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Re: No wonder Harold did a lot of editing!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Freetoseektruth, ***Thanks for the post! The quotes you give do show why certain Twitch material is no longer available. Klemp has stated that the
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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      Hello Freetoseektruth,

      ***Thanks for the post! The quotes you give do show why certain
      Twitch material is no longer available. Klemp has stated that the
      current Mahanta consciousness has evolved beyond Twitchell's, but if
      that was true then why doesn't Klemp write a Shariyat 3 and 4? And,
      why still use "Stranger by the River" and other books by PT? The
      real truth is that Klemp is incapable of writing such works. Klemp
      doesn't make Twitchell's other early writings available because of
      two factors. One is what you have pointed out (contradictions), as
      well as the obvious plagiarism (stealing someone else's truth), and
      the fiction (lies). The second reason for Klemp Not wanting this
      early Twitch material out there, however, is that Klemp uses it (and
      distorts it) in his own articles. In "The Mystic World of Eckankar"
      June 2005 page 2 Klemp states, "He sought out his teacher, who had
      bad news for him. Milarepa, he said, had made so much black karma
      that he'd better seek out a master of Buddhism and try to redeem
      some of that karma." Twitchell writes in "The Key to ECKANKAR" on
      page 12 that, "Any guru, holy man, saint, or master finding his
      chela using this force for the wrong purposes would certainly stop
      him. The chela might even be punished severely, as was Milarepa, the
      great Tibetan saint, who was punished by his master for misusing the
      power as black magic."
      ********************************************************************

      freetoseektruth wrote:

      Quote from Paul Twitchell, In my soul I am free, pg 121 and 122;

      "No saviour who came to this world intended to propagate a faith.
      Instead he wanted to relay a certain few truths learned in the Far
      Country, and pass them along to those who would listen."


      *******************************************************************
      ***This is true... in part. Some people, like Twitchell, claim to be
      saviours where as Jesus was seen as one. The truth, that Jesus
      spoke, could be applied to each of us and, in essence, was for each
      of us! True Christianity should only follow the words of Jesus. The
      problem here is what were the real words and what has been deleted
      or edited? What and where are the real words of Twitchell?
      ********************************************************************

      The ancient teachers followed this method. They scarcely wrote
      anything, for none of the followers had the ability to read. They
      passed the word by mouth. Once they initiated a person into the
      holy path, which they were following, then they would turn to
      another."

      "None had a clinging social teaching as you find today in many of
      the organized churches. Therefore you find that religion is simply
      a social institution. This is especially true of the Western
      religions, and also a great many of those in the Oriental
      countries." (Didn't Paul claim he gathered all the spiritual
      religious teachings [calling it eckankar], from all four corners of
      the universe, and brought IT back to the people? So did he point out
      the fact about *word of mouth*, because no one is able to disprove
      that this holy path spoken of only by word of mouth, was or wasn't
      eckankar?)


      *******************************************************************
      ***Yes, Twitch claims that this is how he received his teachings...
      from Rebazar Tarzs... and there is no written record of Rebazar
      prior to Twitchell! Didn't Rebazar have other chelas in his 500
      years?! As I have stated before, the belief that Rebazar Tarzs
      actually exists is the key to everything in Eckankar! This one
      belief is the foundation of the Eckankar religion! Without this
      belief both Twitchell and Klemp have No validity as Mahantas and
      the "Eck" house of cards then tumbles down.
      *******************************************************************


      "Name one religion which is in existence today, and I will show you
      that it is a product of social conscience instead of the truth of
      the Sugmad [GOD]. Therefore, all laws which are called the 'Law of
      God' are hardly more than the evolution of social conscience from
      the Law of Manu, Code of Hammurbi, Law of Moses, and the Canons of
      the Christian Church," and now Paul's eckankar having been turned
      into a social consciousness religion, by the more CONsciously Aware
      Harold Klemp.


      ********************************************************************
      ***True! Twitchell contradicts himself once again! However, this is
      also a technique of brainwashing. Be truthful and honest (to a
      degree), on one hand, and misdirect, mislead, and confuse on the
      other hand! When someone has stated a truth or has been honest and
      truthful with people they will think that everything else said is
      true. People just accept it because, although, it may sound alien
      and confusing it has to be true because common or obvious and
      logical truths have already been shared or revealed. This technique
      will get seekers to put their guard down because, in truth, they
      want and need to believe. And, it's also obvious that people (the
      masses) tend to have a normal propensity to follow others. This is
      why the politicians, corporations, and religions have taken over the
      consciousness of this planet!
      *********************************************************************



      "What do they represent? Hardly more than the rules and regulations
      of the priestcraft by which they might control their followers and
      maintain a political and economic hold over multitudes. Didn't
      Jesus know this when he was challenged by the Pharisees and
      Torahists?" (Even though Paul's predictions were way off, was he
      predicting his own secret path's future? We know he was not a
      Master, Mahanta, or God Man! But a man with an illness!)


      *******************************************************************
      ***Yes, Paul's predictions were way off! This is probably why Klemp
      doesn't do any! Still, if the Eck-Vidya was true, and not just more
      Twitchell fiction, then why doesn't Klemp use it? Or, was this just
      a Twitchell thing? Funny how Klemp disregards what are supposedly
      the foundations of Eck belief when it suits him! But, Klemp knows
      that some Eckists are afraid to speak their thoughts or question
      things or else they could lose that next initiation or position, and
      others are well trained to keep silent and surrender their doubts.
      This makes the shallow nonsense seem like spiritual words of wisdom,
      and Eckists (like naive and inexperienced children) continue to play
      the simplistic (and sometimes dangerous) game of FOLLOW THE LEADER!
      ********************************************************************

      "God appears to all men in the same fashion, regardless of their
      faith and religion. Those who seek the unknown quality have
      experiences which are far out of this world. Experiences are
      worthless; (maybe why HK claims love is too) you can have them for a
      rupee a dozen, or in the thousands if necessary, but what is the use
      of such a thing?"

      "The true spiritual traveler, regardless of what anybody says in any
      of the planes here or in the Far Country, doesn't seek mystic
      experiences to better himself, nor is he interested in people or
      working for the tuza."


      *********************************************************************
      ***Yet, experiences (and sharing them) seems to be another
      cornerstone of Eckankar! Just look at all of those articles in the
      H.I. Letter, Mystic World, Letter of Light, and RESA Star! And,
      let's not forget those seminar talks, intros, and Initiate Reports
      that Klemp puts in "his" Mahanta Transcripts! The sharing of
      these "spiritual experiences" is how Eckists "prove" that the Eck
      teachings are valid (in the Eck-Borg collective)! The thing is that
      most of these inner/outer experiences (except for the embellished
      and fictional ones) would/do occur regardless of Eckankar! Once
      again, look at James Davis! He left Eckankar years ago and most
      Eckists don't even know this or why he left! James found out that he
      was brainwashed by the Eckankar dogma and that these inner
      experiences were Not with Klemp the LEM/Mahanta or any "ECK" Master!
      The experiences were ways in which his own true Self communicated
      with him by using his mental impressions and beliefs!
      *********************************************************************



      "He backs away instantly from any authority whatsoever. He calls
      upon no one, not even the Sugmad, for aid, for he knows that it
      depends upon himself to solve the issues which he must face in the
      Far Country." (No wonder HK edited or removed Paul's works!)


      *********************************************************************
      ***The term "FAR COUNTRY" was even stolen from "The Path of the
      Masters" by Twitchell. I could give the page numbers if you'd like.
      Yes, it is strange that Klemp encourages Eckists to call upon him,
      the Mahanta, for guidance and protection and still talks
      of "spiritual freedom" and "Self-Mastery." It's that dangling carrot
      again that is forever just out of reach. But, this is the fault of
      the chela and Not of Master Klump... right?! Klemp never takes
      responsibility for the negative in a chela's life... only the
      positive! This is the real CATCH-22! And, this was how Twitchell set
      it all up. The LEM/Mahanta never comes up short. The shame and guilt
      are for the chelas to experience... it keeps them distracted and
      occupied, and under control! Klemp's the top dog and you aren't!
      Eckists should know their places within the hierarchy and this
      knowledge will protect them, and make it much easier for them to
      survive Eckankar and live with their delusions! LOL! Eckists should
      ask themselves... Who's got the power over them? Why, when, and how
      did this happen?
      *********************************************************************

      Prometheus
    • l2eigh
      And,why still use Stranger by the River and other books by PT? Hi Prometheus: It s not just this... why still publish books written by people who ve left
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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        And,why still use "Stranger by the River" and other books by PT?


        Hi Prometheus:
        It's not just this... why still publish books written by
        people who've left Eckankar or who've been asked to leave (as in the
        case of Patti Simpson)? Whether you consided this practice disingenuous
        or worse it's certainly confusing, and should be questionable for
        that reason alone.

        Leigh
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Leigh, Actually I have looked at the Eckankar.org site and saw that there are only five Twitchell books listed for sale. The Shariyats 1 & 2, The Tiger s
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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          Hi Leigh,
          Actually I have looked at the Eckankar.org site and saw that there
          are only five Twitchell books listed for sale. The Shariyats 1 & 2,
          The Tiger's Fang, Stranger by the River, and Eckankar The Key to
          Secret Worlds. I didn't include The newer Tiger's Fang comic book...
          which is probably a more accurate category for Twitch's
          manuscript! : )

          The other non-Klemp ECK books seem to be written by Mary Carroll
          Moore, Linda C. Anderson, and Debbie Johnson. So, it does seem like
          Klemp has been doing some house cleaning on a gradual basis as
          to "ween off" and Not to shock Eckists too much.

          The purpose in keeping "Stranger by the River" is that it helps to
          verify (supposedly) the existance of Rebazar Tarzs. And, RT
          validates Twitch who validates Gross who validates Klemp and then RT
          re-validates Klemp again!

          Plus, let's not forget that the Holy Books of Eckankar, the
          Shariyats, are written by Twitchell. Klemp, and those who may come
          after him, can only add to these with their own Shariyats or edit
          Twitchell's ... more. However, I don't see it worth the effort to
          write more Shariyats when Eckists seem fine with reading between the
          lines to find their own version of (inner) truth regardless of what
          Klemp tries to sell them on the outer.

          Yes, Eckists should question HK's book policy, but the sounds of
          silence pervade as Eckists quietly march in step along a very long
          and very winding road. LOL!

          Prometheus


          l2eigh wrote:

          And,why still use "Stranger by the River" and other books by PT?


          Hi Prometheus:
          It's not just this... why still publish books written by
          people who've left Eckankar or who've been asked to leave (as in the
          case of Patti Simpson)? Whether you consided this practice
          disingenuous or worse it's certainly confusing, and should be
          questionable for that reason alone.

          Leigh
        • mishmisha9
          Hi, Leigh! The word confusing is the key to keeping eckists in the org. Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the confusion. The confusion
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 16, 2005
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            Hi, Leigh!

            The word "confusing" is the key to keeping eckists in the org.
            Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the
            confusion. The confusion is justified and deemed okay because it is
            just part of the teachings. When the chela advances, he will
            understand better. Yada, yada! The confusion is just an indication
            that the chela has not advanced enough to "know." So, this validates
            the quite "normal" confusion which in turn makes the chela feel that
            all is right with the teachings in eckankar. The confusion helps to
            control those who question. As to Twitchell's books disappearing,
            well, truly eckists should wonder why they are not available now. It
            would seem that Twitchell's total writings would be of great
            interest and important to the present day teachings in eckankar.
            Certainly something is "rotten in Denmark!"

            Mish

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
            <lgrif@m...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > And,why still use "Stranger by the River" and other books by PT?
            >
            >
            > Hi Prometheus:
            > It's not just this... why still publish books
            written by
            > people who've left Eckankar or who've been asked to leave (as in
            the
            > case of Patti Simpson)? Whether you consided this practice
            disingenuous
            > or worse it's certainly confusing, and should be questionable
            for
            > that reason alone.
            >
            > Leigh
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hi Mish, It does seem strange that the founder of Eckankar (and modern day prophet/savior), Paul Twitchell, doesn t have all of his books available for sale
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 16, 2005
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              Hi Mish,

              It does seem strange that the founder of Eckankar (and modern day
              prophet/savior), Paul Twitchell, doesn't have all of his books
              available for sale from the religion that he created! Paul must be
              spinnibg in his grave, or was he cremated? How disappointed he must
              be in little Harry Klemp! All of that Eck donation money for guilted
              staircases and such, but none left to reprint the historical
              beginnings and wisdom of such an advanced spiritual path! <sigh>

              What could be the reasons for Not offering these books? Is it true
              that some of the Paul's early writings might Not "fit" perfectly
              with today's consciousness? But wouldn't Christians want to read
              every word that Jesus had spoken?! Then again, maybe some Christian
              leaders wouldn't want every thought and word of Jesus's shared with
              the world. What would these leaders fear? That the wisdom wouldn't
              apply to the modern world or that people would just be confused by
              unfiltered and unedited wisdom. Maybe the thought would be, Why
              create more confusion for people? Maybe little Harry is thinking,
              Why create more confusion for Eckists? Actually, Klemp is saving
              Eckists from the truth about Twitchell, and the scam of Eckankar.
              For Eckists, ignorance really is bliss! Besides, little Harry would
              be out of a high paying job with great perks if Eckists figured it
              all out too soon!

              Prometheus



              mishmisha wrote:

              The word "confusing" is the key to keeping eckists in the org.
              Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the
              confusion. The confusion is justified and deemed okay because it is
              just part of the teachings. When the chela advances, he will
              understand better. Yada, yada! The confusion is just an indication
              that the chela has not advanced enough to "know." So, this validates
              the quite "normal" confusion which in turn makes the chela feel that
              all is right with the teachings in eckankar. The confusion helps to
              control those who question. As to Twitchell's books disappearing,
              well, truly eckists should wonder why they are not available now. It
              would seem that Twitchell's total writings would be of great
              interest and important to the present day teachings in eckankar.
              Certainly something is "rotten in Denmark!"

              Mish
            • ctecvie
              Hello Prometheus, ... *** Little Harry wanted the temple to last till eternity - so maybe he thought some gold couldn t hurt! Perhaps he wanted to set a
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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                Hello Prometheus,

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Mish,
                >
                > It does seem strange that the founder of Eckankar (and modern day
                > prophet/savior), Paul Twitchell, doesn't have all of his books
                > available for sale from the religion that he created! Paul must be
                > spinnibg in his grave, or was he cremated? How disappointed he
                >must
                > be in little Harry Klemp! All of that Eck donation money for
                >guilted
                > staircases and such, but none left to reprint the historical
                > beginnings and wisdom of such an advanced spiritual path! <sigh>

                *** Little Harry wanted the temple to last till eternity - so maybe
                he thought some gold couldn't hurt! Perhaps he wanted to set a
                monument for himself, in stone, marble, gold and the like! This is
                better as books because books can get lost quite easily -
                discontinue them, burn them, discredit them ... whatever.

                >
                > What could be the reasons for Not offering these books? Is it true
                > that some of the Paul's early writings might Not "fit" perfectly
                > with today's consciousness? But wouldn't Christians want to read
                > every word that Jesus had spoken?! Then again, maybe some
                >Christian
                > leaders wouldn't want every thought and word of Jesus's shared
                >with
                > the world. What would these leaders fear? That the wisdom wouldn't
                > apply to the modern world or that people would just be confused by
                > unfiltered and unedited wisdom. Maybe the thought would be, Why
                > create more confusion for people? Maybe little Harry is thinking,
                > Why create more confusion for Eckists? Actually, Klemp is saving
                > Eckists from the truth about Twitchell, and the scam of Eckankar.
                > For Eckists, ignorance really is bliss! Besides, little Harry
                >would
                > be out of a high paying job with great perks if Eckists figured it
                > all out too soon!

                Yeah - I think PT said things that would not be consistent with the
                course Eckankar is steering today - and this could be embarrassing
                for the leaders (by the way is it Little Harry Himself or rather
                Peter Skelskey who is steering the Eckankar boat?). And imagine how
                embarrassing it would be if suddenly the original version
                of "Letters to Gail" came up! LOL!

                Ingrid
              • l2eigh
                Hi Mish: Oh, I certainly agree that confusing and confusion make up the heart of Eckankar. The dangerous thing is to settle down (accept this), to become
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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                  Hi Mish:
                  Oh, I certainly agree that "confusing" and "confusion" make
                  up the heart of Eckankar. The dangerous thing is to "settle down"
                  (accept this), to become peaceful and content, carrying this nest of
                  emptines and meaninglessness inside you.
                  Incidentally, happy holidays to you and everyone on this
                  list.

                  Leigh



                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                  <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi, Leigh!
                  >
                  > The word "confusing" is the key to keeping eckists in the org.
                  > Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the
                  > confusion. The confusion is justified and deemed okay because it
                  is
                  > just part of the teachings. When the chela advances, he will
                  > understand better. Yada, yada! The confusion is just an indication
                  > that the chela has not advanced enough to "know." So, this
                  validates
                  > the quite "normal" confusion which in turn makes the chela feel
                  that
                  > all is right with the teachings in eckankar. The confusion helps
                  to
                  > control those who question. As to Twitchell's books disappearing,
                  > well, truly eckists should wonder why they are not available now.
                  It
                  > would seem that Twitchell's total writings would be of great
                  > interest and important to the present day teachings in eckankar.
                  > Certainly something is "rotten in Denmark!"
                  >
                  > Mish
                • prometheus_973
                  Hi Ingrid and All, It seems Klemp can do and say anything without having it questioned by Eckists. But, that s what has always made Eckankar a cult! Klemp
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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                    Hi Ingrid and All,
                    It seems Klemp can do and say anything without having it questioned
                    by Eckists. But, that's what has always made Eckankar a cult! Klemp
                    eliminates and edits Twitchell's original material while only
                    sharing shallow, common place, embellished, or contradicting
                    accounts of perceived "spiritual" wisdom.

                    In Klemp's 2005 EWWS talk he states, "Enthusiasm is infectious.
                    People respond. Missionary work is fun." Yet this is from a person
                    who has been employed by Eckankar for 35 years! It's been part of
                    his paid job to do missionary work. So once again... talk is a cheap
                    commodity for Little Harry. Besides, aren't Eckists supposed to be
                    neither for or against anything? Does "enthusiasm" depict detachment
                    or contentment? Or, do Eckists just demonstrate or act "as if" they
                    have enthusiasm, as well as, love in their hearts?!

                    It's funny that Klemp found out that some people at the local Unity
                    Church referred to him as "Big" Harry, and he in turn flipped that
                    to compare himself to the mythological coal mining hero of "Big"
                    John. But I see him more as the mythological thief of "Little" John
                    who helped Robin Hood to rob the rich and give to the poor. Instead,
                    however, the irony is that Klemp is not a physically large or strong
                    man as Little John was, and that Klemp steals from the poor Eckists
                    to make himself rich! Therefore, I have thus crowned Shree Klemp as
                    Little Harry!



                    Ingrid wrote:

                    Hello Prometheus,

                    Prometheus wrote:
                    It does seem strange that the founder of Eckankar (and modern day
                    prophet/savior), Paul Twitchell, doesn't have all of his books
                    available for sale from the religion that he created! Paul must be
                    spinnibg in his grave, or was he cremated? How disappointed he must
                    be in little Harry Klemp! All of that Eck donation money for guilted
                    staircases and such, but none left to reprint the historical
                    beginnings and wisdom of such an advanced spiritual path! <sigh>

                    Ingrid: Little Harry wanted the temple to last till eternity - so
                    maybe he thought some gold couldn't hurt! Perhaps he wanted to set a
                    monument for himself, in stone, marble, gold and the like! This is
                    better as books because books can get lost quite easily -
                    discontinue them, burn them, discredit them ... whatever.



                    *****I think your're correct! Klemp built a monument to himself! How
                    could any future LEM/Mahanta deny, edit, or delete this? Hmmmmm.
                    Actually, in time Klemp's material, reputation, and works could be
                    seen in its true light and easily be reduced to nothing of substance.




                    Prometheus: What could be the reasons for Not offering these books?
                    Is it true that some of the Paul's early writings might Not "fit"
                    perfectly with today's consciousness? But wouldn't Christians want
                    to read every word that Jesus had spoken?! Then again, maybe some
                    Christian leaders wouldn't want every thought and word of Jesus's
                    shared with the world. What would these leaders fear? That the
                    wisdom wouldn't apply to the modern world or that people would just
                    be confused by unfiltered and unedited wisdom. Maybe the thought
                    would be, Why create more confusion for people? Maybe little Harry
                    is thinking, Why create more confusion for Eckists? Actually, Klemp
                    is saving Eckists from the truth about Twitchell, and the scam of
                    Eckankar. For Eckists, ignorance really is bliss! Besides, little
                    Harry would be out of a high paying job with great perks if Eckists
                    figured it all out too soon!

                    Ingrid: Yeah - I think PT said things that would not be consistent
                    with the course Eckankar is steering today - and this could be
                    embarrassing for the leaders (by the way is it Little Harry Himself
                    or rather Peter Skelskey who is steering the Eckankar boat?). And
                    imagine how embarrassing it would be if suddenly the original
                    version of "Letters to Gail" came up! LOL!


                    *****It could be that Joan is doing more steering than Peter! Peter
                    is just waiting in the wings and being a yes man and lap dog for
                    now. The question for Little Harry and Joan is, Who can be trusted
                    Not to do to Klemp that Klemp did to Gross?!

                    Prometheus
                  • mishmisha9
                    Hi, Leigh! Proof of this confusion is readily seen in the posts by eckists on the non-official eck chat sites--if you care to check out Chela Chat and Hu Chat.
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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                      Hi, Leigh!

                      Proof of this confusion is readily seen in the posts by eckists on
                      the non-official eck chat sites--if you care to check out Chela Chat
                      and Hu Chat. They seem to have a problem agreeing about what is
                      meant in the teachings! As for karma, eckists, instead of getting
                      rid of it, seem to rope more and more of it in, because they feel
                      they have to deal with certain situations/relationships instead of
                      saying "I pass." LOL! Many struggle hanging in unhealthy
                      relationships because they are looking for the higher meaning of it
                      all--and try to make something work that is too badly broken to
                      begin with. I believe that eckists are taught to be delusional more
                      than any other thing and this is what they are "learning from the
                      teachings!" LOL! Too bad they won't read Ford Johnson's
                      book "Confessions of a God Seeker" so that a light bulb might be
                      turned on in their muddled minds. It's really sad. This also applies
                      to those former eckists who continue to cling to the "truths" they
                      learned in eckankar--they still want to believe that they evolved
                      because of those special eck teachings! The truth is (IMO) that they
                      will not evolve until they let go of this delusional eck thinking--
                      and until they accept the fact they were duped by the
                      false/deceptive teachings in eckankar, these individuals will also
                      continue to operate in a delusional state of consciousness
                      and remain stuck, much like the eckists who remain trapped in
                      eckankar right now.

                      Happy Holidays to you too, and of course to everyone else who
                      participates by posting and/or reading here!

                      Mish

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                      <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Mish:
                      > Oh, I certainly agree that "confusing" and "confusion"
                      make
                      > up the heart of Eckankar. The dangerous thing is to "settle down"
                      > (accept this), to become peaceful and content, carrying this nest
                      of
                      > emptines and meaninglessness inside you.
                      > Incidentally, happy holidays to you and everyone on this
                      > list.
                      >
                      > Leigh
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                      > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi, Leigh!
                      > >
                      > > The word "confusing" is the key to keeping eckists in the org.
                      > > Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the
                      > > confusion. The confusion is justified and deemed okay because it
                      > is
                      > > just part of the teachings. When the chela advances, he will
                      > > understand better. Yada, yada! The confusion is just an
                      indication
                      > > that the chela has not advanced enough to "know." So, this
                      > validates
                      > > the quite "normal" confusion which in turn makes the chela feel
                      > that
                      > > all is right with the teachings in eckankar. The confusion helps
                      > to
                      > > control those who question. As to Twitchell's books
                      disappearing,
                      > > well, truly eckists should wonder why they are not available
                      now.
                      > It
                      > > would seem that Twitchell's total writings would be of great
                      > > interest and important to the present day teachings in eckankar.
                      > > Certainly something is "rotten in Denmark!"
                      > >
                      > > Mish
                      >
                    • ctecvie
                      Hello Mish, ... *** Today, we met an eckist who has brought quite some members to Eckankar. He is confused, too, because he has been a member for 24 years now
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 18, 2005
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                        Hello Mish,

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                        <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi, Leigh!
                        >
                        > Proof of this confusion is readily seen in the posts by eckists on
                        > the non-official eck chat sites--if you care to check out Chela
                        >Chat
                        > and Hu Chat.

                        *** Today, we met an eckist who has brought quite some members to
                        Eckankar. He is confused, too, because he has been a member for 24
                        years now and really has done more than his share - but still no 5th
                        initiation. The thing is that he isn't very complying to the
                        guidelines, has never sent in any initiation reports and such. He
                        knows that he doesn't fit and that this is why. He was excluded from
                        vahana work by the resas. He said that some months ago, he had seen
                        that a postering workshop was planned and asked himself why he was
                        not asked because that was what he had been doing for 20 years or
                        so. Well, he is still very much into the "higher/lower/master"
                        stuff, but we have given him the website address for background
                        information about Eckankar.

                        > They seem to have a problem agreeing about what is
                        > meant in the teachings! As for karma, eckists, instead of getting
                        > rid of it, seem to rope more and more of it in, because they feel
                        > they have to deal with certain situations/relationships instead of
                        > saying "I pass." LOL! Many struggle hanging in unhealthy
                        > relationships because they are looking for the higher meaning of
                        >it
                        > all--and try to make something work that is too badly broken to
                        > begin with.

                        *** That's the point - they think that they are resolving karma but
                        instead are staying in unhealthy situations because they think it
                        has to be that way. The power we have is to decide whether we want
                        to stay or leave to look for other, better circumstances to learn
                        what we have to learn. Of course we "run away" - but I firmly
                        believe that this "running away" is very often very helpful. For me
                        anyway, as this enabled me to eventually see that what I ran from
                        was in fact the same problem every time. Had I stayed where I was, I
                        never would have been able to realize this.

                        >I believe that eckists are taught to be delusional more
                        > than any other thing and this is what they are "learning from the
                        > teachings!" LOL! Too bad they won't read Ford Johnson's
                        > book "Confessions of a God Seeker" so that a light bulb might be
                        > turned on in their muddled minds. It's really sad.

                        *** The Eckist I spoke of wanted to know in one sentence what Ford's
                        book was all about. No way to tell him in one sentence! It's even
                        not possible to describe Eckankar in one sentence. I finally broke
                        it down to "I can have all the love and protection I need without
                        the mahanta".

                        >This also applies
                        > to those former eckists who continue to cling to the "truths" they
                        > learned in eckankar--they still want to believe that they evolved
                        > because of those special eck teachings! The truth is (IMO) that
                        >they
                        > will not evolve until they let go of this delusional eck thinking--
                        > and until they accept the fact they were duped by the
                        > false/deceptive teachings in eckankar, these individuals will also
                        > continue to operate in a delusional state of consciousness
                        > and remain stuck, much like the eckists who remain trapped in
                        > eckankar right now.

                        ***They are still stuck in that higher/lower thinking. Just as this
                        Eckist said that a certain tincture he is making comes from
                        the "highest and purest" source. I told him that it was highest and
                        purest because his heart was in it. So weird, at least for me, to
                        think that there is a "highest" out there whereas we can find it in
                        our own heart if we are pure and honest!
                        >
                        > Happy Holidays to you too, and of course to everyone else who
                        > participates by posting and/or reading here!

                        *** Happy Holidays to all, too!
                        Ingrid
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hi Mish, The problem that many Eckists have, with reading Ford s book Confessions, is that they are fearful of the book and believe that words which
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 18, 2005
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                          Hi Mish,

                          The problem that many Eckists have, with reading Ford's
                          book "Confessions," is that they are fearful of the book and believe
                          that words which criticize Eckankar are negative. Therefore, why
                          would someone, an Eckist, that is so pure, positive, and spiritual
                          <smile> want to expose theirself to negativity? They forget,
                          however, that negativity surrounds them and all of us, and that one
                          should not deny it exists. Negativity (conflict) is a means to
                          personal and spiritual growth... is it not?

                          Many current Eckists who have "read" Confessions of a God Seeker
                          actually did a speed read because of their fear. They feared that
                          doubt would enter their minds and that Eckankar would not be able to
                          withstand the scruntiny of truth which they have denied seeing and
                          questioning over the years. Therefore, these Eckists (and some
                          former Eckists) did a "Paul Twitchell" and skimmed Confessions, but
                          did so with a closed or semi-closed mind. People, in general, are
                          fearful of change and of having comfortable delusions and
                          rationalizations shattered. Eckankar, and religion in general, is
                          like having your own private and indestructible "spiritual" security
                          blanket. Yours keeps you safe, it's always better than the next
                          person's, you are always farther along with a personal relationship
                          with the Inner (Whatever), or can see from a higher perspective...
                          right?! This is simply how our minds (and egos) work and there are
                          those who take advantage of this.

                          Paul Twitchell was not unique when we look at history. There are
                          thousands and thousands of con men and women doing their own unique
                          scam at any given moment! This has always been the case! Some of
                          these people even have good intentions, at times, but what they sell
                          is what they can see we all want and need. Is it any wonder that
                          both financial and spiritual security (peace of mind) is such big
                          business!

                          Happy Holidays Everyone!

                          Prometheus




                          mishmisha wrote:
                          Hi Leigh,
                          Proof of this confusion is readily seen in the posts by eckists on
                          the non-official eck chat sites--if you care to check out Chela Chat
                          and Hu Chat. They seem to have a problem agreeing about what is
                          meant in the teachings! As for karma, eckists, instead of getting
                          rid of it, seem to rope more and more of it in, because they feel
                          they have to deal with certain situations/relationships instead of
                          saying "I pass." LOL!

                          Many struggle hanging in unhealthy relationships because they are
                          looking for the higher meaning of it all--and try to make something
                          work that is too badly broken to begin with. I believe that eckists
                          are taught to be delusional more than any other thing and this is
                          what they are "learning from the teachings!" LOL!

                          Too bad they won't read Ford Johnson's book "Confessions of a God
                          Seeker" so that a light bulb might be turned on in their muddled
                          minds. It's really sad. This also applies to those former eckists
                          who continue to cling to the "truths" they learned in eckankar--they
                          still want to believe that they evolved because of those special eck
                          teachings!

                          The truth is (IMO) that they will not evolve until they let go of
                          this delusional eck thinking--and until they accept the fact they
                          were duped by the false/deceptive teachings in eckankar, these
                          individuals will also continue to operate in a delusional state of
                          consciousness and remain stuck, much like the eckists who remain
                          trapped in eckankar right now.

                          Happy Holidays to you too, and of course to everyone else who
                          participates by posting and/or reading here!

                          Mish
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hi Ingrid, It seems that this Eckist doesn t understand his place in the hierarchy. Under the RESA structure one must be a team member and follow the rules
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 18, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Ingrid,
                            It seems that this Eckist doesn't understand his place in the
                            hierarchy. Under the RESA structure one must be a team member and
                            follow the rules (spoken and unspoken), know the Mahanta's mission,
                            but especially comply with the written guidelines. Does he know
                            there are even guidelines for postering? I was quite an enthusiastic
                            vahana at one time, but eventually mellowed when I continuously saw
                            the overwhelming flaws. How could such flaws exist in H.I. chelas
                            and the Eckankar org if this was the highest spiritual path in all
                            of the universes of Sugmad?! This was very confusing, didn't make
                            sense, and caused me a lot of conflict! This chela (a 4th?) will
                            never be trusted with a higher initiation if he cannot work within
                            or understand the RESA structure. The standards are much stricter
                            for today's Eckists than in the past. However, this is the big
                            problem with Eckankar... all of those old timer H.I.s that reject
                            the Guidelines! I don't blame them! Eckankar has become very
                            controlling, narrow of focus, and a top heavy business (religion)!
                            And, that glass ceiling of initiation (the 7th) is starting to show
                            more cracks! LOL!

                            Prometheus


                            Ingrid wrote:

                            Today, we met an eckist who has brought quite some members to
                            Eckankar. He is confused, too, because he has been a member for 24
                            years now and really has done more than his share - but still no 5th
                            initiation. The thing is that he isn't very complying to the
                            guidelines, has never sent in any initiation reports and such. He
                            knows that he doesn't fit and that this is why. He was excluded from
                            vahana work by the resas. He said that some months ago, he had seen
                            that a postering workshop was planned and asked himself why he was
                            not asked because that was what he had been doing for 20 years or
                            so. Well, he is still very much into the "higher/lower/master"
                            stuff, but we have given him the website address for background
                            information about Eckankar.

                            The Eckist I spoke of wanted to know in one sentence what Ford's
                            book was all about. No way to tell him in one sentence! It's even
                            not possible to describe Eckankar in one sentence. I finally broke
                            it down to "I can have all the love and protection I need without
                            the mahanta".

                            They are still stuck in that higher/lower thinking. Just as this
                            Eckist said that a certain tincture he is making comes from
                            the "highest and purest" source. I told him that it was highest and
                            purest because his heart was in it. So weird, at least for me, to
                            think that there is a "highest" out there whereas we can find it in
                            our own heart if we are pure and honest!

                            Happy Holidays to all, too!

                            Ingrid
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