most soldiers did not, but many did just the same.
                                  >
                                  > I appreciate the sentiment concerning Mr. Buckles, but know that the idea of who
                                  > we celebrate and adorn with praise has not changed all that much in the past
                                  > century. While we were at war, there was also a lot of concern about when Al
                                  > Jolson's next show would open, Harry Houdini's escapes, Blossom Seeley's
                                  > affairs, Irene Castle's latest dress and hairstyle, and Charlie Chaplin's trysts
                                  > with young girls. Think about it - the "trial of the century" at that time had
                                  > nothing to do with war. The Harry Thaw murder trial was news for quite a long
                                  > time, only to be eclipsed during the next century by the OJ trial, or perhaps
                                  > Roe V. Wade. Celebrity fascinates, even if it seems superfluous. Why? Most of
                                  > the population has a better idea of how the celebrities live and want to be like
                                  > them, and have virtually no frame of reference for what it was like to live for
                                  > weeks in a dank trench wondering when that fatal charge would finally occur, or
                                  > what part of you might get shot off, or frozen off in the cold. Honestly, which
                                  > would have more fascination and relevance to you? Sadly, the desire to connect
                                  > with somebody famous for their singular talents, not their skill at crawling
                                  > through the mud with a bayonet.
                                  >
                                  > We can't change the perhaps misplaced adulation of Mr. Jackson (who was
                                  > nonetheless a very talented musician all around), but we should not totally
                                  > dismiss it either. Except, perhaps, for Lindsay Lohan. But if we keep soldiers
                                  > in our prayers, and the ones we know in our hearts, we know they will always be
                                  > somebody's hero.
                                  >
                                  > This comes from a guy whose dad wanted to be an Army Air Corp pilot in World War
                                  > II, and was on his way from California to Fort MacArthur in Texas when he was
                                  > literally grabbed off the bus and shipped back to California to work as an
                                  > entertainer (he already was relatively famous in radio and film). Sam Edwards
                                  > ultimately sang Sonny Boy live to more soldiers over the next three years than
                                  > Al Jolson ever did, even via radio. While he had wanted to fight, his army
                                  > career as an entertainer in league with his friend Sterling Holloway (later
                                  > Winnie the Pooh to Sam's Tigger [on vinyl]) made him no less a hero, since
                                  > morale is a component to keeping up the fighting strength of soldiers. So don't
                                  > be too hard on those like Sam Edwards or Glenn Miller who were NCOs by virtue of
                                  > their talent, since they still did see battle, and held up those around them as
                                  > heroes.
                                  >
                                  > Bill Edwards
                                  >
                                  > --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Grasshopper" <malepiano@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01buckles.html?_r=1&hpw
                                  > >
                                  > > Another piece of the Ragtime era is gone forever with Frank Buckles', the last
                                  > >known American World War I veteran, death. Mr. Buckles was a TRUE HERO, the kind
                                  > >we so desperately need right now! I really wish I could have met this true
                                  > >gentleman! In my opinion we live in a very shallow world, one that heaps
                                  > >accolades and honors on a mentally unstable, morally questionable and truly
                                  > >screwed up Michael Jackson while Mr. Buckles is barely noticed! How truly sad.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > All composers out there, how about writing a song about Frank Buckles, someone
                                  > >that truly deserves an honor like that!!!
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >




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                                • RsH
                                  I have not tried to denigrate what Frank Buckles or anyone else did during WWI. My comments have been in response to those made by others. As for the USO
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Mar 2, 2011
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                                    I have not tried to denigrate what Frank Buckles or anyone else did during WWI.
                                    My comments have been in response to those made by others. As for the USO
                                    performers, twenty-eight performers died in the course of their tours, from
                                    plane crashes, illness, or diseases contracted while on tour. In one such
                                    instance in 1943, a plane carrying a U.S.O. troupe crashed outside Lisbon,
                                    killing singer and actress Tamara Drasin, and severely injuring Broadway singer
                                    Jane Froman. Al Jolson, the first entertainer to go overseas in World War II,
                                    contracted malaria, resulting in the loss of his lung, cutting short his tour.
                                    So they too were taking risks. We hear little about their efforts, however.

                                    RsH
                                  • Chris Christensen
                                    I am sorry for the 28 performers that died while on tour during WWII. However, it should be pointed out that none were killed in the course of battle or under
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 2, 2011
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                                      I am sorry for the 28 performers that died while on tour during WWII. However, it should be pointed out that none were killed in the course of battle or under bombardment by enemy fire. If you can find one, I will stand corrected. Again, per an interview with an eyewitness entertainers were given special security and special treatment during their engagements for the military. And also again the proportion of their deaths given the millions of servicemen that died is very, very small!
                                       
                                      What are you talking about? You comments have been in response to statements I made!
                                       
                                      You said that you have "tried to not denigrate what Frank Buckles did during WWI". Well, Bill, you certainly haven't acknowleged anything about him either. I'm wondering if you bothered to even read the obit I included in my inital post or do any additional research on Frank, you seem to be so good at researching I'm rather suprised, Bill. President Obama said regarding Frank Buckles "a remarkable life that reminds us of the true meaning of patriotism and our obligations to each other as Americans". Personally I know of no Ragtime performer and very, very entertainers in general that have merited such a statement. I think Eubie Blake was aknowleged I believe by either Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan but I would be so bold as to hypothesize that this was done for politically correct purposes. Also, Frank will be buried at Arlington National Cemetary with full military honors and I hope Obama will be there. Again I know of very few Ragtime composers or players that have recieved that honor.
                                       
                                      You know, Bill, the spirit of your messages regarding this subject shows an arrogance that I find really disrespectful to the memory of Frank Buckles. Again, I would have much greater respect for you if you had shown some humility and perhaps aknowleged that Frank Buckles, even in a small way, had some virtues that we should all take notice of rather than nitpicking over peripheral issues for crying out loud!


                                      From: RsH <rsh_rsh@...>
                                      To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wed, March 2, 2011 8:43:38 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!

                                      I have not tried to denigrate what Frank Buckles or anyone else did during WWI.
                                      My comments have been in response to those made by others. As for the USO
                                      performers, twenty-eight performers died in the course of their tours, from
                                      plane crashes, illness, or diseases contracted while on tour. In one such
                                      instance in 1943, a plane carrying a U.S.O. troupe crashed outside Lisbon,
                                      killing singer and actress Tamara Drasin, and severely injuring Broadway singer
                                      Jane Froman. Al Jolson, the first entertainer to go overseas in World War II,
                                      contracted malaria, resulting in the loss of his lung, cutting short his tour.
                                      So they too were taking risks. We hear little about their efforts, however.

                                      RsH


                                      ------------------------------------

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                                    • Dan Mouyard
                                      I never thought I would have to say this in this group, but please stop feeding the trolls. Dan Mouyard
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 2, 2011
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                                        I never thought I would have to say this in this group, but please stop feeding the trolls.


                                        Dan Mouyard
                                      • jazzpianist
                                        Hi Chris. Even though your assessment of my intent is 180 degrees incorrect and in no way reflects what is on my heart, I will apologize for any offense to
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Mar 2, 2011
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                                          Hi Chris.

                                          Even though your assessment of my intent is 180 degrees incorrect and in no way reflects what is on my heart, I will apologize for any offense to you, which was absolutely not intended in my talking about a different topic, and will more careful in the future to not rock any sensitivities, and start a new topic heading even if it is only on a slight tangent.

                                          The apology is sincere, but the original intent also was in no way meant to denigrate Mr. Buckles, nor did I at any point say anything negative about Mr. Buckles, nor did I do anything to denigrate Mr. Buckles after having reread my posts two more times. Still, I am deeply regretful if anything I did write caused you to believe otherwise. I hope I don't have to type on eggshells, but for now I will just to keep the peace.

                                          Still maintaining my position, but now passionately saying that I respect Mr. Buckles in every possible way (I never said anything otherwise before, nor implied or intended it).

                                          Are we OK now?

                                          Bill E.

                                          --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, Chris Christensen <malepiano@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I am sorry for the 28 performers that died while on tour during WWII. However,
                                          > it should be pointed out that none were killed in the course of battle or under
                                          > bombardment by enemy fire. If you can find one, I will stand corrected. Again,
                                          > per an interview with an eyewitness entertainers were given special security and
                                          > special treatment during their engagements for the military. And also again the
                                          > proportion of their deaths given the millions of servicemen that died is very,
                                          > very small!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > What are you talking about? You comments have been in response to statements I
                                          > made!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > You said that you have "tried to not denigrate what Frank Buckles did during
                                          > WWI". Well, Bill, you certainly haven't acknowleged anything about him either.
                                          > I'm wondering if you bothered to even read the obit I included in my inital post
                                          > or do any additional research on Frank, you seem to be so good at researching
                                          > I'm rather suprised, Bill. President Obama said regarding Frank Buckles "a
                                          > remarkable life that reminds us of the true meaning of patriotism and our
                                          > obligations to each other as Americans". Personally I know of no Ragtime
                                          > performer and very, very entertainers in general that have merited such a
                                          > statement. I think Eubie Blake was aknowleged I believe by either Jimmy Carter
                                          > or Ronald Reagan but I would be so bold as to hypothesize that this was done for
                                          > politically correct purposes. Also, Frank will be buried at Arlington National
                                          > Cemetary with full military honors and I hope Obama will be there. Again I know
                                          > of very few Ragtime composers or players that have recieved that honor.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > You know, Bill, the spirit of your messages regarding this subject shows an
                                          > arrogance that I find really disrespectful to the memory of Frank Buckles.
                                          > Again, I would have much greater respect for you if you had shown some humility
                                          > and perhaps aknowleged that Frank Buckles, even in a small way, had some virtues
                                          > that we should all take notice of rather than nitpicking over peripheral issues
                                          > for crying out loud!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________
                                          > From: RsH <rsh_rsh@...>
                                          > To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Wed, March 2, 2011 8:43:38 AM
                                          > Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!
                                          >
                                          > I have not tried to denigrate what Frank Buckles or anyone else did during WWI.
                                          > My comments have been in response to those made by others. As for the USO
                                          > performers, twenty-eight performers died in the course of their tours, from
                                          > plane crashes, illness, or diseases contracted while on tour. In one such
                                          > instance in 1943, a plane carrying a U.S.O. troupe crashed outside Lisbon,
                                          > killing singer and actress Tamara Drasin, and severely injuring Broadway singer
                                          > Jane Froman. Al Jolson, the first entertainer to go overseas in World War II,
                                          > contracted malaria, resulting in the loss of his lung, cutting short his tour.
                                          > So they too were taking risks. We hear little about their efforts, however.
                                          >
                                          > RsH
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                        • jazzpianist
                                          Dan, I agree. Thanks for that. Bill E.
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Mar 2, 2011
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                                            Dan, I agree. Thanks for that.

                                            Bill E.

                                            --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, Dan Mouyard <dcmouyard@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I never thought I would have to say this in this group, but please stop
                                            > feeding the trolls.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Dan Mouyard
                                            >
                                          • Chris Christensen
                                            We re fine, Bill. Thank you and have a good evening. ________________________________ From: jazzpianist To:
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Mar 2, 2011
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              We're fine, Bill. Thank you and have a good evening.


                                              From: jazzpianist <perfbill@...>
                                              To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Wed, March 2, 2011 12:25:57 PM
                                              Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!

                                              Hi Chris.

                                              Even though your assessment of my intent is 180 degrees incorrect and in no way reflects what is on my heart, I will apologize for any offense to you, which was absolutely not intended in my talking about a different topic, and will more careful in the future to not rock any sensitivities, and start a new topic heading even if it is only on a slight tangent.

                                              The apology is sincere, but the original intent also was in no way meant to denigrate Mr. Buckles, nor did I at any point say anything negative about Mr. Buckles, nor did I do anything to denigrate Mr. Buckles after having reread my posts two more times. Still, I am deeply regretful if anything I did write caused you to believe otherwise. I hope I don't have to type on eggshells, but for now I will just to keep the peace.

                                              Still maintaining my position, but now passionately saying that I respect Mr. Buckles in every possible way (I never said anything otherwise before, nor implied or intended it).

                                              Are we OK now?

                                              Bill E.

                                              --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, Chris Christensen <malepiano@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I am sorry for the 28 performers that died while on tour during WWII. However,
                                              > it should be pointed out that none were killed in the course of battle or under
                                              > bombardment by enemy fire. If you can find one, I will stand corrected. Again,
                                              > per an interview with an eyewitness entertainers were given special security and
                                              > special treatment during their engagements for the military. And also again the
                                              > proportion of their deaths given the millions of servicemen that died is very,
                                              > very small!
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > What are you talking about? You comments have been in response to statements I
                                              > made!
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > You said that you have "tried to not denigrate what Frank Buckles did during
                                              > WWI". Well, Bill, you certainly haven't acknowleged anything about him either.
                                              > I'm wondering if you bothered to even read the obit I included in my inital post
                                              > or do any additional research on Frank, you seem to be so good at researching
                                              > I'm rather suprised, Bill. President Obama said regarding Frank Buckles "a
                                              > remarkable life that reminds us of the true meaning of patriotism and our
                                              > obligations to each other as Americans". Personally I know of no Ragtime
                                              > performer and very, very entertainers in general that have merited such a
                                              > statement. I think Eubie Blake was aknowleged I believe by either Jimmy Carter
                                              > or Ronald Reagan but I would be so bold as to hypothesize that this was done for
                                              > politically correct purposes. Also, Frank will be buried at Arlington National
                                              > Cemetary with full military honors and I hope Obama will be there. Again I know
                                              > of very few Ragtime composers or players that have recieved that honor.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > You know, Bill, the spirit of your messages regarding this subject shows an
                                              > arrogance that I find really disrespectful to the memory of Frank Buckles.
                                              > Again, I would have much greater respect for you if you had shown some humility
                                              > and perhaps aknowleged that Frank Buckles, even in a small way, had some virtues
                                              > that we should all take notice of rather than nitpicking over peripheral issues
                                              > for crying out loud!
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________
                                              > From: RsH <rsh_rsh@...>
                                              > To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Wed, March 2, 2011 8:43:38 AM
                                              > Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!
                                              >
                                              > I have not tried to denigrate what Frank Buckles or anyone else did during WWI.
                                              > My comments have been in response to those made by others. As for the USO
                                              > performers, twenty-eight performers died in the course of their tours, from
                                              > plane crashes, illness, or diseases contracted while on tour. In one such
                                              > instance in 1943, a plane carrying a U.S.O. troupe crashed outside Lisbon,
                                              > killing singer and actress Tamara Drasin, and severely injuring Broadway singer
                                              > Jane Froman. Al Jolson, the first entertainer to go overseas in World War II,
                                              > contracted malaria, resulting in the loss of his lung, cutting short his tour.
                                              > So they too were taking risks. We hear little about their efforts, however.
                                              >
                                              > RsH
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >




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                                            • jazzpianist
                                              I saw this this note this morning: Veteran is someone, who at one point in their life, wrote a blank check, payable to the United States of America for an
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                                I saw this this note this morning:

                                                "Veteran is someone, who at one point in their life, wrote a blank
                                                check, payable to the United States of America for an amount up to, and
                                                including, their life. That is and was an honor, and there are way too
                                                many people in this country who no longer remember this concept."

                                                This includes everyone from Mr. Buckles to the strongest of Marines to the most caring of WACS to ambulance drivers, and includes entertainers, since they were often not that far from the battle lines. All are owed different degrees of debt, and some obviously risked more, but they all knew the possibility of that eventuality when they went over. I found out this week that my dad, the entertainer, was also in a fourth wave on D-Day (they needed all hands) along with members of the orchestra, other singers and actors and writer, and some hard core soldiers as well. Not the same as the 5:00 wave, but I was surprised to find that he actually did some combat not only in France but in India, where he contracted malaria and spent an additional six months recovering after the war.

                                                So even those that had lesser roles of morale did get involved by command, and I was surprised to learn all of this from my mother this week. I also checked yesterday and his name is on the registry at the WWII Memorial (twice) on the Mall in DC. I wonder if there is a similar electronic record for WWI, as that memorial is significantly different and smaller, and sadly out of the way on the south side of the mall. Perhaps it is time for an upgrade of that memorial so Mr. Buckles can also be recognized in perpetuity as is Buck Sargent Sam Edwards.

                                                Just sayin'

                                                Bill E.
                                              • Chris Christensen
                                                Bill, Your father is to be commended for his war service, whatever that constituted. If he faced actually death in a combat situation he is equal to any
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Mar 3, 2011
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Bill,
                                                   
                                                  Your father is to be commended for his war service, whatever that constituted. If he faced actually death in a combat situation he is equal to any soldier. You are correct when you say "they are owed different degrees of debt". Yes, anybody who was close to the battle lines faced a degree of risk, but as I pointed out in two of my messages entertainers were given extra security and most likely extra privilege. Morale building is important to be sure but it is an adjunct to the real business at hand and nothing more.
                                                   
                                                  You are correct that there is no national World War I memorial in Washington D.C. The only monument that exists is a small memorial to the local(Washington D.C. area)soldiers of WWI. And that was in very sorry shape. That is why in my opinion Frank Buckles deserves so much credit, Bill. He fought and campaigned tireless for a national World War I memorial, similar to the wonderful and moving World War II memorial that your father as well as my grandfather and great uncle are listed on. He did this until his dying day. Frank Buckles was an eloquent and soft spoken gentleman who unselfishly fought to keep the memory and dignity of his fallen comerades alive. That's why he is a hero, Bill. Again, Bill, Frank was always very honest about his own war service and quck to give credit to others. The Washington D.C. WWI memorial is finally being restored thanks to Frank Buckles,  and tragically he did not live to see it completed.
                                                   
                                                  Rest in Peace, Frank,


                                                  From: jazzpianist <perfbill@...>
                                                  To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 6:29:09 AM
                                                  Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!

                                                  I saw this this note this morning:

                                                  "Veteran is someone, who at one point in their life, wrote a blank
                                                  check, payable to the United States of America for an amount up to, and
                                                  including, their life. That is and was an honor, and there are way too
                                                  many people in this country who no longer remember this concept."

                                                  This includes everyone from Mr. Buckles to the strongest of Marines to the most caring of WACS to ambulance drivers, and includes entertainers, since they were often not that far from the battle lines. All are owed different degrees of debt, and some obviously risked more, but they all knew the possibility of that eventuality when they went over. I found out this week that my dad, the entertainer, was also in a fourth wave on D-Day (they needed all hands) along with members of the orchestra, other singers and actors and writer, and some hard core soldiers as well. Not the same as the 5:00 wave, but I was surprised to find that he actually did some combat not only in France but in India, where he contracted malaria and spent an additional six months recovering after the war.

                                                  So even those that had lesser roles of morale did get involved by command, and I was surprised to learn all of this from my mother this week. I also checked yesterday and his name is on the registry at the WWII Memorial (twice) on the Mall in DC. I wonder if there is a similar electronic record for WWI, as that memorial is significantly different and smaller, and sadly out of the way on the south side of the mall. Perhaps it is time for an upgrade of that memorial so Mr. Buckles can also be recognized in perpetuity as is Buck Sargent Sam Edwards.

                                                  Just sayin'

                                                  Bill E.



                                                  ------------------------------------

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                                                • Bryan Cather
                                                  The Veterans Memorial in St. Louis was constructed in 1937 or thereabouts, as a memorial to those who served in WWI.  Within its doors is a museum which
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                                    The Veterans Memorial in St. Louis was constructed in 1937 or thereabouts, as a memorial to those who served in WWI.  Within its doors is a museum which commemorates those who have served in all our military conflicts.  But the structure itself is a memorial to those who served in WWI.

                                                    BryanC

                                                    --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Chris Christensen <malepiano@...> wrote:

                                                    From: Chris Christensen <malepiano@...>
                                                    Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!
                                                    To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Date: Thursday, March 3, 2011, 10:28 AM

                                                     

                                                    Bill,
                                                     
                                                    Your father is to be commended for his war service, whatever that constituted. If he faced actually death in a combat situation he is equal to any soldier. You are correct when you say "they are owed different degrees of debt". Yes, anybody who was close to the battle lines faced a degree of risk, but as I pointed out in two of my messages entertainers were given extra security and most likely extra privilege. Morale building is important to be sure but it is an adjunct to the real business at hand and nothing more.
                                                     
                                                    You are correct that there is no national World War I memorial in Washington D.C. The only monument that exists is a small memorial to the local(Washington D.C. area)soldiers of WWI. And that was in very sorry shape. That is why in my opinion Frank Buckles deserves so much credit, Bill. He fought and campaigned tireless for a national World War I memorial, similar to the wonderful and moving World War II memorial that your father as well as my grandfather and great uncle are listed on. He did this until his dying day. Frank Buckles was an eloquent and soft spoken gentleman who unselfishly fought to keep the memory and dignity of his fallen comerades alive. That's why he is a hero, Bill. Again, Bill, Frank was always very honest about his own war service and quck to give credit to others. The Washington D.C. WWI memorial is finally being restored thanks to Frank Buckles,  and tragically he did not live to see it completed.
                                                     
                                                    Rest in Peace, Frank,


                                                    From: jazzpianist <perfbill@...>
                                                    To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 6:29:09 AM
                                                    Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!

                                                    I saw this this note this morning:

                                                    "Veteran is someone, who at one point in their life, wrote a blank
                                                    check, payable to the United States of America for an amount up to, and
                                                    including, their life. That is and was an honor, and there are way too
                                                    many people in this country who no longer remember this concept."

                                                    This includes everyone from Mr. Buckles to the strongest of Marines to the most caring of WACS to ambulance drivers, and includes entertainers, since they were often not that far from the battle lines. All are owed different degrees of debt, and some obviously risked more, but they all knew the possibility of that eventuality when they went over. I found out this week that my dad, the entertainer, was also in a fourth wave on D-Day (they needed all hands) along with members of the orchestra, other singers and actors and writer, and some hard core soldiers as well. Not the same as the 5:00 wave, but I was surprised to find that he actually did some combat not only in France but in India, where he contracted malaria and spent an additional six months recovering after the war.

                                                    So even those that had lesser roles of morale did get involved by command, and I was surprised to learn all of this from my mother this week. I also checked yesterday and his name is on the registry at the WWII Memorial (twice) on the Mall in DC. I wonder if there is a similar electronic record for WWI, as that memorial is significantly different and smaller, and sadly out of the way on the south side of the mall. Perhaps it is time for an upgrade of that memorial so Mr. Buckles can also be recognized in perpetuity as is Buck Sargent Sam Edwards.

                                                    Just sayin'

                                                    Bill E.



                                                    ------------------------------------

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                                                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                                  • Chris Christensen
                                                    That s wonderful that the Veteran s Memorial in St. Louis exists, but again there is no national monument to those who served in WWI in Washington D.C. It s
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                                      That's wonderful that the Veteran's Memorial in St. Louis exists, but again there is no national monument to those who served in WWI in Washington D.C. It's nice that a city felt that the Veterans of the "Great War" deserved a monument. Was the St. Louis memorial a WPA project?


                                                      From: Bryan Cather <catt967@...>
                                                      To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 11:24:21 AM
                                                      Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!



                                                      The Veterans Memorial in St. Louis was constructed in 1937 or thereabouts, as a memorial to those who served in WWI.  Within its doors is a museum which commemorates those who have served in all our military conflicts.  But the structure itself is a memorial to those who served in WWI.

                                                      BryanC

                                                      --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Chris Christensen <malepiano@...> wrote:

                                                      From: Chris Christensen <malepiano@...>
                                                      Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!
                                                      To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Date: Thursday, March 3, 2011, 10:28 AM

                                                       

                                                      Bill,
                                                       
                                                      Your father is to be commended for his war service, whatever that constituted. If he faced actually death in a combat situation he is equal to any soldier. You are correct when you say "they are owed different degrees of debt". Yes, anybody who was close to the battle lines faced a degree of risk, but as I pointed out in two of my messages entertainers were given extra security and most likely extra privilege. Morale building is important to be sure but it is an adjunct to the real business at hand and nothing more.
                                                       
                                                      You are correct that there is no national World War I memorial in Washington D.C. The only monument that exists is a small memorial to the local(Washington D.C. area)soldiers of WWI. And that was in very sorry shape. That is why in my opinion Frank Buckles deserves so much credit, Bill. He fought and campaigned tireless for a national World War I memorial, similar to the wonderful and moving World War II memorial that your father as well as my grandfather and great uncle are listed on. He did this until his dying day. Frank Buckles was an eloquent and soft spoken gentleman who unselfishly fought to keep the memory and dignity of his fallen comerades alive. That's why he is a hero, Bill. Again, Bill, Frank was always very honest about his own war service and quck to give credit to others. The Washington D.C. WWI memorial is finally being restored thanks to Frank Buckles,  and tragically he did not live to see it completed.
                                                       
                                                      Rest in Peace, Frank,


                                                      From: jazzpianist <perfbill@...>
                                                      To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 6:29:09 AM
                                                      Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!

                                                      I saw this this note this morning:

                                                      "Veteran is someone, who at one point in their life, wrote a blank
                                                      check, payable to the United States of America for an amount up to, and
                                                      including, their life. That is and was an honor, and there are way too
                                                      many people in this country who no longer remember this concept."

                                                      This includes everyone from Mr. Buckles to the strongest of Marines to the most caring of WACS to ambulance drivers, and includes entertainers, since they were often not that far from the battle lines. All are owed different degrees of debt, and some obviously risked more, but they all knew the possibility of that eventuality when they went over. I found out this week that my dad, the entertainer, was also in a fourth wave on D-Day (they needed all hands) along with members of the orchestra, other singers and actors and writer, and some hard core soldiers as well. Not the same as the 5:00 wave, but I was surprised to find that he actually did some combat not only in France but in India, where he contracted malaria and spent an additional six months recovering after the war.

                                                      So even those that had lesser roles of morale did get involved by command, and I was surprised to learn all of this from my mother this week. I also checked yesterday and his name is on the registry at the WWII Memorial (twice) on the Mall in DC. I wonder if there is a similar electronic record for WWI, as that memorial is significantly different and smaller, and sadly out of the way on the south side of the mall. Perhaps it is time for an upgrade of that memorial so Mr. Buckles can also be recognized in perpetuity as is Buck Sargent Sam Edwards.

                                                      Just sayin'

                                                      Bill E.



                                                      ------------------------------------

                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EliteSyncopations/

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                                                    • Bryan Cather
                                                      If its not, it sure looks like one. Interestingly, its known locally as the Soldier s Memorial , even though it memorializes all branches of the service. 
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                                        If its not, it sure looks like one.

                                                        Interestingly, its known locally as the "Soldier's Memorial", even though it memorializes all branches of the service.  Its a neat structure, too, and the museum within its doors is fascinating, because it not only contains stuff from US soldiers, but stuff they brought back with them from various conflicts (well, no war brides, but all sorts of other stuff)

                                                        That being said....can we return to ragtime now? 

                                                        BryanC

                                                        --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Chris Christensen <malepiano@...> wrote:

                                                        From: Chris Christensen <malepiano@...>
                                                        Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!
                                                        To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Date: Thursday, March 3, 2011, 1:32 PM

                                                         

                                                        That's wonderful that the Veteran's Memorial in St. Louis exists, but again there is no national monument to those who served in WWI in Washington D.C. It's nice that a city felt that the Veterans of the "Great War" deserved a monument. Was the St. Louis memorial a WPA project?


                                                        From: Bryan Cather <catt967@...>
                                                        To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 11:24:21 AM
                                                        Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!



                                                        The Veterans Memorial in St. Louis was constructed in 1937 or thereabouts, as a memorial to those who served in WWI.  Within its doors is a museum which commemorates those who have served in all our military conflicts.  But the structure itself is a memorial to those who served in WWI.

                                                        BryanC

                                                        --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Chris Christensen <malepiano@...> wrote:

                                                        From: Chris Christensen <malepiano@...>
                                                        Subject: Re: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!
                                                        To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Date: Thursday, March 3, 2011, 10:28 AM

                                                         

                                                        Bill,
                                                         
                                                        Your father is to be commended for his war service, whatever that constituted. If he faced actually death in a combat situation he is equal to any soldier. You are correct when you say "they are owed different degrees of debt". Yes, anybody who was close to the battle lines faced a degree of risk, but as I pointed out in two of my messages entertainers were given extra security and most likely extra privilege. Morale building is important to be sure but it is an adjunct to the real business at hand and nothing more.
                                                         
                                                        You are correct that there is no national World War I memorial in Washington D.C. The only monument that exists is a small memorial to the local(Washington D.C. area)soldiers of WWI. And that was in very sorry shape. That is why in my opinion Frank Buckles deserves so much credit, Bill. He fought and campaigned tireless for a national World War I memorial, similar to the wonderful and moving World War II memorial that your father as well as my grandfather and great uncle are listed on. He did this until his dying day. Frank Buckles was an eloquent and soft spoken gentleman who unselfishly fought to keep the memory and dignity of his fallen comerades alive. That's why he is a hero, Bill. Again, Bill, Frank was always very honest about his own war service and quck to give credit to others. The Washington D.C. WWI memorial is finally being restored thanks to Frank Buckles,  and tragically he did not live to see it completed.
                                                         
                                                        Rest in Peace, Frank,


                                                        From: jazzpianist <perfbill@...>
                                                        To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 6:29:09 AM
                                                        Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Rest in Peace, Frank Buckles!

                                                        I saw this this note this morning:

                                                        "Veteran is someone, who at one point in their life, wrote a blank
                                                        check, payable to the United States of America for an amount up to, and
                                                        including, their life. That is and was an honor, and there are way too
                                                        many people in this country who no longer remember this concept."

                                                        This includes everyone from Mr. Buckles to the strongest of Marines to the most caring of WACS to ambulance drivers, and includes entertainers, since they were often not that far from the battle lines. All are owed different degrees of debt, and some obviously risked more, but they all knew the possibility of that eventuality when they went over. I found out this week that my dad, the entertainer, was also in a fourth wave on D-Day (they needed all hands) along with members of the orchestra, other singers and actors and writer, and some hard core soldiers as well. Not the same as the 5:00 wave, but I was surprised to find that he actually did some combat not only in France but in India, where he contracted malaria and spent an additional six months recovering after the war.

                                                        So even those that had lesser roles of morale did get involved by command, and I was surprised to learn all of this from my mother this week. I also checked yesterday and his name is on the registry at the WWII Memorial (twice) on the Mall in DC. I wonder if there is a similar electronic record for WWI, as that memorial is significantly different and smaller, and sadly out of the way on the south side of the mall. Perhaps it is time for an upgrade of that memorial so Mr. Buckles can also be recognized in perpetuity as is Buck Sargent Sam Edwards.

                                                        Just sayin'

                                                        Bill E.



                                                        ------------------------------------

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                                                        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EliteSyncopations/

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                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EliteSyncopations/join
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                                                      • RsH
                                                        I agree that each nation should have such a monument. In Canada, where I live, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_War_Memorial_%28Canada%29 for the
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                                          I agree that each nation should have such a monument. In Canada, where I live,
                                                          see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_War_Memorial_%28Canada%29 for the
                                                          Canadian National War Memorial, which was originally erected to commemorate WWI
                                                          but later had WWII and the Korean War added. There are photos of it at the
                                                          Wikipedia page.

                                                          RsH
                                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                          On Thu, 3 Mar 2011 11:32:36 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

                                                          >That's wonderful that the Veteran's Memorial in St. Louis exists, but again
                                                          >there is no national monument to those who served in WWI in Washington D.C. It's
                                                          >nice that a city felt that the Veterans of the "Great War" deserved a monument.
                                                          >Was the St. Louis memorial a WPA project?
                                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.