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Re: Got Lights?

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  • peterhawken
    As I understand it, you have a smalled battery connected to the main vehicle electrical system and being charged by the alternator attached to the engine. The
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 1, 2004
      As I understand it, you have a smalled battery connected to the main
      vehicle electrical system and being charged by the alternator
      attached to the engine. The lighting battery is juist powering the
      lights and isn't connected in any other way. Am I right so far?

      Asuming that is correct, it would seem to make sense to remove the
      alternator that is in place at the moment and fit a larger alternator
      and regulater from a car rather than the small one in pace right
      now. If you have built the rest of the buggy yourself, this
      shouldn't present too many problems and will give you unlimited
      running time on the lights. You will also find that if they are
      being powered by an alternator they will be rather brighter than just
      on the battery. Once in this setup, the large battery will become
      redundant because the alternator should be providing sufficient power
      to drive the lights and charge the existing battery.

      Remember that these components are all high power devices and can
      deliver a huge current. Although it's only 12V, you can still do a
      lot of damage if you get the wiring wrong.

      --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "kphenix500"
      <kphenix500@y...> wrote:
      > Hey guys, I need help. I need to locate or get advice on how to
      > build a device to safely (2 amps max) charge a U1 category power
      > chair battery by connecting to a 12v automotive/motorcycle
      > electrical system. It sounds pretty simple but I have yet to find a
      > company that offers anything like this. I don't know much about
      > electronics - I'm learning by the despiration method. I have a
      > motorcycle powered mini sand buggy that I built from scatch.
      > Unfortunately, the motor's stator only produces 23 to 27 amps - not
      > nearly enough to power the 370 watt off road lighting system I'm
      > using. I am using an Interstate DCS33 battery on the lights in
      > isolation. This setup provides several hours of nighttime duning
      > pleasure. The downside is that I must remove the 30lb battery to
      > charge it. I'd like to have a way to charge on the fly. Any ideas?
      > -ken
    • Stefan Trethan
      Hi all.. I wondered if someone here has built a frequency generator. I have two max038, and would like the set them up so that one can modulate the second
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 1, 2004
        Hi all..

        I wondered if someone here has built a frequency generator.

        I have two max038, and would like the set them up so that one
        can modulate the second either frequency or amplitude, as i like.
        Of course the "standard functions" like manual setting of amplitude
        and frequency, and offset should be present.
        How do i best add modulation inputs to the MAX038?

        I also want a output stage that allows for 20Vpp minimum, like commercial
        generators.
        Can i use a opamp for this? I never worked with fast opamps, what is
        important?
        Any suggestions for a suitable opamp?

        The MAX038 works up to 20MHz, which i would like not to decrease by
        improper design.
        What do i need to pay attention to when designing the PCB?


        My second question is about a frequency counter, i would like to build my
        own either
        from 2 ICM7225 or a cpld, but i do not know what to use as an input stage.
        The counters have ttl/cmos in, how do i best design a input stage that is
        failsave....

        thanks a lot

        Stefan
      • manifold
        ... commercial ... build my ... stage. ... that is ... Yes, I have built a generator using the Exar part, XR2206 ?, and I have built a three phase DDS
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 1, 2004
          --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
          <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
          > Hi all..
          >
          > I wondered if someone here has built a frequency generator.
          >
          > I have two max038, and would like the set them up so that one
          > can modulate the second either frequency or amplitude, as i like.
          > Of course the "standard functions" like manual setting of amplitude
          > and frequency, and offset should be present.
          > How do i best add modulation inputs to the MAX038?
          >
          > I also want a output stage that allows for 20Vpp minimum, like
          commercial
          > generators.
          > Can i use a opamp for this? I never worked with fast opamps, what is
          > important?
          > Any suggestions for a suitable opamp?
          >
          > The MAX038 works up to 20MHz, which i would like not to decrease by
          > improper design.
          > What do i need to pay attention to when designing the PCB?
          >
          >
          > My second question is about a frequency counter, i would like to
          build my
          > own either
          > from 2 ICM7225 or a cpld, but i do not know what to use as an input
          stage.
          > The counters have ttl/cmos in, how do i best design a input stage
          that is
          > failsave....
          >
          > thanks a lot
          >
          > Stefan

          Yes, I have built a generator using the Exar part, XR2206 ?, and I
          have built a three phase DDS generator from scratch. Not quite the
          same as what you are looking for though. The Maxim part looks good and
          easy to use. You can try looking in applications notes for a good
          output amplifier for your signal generator. It is probably going to
          look a like an op-amp or a high frequency discrete push-pull output
          stage. I used an APEX PA02 for the output stage on the XR2206 because
          that is what I needed and it was really easy and I had one from work.
          The APEX PA09 would work for you but dang they are expensive! $158USD.

          You might want to call the Maxim sales office and see if a field
          applications engineer can point you to the right place for the output
          amp. Don't by shy, it's what they are there for. If they ask about
          volumes, tell them the truth, it's a low volume application, less than
          a hundred per year.

          Also try Linear Technology's application notes. They are very good
          about publishing interesting designs using LT parts and they usually
          show complete designs that just may include the output stage you are
          looking for.
        • kphenix500
          Thanks gentlemen for your response. I posted pics in the photo section under Ken s Toy. This is a mini sand rail (less than 600lbs) and is powered by a
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 1, 2004
            Thanks gentlemen for your response. I posted pics in the photo
            section under Ken's Toy. This is a "mini" sand rail (less than
            600lbs) and is powered by a motorcycle engine producing around 80hp.
            The alternator or stator is encased in the engine's side cover and
            cannot be replaced. there is a company known as Ricky Stator that
            rewinds motorcycle & ATV stators to increase their output.
            Unfortunately mine is already operating at peak output and cannot be
            enhanced. It is a fairly common practice with this type vehicle to
            add an external automotive alternator but it is generally driven off
            the final drive and not the crankshaft. Consiquently the alternator
            is only producing power when the vehicle is moving and it also robs
            horespower. You could almost use the light switch for brakes. Just
            joking. Anyway, these are some of the reasons why I chose the aux
            battery setup instead. Bill Darden @ batteryfaq.org says I may be
            able to connect a diode isolator between the 2 batteries. If this
            sounds viable, I need help finding the proper value diode to let no
            more than 2 amps pass through. Thanks again for your advice.
            -ken

            --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "kphenix500"
            <kphenix500@y...> wrote:
            > Hey guys, I need help. I need to locate or get advice on how to
            > build a device to safely (2 amps max) charge a U1 category power
            > chair battery by connecting to a 12v automotive/motorcycle
            > electrical system. It sounds pretty simple but I have yet to find
            a
            > company that offers anything like this. I don't know much about
            > electronics - I'm learning by the despiration method. I have a
            > motorcycle powered mini sand buggy that I built from scatch.
            > Unfortunately, the motor's stator only produces 23 to 27 amps -
            not
            > nearly enough to power the 370 watt off road lighting system I'm
            > using. I am using an Interstate DCS33 battery on the lights in
            > isolation. This setup provides several hours of nighttime duning
            > pleasure. The downside is that I must remove the 30lb battery to
            > charge it. I'd like to have a way to charge on the fly. Any ideas?
            > -ken
          • Dave Mucha
            ... Hi Ken, since you don t get anything for free, your altenator will increase drag on the engine and rob hp from the engine as it runs. Just so you
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 1, 2004
              --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "kphenix500"
              <kphenix500@y...> wrote:
              > Hey guys, I need help. I need to locate or get advice on how to
              > build a device to safely (2 amps max) charge a U1 category power
              > chair battery by connecting to a 12v automotive/motorcycle
              > electrical system. It sounds pretty simple but I have yet to find a
              > company that offers anything like this. I don't know much about
              > electronics - I'm learning by the despiration method. I have a
              > motorcycle powered mini sand buggy that I built from scatch.
              > Unfortunately, the motor's stator only produces 23 to 27 amps - not
              > nearly enough to power the 370 watt off road lighting system I'm
              > using. I am using an Interstate DCS33 battery on the lights in
              > isolation. This setup provides several hours of nighttime duning
              > pleasure. The downside is that I must remove the 30lb battery to
              > charge it. I'd like to have a way to charge on the fly. Any ideas?
              > -ken

              Hi Ken,

              since you don't get anything for free, your altenator will increase
              drag on the engine and rob hp from the engine as it runs. Just so
              you recognise that.


              That said, your altinaotr will generate voltage based on speed and
              yoru voltage regulator will only pass what is needed. Since you
              probably can charge the battery at idle, high RPM is time spend not
              using the generated power. And by the looks of your photos, that
              does not idle very often.

              Ergo, you should be able to see much higher voltages as the motor RPM
              increases and with the higher voltages, you should be able to deliver
              higher watts.

              Since the voltage regulator is designed to limit voltage to the
              battery at somewhere around 14.7 volts, it is cutting off the power
              most of the time.

              The trick would be to run unfettered at the higher voltages and pull
              off what you can.

              A multi stage voltage regulator might allow you to let the voltage
              run up to 30 volts and then use that to charge the battery.

              Also, you don't really need all 300 watts. If you are getting a few
              hours of run time, charging with 150 watts would increase your time
              considderably.

              Also, you could connect the buggy to the car if you trailer the beast
              and charge it all the way home.

              Just some ideas to kick around.

              Dave
            • Stefan Trethan
              a simple diode isn t going to work. you need a current limiter. is the big ground and the small ground connected? (chassis or so) you will need a series
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 1, 2004
                a simple diode isn't going to work.
                you need a current limiter.

                is the "big ground" and the small ground connected? (chassis or so)

                you will need a series transistor....

                ST


                On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:17:20 -0000, kphenix500 <kphenix500@...>
                wrote:

                > Thanks gentlemen for your response. I posted pics in the photo
                > section under Ken's Toy. This is a "mini" sand rail (less than
                > 600lbs) and is powered by a motorcycle engine producing around 80hp.
                > The alternator or stator is encased in the engine's side cover and
                > cannot be replaced. there is a company known as Ricky Stator that
                > rewinds motorcycle & ATV stators to increase their output.
                > Unfortunately mine is already operating at peak output and cannot be
                > enhanced. It is a fairly common practice with this type vehicle to
                > add an external automotive alternator but it is generally driven off
                > the final drive and not the crankshaft. Consiquently the alternator
                > is only producing power when the vehicle is moving and it also robs
                > horespower. You could almost use the light switch for brakes. Just
                > joking. Anyway, these are some of the reasons why I chose the aux
                > battery setup instead. Bill Darden @ batteryfaq.org says I may be
                > able to connect a diode isolator between the 2 batteries. If this
                > sounds viable, I need help finding the proper value diode to let no
                > more than 2 amps pass through. Thanks again for your advice.
                > -ken
                >
                > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "kphenix500"
                > <kphenix500@y...> wrote:
                >> Hey guys, I need help. I need to locate or get advice on how to
                >> build a device to safely (2 amps max) charge a U1 category power
                >> chair battery by connecting to a 12v automotive/motorcycle
                >> electrical system. It sounds pretty simple but I have yet to find
                > a
                >> company that offers anything like this. I don't know much about
                >> electronics - I'm learning by the despiration method. I have a
                >> motorcycle powered mini sand buggy that I built from scatch.
                >> Unfortunately, the motor's stator only produces 23 to 27 amps -
                > not
                >> nearly enough to power the 370 watt off road lighting system I'm
                >> using. I am using an Interstate DCS33 battery on the lights in
                >> isolation. This setup provides several hours of nighttime duning
                >> pleasure. The downside is that I must remove the 30lb battery to
                >> charge it. I'd like to have a way to charge on the fly. Any ideas?
                >> -ken
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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              • Steve
                Dave, I don t think you understand how an alternator and regulator work. It controls both the voltage -and- current, so it s possible to draw, say, 60A at
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 2, 2004
                  Dave, I don't think you understand how an alternator and regulator
                  work. It controls both the voltage -and- current, so it's possible to
                  draw, say, 60A at 13.8V from idle to full bore.

                  A vehicle alternator is a 3 phase AC generator that regulates voltage
                  and current by controlling current in the rotor.

                  Here's more detail:
                  http://www.autosite.com/garage/subsys/bachargs.asp

                  To Ken: you don't select a diode to limit current. The alternator's
                  regulator handles that. However, I doubt your current alternator is
                  going to last long charging two batteries, especially when you are
                  adding a load like those lights.

                  Why not just find a larger alternator that will fit? And then do the
                  same for the main battery?

                  Alien Steve

                  --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
                  wrote:
                  ...
                  > That said, your altinaotr will generate voltage based on speed and
                  > yoru voltage regulator will only pass what is needed. Since you
                  > probably can charge the battery at idle, high RPM is time spend not
                  > using the generated power. And by the looks of your photos, that
                  > does not idle very often.
                  >
                  > Ergo, you should be able to see much higher voltages as the motor RPM
                  > increases and with the higher voltages, you should be able to deliver
                  > higher watts.
                  >
                  > Since the voltage regulator is designed to limit voltage to the
                  > battery at somewhere around 14.7 volts, it is cutting off the power
                  > most of the time.
                  >
                  > The trick would be to run unfettered at the higher voltages and pull
                  > off what you can.
                  >
                  > A multi stage voltage regulator might allow you to let the voltage
                  > run up to 30 volts and then use that to charge the battery.
                  >
                  > Also, you don't really need all 300 watts. If you are getting a few
                  > hours of run time, charging with 150 watts would increase your time
                  > considderably.
                  ...
                • Stefan Trethan
                  he just wants to partially charge the second batt. (not refill all current the lamps draw.) when he turns off the lamps it can charge fully. you need only
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 2, 2004
                    he just wants to partially charge the second batt.
                    (not refill all current the lamps draw.)
                    when he turns off the lamps it can charge fully.

                    you need only limit the current, the voltage is set by the present
                    regulator.
                    when the big battery is full the new current regulator will have almost
                    zero drop.
                    when the big battery is empty the current regulator has enough drop to
                    keep the current
                    at 2A (or whatever wanted).

                    a vehicle "voltage regulator" only regulates voltage, by changing the
                    rotor current.
                    it does NOT regulate the current in any way.

                    (believe me i have built one for my car with temperature compensation and
                    all (winter))

                    st


                    On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:58:22 -0000, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

                    > Dave, I don't think you understand how an alternator and regulator
                    > work. It controls both the voltage -and- current, so it's possible to
                    > draw, say, 60A at 13.8V from idle to full bore.
                    >
                    > A vehicle alternator is a 3 phase AC generator that regulates voltage
                    > and current by controlling current in the rotor.
                    >
                    > Here's more detail:
                    > http://www.autosite.com/garage/subsys/bachargs.asp
                    >
                    > To Ken: you don't select a diode to limit current. The alternator's
                    > regulator handles that. However, I doubt your current alternator is
                    > going to last long charging two batteries, especially when you are
                    > adding a load like those lights.
                    >
                    > Why not just find a larger alternator that will fit? And then do the
                    > same for the main battery?
                    >
                    > Alien Steve
                    >
                    > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > ...
                    >> That said, your altinaotr will generate voltage based on speed and
                    >> yoru voltage regulator will only pass what is needed. Since you
                    >> probably can charge the battery at idle, high RPM is time spend not
                    >> using the generated power. And by the looks of your photos, that
                    >> does not idle very often.
                    >>
                    >> Ergo, you should be able to see much higher voltages as the motor RPM
                    >> increases and with the higher voltages, you should be able to deliver
                    >> higher watts.
                    >>
                    >> Since the voltage regulator is designed to limit voltage to the
                    >> battery at somewhere around 14.7 volts, it is cutting off the power
                    >> most of the time.
                    >>
                    >> The trick would be to run unfettered at the higher voltages and pull
                    >> off what you can.
                    >>
                    >> A multi stage voltage regulator might allow you to let the voltage
                    >> run up to 30 volts and then use that to charge the battery.
                    >>
                    >> Also, you don't really need all 300 watts. If you are getting a few
                    >> hours of run time, charging with 150 watts would increase your time
                    >> considderably.
                    > ...
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > Electronics_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  • manifold
                    Motorcycle regulator/alternator sets are a little more primitive. The end of the crankshaft has the alternator rotor attached to it which is a set of permanent
                    Message 9 of 24 , Apr 2, 2004
                      Motorcycle regulator/alternator sets are a little more primitive. The
                      end of the crankshaft has the alternator rotor attached to it which is
                      a set of permanent magnets. There is a three phase stator around it
                      and the regulator schematics that I have seen use SCRs to control the
                      pulse times to the battery.

                      I assume it is a phase angle triggered circuit but I am not sure where
                      the current limiting comes from. I do know that I have burned up a few
                      stators on various motorcycles usually because the regulator
                      overcharged the battery and it dried it out within a few months. After
                      replaceing the water in the battery and push starting it for a few
                      weeks, gosh, the stator was bad. I rewound it and it worked. Twice.

                      I would go ahead and try connecting the batteries the same way that RV
                      batteries are connected and see if it works. Do RV's use a simple
                      diode to isolate the systems? It probably will be fine and the
                      secondary battery will get some charge from the engine alternator and
                      it will not burn up because you keep water in your batteries :)

                      It will still put extra drag on your engine while the batteries are
                      charging and when your lights are on. The good news is that you may be
                      able to use a smaller lighter secondary battery.

                      Are you using tungsten lights? How about getting more efficient lights
                      that take less power?



                      --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
                      > Dave, I don't think you understand how an alternator and regulator
                      > work. It controls both the voltage -and- current, so it's possible to
                      > draw, say, 60A at 13.8V from idle to full bore.
                      >
                      > A vehicle alternator is a 3 phase AC generator that regulates voltage
                      > and current by controlling current in the rotor.
                      >
                      > Here's more detail:
                      > http://www.autosite.com/garage/subsys/bachargs.asp
                      >
                      > To Ken: you don't select a diode to limit current. The alternator's
                      > regulator handles that. However, I doubt your current alternator is
                      > going to last long charging two batteries, especially when you are
                      > adding a load like those lights.
                      >
                      > Why not just find a larger alternator that will fit? And then do the
                      > same for the main battery?
                      >
                      > Alien Steve
                      >
                      > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > ...
                      > > That said, your altinaotr will generate voltage based on speed and
                      > > yoru voltage regulator will only pass what is needed. Since you
                      > > probably can charge the battery at idle, high RPM is time spend not
                      > > using the generated power. And by the looks of your photos, that
                      > > does not idle very often.
                      > >
                      > > Ergo, you should be able to see much higher voltages as the motor RPM
                      > > increases and with the higher voltages, you should be able to deliver
                      > > higher watts.
                      > >
                      > > Since the voltage regulator is designed to limit voltage to the
                      > > battery at somewhere around 14.7 volts, it is cutting off the power
                      > > most of the time.
                      > >
                      > > The trick would be to run unfettered at the higher voltages and pull
                      > > off what you can.
                      > >
                      > > A multi stage voltage regulator might allow you to let the voltage
                      > > run up to 30 volts and then use that to charge the battery.
                      > >
                      > > Also, you don't really need all 300 watts. If you are getting a few
                      > > hours of run time, charging with 150 watts would increase your time
                      > > considderably.
                      > ...
                    • Dave Mucha
                      Ok, I ll be the first to admit I don t know how the alternator works, but it seems that speed of rotation and energy used to create rotation should equal
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 2, 2004
                        Ok, I'll be the first to admit I don't know how the alternator works,
                        but it seems that speed of rotation and energy used to create
                        rotation should equal energy out.

                        So, either the unit uses some hp at idle and some fraction thereof at
                        high RPM, or something else is at play.

                        If the alternator can power a typical vehicle at idle, then the
                        available power at 3x that rpm should offer 3x that power.

                        The voltage regulator would seem to limit the voltage output. so
                        that if the alternator output at 700 RPM is 15 volts, the it would go
                        to logic that 45 volts would be possible at 2,100 RPM.

                        If the unit were to use 1hp of motor power at idle, then the total
                        energy at high RPM should be 3x that at idle ?

                        I am only speculating, but it seems that the goal is to limit voltage
                        to 15volts or less regardless of RPM. If watts followed RPM, then
                        the delivered amps would ramp with RPM.

                        I am wondering if the accepted thinking is to limit voltage to the
                        level needed to charge the battery, and not to pull as much power as
                        possible.


                        I mean that it takes something along the lines of 11 hp to keep a
                        luxury car moving at 55 mph, but the car has a 350 hp engine.
                        Similarly, the maximum domestic car has a watt load of all lights,
                        radio and ignition, so if the generating loop can supply that at
                        idle, it seems to follow that the availabe power at high RPM would be
                        much greater.

                        Of course, I may be missing something but hopefully, someone will
                        point out where I am going wrong.

                        Dave
                      • Roy J. Tellason
                        ... Would this by any chance have been a battery that sat over the winter without being maintained at full charge? That was the reason I used to sell so darn
                        Message 11 of 24 , Apr 2, 2004
                          On Friday 02 April 2004 02:57 pm, manifold wrote:
                          > Motorcycle regulator/alternator sets are a little more primitive. The
                          > end of the crankshaft has the alternator rotor attached to it which is
                          > a set of permanent magnets. There is a three phase stator around it
                          > and the regulator schematics that I have seen use SCRs to control the
                          > pulse times to the battery.
                          >
                          > I assume it is a phase angle triggered circuit but I am not sure where
                          > the current limiting comes from. I do know that I have burned up a few
                          > stators on various motorcycles usually because the regulator
                          > overcharged the battery and it dried it out within a few months. After
                          > replaceing the water in the battery and push starting it for a few
                          > weeks, gosh, the stator was bad. I rewound it and it worked. Twice.

                          Would this by any chance have been a battery that sat over the winter without
                          being maintained at full charge? That was the reason I used to sell so darn
                          many of the things each spring, along with garden tractor batteries, and
                          trolling motor batteries, though not all at the same time...

                          > I would go ahead and try connecting the batteries the same way that RV
                          > batteries are connected and see if it works. Do RV's use a simple
                          > diode to isolate the systems?

                          An isolator is actually two diodes, common anode connection to the output of
                          the alternator, and the cathodes going to each battery.

                          > It probably will be fine and the secondary battery will get some charge from
                          > the engine alternator and it will not burn up because you keep water in your
                          > batteries :)

                          Maybe, depending on how much of the time that alternator is expected to
                          deliver power. They do get hot, and are probably not rated to put out 100%
                          of the time.
                        • Roy J. Tellason
                          ... Yeah, up to a point, but... ... Available power? Yeah. ... Why do you assume that as RPMs go up the _voltage_ goes up too? ... Not necessarily. ... To
                          Message 12 of 24 , Apr 2, 2004
                            On Friday 02 April 2004 09:16 pm, Dave Mucha wrote:
                            > Ok, I'll be the first to admit I don't know how the alternator works,
                            > but it seems that speed of rotation and energy used to create
                            > rotation should equal energy out.

                            Yeah, up to a point, but...

                            > So, either the unit uses some hp at idle and some fraction thereof at
                            > high RPM, or something else is at play.
                            >
                            > If the alternator can power a typical vehicle at idle, then the
                            > available power at 3x that rpm should offer 3x that power.

                            Available power? Yeah.

                            > The voltage regulator would seem to limit the voltage output. so
                            > that if the alternator output at 700 RPM is 15 volts, the it would go
                            > to logic that 45 volts would be possible at 2,100 RPM.

                            Why do you assume that as RPMs go up the _voltage_ goes up too?

                            > If the unit were to use 1hp of motor power at idle, then the total
                            > energy at high RPM should be 3x that at idle ?

                            Not necessarily.

                            > I am only speculating, but it seems that the goal is to limit voltage
                            > to 15volts or less regardless of RPM. If watts followed RPM, then
                            > the delivered amps would ramp with RPM.

                            To some extent this is true. I've had a number of cars with ammeters in them,
                            and right after you start up it is fairly common to see that meter swing a
                            little further over when you were giving it some gas. This was only right
                            after you started it, and did moderate pretty quickly as the battery was
                            brought back to full charge.

                            > I am wondering if the accepted thinking is to limit voltage to the
                            > level needed to charge the battery, and not to pull as much power as
                            > possible.

                            The vehicles in question were all Chrysler products. These had three
                            terminals on the alternator, plus ground. One was the output, and was tied
                            to the ignition circuit (and therefore to the battery when the switch was
                            on). The other two were the field coil, and were fed varying amounts of
                            power at a varying duty cycle as determined by the voltage regulator. The
                            regulator was a three-terminal device as well, one of which was tied to the
                            ignition circuit to monitor the battery voltage, and the other of which fed
                            the field coil terminal of the alternator.

                            I don't know how they did it in vehicles with idiot lights or in those setups
                            where the regulator is inside the alternator, which seems to be pretty
                            common with GM products and probably some others.

                            > I mean that it takes something along the lines of 11 hp to keep a
                            > luxury car moving at 55 mph, but the car has a 350 hp engine.
                            > Similarly, the maximum domestic car has a watt load of all lights,
                            > radio and ignition, so if the generating loop can supply that at
                            > idle, it seems to follow that the availabe power at high RPM would be
                            > much greater.

                            Yeah, it's _possible_ to get an alternator to kick out much more power when
                            it's needed, but I doubt that this happens much of the time.

                            > Of course, I may be missing something but hopefully, someone will
                            > point out where I am going wrong.

                            Hope this helps some.
                          • Stefan Trethan
                            correct.... when i have headlights and ventilation on in my car at idle the voltage drops to 13V or so. The field wind in the rotor is then on full bore.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Apr 2, 2004
                              correct....

                              when i have headlights and ventilation on in my car at idle the voltage
                              drops to 13V or so.
                              The field wind in the rotor is then on full bore.

                              slightly more rpm and all is fine... 15V when cold..

                              when running on high rpm the field wind will nearly be off....

                              you should not remove the regulator and connect field to full on,
                              because then the power will be too big at rpm (resistive losses)
                              and your alternator will burn.

                              (also your battery will boil a hole in the car)


                              ST


                              (Note: if you have trouble with the car electrics build a expanded scale
                              voltmeter that plugs into the cigarette lighter plug. good to know the
                              voltage...)

                              On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 02:16:00 -0000, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...>
                              wrote:

                              >
                              > Ok, I'll be the first to admit I don't know how the alternator works,
                              > but it seems that speed of rotation and energy used to create
                              > rotation should equal energy out.
                              >
                              > So, either the unit uses some hp at idle and some fraction thereof at
                              > high RPM, or something else is at play.
                              >
                              > If the alternator can power a typical vehicle at idle, then the
                              > available power at 3x that rpm should offer 3x that power.
                              >
                              > The voltage regulator would seem to limit the voltage output. so
                              > that if the alternator output at 700 RPM is 15 volts, the it would go
                              > to logic that 45 volts would be possible at 2,100 RPM.
                              >
                              > If the unit were to use 1hp of motor power at idle, then the total
                              > energy at high RPM should be 3x that at idle ?
                              >
                              > I am only speculating, but it seems that the goal is to limit voltage
                              > to 15volts or less regardless of RPM. If watts followed RPM, then
                              > the delivered amps would ramp with RPM.
                              >
                              > I am wondering if the accepted thinking is to limit voltage to the
                              > level needed to charge the battery, and not to pull as much power as
                              > possible.
                              >
                              >
                              > I mean that it takes something along the lines of 11 hp to keep a
                              > luxury car moving at 55 mph, but the car has a 350 hp engine.
                              > Similarly, the maximum domestic car has a watt load of all lights,
                              > radio and ignition, so if the generating loop can supply that at
                              > idle, it seems to follow that the availabe power at high RPM would be
                              > much greater.
                              >
                              > Of course, I may be missing something but hopefully, someone will
                              > point out where I am going wrong.
                              >
                              > Dave
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                            • Dave Mucha
                              ... voltage ... http://www.autosite.com/garage/subsys/bachar01.asp#Chap1 ======================================================== All charging systems use the
                              Message 14 of 24 , Apr 3, 2004
                                --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
                                <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
                                > correct....
                                >
                                > when i have headlights and ventilation on in my car at idle the
                                voltage
                                > drops to 13V or so.
                                > The field wind in the rotor is then on full bore.
                                >
                                > slightly more rpm and all is fine... 15V when cold..
                                >
                                > when running on high rpm the field wind will nearly be off....
                                >
                                > you should not remove the regulator and connect field to full on,
                                > because then the power will be too big at rpm (resistive losses)
                                > and your alternator will burn.
                                >
                                > (also your battery will boil a hole in the car)



                                http://www.autosite.com/garage/subsys/bachar01.asp#Chap1
                                ========================================================
                                "All charging systems use the principle of electromagnetic induction
                                to generate electrical power. Electromagnetic principle states that a
                                voltage will be produced if motion between a conductor and a magnetic
                                field occurs. The amount of voltage produced is affected by:

                                #1 The speed at which the conductor passes through the magnetic
                                field.
                                #2 The strength of the magnetic field.
                                #3 The number of conductors passing through the magnetic field. "
                                =================================================================


                                From this we can establish that RPM varies so #1 does vary.
                                #2 may be a function of the voltage regulator, or it may be a fixed
                                value.
                                #3 is a constant on any given device.


                                The whole idea is that the alternator spun at some fixed ratio to the
                                motor. Lower motor RPM= lower alternator RPM = lower output voltage.

                                The voltage regulator is designed to maintain a voltage very close to
                                a constant. Remove the regulator and you have nothing more than
                                coils rotating in a housing. Adding the electrical field to the
                                windings and you then have coils rotating in a magnetic field and
                                that will generate voltage in proportion to RPM.

                                More RPM = More voltage

                                I totally agree that if one allows the voltage to increase, the
                                battery will boil.

                                Also, the coils rotating in the magnetic field can be used as a brake
                                or at least a major drag on the motor.

                                If the alternator can produce 100watts at 12 volts, we can deduce
                                that we are seeing 8.33 amps.

                                If the alternator were to spin 3x is seems that voltage should
                                increase 3x (without being regulated to a constant voltage) so that
                                the alternator would deliver a higher value, I assume it is linear.

                                So a motor at idle around 700 RPM vs a motor at 2,100 RPM would drive
                                the alternator to possibly 36 volts ? Same 8.33 amps would yeild 300
                                watts.

                                Figure volts times amps / 746 = hp and you rob the motor of roughly 5
                                hp.

                                Not enough to stall the motor, but enough to know the lights are on.

                                Like I said before, I don't know enough about alternators and it
                                *may* be the voltage regulator alters the magnetic field so as to
                                maintain the voltage.

                                But unless there is something else going on, the principal of faster
                                = more would stand.

                                How to use 36 volts on 12 volt lights is another matter.

                                Dave
                              • Steve
                                ... wrote: ... Well, that -is- what we ve been saying. The strength of the magnetic field is changed by changing the current in the rotor. Do you understand
                                Message 15 of 24 , Apr 3, 2004
                                  --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
                                  wrote:

                                  ...
                                  > Like I said before, I don't know enough about alternators and it
                                  > *may* be the voltage regulator alters the magnetic field so as to
                                  > maintain the voltage.

                                  Well, that -is- what we've been saying. The strength of the magnetic
                                  field is changed by changing the current in the rotor.

                                  Do you understand that there is no permanent magnet in a standard
                                  vehicle alternator? And that the power is -not- drawn from the rotor?
                                  Power is drawn from 3 phases of coils in the stator.

                                  The magnetic field is created in the rotor by a current through a
                                  winding on it. Rotor spins, generates 3 phases of current/voltage in
                                  the stator windings. Goes through 3 phase rectifier.

                                  Regulator has basically three limits: a max voltage out, max current
                                  out, and a max current into the rotor winding. The max current into
                                  the rotor winding limits power available at low RPMs. If it did not
                                  have this limit, it would likely burn up the rotor slip rings and
                                  windings. As for max current out, alternators are designed with a duty
                                  cycle in mind. As normally they must put out a lot more current when
                                  the vehicle is first started to recharge the battery.

                                  Alien Steve
                                • Stefan Trethan
                                  ... DEFINITELY. all common car alternators (ac) i have seen use a field coil in the rotor. the voltage regulator output variable is the current through this
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Apr 3, 2004
                                    > Like I said before, I don't know enough about alternators and it
                                    > *may* be the voltage regulator alters the magnetic field so as to
                                    > maintain the voltage.

                                    DEFINITELY.

                                    all common car alternators (ac) i have seen use a field coil in the rotor.
                                    the voltage regulator output variable is the current through this coil.

                                    (the voltage regulator does not work like a linear regulator or so in the
                                    power lines,
                                    it is only connected to the alternator output for sensing - there is no
                                    voltage drop or
                                    so across the regulator)

                                    >
                                    > But unless there is something else going on, the principal of faster
                                    > = more would stand.


                                    principle seems correct, you could draw more watts, but not more ampere.
                                    i too dunno how to use tha additional volts...

                                    However, this is a motorcycle generator, which seems entirely different.

                                    It has permanent magnets, so constant field.
                                    the voltage (or battery charge) is regulated via phase angle control of
                                    the alternator
                                    main output. (this means the current is conntrolled and the battery acts
                                    as buffer).

                                    I see two possibilities to charge the big battery:

                                    version a)

                                    a current regulator directing a certain, fixed amount of current from the
                                    small battery to the big
                                    battery, this current would go through the existing regulator also of
                                    course.

                                    version b)

                                    find the wires from the generator, before the existing regulator, and add
                                    a second regulator, which
                                    charges the big battery at a low maximum rate (2A or so).
                                    you maybe could use another part of the waveform than the existing
                                    regulator and thus decrease the
                                    resisitive losses / increase useable power without more heating of the
                                    alternator.

                                    Version B would be technically better, but much more sophisticated than
                                    version A.
                                    I would try version b, and most likely have a look if i can add safety
                                    things like
                                    overtemperature protection of the alternator.
                                    For a beginner i would recommend version A, a current limiting transistor
                                    is not that hard to
                                    build and it can be debugged without a scope...

                                    Stefan


                                    >
                                    > How to use 36 volts on 12 volt lights is another matter.
                                    >
                                    > Dave
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • Stefan Trethan
                                    ... correct for CAR, seems in a motorcycle it is permanent magnets and scr phase angle control of main current. the buggy in question has a motorcycle engine.
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Apr 3, 2004
                                      > Well, that -is- what we've been saying. The strength of the magnetic
                                      > field is changed by changing the current in the rotor.
                                      >
                                      > Do you understand that there is no permanent magnet in a standard
                                      > vehicle alternator? And that the power is -not- drawn from the rotor?
                                      > Power is drawn from 3 phases of coils in the stator.
                                      >
                                      > Alien Steve
                                      >
                                      >

                                      correct for CAR,

                                      seems in a motorcycle it is permanent magnets and scr phase angle control
                                      of main current.

                                      the buggy in question has a motorcycle engine.

                                      ST
                                    • MAX Alarm
                                      O.K. guys..let me put some lights on youre discusion...myne yob is car electric..if we speak about normal alternator produced somewhere about 1990-1998...there
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Apr 3, 2004
                                        O.K. guys..let me put some lights on youre discusion...myne yob is car electric..if we speak about normal alternator produced somewhere about 1990-1998...there is voltage regulator inside alternator...you have windings on stator directly conected on set of diodes and this are for charging baterys..
                                        another windings are on rotor ..rotor wind.is drived via voltage regulator  on most cars regulation is via pulse duration because resistance of rotor are  2-6 ohm..
                                        so rotor are polarised and you have strong mag.field ..if voltage start rising about 14.6 regulator shut off curent to rotor..when vol.drop below 12.9  it switch rotor again..and all this is work in cycles..
                                        if youre car have abs / air cond. this is treshold (14.3) on most european car..
                                        older car without all this work 12.8-13.5...
                                         
                                        another important stuff related to charging is CURENT but again voltage regulator adjust polarisation on rotor wind...
                                         
                                         
                                        sory for my bad english but I hope I help you...
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Steve
                                        Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 3:09 PM
                                        Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Got Lights? alternator and voltage regulator

                                        --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
                                        wrote:

                                        ...
                                        > Like I said before, I don't know enough about alternators and it
                                        > *may* be the voltage regulator alters the magnetic field so as to
                                        > maintain the voltage.

                                        Well, that -is- what we've been saying. The strength of the magnetic
                                        field is changed by changing the current in the rotor.

                                        Do you understand that there is no permanent magnet in a standard
                                        vehicle alternator? And that the power is -not- drawn from the rotor?
                                        Power is drawn from 3 phases of coils in the stator.

                                        The magnetic field is created in the rotor by a current through a
                                        winding on it. Rotor spins, generates 3 phases of current/voltage in
                                        the stator windings. Goes through 3 phase rectifier.

                                        Regulator has basically three limits: a max voltage out, max current
                                        out, and a max current into the rotor winding. The max current into
                                        the rotor winding limits power available at low RPMs. If it did not
                                        have this limit, it would likely burn up the rotor slip rings and
                                        windings. As for max current out, alternators are designed with a duty
                                        cycle in mind. As normally they must put out a lot more current when
                                        the vehicle is first started to recharge the battery.

                                        Alien Steve

                                      • Stefan Trethan
                                        On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 15:23:15 +0200, MAX Alarm ... it s the same as we are saying it all time. of course you could also control the
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Apr 3, 2004
                                          On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 15:23:15 +0200, MAX Alarm <stjepan.vukic@...>
                                          wrote:

                                          > O.K. guys..let me put some lights on youre discusion...myne yob is car
                                          > electric..if we speak about normal alternator produced somewhere about
                                          > 1990-1998...there is voltage regulator inside alternator...you have
                                          > windings on stator directly conected on set of diodes and this are for
                                          > charging baterys..
                                          > another windings are on rotor ..rotor wind.is drived via voltage
                                          > regulator on most cars regulation is via pulse duration because
                                          > resistance of rotor are 2-6 ohm..
                                          > so rotor are polarised and you have strong mag.field ..if voltage start
                                          > rising about 14.6 regulator shut off curent to rotor..when vol.drop
                                          > below 12.9 it switch rotor again..and all this is work in cycles..
                                          > if youre car have abs / air cond. this is treshold (14.3) on most
                                          > european car..
                                          > older car without all this work 12.8-13.5...
                                          >
                                          > another important stuff related to charging is CURENT but again voltage
                                          > regulator adjust polarisation on rotor wind...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > sory for my bad english but I hope I help you...


                                          it's the same as we are saying it all time.
                                          of course you could also control the current in the field wind linear, not
                                          pulse width.

                                          ST
                                        • Dave Mucha
                                          ... ... rotor? ... I do realize that the alternator is contorlled by a variable magnetic field and that the generally accepted limits of such
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Apr 3, 2004
                                            --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha"
                                            <dave_mucha@y...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            >
                                            > ...
                                            > > Like I said before, I don't know enough about alternators and it
                                            > > *may* be the voltage regulator alters the magnetic field so as to
                                            > > maintain the voltage.
                                            >
                                            > Well, that -is- what we've been saying. The strength of the magnetic
                                            > field is changed by changing the current in the rotor.
                                            >
                                            > Do you understand that there is no permanent magnet in a standard
                                            > vehicle alternator? And that the power is -not- drawn from the
                                            rotor?
                                            > Power is drawn from 3 phases of coils in the stator.
                                            >
                                            > The magnetic field is created in the rotor by a current through a
                                            > winding on it. Rotor spins, generates 3 phases of current/voltage in
                                            > the stator windings. Goes through 3 phase rectifier.


                                            I do realize that the alternator is contorlled by a variable magnetic
                                            field and that the generally accepted limits of such a device is left
                                            to the manufactures data sheets, but.....

                                            We are trying to figure a way to do something off the mainstream.

                                            If we agree that amps will have some simple limit, but voltage can
                                            vary, it may be possible to get a lot more watts from an alternator
                                            than one would ever need for any common applications.

                                            One thing that comes to mind is 'fooling' the VR by loading it to
                                            maintain something less than it's upper limit. That would allow it
                                            to deliver peak power, and I assume more power, at higher revolutions.

                                            Alternatly, if one were to use a higher voltage and get higher watts,
                                            then we could look at what would be needed to deliver that as uasable
                                            current at a usable voltage.

                                            IF, (big IF) we could get the alternator to deliver 36volts at the
                                            rated amps, it would be then require handling that higher load and
                                            delivering it at 12 volts.

                                            Dave
                                          • Steve
                                            ... control ... Ah... I d missed that. Alien Steve
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Apr 3, 2004
                                              --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
                                              <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > Well, that -is- what we've been saying. The strength of the magnetic
                                              > > field is changed by changing the current in the rotor.
                                              ...
                                              > correct for CAR,
                                              >
                                              > seems in a motorcycle it is permanent magnets and scr phase angle
                                              control
                                              > of main current.
                                              >
                                              > the buggy in question has a motorcycle engine.

                                              Ah... I'd missed that.

                                              Alien Steve
                                            • MAX Alarm
                                              again me..(car electric) if I need from same alternator bigest voltage I should take another stator(more windings) another rotor(resistance 8-12 ohm) it means
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Apr 3, 2004
                                                again me..(car electric) if I need from same alternator bigest voltage I should take another stator(more windings) another rotor(resistance 8-12 ohm) it means more wind.. and another regulator for higher volt....some years ago I was thinking that similar problem will be solved if yust replace VR but when I put 28 V VR max voltage is about 18-20..so for higher voltage you will need more windings( of course smaler diameter of wires) because you always will have about 300W from this source..it means if you need higher volt you will be less in curent..absolute power from this source ( alternator) depends how big is alternator ...that is from myne praxis ( last 10 years)..
                                                 
                                                but for practice ..you can play with VR so use wire for power up VR and measure Voltage on it..you can put some resistors in series with sensitive pin on VR...
                                                 
                                                when you pull out Vr from alternator you will see some contact directly on rectifier(diodes plate) this is sensitiv input for VR..so try ...play with voltage divider..and you will see what is max.voltage from youre alternator...TAKE care that screws are GROUND conection for VR so put extra wire for GROUND...
                                                 
                                                on one kawasaki motorcycles I measure 32Vdc when VR was dead..(and batery...) 
                                                 
                                                do make this experiment when car is conected to alternator  because some car electronic realy dont like any power more than 14vdc...
                                                 
                                                If you see gray smoke from alt..it means you fuck up something..buy anoter one and play again...
                                                 
                                                ..Regards from Croatia 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 6:10 PM
                                                Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Got Lights? alternator and voltage regulator

                                                --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...>
                                                wrote:
                                                > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha"
                                                <dave_mucha@y...>
                                                > wrote:
                                                >
                                                > ...
                                                > > Like I said before, I don't know enough about alternators and it
                                                > > *may* be the voltage regulator alters the magnetic field so as to
                                                > > maintain the voltage.
                                                >
                                                > Well, that -is- what we've been saying. The strength of the magnetic
                                                > field is changed by changing the current in the rotor.
                                                >
                                                > Do you understand that there is no permanent magnet in a standard
                                                > vehicle alternator? And that the power is -not- drawn from the
                                                rotor?
                                                > Power is drawn from 3 phases of coils in the stator.
                                                >
                                                > The magnetic field is created in the rotor by a current through a
                                                > winding on it. Rotor spins, generates 3 phases of current/voltage in
                                                > the stator windings. Goes through 3 phase rectifier.


                                                I do realize that the alternator is contorlled by a variable magnetic
                                                field and that the generally accepted limits of such a device is left
                                                to the manufactures data sheets, but.....

                                                We are trying to figure a way to do something off the mainstream.

                                                If we agree that amps will have some simple limit, but voltage can
                                                vary, it may be possible to get a lot more watts from an alternator
                                                than one would ever need for any common applications.

                                                One thing that comes to mind is 'fooling' the VR by loading it to
                                                maintain something less than it's upper limit.  That would allow it
                                                to deliver peak power, and I assume more power, at higher revolutions.

                                                Alternatly, if one were to use a higher voltage and get higher watts,
                                                then we could look at what would be needed to deliver that as uasable
                                                current at a usable voltage.

                                                IF, (big IF) we could get the alternator to deliver 36volts at the
                                                rated amps, it would be then require handling that higher load and
                                                delivering it at 12 volts.

                                                Dave


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