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Re: [Electronics_101] are step response and frequency response transfer functions the same?

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  • Jan Kok
    The transfer functions should be exactly the same - if your system is linear. If you are getting different results, I d suspect: - System is not linear. (Try
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 10, 2013
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      The transfer functions should be exactly the same - if your system is
      linear. If you are getting different results, I'd suspect:

      - System is not linear. (Try repeating the measurements using lower signal
      levels.) If the system includes an op amp, one source of nonlinearity and
      additional delay could be the limited slew rate of the op amp. It would
      cause square waves to look like trapezoids, and sine waves to look somewhat
      like triangle waves.

      - Measurement or calculation errors.

      For the step response measurement, I assume you are using a square wave as
      a stimulus. Is the pulse width much longer than the expected lag?


      On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 12:18 PM, scubadogct <scubadogct@...> wrote:

      > Hello
      >
      > I have been given a task where I need to work out the transfer function
      > for a system firstly using the step response method then secondly using
      > the frequency responce method. The system has a transfer function that is
      > a 1st order lag.
      >
      > I have done both and have plotted the bode plots for the frequency
      > response method.
      >
      > My question is should the transfer function for the step response method
      > and the frequency responce method be roughly the same? As it currently
      > stands my gain is the same and yet my time contast is different.
      >
      > The break point on amplitude ratio plot corresponds nicley my -45 degree
      > point on my phase shift plots, so at least theese agree.
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Charlie Taylor
      Hi thanks for the response. The system is linear. For the step response the input isna syeo square with a pulse wider than the lag. I am happy that the results
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 10, 2013
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        Hi thanks for the response.

        The system is linear.

        For the step response the input isna syeo square with a pulse wider than
        the lag. I am happy that the results from the step respinse ia correct.

        I am sure that the frequency response is incorect. The test board comprises
        of a DC motor to wich a board comprising some amplifiers are conncted. We
        applied a sinusoidal input and measures the volatge output from the tacho.

        We used a 10volt peak to peak input. This nearly caused the measured output
        volatge of the motor to clip {flat line} due to the motor reaching its top
        speed . We also used a 5volt offset to keep the sinusoidal inout always
        posotive and therby driving the motor forward. Perhaps we ahould have used
        a smaller imout voltage or perhaps not used a DC off set.

        I see your point regarding the op amps of wich there are at least 2 but the
        output volathe from both the step and frequencu response looks normal with
        no trapzoiding and no traingular sine waves.

        Thanks for your help.
        On Mar 10, 2013 7:00 PM, "Jan Kok" <jan.kok.5y@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > The transfer functions should be exactly the same - if your system is
        > linear. If you are getting different results, I'd suspect:
        >
        > - System is not linear. (Try repeating the measurements using lower signal
        > levels.) If the system includes an op amp, one source of nonlinearity and
        > additional delay could be the limited slew rate of the op amp. It would
        > cause square waves to look like trapezoids, and sine waves to look somewhat
        > like triangle waves.
        >
        > - Measurement or calculation errors.
        >
        > For the step response measurement, I assume you are using a square wave as
        > a stimulus. Is the pulse width much longer than the expected lag?
        >
        > On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 12:18 PM, scubadogct <scubadogct@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Hello
        > >
        > > I have been given a task where I need to work out the transfer function
        > > for a system firstly using the step response method then secondly using
        > > the frequency responce method. The system has a transfer function that is
        > > a 1st order lag.
        > >
        > > I have done both and have plotted the bode plots for the frequency
        > > response method.
        > >
        > > My question is should the transfer function for the step response method
        > > and the frequency responce method be roughly the same? As it currently
        > > stands my gain is the same and yet my time contast is different.
        > >
        > > The break point on amplitude ratio plot corresponds nicley my -45 degree
        > > point on my phase shift plots, so at least theese agree.
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lucianopep Luciano
        ?? you have mistake? my question is bark detector  :-) by luciano  :-) ________________________________ From: Charlie Taylor To:
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 10, 2013
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          ?? you have mistake? my question is bark detector  :-)

          by luciano  :-)


          ________________________________
          From: Charlie Taylor <scubadogct@...>
          To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2013 9:16 PM
          Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] are step response and frequency response transfer functions the same?

          Hi thanks for the response.

          The system is linear.

          For the step response the input isna syeo square with a pulse wider than
          the lag. I am happy that the results from the step respinse ia correct.

          I am sure that the frequency response is incorect. The test board comprises
          of a DC motor to wich a board comprising some amplifiers are conncted. We
          applied a sinusoidal input and measures the volatge output from the tacho.

          We used a 10volt peak to peak input. This nearly caused the measured output
          volatge of the motor to clip {flat line} due to the motor reaching its top
          speed . We also used a 5volt  offset to keep the sinusoidal inout always
          posotive and therby driving the motor forward. Perhaps we ahould have used
          a smaller imout voltage or perhaps not used a DC off set.

          I see your point regarding the op amps of wich there are at least 2 but the
          output volathe from both the step and frequencu response looks normal with
          no trapzoiding and no traingular sine waves.

          Thanks for your help.
          On Mar 10, 2013 7:00 PM, "Jan Kok" <jan.kok.5y@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > The transfer functions should be exactly the same - if your system is
          > linear. If you are getting different results, I'd suspect:
          >
          > - System is not linear. (Try repeating the measurements using lower signal
          > levels.) If the system includes an op amp, one source of nonlinearity and
          > additional delay could be the limited slew rate of the op amp. It would
          > cause square waves to look like trapezoids, and sine waves to look somewhat
          > like triangle waves.
          >
          > - Measurement or calculation errors.
          >
          > For the step response measurement, I assume you are using a square wave as
          > a stimulus. Is the pulse width much longer than the expected lag?
          >
          > On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 12:18 PM, scubadogct <scubadogct@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Hello
          > >
          > > I have been given a task where I need to work out the transfer function
          > > for a system firstly using the step response method then secondly using
          > > the frequency responce method. The system has a transfer function that is
          > > a 1st order lag.
          > >
          > > I have done both and have plotted the bode plots for the frequency
          > > response method.
          > >
          > > My question is should the transfer function for the step response method
          > > and the frequency responce method be roughly the same? As it currently
          > > stands my gain is the same and yet my time contast is different.
          > >
          > > The break point on amplitude ratio plot corresponds nicley my -45 degree
          > > point on my phase shift plots, so at least theese agree.
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >

          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Please trim excess when replyingYahoo! Groups Links



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Charlie Taylor
          what has my question got to do with a bark detector? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 10, 2013
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            what has my question got to do with a bark detector?
            On Mar 10, 2013 8:34 PM, "Lucianopep Luciano" <lucianopep@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > ?? you have mistake? my question is bark detector :-)
            >
            > by luciano :-)
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Charlie Taylor <scubadogct@...>
            > To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2013 9:16 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] are step response and frequency response
            > transfer functions the same?
            >
            > Hi thanks for the response.
            >
            > The system is linear.
            >
            > For the step response the input isna syeo square with a pulse wider than
            > the lag. I am happy that the results from the step respinse ia correct.
            >
            > I am sure that the frequency response is incorect. The test board comprises
            > of a DC motor to wich a board comprising some amplifiers are conncted. We
            > applied a sinusoidal input and measures the volatge output from the tacho.
            >
            > We used a 10volt peak to peak input. This nearly caused the measured output
            > volatge of the motor to clip {flat line} due to the motor reaching its top
            > speed . We also used a 5volt offset to keep the sinusoidal inout always
            > posotive and therby driving the motor forward. Perhaps we ahould have used
            > a smaller imout voltage or perhaps not used a DC off set.
            >
            > I see your point regarding the op amps of wich there are at least 2 but the
            > output volathe from both the step and frequencu response looks normal with
            > no trapzoiding and no traingular sine waves.
            >
            > Thanks for your help.
            > On Mar 10, 2013 7:00 PM, "Jan Kok" <jan.kok.5y@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > The transfer functions should be exactly the same - if your system is
            > > linear. If you are getting different results, I'd suspect:
            > >
            > > - System is not linear. (Try repeating the measurements using lower
            > signal
            > > levels.) If the system includes an op amp, one source of nonlinearity and
            > > additional delay could be the limited slew rate of the op amp. It would
            > > cause square waves to look like trapezoids, and sine waves to look
            > somewhat
            > > like triangle waves.
            > >
            > > - Measurement or calculation errors.
            > >
            > > For the step response measurement, I assume you are using a square wave
            > as
            > > a stimulus. Is the pulse width much longer than the expected lag?
            > >
            > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 12:18 PM, scubadogct <scubadogct@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > > Hello
            > > >
            > > > I have been given a task where I need to work out the transfer function
            > > > for a system firstly using the step response method then secondly using
            > > > the frequency responce method. The system has a transfer function that
            > is
            > > > a 1st order lag.
            > > >
            > > > I have done both and have plotted the bode plots for the frequency
            > > > response method.
            > > >
            > > > My question is should the transfer function for the step response
            > method
            > > > and the frequency responce method be roughly the same? As it currently
            > > > stands my gain is the same and yet my time contast is different.
            > > >
            > > > The break point on amplitude ratio plot corresponds nicley my -45
            > degree
            > > > point on my phase shift plots, so at least theese agree.
            > > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Please trim excess when replyingYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jan Kok
            ... In theory. :-) ... I don t think the DC offset should cause problems. I would suggest you keep the 5V DC offset and try a smaller sine wave and square
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 10, 2013
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              On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 2:16 PM, Charlie Taylor <scubadogct@...>wrote:

              > Hi thanks for the response.
              >
              > The system is linear.
              >

              In theory. :-)


              >
              > For the step response the input isna syeo square with a pulse wider than
              > the lag. I am happy that the results from the step respinse ia correct.
              >
              > I am sure that the frequency response is incorect. The test board comprises
              > of a DC motor to wich a board comprising some amplifiers are conncted. We
              > applied a sinusoidal input and measures the volatge output from the tacho.
              >
              > We used a 10volt peak to peak input. This nearly caused the measured output
              > volatge of the motor to clip {flat line} due to the motor reaching its top
              > speed . We also used a 5volt offset to keep the sinusoidal inout always
              > posotive and therby driving the motor forward. Perhaps we ahould have used
              > a smaller imout voltage or perhaps not used a DC off set.
              >

              I don't think the DC offset should cause problems.

              I would suggest you keep the 5V DC offset and try a smaller sine wave and
              square wave. (Say 5V P-P instead of 10V P-P.) If everything is linear, the
              transfer functions you get should all be the same regardless of input
              voltage.

              You've probably got an op amp driving some transistors that drive the
              motor. Do the transistors create a linear amplifier?

              One problem might be that the transistor amplifier might not be designed to
              actively pull the output voltage toward ground, if the motor is spinning
              faster than the control signal is telling it to go. Thus the motor would
              slow down more slowly than it speeds up. That would look like a lag.

              You could replace the motor with a resistor and capacitor in series, where
              R is the motor resistance and C is chosen to store the same amount of
              energy (1/2 C V^2) as the kinetic energy in the motor's rotor at the same
              voltage. The voltage across C would be proportional to the motor speed if
              you had the motor in the circuit. Replacing the motor with the RC gets rid
              of motor noise and eliminates the tachometer as sources of confusion.


              >
              > I see your point regarding the op amps of wich there are at least 2 but the
              > output volathe from both the step and frequencu response looks normal with
              > no trapzoiding and no traingular sine waves.
              >

              Have you looked at the tachometer output signal? I would expect it to look
              like a low pass filtered version of the input signal. It should also look
              like the capacitor voltage mentioned above.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • larry_s_parkes
              the responses should be the same. If they are not, then it quite likely that your either or both the step or sinusoidal excitation is too large causing the
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 11, 2013
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                the responses should be the same. If they are not, then it quite likely that your either or both the step or sinusoidal excitation is too large causing the implementation to hit limits, step sizes of about 5% of rated quantities is a reasonable place to start.

                --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "scubadogct" <scubadogct@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello
                >
                > I have been given a task where I need to work out the transfer function for a system firstly using the step response method then secondly using the frequency responce method. The system has a transfer function that is a 1st order lag.
                >
                > I have done both and have plotted the bode plots for the frequency response method.
                >
                > My question is should the transfer function for the step response method and the frequency responce method be roughly the same? As it currently stands my gain is the same and yet my time contast is different.
                >
                > The break point on amplitude ratio plot corresponds nicley my -45 degree point on my phase shift plots, so at least theese agree.
                >
                >
                > Thanks
                >
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