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RE: [Electronics_101] Inexpensive GPM meter

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  • James M. Geidl
    Do you have to measure this repeatedly? If not, you can get a value close enough by using a bucket and watch or 30 gal barrel and watch, if you want to
    Message 1 of 14 , May 7, 2013
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      Do you have to measure this repeatedly? If not, you can get a value close
      enough by using a bucket and watch or 30 gal barrel and watch, if you want
      to improve the accuracy.

      James M. Geidl, K6JMG
      D.B. Cooper, you have a message.



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of normnet2003
      Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 5:54 PM
      To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Electronics_101] Inexpensive GPM meter

      I am adding a mixing valve to a 1-1/4" 120 degree hot water supply line for
      several bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower to maintain 105 - 115 degrees
      Fahrenheit as per code.
      The mixing valve will lower as well as smooth out the temps due to burner
      cycling.

      The manufacturers always ask what the GPM is to determine the proper size
      mixing valve.
      So far I can only find GPM meters in the $400 to $500 range.

      I have considerable experience with PIC Microcontrollers if this would of
      help.

      How can I inexpensively determine the Gallons Per Minute of a 1-1/4" pipe?


      Norm
    • normnet2003
      I just need a temporary meter to determine the maximum flow rate to select the right mixing valve. I am hoping to find a paddle wheel with a magnet and count
      Message 2 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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        I just need a temporary meter to determine the maximum flow rate to select the right mixing valve.
        I am hoping to find a paddle wheel with a magnet and count pulses with a PIC or a spring loaded paddle on a potentiometer to measure the water push angle etc.

        Perhaps a smaller diameter pipe with a pressure differential would be an indicator of flow?

        Norm
      • Stefan Trethan
        It doesn t get much cheaper than a bucket.... No doubt your considerable experience with PIC microcontrollers will be a great help in completing this task. ST
        Message 3 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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          It doesn't get much cheaper than a bucket....

          No doubt your considerable experience with PIC microcontrollers will
          be a great help in completing this task.

          ST


          On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:54 AM, normnet2003 <normnet2@...> wrote:
          >
          > How can I inexpensively determine the Gallons Per Minute of a 1-1/4" pipe?
          >
          >
          > Norm
          >
        • Lee
          Norm, A bucket and a watch with a second hand would be the simplest by far but it you really want a paddle wheel type thing - I suggest one of those little
          Message 4 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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            Norm,
            A bucket and a watch with a second hand would be the simplest by far but it you really want a paddle wheel type thing - I suggest one of those little positive displacement pumps that mounts on a drill that uses water hose connections. Just run it backwards with water pressure and mount something on the shaft you can use to count with... magnet or whatever. Your still going to need a bucket though to be able to measure a gallon.

            Harbor Freight sells the little drill operated pumps for about $10 or so. I've seen them offered in other places too but I know HF sells them as a regular stock item.

            Lee B
            http://www.packratworkshop.com


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: normnet2003
            To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 7:59 AM
            Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Inexpensive GPM meter





            I just need a temporary meter to determine the maximum flow rate to select the right mixing valve.
            I am hoping to find a paddle wheel with a magnet and count pulses with a PIC or a spring loaded paddle on a potentiometer to measure the water push angle etc.

            Perhaps a smaller diameter pipe with a pressure differential would be an indicator of flow?

            Norm





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Howard Hansen
            Certainly, as suggested by others, timing how long it takes to fill a container is the lowest cost approach. For an electronic approach you could use 3 flow
            Message 5 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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              Certainly, as suggested by others, timing how long it takes to fill a
              container is the lowest cost approach.

              For an electronic approach you could use 3 flow meters like the
              following connected in parallel.
              <http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/g12-water-flow-sensor-p-635.html>
              25 GPM = 94.6 liters per minute.
              To ensure the low is determine mainly by the 1 1/4 inch pipe you will
              need at least 15 inches of 1 1/4 inc pipe connected to both sides of the
              flow meters. See
              <http://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat7.htm> for information on British BSP
              G1/2 threads. If you have a short time frame this approach will not
              work. There is a 2 to 3 week shipping time from China.

              Another option is to use an orifice and a differential pressure transducer.

              Yes a smaller diameter of pipe would be an indication of flow. But how
              would you calibrate this type of flow meter?

              The other Howard


              On 5/8/2013 6:59 AM, normnet2003 wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > I just need a temporary meter to determine the maximum flow rate to
              > select the right mixing valve.
              > I am hoping to find a paddle wheel with a magnet and count pulses with
              > a PIC or a spring loaded paddle on a potentiometer to measure the
              > water push angle etc.
              >
              > Perhaps a smaller diameter pipe with a pressure differential would be
              > an indicator of flow?
              >
              > Norm
              >
              >
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxOHJ2Mzd2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI5MzgxMjQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA2MDU4MDM3BG1zZ0lkAzgxODk3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM2ODAxNDM0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=81897>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Stefan Trethan
              Some flow meters use ultrasonic waves, very ingenious. Any kind of orifice device may reduce the flow rate you try to measure. I just had another idea, do you
              Message 6 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                Some flow meters use ultrasonic waves, very ingenious.

                Any kind of orifice device may reduce the flow rate you try to measure.

                I just had another idea, do you have a water meter?
                If you have one, just turn on the taps in question and time the little wheel.

                ST

                On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Howard Hansen <hrhan@...> wrote:
                > Certainly, as suggested by others, timing how long it takes to fill a
                > container is the lowest cost approach.
                >
                > For an electronic approach you could use 3 flow meters like the
                > following connected in parallel.
                > <http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/g12-water-flow-sensor-p-635.html>
                > 25 GPM = 94.6 liters per minute.
                > To ensure the low is determine mainly by the 1 1/4 inch pipe you will
                > need at least 15 inches of 1 1/4 inc pipe connected to both sides of the
                > flow meters. See
                > <http://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat7.htm> for information on British BSP
                > G1/2 threads. If you have a short time frame this approach will not
                > work. There is a 2 to 3 week shipping time from China.
                >
                > Another option is to use an orifice and a differential pressure transducer.
                >
                > Yes a smaller diameter of pipe would be an indication of flow. But how
                > would you calibrate this type of flow meter?
                >
                > The other Howard
                >
              • Howard Hansen
                ... Is a 5% reduction in maximum flow rate critical for this application? The other Howard ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                  On 5/8/2013 1:58 PM, Stefan Trethan wrote:
                  >
                  > Some flow meters use ultrasonic waves, very ingenious.
                  >
                  > Any kind of orifice device may reduce the flow rate you try to measure.
                  >

                  Is a 5% reduction in maximum flow rate critical for this application?

                  The other Howard


                  >
                  > I just had another idea, do you have a water meter?
                  > If you have one, just turn on the taps in question and time the little
                  > wheel.
                  >
                  > ST
                  >
                  > On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Howard Hansen <hrhan@...
                  > <mailto:hrhan%40att.net>> wrote:
                  > > Certainly, as suggested by others, timing how long it takes to fill a
                  > > container is the lowest cost approach.
                  > >
                  > > For an electronic approach you could use 3 flow meters like the
                  > > following connected in parallel.
                  > > <http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/g12-water-flow-sensor-p-635.html>
                  > > 25 GPM = 94.6 liters per minute.
                  > > To ensure the low is determine mainly by the 1 1/4 inch pipe you will
                  > > need at least 15 inches of 1 1/4 inc pipe connected to both sides of the
                  > > flow meters. See
                  > > <http://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat7.htm> for information on British BSP
                  > > G1/2 threads. If you have a short time frame this approach will not
                  > > work. There is a 2 to 3 week shipping time from China.
                  > >
                  > > Another option is to use an orifice and a differential pressure
                  > transducer.
                  > >
                  > > Yes a smaller diameter of pipe would be an indication of flow. But how
                  > > would you calibrate this type of flow meter?
                  > >
                  > > The other Howard
                  > >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • normnet2003
                  What I meant was I need to determine the peak demand in GPM in normal usage so the so the bucket method won t be of help. The peak GPM usage would be the best
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                    What I meant was I need to determine the peak demand in GPM in normal usage so the so the bucket method won't be of help.
                    The peak GPM usage would be the best way of properly sizing a mixing valve.
                    This is for a nursing home and the 1-1/4" pipe supplies for about 50 patients with 12 bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower.

                    The mixing valve tech support were finally able to make a mixing valve recommendation based on the city water pressure and the pipe size.

                    Thanks all for your insight.

                    Norm

                    --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "normnet2003" <normnet2@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am adding a mixing valve to a 1-1/4" 120 degree hot water supply line for several bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower to maintain 105 - 115 degrees Fahrenheit as per code.
                    > The mixing valve will lower as well as smooth out the temps due to burner cycling.
                    >
                    > The manufacturers always ask what the GPM is to determine the proper size mixing valve.
                    > So far I can only find GPM meters in the $400 to $500 range.
                    >
                    > I have considerable experience with PIC Microcontrollers if this would of help.
                    >
                    > How can I inexpensively determine the Gallons Per Minute of a 1-1/4" pipe?
                    >
                    >
                    > Norm
                    >
                  • Yan Seiner
                    There are published tables for peak and continuous water demand based on the number and type of fixtures. Look up Ameen s Community water systems source book .
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                      There are published tables for peak and continuous water demand based on
                      the number and type of fixtures.

                      Look up Ameen's Community water systems source book . Maybe you can find
                      it in a library or something; it's pricy at $50 - $100.

                      Much more accurate than a meter.

                      On Wed, May 8, 2013 4:42 pm, normnet2003 wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > What I meant was I need to determine the peak demand in GPM in normal
                      > usage so the so the bucket method won't be of help.
                      > The peak GPM usage would be the best way of properly sizing a mixing
                      > valve.
                      > This is for a nursing home and the 1-1/4" pipe supplies for about 50
                      > patients with 12 bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower.
                      >
                      > The mixing valve tech support were finally able to make a mixing valve
                      > recommendation based on the city water pressure and the pipe size.
                      >
                      > Thanks all for your insight.
                      >
                      > Norm
                      >
                      > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "normnet2003" <normnet2@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >>
                      >> I am adding a mixing valve to a 1-1/4" 120 degree hot water supply line
                      >> for several bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower to maintain 105 - 115
                      >> degrees Fahrenheit as per code.
                      >> The mixing valve will lower as well as smooth out the temps due to
                      >> burner cycling.
                      >>
                      >> The manufacturers always ask what the GPM is to determine the proper
                      >> size mixing valve.
                      >> So far I can only find GPM meters in the $400 to $500 range.
                      >>
                      >> I have considerable experience with PIC Microcontrollers if this would
                      >> of help.
                      >>
                      >> How can I inexpensively determine the Gallons Per Minute of a 1-1/4"
                      >> pipe?
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Norm
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > !DSPAM:518ae5da39246551461313!
                      >


                      --
                      Civil engineer for hire
                      Water/wastewater, site design
                      http://www.seiner.com/engineer/resume.pdf
                    • jeremy youngs
                      yes indeed there are . i linked just such a critter as the first response , wow what a mountain from a molehill :) ... -- We conclude that the Second Amendment
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                        yes indeed there are . i linked just such a critter as the first response ,
                        wow what a mountain from a molehill :)


                        On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Yan Seiner <yan@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > There are published tables for peak and continuous water demand based on
                        > the number and type of fixtures.
                        >
                        > Look up Ameen's Community water systems source book . Maybe you can find
                        > it in a library or something; it's pricy at $50 - $100.
                        >
                        > Much more accurate than a meter.
                        >
                        >
                        > On Wed, May 8, 2013 4:42 pm, normnet2003 wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > What I meant was I need to determine the peak demand in GPM in normal
                        > > usage so the so the bucket method won't be of help.
                        > > The peak GPM usage would be the best way of properly sizing a mixing
                        > > valve.
                        > > This is for a nursing home and the 1-1/4" pipe supplies for about 50
                        > > patients with 12 bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower.
                        > >
                        > > The mixing valve tech support were finally able to make a mixing valve
                        > > recommendation based on the city water pressure and the pipe size.
                        > >
                        > > Thanks all for your insight.
                        > >
                        > > Norm
                        > >
                        > > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "normnet2003" <normnet2@...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> I am adding a mixing valve to a 1-1/4" 120 degree hot water supply line
                        > >> for several bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower to maintain 105 - 115
                        > >> degrees Fahrenheit as per code.
                        > >> The mixing valve will lower as well as smooth out the temps due to
                        > >> burner cycling.
                        > >>
                        > >> The manufacturers always ask what the GPM is to determine the proper
                        > >> size mixing valve.
                        > >> So far I can only find GPM meters in the $400 to $500 range.
                        > >>
                        > >> I have considerable experience with PIC Microcontrollers if this would
                        > >> of help.
                        > >>
                        > >> How can I inexpensively determine the Gallons Per Minute of a 1-1/4"
                        > >> pipe?
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> Norm
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > !DSPAM:518ae5da39246551461313!
                        > >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Civil engineer for hire
                        > Water/wastewater, site design
                        > http://www.seiner.com/engineer/resume.pdf
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        We conclude that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep
                        and bear arms. That right existed prior to the formation of the new
                        government under the Constitution and was premised on the private use of
                        arms for activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being
                        understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the depredations
                        of a tyrannical government." - U.S. Court of Appeals, D.C. Circuit, March
                        9, 2007



                        jeremy youngs


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Edward Brown
                        To determine the flow rate you need the pressure in psi also the length of the pipe there is a chart. Which gives the maximum as 16,3 gallons a minute but as
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                          To determine the flow rate you need the pressure in psi also the length of the pipe there is a chart. Which gives the maximum as 16,3 gallons a minute but as stated, pressure and length make a difference also the number of bends.
                          If you can check the pressure of the system, you can then look at the chart and determine a fairly accurate gym.
                          Just google copper pipe gpm for a link to a chart

                          Sent from my iPad

                          On 08/05/2013, at 7:59 PM, "normnet2003" <normnet2@...> wrote:

                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • normnet2003
                          This is the device: http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/g114-water-flow-sensor-p-1082.html?cPath=144_151 It will help determine the max flow rate of all demand in
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 11, 2013
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                            This is the device:
                            http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/g114-water-flow-sensor-p-1082.html?cPath=144_151

                            It will help determine the max flow rate of all demand in normal usage as opposed to the max flow into a bucket of one valve.

                            Thanks to the other Howard

                            Norm

                            --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Howard Hansen <hrhan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Certainly, as suggested by others, timing how long it takes to fill a
                            > container is the lowest cost approach.
                            >
                            > For an electronic approach you could use 3 flow meters like the
                            > following connected in parallel.
                            > <http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/g12-water-flow-sensor-p-635.html>
                            > 25 GPM = 94.6 liters per minute.
                            > To ensure the low is determine mainly by the 1 1/4 inch pipe you will
                            > need at least 15 inches of 1 1/4 inc pipe connected to both sides of the
                            > flow meters. See
                            > <http://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat7.htm> for information on British BSP
                            > G1/2 threads. If you have a short time frame this approach will not
                            > work. There is a 2 to 3 week shipping time from China.
                            >
                            > Another option is to use an orifice and a differential pressure transducer.
                            >
                            > Yes a smaller diameter of pipe would be an indication of flow. But how
                            > would you calibrate this type of flow meter?
                            >
                            > The other Howard
                            >
                            >
                            > On 5/8/2013 6:59 AM, normnet2003 wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I just need a temporary meter to determine the maximum flow rate to
                            > > select the right mixing valve.
                            > > I am hoping to find a paddle wheel with a magnet and count pulses with
                            > > a PIC or a spring loaded paddle on a potentiometer to measure the
                            > > water push angle etc.
                            > >
                            > > Perhaps a smaller diameter pipe with a pressure differential would be
                            > > an indicator of flow?
                            > >
                            > > Norm
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxOHJ2Mzd2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI5MzgxMjQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA2MDU4MDM3BG1zZ0lkAzgxODk3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM2ODAxNDM0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=81897>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
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