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Re: Hardware in the Loop Simulator

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  • Terrance
    This sounds like a fun project! Are you saying that you would like a computer (or other device) to control the voltages, according to some script or even in
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
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      This sounds like a fun project!

      Are you saying that you would like a computer (or other device) to control the voltages, according to some script or even in response to other input? If I am understanding your need correctly, try searching for DAC (digital to analog converter).

      I hate to be this guy, but this does sound like the perfect job for a microcontroller.

      If you can post a bit more detail on precisely what you would like to do, I'm sure many of the talented folks here (or even I) could point you in the right direction.

      Try to break your post up into paragraphs. It makes it easier to both read, and to respond to individual ideas/questions.

      -Terrance

      --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, drmayf <drmayf@...> wrote:
      >
      > First, let me say thanks to Steve for permitting me access to the list.
      > I have an interesting project, at least to me, that I need some help
      > on. I drive a small race car on the Bonneville Salt Flats, the engine is
      > turbocharged Ford using Ford Electronics for the motor management. For
      > the last 4 years, I have had an rpm issue with the motor not running
      > more than about 5500 rpm. This past fall, a friend and I assembled a
      > hardware in the loop simulator to "run" the EEC using as much of the
      > electronic harness and electronics as was immediately possible. My
      > associate assembled the pieces that allowed the Air Charge temp, Engine
      > Coolant temp, and the Throttle position sensors to be mimiced. I put
      > together a mass air flow meter with shop air blowing through the
      > sampling port to generate a 0 - 5 volt return voltage to the EEC. I
      > also gathered up parts to drive a distributor with the TFI module from
      > the car for rpm input and spark control. The dc motor controller now
      > uses a pot to provide the input voltage to run the dizzy motor and pots
      > for the two temp and TPS sensors. Strangely enough, it all works, but
      > it is tiresome twiddling all the pot knobs to get through a full run
      > with the paramters set to approximately what they are during a run. I
      > have indeed verified that the electronics are NOT the source of the 5500
      > rpm hang up. But, this thing is fun and now I would like to automate it.
      > I have an old computer that runs some very old scada software which I
      > know how to use and I have some analog input and output cards for I/O. I
      > know how to do the TPS and dc motor controller, but, I am stuck on the
      > two temp sensors and the mass air flow simulations. The mass aif flow
      > meter is a ford unit that outputs a proportional voltage for the mass of
      > air flowing at any given moment. So, I need help in figuring out how to
      > input a simulated mass air flow voltage, and two temps sensor inputs.
      > If this sounds like someting you might be interested in, let me know and
      > I can provide more detail or answer questions on the list. Also, if you
      > can help with key words I might use tosearch teh archieves for the mass
      > air simulation or temp sender simulations, I would appreciate it: that
      > would allow me to home in on the solution as quickly as possible.
      >
      > This is the longest post from me as introductory, lol... thanks for
      > listening!
      >
      > many many thanks!
      >
      > drmayf
      > worlds fastest Sunbeam (wannabe, 186.192 mph so far)
      >
    • drmayf
      Terrance, thanks for the reply. This simulator is used in the shop so my old desk top with its scada software serves as the micro p. I have the analog D/A card
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
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        Terrance, thanks for the reply. This simulator is used in the shop so my
        old desk top with its scada software serves as the micro p. I have the
        analog D/A card already as well as a relay driver and an A/I card. As
        indicated, that part is doable by me already. What I need is help trying
        to determine how to simulate the mass air flow meter and two temp
        sensors. That's all. That, however, is a big challenge, at least to me,
        lol. The temp sensors are easily done using a pot and manual twiddling.
        One end of the pot and the wiper are all that is needed with the end
        being tied to the EEC's signal wire and the wiper to the return. I don't
        know how to replace the pot in that situation when doing it
        automatically under computer control. Would I just hook an A/O channel
        wire to the signal wire from the EEc and its return to the A/I channel
        return? If that can be figured out, then I have a chance, lol. In the
        next few days, I will be testing a pot to simulate the mass air flow as
        well using the same method. If that works then all is needed is to
        figure out how to connect the A/O output voltages to the EEC since all
        three sensors would follow the same simulation methodology. .

        I think the temp sensors are RTD types and the EEC puts a reference
        voltage across the RTD. Then as it warms up the sensor changes and I
        believe increases (or drops) the voltage across the thing. I don't know
        how to simulate that.

        Any ideas, folks! RC Cola and a moon pie to the first successful
        suggester, lol...

        drmayf
        Terrance wrote:

        > This sounds like a fun project!
        >
        > Are you saying that you would like a computer (or other device) to
        > control the voltages, according to some script or even in response to
        > other input? If I am understanding your need correctly, try searching
        > for DAC (digital to analog converter).
        >
        > I hate to be this guy, but this does sound like the perfect job for a
        > microcontroller.
        >
        > If you can post a bit more detail on precisely what you would like to
        > do, I'm sure many of the talented folks here (or even I) could point
        > you in the right direction.
        >
        > Try to break your post up into paragraphs. It makes it easier to both
        > read, and to respond to individual ideas/questions.
        >
        > -Terrance
        >
        > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:Electronics_101%40yahoogroups.com>, drmayf <drmayf@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > First, let me say thanks to Steve for permitting me access to the list.
        > > I have an interesting project, at least to me, that I need some help
        > > on. I drive a small race car on the Bonneville Salt Flats, the engine is
        > > turbocharged Ford using Ford Electronics for the motor management. For
        > > the last 4 years, I have had an rpm issue with the motor not running
        > > more than about 5500 rpm. This past fall, a friend and I assembled a
        > > hardware in the loop simulator to "run" the EEC using as much of the
        > > electronic harness and electronics as was immediately possible. My
        > > assoc
        >

        > BIG snip
        >

        > ption or temp sender simulations, I would appreciate it: that
        > > would allow me to home in on the solution as quickly as possible.
        > >
        > > This is the longest post from me as introductory, lol... thanks for
        > > listening!
        > >
        > > many many thanks!
        > >
        > > drmayf
        > > worlds fastest Sunbeam (wannabe, 186.192 mph so far)
        > >
        >
        >
      • jong kung
        drmayf ... I m looking at few of my car electronics book and they all agree that MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor produce 0-5 volts (in proportion to air flow).  
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
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          drmayf


          > but, I am stuck on the
          > two temp sensors and the mass air flow simulations. The mass aif flow
          > meter is a ford unit that outputs a proportional voltage for the mass of
          > air flowing at any given moment. So, I need help in figuring out how to
          > input a simulated mass air flow voltage, and two temps sensor inputs.

          I'm looking at few of my car electronics book and they all agree that MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor produce 0-5 volts (in proportion to air flow).   That means that it can easily be simulated using a variable resistor (pot) with 5 volts on top, ground on the bottom and the wiper being the simulated voltage.

          Does this make sense?

          ====

          The 2 temp sensors are variable resistor (Thermistors).  But the little caveat is that it is negative temp coefficient (resistance decrease as temp increase).

          My books don't say (or I can't find) what is the resistance range.  But this link here:

          http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/may98/techtotech.htm

          says the range is 70 ohms (hot) to 100,000 ohms (cold).  There's no need for the 5v here (and "top" resistor for the voltage divider), as that is already in the engine ECU circuit.  So inside the engine ECU, there's the 5 volts source, a 350 ohm resistor, voltage sensing circuit, output to temp sensor, return from temp sensor (ground) - all in that order. 

          The (top) 350 Ohm resistor and temp sensor creates a voltage divider.

          Even though (I think) you are talking about 2 different temp sensors (air and coolant), they work the same - just calibrated to different temp range.

          I would just put a variable resistor (100K potentiometer) using the wiper, and ground connection to vary the resistance.
          =====

          > worlds fastest Sunbeam (wannabe, 186.192 mph so far)

          OK, if this advice works out, I want a ride.  In fact In think everybody on this group gets a ride.

          :-)


          Jong

          <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>



          Bonnie Hunt Show fan. The best show on TV (American TV) !! :-)



          http://www.bonniehunt.com/



          Save the Bonnie Hunt Show !!



          <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>

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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Howard Hansen
          When you say you have some old SCADA software do you have hardware to go with the software? When people use the term SCADA , supervisory control and data
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
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            When you say you have some old SCADA software do you have hardware to go
            with the software? When people use the term SCADA , supervisory control
            and data acquisition they usually mean both hardware and software.

            To expedite matters you need to tells us the mass flow meter's output
            voltage range and the type of temperature sensors you are using. Mass
            flow meter output range means what is the output voltage with no air
            flow and the output voltage with maximum airflow? Type of temperature
            sensor means is it a thermocouple, thermistor. platinum wire, a diode or
            some other type of sensor?

            You may be able to use something as inexpensive as Labjack"s U3 data
            acquisition module. Many others will recommend a micro controller. You
            w3ill need to make the trade off of time versus money.
            For labjack information see:
            http://labjack.com/

            Howard


            drmayf wrote:
            >
            >
            > First, let me say thanks to Steve for permitting me access to the list.
            > I have an interesting project, at least to me, that I need some help
            > on. I drive a small race car on the Bonneville Salt Flats, the engine is
            > turbocharged Ford using Ford Electronics for the motor management. For
            > the last 4 years, I have had an rpm issue with the motor not running
            > more than about 5500 rpm. This past fall, a friend and I assembled a
            > hardware in the loop simulator to "run" the EEC using as much of the
            > electronic harness and electronics as was immediately possible. My
            > associate assembled the pieces that allowed the Air Charge temp, Engine
            > Coolant temp, and the Throttle position sensors to be mimiced. I put
            > together a mass air flow meter with shop air blowing through the
            > sampling port to generate a 0 - 5 volt return voltage to the EEC. I
            > also gathered up parts to drive a distributor with the TFI module from
            > the car for rpm input and spark control. The dc motor controller now
            > uses a pot to provide the input voltage to run the dizzy motor and pots
            > for the two temp and TPS sensors. Strangely enough, it all works, but
            > it is tiresome twiddling all the pot knobs to get through a full run
            > with the paramters set to approximately what they are during a run. I
            > have indeed verified that the electronics are NOT the source of the 5500
            > rpm hang up. But, this thing is fun and now I would like to automate it.
            > I have an old computer that runs some very old scada software which I
            > know how to use and I have some analog input and output cards for I/O. I
            > know how to do the TPS and dc motor controller, but, I am stuck on the
            > two temp sensors and the mass air flow simulations. The mass aif flow
            > meter is a ford unit that outputs a proportional voltage for the mass of
            > air flowing at any given moment. So, I need help in figuring out how to
            > input a simulated mass air flow voltage, and two temps sensor inputs.
            > If this sounds like someting you might be interested in, let me know and
            > I can provide more detail or answer questions on the list. Also, if you
            > can help with key words I might use tosearch teh archieves for the mass
            > air simulation or temp sender simulations, I would appreciate it: that
            > would allow me to home in on the solution as quickly as possible.
            >
            > This is the longest post from me as introductory, lol... thanks for
            > listening!
            >
            > many many thanks!
            >
            > drmayf
            > worlds fastest Sunbeam (wannabe, 186.192 mph so far)
            >
            >
          • drmayf
            Yes sir, but I think I need to use the ref voltage coming from the EEC. If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot unconnected and put
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
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              Yes sir, but I think I need to use the ref voltage coming from the EEC.
              If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot
              unconnected and put the EEC return on the wiper, I think I will have
              it.. Again, it is that pesky pot I am trying to get rid of in the
              automatic simulation. If the pot tryout later this week works then I may
              as you suggest just try putting voltages directly into the EEC brain
              box. But, I do have to be careful as those EECs are not free... killing
              the mass air internal circuity would hurt. As tot he temp sensors, yes,
              I have cal curves on those as well, and I have used a pot to
              successfully simulate them. But i want to eliminate the pots and use the
              SCADA anaglog output to provide the simulated voltage.

              I hope that this is really easy and I am just dense, lol....

              mayf
              jong kung wrote:

              >
              > drmayf
              >
              > > but, I am stuck on the
              > > two temp sensors and the mass air flow simulations. The mass aif flow
              > > meter is a ford unit that outputs a proportional voltage for the mass of
              > > air flowing at any given moment. So, I need help in figuring out how to
              > > input a simulated mass air flow voltage, and two temps sensor inputs.
              >
              > I'm looking at few of my car electronics book and they all agree that
              > MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor produce 0-5 volts (in proportion to air
              > flow). That means that it can easily be simulated using a variable
              > resistor (pot) with 5 volts on top, ground on the bottom and the wiper
              > being the simulated voltage.
              >
              > Does this make sense?
              >
              > ====
              >
              > The 2 temp sensors are variable resistor (Thermistors). But the little
              > caveat is that it is negative temp coefficient (resistance decrease as
              > temp increase).
              >
              > My books don't say (or I can't find) what is the resistance range. But
              > this link here:
              >
              > http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/may98/techtotech.htm
              > <http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/may98/techtotech.htm>
              >
              > says the range is 70 ohms (hot) to 100,000 ohms (cold). There's no
              > need for the 5v here (and "top" resistor for the voltage divider), as
              > that is already in the engine ECU circuit. So inside the engine ECU,
              > there's the 5 volts source, a 350 ohm resistor, voltage sensing
              > circuit, output to temp sensor, return from temp sensor (ground) - all
              > in that order.
              >
              > The (top) 350 Ohm resistor and temp sensor creates a voltage divider.
              >
              > Even though (I think) you are talking about 2 different temp sensors
              > (air and coolant), they work the same - just calibrated to different
              > temp range.
              >
              > I would just put a variable resistor (100K potentiometer) using the
              > wiper, and ground connection to vary the resistance.
              > =====
              >
              > > worlds fastest Sunbeam (wannabe, 186.192 mph so far)
              >
              > OK, if this advice works out, I want a ride. In fact In think
              > everybody on this group gets a ride.
              >
              > :-)
              >
              > Jong
              >
              > <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
              >
              > Bonnie Hunt Show fan. The best show on TV (American TV) !! :-)
              >
              > http://www.bonniehunt.com/ <http://www.bonniehunt.com/>
              >
              > Save the Bonnie Hunt Show !!
              >
              > <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
              >
              > _,_._,___
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
            • jong kung
              drmayf, ... Just in case, you need to know how POT work.  It can either work as a variable resistor OR or as voltage divider.  If you apply voltage (5v) and
              Message 6 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
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                drmayf,


                > Yes sir, but I think I need to use the ref voltage coming from the EEC.
                > If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot
                > unconnected and put the EEC return on the wiper, I think I will have
                > it.. Again, it is that pesky pot I am trying to get rid of in the
                > automatic simulation. If the pot tryout later this week works then I may
                > as you suggest just try putting voltages directly into the EEC brain box.

                Just in case, you need to know how POT work.  It can either work as a variable resistor OR or as voltage divider.  If you apply voltage (5v) and ground, then the output of the wiper is the voltage divider.  This the configuration you use for MAF sensor.

                If you do NOT apply voltage, the wiper and the arm (terminal) becomes variable resistor.  This the configuration for temp sensor.

                ====

                > If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot

                > unconnected

                No.  The other end needs to be connected to ground.  That's your missing link to simulating the MAF sensor. 


                Jong


                <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>



                Bonnie Hunt Show fan. The best show on TV (American TV) !! :-)



                http://www.bonniehunt.com/



                Save the Bonnie Hunt Show !!



                <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • jong kung
                Terrance, ... do, I m sure ... you in the right direction. He needs to simulate 2 physical devices. Device 1: MAF sensor of a car.  Basically the car engine
                Message 7 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
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                  Terrance,


                  > If you can post a bit more detail on precisely what you would like to
                  do, I'm sure
                  > many of the talented folks here (or even I) could point
                  you in the right direction.

                  He needs to simulate 2 physical devices.

                  Device 1: MAF sensor of a car.  Basically the car engine computer has 3 wires.

                  (a) 5V ref.
                  (b) signal - voltage proportion to air flow into the engine
                  (c) ground

                  Device 2: engine temp sensor.  Basically it is just a 80 - 100,000 variable resistor.  The 5v ref and resistor1 (350 ohm) of a voltage divider is built into engine computer.  The engine temp sensor is resistor2 of a voltage divider.

                  He also have Dev 3, but basically is should be the same as Dev 2.  The only diff is that one of them is water temp sensor, and the other is air temp sensor (diff range of temp).  But electrically I believe they are identical.
                  =====

                  So he needs a way to simulate them using some sort of analog output of a uC or PC.


                  Jong

                  <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>



                  Bonnie Hunt Show fan. The best show on TV (American TV) !! :-)



                  http://www.bonniehunt.com/



                  Save the Bonnie Hunt Show !!



                  <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>

                  _,_._,___















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • drmayf
                  Howard, yes, I have both software and hardware. As mentioned I have analog input, relay driver and analog output as well as digital input and output. That
                  Message 8 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
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                    Howard, yes, I have both software and hardware. As mentioned I have
                    analog input, relay driver and analog output as well as digital input
                    and output. That side of the equation is easy to do.

                    The scada will not be taking any data though. It is used only as a
                    signal provider to the ford eec brain box sensor inputs. When runnig
                    the simulator teh EEC is powered and I data log through the EEC.

                    The temp sensors are ford as installed on a few million cars, lol. They
                    are RTD types with a negative coefficient. The Ford EEC has two wires
                    for each of the temp sensors. I am guesing that one is voltage and the
                    other is return. I currently have the signal wire from the EEC attached
                    to the CW end of a 10 turn linear pot. The center tap or wiper is
                    connected to the signal return on the EEC. The remaining connection on
                    the pot is open, so the pot is just being a variable resistor. With
                    that, it accurately simulates the sensor. I can change the potto
                    provide a resolution of 2 degrees which is the accuracy of the EEC.
                    That works for both of the temp sensors providing input to the EEC.

                    The mass air flow has wires from the EEC. Two are 12 volt power and
                    ground. The other two are signal and return to the EEC. I believe and I
                    will test this later this week, that I can hook up a pot same as teh
                    temp sensors and simulate the mass air flow as well. The rang of
                    interest is 0 - 5 volts. Calibration is unimportant since the cal curve
                    of flow vs voltage is resident in the EEC. It reads teh voltage and
                    looks up a function and solves it for the mass air flow. I just need
                    some way to input voltages to the system without using the pots while
                    still using the reference signals from the EEC.

                    Labjack, no, I do not need any more data acquisition hardware. I have
                    all that I need.

                    mayf
                    Howard Hansen wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > When you say you have some old SCADA software do you have hardware to go
                    > with the software? When people use the term SCADA , supervisory control
                    > and data acquisition they usually mean both hardware and software.
                    >
                    > To expedite matters you need to tells us the mass flow meter's output
                    > voltage range and the type of temperature sensors you are using. Mass
                    > flow meter output range means what is the output voltage with no air
                    > flow and the output voltage with maximum airflow? Type of temperature
                    > sensor means is it a thermocouple, thermistor. platinum wire, a diode or
                    > some other type of sensor?
                    >
                    > You may be able to use something as inexpensive as Labjack"s U3 data
                    > acquisition module. Many others will recommend a micro controller. You
                    > w3ill need to make the trade off of time versus money.
                    > For labjack information see:
                    > http://labjack.com/ <http://labjack.com/>
                    >
                    > Howard
                    >
                    > drmayf wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > First, let me say thanks to Steve for permitting me access to the list.
                    > > I have an interesting project, at least to me, that I need some help
                    > > on. I drive a small race car on the Bonneville Salt Flats, the engine is
                    > > turbocharged Ford using Ford Electronics for the motor management. For
                    > > the last 4 years, I have had an rpm issue with the motor not running
                    > > more than about 5500 rpm. This past fall, a friend and I assembled a
                    > > hardware in the loop simulator to "run" the EEC using as much of the
                    > > electronic harness and electronics as was immediately possible. My
                    > > associate assembled the pieces that allowed the Air Charge temp, Engine
                    > > Coolant temp, and the Throttle position sensors to be mimiced. I put
                    > > together a mass air flow meter with shop air blowing through the
                    > > sampling port to generate a 0 - 5 volt return voltage to the EEC. I
                    > > also gathered up parts to drive a distributor with the TFI module from
                    > > the car for rpm input and spark control. The dc motor controller now
                    > > uses a pot to provide the input voltage to run the dizzy motor and pots
                    > > for the two temp and TPS sensors. Strangely enough, it all works, but
                    > > it is tiresome twiddling all the pot knobs to get through a full run
                    > > with the paramters set to approximately what they are during a run. I
                    > > have indeed verified that the electronics are NOT the source of the 5500
                    > > rpm hang up. But, this thing is fun and now I would like to automate it.
                    > > I have an old computer that runs some very old scada software which I
                    > > know how to use and I have some analog input and output cards for I/O. I
                    > > know how to do the TPS and dc motor controller, but, I am stuck on the
                    > > two temp sensors and the mass air flow simulations. The mass aif flow
                    > > meter is a ford unit that outputs a proportional voltage for the mass of
                    > > air flowing at any given moment. So, I need help in figuring out how to
                    > > input a simulated mass air flow voltage, and two temps sensor inputs.
                    > > If this sounds like someting you might be interested in, let me know and
                    > > I can provide more detail or answer questions on the list. Also, if you
                    > > can help with key words I might use tosearch teh archieves for the mass
                    > > air simulation or temp sender simulations, I would appreciate it: that
                    > > would allow me to home in on the solution as quickly as possible.
                    > >
                    > > This is the longest post from me as introductory, lol... thanks for
                    > > listening!
                    > >
                    > > many many thanks!
                    > >
                    > > drmayf
                    > > worlds fastest Sunbeam (wannabe, 186.192 mph so far)
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                  • A6intruder@myo-p.com
                    I just loaded the schematic for Drmayf s simulator. Mayf, your two temp sensors are variable resistors. To get that action from your computer control I think
                    Message 9 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
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                      I just loaded the schematic for Drmayf's simulator.

                      Mayf, your two temp sensors are variable resistors. To get that action from
                      your computer control I think you would want to find an IC that will vary
                      its resistance. I used one a long time ago in my secondary injector driver
                      circuit. Most of them are digitally controlled, don't know if your control
                      software can send out 8-bit or higher digital control signals. You will
                      need the digital gurus on this list to help you sort that out.

                      Jong, I tested the circuit you see on my own Mustang computer before sending
                      it to Mayf. My car is a close enough model to simulate what Mayf sees on
                      his older Ford computer. I couldn't get the MAF part to work as it should
                      have. In the past I have had a volt meter hooked to the MAF signal return
                      line and have definitely seen the 0 - 5 volt signal when driving my car.

                      Mayf, have you ever tested the MAF portion of the simulator with the dizzy
                      turning at speed? You mentioned once that some of the signals wouldn't
                      register on the Binary Editor display if the distributor wasn't turning.
                      When I tested on my car, the engine was Off, Key ON. So I got both temps to
                      register and the TPs to register but no MAF response. Maybe since my dizzy
                      wasn't turning, the EEC code wouldn't process the MAF signal?

                      I hope Jong a & the others can help you get this sorted out.

                      Later,

                      Dan Nicoson
                      Austin Surplus Industrial, Inc.
                      Office: 512-852-9589
                      Cell: 512-906-9340
                      www.asisurplus.com

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of jong kung
                      Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:09 PM
                      To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Hardware in the Loop Simulator

                      drmayf,


                      > Yes sir, but I think I need to use the ref voltage coming from the EEC.
                      > If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot
                      > unconnected and put the EEC return on the wiper, I think I will have
                      > it.. Again, it is that pesky pot I am trying to get rid of in the
                      > automatic simulation. If the pot tryout later this week works then I may
                      > as you suggest just try putting voltages directly into the EEC brain box.

                      Just in case, you need to know how POT work. It can either work as a
                      variable resistor OR or as voltage divider. If you apply voltage (5v) and
                      ground, then the output of the wiper is the voltage divider. This the
                      configuration you use for MAF sensor.

                      If you do NOT apply voltage, the wiper and the arm (terminal) becomes
                      variable resistor. This the configuration for temp sensor.

                      ====

                      > If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot

                      > unconnected

                      No. The other end needs to be connected to ground. That's your missing
                      link to simulating the MAF sensor.


                      Jong


                      <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>



                      Bonnie Hunt Show fan. The best show on TV (American TV) !! :-)



                      http://www.bonniehunt.com/



                      Save the Bonnie Hunt Show !!



                      <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      ------------------------------------

                      Please trim excess when replyingYahoo! Groups Links
                    • drmayf
                      Jong, the maf, then may be the easiest to simulate. I can output voltages from my pc using the scada software. So you think if I put the analog out voltage on
                      Message 10 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Jong, the maf, then may be the easiest to simulate. I can output
                        voltages from my pc using the scada software. So you think if I put the
                        analog out voltage on the signal wire to the eec and the eec return tied
                        to the analog out ground that will be all that is needed? I do like that
                        for simpicity! I can test that tomorrow by simply taking a 1.5 volt
                        battery between the signal and return on the eec. If the data alogger
                        and digital dash shows 1.5 volts on the correct parameter, then that one
                        is done. Yes, the temp sensors are simple variable resistors. I used
                        the 10 turn pots to get more resolution and that worked. Now how do I
                        simulate a variable resistor with analog output voltages? I sense we
                        are nearing a breakthrough and close to educating me, lol. Dan Nicoson
                        has tried for a long time but I am pretty dense... He is the associate
                        I mentioned, not knowing whether or not he wanted to be associated with
                        me and my project right now....

                        mayf

                        jong kung wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > drmayf,
                        >
                        > > Yes sir, but I think I need to use the ref voltage coming from the EEC.
                        > > If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot
                        > > unconnected and put the EEC return on the wiper, I think I will have
                        > > it.. Again, it is that pesky pot I am trying to get rid of in the
                        > > automatic simulation. If the pot tryout later this week works then I
                        > may
                        > > as you suggest just try putting voltages directly into the EEC brain
                        > box.
                        >
                        > Just in case, you need to know how POT work. It can either work as a
                        > variable resistor OR or as voltage divider. If you apply voltage (5v)
                        > and ground, then the output of the wiper is the voltage divider. This
                        > the configuration you use for MAF sensor.
                        >
                        > If you do NOT apply voltage, the wiper and the arm (terminal) becomes
                        > variable resistor. This the configuration for temp sensor.
                        >
                        > ====
                        >
                        > > If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot
                        >
                        > > unconnected
                        >
                        > No. The other end needs to be connected to ground. That's your
                        > missing link to simulating the MAF sensor.
                        >
                        > Jong
                        >
                        > <snip
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • A6intruder@myo-p.com
                        Mayf & all, I just fired up my Mustang in the garage and checked the four wires with a volt meter. With reference to the schematic: VM ground was connected to
                        Message 11 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Mayf & all,

                          I just fired up my Mustang in the garage and checked the four wires with a volt meter.

                          With reference to the schematic:

                          VM ground was connected to Gnd-blk.

                          Pos probe to Vpwr-red gives 12 volts as expected (actually 14+ volts with engine running)

                          Pos probe to MAF sig-blu/red gives the 0 - 5 volt signal as expected. With the engine running I only blipped the throttle a little bit and it went from .8volts up to about 1.3 volts.

                          Pos probe to MAF Rtn-9-tan/blu gives 7mV. So this wire acts as a signal ground while running.

                          Hope that helps you guys figure this out.

                          Have fun,

                          Dan Nicoson
                          Austin Surplus Industrial, Inc.
                          Office: 512-852-9589
                          Cell: 512-906-9340
                          www.asisurplus.com


                          The mass air flow has wires from the EEC. Two are 12 volt power and
                          ground. The other two are signal and return to the EEC. I believe and I
                          will test this later this week, that I can hook up a pot same as teh
                          temp sensors and simulate the mass air flow as well. The rang of
                          interest is 0 - 5 volts. Calibration is unimportant since the cal curve
                          of flow vs voltage is resident in the EEC. It reads teh voltage and
                          looks up a function and solves it for the mass air flow. I just need
                          some way to input voltages to the system without using the pots while
                          still using the reference signals from the EEC.
                        • drmayf
                          Dan! Thanks, for jumping in. yeah, the temps are variable resistors via pots right now. So youthink there is am IC somewhere out there that has built in
                          Message 12 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dan! Thanks, for jumping in. yeah, the temps are variable resistors via
                            pots right now. So youthink there is am IC somewhere out there that has
                            built in resistance that can be changed by sending a digital signal to
                            it and telling it to go to the rightvalue? That would work all right. I
                            have that capability if I can find the IC, lol.... Dan, as to the maf
                            voltages,,, yes, I have run teh maf all the way to 1740 kg/hr simulated
                            flow at 8000 rpm. However, my unit would not recognize that the maf
                            works unless the dizzy is turning. Must be some kind of internal eec
                            interlock. Ie, can't be geting big of a signal with no rpm...kinda
                            thing. temps yeah they work with out the dizzy. In fack this whole thing
                            work spretty well as it sits right now in manual mode. It just takes a
                            long time to set up each data point: set rpm, set tps, set maf, set
                            temps, record, repeat 200 more times to get a full rpm spread.... I have
                            been working on the dizzy motor controller voltage to get 1000 - 6500
                            rpm. I have that curve and I have plotted it vs time it takes to make a
                            run on the salt. I even included the automatic tranny shift points,
                            lol... I have a similar voltage vs time curve for the tps signal inputs.
                            I will convert those to piecemeal continuous curves to be solved as a
                            funtion of elapsed time. Then the time will be used to determine the
                            voltage outputs from the A/O card to the various pieces. This part is
                            not hard although, up front, tedious.

                            mayf


                            A6intruder@... wrote:

                            > I just loaded the schematic for Drmayf's simulator.
                            >
                            > Mayf, your two temp sensors are variable resistors. To get that action
                            > from
                            > your computer control I think you would want to find an IC that will vary
                            > its resistance. I used one a long time ago in my secondary injector driver
                            > circuit. Most of them are digitally controlled, don't know if your control
                            > software can send out 8-bit or higher digital control signals. You will
                            > need the digital gurus on this list to help you sort that out.
                            >
                            > Jong, I tested the circuit you see on my own Mustang computer before
                            > sending
                            > it to Mayf. My car is a close enough model to simulate what Mayf sees on
                            > his older Ford computer. I couldn't get the MAF part to work as it should
                            > have. In the past I have had a volt meter hooked to the MAF signal return
                            > line and have definitely seen the 0 - 5 volt signal when driving my car.
                            >
                            > Mayf, have you ever tested the MAF portion of the simulator with the dizzy
                            > turning at speed? You mentioned once that some of the signals wouldn't
                            > register on the Binary Editor display if the distributor wasn't turning.
                            > When I tested on my car, the engine was Off, Key ON. So I got both
                            > temps to
                            > register and the TPs to register but no MAF response. Maybe since my dizzy
                            > wasn't turning, the EEC code wouldn't process the MAF signal?
                            >
                            > I hope Jong a & the others can help you get this sorted out.
                            >
                            > Later,
                            >
                            > Dan Nicoson
                            > Austin Surplus Industrial, Inc.
                            > Office: 512-852-9589
                            > Cell: 512-906-9340
                            > www.asisurplus.com
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:Electronics_101%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > [mailto:Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:Electronics_101%40yahoogroups.com>]On Behalf Of jong kung
                            > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:09 PM
                            > To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:Electronics_101%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Hardware in the Loop Simulator
                            >
                            > drmayf,
                            >
                            > > Yes sir, but I think I need to use the ref voltage coming from the EEC.
                            > > If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot
                            > > unconnected and put the EEC return on the wiper, I think I will have
                            > > it.. Again, it is that pesky pot I am trying to get rid of in the
                            > > automatic simulation. If the pot tryout later this week works then I may
                            > > as you suggest just try putting voltages directly into the EEC brain
                            > box.
                            >
                            > Just in case, you need to know how POT work. It can either work as a
                            > variable resistor OR or as voltage divider. If you apply voltage (5v) and
                            > ground, then the output of the wiper is the voltage divider. This the
                            > configuration you use for MAF sensor.
                            >
                            > If you do NOT apply voltage, the wiper and the arm (terminal) becomes
                            > variable resistor. This the configuration for temp sensor.
                            >
                            > ====
                            >
                            > > If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot
                            >
                            > > unconnected
                            >
                            > No. The other end needs to be connected to ground. That's your missing
                            > link to simulating the MAF sensor.
                            >
                            > Jong
                            >
                            > <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
                            >
                            > Bonnie Hunt Show fan. The best show on TV (American TV) !! :-)
                            >
                            > http://www.bonniehunt.com/ <http://www.bonniehunt.com/>
                            >
                            > Save the Bonnie Hunt Show !!
                            >
                            > <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Please trim excess when replyingYahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                          • A6intruder@myo-p.com
                            Mayf, Get someone to weigh in on using the battery to test. If there isn t enough input resistance in the EEC, you could fry that input. Those little
                            Message 13 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Mayf,

                              Get someone to weigh in on using the battery to test. If there isn't enough
                              input resistance in the EEC, you could fry that input. Those little
                              batteries can put out more amps than you realize when Murphy's Law is
                              ignored.

                              Dan Nicoson
                              Austin Surplus Industrial, Inc.
                              Office: 512-852-9589
                              Cell: 512-906-9340
                              www.asisurplus.com

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of drmayf
                              Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:50 PM
                              To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Hardware in the Loop Simulator

                              Jong, the maf, then may be the easiest to simulate. I can output
                              voltages from my pc using the scada software. So you think if I put the
                              analog out voltage on the signal wire to the eec and the eec return tied
                              to the analog out ground that will be all that is needed? I do like that
                              for simpicity! I can test that tomorrow by simply taking a 1.5 volt
                              battery between the signal and return on the eec. If the data alogger
                              and digital dash shows 1.5 volts on the correct parameter, then that one
                              is done. Yes, the temp sensors are simple variable resistors. I used
                              the 10 turn pots to get more resolution and that worked. Now how do I
                              simulate a variable resistor with analog output voltages? I sense we
                              are nearing a breakthrough and close to educating me, lol. Dan Nicoson
                              has tried for a long time but I am pretty dense... He is the associate
                              I mentioned, not knowing whether or not he wanted to be associated with
                              me and my project right now....

                              mayf

                              jong kung wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > drmayf,
                              >
                              > > Yes sir, but I think I need to use the ref voltage coming from the EEC.
                              > > If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot
                              > > unconnected and put the EEC return on the wiper, I think I will have
                              > > it.. Again, it is that pesky pot I am trying to get rid of in the
                              > > automatic simulation. If the pot tryout later this week works then I
                              > may
                              > > as you suggest just try putting voltages directly into the EEC brain
                              > box.
                              >
                              > Just in case, you need to know how POT work. It can either work as a
                              > variable resistor OR or as voltage divider. If you apply voltage (5v)
                              > and ground, then the output of the wiper is the voltage divider. This
                              > the configuration you use for MAF sensor.
                              >
                              > If you do NOT apply voltage, the wiper and the arm (terminal) becomes
                              > variable resistor. This the configuration for temp sensor.
                              >
                              > ====
                              >
                              > > If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot
                              >
                              > > unconnected
                              >
                              > No. The other end needs to be connected to ground. That's your
                              > missing link to simulating the MAF sensor.
                              >
                              > Jong
                              >
                              > <snip
                              >
                              >
                              >





                              ------------------------------------

                              Please trim excess when replyingYahoo! Groups Links
                            • A6intruder@myo-p.com
                              Digitally-Controlled Potentiometer. All kinds on Digi-Key and Mouser. I can definitely see automating this. Gotta go, Dan Nicoson Austin Surplus Industrial,
                              Message 14 of 27 , Mar 1, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Digitally-Controlled Potentiometer. All kinds on Digi-Key and Mouser.

                                I can definitely see automating this.

                                Gotta go,

                                Dan Nicoson
                                Austin Surplus Industrial, Inc.
                                Office: 512-852-9589
                                Cell: 512-906-9340
                                www.asisurplus.com

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of drmayf
                                Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 9:04 PM
                                To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Hardware in the Loop Simulator

                                Dan! Thanks, for jumping in. yeah, the temps are variable resistors via
                                pots right now. So youthink there is am IC somewhere out there that has
                                built in resistance that can be changed by sending a digital signal to
                                it and telling it to go to the rightvalue? That would work all right. I
                                have that capability if I can find the IC, lol.... Dan, as to the maf
                                voltages,,, yes, I have run teh maf all the way to 1740 kg/hr simulated
                                flow at 8000 rpm. However, my unit would not recognize that the maf
                                works unless the dizzy is turning. Must be some kind of internal eec
                                interlock. Ie, can't be geting big of a signal with no rpm...kinda
                                thing. temps yeah they work with out the dizzy. In fack this whole thing
                                work spretty well as it sits right now in manual mode. It just takes a
                                long time to set up each data point: set rpm, set tps, set maf, set
                                temps, record, repeat 200 more times to get a full rpm spread.... I have
                                been working on the dizzy motor controller voltage to get 1000 - 6500
                                rpm. I have that curve and I have plotted it vs time it takes to make a
                                run on the salt. I even included the automatic tranny shift points,
                                lol... I have a similar voltage vs time curve for the tps signal inputs.
                                I will convert those to piecemeal continuous curves to be solved as a
                                funtion of elapsed time. Then the time will be used to determine the
                                voltage outputs from the A/O card to the various pieces. This part is
                                not hard although, up front, tedious.

                                mayf


                                A6intruder@... wrote:

                                > I just loaded the schematic for Drmayf's simulator.
                                >
                                > Mayf, your two temp sensors are variable resistors. To get that action
                                > from
                                > your computer control I think you would want to find an IC that will vary
                                > its resistance. I used one a long time ago in my secondary injector driver
                                > circuit. Most of them are digitally controlled, don't know if your control
                                > software can send out 8-bit or higher digital control signals. You will
                                > need the digital gurus on this list to help you sort that out.
                                >
                                > Jong, I tested the circuit you see on my own Mustang computer before
                                > sending
                                > it to Mayf. My car is a close enough model to simulate what Mayf sees on
                                > his older Ford computer. I couldn't get the MAF part to work as it should
                                > have. In the past I have had a volt meter hooked to the MAF signal return
                                > line and have definitely seen the 0 - 5 volt signal when driving my car.
                                >
                                > Mayf, have you ever tested the MAF portion of the simulator with the dizzy
                                > turning at speed? You mentioned once that some of the signals wouldn't
                                > register on the Binary Editor display if the distributor wasn't turning.
                                > When I tested on my car, the engine was Off, Key ON. So I got both
                                > temps to
                                > register and the TPs to register but no MAF response. Maybe since my dizzy
                                > wasn't turning, the EEC code wouldn't process the MAF signal?
                                >
                                > I hope Jong a & the others can help you get this sorted out.
                                >
                                > Later,
                                >
                                > Dan Nicoson
                                > Austin Surplus Industrial, Inc.
                                > Office: 512-852-9589
                                > Cell: 512-906-9340
                                > www.asisurplus.com
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:Electronics_101%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > [mailto:Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:Electronics_101%40yahoogroups.com>]On Behalf Of jong kung
                                > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:09 PM
                                > To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                                > <mailto:Electronics_101%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > Subject: Re: [Electronics_101] Hardware in the Loop Simulator
                                >
                                > drmayf,
                                >
                                > > Yes sir, but I think I need to use the ref voltage coming from the EEC.
                                > > If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot
                                > > unconnected and put the EEC return on the wiper, I think I will have
                                > > it.. Again, it is that pesky pot I am trying to get rid of in the
                                > > automatic simulation. If the pot tryout later this week works then I may
                                > > as you suggest just try putting voltages directly into the EEC brain
                                > box.
                                >
                                > Just in case, you need to know how POT work. It can either work as a
                                > variable resistor OR or as voltage divider. If you apply voltage (5v) and
                                > ground, then the output of the wiper is the voltage divider. This the
                                > configuration you use for MAF sensor.
                                >
                                > If you do NOT apply voltage, the wiper and the arm (terminal) becomes
                                > variable resistor. This the configuration for temp sensor.
                                >
                                > ====
                                >
                                > > If I put that on top of the pot and leave the other end of the pot
                                >
                                > > unconnected
                                >
                                > No. The other end needs to be connected to ground. That's your missing
                                > link to simulating the MAF sensor.
                                >
                                > Jong
                                >
                                > <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
                                >
                                > Bonnie Hunt Show fan. The best show on TV (American TV) !! :-)
                                >
                                > http://www.bonniehunt.com/ <http://www.bonniehunt.com/>
                                >
                                > Save the Bonnie Hunt Show !!
                                >
                                > <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Please trim excess when replyingYahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >





                                ------------------------------------

                                Please trim excess when replyingYahoo! Groups Links
                              • jong kung
                                Dan, ... Can you clarify dizzy ?  Is that short for Distributor? ... Am I correct in assuming that you were trying to get the MAF reading using some sort of
                                Message 15 of 27 , Mar 2, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dan,


                                  > Mayf, have you ever tested the MAF portion of the simulator with the dizzy
                                  > turning at speed?

                                  Can you clarify "dizzy"?  Is that short for Distributor?

                                  =====

                                  > I couldn't get the MAF part to work as it should
                                  > have. In the past I have had a volt meter hooked to the MAF signal return
                                  > line and have definitely seen the 0 - 5 volt signal when driving my car.

                                  Am I correct in assuming that you were trying to get the MAF reading using some sort of ODBII ?  Or was that using a volt meter?

                                  ======

                                  > Maybe since my dizzy
                                  > wasn't turning, the EEC code wouldn't process the MAF signal?

                                  I'm guessing that too.  These engine computers have a lot of logic (including logic to go around certain values - if they don't make sense).  As you said, how can air flow if the engine is off? So the computer might be ignoring certain values.

                                  Obviously it should ignore it for engine function, but it should NOT ignore it for diagnostics.


                                  Jong




                                  <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>



                                  Bonnie Hunt Show fan. The best show on TV (American TV) !! :-)



                                  http://www.bonniehunt.com/



                                  Save the Bonnie Hunt Show !!



                                  <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>

















                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • jong kung
                                  Mayf, ... Yes.  It is called digital Potentiometer   They use it in sound systems (for digital volume control).  The problem is that your PC has voltage
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Mar 2, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Mayf,


                                    > So youthink there is am IC somewhere out there that has
                                    > built in resistance that can be changed by sending a digital signal to
                                    > it and telling it to go to the rightvalue? That would work all right

                                    Yes.  It is called "digital Potentiometer"  They use it in sound systems (for digital volume control).  The problem is that your PC has voltage out.  The digital potentiometer requires either pulses (up, down) or some sort of serial communication (SPI - if I understand it correctly).  I have never used a digital potentiometer.

                                    You need to convert your PC analog volt out to resistance.  The "easiest" way to do that is with some sort of transistors (transistor = trans + resistor).  I'll have to get back to you on this circuit and work out the values.  But first, can you tell if the PC analog volt out is 0-5v, or 0-12v?

                                    =====

                                    > I have run teh maf all the way to 1740 kg/hr simulated
                                    > flow at 8000 rpm. However, my unit would not recognize that the maf
                                    > works unless the dizzy is turning. Must be some kind of internal eec
                                    > interlock.  Ie, can't be geting big of a signal with no rpm...kinda
                                    > thing.

                                    Yes, I do believe the engine computer give you "filtered" reading.  Maybe down the line you may want to "simulate" the engine running by hooking up a oscillator / function generator / signal gerator (translation: 555 IC).  Or maybe it is simpler to just run the engine.  :-)

                                    > temps yeah they work with out the dizzy.

                                    My understanding of engine computer (ECU or EEC) is that they require certain parameters (coolant temp, air temp, throttle position, etc.) even before the engine starts.  When the engine is dead cold, it needs to run it extra rich as gasoline just won't atomize in sub-zero temp.  So I'm assuming it needs this info BEFORE engine start.


                                    Jong

                                    <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>



                                    Bonnie Hunt Show fan. The best show on TV (American TV) !! :-)



                                    http://www.bonniehunt.com/



                                    Save the Bonnie Hunt Show !!



                                    <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>







                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • jong kung
                                    Mayf, ... A short circuited AA battery can easily put out few amps (enough to make paper clip wire glow red hot).  So this is a serious consideration. The
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Mar 2, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Mayf,


                                      > Get someone to weigh in on using the battery to test. If there isn't enough

                                      > input resistance in the EEC, you could fry that input. Those little

                                      > batteries can put out more amps than you realize when Murphy's Law is

                                      > ignored.


                                      A short circuited AA battery can easily put out few amps (enough to make paper clip wire glow red hot).  So this is a serious consideration.

                                      The voltage sense circuit (the input to the MAF signal out), should have fairly high resistance (impedance).  If it didn't, the voltage sense circuit itself could affect the voltage (loading it down).  So I'm fairly certain it would be OK to use the AA battery (just like hooking up AA battery to a volt meter / DMM)

                                      But just to be safe, I would start out with 100 - 200 Ohm resistor IN SERIES with the AA battery.  If the voltage sense circuit already have few K of resistance, another 100 ohm won't make any diff. 

                                      But if the voltage sense circuit has near zero resistance, then the 100 ohm series resistor will limit the current to few milliamps ( AMP = Volt / resistance).  That comes to only 0.0225 watt - pretty safe.

                                      I would do the same with PC analog volt out (100 ohm series resistor).  In fact I would just leave it in there to be safe (always).

                                      As you stated, the EEC (engine computer) are not cheap.


                                      Jong

                                      <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>



                                      Bonnie Hunt Show fan. The best show on TV (American TV) !! :-)



                                      http://www.bonniehunt.com/



                                      Save the Bonnie Hunt Show !!



                                      <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>


















                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • jong kung
                                      Mayf, ... Yes. I think it is almost that simple.  I would add 100 ohm resistor in series (as noted by my earlier email).  Your PC is putting out volts, and
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Mar 2, 2010
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                                        Mayf,


                                        > So you think if I put the
                                        > analog out voltage on the signal wire to the eec and the eec return tied
                                        > to the analog out ground that will be all that is needed? I do like that
                                        > for simpicity!

                                        Yes. I think it is almost that simple.  I would add 100 ohm resistor in series (as noted by my earlier email).  Your PC is putting out volts, and your EEC is sensing volts (perfect match).

                                        :-)

                                        ======

                                        > Now how do I
                                        > simulate a variable resistor with analog output voltages?

                                        Transistors!   :-)

                                        The world have moved on to op-amps but transistors are still useful (I guess).

                                        Is your PC output 0-12v or 0-5v ?

                                        =====

                                        But then again, in the end the ECU (EEC) is suppose to convert that (the voltage divider) to voltage anyway.  I wonder if voltage can be injected directly... ???  I have to think about this.  This could be ultra simple too.

                                        :-)

                                        =====

                                        > I sense we
                                        > are nearing a breakthrough and close to educating me,

                                        I think so too (about the breakthrough).  As for educating you...

                                        :-)

                                        =====

                                        Oh now that chips are down, I was kidding about getting a ride (don't hold me to it).  I ain't getting into anything that goes that fast!  I crap in my pants every time I sit in a jet plane taking off.


                                        Jong

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                                      • A6intruder@myo-p.com
                                        Yes, distributor, sorry. Dan Nicoson Austin Surplus Industrial, Inc. Office: 512-852-9589 Cell: 512-906-9340 www.asisurplus.com ... From:
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Mar 2, 2010
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                                          Yes, distributor, sorry.

                                          Dan Nicoson
                                          Austin Surplus Industrial, Inc.
                                          Office: 512-852-9589
                                          Cell: 512-906-9340
                                          www.asisurplus.com

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                                          [mailto:Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of jong kung
                                          Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:04 AM
                                          To: Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: RE: [Electronics_101] Hardware in the Loop Simulator

                                          Dan,


                                          > Mayf, have you ever tested the MAF portion of the simulator with the dizzy
                                          > turning at speed?

                                          Can you clarify "dizzy"? Is that short for Distributor?

                                          =====

                                          > I couldn't get the MAF part to work as it should
                                          > have. In the past I have had a volt meter hooked to the MAF signal return
                                          > line and have definitely seen the 0 - 5 volt signal when driving my car.

                                          Am I correct in assuming that you were trying to get the MAF reading using
                                          some sort of ODBII ? Or was that using a volt meter?

                                          ======

                                          > Maybe since my dizzy
                                          > wasn't turning, the EEC code wouldn't process the MAF signal?

                                          I'm guessing that too. These engine computers have a lot of logic
                                          (including logic to go around certain values - if they don't make sense).
                                          As you said, how can air flow if the engine is off? So the computer might be
                                          ignoring certain values.

                                          Obviously it should ignore it for engine function, but it should NOT ignore
                                          it for diagnostics.


                                          Jong




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                                        • drmayf
                                          Jong, thanks to you are the others I have a greater understandingof what I need to do regards the temp sensors. I had previously looked at the motor driven
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Mar 2, 2010
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                                            Jong, thanks to you are the others I have a greater understandingof what
                                            I need to do regards the temp sensors. I had previously looked at the
                                            motor driven pots and dismissed them. However, it looks as if Imight
                                            need to reevaluate. Yesterday, as soon as the light bulb went off in my
                                            head, I did a very cursory search for resistors that were either
                                            digitally controlled or voltage controlled. I found someting that is
                                            very interesting, especially for an experimenter, that others on this
                                            list might find interesting as well. Here is the link:

                                            http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Voltage-Controlled-Resistor-and-Use-It/

                                            It is a photocell which has an led glued to it and painted black to keep
                                            out stray light. The LED is driven by a variable voltage source and the
                                            light causes the photocell to change it's resistance. If the photocell
                                            is connected to the temp sensor leads in my simulator and if I can
                                            control the light output sufficiently then the issue is solved. Dan
                                            looked at Digikey and found that photocells are available in many
                                            resistor value ranges so a appropriate range can be selected. I am as
                                            dumb as a bag of hammers regarding such but I wonder if the small grain
                                            of wheat incandescent bulbs might be a better choice for the light
                                            source. In my case the light bulb source is, of course, an analog
                                            channel output of up to 5 volts. Seems to me that this approach might
                                            work well.

                                            Comments?

                                            drmayf
                                            jong kung wrote:

                                            > Mayf,
                                            >
                                            > > Get someone to weigh in on using the battery to test. If there isn't
                                            > enough
                                            >
                                            > > input resistance in the EEC, you could fry that input. Those little
                                            >
                                            > > batteries can put out more amps than you realize when Murphy's Law is
                                            >
                                            > > ignored.
                                            >
                                            > A short circuited AA battery can easily put out few amps (enough to
                                            > make paper clip wire glow red hot). So this is a serious consideration.
                                            >
                                            > The voltage sense circuit (the input to the MAF signal out), should
                                            > have fairly high resistance (impedance). If it didn't, the voltage
                                            > sense circuit itself could affect the voltage (loading it down). So
                                            > I'm fairly certain it would be OK to use the AA battery (just like
                                            > hooking up AA battery to a volt meter / DMM)
                                            >
                                            > But just to be safe, I would start out with 100 - 200 Ohm resistor IN
                                            > SERIES with the AA battery. If the voltage sense circuit already have
                                            > few K of resistance, another 100 ohm won't make any diff.
                                            >
                                            > But if the voltage sense circuit has near zero resistance, then the
                                            > 100 ohm series resistor will limit the current to few milliamps ( AMP
                                            > = Volt / resistance). That comes to only 0.0225 watt - pretty safe.
                                            >
                                            > I would do the same with PC analog volt out (100 ohm series resistor).
                                            > In fact I would just leave it in there to be safe (always).
                                            >
                                            > As you stated, the EEC (engine computer) are not cheap.
                                            >
                                            > Jong
                                            >
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                                          • jong kung
                                            drmayf, ... That is a possibility.  But we EE snobs likes to stay all electronic. ... That s very cleaver.  I would encase it in epoxy and then wrap it in
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Mar 2, 2010
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                                              drmayf,


                                              > I had previously looked at the
                                              > motor driven pots and dismissed them.

                                              That is a possibility.  But we EE snobs likes to stay all electronic.

                                              :-)

                                              ====

                                              > I found someting that is
                                              > very interesting, especially for an experimenter, that others on this
                                              > list might find interesting as well. Here is the link:
                                              >
                                              > http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Voltage-Controlled-Resistor-and-Use-It/

                                              That's very cleaver.  I would encase it in epoxy and then wrap it in shrink wrap (we EE snobs love shrink wraps too).  :-)

                                              ====

                                              > If the photocell
                                              > is connected to the temp sensor leads in my simulator and if I can
                                              > control the light output sufficiently then the issue is solved.

                                              I think this is worth the try.  I would be interested in how this works for you.

                                              This is a special case (for your need) because in EE, we often need a solution that reacts very quickly (like few thousands of times per second).  But water temp sensors (simulator) only need to react at most few times per second.

                                              ====

                                              > I am as
                                              > dumb as a bag of hammers regarding such

                                              Stop it.  I'm usually at the monthly "dumb as bag of hammer" local chapter and you weren't there.

                                              ====

                                              > but I wonder if the small grain
                                              > of wheat incandescent bulbs might be a better choice for the light
                                              > source.

                                              probably.  But LEDs don't burn out if you don't over drive them.  Once you get a working solution it will continue to work indefinitely.  But a regular bulb (like found on a flashlights) would eventually burn out.  So when it burns out, you are back to debugging what failed and how to fix it.

                                              If you are just interesting in seeing if the solution would work, then by all mean.  All prototypes / proof of concept are just that - initial stab at the project.
                                              ====

                                              Also don't forget the kind of LED probably affects the total resistance (of CdS).  So if it doesn't work with one LED, try another LED (of different brightness or even color).  This really sounds like a possible solution for your need.


                                              Jong

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                                            • alienrelics
                                              ... Too bad there isn t really any money in writing instructables. I don t know if I was the first (probably not), but I built a bunch of those in the mid- to
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Mar 2, 2010
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                                                --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, jong kung <jongkung01@...> wrote:

                                                >
                                                > > I found someting that is
                                                > > very interesting, especially for an experimenter, that others on this
                                                > > list might find interesting as well. Here is the link:
                                                > >
                                                > > http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Voltage-Controlled-Resistor-and-Use-It/
                                                >
                                                > That's very cleaver.  I would encase it in epoxy and then wrap it in shrink wrap (we EE snobs love shrink wraps too).  :-)


                                                Too bad there isn't really any money in writing instructables. I don't know if I was the first (probably not), but I built a bunch of those in the mid- to late-70s.

                                                Steve Greenfield
                                              • Howard Hansen
                                                If your photo sensitive resistor method doesn t live up to expectations you could use a thermistor and a heater to create your variable resistor. That is
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Mar 2, 2010
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  If your photo sensitive resistor method doesn't live up to expectations
                                                  you could use a thermistor and a heater to create your variable
                                                  resistor. That is mount a linear voltage regulator and a thermistor on
                                                  a small heat sink. If you connect the output of the linear voltage
                                                  regulator to a fixed load resistor, use your SCADA to control the linear
                                                  voltage regulator reference voltage you can vary the current flowing
                                                  through the linear voltage regulator and the load resistor. The
                                                  temperature of the heat sink and the thermistor will then be
                                                  proportional to the current flowing through the linear regulator and
                                                  load resistor. The thermistor used for simulation would connect directly
                                                  to your ECC. A semiconductor temperature sensor could also be mounted
                                                  on the heat sink to provide feedback to your SCADA there by creating a
                                                  low cost temperature controller.

                                                  This suggestion is based on one of Stefan's previous messages in which
                                                  he used a linear voltage regulator as heater instead of using a nichrome
                                                  resistor.

                                                  Howard


                                                  drmayf wrote:
                                                  > Jong, thanks to you are the others I have a greater understandingof what
                                                  > I need to do regards the temp sensors. I had previously looked at the
                                                  > motor driven pots and dismissed them. However, it looks as if Imight
                                                  > need to reevaluate. Yesterday, as soon as the light bulb went off in my
                                                  > head, I did a very cursory search for resistors that were either
                                                  > digitally controlled or voltage controlled. I found someting that is
                                                  > very interesting, especially for an experimenter, that others on this
                                                  > list might find interesting as well. Here is the link:
                                                  >
                                                  > http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Voltage-Controlled-Resistor-and-Use-It/
                                                  >
                                                  > It is a photocell which has an led glued to it and painted black to keep
                                                  > out stray light. The LED is driven by a variable voltage source and the
                                                  > light causes the photocell to change it's resistance. If the photocell
                                                  > is connected to the temp sensor leads in my simulator and if I can
                                                  > control the light output sufficiently then the issue is solved. Dan
                                                  > looked at Digikey and found that photocells are available in many
                                                  > resistor value ranges so a appropriate range can be selected. I am as
                                                  > dumb as a bag of hammers regarding such but I wonder if the small grain
                                                  > of wheat incandescent bulbs might be a better choice for the light
                                                  > source. In my case the light bulb source is, of course, an analog
                                                  > channel output of up to 5 volts. Seems to me that this approach might
                                                  > work well.
                                                  >
                                                  > Comments?
                                                  >
                                                  > drmayf
                                                  > jong kung wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • drmayf
                                                  Jong, all.. Well, I went out and fiddled with teh simulator a bit this morning. The dc motor controler I use to spin the dizzy (that thing that goes around in
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Mar 2, 2010
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Jong, all..
                                                    Well, I went out and fiddled with teh simulator a bit this morning. The
                                                    dc motor controler I use to spin the dizzy (that thing that goes around
                                                    in circles all the time..the distributor) to the rpm I want was not up
                                                    to the job. I had ordered a new one and it arrived this morning. I
                                                    installed it and tested it from 500 rpm to more than 6500 rpm and that
                                                    made me happy. I then tackled the maf voltage input simulation. For the
                                                    actual 5 volt supply, I just tapped the pot next to this one which gets
                                                    it 5 volt reference from the EEC. Afer a few misteps figuring which way
                                                    the pot needed to be wired with power, ground, and output and the signal
                                                    return, I got it to work! So now the maf is functionally simulated with
                                                    10 turn pot that gets 5 volts from the EEC as a reference (I figured
                                                    that that voltage wouldn't hurt anything). The wiper connects to the
                                                    signal wire going to the EEC and the common return connects to the
                                                    signal return at the EEC. Because I get the voltage from the TPS I also
                                                    provided a ground for the signal return to the TPS ground so they would
                                                    all be common. So it looks like I can indeed just put the analog output
                                                    signal fropm teh scada das directly on the EEC signal wire and it will
                                                    be happy as long as the gounds are all connected together. That snake
                                                    has been killed! Now the Temp sensor simulation.... well, I thought I
                                                    had a photocell but turns out I was wrong. wrong in that it is laying
                                                    loose...it is installed in a security light that went frizzle. So I have
                                                    to dismember that to get the photocell. I'll do that this afternoon and
                                                    see if I can some how get that working tomorrow. Now before someone say
                                                    why not run down to Radio Shack and get one.. well, I live in Pahrump,
                                                    NV. While it is not the end of the universe, it does live next door. It
                                                    is 70 miles (one way!) to the nearest RS and almost the same to Fry's.
                                                    Our RS went belly up which should give a good clue as to the nature of
                                                    Pahrump, lol.... So I have to do things sporatically...

                                                    more later..

                                                    drmayf

                                                    jong kung wrote:

                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > drmayf,
                                                    >
                                                    > > I had previously looked at the
                                                    > > motor driven pots and dismissed them.
                                                    >
                                                    > That is a possibility. But we EE snobs likes to stay all electronic.
                                                    >
                                                    > :-)
                                                    >
                                                    > ====
                                                    >
                                                    > > I found someting that is
                                                    > > very interesting, especially for an experimenter, that others on this
                                                    > > list might find interesting as well. Here is the link:
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Voltage-Controlled-Resistor-and-Use-It/
                                                    > <http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Voltage-Controlled-Resistor-and-Use-It/>
                                                    >
                                                    > That's very cleaver. I would encase it in epoxy and then wrap it in
                                                    > shrink wrap (we EE snobs love shrink wraps too). :-)
                                                    >
                                                    > ====
                                                    >
                                                    > > If the photocell
                                                    > > is connected to the temp sensor leads in my simulator and if I can
                                                    > > control the light output sufficiently then the issue is solved.
                                                    >
                                                    > I think this is worth the try. I would be interested in how this
                                                    > works for you.
                                                    >
                                                    > This is a special case (for your need) because in EE, we often need a
                                                    > solution that reacts very quickly (like few thousands of times per
                                                    > second). But water temp sensors (simulator) only need to react at
                                                    > most few times per second.
                                                    >
                                                    > ====
                                                    >
                                                    > > I am as
                                                    > > dumb as a bag of hammers regarding such
                                                    >
                                                    > Stop it. I'm usually at the monthly "dumb as bag of hammer" local
                                                    > chapter and you weren't there.
                                                    >
                                                    > ====
                                                    >
                                                    > > but I wonder if the small grain
                                                    > > of wheat incandescent bulbs might be a better choice for the light
                                                    > > source.
                                                    >
                                                    > probably. But LEDs don't burn out if you don't over drive them. Once
                                                    > you get a working solution it will continue to work indefinitely. But
                                                    > a regular bulb (like found on a flashlights) would eventually burn
                                                    > out. So when it burns out, you are back to debugging what failed and
                                                    > how to fix it.
                                                    >
                                                    > If you are just interesting in seeing if the solution would work, then
                                                    > by all mean. All prototypes / proof of concept are just that -
                                                    > initial stab at the project.
                                                    > ====
                                                    >
                                                    > Also don't forget the kind of LED probably affects the total
                                                    > resistance (of CdS). So if it doesn't work with one LED, try another
                                                    > LED (of different brightness or even color). This really sounds like
                                                    > a possible solution for your need.
                                                    >
                                                    > Jong
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                  • drmayf
                                                    Howard, I think I undertstand what you said, but my eyes watered a lot reading it, lol... Use the voltage regulator as the heater for a thermistor. If the
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Mar 2, 2010
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Howard, I think I undertstand what you said, but my eyes watered a lot
                                                      reading it, lol... Use the voltage regulator as the heater for a
                                                      thermistor. If the CdS and light source does not work, I will give this
                                                      a try. I will search trhough teh archives to see if I can find the thread.

                                                      Thanks!

                                                      drmayf
                                                      Howard Hansen wrote:

                                                      >If your photo sensitive resistor method doesn't live up to expectations
                                                      >you could use a thermistor and a heater to create your variable
                                                      >resistor. That is mount a linear voltage regulator and a thermistor on
                                                      >a small heat sink. If you connect the output of the linear voltage
                                                      >regulator to a fixed load resistor, use your SCADA to control the linear
                                                      >voltage regulator reference voltage you can vary the current flowing
                                                      >through the linear voltage regulator and the load resistor. The
                                                      >temperature of the heat sink and the thermistor will then be
                                                      >proportional to the current flowing through the linear regulator and
                                                      >load resistor. The thermistor used for simulation would connect directly
                                                      >to your ECC. A semiconductor temperature sensor could also be mounted
                                                      >on the heat sink to provide feedback to your SCADA there by creating a
                                                      >low cost temperature controller.
                                                      >
                                                      >This suggestion is based on one of Stefan's previous messages in which
                                                      >he used a linear voltage regulator as heater instead of using a nichrome
                                                      >resistor.
                                                      >
                                                      >Howard
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >drmayf wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >>Jong, thanks to you are the others I have a greater understandingof what
                                                      >>I need to do regards the temp sensors. I had previously looked at the
                                                      >>motor driven pots and dismissed them. However, it looks as if Imight
                                                      >>need to reevaluate. Yesterday, as soon as the light bulb went off in my
                                                      >>head, I did a very cursory search for resistors that were either
                                                      >>digitally controlled or voltage controlled. I found someting that is
                                                      >>very interesting, especially for an experimenter, that others on this
                                                      >>list might find interesting as well. Here is the link:
                                                      >>
                                                      >>http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Voltage-Controlled-Resistor-and-Use-It/
                                                      >>
                                                      >>I
                                                      >>
                                                      snip
                                                    • jong kung
                                                      Dr. Mayf, ... Once the Vref goes through the pot, the internal resistance of the pot will probably be enough to stop any damage.  That s also the reason why I
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Mar 2, 2010
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                                                        Dr. Mayf,


                                                        > (I figured
                                                        > that that voltage wouldn't hurt anything).

                                                        Once the Vref goes through the pot, the internal resistance of the pot will probably be enough to stop any damage.  That's also the reason why I think there's a big internal resistance (impedance) inside the V sensor (V signal return from MAF).

                                                        ====

                                                        > That snake
                                                        > has been killed!

                                                        Snake? What ?? 

                                                        What did I miss?

                                                        :-)

                                                        ====

                                                        > Now the Temp sensor simulation.. ..
                                                        > ...
                                                        > well, I live in Pahrump,
                                                        > NV. While it is not the end of the universe, it does live next door. It
                                                        > is 70 miles (one way!) to the nearest RS and almost the same to Fry's.
                                                        > Our RS went belly up which should give a good clue as to the nature of
                                                        > Pahrump, lol....

                                                        So that's where the end of the universe is.

                                                        ===

                                                        A town with no RS... I can't get my mind around this one.


                                                        Jong


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