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Inexpensive GPM meter

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  • normnet2003
    I am adding a mixing valve to a 1-1/4 120 degree hot water supply line for several bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower to maintain 105 - 115 degrees
    Message 1 of 14 , May 7, 2013
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      I am adding a mixing valve to a 1-1/4" 120 degree hot water supply line for several bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower to maintain 105 - 115 degrees Fahrenheit as per code.
      The mixing valve will lower as well as smooth out the temps due to burner cycling.

      The manufacturers always ask what the GPM is to determine the proper size mixing valve.
      So far I can only find GPM meters in the $400 to $500 range.

      I have considerable experience with PIC Microcontrollers if this would of help.

      How can I inexpensively determine the Gallons Per Minute of a 1-1/4" pipe?


      Norm
    • jeremy youngs
      http://flexpvc.com/WaterFlowBasedOnPipeSize.shtml this should help ... -- We conclude that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear
      Message 2 of 14 , May 7, 2013
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        http://flexpvc.com/WaterFlowBasedOnPipeSize.shtml
        this should help



        On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:54 PM, normnet2003 <normnet2@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > I am adding a mixing valve to a 1-1/4" 120 degree hot water supply line
        > for several bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower to maintain 105 - 115
        > degrees Fahrenheit as per code.
        > The mixing valve will lower as well as smooth out the temps due to burner
        > cycling.
        >
        > The manufacturers always ask what the GPM is to determine the proper size
        > mixing valve.
        > So far I can only find GPM meters in the $400 to $500 range.
        >
        > I have considerable experience with PIC Microcontrollers if this would of
        > help.
        >
        > How can I inexpensively determine the Gallons Per Minute of a 1-1/4" pipe?
        >
        > Norm
        >
        >
        >



        --
        We conclude that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep
        and bear arms. That right existed prior to the formation of the new
        government under the Constitution and was premised on the private use of
        arms for activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being
        understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the depredations
        of a tyrannical government." - U.S. Court of Appeals, D.C. Circuit, March
        9, 2007



        jeremy youngs


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • James M. Geidl
        Do you have to measure this repeatedly? If not, you can get a value close enough by using a bucket and watch or 30 gal barrel and watch, if you want to
        Message 3 of 14 , May 7, 2013
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          Do you have to measure this repeatedly? If not, you can get a value close
          enough by using a bucket and watch or 30 gal barrel and watch, if you want
          to improve the accuracy.

          James M. Geidl, K6JMG
          D.B. Cooper, you have a message.



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of normnet2003
          Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 5:54 PM
          To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Electronics_101] Inexpensive GPM meter

          I am adding a mixing valve to a 1-1/4" 120 degree hot water supply line for
          several bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower to maintain 105 - 115 degrees
          Fahrenheit as per code.
          The mixing valve will lower as well as smooth out the temps due to burner
          cycling.

          The manufacturers always ask what the GPM is to determine the proper size
          mixing valve.
          So far I can only find GPM meters in the $400 to $500 range.

          I have considerable experience with PIC Microcontrollers if this would of
          help.

          How can I inexpensively determine the Gallons Per Minute of a 1-1/4" pipe?


          Norm
        • normnet2003
          I just need a temporary meter to determine the maximum flow rate to select the right mixing valve. I am hoping to find a paddle wheel with a magnet and count
          Message 4 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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            I just need a temporary meter to determine the maximum flow rate to select the right mixing valve.
            I am hoping to find a paddle wheel with a magnet and count pulses with a PIC or a spring loaded paddle on a potentiometer to measure the water push angle etc.

            Perhaps a smaller diameter pipe with a pressure differential would be an indicator of flow?

            Norm
          • Stefan Trethan
            It doesn t get much cheaper than a bucket.... No doubt your considerable experience with PIC microcontrollers will be a great help in completing this task. ST
            Message 5 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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              It doesn't get much cheaper than a bucket....

              No doubt your considerable experience with PIC microcontrollers will
              be a great help in completing this task.

              ST


              On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:54 AM, normnet2003 <normnet2@...> wrote:
              >
              > How can I inexpensively determine the Gallons Per Minute of a 1-1/4" pipe?
              >
              >
              > Norm
              >
            • Lee
              Norm, A bucket and a watch with a second hand would be the simplest by far but it you really want a paddle wheel type thing - I suggest one of those little
              Message 6 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                Norm,
                A bucket and a watch with a second hand would be the simplest by far but it you really want a paddle wheel type thing - I suggest one of those little positive displacement pumps that mounts on a drill that uses water hose connections. Just run it backwards with water pressure and mount something on the shaft you can use to count with... magnet or whatever. Your still going to need a bucket though to be able to measure a gallon.

                Harbor Freight sells the little drill operated pumps for about $10 or so. I've seen them offered in other places too but I know HF sells them as a regular stock item.

                Lee B
                http://www.packratworkshop.com


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: normnet2003
                To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 7:59 AM
                Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Inexpensive GPM meter





                I just need a temporary meter to determine the maximum flow rate to select the right mixing valve.
                I am hoping to find a paddle wheel with a magnet and count pulses with a PIC or a spring loaded paddle on a potentiometer to measure the water push angle etc.

                Perhaps a smaller diameter pipe with a pressure differential would be an indicator of flow?

                Norm





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Howard Hansen
                Certainly, as suggested by others, timing how long it takes to fill a container is the lowest cost approach. For an electronic approach you could use 3 flow
                Message 7 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                  Certainly, as suggested by others, timing how long it takes to fill a
                  container is the lowest cost approach.

                  For an electronic approach you could use 3 flow meters like the
                  following connected in parallel.
                  <http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/g12-water-flow-sensor-p-635.html>
                  25 GPM = 94.6 liters per minute.
                  To ensure the low is determine mainly by the 1 1/4 inch pipe you will
                  need at least 15 inches of 1 1/4 inc pipe connected to both sides of the
                  flow meters. See
                  <http://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat7.htm> for information on British BSP
                  G1/2 threads. If you have a short time frame this approach will not
                  work. There is a 2 to 3 week shipping time from China.

                  Another option is to use an orifice and a differential pressure transducer.

                  Yes a smaller diameter of pipe would be an indication of flow. But how
                  would you calibrate this type of flow meter?

                  The other Howard


                  On 5/8/2013 6:59 AM, normnet2003 wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I just need a temporary meter to determine the maximum flow rate to
                  > select the right mixing valve.
                  > I am hoping to find a paddle wheel with a magnet and count pulses with
                  > a PIC or a spring loaded paddle on a potentiometer to measure the
                  > water push angle etc.
                  >
                  > Perhaps a smaller diameter pipe with a pressure differential would be
                  > an indicator of flow?
                  >
                  > Norm
                  >
                  >
                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxOHJ2Mzd2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI5MzgxMjQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA2MDU4MDM3BG1zZ0lkAzgxODk3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM2ODAxNDM0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=81897>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Stefan Trethan
                  Some flow meters use ultrasonic waves, very ingenious. Any kind of orifice device may reduce the flow rate you try to measure. I just had another idea, do you
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                    Some flow meters use ultrasonic waves, very ingenious.

                    Any kind of orifice device may reduce the flow rate you try to measure.

                    I just had another idea, do you have a water meter?
                    If you have one, just turn on the taps in question and time the little wheel.

                    ST

                    On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Howard Hansen <hrhan@...> wrote:
                    > Certainly, as suggested by others, timing how long it takes to fill a
                    > container is the lowest cost approach.
                    >
                    > For an electronic approach you could use 3 flow meters like the
                    > following connected in parallel.
                    > <http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/g12-water-flow-sensor-p-635.html>
                    > 25 GPM = 94.6 liters per minute.
                    > To ensure the low is determine mainly by the 1 1/4 inch pipe you will
                    > need at least 15 inches of 1 1/4 inc pipe connected to both sides of the
                    > flow meters. See
                    > <http://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat7.htm> for information on British BSP
                    > G1/2 threads. If you have a short time frame this approach will not
                    > work. There is a 2 to 3 week shipping time from China.
                    >
                    > Another option is to use an orifice and a differential pressure transducer.
                    >
                    > Yes a smaller diameter of pipe would be an indication of flow. But how
                    > would you calibrate this type of flow meter?
                    >
                    > The other Howard
                    >
                  • Howard Hansen
                    ... Is a 5% reduction in maximum flow rate critical for this application? The other Howard ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                      On 5/8/2013 1:58 PM, Stefan Trethan wrote:
                      >
                      > Some flow meters use ultrasonic waves, very ingenious.
                      >
                      > Any kind of orifice device may reduce the flow rate you try to measure.
                      >

                      Is a 5% reduction in maximum flow rate critical for this application?

                      The other Howard


                      >
                      > I just had another idea, do you have a water meter?
                      > If you have one, just turn on the taps in question and time the little
                      > wheel.
                      >
                      > ST
                      >
                      > On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Howard Hansen <hrhan@...
                      > <mailto:hrhan%40att.net>> wrote:
                      > > Certainly, as suggested by others, timing how long it takes to fill a
                      > > container is the lowest cost approach.
                      > >
                      > > For an electronic approach you could use 3 flow meters like the
                      > > following connected in parallel.
                      > > <http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/g12-water-flow-sensor-p-635.html>
                      > > 25 GPM = 94.6 liters per minute.
                      > > To ensure the low is determine mainly by the 1 1/4 inch pipe you will
                      > > need at least 15 inches of 1 1/4 inc pipe connected to both sides of the
                      > > flow meters. See
                      > > <http://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat7.htm> for information on British BSP
                      > > G1/2 threads. If you have a short time frame this approach will not
                      > > work. There is a 2 to 3 week shipping time from China.
                      > >
                      > > Another option is to use an orifice and a differential pressure
                      > transducer.
                      > >
                      > > Yes a smaller diameter of pipe would be an indication of flow. But how
                      > > would you calibrate this type of flow meter?
                      > >
                      > > The other Howard
                      > >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • normnet2003
                      What I meant was I need to determine the peak demand in GPM in normal usage so the so the bucket method won t be of help. The peak GPM usage would be the best
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                        What I meant was I need to determine the peak demand in GPM in normal usage so the so the bucket method won't be of help.
                        The peak GPM usage would be the best way of properly sizing a mixing valve.
                        This is for a nursing home and the 1-1/4" pipe supplies for about 50 patients with 12 bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower.

                        The mixing valve tech support were finally able to make a mixing valve recommendation based on the city water pressure and the pipe size.

                        Thanks all for your insight.

                        Norm

                        --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "normnet2003" <normnet2@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I am adding a mixing valve to a 1-1/4" 120 degree hot water supply line for several bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower to maintain 105 - 115 degrees Fahrenheit as per code.
                        > The mixing valve will lower as well as smooth out the temps due to burner cycling.
                        >
                        > The manufacturers always ask what the GPM is to determine the proper size mixing valve.
                        > So far I can only find GPM meters in the $400 to $500 range.
                        >
                        > I have considerable experience with PIC Microcontrollers if this would of help.
                        >
                        > How can I inexpensively determine the Gallons Per Minute of a 1-1/4" pipe?
                        >
                        >
                        > Norm
                        >
                      • Yan Seiner
                        There are published tables for peak and continuous water demand based on the number and type of fixtures. Look up Ameen s Community water systems source book .
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                          There are published tables for peak and continuous water demand based on
                          the number and type of fixtures.

                          Look up Ameen's Community water systems source book . Maybe you can find
                          it in a library or something; it's pricy at $50 - $100.

                          Much more accurate than a meter.

                          On Wed, May 8, 2013 4:42 pm, normnet2003 wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > What I meant was I need to determine the peak demand in GPM in normal
                          > usage so the so the bucket method won't be of help.
                          > The peak GPM usage would be the best way of properly sizing a mixing
                          > valve.
                          > This is for a nursing home and the 1-1/4" pipe supplies for about 50
                          > patients with 12 bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower.
                          >
                          > The mixing valve tech support were finally able to make a mixing valve
                          > recommendation based on the city water pressure and the pipe size.
                          >
                          > Thanks all for your insight.
                          >
                          > Norm
                          >
                          > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "normnet2003" <normnet2@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >>
                          >> I am adding a mixing valve to a 1-1/4" 120 degree hot water supply line
                          >> for several bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower to maintain 105 - 115
                          >> degrees Fahrenheit as per code.
                          >> The mixing valve will lower as well as smooth out the temps due to
                          >> burner cycling.
                          >>
                          >> The manufacturers always ask what the GPM is to determine the proper
                          >> size mixing valve.
                          >> So far I can only find GPM meters in the $400 to $500 range.
                          >>
                          >> I have considerable experience with PIC Microcontrollers if this would
                          >> of help.
                          >>
                          >> How can I inexpensively determine the Gallons Per Minute of a 1-1/4"
                          >> pipe?
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Norm
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > !DSPAM:518ae5da39246551461313!
                          >


                          --
                          Civil engineer for hire
                          Water/wastewater, site design
                          http://www.seiner.com/engineer/resume.pdf
                        • jeremy youngs
                          yes indeed there are . i linked just such a critter as the first response , wow what a mountain from a molehill :) ... -- We conclude that the Second Amendment
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                            yes indeed there are . i linked just such a critter as the first response ,
                            wow what a mountain from a molehill :)


                            On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Yan Seiner <yan@...> wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            > There are published tables for peak and continuous water demand based on
                            > the number and type of fixtures.
                            >
                            > Look up Ameen's Community water systems source book . Maybe you can find
                            > it in a library or something; it's pricy at $50 - $100.
                            >
                            > Much more accurate than a meter.
                            >
                            >
                            > On Wed, May 8, 2013 4:42 pm, normnet2003 wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > What I meant was I need to determine the peak demand in GPM in normal
                            > > usage so the so the bucket method won't be of help.
                            > > The peak GPM usage would be the best way of properly sizing a mixing
                            > > valve.
                            > > This is for a nursing home and the 1-1/4" pipe supplies for about 50
                            > > patients with 12 bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower.
                            > >
                            > > The mixing valve tech support were finally able to make a mixing valve
                            > > recommendation based on the city water pressure and the pipe size.
                            > >
                            > > Thanks all for your insight.
                            > >
                            > > Norm
                            > >
                            > > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "normnet2003" <normnet2@...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >> I am adding a mixing valve to a 1-1/4" 120 degree hot water supply line
                            > >> for several bathroom sinks, 2 tubs and 1 shower to maintain 105 - 115
                            > >> degrees Fahrenheit as per code.
                            > >> The mixing valve will lower as well as smooth out the temps due to
                            > >> burner cycling.
                            > >>
                            > >> The manufacturers always ask what the GPM is to determine the proper
                            > >> size mixing valve.
                            > >> So far I can only find GPM meters in the $400 to $500 range.
                            > >>
                            > >> I have considerable experience with PIC Microcontrollers if this would
                            > >> of help.
                            > >>
                            > >> How can I inexpensively determine the Gallons Per Minute of a 1-1/4"
                            > >> pipe?
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> Norm
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > !DSPAM:518ae5da39246551461313!
                            > >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Civil engineer for hire
                            > Water/wastewater, site design
                            > http://www.seiner.com/engineer/resume.pdf
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            --
                            We conclude that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep
                            and bear arms. That right existed prior to the formation of the new
                            government under the Constitution and was premised on the private use of
                            arms for activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being
                            understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the depredations
                            of a tyrannical government." - U.S. Court of Appeals, D.C. Circuit, March
                            9, 2007



                            jeremy youngs


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Edward Brown
                            To determine the flow rate you need the pressure in psi also the length of the pipe there is a chart. Which gives the maximum as 16,3 gallons a minute but as
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 8, 2013
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                              To determine the flow rate you need the pressure in psi also the length of the pipe there is a chart. Which gives the maximum as 16,3 gallons a minute but as stated, pressure and length make a difference also the number of bends.
                              If you can check the pressure of the system, you can then look at the chart and determine a fairly accurate gym.
                              Just google copper pipe gpm for a link to a chart

                              Sent from my iPad

                              On 08/05/2013, at 7:59 PM, "normnet2003" <normnet2@...> wrote:

                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • normnet2003
                              This is the device: http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/g114-water-flow-sensor-p-1082.html?cPath=144_151 It will help determine the max flow rate of all demand in
                              Message 14 of 14 , May 11, 2013
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                                This is the device:
                                http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/g114-water-flow-sensor-p-1082.html?cPath=144_151

                                It will help determine the max flow rate of all demand in normal usage as opposed to the max flow into a bucket of one valve.

                                Thanks to the other Howard

                                Norm

                                --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Howard Hansen <hrhan@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Certainly, as suggested by others, timing how long it takes to fill a
                                > container is the lowest cost approach.
                                >
                                > For an electronic approach you could use 3 flow meters like the
                                > following connected in parallel.
                                > <http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/g12-water-flow-sensor-p-635.html>
                                > 25 GPM = 94.6 liters per minute.
                                > To ensure the low is determine mainly by the 1 1/4 inch pipe you will
                                > need at least 15 inches of 1 1/4 inc pipe connected to both sides of the
                                > flow meters. See
                                > <http://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat7.htm> for information on British BSP
                                > G1/2 threads. If you have a short time frame this approach will not
                                > work. There is a 2 to 3 week shipping time from China.
                                >
                                > Another option is to use an orifice and a differential pressure transducer.
                                >
                                > Yes a smaller diameter of pipe would be an indication of flow. But how
                                > would you calibrate this type of flow meter?
                                >
                                > The other Howard
                                >
                                >
                                > On 5/8/2013 6:59 AM, normnet2003 wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I just need a temporary meter to determine the maximum flow rate to
                                > > select the right mixing valve.
                                > > I am hoping to find a paddle wheel with a magnet and count pulses with
                                > > a PIC or a spring loaded paddle on a potentiometer to measure the
                                > > water push angle etc.
                                > >
                                > > Perhaps a smaller diameter pipe with a pressure differential would be
                                > > an indicator of flow?
                                > >
                                > > Norm
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxOHJ2Mzd2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI5MzgxMjQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA2MDU4MDM3BG1zZ0lkAzgxODk3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM2ODAxNDM0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=81897>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
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