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Bil Herd talks 6502 and C128 design on Hackaday.com

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  • Steve Greenfield
    Designing the 6502 processor and PLA/PAL chips Programmable Logic I – PLA/PAL Programmable Logic I – PLA/PAL Yeah I am still a little pissed that the
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 1, 2014
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      Designing the 6502 processor and PLA/PAL chips

      image
      Programmable Logic I – PLA/PAL
      Yeah I am still a little pissed that the competition is still around and we aren't, and by “we” I mean Commodore Business Machines (CBM). It was Commodo...
      Preview by Yahoo

      Part II about PLA/PAL design



      The real story of hacking together the Commodore 128

      image
      Guest Post: The Real Story of Hacking Together the Co...
      The most popular computer ever sold to-date, the Commodore C-64, sold 27 Million units total back in the 1980’s.  Little is left to show of those times, the...
      Preview by Yahoo


      image
      Bil Herd
      Computer Design Engineer at Commodore Business Machines back in the '80s. Still digging the whole electron thing after all these years.
      Preview by Yahoo

      I still have an SX64, and I have a C64DTV that is meant to become a Commodore 64 laptop.


       
      Steve Greenfield AE7HD
      http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenjgreenfield
    • Chris Tofu
      CBM, a misnomer, might still be around if they actually produced machines for the business world. Or at least that didn t convey that toy/game machine feel.
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 1, 2014
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        CBM, a misnomer, might still be around if they actually produced machines for the business world. Or at least that didn't convey that toy/game machine feel.


        ------------------------------
        On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 9:04 AM PDT Steve Greenfield alienrelics@... [Electronics_101] wrote:

        >Designing the 6502 processor and PLA/PAL chips
        >
        >Programmable Logic I – PLA/PAL
        >
        >
        > Programmable Logic I – PLA/PAL
        >Yeah I am still a little pissed that the competition is still around and we aren't, and by “we” I mean Commodore Business Machines (CBM). It was Commodo...
        >View on hackaday.com Preview by Yahoo
        >
        >Part II about PLA/PAL design
        >
        >Programmable Logic II - CPL
        >
        >
        > Programmable Logic II - CPL
        >There is a wide assortment of cheap development (dev) boards for Complex Programmable Logic Devices (CPLD), the smaller cousin of the Field Programm...
        >View on hackaday.com Preview by Yahoo
        >
        >
        >The real story of hacking together the Commodore 128
        >
        >Guest Post: The Real Story of Hacking Together the Commodore C128
        >
        >
        > Guest Post: The Real Story of Hacking Together the Co...
        >The most popular computer ever sold to-date, the Commodore C-64, sold 27 Million units total back in the 1980’s.  Little is left to show of those times, the...
        >View on hackaday.com Preview by Yahoo
        >
        >
        >Bil Herd
        >
        >
        > Bil Herd
        >Computer Design Engineer at Commodore Business Machines back in the '80s. Still digging the whole electron thing after all these years.
        >View on hackaday.com Preview by Yahoo
        >
        >I still have an SX64, and I have a C64DTV that is meant to become a Commodore 64 laptop.
        >
        >

        >Steve Greenfield AE7HD
        >http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenjgreenfield
      • alienrelics
        Oh, it was bad marketing, for sure. The Amiga was a fantastic computer, but marketing stunk. It didn t help that Medhi Ali and Irving Gould gutted the company.
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 1, 2014
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          Oh, it was bad marketing, for sure. The Amiga was a fantastic computer, but marketing stunk.

          It didn't help that Medhi Ali and Irving Gould gutted the company.

          Steve Greenfield AE7HD
        • Jong Kung
          ... Bad marketing ???!!!!! One business / technology analyst said something like this : Apple is the only modern technology company that had 10 year lead (the
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 2, 2014
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            >> Oh, it was bad marketing, for sure.

            Bad marketing ???!!!!!

            One business / technology analyst said something like this :

               Apple is the only modern technology company that had 10 year lead (the windowing PC) over the competitor and still manage to lose the lead. 

            That's bad marketing !!!!  Apple is only alive because the customers base is rabid (pro apple) - not because apple did anything right. 

            Ok... They did make a great user interface.  But that's about it. 


            Jong 


            On Jul 1, 2014, at 10:04 PM, "alienrelics@... [Electronics_101]" <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            Oh, it was bad marketing, for sure. The Amiga was a fantastic computer, but marketing stunk.

            It didn't help that Medhi Ali and Irving Gould gutted the company.

            Steve Greenfield AE7HD
          • Dave C
            ... The term ôMonday morning quarterbackö comes to mind. ItÆs easy to criticize from a distance or with the perspective of time. Dave
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 2, 2014
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              >> Oh, it was bad marketing, for sure.

              Bad marketing ???!!!!!

              One business / technology analyst said something like this :

              Apple is the only modern technology company that had 10 year lead (the windowing PC) over the competitor and still manage to lose the lead. 

              That's bad marketing !!!!  Apple is only alive because the customers base is rabid (pro apple) - not because apple did anything right. 

              Ok... They did make a great user interface.  But that's about it. 

              Jong

              The term “Monday morning quarterback” comes to mind. 

              It’s easy to criticize from a distance or with the perspective of time. 

              Dave




            • Dave Neale
              I disagree, Apple at least kept a linear address space. The IBM implementation of the PC has kept us all captive in an abortion of what could have been a
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 2, 2014
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                I disagree, Apple at least kept a linear address space. The IBM implementation of the PC has kept us all captive in an abortion of what could have been a somewhat reasonable machine. The Apple solution is at least pure. MY opinion, not necessarily shared by others – but I have been designing micro based systems for 40 years ( my first was a 6800 with a massive 16K static RAM and a digital tape drive)

                 

                From: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com]
                Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 18:53
                To: Electronics101
                Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Bil Herd talks 6502 and C128 design on Hackaday.com

                 

                 

                >> Oh, it was bad marketing, for sure.

                 

                Bad marketing ???!!!!!

                 

                One business / technology analyst said something like this :

                 

                Apple is the only modern technology company that had 10 year lead (the windowing PC) over the competitor and still manage to lose the lead. 

                 

                That's bad marketing !!!!  Apple is only alive because the customers base is rabid (pro apple) - not because apple did anything right. 

                 

                Ok... They did make a great user interface.  But that's about it. 

                 

                Jong

                 

                The term “Monday morning quarterback” comes to mind. 

                 

                It’s easy to criticize from a distance or with the perspective of time. 

                 

                Dave



                 

              • jongkung01
                Apple and IBM didn t do anything. They just happened to select 6502 (very popular) and 8088 (became popular). If anything it was intel s decision to be
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 2, 2014
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                  Apple and IBM didn't do anything. They just happened to select 6502 (very popular) and 8088 (became popular). 

                  If anything it was intel's decision to be aggressive in technology advancements that IBM / M$ benefited from. 

                  In the end I was talking about marketing - not so much about technology. 


                  Jong



                  On Jul 2, 2014, at 1:56 PM, "'Dave Neale' dave@... [Electronics_101]" <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  I disagree, Apple at least kept a linear address space. The IBM implementation of the PC has kept us all captive in an abortion of what could have been a somewhat reasonable machine. The Apple solution is at least pure. MY opinion, not necessarily shared by others – but I have been designing micro based systems for 40 years ( my first was a 6800 with a massive 16K static RAM and a digital tape drive)

                   

                  From: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com]
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 18:53
                  To: Electronics101
                  Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Bil Herd talks 6502 and C128 design on Hackaday.com

                   

                   

                  >> Oh, it was bad marketing, for sure.

                   

                  Bad marketing ???!!!!!

                   

                  One business / technology analyst said something like this :

                   

                  Apple is the only modern technology company that had 10 year lead (the windowing PC) over the competitor and still manage to lose the lead. 

                   

                  That's bad marketing !!!!  Apple is only alive because the customers base is rabid (pro apple) - not because apple did anything right. 

                   

                  Ok... They did make a great user interface.  But that's about it. 

                   

                  Jong

                   

                  The term “Monday morning quarterback” comes to mind. 

                   

                  It’s easy to criticize from a distance or with the perspective of time. 

                   

                  Dave



                   

                • lt_wright_flg
                  The PC had 2 advantages over Apple in 1981 when the PC was introduced. 1. the PC had the label IBM on the front and 2. the PC gave customers a machine that
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 3, 2014
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                    The PC had 2 advantages over Apple in 1981 when the PC was introduced.  1. the PC had the label "IBM" on the front and 2. the PC gave customers a machine that could do a lot (640k w/16 bit processor vs Apple II 48 k 6502 little 8 bitter).  I grew up with the 6502, but I was doing little 8 bit stuff.

                    The IBM name meant computers to the common Joe.  Apple meant something to eat.  Apple meant much more to the guy playing.

                    Apply with the Mac clearly had a superior machine even in 1984 when the Mac came out, but the ball was rolling for IBMs.  Then came the clones and prices fell, IBM tried to re-take the market with it's PS2, but the clone manuf found a way to make things and make them for much less...mainly chip sets (put lots of functionality in one chip...what cost $50 now cost $3).

                    And every one was make applications for the PC and few for the Mac.  What would one buy???

                    Things have changed.  About every thing made for PC also runs on a Mac.

                    Now if one looks at what Apple has given the common Joe vs IBM and the clones Apple has contributed much more.  Real smart phones is just one example.  Where would the cell phone be today if not for the iPhone.

                    Yes, hind site is always 20/20, hi.

                    73, ron, n9ee/r
                  • rtstofer
                    I remember when the first MAC showed up at one of the local stores. I had been writing a TON of code for my Altair 8800 and CompuPro Z80 plus selling code for
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 4, 2014
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                      I remember when the first MAC showed up at one of the local stores.  I had been writing a TON of code for my Altair 8800 and CompuPro Z80 plus selling code for adding hard drives to Apple IIs.  I wanted to write code for the MAC.

                       

                      Nope!  I would have to buy a Lisa machine, available only to qualified vendors or whatever, if I wanted to be able to do something with the MAC.

                       

                      That closed architecture has kept me away from MACs for 30 years.  I actively avoid Apple products.

                       

                      When IBM introduced the PC, it was a mess.  But it was open and I could write whatever code I wished.  The machine was seriously slow, far slower than my 6 MHz Z80 (the CompuPro that is still sitting under my desk) so I would write the code on the Z80 and port it over to the IBM.  Things changed with the introduction of the PC AT and once we got to the 486 class machines, we were on a roll.

                       

                      Richard

                       

                       


                       

                    • lt_wright_flg
                      I think being able to write code anyway you wanted and port to the DOS and PC was a major reason we got so much junk for the PC. Gates and MS said do anything
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 5, 2014
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                        I think being able to write code anyway you wanted and port to the DOS and PC was a major reason we got so much junk for the PC.

                        Gates and MS said do anything you want and so many did and it lasted for over a decade and so many users got so frustrated with the PC.

                        Apple insisted one do things a certain way.  If you did not you could not get lic.  If you did the lic was free. 

                        Today those with Apple products are so satisfied.  We still have problems with the PC and Windows.

                        Software is easy.  Good software developers are hard to find.

                        73, ron, n9ee/r
                      • Jong Kung
                        ... Writing command line program is always super easier than writing window based programs. When I had an apple 2+ (command line computer) I wrote plenty of
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 5, 2014
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                          >> I think being able to write code anyway you wanted and port to the DOS and PC was a major reason we got so much junk for the PC.

                          Writing command line program is always super easier than writing window based programs. When I had an apple 2+ (command line computer) I wrote plenty of code at home. And later when I got my PC, I did so again.

                          You can argue as written by the same person, it is just as junky.

                          =====

                          >> Gates and MS said do anything you want and so many did and it lasted for over a decade and so many users got so frustrated with the PC.

                          >> Apple insisted one do things a certain way. If you did not you could not get lic. If you did the lic was free.

                          I don't know what this license is all about. I know anybody can write and sell code for the PC (before and after the windows OS). Is there some restriction on selling code written for the Mac ?


                          Jong


                          On Jul 5, 2014, at 4:28 AM, "mccrpt@... [Electronics_101]" <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                          > I think being able to write code anyway you wanted and port to the DOS and PC was a major reason we got so much junk for the PC.
                          >
                          > Gates and MS said do anything you want and so many did and it lasted for over a decade and so many users got so frustrated with the PC.
                          >
                          > Apple insisted one do things a certain way. If you did not you could not get lic. If you did the lic was free.
                        • rtstofer
                          I don t know what this license is all about. I know anybody can write and sell code for the PC (before and after the windows OS). Is there some restriction on
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 5, 2014
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                            I don't know what this license is all about. I know anybody can write and sell code for the PC (before and after the windows OS). Is there some restriction on selling code written for the Mac ?


                            Jong

                             

                            When the MAC first came out, there were NO development tools available for the computer nor any information on the API.  OTOH, all of the 8080 and 8086 computers had assemblers and, a little later, higher level compilers.

                             

                            Apple didn't want hobbyists writing code for their computers.  They have changed over the years and the toolkit is available for iPad and iPhone but I never got over my first reaction.

                             

                            Microsoft realized that they couldn't write all of the applications that would run on a PC so they published the API.  To this day, there are applications I need that will never run under Linux or OS X.

                             

                            Richard

                             

                          • Dave C
                            ... MAC = Media Access Control address. Mac is short for Macintosh (the computer). FYI, Dave When the MAC first came out, à MAC = Media Access Control
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 5, 2014
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                              When the MAC first came out, 

                              MAC = Media Access Control address. 

                              Mac is short for Macintosh (the computer).

                              FYI,
                              Dave



                            • MrRlnansel .
                              The issue of software development with the original 128K Mac was simply that there wasn t enough *room* to host development tools and the application you were
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jul 5, 2014
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                                The issue of software development with the original 128K Mac was simply that there wasn't enough room to host development tools and the application you were developing. That's why the Lisa was the preferred host for Mac development. That changed not long after the 512K Fat Mac came out. By the time the SE and the Classic arrived it was an entirely reasonable proposition to develop code directly on the target machine.

                                -Bobby


                                On 6 July 2014 10:34, Dave C davec2468@... [Electronics_101] <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                 

                                When the MAC first came out, 

                                MAC = Media Access Control address. 

                                Mac is short for Macintosh (the computer).

                                FYI,
                                Dave




                              • bozito
                                This was almost exactly my experience except I was writing code for the VIC-20 and C-64 (and selling it under my business name, French Silk). I was disgusted
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jul 6, 2014
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                                  This was almost exactly my experience except I was writing code for the VIC-20 and C-64 (and selling it under my business name, French Silk).  I was disgusted with Apple and remain so after all these years.  They screwed the pooch by not making it easy and inexpensive for developers to write for their systems.  And I was always surprised at their screw-you attitude toward the garage start-up crowd, especially given their own roots.
                                • lt_wright_flg
                                  Yes the first Mac was so memory taxing with it s graphics. I was saying it was impractical. That was when a meg of memory was still expensive. Things have
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jul 6, 2014
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                                    Yes the first Mac was so memory taxing with it's graphics.  I was saying it was impractical.  That was when a meg of memory was still expensive.  Things have changed.

                                    The original Mac was closed for the most part.  Apple said if one even opened the case it voided the warranty.  A third part company made a hard drive that connected directly to the Mac's CPU buss and Steve Job's only response was well if you connect it the warranty would be voided.  Apple did sell an external HD for the Mac and then mounted one in side in their Classic.  Eventually all was expanded.

                                    This was surprising to many for with the Apple II it had a door one could open and insert 3rd party cards.  At the time of the PC introduction there were over 10,000 products for the Apple II.  Seems Apple did 180 deg turn with the Mac.  Maybe they were seeing what was going on with the junk for the PC they wanted to get a hold on things.  After all even if one buys an application for ones computer and it crashes it is the computer or OS fault.  I am sure Apple was wanting to keep things clean and have for the most part.

                                    One has to interface to the OS of a computer and to do so legally some sort of license/permission must be given.  Sure you can write your own application, I did with assembler and other software development tools for the PC, but to sell is another story.  The PC is rather open although we know there are guards in Windows to flag us if an application is not registered or approved.

                                    Apple has not been perfect by no means, but still better than the PC and Gates junk, but the PC is the most used standard in personal computers.

                                    73, ron, n9ee/r
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