## Re: [Electronics_101] Re: Resistive wire

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• Remember, too, that the resistance changes as the wire heats up. Peace, Scotty ... From: To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com Sent: 1/2/04 12:15:53 PM Subject:
Message 1 of 28 , Jan 2, 2004
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Remember, too, that the resistance changes as the wire heats up.

Peace,
Scotty

----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 1/2/04 12:15:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Re: Resistive wire

One possible way to get the resistance of the section of wire is to use an amp meter and a voltmeter.

Assumming you made this 0.01 ohm resistor, when 3 amps are put through that resistance 30 mV should be seen accross the 0.01 ohm current sense resistor (hunk of wire).

So if the amp meter reads 3 amps, and you get a voltage reading of 73 mV across the current sense resistor the resistance is about 0.024 ohms. 73mv / 3 A = 0.024

The above assumes the good condition/quality of meter leads connections etc.

There are benchtop 4-wire ohm meters uses specifially for such low ohm measurements, but not on the bench of most.

In a message dated 1/2/2004 11:57:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, dave_mucha@... writes:
Thanks,

Didn't know about that as a reference.

So, my next question is about measuring very low resistances.

Is there a simple method ?

It seems that using a low voltage and measuring a loop, then added
said resistance wire to the loop and measuring again, it would be
rather easy to get an idea what the resistance would be.

Dave

• Request part number for HEXfet s with current measuring capability. Norm ... From: Dave Mucha To:
Message 2 of 28 , Jan 2, 2004
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Request part number for HEXfet's with current measuring capability.

Norm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...>
To: <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 11:23 AM
Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Resistive wire

> --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "dangermouse"
> <dangermouse1956@g...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> > To: <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 9:03 AM
> > Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Resistive wire
> >
> >
> > > All wire is resistive, and there is a chart floating around out
> there
> > > that lists the resistance per foot of common gauge wires.
> >
> > I didn't mean to say otherwise--you're right of course. I was
> looking for
> > my copper wire tables myself, but can't find them. Based on some
> stuff I
> > found on the web, .01 ohm may not be so hard to get with copper
> wire--but
> > insuring that it will pass 3 amps without getting hot is another
> matter.
> > I'm not familiar enough with wire sizing to know.
> >
> > > I used to have the chart, and I got that off a link from another
> > > list. (BasicStamps) I'll check them to see if they know.
> > >
> > > Dave
> >
> > Thanks, I'd appreciate that.
> >
> > -DM
>
> I started on a spreadsheet and realized that the load carrying
> capacity of a wire is dependant on the heat that will be generated
>
> So, while a 1 watt load on a #12 wire is not going to heat the wire
> to any signifigant amount, it very well may heat a #40 to a
> temperature to cause failure. ( I'm thinking fuses are based on this
> concept)
>
> I'm at a loss of how to figure a safe capacity of current in a wire.
>
> There is where those HEXfet's we discussed some time ago were
> attractive. The additional leg offered a simple method of measurring
> current.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Electronics_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
• Thanks to all for all the suggestions. Dave, thanks much for the wire tables. I probably should have mentioned that the application is nothing more complicated
Message 3 of 28 , Jan 2, 2004
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Thanks to all for all the suggestions.

Dave, thanks much for the wire tables.

I probably should have mentioned that the application is nothing more
complicated than an ammeter for a DC bench supply, so inductance isn't too
much of a concern. Heating is, of course.

Yes, I saw those 1% .01 ohm resistors, and they're not expensive (about
\$1.30US in Mouser), but my thought was to calibrate the meter, I would
measure the supply's output with a calibrated ammeter, then trim the shunt
until my meter reads 3.00A. 1% is plenty accurate enough, but even a solder
connection can throw the shunt assembly's value off considerably, and I'd
like to be able to trim it so that I can use any precalibrated meter to read
the current. But that's just one idea.

Thanks again to all!

-DM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...>
To: <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 2:03 PM
Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Resistive wire

> --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "dangermouse"
> <dangermouse1956@g...> wrote:
> > Does anyone know of a good source (in the USA) of inexpensive
> resistive wire?
> >
> > I'm looking for something I can use for a current-sensing shunt,
> and I'm aiming for .01 ohms (so that 3A = 30mV). The reason I'm
> looking for wire instead of a .01-ohm resistor is so I can calibrate
> it by simply shortening or lengthening it. Oh--and it would sure
> make things easier if it were solderable, too.
> >
> > Thanks for any ideas.
>
> Seems 16 ga is around 0.004ohms and lists for about 3.69 amps.
>
> It would seem that you can run multiple lines and then just measure
> one, but then I don't know how accurate your system needs to be.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > -DM
> >
> > "We are the music-makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams."
> O'Shaunessy as cited in "Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Electronics_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
• ... HEXFET s have a 4th terminal that outpust 1% of the source current for the device. Check Digi-Key for the parts ratings for your project. Dave ... out ...
Message 4 of 28 , Jan 2, 2004
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--- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Norm Carlberg"
<normnet@h...> wrote:
> Request part number for HEXfet's with current measuring capability.

HEXFET's have a 4th terminal that outpust 1% of the source current
for the device.

Check Digi-Key for the parts ratings for your project.

Dave

>
> Norm
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> To: <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 11:23 AM
> Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Resistive wire
>
>
> > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "dangermouse"
> > <dangermouse1956@g...> wrote:
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> > > To: <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 9:03 AM
> > > Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Resistive wire
> > >
> > >
> > > > All wire is resistive, and there is a chart floating around
out
> > there
> > > > that lists the resistance per foot of common gauge wires.
> > >
> > > I didn't mean to say otherwise--you're right of course. I was
> > looking for
> > > my copper wire tables myself, but can't find them. Based on
some
> > stuff I
> > > found on the web, .01 ohm may not be so hard to get with copper
> > wire--but
> > > insuring that it will pass 3 amps without getting hot is
another
> > matter.
> > > I'm not familiar enough with wire sizing to know.
> > >
> > > > I used to have the chart, and I got that off a link from
another
> > > > list. (BasicStamps) I'll check them to see if they know.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > >
> > > Thanks, I'd appreciate that.
> > >
> > > -DM
> >
> > I started on a spreadsheet and realized that the load carrying
> > capacity of a wire is dependant on the heat that will be
generated
> >
> > So, while a 1 watt load on a #12 wire is not going to heat the
wire
> > to any signifigant amount, it very well may heat a #40 to a
> > temperature to cause failure. ( I'm thinking fuses are based on
this
> > concept)
> >
> > I'm at a loss of how to figure a safe capacity of current in a
wire.
> >
> > There is where those HEXfet's we discussed some time ago were
> > attractive. The additional leg offered a simple method of
measurring
> > current.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Electronics_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
• ... capability. ... http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irc540.pdf ... was ... copper ... on
Message 5 of 28 , Jan 2, 2004
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--- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha"
<dave_mucha@y...> wrote:
> --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Norm Carlberg"
> <normnet@h...> wrote:
> > Request part number for HEXfet's with current measuring
capability.
>
>
>
> HEXFET's have a 4th terminal that outpust 1% of the source current
> for the device.
>
> Check Digi-Key for the parts ratings for your project.
>
> Dave

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irc540.pdf

>
>
>
>
> >
> > Norm
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> > To: <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 11:23 AM
> > Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Resistive wire
> >
> >
> > > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "dangermouse"
> > > <dangermouse1956@g...> wrote:
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> > > > To: <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 9:03 AM
> > > > Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Resistive wire
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > All wire is resistive, and there is a chart floating around
> out
> > > there
> > > > > that lists the resistance per foot of common gauge wires.
> > > >
> > > > I didn't mean to say otherwise--you're right of course. I
was
> > > looking for
> > > > my copper wire tables myself, but can't find them. Based on
> some
> > > stuff I
> > > > found on the web, .01 ohm may not be so hard to get with
copper
> > > wire--but
> > > > insuring that it will pass 3 amps without getting hot is
> another
> > > matter.
> > > > I'm not familiar enough with wire sizing to know.
> > > >
> > > > > I used to have the chart, and I got that off a link from
> another
> > > > > list. (BasicStamps) I'll check them to see if they know.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, I'd appreciate that.
> > > >
> > > > -DM
> > >
> > > I started on a spreadsheet and realized that the load carrying
> > > capacity of a wire is dependant on the heat that will be
> generated
> > > from the load.
> > >
> > > So, while a 1 watt load on a #12 wire is not going to heat the
> wire
> > > to any signifigant amount, it very well may heat a #40 to a
> > > temperature to cause failure. ( I'm thinking fuses are based
on
> this
> > > concept)
> > >
> > > I'm at a loss of how to figure a safe capacity of current in a
> wire.
> > >
> > > There is where those HEXfet's we discussed some time ago were
> > > attractive. The additional leg offered a simple method of
> measurring
> > > current.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > Electronics_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
• The temperature cooefficient for copper is terrible. Use a precision resistor for current measuring if you want even 10% accuracy. Yes, at one point I tried to
Message 6 of 28 , Jan 4, 2004
• 0 Attachment
The temperature cooefficient for copper is terrible. Use a precision
resistor for current measuring if you want even 10% accuracy. Yes, at
one point I tried to make a current shunt using copper and it kind of
worked but not really. Check the temp co for copper (and other
elemental metals) in the chart and then check the temp co for
NiChrome. Now you see why NiChrome is used for heating elements.

--- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "dangermouse"
<dangermouse1956@g...> wrote:
> Thanks to all for all the suggestions.
>
> Dave, thanks much for the wire tables.
>
> I probably should have mentioned that the application is nothing more
> complicated than an ammeter for a DC bench supply, so inductance
isn't too
> much of a concern. Heating is, of course.
>
> Yes, I saw those 1% .01 ohm resistors, and they're not expensive (about
> \$1.30US in Mouser), but my thought was to calibrate the meter, I would
> measure the supply's output with a calibrated ammeter, then trim the
shunt
> until my meter reads 3.00A. 1% is plenty accurate enough, but even
a solder
> connection can throw the shunt assembly's value off considerably,
and I'd
> like to be able to trim it so that I can use any precalibrated meter
> the current. But that's just one idea.
>
> Thanks again to all!
>
> -DM
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> To: <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 2:03 PM
> Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Resistive wire
>
>
> > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "dangermouse"
> > <dangermouse1956@g...> wrote:
> > > Does anyone know of a good source (in the USA) of inexpensive
> > resistive wire?
> > >
> > > I'm looking for something I can use for a current-sensing shunt,
> > and I'm aiming for .01 ohms (so that 3A = 30mV). The reason I'm
> > looking for wire instead of a .01-ohm resistor is so I can calibrate
> > it by simply shortening or lengthening it. Oh--and it would sure
> > make things easier if it were solderable, too.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any ideas.
> >
> > Seems 16 ga is around 0.004ohms and lists for about 3.69 amps.
> >
> > It would seem that you can run multiple lines and then just measure
> > one, but then I don't know how accurate your system needs to be.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > -DM
> > >
> > > "We are the music-makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams."
> > O'Shaunessy as cited in "Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Electronics_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
• Absolutely TRUE!!! MUSIBIKE ... (about
Message 7 of 28 , Jan 4, 2004
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Absolutely TRUE!!!

MUSIBIKE

--- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "manifold" <manifold_1@y...>
wrote:
> The temperature cooefficient for copper is terrible. Use a precision
> resistor for current measuring if you want even 10% accuracy. Yes, at
> one point I tried to make a current shunt using copper and it kind of
> worked but not really. Check the temp co for copper (and other
> elemental metals) in the chart and then check the temp co for
> NiChrome. Now you see why NiChrome is used for heating elements.
>
> --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "dangermouse"
> <dangermouse1956@g...> wrote:
> > Thanks to all for all the suggestions.
> >
> > Dave, thanks much for the wire tables.
> >
> > I probably should have mentioned that the application is nothing more
> > complicated than an ammeter for a DC bench supply, so inductance
> isn't too
> > much of a concern. Heating is, of course.
> >
> > Yes, I saw those 1% .01 ohm resistors, and they're not expensive
> > \$1.30US in Mouser), but my thought was to calibrate the meter, I would
> > measure the supply's output with a calibrated ammeter, then trim the
> shunt
> > until my meter reads 3.00A. 1% is plenty accurate enough, but even
> a solder
> > connection can throw the shunt assembly's value off considerably,
> and I'd
> > like to be able to trim it so that I can use any precalibrated meter
> > the current. But that's just one idea.
> >
> > Thanks again to all!
> >
> > -DM
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> > To: <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 2:03 PM
> > Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Resistive wire
> >
> >
> > > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "dangermouse"
> > > <dangermouse1956@g...> wrote:
> > > > Does anyone know of a good source (in the USA) of inexpensive
> > > resistive wire?
> > > >
> > > > I'm looking for something I can use for a current-sensing shunt,
> > > and I'm aiming for .01 ohms (so that 3A = 30mV). The reason I'm
> > > looking for wire instead of a .01-ohm resistor is so I can calibrate
> > > it by simply shortening or lengthening it. Oh--and it would sure
> > > make things easier if it were solderable, too.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for any ideas.
> > >
> > > Seems 16 ga is around 0.004ohms and lists for about 3.69 amps.
> > >
> > > It would seem that you can run multiple lines and then just measure
> > > one, but then I don't know how accurate your system needs to be.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > -DM
> > > >
> > > > "We are the music-makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams."
> > > O'Shaunessy as cited in "Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Electronics_101/
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > Electronics_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
• ... at ... of ... OK, So, my project will have to go one way or another. I could set it up so as to use a MOSFET for say, 5 amps. Then monitor the current
Message 8 of 28 , Jan 4, 2004
• 0 Attachment
--- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "manifold" <manifold_1@y...>
wrote:
> The temperature cooefficient for copper is terrible. Use a precision
> resistor for current measuring if you want even 10% accuracy. Yes,
at
> one point I tried to make a current shunt using copper and it kind
of
> worked but not really. Check the temp co for copper (and other
> elemental metals) in the chart and then check the temp co for
> NiChrome. Now you see why NiChrome is used for heating elements.

OK,

So, my project will have to go one way or another. I could set it up
so as to use a MOSFET for say, 5 amps. Then monitor the current and
control it by pulsing it so as to maintain 5 amps. Then just have 10
such units so as to have the ability just turn on another circuit.

Or, to have a single MOSFET and do the same thing, but just have
different levels that the switching controls too.

I was thinking of using a shunt and measuring the voltage across that
so as to determine the current.

There is probably an easier way, but I haven't figured that out as
yet.

Also, since the power supply will be a couple feet from the action, I
can use a couple of feet of wire as the shunt.

Which brings me in a round about way to ask if there is an easier way
to measure current in high amp conditions over a wide span.

Dave
• In a message dated 1/4/2004 7:35:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, dave_mucha@yahoo.com writes: Which brings me in a round about way to ask if there is an easier
Message 9 of 28 , Jan 4, 2004
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In a message dated 1/4/2004 7:35:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, dave_mucha@... writes:
Which brings me in a round about way to ask if there is an easier way
to measure current in high amp conditions over a wide span.

Dave
Dave,

There are several varieties of inductive current transducers. The wire is threaded through a hole in the device and the device once powered up will output a voltage that corresponds to a current.

And I am sure I have seen these in a Grainger cataloq, evan allied and mouser if I remember correctly.
• Thanks, manifold, I appreciate that. -DM ... From: manifold To: Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 3:44
Message 10 of 28 , Jan 4, 2004
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Thanks, manifold, I appreciate that.

-DM

----- Original Message -----
From: "manifold" <manifold_1@...>
To: <Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 3:44 AM
Subject: [Electronics_101] Re: Resistive wire

> The temperature cooefficient for copper is terrible. Use a precision
> resistor for current measuring if you want even 10% accuracy. Yes, at
> one point I tried to make a current shunt using copper and it kind of
> worked but not really. Check the temp co for copper (and other
> elemental metals) in the chart and then check the temp co for
> NiChrome. Now you see why NiChrome is used for heating elements.
>
• ... way ... wire is ... up will output ... and mouser ... I had only seen them in AC so didn t think about them for DC. Thanks Dave
Message 11 of 28 , Jan 4, 2004
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--- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, kmmath@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/4/2004 7:35:39 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> dave_mucha@y... writes:
> Which brings me in a round about way to ask if there is an easier
way
> to measure current in high amp conditions over a wide span.
>
> Dave
> Dave,
>
> There are several varieties of inductive current transducers. The
wire is
> threaded through a hole in the device and the device once powered
up will output
> a voltage that corresponds to a current.
>
> http://www.crmagnetics.com/newprod/ProductView.asp?ProdName=CR5210
>
> http://www.fastron.com.au/pdf/mothfly.pdf
>
> http://www.ayainstruments.com/applications3.html
>
> And I am sure I have seen these in a Grainger cataloq, evan allied
and mouser
> if I remember correctly.

I had only seen them in AC so didn't think about them for DC.

Thanks

Dave
• ... I just bought one of these for use in a project measuring charging/discharging current in a vehicle and it worked great, as well as being extremely easy to
Message 12 of 28 , Jan 4, 2004
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>
> Which brings me in a round about way to ask if there is an easier way
> to measure current in high amp conditions over a wide span.
>
> Dave
>
I just bought one of these for use in a project measuring
charging/discharging current in a vehicle and it worked great, as
well as being extremely easy to use.

http://www.amploc.com/AMP%20Seties.pdf

Bob
• I measure HIGH DC current magnitude with a HALL sensor. Right now, several drilling rigs with my latest DC drives that source up to 5000Adc use these. I also
Message 13 of 28 , Jan 4, 2004
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I measure HIGH DC current magnitude with a HALL sensor. Right now,
several drilling rigs with my latest DC drives that source up to

I also use these on smaller SCRs for FIELD suppies of only up to
100Adc. Current shunts are very good but, are going out of style.

For A.C. CURRENTS a C.T. or current transformer is what is best suited
for my bigger AC induction motor drives. I have a 1000Hp AC drive in
Germany now under test.

MUSIBIKE

--- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Bob & Linda Gardner"
<gardner.bob@g...> wrote:
> >
> > Which brings me in a round about way to ask if there is an easier way
> > to measure current in high amp conditions over a wide span.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> I just bought one of these for use in a project measuring
> charging/discharging current in a vehicle and it worked great, as
> well as being extremely easy to use.
>
> http://www.amploc.com/AMP%20Seties.pdf
>
> Bob
• That s a nice part and fast too! If a lower range is needed, just pass the wire through the sensor a few times to increase the effective current through the
Message 14 of 28 , Jan 4, 2004
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That's a nice part and fast too! If a lower range is needed, just
pass the wire through the sensor a few times to increase the effective
current through the sensor. If the current carrying wire is passed
through the sensor twice, the full scale range is divided by two so a
10A full scale sensor becomes a 5A full scale sensor etc.

--- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Bob & Linda Gardner"
<gardner.bob@g...> wrote:
> >
> > Which brings me in a round about way to ask if there is an easier way
> > to measure current in high amp conditions over a wide span.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> I just bought one of these for use in a project measuring
> charging/discharging current in a vehicle and it worked great, as
> well as being extremely easy to use.
>
> http://www.amploc.com/AMP%20Seties.pdf
>
> Bob
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