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Re: [Electronics_101] battery charging

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  • Tavys Ashcroft
    ... Well, it would work, but you d need a current source that could handle it. With batteries charging in series, you ll always deliver the same current
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 23, 2001
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      >but cant we charge them in parallel i.e connect all the batteries in
      >parallel
      >and then apply 1.5 volts.
      >
      >is configuration will require only 1.5 volts no matter how many
      >battries
      >are charged at a time.

      Well, it would work, but you'd need a current source that could
      handle it. With batteries charging in series, you'll always deliver
      the same current (well...not exactly...not all batteries have the
      same internal resistance). One battery at 1.5V versus two batteries
      at 3V will give you the same current because you've doubled your
      resistance along with the voltage. So your power supply will only
      need to deliver that much current no matter how many batteries you're
      charging.

      I'm not saying it's impossible, though, try it.

      No matter how your batteries are configured, series or parallel, it's
      still going to be the same wattage dissipated in the power supply.

      -Tavys
    • markallen
      Hello everybody. I recently put together a small solar powered project. It draws about 300ma at a regulated 5v. It runs great here in LA, but now I want to
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 24, 2001
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        Hello everybody.

        I recently put together a small solar powered project. It draws about
        300ma at a regulated 5v. It runs great here in LA, but now I want to
        bring it to London. Obviously I'm going to be getting a lot less
        power out of my panel. What I want to do now is attach a 12v lead
        acid battery that can power the project when the sun is behind the
        clouds (hopefully not all the time!). Is it complicated to power a
        circuit and charge the battery at the same time? Should I try and
        find an off the shelf solution to this problem, or is this something
        I can put together myself (with some help from the list)?

        Any advice greatly appreciated.

        Mark Allen
      • Michael Bloom
        Hello, Well, I ll give a stab at it. I havn t actually done anything like this but it sounds pretty simple. Off the top of my head I would think you could
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 25, 2001
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          Hello,
          Well, I'll give a stab at it. I havn't actually done anything
          like this but it sounds pretty simple. Off the top of my head I
          would think you could take your 12V battery run it through a 5V
          converter and tie the 5V and ground to the same terminal connections
          as where your solar pannel connects up. I think I would also add a
          diode to each line going to the solar panels, not sure on that but
          seems like a good idea just in case the battery tries to overpower
          the solar cells. Like I said, not sure on this idea but is sounds
          good in my head.

          Good luck
          Michael

          --- In Electronics_101@y..., markallen <markallen@m...> wrote:
          > Hello everybody.
          >
          > I recently put together a small solar powered project. It draws
          about
          > 300ma at a regulated 5v. It runs great here in LA, but now I want
          to
          > bring it to London. Obviously I'm going to be getting a lot less
          > power out of my panel. What I want to do now is attach a 12v lead
          > acid battery that can power the project when the sun is behind the
          > clouds (hopefully not all the time!). Is it complicated to power a
          > circuit and charge the battery at the same time? Should I try and
          > find an off the shelf solution to this problem, or is this
          something
          > I can put together myself (with some help from the list)?
          >
          > Any advice greatly appreciated.
          >
          > Mark Allen
        • Chris M
          I have 2 Exide 12v lead-acid batteries sitting in my garage. They re partially discharged, and I would like to recharge them in the hopes of ganging them to
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 15 4:53 PM
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            I have 2 Exide 12v lead-acid batteries sitting in my
            garage. They're partially discharged, and I would like
            to recharge them in the hopes of ganging them to
            produce the 24 volts needed by an 8" floppy drive. In
            the absence of a regulated 24 vdc supply...it's all
            I've got. I was wondering if I could utilize the wall
            wart that came with my portable jump starter (12 vdc @
            500ma IIRC) to recharge these batteries.
            Also, you're not supposed to deep discharge a
            lead-acid battery the way you should a ni-cad (to
            prolong it's life) before recharging, are you?

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          • rtstofer
            ... If they are automotive starting batteries, you aren t supposed to discharge them at all. If they are storage batteries then you can discharge them in
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 15 5:46 PM
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              --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Chris M <chrism3667@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have 2 Exide 12v lead-acid batteries sitting in my
              > garage. They're partially discharged, and I would like
              > to recharge them in the hopes of ganging them to
              > produce the 24 volts needed by an 8" floppy drive. In
              > the absence of a regulated 24 vdc supply...it's all
              > I've got. I was wondering if I could utilize the wall
              > wart that came with my portable jump starter (12 vdc @
              > 500ma IIRC) to recharge these batteries.
              > Also, you're not supposed to deep discharge a
              > lead-acid battery the way you should a ni-cad (to
              > prolong it's life) before recharging, are you?

              If they are automotive starting batteries, you aren't supposed to
              discharge them at all. If they are storage batteries then you can
              discharge them in accordance with the manufactuer's datasheet.

              Richard
            • Chris M
              don t have the datasheet. They re not auto batteries, storage I guess you could say (typical of alarms systems, ups ). Can I just plug in 12 v to recharge
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 15 5:54 PM
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                don't have the datasheet. They're not auto batteries,
                storage I guess you could say (typical of alarms
                systems, ups'). Can I just plug in 12 v to recharge
                them?

                --- rtstofer <rstofer@...> wrote:

                > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Chris M
                > <chrism3667@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > I have 2 Exide 12v lead-acid batteries sitting in
                > my
                > > garage. They're partially discharged, and I would
                > like
                > > to recharge them in the hopes of ganging them to
                > > produce the 24 volts needed by an 8" floppy drive.
                > In
                > > the absence of a regulated 24 vdc supply...it's
                > all
                > > I've got. I was wondering if I could utilize the
                > wall
                > > wart that came with my portable jump starter (12
                > vdc @
                > > 500ma IIRC) to recharge these batteries.
                > > Also, you're not supposed to deep discharge a
                > > lead-acid battery the way you should a ni-cad (to
                > > prolong it's life) before recharging, are you?
                >
                > If they are automotive starting batteries, you
                > aren't supposed to
                > discharge them at all. If they are storage
                > batteries then you can
                > discharge them in accordance with the manufactuer's
                > datasheet.
                >
                > Richard
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


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              • Roy J. Tellason
                ... No, you re not. For best life the thing to do is keep them charged. And not take them down too far, the deeper the cycles you use the fewer of them
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 15 7:00 PM
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                  On Wednesday 15 February 2006 07:53 pm, Chris M wrote:
                  > I have 2 Exide 12v lead-acid batteries sitting in my
                  > garage. They're partially discharged, and I would like
                  > to recharge them in the hopes of ganging them to
                  > produce the 24 volts needed by an 8" floppy drive. In
                  > the absence of a regulated 24 vdc supply...it's all
                  > I've got. I was wondering if I could utilize the wall
                  > wart that came with my portable jump starter (12 vdc @
                  > 500ma IIRC) to recharge these batteries.
                  > Also, you're not supposed to deep discharge a
                  > lead-acid battery the way you should a ni-cad (to
                  > prolong it's life) before recharging, are you?

                  No, you're not. For best life the thing to do is keep them charged. And not
                  take them down too far, the deeper the cycles you use the fewer of them
                  you'll get out of the battery before they're shot. A battery that's in a
                  discharged condition can get sulfated, which loses you plate area and
                  reduces its capacity.

                  What kind of batteries are they? Wet? Sealed gel cells? Something else?
                  That'll determine the safest charge rate. Gels are spec'd at the 20-hour
                  rate, meaning a 10AH gel will work best at a 500mA drain for 20 hours, and
                  you probably don't want to charge it any faster than that. Wet batteries can
                  give you more options.

                  As to whether the supply you have will work to charge these or not, that
                  depends on exactly what it puts out. A fully charged lead-acid battery will
                  sit at 12.6V. (Though right after charging you may see even a higher reading
                  due to "surface charge".) You want somewhere in the range of 13.5-14.5V,
                  with some form of current limiting in place there, depending on what the
                  battery can take.

                  Eight inch drives come a couple of different ways. In some cases the spindle
                  motor also needs 24V, while in others it's 115VAC. The former case will
                  need more of a power supply than the latter.

                  It's not all that hard to build a 24V supply, the last one I did was a
                  transformer, bridge, cap, and LM317 since I didn't have any 7824s handy at
                  that time (I have some now, though). Not that big a deal, really. And I
                  think you might still be able to get those transformers at radio shack...

                  --
                  Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
                  ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
                  be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
                  -
                  Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
                  M Dakin
                • Yvon
                  I have a bank of about 20 small SLA batteries on a solar panel and DC excersise bike mounter DC motor / generator through a 7 amp charge controler. I excersise
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 15 7:34 PM
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                    I have a bank of about 20 small SLA batteries on a solar panel and DC excersise bike mounter DC motor / generator through a 7 amp charge controler. I excersise in the evening so my bank gets an extra 35 -60 minutes extra when I feel like it. I hook the bank up to ann Inverter that charges my NIMH & NiCad batteries. Anyone know of an inexpensive desulfator kit I could purchase and build or even a simple circuit I could put together with component I may already have?
                    Thanks in advance for any input.

                    Yvon in Ottawa

                    "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason@...> wrote:
                    On Wednesday 15 February 2006 07:53 pm, Chris M wrote:
                    > I have 2 Exide 12v lead-acid batteries sitting in my
                    > garage. They're partially discharged, and I would like
                    > to recharge them in the hopes of ganging them to
                    > produce the 24 volts needed by an 8" floppy drive. In
                    > the absence of a regulated 24 vdc supply...it's all
                    > I've got. I was wondering if I could utilize the wall
                    > wart that came with my portable jump starter (12 vdc @
                    > 500ma IIRC) to recharge these batteries.
                    >  Also, you're not supposed to deep discharge a
                    > lead-acid battery the way you should a ni-cad (to
                    > prolong it's life) before recharging, are you?

                    No,  you're not.  For best life the thing to do is keep them charged.  And not
                    take them down too far,  the deeper the cycles you use the fewer of them
                    you'll get out of the battery before they're shot.  A battery that's in a
                    discharged condition can get sulfated,  which loses you plate area and
                    reduces its capacity.

                    What kind of batteries are they?  Wet?  Sealed gel cells?  Something else? 
                    That'll determine the safest charge rate.  Gels are spec'd at the 20-hour
                    rate,  meaning a 10AH gel will work best at a 500mA drain for 20 hours, and
                    you probably don't want to charge it any faster than that.  Wet batteries can
                    give you more options.

                    As to whether the supply you have will work to charge these or not,  that
                    depends on exactly what it puts out.  A fully charged lead-acid battery will
                    sit at 12.6V.  (Though right after charging you may see even a higher reading
                    due to "surface charge".)  You want somewhere in the range of 13.5-14.5V,
                    with some form of current limiting in place there,  depending on what the
                    battery can take.

                    Eight inch drives come a couple of different ways.  In some cases the spindle
                    motor also needs 24V,  while in others it's 115VAC.  The former case will
                    need more of a power supply than the latter.

                    It's not all that hard to build a 24V supply,  the last one I did was a
                    transformer,  bridge,  cap,  and LM317 since I didn't have any 7824s handy at
                    that time (I have some now,  though).  Not that big a deal,  really.  And I
                    think you might still be able to get those transformers at radio shack...

                    --
                    Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
                    ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
                    be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
                    -
                    Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
                    M Dakin



                    Find your next car at Yahoo! Canada Autos

                  • Chris M
                    so a disk drive doesnt require a switching supply? ... my ... like ... In ... all ... wall ... vdc @ ... keep them charged. And not ... use the fewer of them
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 15 7:38 PM
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                      so a disk drive doesnt require a switching supply?
                      --- Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com
                      <rtellason@...> wrote:
                      > On Wednesday 15 February 2006 07:53 pm, Chris M
                      wrote:
                      > > I have 2 Exide 12v lead-acid batteries sitting in
                      my
                      > > garage. They're partially discharged, and I would
                      like
                      > > to recharge them in the hopes of ganging them to
                      > > produce the 24 volts needed by an 8" floppy drive.
                      In
                      > > the absence of a regulated 24 vdc supply...it's
                      all
                      > > I've got. I was wondering if I could utilize the
                      wall
                      > > wart that came with my portable jump starter (12
                      vdc @
                      > > 500ma IIRC) to recharge these batteries.
                      > > Also, you're not supposed to deep discharge a
                      > > lead-acid battery the way you should a ni-cad (to
                      > > prolong it's life) before recharging, are you?
                      >
                      > No, you're not. For best life the thing to do is
                      keep them charged. And not
                      > take them down too far, the deeper the cycles you
                      use the fewer of them
                      > you'll get out of the battery before they're shot.
                      A battery that's in a
                      > discharged condition can get sulfated, which loses
                      you plate area and
                      > reduces its capacity.
                      >
                      > What kind of batteries are they? Wet? Sealed gel
                      cells? Something else?
                      > That'll determine the safest charge rate. Gels are
                      spec'd at the 20-hour
                      > rate, meaning a 10AH gel will work best at a 500mA
                      drain for 20 hours, and
                      > you probably don't want to charge it any faster than
                      that. Wet batteries can
                      > give you more options.
                      >
                      > As to whether the supply you have will work to
                      charge these or not, that
                      > depends on exactly what it puts out. A fully
                      charged lead-acid battery will
                      > sit at 12.6V. (Though right after charging you may
                      see even a higher reading
                      > due to "surface charge".) You want somewhere in the
                      range of 13.5-14.5V,
                      > with some form of current limiting in place there,
                      depending on what the
                      > battery can take.
                      >
                      > Eight inch drives come a couple of different ways.
                      In some cases the spindle
                      > motor also needs 24V, while in others it's 115VAC.
                      The former case will
                      > need more of a power supply than the latter.
                      >
                      > It's not all that hard to build a 24V supply, the
                      last one I did was a
                      > transformer, bridge, cap, and LM317 since I
                      didn't have any 7824s handy at
                      > that time (I have some now, though). Not that big
                      a deal, really. And I
                      > think you might still be able to get those
                      transformers at radio shack...
                      >
                      > --
                      > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most
                      unrelenting -- and
                      > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a
                      critter that can
                      > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein,
                      "The Puppet Masters"
                      > -
                      > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a
                      society ruled by lies. --James
                      > M Dakin
                      >


                      __________________________________________________
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                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                    • Roy J. Tellason
                      ... Sounds like gels, then. ... Got a part number? An AH rating? You ll probably want to limit the charging current, there, and you ll need more than 12V.
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 15 8:05 PM
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                        On Wednesday 15 February 2006 08:54 pm, Chris M wrote:
                        > don't have the datasheet. They're not auto batteries,
                        > storage I guess you could say (typical of alarms
                        > systems, ups').

                        Sounds like gels, then.

                        > Can I just plug in 12 v to recharge them?

                        Got a part number? An AH rating? You'll probably want to limit the charging
                        current, there, and you'll need more than 12V.

                        > --- rtstofer <rstofer@...> wrote:
                        > > --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Chris M
                        > >
                        > > <chrism3667@...> wrote:
                        > > > I have 2 Exide 12v lead-acid batteries sitting in
                        > >
                        > > my
                        > >
                        > > > garage. They're partially discharged, and I would
                        > >
                        > > like
                        > >
                        > > > to recharge them in the hopes of ganging them to
                        > > > produce the 24 volts needed by an 8" floppy drive.
                        > >
                        > > In
                        > >
                        > > > the absence of a regulated 24 vdc supply...it's
                        > >
                        > > all
                        > >
                        > > > I've got. I was wondering if I could utilize the
                        > >
                        > > wall
                        > >
                        > > > wart that came with my portable jump starter (12
                        > >
                        > > vdc @
                        > >
                        > > > 500ma IIRC) to recharge these batteries.
                        > > > Also, you're not supposed to deep discharge a
                        > > > lead-acid battery the way you should a ni-cad (to
                        > > > prolong it's life) before recharging, are you?
                        > >
                        > > If they are automotive starting batteries, you
                        > > aren't supposed to
                        > > discharge them at all. If they are storage
                        > > batteries then you can
                        > > discharge them in accordance with the manufactuer's
                        > > datasheet.
                        > >
                        > > Richard
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
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                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                        >
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                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
                        ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
                        be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
                        -
                        Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
                        M Dakin
                      • Roy J. Tellason
                        ... If you do a search on desulfator you ll end up at a fairly small number of sites that deal with those. Most popular circuit seems to be a pulse
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 15 8:07 PM
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                          On Wednesday 15 February 2006 10:34 pm, Yvon wrote:
                          > I have a bank of about 20 small SLA batteries on a solar panel and DC
                          > excersise bike mounter DC motor / generator through a 7 amp charge
                          > controler. I excersise in the evening so my bank gets an extra 35 -60
                          > minutes extra when I feel like it. I hook the bank up to ann Inverter that
                          > charges my NIMH & NiCad batteries. Anyone know of an inexpensive desulfator
                          > kit I could purchase and build or even a simple circuit I could put
                          > together with component I may already have? Thanks in advance for any
                          > input.
                          >
                          > Yvon in Ottawa

                          If you do a search on "desulfator" you'll end up at a fairly small number of
                          sites that deal with those. Most popular circuit seems to be a pulse
                          generator with a couple of coils. I have no idea how well these work,
                          though, haven't built one...

                          > "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > On Wednesday 15 February 2006 07:53 pm, Chris M wrote:
                          > > I have 2 Exide 12v lead-acid batteries sitting in my
                          > > garage. They're partially discharged, and I would like
                          > > to recharge them in the hopes of ganging them to
                          > > produce the 24 volts needed by an 8" floppy drive. In
                          > > the absence of a regulated 24 vdc supply...it's all
                          > > I've got. I was wondering if I could utilize the wall
                          > > wart that came with my portable jump starter (12 vdc @
                          > > 500ma IIRC) to recharge these batteries.
                          > > Also, you're not supposed to deep discharge a
                          > > lead-acid battery the way you should a ni-cad (to
                          > > prolong it's life) before recharging, are you?
                          >
                          > No, you're not. For best life the thing to do is keep them charged. And
                          > not take them down too far, the deeper the cycles you use the fewer of
                          > them you'll get out of the battery before they're shot. A battery that's
                          > in a discharged condition can get sulfated, which loses you plate area and
                          > reduces its capacity.
                          >
                          > What kind of batteries are they? Wet? Sealed gel cells? Something else?
                          > That'll determine the safest charge rate. Gels are spec'd at the 20-hour
                          > rate, meaning a 10AH gel will work best at a 500mA drain for 20 hours, and
                          > you probably don't want to charge it any faster than that. Wet batteries
                          > can give you more options.
                          >
                          > As to whether the supply you have will work to charge these or not, that
                          > depends on exactly what it puts out. A fully charged lead-acid battery
                          > will sit at 12.6V. (Though right after charging you may see even a higher
                          > reading due to "surface charge".) You want somewhere in the range of
                          > 13.5-14.5V, with some form of current limiting in place there, depending
                          > on what the battery can take.
                          >
                          > Eight inch drives come a couple of different ways. In some cases the
                          > spindle motor also needs 24V, while in others it's 115VAC. The former
                          > case will need more of a power supply than the latter.
                          >
                          > It's not all that hard to build a 24V supply, the last one I did was a
                          > transformer, bridge, cap, and LM317 since I didn't have any 7824s handy
                          > at that time (I have some now, though). Not that big a deal, really.
                          > And I think you might still be able to get those transformers at radio
                          > shack...

                          --
                          Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
                          ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
                          be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
                          -
                          Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
                          M Dakin
                        • Roy J. Tellason
                          ... Please trim your replies, there s no reason to leave almost 150 lines of quoted material for a one-line reply. No, there s no requirement for a
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 15 8:09 PM
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                            On Wednesday 15 February 2006 10:38 pm, Chris M wrote:
                            > so a disk drive doesnt require a switching supply?

                            Please trim your replies, there's no reason to leave almost 150 lines of
                            quoted material for a one-line reply.

                            No, there's no "requirement" for a switcher for anything, except for
                            efficiency considerations, size, weight, stuff like that.

                            --
                            Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
                            ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
                            be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
                            -
                            Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
                            M Dakin
                          • fnatmed
                            ... DC excersise bike mounter DC motor / generator through a 7 amp charge controler. I excersise in the evening so my bank gets an extra 35 -60 minutes extra
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 16 9:29 AM
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                              --- In Electronics_101@yahoogroups.com, Yvon <itcprof@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I have a bank of about 20 small SLA batteries on a solar panel and
                              DC excersise bike mounter DC motor / generator through a 7 amp charge
                              controler. I excersise in the evening so my bank gets an extra 35 -60
                              minutes extra when I feel like it. I hook the bank up to ann Inverter
                              that charges my NIMH & NiCad batteries. Anyone know of an inexpensive
                              desulfator kit I could purchase and build or even a simple circuit I
                              could put together with component I may already have?
                              > Thanks in advance for any input.

                              Culled from the net many moons ago.

                              http://rapidshare.de/files/13409974/BatteryDesulfator.rar.html

                              Silicon Chip magazine did one in their July 2005 issue.

                              Also check these out ...

                              http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf
                              http://p198.ezboard.com/fleadacidbatterydesulfationfrm11.showMessage?topicID=14.topic
                              http://p198.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation

                              Dean.
                            • Roy J. Tellason
                              ... The first couple of these look familiar, the first one in particular probably being the site I was thinking of, having bumped into it before... Got a
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 17 8:40 AM
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                                On Thursday 16 February 2006 12:29 pm, fnatmed wrote:
                                > Also check these out ...
                                >
                                > http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf
                                > http://p198.ezboard.com/fleadacidbatterydesulfationfrm11.showMessage?topicI
                                >D=14.topic http://p198.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation

                                The first couple of these look familiar, the first one in particular probably
                                being the site I was thinking of, having bumped into it before...

                                Got a couple of group 27 deep cycle batteries here that I'm working on, this
                                should be interesting, to see what I can do with them, since they've been
                                so sadly neglected.

                                --
                                Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
                                ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
                                be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
                                -
                                Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
                                M Dakin
                              • Stefan Trethan
                                On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 17:40:10 +0100, Roy J. Tellason ... So, you think this is real world effective not only some wishful thinking mumbo jumbo? If it is real, i
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 17 9:38 AM
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                                  On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 17:40:10 +0100, Roy J. Tellason
                                  <rtellason@...> wrote:

                                  > The first couple of these look familiar, the first one in particular
                                  > probably
                                  >
                                  > being the site I was thinking of, having bumped into it before...
                                  >

                                  So, you think this is real world effective not only some wishful thinking
                                  mumbo jumbo?
                                  If it is real, i would have use for it i guess.


                                  > Got a couple of group 27 deep cycle batteries here that I'm working on,
                                  > this

                                  There you go again, the americans insatiable need to designate meaningless
                                  numbers to things. When will you guys stop using groups, forms, types,
                                  sizes, numbers, gauges and the like? What on earth is a group 27 battery,
                                  in average human readable language please? ;-)

                                  > should be interesting, to see what I can do with them, since they've
                                  > been
                                  > so sadly neglected.

                                  Yes, i would be most interested if you find pulsing does any good.
                                  I think one must be careful to ensure it wasn't simple the
                                  charging/discharging that helped them, and not the pulser.
                                  I'm always a bit suspicious of such "magic circuits" that do something
                                  invisible.
                                  It's too much like those magnets or coils you put around water pipes, or
                                  fuel lines or ....


                                  ST
                                • rtstofer
                                  ... meaningless ... types, ... battery, ... How would you propose to differentiate among the thousands of battery sizes such as AAA, A, B, C, D...Group 27?
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 17 9:49 AM
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                                    > There you go again, the americans insatiable need to designate
                                    meaningless
                                    > numbers to things. When will you guys stop using groups, forms,
                                    types,
                                    > sizes, numbers, gauges and the like? What on earth is a group 27
                                    battery,
                                    > in average human readable language please? ;-)

                                    How would you propose to differentiate among the thousands of battery
                                    sizes such as AAA, A, B, C, D...Group 27? The dimensions of a Group
                                    27 battery are at the bottom of this page:
                                    http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/battery.shtml It is a physical
                                    case size - not necessarily related to AH capacity.

                                    I suppose you would rather assign a DIN number? Or maybe turn it over
                                    to ISO?

                                    Richard
                                  • Roy J. Tellason
                                    ... I didn t say that. :-) ... All I know is what I ve seen on some of those sites. Having some batteries around that need some help, I may give it a shot,
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 17 10:01 AM
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                                      On Friday 17 February 2006 12:38 pm, Stefan Trethan wrote:
                                      > On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 17:40:10 +0100, Roy J. Tellason
                                      >
                                      > <rtellason@...> wrote:
                                      > > The first couple of these look familiar, the first one in particular
                                      > > probably being the site I was thinking of, having bumped into it
                                      > > before...
                                      >
                                      > So, you think this is real world effective not only some wishful thinking
                                      > mumbo jumbo?

                                      I didn't say that. :-)

                                      > If it is real, i would have use for it i guess.

                                      All I know is what I've seen on some of those sites. Having some batteries
                                      around that need some help, I may give it a shot, if I can find a few of
                                      the appropriate inductors, always the bane of my existence. :-)

                                      If they won't take much of a charge, and are otherwise dead, what have I got
                                      to lose except for some time?

                                      > > Got a couple of group 27 deep cycle batteries here that I'm working on,
                                      > > this
                                      >
                                      > There you go again, the americans insatiable need to designate meaningless
                                      > numbers to things. When will you guys stop using groups, forms, types,
                                      > sizes, numbers, gauges and the like? What on earth is a group 27 battery,
                                      > in average human readable language please? ;-)

                                      Look on google or someplace for "Battery Council International" (I emphasize
                                      that last word, BTW.) They're pretty standard across _all_ automotive
                                      applications, for vehicles made in _all_ countries, though of course
                                      certain makes favor some styles over others, GM being particularly fond of
                                      side-terminal batteries for example.

                                      The units are "Exide NG-27", if you'd care to look that up. About 58 lbs of
                                      lead in each box...

                                      > > should be interesting, to see what I can do with them, since they've
                                      > > been so sadly neglected.
                                      >
                                      > Yes, i would be most interested if you find pulsing does any good.

                                      Well, at the moment I'm just trying to charge one of them. I'd worked on the
                                      other one before, and it didn't do too well, but this one had a charger
                                      hooked up for some time now, over a week for sure, and it's only in the
                                      past day or two that I'm starting to see some indication on the meter at all.
                                      The charger is an "automatic" one that's supposed to taper off as voltage
                                      rises, and it has a switch with "10A" and "2A" positions, though those
                                      numbers are no kind of absolute limit -- currently it's in the 2A position
                                      and the battery under charge is pulling about 3-4A or so.

                                      I'm seeing some bubbling activity in some of the cells, but not all of them.

                                      What concerns me is that I will get them up to some sort of full charge but
                                      that there will be so much sulfation in there that I won't get any
                                      appreciable power out of them, and that'd be a heck of a waste considering
                                      the bulk and weight of these units.

                                      I also have a bunch of gels that I should probably deal with, too, get them
                                      topped off, so they stay in good condition.

                                      > I think one must be careful to ensure it wasn't simple the
                                      > charging/discharging that helped them, and not the pulser.

                                      Discharging doesn't do lead-acid batteries any good. And aside from small
                                      mentions on the pages referenced there hasn't been much that I've run across
                                      about pulse charging.

                                      > I'm always a bit suspicious of such "magic circuits" that do something
                                      > invisible. It's too much like those magnets or coils you put around water
                                      > pipes, or fuel lines or ....

                                      Yes.

                                      I wouldn't want to spend much money if any on such a thing, but if I can
                                      scrounge the parts to build one I might give it a shot some time.

                                      There's a (relatively) local idiot that runs all these commercials on both
                                      radio and TV and I get *really* sick of hearing his voice, with a gizmo that
                                      he sells that's supposed to deal with hard water, and from what I can see
                                      just consists of a coil wrapped around a pipe... And people must be buying
                                      into it because he's still around, has been for some years now. Idiots.

                                      Have you looked at those desulfator sites? The emphasis there seems to be on
                                      homebrew, and not so much on people selling you stuff, though there is some
                                      of that, too.

                                      --
                                      Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
                                      ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
                                      be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
                                      -
                                      Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
                                      M Dakin
                                    • Stefan Trethan
                                      On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 19:01:17 +0100, Roy J. Tellason ... I had that once, and the voltage was low overall. Turend out one cell was bad/shorted. You can
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 17 10:48 AM
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                                        On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 19:01:17 +0100, Roy J. Tellason
                                        <rtellason@...> wrote:

                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I'm seeing some bubbling activity in some of the cells, but not all of
                                        > them.


                                        I had that once, and the voltage was low overall. Turend out one cell was
                                        bad/shorted.
                                        You can carefully probe onto the interconnects in some batteries via the
                                        caps to check individual cells.

                                        ST
                                      • Roy J. Tellason
                                        ... Yeah, but that usually happens when a battery is used enough so that plate material flaking off bridges the gap between plates -- and the space at the
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Feb 17 12:27 PM
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                                          On Friday 17 February 2006 01:48 pm, Stefan Trethan wrote:
                                          > On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 19:01:17 +0100, Roy J. Tellason
                                          > <rtellason@...> wrote:
                                          > > I'm seeing some bubbling activity in some of the cells, but not all of
                                          > > them.
                                          >
                                          > I had that once, and the voltage was low overall. Turend out one cell was
                                          > bad/shorted.

                                          Yeah, but that usually happens when a battery is used enough so that plate
                                          material flaking off bridges the gap between plates -- and the space at the
                                          bottom of most commercial batteries is supposed to make this a whole lot less
                                          likely. Or if a plate actualy breaks in such a way as to cause a short.

                                          These batteries were not used, they were fully charged, and then stored
                                          away, and as it turned out not maintained properly.

                                          I wasn't seeing any activity at all in _any_ cells for quite a while, it
                                          looks like some of them "woke up" first. I'm seeing activity in more of them
                                          than I had been before, so I guess we'll just wait and see how it goes.
                                          Maybe switch it to a lighter-weight charger (I have a 1A charger here as well
                                          as a bunch of others).

                                          > You can carefully probe onto the interconnects in some batteries via the
                                          > caps to check individual cells.

                                          That's pretty rare on a lot of what's out there any more. The real early
                                          stuff had the interconnects going across the top, but having them go through
                                          the partitions is a lot shorter path, and allows for more power to be pulled
                                          from any given battery configuration. The other problem that I see much more
                                          often these days is a bad connection at one of those points, which heats up
                                          when you try and pull power, giving "a boiler" -- one cell (or sometimes a
                                          pair of adjacent cells) that bubble like crazy under serious load. Or
                                          sometimes a battery will show good voltage but it'll drop way down under the
                                          slightest load, like a dome light -- that's a *real* bad connection. More
                                          often than not that was the common failure mode when I was in the business.

                                          I did see a gizmo at this one garage that was supposed to be able to be
                                          inserted into a battery through one of the filler holes that had a pair of
                                          some sort of electrodes and which would supposedly tell you the condition of
                                          that cell. It didn't look like the guy used it much, though, so I can't
                                          offer any comments about how well it might have worked, or not.

                                          --
                                          Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
                                          ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
                                          be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
                                          -
                                          Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
                                          M Dakin
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