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Re: Rely to comments and questions about EMF sleeping aid device.

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  • Capt Wright
    I m an EE and I am not convinced most are practical engineering types and even know solid proven science. The one reason for the board is to learn and ask
    Message 1 of 25 , May 2, 2010
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      I'm an EE and I am not convinced most are practical engineering types and even know solid proven science. The one reason for the board is to learn and ask questions and gain from others experiences. Besides it is easy to look good when the questions are simple, hi.

      73, ron, n9ee/r



      --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, lists <Stuartlists@...> wrote:
      >
      > In article <hrk7v9+od2f@...>,
      > Capt Wright <mccrpt@...> wrote:
      > > I thought the group was more open minded
      >
      > Nah, all 'airy arsed, practical engineering types here. Feet firmly on the
      > ground with our thinking based on solid proven science.
      > :-)
      >
    • Leon Heller
      ... What are EMF frequencies , how are they generated by the earth, and what mechanism is responsible for them having an effect upon behaviour? Strong
      Message 2 of 25 , May 2, 2010
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        On 02/05/2010 17:07, Capt Wright wrote:
        > hi all,
        >
        > I thought the group was more open minded. I am always skeptical of things like this sleep circuit, but I am open to trying it to see. The mind works in strange ways and man is very far from figuring it out. I would not put much money on it, maybe 1000:1 odds and I would maybe put up $1, better odds than the lotto, hi.
        >
        > Would be something to try. Maybe the designer needed an excuse as to why it worked, if it did work, and came up with the EMF from the Earth thing. Might be something else, but if it works get it together and go for an infomercial, hi. There are lots of people that think things like this does happen. I do.

        What are "EMF frequencies", how are they generated by the earth, and
        what mechanism is responsible for them having an effect upon behaviour?
        Strong magnetic fields have been shown to affect behaviour by altering
        blood flow in the brain and affecting neuronal activity, but they are
        thousands of times stronger than those generated by the earth's magnetic
        core, and are applied directly to subjects' skulls.

        Leon
        --
        Leon Heller
        G1HSM
      • alienrelics
        As the moderator and a member of the group, I m a little disappointed at the amount of scorn. a) The Earth does have an EMF, mostly it is a very weak constant
        Message 3 of 25 , May 2, 2010
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          As the moderator and a member of the group, I'm a little disappointed at the amount of scorn.


          a) The Earth does have an EMF, mostly it is a very weak constant EMF with some noise (fluctuations) riding on it. I think the noise is mostly powered from the Solar Wind's charged particles interacting with the Earth's magnetic field. I think we can safely say that the effect of that field, and its noise component, on a human body/brain is unknown.

          b) That is good, but to find out if the Earth produces field that can be reproduced, first you should measure. Making presumptions, building circuits, then looking for anecdotal evidence of it working isn't going to get you closer except by accident.

          c) I thought that was the end result desired, to see if you could build a small circuit to reproduce "good" EMF.

          d) There are a lot of leaps of faith in there. Where is the proof that high frequency EMF inhibits sleep? It does -not- logically follow that if Not A, then B. For example: High frequency EMF is bad for a computer, it does -not- follow that low frequency EMF is -good- for a computer.

          The website you quoted in your first post also makes a lot of leaps of faith and errors in logic. Where are the studies proving that people don't sleep well in cities, but do sleep well out in the country? The studies must also take into account the fact that someone in the city may be under stress from their job or other factors. And that taking a camping trip is specifically an effort to get away from that stress. That typically that camping trip is also accompanied by greater physical activity such as rowing, walking, and chopping wood, and by more relaxed activities such as fishing and sitting staring into a campfire.

          As someone else pointed out, there was also no proof given that the Earth's EMF is not present in cities. Certainly we're exposed to EMF from all the electronic devices around us, but the fields drop off as the inverse square of distance. So turn the TV off, and don't sleep with your clock-radio or cell phone under your pillow.


          There seems to be this generally accepted assumption in the general public that if you measure a given frequency from some electrodes on your skull, that applying those frequencies externally is good. If I measure the EMF/EMI around a computer, do you think sending a copy of that noise back to the computer will somehow make it run better? All you are doing with an EEG is measuring an amalgam of all the electrical activity in the brain. Much of the activity is of a chemical nature and won't show up on an EEG.


          By the way, using square waves you will be getting the higher frequency components, too.

          Steve Greenfield


          --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "david14433" <david14433@...> wrote:
          >
          > First let me just say this question is for people that have tried this sleeping aid EMF device or an equivalent.
          > I know that the device probably does not have the empirical evidence that you are looking for to see if it works. I don't care about that. On the other hand you should not discredit a device that you don't know if it works or not. You must also distinguish between the bodies good and bad natural frequencies. The good ones are the ones that we make naturally and bad ones are the ones that we do not make naturally. If you don't know anything about this google brainwaves.
          >
          > To answer your questions or concerns here it is.
          > A) Yes earth has EMF frequencies. They are weak and they fluxuate.
          > B) I don't know that is why I am trying to see of someone does know.
          > C) I don't care about that.
          > D) Indeed EMF's are related to sleep. High frequencies can inhibit sleep so it is only logical that low frequencies in the rage the body naturally uses would be beneficial. If you didn't already know the device uses a frequency of 1.2 and 5 Hz respectively so that is well in the brainwave sleeping frequencies.
          >
          >
          > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, jong kung <jongkung01@> wrote:
          > > Sounds hockey pockey., I'm not convinced that whatever EMF earth > emits, that it is missing in the cities (or where ever people are > not able to sleep)., I would have to see some data that:
          > > (a) earth has EMF
          > > (b) it is steady and simple enough to be reproduced (not random > noise)
          > > (c) it can be reproduced using a small device
          > > (d) and that this EMF is related to sleep.
          > > If anything, we have too much EMF in the cities and we should > shield ourselves (if it can be proven the background EMF is causing > the lack of sleep).
          > > Jong
          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > It is a waste of your time.
          > > The only way in which it helps you sleep is by making you tired from
          > > building it. ;-)
          > > ST
          > -----------------------------------------------------------------
          > > Sure, thats just what I want - something transmitting RF two inches > from my head all night!
          > > Daryl.
          >
        • Stefan Trethan
          Add to that traffic noise, infrasound, poor air quality, light pollution, higher temperature,... It s going to be a tad tricky to isolate the variables here,
          Message 4 of 25 , May 2, 2010
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            Add to that traffic noise, infrasound, poor air quality, light
            pollution, higher temperature,...

            It's going to be a tad tricky to isolate the variables here, and
            that's all without considering the placebo effect.

            ST

            On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 7:49 PM, alienrelics <alienrelics@...> wrote:
            >Where are the studies proving that people don't sleep well in cities, but do sleep well out in the country? The studies must also >take into account the fact that someone in the city may be under stress from their job or other factors. And that taking a >camping trip is specifically an effort to get away from that stress. That typically that camping trip is also accompanied by >greater physical activity such as rowing, walking, and chopping wood, and by more relaxed activities such as fishing and >sitting >staring into a campfire.
            >
          • jong kung
            Capt Wright, ... You are right.  If a person wanted to build blinking LED thinking it will attract space aliens, I think I would try to help to build the LED
            Message 5 of 25 , May 2, 2010
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              Capt Wright,


              > I thought the group was more open minded.

              You are right.  If a person wanted to build blinking LED thinking it will attract space aliens, I think I would try to help to build the LED circuit (even if space aliens are not something I believe in).  After the circuit is built, he's on his own.

              That is why I tried to help this guy with the circuit.  The old circuit was just old style analog and it could be easier done in uC.  The only problem is that there's no way to test it.

              ====

              What I don't like is if somebody tries to sell something like this (with my help building it) and take advantage of other's ignorance of science.


              Jong















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Leon Heller
              ... Some confusion has been caused by the use of the term EMF. I always understood it to mean electro-motive force:
              Message 6 of 25 , May 2, 2010
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                On 02/05/2010 18:49, alienrelics wrote:
                > As the moderator and a member of the group, I'm a little disappointed at the amount of scorn.
                >
                >
                > a) The Earth does have an EMF, mostly it is a very weak constant EMF with some noise (fluctuations) riding on it. I think the noise is mostly powered from the Solar Wind's charged particles interacting with the Earth's magnetic field. I think we can safely say that the effect of that field, and its noise component, on a human body/brain is unknown.

                Some confusion has been caused by the use of the term EMF. I always
                understood it to mean electro-motive force:

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromotive_force

                Perhaps it's electro-magnetic field, in this context. Or, is it a
                magnetic field?

                Leon
                --
                Leon Heller
                G1HSM
              • jong kung
                ... There was a experiment where strogn MAGNETIC force (not EMF) was applied to the part of the brain.  It had the effect of inhibiting part of it, and a
                Message 7 of 25 , May 2, 2010
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                  > Strong magnetic fields have been shown
                  > to affect behaviour by altering ...












                  There was a experiment where strogn MAGNETIC force (not EMF) was applied to the part of the brain.  It had the effect of inhibiting part of it, and a person who could barely draw stick figure was able to draw almost artistically.  They are assuming earlier in human development / evolution, we were more picture and image oriented. As humans developed more abstract skills (math, words, language, etc.) we lose the ability to rely on these image based thinking. 

                  In another words, when we see a red car, we no longer "see a picture" of the red car in our minds (to remember), we remember the words  "red" and "car", etc.

                  =====

                  Knowing this, I would rather see an experiment in magnetic field, sleep and dreaming. 


                  Jong






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • alienrelics
                  ... In this context, ElectroMagnetic Field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_field Steve Greenfield
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 2, 2010
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                    --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On 02/05/2010 18:49, alienrelics wrote:
                    > > As the moderator and a member of the group, I'm a little disappointed at the amount of scorn.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > a) The Earth does have an EMF, mostly it is a very weak constant EMF with some noise (fluctuations) riding on it. I think the noise is mostly powered from the Solar Wind's charged particles interacting with the Earth's magnetic field. I think we can safely say that the effect of that field, and its noise component, on a human body/brain is unknown.
                    >
                    > Some confusion has been caused by the use of the term EMF. I always
                    > understood it to mean electro-motive force:
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromotive_force
                    >
                    > Perhaps it's electro-magnetic field, in this context. Or, is it a
                    > magnetic field?

                    In this context, ElectroMagnetic Field.
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_field

                    Steve Greenfield
                  • Stefan Trethan
                    Some slightly crazy professor in Australia did those experiments. I always wondered what kind of legal waiver the suspects had to sign, what if the part of the
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 2, 2010
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                      Some slightly crazy professor in Australia did those experiments.
                      I always wondered what kind of legal waiver the suspects had to sign,
                      what if the part of the brain did not switch on again?

                      That said, the results were quite astounding indeed. I wonder what he does now.

                      ST


                      On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 9:20 PM, jong kung <jongkung01@...> wrote:
                      >

                      >
                      > There was a experiment where strogn MAGNETIC force (not EMF) was applied to the part of the brain.  It had the effect of inhibiting part of it, and a person who could barely draw stick figure was able to draw almost artistically.  They are assuming earlier in human development / evolution, we were more picture and image oriented. As humans developed more abstract skills (math, words, language, etc.) we lose the ability to rely on these image based thinking.
                      >
                      > In another words, when we see a red car, we no longer "see a picture" of the red car in our minds (to remember), we remember the words  "red" and "car", etc.
                      >
                      > =====
                      >
                      > Knowing this, I would rather see an experiment in magnetic field, sleep and dreaming.
                      >
                      >
                      > Jong
                      >
                      >
                    • ikc46118
                      I have a circuit that cures hemorrhoids. Really. It s true. Doctors don t know as much about hemorrhoids as you think they do. Contact me off-list and I ll
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 2, 2010
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                        I have a circuit that cures hemorrhoids.

                        Really. It's true.

                        Doctors don't know as much about hemorrhoids as you think they do.

                        Contact me off-list and I'll send you a detailed diagram.

                        Bruce


                        --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, "Capt Wright" <mccrpt@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > ST,
                        >
                        > Most that don't believe this don't know crap about it, that is the mind. Most in the 1800s thought man could never fly. Try telling anyone in 1800 that one could talk around the world with a device that became a radio. Most would say it is impossible. The list of so many saying something would not work is huge.
                        >
                        > I think before anyone says something will not work first know the subject and second try it.
                        >
                        > Most is a poor reason for not trying something.
                        >
                        > 73, ron, n9ee/r
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > There are lots of people who believe all sorts of crap, doesn't make
                        > > it any more likely to me.
                        > >
                        > > As you admit yourself, the odds are 1000:1, and we can't test it
                        > > properly (you'd need a double blind test with a significant number of
                        > > subjects). So why waste time on something that most probably doesn't
                        > > work and can't practically be shown to work?
                        > >
                        > > ST
                        > >
                        > > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Capt Wright <mccrpt@> wrote:
                        > > > hi all,
                        > > >
                        > > > I thought the group was more open minded.  I am always skeptical of things like this sleep circuit, but I am open to trying it to see.  The mind works in strange ways and man is very far from figuring it out.  I would not put much money on it, maybe 1000:1 odds and I would maybe put up $1, better odds than the lotto, hi.
                        > > >
                        > > > Would be something to try.  Maybe the designer needed an excuse as to why it worked, if it did work, and came up with the EMF from the Earth thing.  Might be something else, but if it works get it together and go for an infomercial, hi.  There are lots of people that think things like this does happen.  I do.
                        > > >
                        > > > 73, ron, n9ee/r
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • ikc46118
                        The original site says this about the circuit: Many people experienced sleeping well in natural surroundings, into a tent or a wooden hut. This fact is due
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 2, 2010
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                          The original site says this about the circuit:

                          "Many people experienced sleeping well in natural surroundings, into a tent or a wooden hut. This fact is due not only to the healthy atmosphere but also from our unconscious ability to perceive natural Earth's magnetic-fields.
                          The circuit generates this type of Geo-magnetic-fields and lets us perceive them: in this manner our brain is surrounded by an ideal environment for a sound sleep."

                          Seems to me that the objective could be achieved with a battery, a big ol' inductor, and a current-limiting resistor. Kinda like picking up metal shavings with a wire wrapped around a nail.

                          Bruce


                          --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > On 02/05/2010 18:49, alienrelics wrote:
                          > > As the moderator and a member of the group, I'm a little disappointed at the amount of scorn.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > a) The Earth does have an EMF, mostly it is a very weak constant EMF with some noise (fluctuations) riding on it. I think the noise is mostly powered from the Solar Wind's charged particles interacting with the Earth's magnetic field. I think we can safely say that the effect of that field, and its noise component, on a human body/brain is unknown.
                          >
                          > Some confusion has been caused by the use of the term EMF. I always
                          > understood it to mean electro-motive force:
                          >
                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromotive_force
                          >
                          > Perhaps it's electro-magnetic field, in this context. Or, is it a
                          > magnetic field?
                          >
                          > Leon
                          > --
                          > Leon Heller
                          > G1HSM
                          >
                        • Stefan Trethan
                          Seems to me a tent or a wooden hut is almost guaranteed to work as well. I ve slept badly in a tent once, does that prove that the circuit doesn t work? ;-) If
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 2, 2010
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                            Seems to me a tent or a wooden hut is almost guaranteed to work as well.
                            I've slept badly in a tent once, does that prove that the circuit
                            doesn't work? ;-)

                            If you make an electromagnet, and drive it with DC, you might as well
                            use a plain old permanent magnet and save the money for the batteries.
                            They sell wristbands with magnets to little old ladies here, them
                            crooks!

                            ST

                            On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:41 PM, ikc46118 <bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

                            > Seems to me that the objective could be achieved with a battery, a big ol' inductor, and a current-limiting resistor. Kinda like picking up metal shavings with a wire wrapped around a nail.
                            >
                            > Bruce
                            >
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