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Re: No wonder Harold did a lot of editing!

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  • mishmisha9
    Hi, Leigh! The word confusing is the key to keeping eckists in the org. Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the confusion. The confusion
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 16, 2005
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      Hi, Leigh!

      The word "confusing" is the key to keeping eckists in the org.
      Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the
      confusion. The confusion is justified and deemed okay because it is
      just part of the teachings. When the chela advances, he will
      understand better. Yada, yada! The confusion is just an indication
      that the chela has not advanced enough to "know." So, this validates
      the quite "normal" confusion which in turn makes the chela feel that
      all is right with the teachings in eckankar. The confusion helps to
      control those who question. As to Twitchell's books disappearing,
      well, truly eckists should wonder why they are not available now. It
      would seem that Twitchell's total writings would be of great
      interest and important to the present day teachings in eckankar.
      Certainly something is "rotten in Denmark!"

      Mish

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
      <lgrif@m...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > And,why still use "Stranger by the River" and other books by PT?
      >
      >
      > Hi Prometheus:
      > It's not just this... why still publish books
      written by
      > people who've left Eckankar or who've been asked to leave (as in
      the
      > case of Patti Simpson)? Whether you consided this practice
      disingenuous
      > or worse it's certainly confusing, and should be questionable
      for
      > that reason alone.
      >
      > Leigh
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Mish, It does seem strange that the founder of Eckankar (and modern day prophet/savior), Paul Twitchell, doesn t have all of his books available for sale
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 16, 2005
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        Hi Mish,

        It does seem strange that the founder of Eckankar (and modern day
        prophet/savior), Paul Twitchell, doesn't have all of his books
        available for sale from the religion that he created! Paul must be
        spinnibg in his grave, or was he cremated? How disappointed he must
        be in little Harry Klemp! All of that Eck donation money for guilted
        staircases and such, but none left to reprint the historical
        beginnings and wisdom of such an advanced spiritual path! <sigh>

        What could be the reasons for Not offering these books? Is it true
        that some of the Paul's early writings might Not "fit" perfectly
        with today's consciousness? But wouldn't Christians want to read
        every word that Jesus had spoken?! Then again, maybe some Christian
        leaders wouldn't want every thought and word of Jesus's shared with
        the world. What would these leaders fear? That the wisdom wouldn't
        apply to the modern world or that people would just be confused by
        unfiltered and unedited wisdom. Maybe the thought would be, Why
        create more confusion for people? Maybe little Harry is thinking,
        Why create more confusion for Eckists? Actually, Klemp is saving
        Eckists from the truth about Twitchell, and the scam of Eckankar.
        For Eckists, ignorance really is bliss! Besides, little Harry would
        be out of a high paying job with great perks if Eckists figured it
        all out too soon!

        Prometheus



        mishmisha wrote:

        The word "confusing" is the key to keeping eckists in the org.
        Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the
        confusion. The confusion is justified and deemed okay because it is
        just part of the teachings. When the chela advances, he will
        understand better. Yada, yada! The confusion is just an indication
        that the chela has not advanced enough to "know." So, this validates
        the quite "normal" confusion which in turn makes the chela feel that
        all is right with the teachings in eckankar. The confusion helps to
        control those who question. As to Twitchell's books disappearing,
        well, truly eckists should wonder why they are not available now. It
        would seem that Twitchell's total writings would be of great
        interest and important to the present day teachings in eckankar.
        Certainly something is "rotten in Denmark!"

        Mish
      • ctecvie
        Hello Prometheus, ... *** Little Harry wanted the temple to last till eternity - so maybe he thought some gold couldn t hurt! Perhaps he wanted to set a
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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          Hello Prometheus,

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Mish,
          >
          > It does seem strange that the founder of Eckankar (and modern day
          > prophet/savior), Paul Twitchell, doesn't have all of his books
          > available for sale from the religion that he created! Paul must be
          > spinnibg in his grave, or was he cremated? How disappointed he
          >must
          > be in little Harry Klemp! All of that Eck donation money for
          >guilted
          > staircases and such, but none left to reprint the historical
          > beginnings and wisdom of such an advanced spiritual path! <sigh>

          *** Little Harry wanted the temple to last till eternity - so maybe
          he thought some gold couldn't hurt! Perhaps he wanted to set a
          monument for himself, in stone, marble, gold and the like! This is
          better as books because books can get lost quite easily -
          discontinue them, burn them, discredit them ... whatever.

          >
          > What could be the reasons for Not offering these books? Is it true
          > that some of the Paul's early writings might Not "fit" perfectly
          > with today's consciousness? But wouldn't Christians want to read
          > every word that Jesus had spoken?! Then again, maybe some
          >Christian
          > leaders wouldn't want every thought and word of Jesus's shared
          >with
          > the world. What would these leaders fear? That the wisdom wouldn't
          > apply to the modern world or that people would just be confused by
          > unfiltered and unedited wisdom. Maybe the thought would be, Why
          > create more confusion for people? Maybe little Harry is thinking,
          > Why create more confusion for Eckists? Actually, Klemp is saving
          > Eckists from the truth about Twitchell, and the scam of Eckankar.
          > For Eckists, ignorance really is bliss! Besides, little Harry
          >would
          > be out of a high paying job with great perks if Eckists figured it
          > all out too soon!

          Yeah - I think PT said things that would not be consistent with the
          course Eckankar is steering today - and this could be embarrassing
          for the leaders (by the way is it Little Harry Himself or rather
          Peter Skelskey who is steering the Eckankar boat?). And imagine how
          embarrassing it would be if suddenly the original version
          of "Letters to Gail" came up! LOL!

          Ingrid
        • l2eigh
          Hi Mish: Oh, I certainly agree that confusing and confusion make up the heart of Eckankar. The dangerous thing is to settle down (accept this), to become
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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            Hi Mish:
            Oh, I certainly agree that "confusing" and "confusion" make
            up the heart of Eckankar. The dangerous thing is to "settle down"
            (accept this), to become peaceful and content, carrying this nest of
            emptines and meaninglessness inside you.
            Incidentally, happy holidays to you and everyone on this
            list.

            Leigh



            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
            <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi, Leigh!
            >
            > The word "confusing" is the key to keeping eckists in the org.
            > Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the
            > confusion. The confusion is justified and deemed okay because it
            is
            > just part of the teachings. When the chela advances, he will
            > understand better. Yada, yada! The confusion is just an indication
            > that the chela has not advanced enough to "know." So, this
            validates
            > the quite "normal" confusion which in turn makes the chela feel
            that
            > all is right with the teachings in eckankar. The confusion helps
            to
            > control those who question. As to Twitchell's books disappearing,
            > well, truly eckists should wonder why they are not available now.
            It
            > would seem that Twitchell's total writings would be of great
            > interest and important to the present day teachings in eckankar.
            > Certainly something is "rotten in Denmark!"
            >
            > Mish
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Ingrid and All, It seems Klemp can do and say anything without having it questioned by Eckists. But, that s what has always made Eckankar a cult! Klemp
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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              Hi Ingrid and All,
              It seems Klemp can do and say anything without having it questioned
              by Eckists. But, that's what has always made Eckankar a cult! Klemp
              eliminates and edits Twitchell's original material while only
              sharing shallow, common place, embellished, or contradicting
              accounts of perceived "spiritual" wisdom.

              In Klemp's 2005 EWWS talk he states, "Enthusiasm is infectious.
              People respond. Missionary work is fun." Yet this is from a person
              who has been employed by Eckankar for 35 years! It's been part of
              his paid job to do missionary work. So once again... talk is a cheap
              commodity for Little Harry. Besides, aren't Eckists supposed to be
              neither for or against anything? Does "enthusiasm" depict detachment
              or contentment? Or, do Eckists just demonstrate or act "as if" they
              have enthusiasm, as well as, love in their hearts?!

              It's funny that Klemp found out that some people at the local Unity
              Church referred to him as "Big" Harry, and he in turn flipped that
              to compare himself to the mythological coal mining hero of "Big"
              John. But I see him more as the mythological thief of "Little" John
              who helped Robin Hood to rob the rich and give to the poor. Instead,
              however, the irony is that Klemp is not a physically large or strong
              man as Little John was, and that Klemp steals from the poor Eckists
              to make himself rich! Therefore, I have thus crowned Shree Klemp as
              Little Harry!



              Ingrid wrote:

              Hello Prometheus,

              Prometheus wrote:
              It does seem strange that the founder of Eckankar (and modern day
              prophet/savior), Paul Twitchell, doesn't have all of his books
              available for sale from the religion that he created! Paul must be
              spinnibg in his grave, or was he cremated? How disappointed he must
              be in little Harry Klemp! All of that Eck donation money for guilted
              staircases and such, but none left to reprint the historical
              beginnings and wisdom of such an advanced spiritual path! <sigh>

              Ingrid: Little Harry wanted the temple to last till eternity - so
              maybe he thought some gold couldn't hurt! Perhaps he wanted to set a
              monument for himself, in stone, marble, gold and the like! This is
              better as books because books can get lost quite easily -
              discontinue them, burn them, discredit them ... whatever.



              *****I think your're correct! Klemp built a monument to himself! How
              could any future LEM/Mahanta deny, edit, or delete this? Hmmmmm.
              Actually, in time Klemp's material, reputation, and works could be
              seen in its true light and easily be reduced to nothing of substance.




              Prometheus: What could be the reasons for Not offering these books?
              Is it true that some of the Paul's early writings might Not "fit"
              perfectly with today's consciousness? But wouldn't Christians want
              to read every word that Jesus had spoken?! Then again, maybe some
              Christian leaders wouldn't want every thought and word of Jesus's
              shared with the world. What would these leaders fear? That the
              wisdom wouldn't apply to the modern world or that people would just
              be confused by unfiltered and unedited wisdom. Maybe the thought
              would be, Why create more confusion for people? Maybe little Harry
              is thinking, Why create more confusion for Eckists? Actually, Klemp
              is saving Eckists from the truth about Twitchell, and the scam of
              Eckankar. For Eckists, ignorance really is bliss! Besides, little
              Harry would be out of a high paying job with great perks if Eckists
              figured it all out too soon!

              Ingrid: Yeah - I think PT said things that would not be consistent
              with the course Eckankar is steering today - and this could be
              embarrassing for the leaders (by the way is it Little Harry Himself
              or rather Peter Skelskey who is steering the Eckankar boat?). And
              imagine how embarrassing it would be if suddenly the original
              version of "Letters to Gail" came up! LOL!


              *****It could be that Joan is doing more steering than Peter! Peter
              is just waiting in the wings and being a yes man and lap dog for
              now. The question for Little Harry and Joan is, Who can be trusted
              Not to do to Klemp that Klemp did to Gross?!

              Prometheus
            • mishmisha9
              Hi, Leigh! Proof of this confusion is readily seen in the posts by eckists on the non-official eck chat sites--if you care to check out Chela Chat and Hu Chat.
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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                Hi, Leigh!

                Proof of this confusion is readily seen in the posts by eckists on
                the non-official eck chat sites--if you care to check out Chela Chat
                and Hu Chat. They seem to have a problem agreeing about what is
                meant in the teachings! As for karma, eckists, instead of getting
                rid of it, seem to rope more and more of it in, because they feel
                they have to deal with certain situations/relationships instead of
                saying "I pass." LOL! Many struggle hanging in unhealthy
                relationships because they are looking for the higher meaning of it
                all--and try to make something work that is too badly broken to
                begin with. I believe that eckists are taught to be delusional more
                than any other thing and this is what they are "learning from the
                teachings!" LOL! Too bad they won't read Ford Johnson's
                book "Confessions of a God Seeker" so that a light bulb might be
                turned on in their muddled minds. It's really sad. This also applies
                to those former eckists who continue to cling to the "truths" they
                learned in eckankar--they still want to believe that they evolved
                because of those special eck teachings! The truth is (IMO) that they
                will not evolve until they let go of this delusional eck thinking--
                and until they accept the fact they were duped by the
                false/deceptive teachings in eckankar, these individuals will also
                continue to operate in a delusional state of consciousness
                and remain stuck, much like the eckists who remain trapped in
                eckankar right now.

                Happy Holidays to you too, and of course to everyone else who
                participates by posting and/or reading here!

                Mish

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Mish:
                > Oh, I certainly agree that "confusing" and "confusion"
                make
                > up the heart of Eckankar. The dangerous thing is to "settle down"
                > (accept this), to become peaceful and content, carrying this nest
                of
                > emptines and meaninglessness inside you.
                > Incidentally, happy holidays to you and everyone on this
                > list.
                >
                > Leigh
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi, Leigh!
                > >
                > > The word "confusing" is the key to keeping eckists in the org.
                > > Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the
                > > confusion. The confusion is justified and deemed okay because it
                > is
                > > just part of the teachings. When the chela advances, he will
                > > understand better. Yada, yada! The confusion is just an
                indication
                > > that the chela has not advanced enough to "know." So, this
                > validates
                > > the quite "normal" confusion which in turn makes the chela feel
                > that
                > > all is right with the teachings in eckankar. The confusion helps
                > to
                > > control those who question. As to Twitchell's books
                disappearing,
                > > well, truly eckists should wonder why they are not available
                now.
                > It
                > > would seem that Twitchell's total writings would be of great
                > > interest and important to the present day teachings in eckankar.
                > > Certainly something is "rotten in Denmark!"
                > >
                > > Mish
                >
              • ctecvie
                Hello Mish, ... *** Today, we met an eckist who has brought quite some members to Eckankar. He is confused, too, because he has been a member for 24 years now
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 18, 2005
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                  Hello Mish,

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                  <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi, Leigh!
                  >
                  > Proof of this confusion is readily seen in the posts by eckists on
                  > the non-official eck chat sites--if you care to check out Chela
                  >Chat
                  > and Hu Chat.

                  *** Today, we met an eckist who has brought quite some members to
                  Eckankar. He is confused, too, because he has been a member for 24
                  years now and really has done more than his share - but still no 5th
                  initiation. The thing is that he isn't very complying to the
                  guidelines, has never sent in any initiation reports and such. He
                  knows that he doesn't fit and that this is why. He was excluded from
                  vahana work by the resas. He said that some months ago, he had seen
                  that a postering workshop was planned and asked himself why he was
                  not asked because that was what he had been doing for 20 years or
                  so. Well, he is still very much into the "higher/lower/master"
                  stuff, but we have given him the website address for background
                  information about Eckankar.

                  > They seem to have a problem agreeing about what is
                  > meant in the teachings! As for karma, eckists, instead of getting
                  > rid of it, seem to rope more and more of it in, because they feel
                  > they have to deal with certain situations/relationships instead of
                  > saying "I pass." LOL! Many struggle hanging in unhealthy
                  > relationships because they are looking for the higher meaning of
                  >it
                  > all--and try to make something work that is too badly broken to
                  > begin with.

                  *** That's the point - they think that they are resolving karma but
                  instead are staying in unhealthy situations because they think it
                  has to be that way. The power we have is to decide whether we want
                  to stay or leave to look for other, better circumstances to learn
                  what we have to learn. Of course we "run away" - but I firmly
                  believe that this "running away" is very often very helpful. For me
                  anyway, as this enabled me to eventually see that what I ran from
                  was in fact the same problem every time. Had I stayed where I was, I
                  never would have been able to realize this.

                  >I believe that eckists are taught to be delusional more
                  > than any other thing and this is what they are "learning from the
                  > teachings!" LOL! Too bad they won't read Ford Johnson's
                  > book "Confessions of a God Seeker" so that a light bulb might be
                  > turned on in their muddled minds. It's really sad.

                  *** The Eckist I spoke of wanted to know in one sentence what Ford's
                  book was all about. No way to tell him in one sentence! It's even
                  not possible to describe Eckankar in one sentence. I finally broke
                  it down to "I can have all the love and protection I need without
                  the mahanta".

                  >This also applies
                  > to those former eckists who continue to cling to the "truths" they
                  > learned in eckankar--they still want to believe that they evolved
                  > because of those special eck teachings! The truth is (IMO) that
                  >they
                  > will not evolve until they let go of this delusional eck thinking--
                  > and until they accept the fact they were duped by the
                  > false/deceptive teachings in eckankar, these individuals will also
                  > continue to operate in a delusional state of consciousness
                  > and remain stuck, much like the eckists who remain trapped in
                  > eckankar right now.

                  ***They are still stuck in that higher/lower thinking. Just as this
                  Eckist said that a certain tincture he is making comes from
                  the "highest and purest" source. I told him that it was highest and
                  purest because his heart was in it. So weird, at least for me, to
                  think that there is a "highest" out there whereas we can find it in
                  our own heart if we are pure and honest!
                  >
                  > Happy Holidays to you too, and of course to everyone else who
                  > participates by posting and/or reading here!

                  *** Happy Holidays to all, too!
                  Ingrid
                • prometheus_973
                  Hi Mish, The problem that many Eckists have, with reading Ford s book Confessions, is that they are fearful of the book and believe that words which
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 18, 2005
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                    Hi Mish,

                    The problem that many Eckists have, with reading Ford's
                    book "Confessions," is that they are fearful of the book and believe
                    that words which criticize Eckankar are negative. Therefore, why
                    would someone, an Eckist, that is so pure, positive, and spiritual
                    <smile> want to expose theirself to negativity? They forget,
                    however, that negativity surrounds them and all of us, and that one
                    should not deny it exists. Negativity (conflict) is a means to
                    personal and spiritual growth... is it not?

                    Many current Eckists who have "read" Confessions of a God Seeker
                    actually did a speed read because of their fear. They feared that
                    doubt would enter their minds and that Eckankar would not be able to
                    withstand the scruntiny of truth which they have denied seeing and
                    questioning over the years. Therefore, these Eckists (and some
                    former Eckists) did a "Paul Twitchell" and skimmed Confessions, but
                    did so with a closed or semi-closed mind. People, in general, are
                    fearful of change and of having comfortable delusions and
                    rationalizations shattered. Eckankar, and religion in general, is
                    like having your own private and indestructible "spiritual" security
                    blanket. Yours keeps you safe, it's always better than the next
                    person's, you are always farther along with a personal relationship
                    with the Inner (Whatever), or can see from a higher perspective...
                    right?! This is simply how our minds (and egos) work and there are
                    those who take advantage of this.

                    Paul Twitchell was not unique when we look at history. There are
                    thousands and thousands of con men and women doing their own unique
                    scam at any given moment! This has always been the case! Some of
                    these people even have good intentions, at times, but what they sell
                    is what they can see we all want and need. Is it any wonder that
                    both financial and spiritual security (peace of mind) is such big
                    business!

                    Happy Holidays Everyone!

                    Prometheus




                    mishmisha wrote:
                    Hi Leigh,
                    Proof of this confusion is readily seen in the posts by eckists on
                    the non-official eck chat sites--if you care to check out Chela Chat
                    and Hu Chat. They seem to have a problem agreeing about what is
                    meant in the teachings! As for karma, eckists, instead of getting
                    rid of it, seem to rope more and more of it in, because they feel
                    they have to deal with certain situations/relationships instead of
                    saying "I pass." LOL!

                    Many struggle hanging in unhealthy relationships because they are
                    looking for the higher meaning of it all--and try to make something
                    work that is too badly broken to begin with. I believe that eckists
                    are taught to be delusional more than any other thing and this is
                    what they are "learning from the teachings!" LOL!

                    Too bad they won't read Ford Johnson's book "Confessions of a God
                    Seeker" so that a light bulb might be turned on in their muddled
                    minds. It's really sad. This also applies to those former eckists
                    who continue to cling to the "truths" they learned in eckankar--they
                    still want to believe that they evolved because of those special eck
                    teachings!

                    The truth is (IMO) that they will not evolve until they let go of
                    this delusional eck thinking--and until they accept the fact they
                    were duped by the false/deceptive teachings in eckankar, these
                    individuals will also continue to operate in a delusional state of
                    consciousness and remain stuck, much like the eckists who remain
                    trapped in eckankar right now.

                    Happy Holidays to you too, and of course to everyone else who
                    participates by posting and/or reading here!

                    Mish
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Ingrid, It seems that this Eckist doesn t understand his place in the hierarchy. Under the RESA structure one must be a team member and follow the rules
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 18, 2005
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                      Hi Ingrid,
                      It seems that this Eckist doesn't understand his place in the
                      hierarchy. Under the RESA structure one must be a team member and
                      follow the rules (spoken and unspoken), know the Mahanta's mission,
                      but especially comply with the written guidelines. Does he know
                      there are even guidelines for postering? I was quite an enthusiastic
                      vahana at one time, but eventually mellowed when I continuously saw
                      the overwhelming flaws. How could such flaws exist in H.I. chelas
                      and the Eckankar org if this was the highest spiritual path in all
                      of the universes of Sugmad?! This was very confusing, didn't make
                      sense, and caused me a lot of conflict! This chela (a 4th?) will
                      never be trusted with a higher initiation if he cannot work within
                      or understand the RESA structure. The standards are much stricter
                      for today's Eckists than in the past. However, this is the big
                      problem with Eckankar... all of those old timer H.I.s that reject
                      the Guidelines! I don't blame them! Eckankar has become very
                      controlling, narrow of focus, and a top heavy business (religion)!
                      And, that glass ceiling of initiation (the 7th) is starting to show
                      more cracks! LOL!

                      Prometheus


                      Ingrid wrote:

                      Today, we met an eckist who has brought quite some members to
                      Eckankar. He is confused, too, because he has been a member for 24
                      years now and really has done more than his share - but still no 5th
                      initiation. The thing is that he isn't very complying to the
                      guidelines, has never sent in any initiation reports and such. He
                      knows that he doesn't fit and that this is why. He was excluded from
                      vahana work by the resas. He said that some months ago, he had seen
                      that a postering workshop was planned and asked himself why he was
                      not asked because that was what he had been doing for 20 years or
                      so. Well, he is still very much into the "higher/lower/master"
                      stuff, but we have given him the website address for background
                      information about Eckankar.

                      The Eckist I spoke of wanted to know in one sentence what Ford's
                      book was all about. No way to tell him in one sentence! It's even
                      not possible to describe Eckankar in one sentence. I finally broke
                      it down to "I can have all the love and protection I need without
                      the mahanta".

                      They are still stuck in that higher/lower thinking. Just as this
                      Eckist said that a certain tincture he is making comes from
                      the "highest and purest" source. I told him that it was highest and
                      purest because his heart was in it. So weird, at least for me, to
                      think that there is a "highest" out there whereas we can find it in
                      our own heart if we are pure and honest!

                      Happy Holidays to all, too!

                      Ingrid
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