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## Re: [Electronics_101] Re: Radio waves and EM transmission - atomic size

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• Yes, you re right.... I guess you read the Science Hobbyist page? There is also another misconception about radiation: many people (including professionals in
Message 1 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
There is one part of this post that is not quite right and it is a
common misconception. I ras across it only recently when someone asked
me how an atom can emit light of a wavelength much longer than the
atom is wide. It seems to violate all antenna theory.

Visible light is about 400nm or 4000Angstroms
Atomic radii are around 0.3 to 1 Angstom

So light is more than 3 orders of magnitude longer in wavelength than

>
> Light has a wavelength that is WAY smaller than any lumped-circuit
> can be. Note that its wavelength is of the order of the size of an atom.

> You can only create resonating circuits if its dimensions are of the
same
> order as the wavelength of the resonance frequency. So in short: NO,
> its not possible :)
>
> They do however create semiconducting devices that can be of the
> order of the wavelength of light, but that's not stuff for a hobbyist.
>
> I have however seen once an experiment that took a GHz signal
> through many stages of frequency doublers (these work using the
non-linearity
> of a certain diode for example) and finally send out the signal
through a parabolic
> antenna. They claimed (showing photographs) that in the dark a faint
visible
> glow was to be seen from supposedly visible light... Although the
magazine
> was ok, I never saw it anywhere reproduced. But you can try of
course.....
>
>         Albert

• ... Atomic particles and energies do not have to be limited to 3 dimmentions. One of the things that get s us (and everybody else) into trouble is putting
Message 2 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
> An electromagnetic wave
> consists of 3-dimensional fields that act and react on each other.

Atomic particles and energies do not have to be limited to 3
dimmentions.

One of the things that get's us (and everybody else) into trouble is
putting things into a nice neat easily understood compartment.

Very interesting stuff though.

Dave
• Unless anyone has proven that more than three spatial dimensions really exist (and upto now, no one has proven this), there are only three, despite all very
Message 3 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
> An electromagnetic wave
> consists of 3-dimensional fields that act and react on each other.

Atomic particles and energies do not have to be limited to 3
dimmentions.

One of the things that get's us (and everybody else) into trouble is
putting things into a nice neat easily understood compartment.

Very interesting stuff though.

Dave

• This all sounds like apples and oranges to me, your trying to apply laws that apply to electrons in antenna theory to photons which act much differently.. If I
Message 4 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004

This all sounds like apples and oranges to me, your trying to apply laws that apply to electrons in antenna theory to photons which act much differently..

If I remember , photons only follow wave theory sometimes, but not always.

Back to photons and electrons. Just because you emit a rf signal at the precise wavelength of the light spectrum, wont give you light. Because your not emitting photons, your emitting electrons.

My 2 cents.

-----Original Message-----
From: manifold [mailto:manifold_1@...]
Sent: January 31, 2004 03:17 PM
To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Radio waves and EM transmission - atomic size

There is one part of this post that is not quite right and it is a
common misconception. I ras across it only recently when someone asked
me how an atom can emit light of a wavelength much longer than the
atom is wide. It seems to violate all antenna theory.

Visible light is about 400nm or 4000Angstroms
Atomic radii are around 0.3 to 1 Angstom

So light is more than 3 orders of magnitude longer in wavelength than

>
> Light has a wavelength that is WAY smaller than any lumped-circuit
> can be. Note that its wavelength is of the order of the size of an atom.

> You can only create resonating circuits if its dimensions are of the
same
> order as the wavelength of the resonance frequency. So in short: NO,
> its not possible :)
>
> They do however create semiconducting devices that can be of the
> order of the wavelength of light, but that's not stuff for a hobbyist.
>
> I have however seen once an experiment that took a GHz signal
> through many stages of frequency doublers (these work using the
non-linearity
> of a certain diode for example) and finally send out the signal
through a parabolic
> antenna. They claimed (showing photographs) that in the dark a faint
visible
> glow was to be seen from supposedly visible light... Although the
magazine
> was ok, I never saw it anywhere reproduced. But you can try of
course.....
>
>         Albert

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• ... They have wavelike and particlelike behavior by classical physics descriptions. ... I think inflation has gotten to your 2 cents. ; ) Antennas do not
Message 5 of 25 , Feb 1, 2004
--- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Erath" <michael@n...>
wrote:
> This all sounds like apples and oranges to me, your trying to apply laws
> that apply to electrons in antenna theory to photons which act much
> differently..
>
> If I remember , photons only follow wave theory sometimes, but not
> always.

They have wavelike and particlelike behavior by classical physics
descriptions.

> Back to photons and electrons. Just because you emit a rf signal at the
> precise wavelength of the light spectrum, wont give you light. Because
> your not emitting photons, your emitting electrons.
>
> My 2 cents.

I think inflation has gotten to your 2 cents. ;') Antennas do not
transmit electrons. An antenna -is- emitting photons. EM waves are
photons. X-Rays, UV, visible light, infrared, microwaves, FM radio,
shortwave radio, AM radio, ELF, and those super low sub audio radio
waves used to communicate with subs under water are all photons.

Alien Steve
• ... Well, not exactly.... Light behaves like photons (that is small packets of energy) when they interact, and like waves when they do not interact (roughly
Message 6 of 25 , Feb 2, 2004

This all sounds like apples and oranges to me, your trying to apply laws that apply to electrons in antenna theory to photons which act much differently..

If I remember , photons only follow wave theory sometimes, but not always.

Back to photons and electrons. Just because you emit a rf signal at the precise wavelength of the light spectrum, wont give you light. Because your not emitting photons, your emitting electrons.

My 2 cents.

-----Original Message-----
From: manifold [mailto:manifold_1@...]
Sent: January 31, 2004 03:17 PM
To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Radio waves and EM transmission - atomic size

There is one part of this post that is not quite right and it is a
common misconception. I ras across it only recently when someone asked
me how an atom can emit light of a wavelength much longer than the
atom is wide. It seems to violate all antenna theory.

Visible light is about 400nm or 4000Angstroms
Atomic radii are around 0.3 to 1 Angstom

So light is more than 3 orders of magnitude longer in wavelength than

>
> Light has a wavelength that is WAY smaller than any lumped-circuit
> can be. Note that its wavelength is of the order of the size of an atom.

> You can only create resonating circuits if its dimensions are of the
same
> order as the wavelength of the resonance frequency. So in short: NO,
> its not possible :)
>
> They do however create semiconducting devices that can be of the
> order of the wavelength of light, but that's not stuff for a hobbyist.
>
> I have however seen once an experiment that took a GHz signal
> through many stages of frequency doublers (these work using the
non-linearity
> of a certain diode for example) and finally send out the signal
through a parabolic
> antenna. They claimed (showing photographs) that in the dark a faint
visible
> glow was to be seen from supposedly visible light... Although the
magazine
> was ok, I never saw it anywhere reproduced. But you can try of
course.....
>
>         Albert

·         To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/

·         To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Electronics_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

·         Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.