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No wonder Harold did a lot of editing!

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  • freetoseektruth
    Quote from Paul Twitchell, In my soul I am free, pg 121 and 122; No saviour who came to this world intended to propagate a faith. Instead he wanted to relay a
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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      Quote from Paul Twitchell, In my soul I am free, pg 121 and 122;

      "No saviour who came to this world intended to propagate a faith.
      Instead he wanted to relay a certain few truths learned in the Far
      Country, and pass them along to those who would listen."

      The ancient teachers followed this method. They scarcely wrote
      anything, for none of the followers had the ability to read. They
      passed the word by mouth. Once they initiated a person into the holy
      path, which they were following, then they would turn to another."

      "None had a clinging social teaching as you find today in many of the
      organized churches. Therefore you find that religion is simply a
      social institution. This is especially true of the Western religions,
      and also a great many of those in the Oriental countries." (Didn't
      Paul claim he gathered all the spiritual religious teachings [calling
      it eckankar], from all four corners of the universe, and brought IT
      back to the people? So did he point out the fact about *word of
      mouth*, because no one is able to disprove that this holy path spoken
      of only by word of mouth, was or wasn't eckankar?)

      "Name one religion which is in existence today, and I will show you
      that it is a product of social conscience instead of the truth of the
      Sugmad [GOD]. Therefore, all laws which are called the 'Law of God'
      are hardly more than the evolution of social conscience from the Law
      of Manu, Code of Hammurbi, Law of Moses, and the Canons of the
      Christian Church," and now Paul's eckankar having been turned into a
      social consciousness religion, by the more CONsciously Aware Harold
      Klemp.

      "What do they represent? Hardly more than the rules and regulations
      of the priestcraft by which they might control their followers and
      maintain a political and economic hold over multitudes. Didn't Jesus
      know this when he was challenged by the Pharisees and Torahists?"
      (Even though Paul's predictions were way off, was he predicting his
      own secret path's future? We know he was not a Master, Mahanta, or
      God Man! But a man with an illness!)

      "God appears to all men in the same fashion, regardless of their
      faith and religion. Those who seek the unknown quality have
      experiences which are far out of this world. Experiences are
      worthless; (maybe why HK claims love is too) you can have them for a
      rupee a dozen, or in the thousands if necessary, but what is the use
      of such a thing?"

      "The true spiritual traveler, regardless of what anybody says in any
      of the planes here or in the Far Country, doesn't seek mystic
      experiences to better himself, nor is he interested in people or
      working for the tuza."

      "He backs away instantly from any authority whatsoever. He calls
      upon no one, not even the Sugmad, for aid, for he knows that it
      depends upon himself to solve the issues which he must face in the
      Far Country." (No wonder HK edited or removed Paul's works!)
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Freetoseektruth, ***Thanks for the post! The quotes you give do show why certain Twitch material is no longer available. Klemp has stated that the
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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        Hello Freetoseektruth,

        ***Thanks for the post! The quotes you give do show why certain
        Twitch material is no longer available. Klemp has stated that the
        current Mahanta consciousness has evolved beyond Twitchell's, but if
        that was true then why doesn't Klemp write a Shariyat 3 and 4? And,
        why still use "Stranger by the River" and other books by PT? The
        real truth is that Klemp is incapable of writing such works. Klemp
        doesn't make Twitchell's other early writings available because of
        two factors. One is what you have pointed out (contradictions), as
        well as the obvious plagiarism (stealing someone else's truth), and
        the fiction (lies). The second reason for Klemp Not wanting this
        early Twitch material out there, however, is that Klemp uses it (and
        distorts it) in his own articles. In "The Mystic World of Eckankar"
        June 2005 page 2 Klemp states, "He sought out his teacher, who had
        bad news for him. Milarepa, he said, had made so much black karma
        that he'd better seek out a master of Buddhism and try to redeem
        some of that karma." Twitchell writes in "The Key to ECKANKAR" on
        page 12 that, "Any guru, holy man, saint, or master finding his
        chela using this force for the wrong purposes would certainly stop
        him. The chela might even be punished severely, as was Milarepa, the
        great Tibetan saint, who was punished by his master for misusing the
        power as black magic."
        ********************************************************************

        freetoseektruth wrote:

        Quote from Paul Twitchell, In my soul I am free, pg 121 and 122;

        "No saviour who came to this world intended to propagate a faith.
        Instead he wanted to relay a certain few truths learned in the Far
        Country, and pass them along to those who would listen."


        *******************************************************************
        ***This is true... in part. Some people, like Twitchell, claim to be
        saviours where as Jesus was seen as one. The truth, that Jesus
        spoke, could be applied to each of us and, in essence, was for each
        of us! True Christianity should only follow the words of Jesus. The
        problem here is what were the real words and what has been deleted
        or edited? What and where are the real words of Twitchell?
        ********************************************************************

        The ancient teachers followed this method. They scarcely wrote
        anything, for none of the followers had the ability to read. They
        passed the word by mouth. Once they initiated a person into the
        holy path, which they were following, then they would turn to
        another."

        "None had a clinging social teaching as you find today in many of
        the organized churches. Therefore you find that religion is simply
        a social institution. This is especially true of the Western
        religions, and also a great many of those in the Oriental
        countries." (Didn't Paul claim he gathered all the spiritual
        religious teachings [calling it eckankar], from all four corners of
        the universe, and brought IT back to the people? So did he point out
        the fact about *word of mouth*, because no one is able to disprove
        that this holy path spoken of only by word of mouth, was or wasn't
        eckankar?)


        *******************************************************************
        ***Yes, Twitch claims that this is how he received his teachings...
        from Rebazar Tarzs... and there is no written record of Rebazar
        prior to Twitchell! Didn't Rebazar have other chelas in his 500
        years?! As I have stated before, the belief that Rebazar Tarzs
        actually exists is the key to everything in Eckankar! This one
        belief is the foundation of the Eckankar religion! Without this
        belief both Twitchell and Klemp have No validity as Mahantas and
        the "Eck" house of cards then tumbles down.
        *******************************************************************


        "Name one religion which is in existence today, and I will show you
        that it is a product of social conscience instead of the truth of
        the Sugmad [GOD]. Therefore, all laws which are called the 'Law of
        God' are hardly more than the evolution of social conscience from
        the Law of Manu, Code of Hammurbi, Law of Moses, and the Canons of
        the Christian Church," and now Paul's eckankar having been turned
        into a social consciousness religion, by the more CONsciously Aware
        Harold Klemp.


        ********************************************************************
        ***True! Twitchell contradicts himself once again! However, this is
        also a technique of brainwashing. Be truthful and honest (to a
        degree), on one hand, and misdirect, mislead, and confuse on the
        other hand! When someone has stated a truth or has been honest and
        truthful with people they will think that everything else said is
        true. People just accept it because, although, it may sound alien
        and confusing it has to be true because common or obvious and
        logical truths have already been shared or revealed. This technique
        will get seekers to put their guard down because, in truth, they
        want and need to believe. And, it's also obvious that people (the
        masses) tend to have a normal propensity to follow others. This is
        why the politicians, corporations, and religions have taken over the
        consciousness of this planet!
        *********************************************************************



        "What do they represent? Hardly more than the rules and regulations
        of the priestcraft by which they might control their followers and
        maintain a political and economic hold over multitudes. Didn't
        Jesus know this when he was challenged by the Pharisees and
        Torahists?" (Even though Paul's predictions were way off, was he
        predicting his own secret path's future? We know he was not a
        Master, Mahanta, or God Man! But a man with an illness!)


        *******************************************************************
        ***Yes, Paul's predictions were way off! This is probably why Klemp
        doesn't do any! Still, if the Eck-Vidya was true, and not just more
        Twitchell fiction, then why doesn't Klemp use it? Or, was this just
        a Twitchell thing? Funny how Klemp disregards what are supposedly
        the foundations of Eck belief when it suits him! But, Klemp knows
        that some Eckists are afraid to speak their thoughts or question
        things or else they could lose that next initiation or position, and
        others are well trained to keep silent and surrender their doubts.
        This makes the shallow nonsense seem like spiritual words of wisdom,
        and Eckists (like naive and inexperienced children) continue to play
        the simplistic (and sometimes dangerous) game of FOLLOW THE LEADER!
        ********************************************************************

        "God appears to all men in the same fashion, regardless of their
        faith and religion. Those who seek the unknown quality have
        experiences which are far out of this world. Experiences are
        worthless; (maybe why HK claims love is too) you can have them for a
        rupee a dozen, or in the thousands if necessary, but what is the use
        of such a thing?"

        "The true spiritual traveler, regardless of what anybody says in any
        of the planes here or in the Far Country, doesn't seek mystic
        experiences to better himself, nor is he interested in people or
        working for the tuza."


        *********************************************************************
        ***Yet, experiences (and sharing them) seems to be another
        cornerstone of Eckankar! Just look at all of those articles in the
        H.I. Letter, Mystic World, Letter of Light, and RESA Star! And,
        let's not forget those seminar talks, intros, and Initiate Reports
        that Klemp puts in "his" Mahanta Transcripts! The sharing of
        these "spiritual experiences" is how Eckists "prove" that the Eck
        teachings are valid (in the Eck-Borg collective)! The thing is that
        most of these inner/outer experiences (except for the embellished
        and fictional ones) would/do occur regardless of Eckankar! Once
        again, look at James Davis! He left Eckankar years ago and most
        Eckists don't even know this or why he left! James found out that he
        was brainwashed by the Eckankar dogma and that these inner
        experiences were Not with Klemp the LEM/Mahanta or any "ECK" Master!
        The experiences were ways in which his own true Self communicated
        with him by using his mental impressions and beliefs!
        *********************************************************************



        "He backs away instantly from any authority whatsoever. He calls
        upon no one, not even the Sugmad, for aid, for he knows that it
        depends upon himself to solve the issues which he must face in the
        Far Country." (No wonder HK edited or removed Paul's works!)


        *********************************************************************
        ***The term "FAR COUNTRY" was even stolen from "The Path of the
        Masters" by Twitchell. I could give the page numbers if you'd like.
        Yes, it is strange that Klemp encourages Eckists to call upon him,
        the Mahanta, for guidance and protection and still talks
        of "spiritual freedom" and "Self-Mastery." It's that dangling carrot
        again that is forever just out of reach. But, this is the fault of
        the chela and Not of Master Klump... right?! Klemp never takes
        responsibility for the negative in a chela's life... only the
        positive! This is the real CATCH-22! And, this was how Twitchell set
        it all up. The LEM/Mahanta never comes up short. The shame and guilt
        are for the chelas to experience... it keeps them distracted and
        occupied, and under control! Klemp's the top dog and you aren't!
        Eckists should know their places within the hierarchy and this
        knowledge will protect them, and make it much easier for them to
        survive Eckankar and live with their delusions! LOL! Eckists should
        ask themselves... Who's got the power over them? Why, when, and how
        did this happen?
        *********************************************************************

        Prometheus
      • l2eigh
        And,why still use Stranger by the River and other books by PT? Hi Prometheus: It s not just this... why still publish books written by people who ve left
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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          And,why still use "Stranger by the River" and other books by PT?


          Hi Prometheus:
          It's not just this... why still publish books written by
          people who've left Eckankar or who've been asked to leave (as in the
          case of Patti Simpson)? Whether you consided this practice disingenuous
          or worse it's certainly confusing, and should be questionable for
          that reason alone.

          Leigh
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Leigh, Actually I have looked at the Eckankar.org site and saw that there are only five Twitchell books listed for sale. The Shariyats 1 & 2, The Tiger s
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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            Hi Leigh,
            Actually I have looked at the Eckankar.org site and saw that there
            are only five Twitchell books listed for sale. The Shariyats 1 & 2,
            The Tiger's Fang, Stranger by the River, and Eckankar The Key to
            Secret Worlds. I didn't include The newer Tiger's Fang comic book...
            which is probably a more accurate category for Twitch's
            manuscript! : )

            The other non-Klemp ECK books seem to be written by Mary Carroll
            Moore, Linda C. Anderson, and Debbie Johnson. So, it does seem like
            Klemp has been doing some house cleaning on a gradual basis as
            to "ween off" and Not to shock Eckists too much.

            The purpose in keeping "Stranger by the River" is that it helps to
            verify (supposedly) the existance of Rebazar Tarzs. And, RT
            validates Twitch who validates Gross who validates Klemp and then RT
            re-validates Klemp again!

            Plus, let's not forget that the Holy Books of Eckankar, the
            Shariyats, are written by Twitchell. Klemp, and those who may come
            after him, can only add to these with their own Shariyats or edit
            Twitchell's ... more. However, I don't see it worth the effort to
            write more Shariyats when Eckists seem fine with reading between the
            lines to find their own version of (inner) truth regardless of what
            Klemp tries to sell them on the outer.

            Yes, Eckists should question HK's book policy, but the sounds of
            silence pervade as Eckists quietly march in step along a very long
            and very winding road. LOL!

            Prometheus


            l2eigh wrote:

            And,why still use "Stranger by the River" and other books by PT?


            Hi Prometheus:
            It's not just this... why still publish books written by
            people who've left Eckankar or who've been asked to leave (as in the
            case of Patti Simpson)? Whether you consided this practice
            disingenuous or worse it's certainly confusing, and should be
            questionable for that reason alone.

            Leigh
          • mishmisha9
            Hi, Leigh! The word confusing is the key to keeping eckists in the org. Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the confusion. The confusion
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 16, 2005
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              Hi, Leigh!

              The word "confusing" is the key to keeping eckists in the org.
              Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the
              confusion. The confusion is justified and deemed okay because it is
              just part of the teachings. When the chela advances, he will
              understand better. Yada, yada! The confusion is just an indication
              that the chela has not advanced enough to "know." So, this validates
              the quite "normal" confusion which in turn makes the chela feel that
              all is right with the teachings in eckankar. The confusion helps to
              control those who question. As to Twitchell's books disappearing,
              well, truly eckists should wonder why they are not available now. It
              would seem that Twitchell's total writings would be of great
              interest and important to the present day teachings in eckankar.
              Certainly something is "rotten in Denmark!"

              Mish

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
              <lgrif@m...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > And,why still use "Stranger by the River" and other books by PT?
              >
              >
              > Hi Prometheus:
              > It's not just this... why still publish books
              written by
              > people who've left Eckankar or who've been asked to leave (as in
              the
              > case of Patti Simpson)? Whether you consided this practice
              disingenuous
              > or worse it's certainly confusing, and should be questionable
              for
              > that reason alone.
              >
              > Leigh
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hi Mish, It does seem strange that the founder of Eckankar (and modern day prophet/savior), Paul Twitchell, doesn t have all of his books available for sale
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 16, 2005
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                Hi Mish,

                It does seem strange that the founder of Eckankar (and modern day
                prophet/savior), Paul Twitchell, doesn't have all of his books
                available for sale from the religion that he created! Paul must be
                spinnibg in his grave, or was he cremated? How disappointed he must
                be in little Harry Klemp! All of that Eck donation money for guilted
                staircases and such, but none left to reprint the historical
                beginnings and wisdom of such an advanced spiritual path! <sigh>

                What could be the reasons for Not offering these books? Is it true
                that some of the Paul's early writings might Not "fit" perfectly
                with today's consciousness? But wouldn't Christians want to read
                every word that Jesus had spoken?! Then again, maybe some Christian
                leaders wouldn't want every thought and word of Jesus's shared with
                the world. What would these leaders fear? That the wisdom wouldn't
                apply to the modern world or that people would just be confused by
                unfiltered and unedited wisdom. Maybe the thought would be, Why
                create more confusion for people? Maybe little Harry is thinking,
                Why create more confusion for Eckists? Actually, Klemp is saving
                Eckists from the truth about Twitchell, and the scam of Eckankar.
                For Eckists, ignorance really is bliss! Besides, little Harry would
                be out of a high paying job with great perks if Eckists figured it
                all out too soon!

                Prometheus



                mishmisha wrote:

                The word "confusing" is the key to keeping eckists in the org.
                Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the
                confusion. The confusion is justified and deemed okay because it is
                just part of the teachings. When the chela advances, he will
                understand better. Yada, yada! The confusion is just an indication
                that the chela has not advanced enough to "know." So, this validates
                the quite "normal" confusion which in turn makes the chela feel that
                all is right with the teachings in eckankar. The confusion helps to
                control those who question. As to Twitchell's books disappearing,
                well, truly eckists should wonder why they are not available now. It
                would seem that Twitchell's total writings would be of great
                interest and important to the present day teachings in eckankar.
                Certainly something is "rotten in Denmark!"

                Mish
              • ctecvie
                Hello Prometheus, ... *** Little Harry wanted the temple to last till eternity - so maybe he thought some gold couldn t hurt! Perhaps he wanted to set a
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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                  Hello Prometheus,

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Mish,
                  >
                  > It does seem strange that the founder of Eckankar (and modern day
                  > prophet/savior), Paul Twitchell, doesn't have all of his books
                  > available for sale from the religion that he created! Paul must be
                  > spinnibg in his grave, or was he cremated? How disappointed he
                  >must
                  > be in little Harry Klemp! All of that Eck donation money for
                  >guilted
                  > staircases and such, but none left to reprint the historical
                  > beginnings and wisdom of such an advanced spiritual path! <sigh>

                  *** Little Harry wanted the temple to last till eternity - so maybe
                  he thought some gold couldn't hurt! Perhaps he wanted to set a
                  monument for himself, in stone, marble, gold and the like! This is
                  better as books because books can get lost quite easily -
                  discontinue them, burn them, discredit them ... whatever.

                  >
                  > What could be the reasons for Not offering these books? Is it true
                  > that some of the Paul's early writings might Not "fit" perfectly
                  > with today's consciousness? But wouldn't Christians want to read
                  > every word that Jesus had spoken?! Then again, maybe some
                  >Christian
                  > leaders wouldn't want every thought and word of Jesus's shared
                  >with
                  > the world. What would these leaders fear? That the wisdom wouldn't
                  > apply to the modern world or that people would just be confused by
                  > unfiltered and unedited wisdom. Maybe the thought would be, Why
                  > create more confusion for people? Maybe little Harry is thinking,
                  > Why create more confusion for Eckists? Actually, Klemp is saving
                  > Eckists from the truth about Twitchell, and the scam of Eckankar.
                  > For Eckists, ignorance really is bliss! Besides, little Harry
                  >would
                  > be out of a high paying job with great perks if Eckists figured it
                  > all out too soon!

                  Yeah - I think PT said things that would not be consistent with the
                  course Eckankar is steering today - and this could be embarrassing
                  for the leaders (by the way is it Little Harry Himself or rather
                  Peter Skelskey who is steering the Eckankar boat?). And imagine how
                  embarrassing it would be if suddenly the original version
                  of "Letters to Gail" came up! LOL!

                  Ingrid
                • l2eigh
                  Hi Mish: Oh, I certainly agree that confusing and confusion make up the heart of Eckankar. The dangerous thing is to settle down (accept this), to become
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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                    Hi Mish:
                    Oh, I certainly agree that "confusing" and "confusion" make
                    up the heart of Eckankar. The dangerous thing is to "settle down"
                    (accept this), to become peaceful and content, carrying this nest of
                    emptines and meaninglessness inside you.
                    Incidentally, happy holidays to you and everyone on this
                    list.

                    Leigh



                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                    <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi, Leigh!
                    >
                    > The word "confusing" is the key to keeping eckists in the org.
                    > Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the
                    > confusion. The confusion is justified and deemed okay because it
                    is
                    > just part of the teachings. When the chela advances, he will
                    > understand better. Yada, yada! The confusion is just an indication
                    > that the chela has not advanced enough to "know." So, this
                    validates
                    > the quite "normal" confusion which in turn makes the chela feel
                    that
                    > all is right with the teachings in eckankar. The confusion helps
                    to
                    > control those who question. As to Twitchell's books disappearing,
                    > well, truly eckists should wonder why they are not available now.
                    It
                    > would seem that Twitchell's total writings would be of great
                    > interest and important to the present day teachings in eckankar.
                    > Certainly something is "rotten in Denmark!"
                    >
                    > Mish
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Ingrid and All, It seems Klemp can do and say anything without having it questioned by Eckists. But, that s what has always made Eckankar a cult! Klemp
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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                      Hi Ingrid and All,
                      It seems Klemp can do and say anything without having it questioned
                      by Eckists. But, that's what has always made Eckankar a cult! Klemp
                      eliminates and edits Twitchell's original material while only
                      sharing shallow, common place, embellished, or contradicting
                      accounts of perceived "spiritual" wisdom.

                      In Klemp's 2005 EWWS talk he states, "Enthusiasm is infectious.
                      People respond. Missionary work is fun." Yet this is from a person
                      who has been employed by Eckankar for 35 years! It's been part of
                      his paid job to do missionary work. So once again... talk is a cheap
                      commodity for Little Harry. Besides, aren't Eckists supposed to be
                      neither for or against anything? Does "enthusiasm" depict detachment
                      or contentment? Or, do Eckists just demonstrate or act "as if" they
                      have enthusiasm, as well as, love in their hearts?!

                      It's funny that Klemp found out that some people at the local Unity
                      Church referred to him as "Big" Harry, and he in turn flipped that
                      to compare himself to the mythological coal mining hero of "Big"
                      John. But I see him more as the mythological thief of "Little" John
                      who helped Robin Hood to rob the rich and give to the poor. Instead,
                      however, the irony is that Klemp is not a physically large or strong
                      man as Little John was, and that Klemp steals from the poor Eckists
                      to make himself rich! Therefore, I have thus crowned Shree Klemp as
                      Little Harry!



                      Ingrid wrote:

                      Hello Prometheus,

                      Prometheus wrote:
                      It does seem strange that the founder of Eckankar (and modern day
                      prophet/savior), Paul Twitchell, doesn't have all of his books
                      available for sale from the religion that he created! Paul must be
                      spinnibg in his grave, or was he cremated? How disappointed he must
                      be in little Harry Klemp! All of that Eck donation money for guilted
                      staircases and such, but none left to reprint the historical
                      beginnings and wisdom of such an advanced spiritual path! <sigh>

                      Ingrid: Little Harry wanted the temple to last till eternity - so
                      maybe he thought some gold couldn't hurt! Perhaps he wanted to set a
                      monument for himself, in stone, marble, gold and the like! This is
                      better as books because books can get lost quite easily -
                      discontinue them, burn them, discredit them ... whatever.



                      *****I think your're correct! Klemp built a monument to himself! How
                      could any future LEM/Mahanta deny, edit, or delete this? Hmmmmm.
                      Actually, in time Klemp's material, reputation, and works could be
                      seen in its true light and easily be reduced to nothing of substance.




                      Prometheus: What could be the reasons for Not offering these books?
                      Is it true that some of the Paul's early writings might Not "fit"
                      perfectly with today's consciousness? But wouldn't Christians want
                      to read every word that Jesus had spoken?! Then again, maybe some
                      Christian leaders wouldn't want every thought and word of Jesus's
                      shared with the world. What would these leaders fear? That the
                      wisdom wouldn't apply to the modern world or that people would just
                      be confused by unfiltered and unedited wisdom. Maybe the thought
                      would be, Why create more confusion for people? Maybe little Harry
                      is thinking, Why create more confusion for Eckists? Actually, Klemp
                      is saving Eckists from the truth about Twitchell, and the scam of
                      Eckankar. For Eckists, ignorance really is bliss! Besides, little
                      Harry would be out of a high paying job with great perks if Eckists
                      figured it all out too soon!

                      Ingrid: Yeah - I think PT said things that would not be consistent
                      with the course Eckankar is steering today - and this could be
                      embarrassing for the leaders (by the way is it Little Harry Himself
                      or rather Peter Skelskey who is steering the Eckankar boat?). And
                      imagine how embarrassing it would be if suddenly the original
                      version of "Letters to Gail" came up! LOL!


                      *****It could be that Joan is doing more steering than Peter! Peter
                      is just waiting in the wings and being a yes man and lap dog for
                      now. The question for Little Harry and Joan is, Who can be trusted
                      Not to do to Klemp that Klemp did to Gross?!

                      Prometheus
                    • mishmisha9
                      Hi, Leigh! Proof of this confusion is readily seen in the posts by eckists on the non-official eck chat sites--if you care to check out Chela Chat and Hu Chat.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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                        Hi, Leigh!

                        Proof of this confusion is readily seen in the posts by eckists on
                        the non-official eck chat sites--if you care to check out Chela Chat
                        and Hu Chat. They seem to have a problem agreeing about what is
                        meant in the teachings! As for karma, eckists, instead of getting
                        rid of it, seem to rope more and more of it in, because they feel
                        they have to deal with certain situations/relationships instead of
                        saying "I pass." LOL! Many struggle hanging in unhealthy
                        relationships because they are looking for the higher meaning of it
                        all--and try to make something work that is too badly broken to
                        begin with. I believe that eckists are taught to be delusional more
                        than any other thing and this is what they are "learning from the
                        teachings!" LOL! Too bad they won't read Ford Johnson's
                        book "Confessions of a God Seeker" so that a light bulb might be
                        turned on in their muddled minds. It's really sad. This also applies
                        to those former eckists who continue to cling to the "truths" they
                        learned in eckankar--they still want to believe that they evolved
                        because of those special eck teachings! The truth is (IMO) that they
                        will not evolve until they let go of this delusional eck thinking--
                        and until they accept the fact they were duped by the
                        false/deceptive teachings in eckankar, these individuals will also
                        continue to operate in a delusional state of consciousness
                        and remain stuck, much like the eckists who remain trapped in
                        eckankar right now.

                        Happy Holidays to you too, and of course to everyone else who
                        participates by posting and/or reading here!

                        Mish

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
                        <lgrif@m...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Mish:
                        > Oh, I certainly agree that "confusing" and "confusion"
                        make
                        > up the heart of Eckankar. The dangerous thing is to "settle down"
                        > (accept this), to become peaceful and content, carrying this nest
                        of
                        > emptines and meaninglessness inside you.
                        > Incidentally, happy holidays to you and everyone on this
                        > list.
                        >
                        > Leigh
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                        > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi, Leigh!
                        > >
                        > > The word "confusing" is the key to keeping eckists in the org.
                        > > Everything is kept mysterious and secret which creates the
                        > > confusion. The confusion is justified and deemed okay because it
                        > is
                        > > just part of the teachings. When the chela advances, he will
                        > > understand better. Yada, yada! The confusion is just an
                        indication
                        > > that the chela has not advanced enough to "know." So, this
                        > validates
                        > > the quite "normal" confusion which in turn makes the chela feel
                        > that
                        > > all is right with the teachings in eckankar. The confusion helps
                        > to
                        > > control those who question. As to Twitchell's books
                        disappearing,
                        > > well, truly eckists should wonder why they are not available
                        now.
                        > It
                        > > would seem that Twitchell's total writings would be of great
                        > > interest and important to the present day teachings in eckankar.
                        > > Certainly something is "rotten in Denmark!"
                        > >
                        > > Mish
                        >
                      • ctecvie
                        Hello Mish, ... *** Today, we met an eckist who has brought quite some members to Eckankar. He is confused, too, because he has been a member for 24 years now
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 18, 2005
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                          Hello Mish,

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                          <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi, Leigh!
                          >
                          > Proof of this confusion is readily seen in the posts by eckists on
                          > the non-official eck chat sites--if you care to check out Chela
                          >Chat
                          > and Hu Chat.

                          *** Today, we met an eckist who has brought quite some members to
                          Eckankar. He is confused, too, because he has been a member for 24
                          years now and really has done more than his share - but still no 5th
                          initiation. The thing is that he isn't very complying to the
                          guidelines, has never sent in any initiation reports and such. He
                          knows that he doesn't fit and that this is why. He was excluded from
                          vahana work by the resas. He said that some months ago, he had seen
                          that a postering workshop was planned and asked himself why he was
                          not asked because that was what he had been doing for 20 years or
                          so. Well, he is still very much into the "higher/lower/master"
                          stuff, but we have given him the website address for background
                          information about Eckankar.

                          > They seem to have a problem agreeing about what is
                          > meant in the teachings! As for karma, eckists, instead of getting
                          > rid of it, seem to rope more and more of it in, because they feel
                          > they have to deal with certain situations/relationships instead of
                          > saying "I pass." LOL! Many struggle hanging in unhealthy
                          > relationships because they are looking for the higher meaning of
                          >it
                          > all--and try to make something work that is too badly broken to
                          > begin with.

                          *** That's the point - they think that they are resolving karma but
                          instead are staying in unhealthy situations because they think it
                          has to be that way. The power we have is to decide whether we want
                          to stay or leave to look for other, better circumstances to learn
                          what we have to learn. Of course we "run away" - but I firmly
                          believe that this "running away" is very often very helpful. For me
                          anyway, as this enabled me to eventually see that what I ran from
                          was in fact the same problem every time. Had I stayed where I was, I
                          never would have been able to realize this.

                          >I believe that eckists are taught to be delusional more
                          > than any other thing and this is what they are "learning from the
                          > teachings!" LOL! Too bad they won't read Ford Johnson's
                          > book "Confessions of a God Seeker" so that a light bulb might be
                          > turned on in their muddled minds. It's really sad.

                          *** The Eckist I spoke of wanted to know in one sentence what Ford's
                          book was all about. No way to tell him in one sentence! It's even
                          not possible to describe Eckankar in one sentence. I finally broke
                          it down to "I can have all the love and protection I need without
                          the mahanta".

                          >This also applies
                          > to those former eckists who continue to cling to the "truths" they
                          > learned in eckankar--they still want to believe that they evolved
                          > because of those special eck teachings! The truth is (IMO) that
                          >they
                          > will not evolve until they let go of this delusional eck thinking--
                          > and until they accept the fact they were duped by the
                          > false/deceptive teachings in eckankar, these individuals will also
                          > continue to operate in a delusional state of consciousness
                          > and remain stuck, much like the eckists who remain trapped in
                          > eckankar right now.

                          ***They are still stuck in that higher/lower thinking. Just as this
                          Eckist said that a certain tincture he is making comes from
                          the "highest and purest" source. I told him that it was highest and
                          purest because his heart was in it. So weird, at least for me, to
                          think that there is a "highest" out there whereas we can find it in
                          our own heart if we are pure and honest!
                          >
                          > Happy Holidays to you too, and of course to everyone else who
                          > participates by posting and/or reading here!

                          *** Happy Holidays to all, too!
                          Ingrid
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hi Mish, The problem that many Eckists have, with reading Ford s book Confessions, is that they are fearful of the book and believe that words which
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 18, 2005
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                            Hi Mish,

                            The problem that many Eckists have, with reading Ford's
                            book "Confessions," is that they are fearful of the book and believe
                            that words which criticize Eckankar are negative. Therefore, why
                            would someone, an Eckist, that is so pure, positive, and spiritual
                            <smile> want to expose theirself to negativity? They forget,
                            however, that negativity surrounds them and all of us, and that one
                            should not deny it exists. Negativity (conflict) is a means to
                            personal and spiritual growth... is it not?

                            Many current Eckists who have "read" Confessions of a God Seeker
                            actually did a speed read because of their fear. They feared that
                            doubt would enter their minds and that Eckankar would not be able to
                            withstand the scruntiny of truth which they have denied seeing and
                            questioning over the years. Therefore, these Eckists (and some
                            former Eckists) did a "Paul Twitchell" and skimmed Confessions, but
                            did so with a closed or semi-closed mind. People, in general, are
                            fearful of change and of having comfortable delusions and
                            rationalizations shattered. Eckankar, and religion in general, is
                            like having your own private and indestructible "spiritual" security
                            blanket. Yours keeps you safe, it's always better than the next
                            person's, you are always farther along with a personal relationship
                            with the Inner (Whatever), or can see from a higher perspective...
                            right?! This is simply how our minds (and egos) work and there are
                            those who take advantage of this.

                            Paul Twitchell was not unique when we look at history. There are
                            thousands and thousands of con men and women doing their own unique
                            scam at any given moment! This has always been the case! Some of
                            these people even have good intentions, at times, but what they sell
                            is what they can see we all want and need. Is it any wonder that
                            both financial and spiritual security (peace of mind) is such big
                            business!

                            Happy Holidays Everyone!

                            Prometheus




                            mishmisha wrote:
                            Hi Leigh,
                            Proof of this confusion is readily seen in the posts by eckists on
                            the non-official eck chat sites--if you care to check out Chela Chat
                            and Hu Chat. They seem to have a problem agreeing about what is
                            meant in the teachings! As for karma, eckists, instead of getting
                            rid of it, seem to rope more and more of it in, because they feel
                            they have to deal with certain situations/relationships instead of
                            saying "I pass." LOL!

                            Many struggle hanging in unhealthy relationships because they are
                            looking for the higher meaning of it all--and try to make something
                            work that is too badly broken to begin with. I believe that eckists
                            are taught to be delusional more than any other thing and this is
                            what they are "learning from the teachings!" LOL!

                            Too bad they won't read Ford Johnson's book "Confessions of a God
                            Seeker" so that a light bulb might be turned on in their muddled
                            minds. It's really sad. This also applies to those former eckists
                            who continue to cling to the "truths" they learned in eckankar--they
                            still want to believe that they evolved because of those special eck
                            teachings!

                            The truth is (IMO) that they will not evolve until they let go of
                            this delusional eck thinking--and until they accept the fact they
                            were duped by the false/deceptive teachings in eckankar, these
                            individuals will also continue to operate in a delusional state of
                            consciousness and remain stuck, much like the eckists who remain
                            trapped in eckankar right now.

                            Happy Holidays to you too, and of course to everyone else who
                            participates by posting and/or reading here!

                            Mish
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hi Ingrid, It seems that this Eckist doesn t understand his place in the hierarchy. Under the RESA structure one must be a team member and follow the rules
                            Message 13 of 13 , Dec 18, 2005
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                              Hi Ingrid,
                              It seems that this Eckist doesn't understand his place in the
                              hierarchy. Under the RESA structure one must be a team member and
                              follow the rules (spoken and unspoken), know the Mahanta's mission,
                              but especially comply with the written guidelines. Does he know
                              there are even guidelines for postering? I was quite an enthusiastic
                              vahana at one time, but eventually mellowed when I continuously saw
                              the overwhelming flaws. How could such flaws exist in H.I. chelas
                              and the Eckankar org if this was the highest spiritual path in all
                              of the universes of Sugmad?! This was very confusing, didn't make
                              sense, and caused me a lot of conflict! This chela (a 4th?) will
                              never be trusted with a higher initiation if he cannot work within
                              or understand the RESA structure. The standards are much stricter
                              for today's Eckists than in the past. However, this is the big
                              problem with Eckankar... all of those old timer H.I.s that reject
                              the Guidelines! I don't blame them! Eckankar has become very
                              controlling, narrow of focus, and a top heavy business (religion)!
                              And, that glass ceiling of initiation (the 7th) is starting to show
                              more cracks! LOL!

                              Prometheus


                              Ingrid wrote:

                              Today, we met an eckist who has brought quite some members to
                              Eckankar. He is confused, too, because he has been a member for 24
                              years now and really has done more than his share - but still no 5th
                              initiation. The thing is that he isn't very complying to the
                              guidelines, has never sent in any initiation reports and such. He
                              knows that he doesn't fit and that this is why. He was excluded from
                              vahana work by the resas. He said that some months ago, he had seen
                              that a postering workshop was planned and asked himself why he was
                              not asked because that was what he had been doing for 20 years or
                              so. Well, he is still very much into the "higher/lower/master"
                              stuff, but we have given him the website address for background
                              information about Eckankar.

                              The Eckist I spoke of wanted to know in one sentence what Ford's
                              book was all about. No way to tell him in one sentence! It's even
                              not possible to describe Eckankar in one sentence. I finally broke
                              it down to "I can have all the love and protection I need without
                              the mahanta".

                              They are still stuck in that higher/lower thinking. Just as this
                              Eckist said that a certain tincture he is making comes from
                              the "highest and purest" source. I told him that it was highest and
                              purest because his heart was in it. So weird, at least for me, to
                              think that there is a "highest" out there whereas we can find it in
                              our own heart if we are pure and honest!

                              Happy Holidays to all, too!

                              Ingrid
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