Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Complete CFL and component testing, need help

Expand Messages
  • Alam
    Hello Everyone, have not sent mail to the group for quite long. Got busy with other works, specially starting business. I am trying to set up a CFL assemble
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 20, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello Everyone, have not sent mail to the group for quite long. Got busy
      with other works, specially starting business.



      I am trying to set up a CFL assemble factory. I will get the burner and PCB
      from supplier and assemble them.



      I need to know how can I test the burner, PCB and the complete CFL?



      For burner I have seen people using tesla machine to test it. How does tesla
      machine work?



      What is the parameter for measuring PCB?



      How can I measure current usage, wattage and power factor of complete CFL?



      I know that there are readymade machine for them, but I need to know the
      basics of testing. It would be also appreciated if anyone can give me
      solution with easily available test equipment.



      Anyone from similar experience?



      Regards

      Alam







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bob Corder
      I had no problem downloading these two PDF files and saving then to my PC. -- Smile Every Day It Helps Your Face... Bob [Non-text portions of this message have
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 21, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        I had no problem downloading these two PDF files and saving then to my PC.

        --
        Smile Every Day
        It Helps Your Face...

        Bob


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Alam
        This is surprising, I haven t received any reply so far? This has never happened before. From: Alam [mailto:alam25@joteel.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 21,
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 25, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          This is surprising, I haven't received any reply so far? This has never
          happened before.





          From: Alam [mailto:alam25@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 10:11 AM
          To: electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Complete CFL and component testing, need help



          Hello Everyone, have not sent mail to the group for quite long. Got busy
          with other works, specially starting business.



          I am trying to set up a CFL assemble factory. I will get the burner and PCB
          from supplier and assemble them.



          I need to know how can I test the burner, PCB and the complete CFL?



          For burner I have seen people using tesla machine to test it. How does tesla
          machine work?



          What is the parameter for measuring PCB?



          How can I measure current usage, wattage and power factor of complete CFL?



          I know that there are readymade machine for them, but I need to know the
          basics of testing. It would be also appreciated if anyone can give me
          solution with easily available test equipment.



          Anyone from similar experience?



          Regards

          Alam







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Howard Hansen
          It is not surprising you received no replies. CFL assembly factory is a niche topic. Hence it looks like there are no subscribers to this mailing list with
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 25, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            It is not surprising you received no replies. CFL assembly factory is a
            niche topic. Hence it looks like there are no subscribers to this
            mailing list with CFL assembly experience. As an alternate do a Google
            search on the phrase "CFL assembly" and "Tesla machine".



            On 11/25/2012 8:29 AM, Alam wrote:
            >
            > This is surprising, I haven't received any reply so far? This has never
            > happened before.
            >
            > From: Alam [mailto:alam25@... <mailto:alam25%40joteel.com>]
            > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 10:11 AM
            > To: electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:electronics_101%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: Complete CFL and component testing, need help
            >
            > Hello Everyone, have not sent mail to the group for quite long. Got busy
            > with other works, specially starting business.
            >
            > I am trying to set up a CFL assemble factory. I will get the burner
            > and PCB
            > from supplier and assemble them.
            >
            > I need to know how can I test the burner, PCB and the complete CFL?
            >
            > For burner I have seen people using tesla machine to test it. How does
            > tesla
            > machine work?
            >
            > What is the parameter for measuring PCB?
            >
            > How can I measure current usage, wattage and power factor of complete CFL?
            >
            > I know that there are readymade machine for them, but I need to know the
            > basics of testing. It would be also appreciated if anyone can give me
            > solution with easily available test equipment.
            >
            > Anyone from similar experience?
            >
            > Regards
            >
            > Alam
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stefan Trethan
            Alternatively, hire an engineer who knows how to do this. I m not prepared to help with a commercial venture in my spare time, for free. I don t expect anyone
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 25, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Alternatively, hire an engineer who knows how to do this.
              I'm not prepared to help with a commercial venture in my spare time, for free.
              I don't expect anyone to solve my work here either.

              Good luck!

              ST

              P.S.: CFLs will soon be dead anyway, isn't it a bit late to get into
              that market? LEDs are the future.


              On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Howard Hansen <hrhan@...> wrote:
              > It is not surprising you received no replies. CFL assembly factory is a
              > niche topic. Hence it looks like there are no subscribers to this
              > mailing list with CFL assembly experience. As an alternate do a Google
              > search on the phrase "CFL assembly" and "Tesla machine".
              >
              >
            • Jong Kung
              Is that a serious prediction or just personal wish item? I only ask because here in America, there are like 10,000 cfl to 1 led on the market. Either way, I
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Is that a serious prediction or just personal wish item?

                I only ask because here in America, there are like 10,000 cfl to 1 led on the market.

                Either way, I have no dog in this fight. I like led just because it is led. But if led or cfl prevails, I'm ok with either technology.


                Jong

                P.S. few years ago, I got 17 led flashlight for $17 at Home Depot (an American hardware chain). It even came with batteries for them all. I left a flashlight in each car, each toolbox, each drawer, etc.. Now I see few flashlight with burnt led bulbs. The early led flashlight I bought for some $45 when they were new are still working (even though no where near as bright as modern flashlights). So these very low end flashlight have some real cheap quality led bulbs.

                On Nov 25, 2012, at 9:50 AM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

                > CFLs will soon be dead anyway, isn't it a bit late to get into
                > that market? LEDs are the future
              • Stefan Trethan
                This is a serious prediction. ST
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  This is a serious prediction.

                  ST

                  On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Jong Kung <jongkung01@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Is that a serious prediction or just personal wish item?
                  >
                  > I only ask because here in America, there are like 10,000 cfl to 1 led on the market.
                  >
                  > Either way, I have no dog in this fight. I like led just because it is led. But if led or cfl prevails, I'm ok with either technology.
                  >
                  >
                  > Jong
                  >
                • jeremy youngs
                  well i want to see led just because of the mercury .i shouldnt have to declare my home a toxic waste site because i dropped a bulb -- jeremy youngs [Non-text
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    well i want to see led just because of the mercury .i shouldnt have to
                    declare my home a toxic waste site because i dropped a bulb

                    --
                    jeremy youngs


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stefan Trethan
                    I have LEDs right here, right now, with 100 lumens / watt and a useful beam pattern. The power supply has 90% efficiency so they give ~90 lumens/watt as soon
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I have LEDs right here, right now, with 100 lumens / watt and a useful
                      beam pattern.
                      The power supply has 90% efficiency so they give ~90 lumens/watt as
                      soon as I hit the switch, not 15 minutes later.

                      The complexity of drive electronics is similar for CFL and LED (and
                      HID), and the cost for LEDs is coming down rapidly.

                      There is still some way to go, but if you are prepared to dispense
                      with the "screw in" replacement idea then LEDs already have a clear
                      advantage, for example in directional lighting.

                      I think we actually agree that CFLs will eventually be obsolete, but
                      maybe we disagree on when it will occur.
                      That might be the case because I don't have to wait for the stuff to
                      hit the shops, I get paid to make it happen.

                      ST


                      On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:16 PM, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:
                      > Stefan:
                      > LEDs are being heavily promoted for their efficiency, but have not
                      > yet achieved the same energy efficiency as the CFL which is being much
                      > maligned for the mercury in them. I would definitely NOT call the
                      > game in favor of the LED at this point.
                      > There are quite a number of people spreading the falsehood that
                      > LEDs are more efficient and it is becoming a "truism". I have yet to
                      > read an unbiased report that shows the lumens per watt of LEDs equalling
                      > that of the CFL. They are getting there though. Lumens per watt of
                      > an LED is 45. For a CFL it's 60. That gives the CFL a 30%
                      > advantage, and they are far cheaper! HID is the winner at 120 lumens
                      > per watt .... twice that of a CFL and 166% that of LEDs. HIDs are not
                      > suitable for household lighting for the most part....who want's high
                      > pressure sodium or mercury vapor in the living environment. There are
                      > claims of individual LEDs producing as much as 200 lumens per watt,
                      > which sounds good in comparison to the 60 lumens per watt of the CFL,
                      > but the rating of the CFL is "as installed", while the LED is a lab
                      > rating that does not take into account anything but the wattage directly
                      > to the LED, and the output directly from the LED. LEDs require
                      > supporting circuitry to work, (like CFLs), and lenses and diffusers to
                      > provide useful lighting. All this brings the actual real world
                      > efficiency way down to where the screw in replacement LED bulbs run 45
                      > lumens per watt.
                      > I am personally excited about LED lighting, and believe that
                      > ultimately it will become an efficient and cost effective
                      > solution.......... It isn't there yet! For the off grid home, those
                      > reels of LEDs you can fairly inexpensively on Ebay are interesting, but
                      > they have their liabilities.
                      >
                      >
                      > Howard
                    • StoneTool
                      Stefan: LEDs are being heavily promoted for their efficiency, but have not yet achieved the same energy efficiency as the CFL which is being much maligned for
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Stefan:
                        LEDs are being heavily promoted for their efficiency, but have not
                        yet achieved the same energy efficiency as the CFL which is being much
                        maligned for the mercury in them. I would definitely NOT call the
                        game in favor of the LED at this point.
                        There are quite a number of people spreading the falsehood that
                        LEDs are more efficient and it is becoming a "truism". I have yet to
                        read an unbiased report that shows the lumens per watt of LEDs equalling
                        that of the CFL. They are getting there though. Lumens per watt of
                        an LED is 45. For a CFL it's 60. That gives the CFL a 30%
                        advantage, and they are far cheaper! HID is the winner at 120 lumens
                        per watt .... twice that of a CFL and 166% that of LEDs. HIDs are not
                        suitable for household lighting for the most part....who want's high
                        pressure sodium or mercury vapor in the living environment. There are
                        claims of individual LEDs producing as much as 200 lumens per watt,
                        which sounds good in comparison to the 60 lumens per watt of the CFL,
                        but the rating of the CFL is "as installed", while the LED is a lab
                        rating that does not take into account anything but the wattage directly
                        to the LED, and the output directly from the LED. LEDs require
                        supporting circuitry to work, (like CFLs), and lenses and diffusers to
                        provide useful lighting. All this brings the actual real world
                        efficiency way down to where the screw in replacement LED bulbs run 45
                        lumens per watt.
                        I am personally excited about LED lighting, and believe that
                        ultimately it will become an efficient and cost effective
                        solution.......... It isn't there yet! For the off grid home, those
                        reels of LEDs you can fairly inexpensively on Ebay are interesting, but
                        they have their liabilities.


                        Howard

                        On 11/25/2012 12:50 PM, Stefan Trethan wrote:
                        > Alternatively, hire an engineer who knows how to do this.
                        > I'm not prepared to help with a commercial venture in my spare time, for free.
                        > I don't expect anyone to solve my work here either.
                        >
                        > Good luck!
                        >
                        > ST
                        >
                        > P.S.: CFLs will soon be dead anyway, isn't it a bit late to get into
                        > that market? LEDs are the future.
                        >
                        >
                        > On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Howard Hansen<hrhan@...> wrote:
                        >> It is not surprising you received no replies. CFL assembly factory is a
                        >> niche topic. Hence it looks like there are no subscribers to this
                        >> mailing list with CFL assembly experience. As an alternate do a Google
                        >> search on the phrase "CFL assembly" and "Tesla machine".
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Please trim excess when replyingYahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Kerim F
                        In my case, when LED products really become more practical than CFL for house lighting, I will know it in a matter of week; enough time to import them via DHL
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In my case, when LED products really become more practical than CFL for house lighting, I will know it in a matter of week; enough time to import them via DHL first... by one or more local traders ;) Now LEDs are used mostly for decorations and obviously for handheld lamps.

                          --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Stefan:
                          > LEDs are being heavily promoted for their efficiency, but have not
                          > yet achieved the same energy efficiency as the CFL which is being much
                          > maligned for the mercury in them. I would definitely NOT call the
                          > game in favor of the LED at this point.
                          > There are quite a number of people spreading the falsehood that
                          > LEDs are more efficient and it is becoming a "truism". I have yet to
                          > read an unbiased report that shows the lumens per watt of LEDs equalling
                          > that of the CFL. They are getting there though. Lumens per watt of
                          > an LED is 45. For a CFL it's 60. That gives the CFL a 30%
                          > advantage, and they are far cheaper! HID is the winner at 120 lumens
                          > per watt .... twice that of a CFL and 166% that of LEDs. HIDs are not
                          > suitable for household lighting for the most part....who want's high
                          > pressure sodium or mercury vapor in the living environment. There are
                          > claims of individual LEDs producing as much as 200 lumens per watt,
                          > which sounds good in comparison to the 60 lumens per watt of the CFL,
                          > but the rating of the CFL is "as installed", while the LED is a lab
                          > rating that does not take into account anything but the wattage directly
                          > to the LED, and the output directly from the LED. LEDs require
                          > supporting circuitry to work, (like CFLs), and lenses and diffusers to
                          > provide useful lighting. All this brings the actual real world
                          > efficiency way down to where the screw in replacement LED bulbs run 45
                          > lumens per watt.
                          > I am personally excited about LED lighting, and believe that
                          > ultimately it will become an efficient and cost effective
                          > solution.......... It isn't there yet! For the off grid home, those
                          > reels of LEDs you can fairly inexpensively on Ebay are interesting, but
                          > they have their liabilities.
                          >
                          >
                          > Howard
                          >
                          > On 11/25/2012 12:50 PM, Stefan Trethan wrote:
                          > > Alternatively, hire an engineer who knows how to do this.
                          > > I'm not prepared to help with a commercial venture in my spare time, for free.
                          > > I don't expect anyone to solve my work here either.
                          > >
                          > > Good luck!
                          > >
                          > > ST
                          > >
                          > > P.S.: CFLs will soon be dead anyway, isn't it a bit late to get into
                          > > that market? LEDs are the future.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Howard Hansen<hrhan@...> wrote:
                          > >> It is not surprising you received no replies. CFL assembly factory is a
                          > >> niche topic. Hence it looks like there are no subscribers to this
                          > >> mailing list with CFL assembly experience. As an alternate do a Google
                          > >> search on the phrase "CFL assembly" and "Tesla machine".
                        • Scrolling8
                          Many cities are trying out and liking led replacements for street lighting and traffic lights; greatly reducing both energy costs and maintenance costs by a
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Many cities are trying out and liking led replacements for street lighting and traffic lights; greatly reducing both energy costs and maintenance costs by a number high enough to offset the increased cost of the fixture in three years.

                            At the industrial plant that I service we have replaced 10 to 20 % of our 400 and 1000 watt metal halide fixtures reducing the power usage for lighting by 80% on those areas affected.

                            If the results in our plant are any indication led lighting has already arrived.

                            Don Halverson - Industrial electrician



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
                            To: Electronics_101 <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Mon, Nov 26, 2012 10:28 am
                            Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] RE: Complete CFL and component testing, need help





                            I have LEDs right here, right now, with 100 lumens / watt and a useful
                            beam pattern.
                            The power supply has 90% efficiency so they give ~90 lumens/watt as
                            soon as I hit the switch, not 15 minutes later.

                            The complexity of drive electronics is similar for CFL and LED (and
                            HID), and the cost for LEDs is coming down rapidly.

                            There is still some way to go, but if you are prepared to dispense
                            with the "screw in" replacement idea then LEDs already have a clear
                            advantage, for example in directional lighting.

                            I think we actually agree that CFLs will eventually be obsolete, but
                            maybe we disagree on when it will occur.
                            That might be the case because I don't have to wait for the stuff to
                            hit the shops, I get paid to make it happen.

                            ST

                            On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:16 PM, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:
                            > Stefan:
                            > LEDs are being heavily promoted for their efficiency, but have not
                            > yet achieved the same energy efficiency as the CFL which is being much
                            > maligned for the mercury in them. I would definitely NOT call the
                            > game in favor of the LED at this point.
                            > There are quite a number of people spreading the falsehood that
                            > LEDs are more efficient and it is becoming a "truism". I have yet to
                            > read an unbiased report that shows the lumens per watt of LEDs equalling
                            > that of the CFL. They are getting there though. Lumens per watt of
                            > an LED is 45. For a CFL it's 60. That gives the CFL a 30%
                            > advantage, and they are far cheaper! HID is the winner at 120 lumens
                            > per watt .... twice that of a CFL and 166% that of LEDs. HIDs are not
                            > suitable for household lighting for the most part....who want's high
                            > pressure sodium or mercury vapor in the living environment. There are
                            > claims of individual LEDs producing as much as 200 lumens per watt,
                            > which sounds good in comparison to the 60 lumens per watt of the CFL,
                            > but the rating of the CFL is "as installed", while the LED is a lab
                            > rating that does not take into account anything but the wattage directly
                            > to the LED, and the output directly from the LED. LEDs require
                            > supporting circuitry to work, (like CFLs), and lenses and diffusers to
                            > provide useful lighting. All this brings the actual real world
                            > efficiency way down to where the screw in replacement LED bulbs run 45
                            > lumens per watt.
                            > I am personally excited about LED lighting, and believe that
                            > ultimately it will become an efficient and cost effective
                            > solution.......... It isn't there yet! For the off grid home, those
                            > reels of LEDs you can fairly inexpensively on Ebay are interesting, but
                            > they have their liabilities.
                            >
                            >
                            > Howard








                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Barry Savage
                            ... ==== I think you and Stefan are correct. To make a prediction about the crossover point, it wouldn t be at all difficult to see where the trends cross in
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On 11/26/2012 9:08 AM, Scrolling8 wrote:
                              >
                              > Many cities are trying out and liking led replacements for street
                              > lighting and traffic lights; greatly reducing both energy costs and
                              > maintenance costs by a number high enough to offset the increased cost
                              > of the fixture in three years.
                              >
                              > At the industrial plant that I service we have replaced 10 to 20 % of
                              > our 400 and 1000 watt metal halide fixtures reducing the power usage
                              > for lighting by 80% on those areas affected.
                              >
                              > If the results in our plant are any indication led lighting has
                              > already arrived.
                              >
                              > Don Halverson - Industrial electrician
                              >
                              ====
                              I think you and Stefan are correct. To make a prediction about the
                              crossover point, it wouldn't be at all difficult to see where the trends
                              cross in both production and consumption of each product. The trend
                              lines are quite likely to be non-linear and perhaps even polynomial.
                              But regression equations will show the crossover points quite precisely.

                              To make a fair comparison, you need at least the following controls:
                              -- Controlling for Watts/lumen
                              -- Controlling for radius of illumination
                              -- Controlling for MTBF
                              -- Controlling for the embodied energy of each product.
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_energy

                              Barry




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Stefan Trethan
                              CFL production will be around for some time to come, just as incandescent production is still going, but it is going to decline. Perhaps Alam is well aware of
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                CFL production will be around for some time to come, just as
                                incandescent production is still going, but it is going to decline.
                                Perhaps Alam is well aware of that and just wants to use the CFL as a
                                foot in the door for future LED business.

                                Personally, I am not going to buy another CFL, ever.
                                Yes, drop-in LED lights are still expensive (the good ones, such as
                                LG, Philips, etc. with the remote phosphor), but I'll pay over
                                suffering the frustration of turning on a CFL in a cold room and only
                                getting a dim glow. Low-use lights will just stay incandescent until
                                LEDs are economical in such applications.

                                ST


                                On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Barry Savage <sofistic@...> wrote:

                                > ====
                                > I think you and Stefan are correct. To make a prediction about the
                                > crossover point, it wouldn't be at all difficult to see where the trends
                                > cross in both production and consumption of each product. The trend
                                > lines are quite likely to be non-linear and perhaps even polynomial.
                                > But regression equations will show the crossover points quite precisely.
                                >
                                > To make a fair comparison, you need at least the following controls:
                                > -- Controlling for Watts/lumen
                                > -- Controlling for radius of illumination
                                > -- Controlling for MTBF
                                > -- Controlling for the embodied energy of each product.
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_energy
                                >
                                > Barry
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Please trim excess when replyingYahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • StoneTool
                                Stefan: I ll believe it when I see it on store shelves and the reviews back up the claims..... I m still waiting for that 100 mpg carburetor ;-)..... Howard
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Stefan:
                                  I'll believe it when I see it on store shelves and the reviews back
                                  up the claims..... I'm still waiting for that 100 mpg carburetor ;-).....



                                  Howard

                                  On 11/26/2012 09:00 AM, Stefan Trethan wrote:
                                  > I have LEDs right here, right now, with 100 lumens / watt and a useful
                                  > beam pattern.
                                  > The power supply has 90% efficiency so they give ~90 lumens/watt as
                                  > soon as I hit the switch, not 15 minutes later.
                                  >
                                  > The complexity of drive electronics is similar for CFL and LED (and
                                  > HID), and the cost for LEDs is coming down rapidly.
                                  >
                                  > There is still some way to go, but if you are prepared to dispense
                                  > with the "screw in" replacement idea then LEDs already have a clear
                                  > advantage, for example in directional lighting.
                                  >
                                  > I think we actually agree that CFLs will eventually be obsolete, but
                                  > maybe we disagree on when it will occur.
                                  > That might be the case because I don't have to wait for the stuff to
                                  > hit the shops, I get paid to make it happen.
                                  >
                                  > ST
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:16 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                                  >> Stefan:
                                  >> LEDs are being heavily promoted for their efficiency, but have not
                                  >> yet achieved the same energy efficiency as the CFL which is being much
                                  >> maligned for the mercury in them. I would definitely NOT call the
                                  >> game in favor of the LED at this point.
                                  >> There are quite a number of people spreading the falsehood that
                                  >> LEDs are more efficient and it is becoming a "truism". I have yet to
                                  >> read an unbiased report that shows the lumens per watt of LEDs equalling
                                  >> that of the CFL. They are getting there though. Lumens per watt of
                                  >> an LED is 45. For a CFL it's 60. That gives the CFL a 30%
                                  >> advantage, and they are far cheaper! HID is the winner at 120 lumens
                                  >> per watt .... twice that of a CFL and 166% that of LEDs. HIDs are not
                                  >> suitable for household lighting for the most part....who want's high
                                  >> pressure sodium or mercury vapor in the living environment. There are
                                  >> claims of individual LEDs producing as much as 200 lumens per watt,
                                  >> which sounds good in comparison to the 60 lumens per watt of the CFL,
                                  >> but the rating of the CFL is "as installed", while the LED is a lab
                                  >> rating that does not take into account anything but the wattage directly
                                  >> to the LED, and the output directly from the LED. LEDs require
                                  >> supporting circuitry to work, (like CFLs), and lenses and diffusers to
                                  >> provide useful lighting. All this brings the actual real world
                                  >> efficiency way down to where the screw in replacement LED bulbs run 45
                                  >> lumens per watt.
                                  >> I am personally excited about LED lighting, and believe that
                                  >> ultimately it will become an efficient and cost effective
                                  >> solution.......... It isn't there yet! For the off grid home, those
                                  >> reels of LEDs you can fairly inexpensively on Ebay are interesting, but
                                  >> they have their liabilities.
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Howard
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Please trim excess when replyingYahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Jong Kung
                                  Stone, There are guys who made their cars do 100 mpg. You can find it on google search. It isn t so much the carb but the whole car being ultra light and
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Stone,


                                    There are guys who made their cars do 100 mpg. You can find it on google search. It isn't so much the carb but the whole car being ultra light and aerodynamic. I just googled 100 mpg car and instead got 1,000 mpg cars:

                                    https://www.google.com/search?q=1000+mpg+car&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

                                    Luckily for modern day electronic ignition and electronics fuel injection system. Our cars no longer just dump fuel into the engine but meters the fuel on hair edge of ignition detonation.


                                    Jong


                                    On Nov 26, 2012, at 10:36 AM, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:

                                    > I'm still waiting for that 100 mpg carburetor ;-).....


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • smilingcat90254
                                    Then they burn out the electronic before the bulb goes bad. CFL bulbs on the market DO NOT last the 5 years they claim. I ve taken several different brands
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Then they burn out the electronic before the bulb goes bad. CFL bulbs on the market DO NOT last the 5 years they claim. I've taken several different brands apart and lo and behold, all the circuits are the same. hmm must be using the reference design as is.

                                      Electronics in them are garbage!! Simple yes but do not meet the home environment. I hate the dim glow when you first turn it on. It gets worse with age.

                                      We will see what happens to LED lights once the manufacturing moves to someplace very cheap and without much QA.

                                      smilingcat

                                      --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      ...

                                      frustration of turning on a CFL in a cold room and only
                                      > getting a dim glow. Low-use lights will just stay incandescent until
                                      > LEDs are economical in such applications.
                                      >
                                      ....
                                    • AlienRelics
                                      Sigh... sure, if you are driving a hybrid and ignore the energy you put into it when you charge it every night. And I can find 3,570,000 hits for Elvis
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Sigh... sure, if you are driving a hybrid and ignore the energy you put into it when you charge it every night.

                                        And I can find 3,570,000 hits for "Elvis lives". I also remember a couple of guys in the '70s who claimed to have a car running on 9V batteries (10,000 of them, I think) that also charged the batteries while running.

                                        Steve Greenfield AE7HD

                                        --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Jong Kung <jongkung01@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Stone,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > There are guys who made their cars do 100 mpg. You can find it on google search. It isn't so much the carb but the whole car being ultra light and aerodynamic. I just googled 100 mpg car and instead got 1,000 mpg cars:
                                        >
                                        > https://www.google.com/search?q=1000+mpg+car&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari
                                        >
                                        > Luckily for modern day electronic ignition and electronics fuel injection system. Our cars no longer just dump fuel into the engine but meters the fuel on hair edge of ignition detonation.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Jong
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On Nov 26, 2012, at 10:36 AM, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > I'm still waiting for that 100 mpg carburetor ;-).....
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • StoneTool
                                        Is this the let s hate CFs forum? I have many of them, and experience a percentage of failures, but my experience is very different. I find them highly
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Is this the "let's hate CFs" forum? I have many of them, and
                                          experience a percentage of failures, but my experience is very
                                          different. I find them highly reliable. The warm up time does NOT
                                          change with age in my experience, and is a trivial matter of a few
                                          minutes. They have on the whole served me very well. I buy FEIT brand
                                          from Lowes on sale by the case at a dollar a bulb. ONLY the daylight
                                          bulbs, not the soft white. Of the FEIT brand bulbs I have bought over
                                          the last 3 years not one has failed. I purchased a couple of the
                                          large ones.... I'm not sure what brand... from Home Depot. They are
                                          about the size of a pineapple and produce equivalent light to a 250 watt
                                          incandescent. One of those failed, and at 15$ a crack I will NOT buy
                                          another. I used one T and two Ys to replace the one large bulb with 4
                                          24 watt bulbs which throw more light and cost only a dollar a bulb.
                                          It will be a LONG time before I abandon the CF for LED bulbs unless
                                          the efficiency goes up and the price goes down. I have installed LED
                                          strips (6') and had failed sections in them........ LEDs are NOT the
                                          perfect lighting system. Let's be realistic here..........


                                          Howard

                                          On 11/26/2012 03:16 PM, smilingcat90254 wrote:
                                          > Then they burn out the electronic before the bulb goes bad. CFL bulbs on the market DO NOT last the 5 years they claim. I've taken several different brands apart and lo and behold, all the circuits are the same. hmm must be using the reference design as is.
                                          >
                                          > Electronics in them are garbage!! Simple yes but do not meet the home environment. I hate the dim glow when you first turn it on. It gets worse with age.
                                          >
                                          > We will see what happens to LED lights once the manufacturing moves to someplace very cheap and without much QA.
                                          >
                                          > smilingcat
                                          >
                                          > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
                                          > ...
                                          >
                                          > frustration of turning on a CFL in a cold room and only
                                          >> getting a dim glow. Low-use lights will just stay incandescent until
                                          >> LEDs are economical in such applications.
                                          >>
                                          > ....
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Please trim excess when replyingYahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • smilingcat90254
                                          No. I don t hate CFL. My experience with them have been bad. Or I just keep scraping the bottom of the barrel for em. Technically they should not have the
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            No. I don't hate CFL. My experience with them have been bad. Or I just keep scraping the bottom of the barrel for 'em. Technically they should not have the problems I have encountered. I blame more on the production and manufacturing.

                                            Lets see, my old mixer uses metal gears. Then Hobart sold the brand. The new ones have nylon gears and wonder why they don't last. but they are half the price.

                                            My partner's sewing machines were built in the 60's and 70's. They have hardened steel gears, cams... The new ones have plastic or cheap metal not hardened. Again the new machines are third of the price.

                                            I popped open to see what was under the hood of a mill I was using and I found nylon gear. WTF?? It's supposed to be milling stainless steel. Which is tougher steel... nylon... steel... nylon... They were sloppy machines with tolerances only down to two mills or so..

                                            These are the things that makes me go bonkers and CFL manufacturing is one of them.

                                            LEDs have their haz mat problems but no one seems to bother talking about it. Only advantage is that mechanically they should be far more rugged than CFL. But then again who would be subjecting a CFL bulb to a 10,000G acceleration?

                                            ----------
                                            let's talk circuits instead. Maybe I should comment on the duty cycle based LED drivers. Don't see why the guy was having such poor power saving. Why use a 555 timer. I think I could design a 5uA Icc oscillator with variable duty cycle/frequency. Surely it would be switching faster than 20-50 or even 100Hz. I will get a migrane if the LED is switching even at 60Hz.

                                            sincerely,

                                            smilingcat

                                            --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Is this the "let's hate CFs" forum? ...
                                          • Barry Savage
                                            I don t understand. We have CFL s throughout the house, and we are transitioning to LED s when the color looks comfortable. Change happens. We are adapting
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I don't understand. We have CFL's throughout the house, and we are
                                              transitioning to LED's when the color looks comfortable.

                                              Change happens. We are adapting when the time is right. After the
                                              first generation of CFL's we have no problem with the turn-on time or
                                              the brightness or illumination spread. The one in my drafting lamp has
                                              lasted over three years and shows no significant drop in illumination
                                              and runs about 16 hours per day.

                                              The MTBF of LED's is much greater than CFL's so the lifetime cost will
                                              be much lower.
                                              So, why is this a discussion of significance at all?

                                              As for nylon gears, how long has your printer lasted? I would expect
                                              that it would be longer than your computer. They are tough as hell and
                                              last a long time. Complex motherboards and PV can be printed as cheaply
                                              as paper books in the old days. Not only that, they are made in
                                              lights-off factories: no humans necessary.

                                              Let's not get all nostalgic about it and look at the data. Cars last
                                              longer, and I have hardware that is still running but the newer software
                                              won't run on it anymore. Time to send it to recycle and get over the
                                              nostalgia.

                                              I used to build stuff like the old Collins equipment; It was beautiful.
                                              Now everything and more is in a single chip. Not only that, it uses
                                              less power and does more for one-tenth or one-hundredth the price. So
                                              it is time to get over it.

                                              Perhaps we need to take some lessons from the second law of
                                              thermodynamics, or, it's corollary from Paul Simon, "Everything put
                                              together falls apart."

                                              Barry


                                              On 11/26/2012 8:06 PM, smilingcat90254 wrote:
                                              >
                                              > No. I don't hate CFL. My experience with them have been bad. Or I just
                                              > keep scraping the bottom of the barrel for 'em. Technically they
                                              > should not have the problems I have encountered. I blame more on the
                                              > production and manufacturing.
                                              >
                                              > Lets see, my old mixer uses metal gears. Then Hobart sold the brand.
                                              > The new ones have nylon gears and wonder why they don't last. but they
                                              > are half the price.
                                              >
                                              > My partner's sewing machines were built in the 60's and 70's. They
                                              > have hardened steel gears, cams... The new ones have plastic or cheap
                                              > metal not hardened. Again the new machines are third of the price.
                                              >
                                              > I popped open to see what was under the hood of a mill I was using and
                                              > I found nylon gear. WTF?? It's supposed to be milling stainless steel.
                                              > Which is tougher steel... nylon... steel... nylon... They were sloppy
                                              > machines with tolerances only down to two mills or so..
                                              >
                                              > These are the things that makes me go bonkers and CFL manufacturing is
                                              > one of them.
                                              >
                                              > LEDs have their haz mat problems but no one seems to bother talking
                                              > about it. Only advantage is that mechanically they should be far more
                                              > rugged than CFL. But then again who would be subjecting a CFL bulb to
                                              > a 10,000G acceleration?
                                              >
                                              > ----------
                                              > let's talk circuits instead. Maybe I should comment on the duty cycle
                                              > based LED drivers. Don't see why the guy was having such poor power
                                              > saving. Why use a 555 timer. I think I could design a 5uA Icc
                                              > oscillator with variable duty cycle/frequency. Surely it would be
                                              > switching faster than 20-50 or even 100Hz. I will get a migrane if the
                                              > LED is switching even at 60Hz.
                                              >
                                              > sincerely,
                                              >
                                              > smilingcat
                                              >



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Jong Kung
                                              I thought so to but on closer examination some of them really do go that far but they are hardly a car. Some of them are actually contest winners (longest on 1
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Nov 26, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I thought so to but on closer examination some of them really do go that far but they are hardly a car.

                                                Some of them are actually contest winners (longest on 1 gallon type contest). These aren't all hoax


                                                Jong

                                                On Nov 26, 2012, at 5:19 PM, "AlienRelics" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

                                                > Sigh... sure, if you are driving a hybrid and ignore the energy you put into it when you charge it every night.
                                              • Stefan Trethan
                                                You can already buy very crappy LED lamps....... ST On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 11:16 PM, smilingcat90254
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Nov 27, 2012
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  You can already buy very crappy LED lamps.......

                                                  ST

                                                  On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 11:16 PM, smilingcat90254
                                                  <smilingcat@...> wrote:
                                                  > Then they burn out the electronic before the bulb goes bad. CFL bulbs on the market DO NOT last the 5 years they claim. I've taken several different brands apart and lo and behold, all the circuits are the same. hmm must be using the reference design as is.
                                                  >
                                                  > Electronics in them are garbage!! Simple yes but do not meet the home environment. I hate the dim glow when you first turn it on. It gets worse with age.
                                                  >
                                                  > We will see what happens to LED lights once the manufacturing moves to someplace very cheap and without much QA.
                                                  >
                                                  > smilingcat
                                                • AlienRelics
                                                  But it is misleading to say that people are getting 100mpg or 1000mpg from their car . There are lots of people who will sell you magnets to place on your
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Nov 27, 2012
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    But it is misleading to say that people are getting 100mpg or 1000mpg from their "car".

                                                    There are lots of people who will sell you magnets to place on your fuel line or devices to "burn water" and boost your gas mileage to 100mpg, supposedly.

                                                    Steve Greenfield AE7HD

                                                    --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Jong Kung <jongkung01@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > I thought so to but on closer examination some of them really do go that far but they are hardly a car.
                                                    >
                                                    > Some of them are actually contest winners (longest on 1 gallon type contest). These aren't all hoax
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Jong
                                                    >
                                                    > On Nov 26, 2012, at 5:19 PM, "AlienRelics" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > Sigh... sure, if you are driving a hybrid and ignore the energy you put into it when you charge it every night.
                                                    >
                                                  • Jong Kung
                                                    I suspect that for many, the whole electric grid / source is a mystery. Translation: they would never imagine that burning some fuel is how electricity is
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Nov 27, 2012
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      I suspect that for many, the whole electric grid / source is a mystery. Translation: they would never imagine that burning some fuel is how electricity is generated - they just don't know and don't care.

                                                      Somebody in my church bought his second Toyota Prius. The electricity on Oahu (hawaii) is about 30 to 35 cents per KWH. That's not cheap. Even so he says he is saving money.

                                                      I'm not sure if he really did the math. I once wrote a spreadsheet to calculate how many miles you have to drive to recoup cost of the money paid to buy a newer car. I was actually interested in buying a used motorcycle. Even at modest $4,000 for cost of a motorcycle and my car was getting just 25 mpg (as given by built in computer) and the motorcycle was getting about 60 mpg, it took some 30,000 - 40,000 miles to recoup the original $4k cost of motorcycle. This didn't take into account none of the cost of having a second vehicle. So given that many modern small cars can do about 35mpg and up, I don't know if the pricy hybrid is worth the extra cost.

                                                      Here in hawaii alternate energy is pretty mainstream. You can find a lot of solar water heaters and solar PVC cells on the roof top. Even so there's a lot of smoke and mirror salesmanship. They won't say what is the interest rate for the loan until it is approved. They seems to get away with such tactics because buyers are doing the math.

                                                      So to answer your question, I think most people are not thinking things through when they buy into these systems (hybrid, solar, etc.).

                                                      But is that what it takes to generate the momentum? I don't know.


                                                      Jong

                                                      On Nov 27, 2012, at 6:50 AM, Randy <randy@...> wrote:

                                                      > I just wonder how much
                                                      > thought they put into it.
                                                    • Rick Sparber
                                                      Jong, I looked very hard at PV for my home here in Arizona. Bottom line - I don t have one. IMHO, the real reason people buy hybrids is to make a statement
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Nov 27, 2012
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Jong,

                                                        I looked very hard at PV for my home here in Arizona. Bottom line - I don't
                                                        have one.

                                                        IMHO, the real reason people buy hybrids is to make a statement about their
                                                        dedication to "green". Nothing wrong with that. Just don't try to convince
                                                        me it saves money.

                                                        I could believe that solar domestic hot water could be cheaper than electric
                                                        hot water heaters in Hawaii. Here in Arizona solar hot water systems beat
                                                        electric but not natural gas.

                                                        Rick

                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                                                        [mailto:Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jong Kung
                                                        Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:11 AM
                                                        To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Re: Complete CFL and component testing, need
                                                        help



                                                        I suspect that for many, the whole electric grid / source is a mystery.
                                                        Translation: they would never imagine that burning some fuel is how
                                                        electricity is generated - they just don't know and don't care.

                                                        Somebody in my church bought his second Toyota Prius. The electricity on
                                                        Oahu (hawaii) is about 30 to 35 cents per KWH. That's not cheap. Even so he
                                                        says he is saving money.

                                                        I'm not sure if he really did the math. I once wrote a spreadsheet to
                                                        calculate how many miles you have to drive to recoup cost of the money paid
                                                        to buy a newer car. I was actually interested in buying a used motorcycle.
                                                        Even at modest $4,000 for cost of a motorcycle and my car was getting just
                                                        25 mpg (as given by built in computer) and the motorcycle was getting about
                                                        60 mpg, it took some 30,000 - 40,000 miles to recoup the original $4k cost
                                                        of motorcycle. This didn't take into account none of the cost of having a
                                                        second vehicle. So given that many modern small cars can do about 35mpg and
                                                        up, I don't know if the pricy hybrid is worth the extra cost.

                                                        Here in hawaii alternate energy is pretty mainstream. You can find a lot of
                                                        solar water heaters and solar PVC cells on the roof top. Even so there's a
                                                        lot of smoke and mirror salesmanship. They won't say what is the interest
                                                        rate for the loan until it is approved. They seems to get away with such
                                                        tactics because buyers are doing the math.

                                                        So to answer your question, I think most people are not thinking things
                                                        through when they buy into these systems (hybrid, solar, etc.).

                                                        But is that what it takes to generate the momentum? I don't know.


                                                        Jong
                                                      • Randy
                                                        I wonder how many of the hybrid and plug-in car buyers realize that a goodly percentage of the electricity that goes into their car comes from economical coal.
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Nov 27, 2012
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          I wonder how many of the hybrid and plug-in car buyers realize that a
                                                          goodly percentage of the electricity
                                                          that goes into their car comes from economical coal. I wonder if they
                                                          would buy a car that actually burned
                                                          coal, even if it could be done as cleanly as power plants generate power.
                                                          No, I don't think coal is the awful monster that the "green" crowd
                                                          paints it as, I just wonder how much
                                                          thought they put into it.

                                                          Randy

                                                          On 11/26/2012 7:19 PM, AlienRelics wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Sigh... sure, if you are driving a hybrid and ignore the energy you
                                                          > put into it when you charge it every night.
                                                          >
                                                          > And I can find 3,570,000 hits for "Elvis lives". I also remember a
                                                          > couple of guys in the '70s who claimed to have a car running on 9V
                                                          > batteries (10,000 of them, I think) that also charged the batteries
                                                          > while running.
                                                          >
                                                          > Steve Greenfield AE7HD
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > <mailto:Electronics_101%40yahoogroups.com>, Jong Kung <jongkung01@...>
                                                          > wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Stone,
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > There are guys who made their cars do 100 mpg. You can find it on
                                                          > google search. It isn't so much the carb but the whole car being ultra
                                                          > light and aerodynamic. I just googled 100 mpg car and instead got
                                                          > 1,000 mpg cars:
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > https://www.google.com/search?q=1000+mpg+car&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari
                                                          > <https://www.google.com/search?q=1000+mpg+car&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari>
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Luckily for modern day electronic ignition and electronics fuel
                                                          > injection system. Our cars no longer just dump fuel into the engine
                                                          > but meters the fuel on hair edge of ignition detonation.
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Jong
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > On Nov 26, 2012, at 10:36 AM, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > > I'm still waiting for that 100 mpg carburetor ;-).....
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                          >



                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • Barry Savage
                                                          ... ======= I don t think it is about whether or not one is in the green crowd or not, but about efficiency and design. The OP s question was about testing
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Nov 27, 2012
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            On 11/27/2012 8:50 AM, Randy wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > I wonder how many of the hybrid and plug-in car buyers realize that a
                                                            > goodly percentage of the electricity
                                                            > that goes into their car comes from economical coal. I wonder if they
                                                            > would buy a car that actually burned
                                                            > coal, even if it could be done as cleanly as power plants generate power.
                                                            > No, I don't think coal is the awful monster that the "green" crowd
                                                            > paints it as, I just wonder how much
                                                            > thought they put into it.
                                                            >
                                                            > Randy
                                                            >
                                                            =======
                                                            I don't think it is about whether or not one is in the "green crowd" or
                                                            not, but about efficiency and design.
                                                            The OP's question was about testing CFL's and their components.
                                                            Then the conversation became expanded to comparing them to other
                                                            lighting methods.

                                                            And from there it drifted off to various ways of using energy and the
                                                            sources of that energy. Along the way, we discussed the quality of
                                                            components and manufacturing methods.

                                                            But, it seems to me that to do a complete testing of any device, the
                                                            analysis should include end-to-end testing.
                                                            That includes the energy it took to extract the raw materials to
                                                            refining them to usable material, to good design and manufacturing, to
                                                            quality control, to the cost of marketing, the expected lifespan of the
                                                            device, and finally their disposal at the end of their life-cycle.

                                                            The general term for this approach is embodied energy : to look at the
                                                            energy it took throughout the life cycle of the device.
                                                            If the device malfunctions or breaks before the end of it's expected
                                                            life cycle, much of the embodied energy is wasted, and the marginal
                                                            utility is lost.

                                                            That just makes good sense to me.

                                                            There is a very good book I keep on the shelf above my desk. It was
                                                            written a long time ago, and it isn't about electronics but about good
                                                            design of anything.
                                                            The title is "The Design of Everyday Things" by Donald Norman, and it
                                                            gives examples of good and bad design.

                                                            Full disclosure: I am a retired sociologist and statistician, and
                                                            electronics has been one of my hobbies since I was a kid. I taught QC
                                                            methods to aspiring electronics engineers off and on throughout my career.

                                                            Barry





                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          • Jong Kung
                                                            Rick, ... I don t know that s the reason. I suspect there are a million reason. Not everybody is rich enough to buy one just to make a statement. But I do
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Nov 27, 2012
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Rick,


                                                              > >>> MHO, the real reason people buy hybrids is to make a statement about their
                                                              > dedication to "green". Nothing wrong with that. Just don't try to convince
                                                              > me it saves money.


                                                              I don't know that's the reason. I suspect there are a million reason. Not everybody is rich enough to buy one just to make a statement.

                                                              But I do agree many are mislead about the savings.

                                                              ======

                                                              > >>> I could believe that solar domestic hot water could be cheaper than electric
                                                              > hot water heaters in Hawaii.

                                                              The system is very simple here. There's no need for complicated heat exchanger. Just run the cold water through the solar heating pipes. Unlike the rest of America, the temp never gets down to freezing.

                                                              Many people make their own and just lay down pipes or hoses on the roof and that's enough to preheat the water.

                                                              What's even better (for consumers) is that sometime the local military base upgrades their solar heating system and sell off perfectly good working (used) system for next to nothing. Now you know where that extra billion in the military budget went too.


                                                              Jong

                                                              On Nov 27, 2012, at 4:56 AM, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:

                                                              > IMHO, the real reason people buy hybrids is to make a statement about their
                                                              > dedication to "green". Nothing wrong with that. Just don't try to convince
                                                              > me it saves money.
                                                              >
                                                              > I could believe that solar domestic hot water could be cheaper than electric
                                                              > hot water heaters in Hawaii. Here in Arizona solar hot water systems beat
                                                              > electric but not natural gas.
                                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.