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Re: Twitchell's Distortions & those who defend being conned!

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  • mishmisha9
    Hi, Ingrid and All! Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to interject with a few comments! : ) Ingrid wrote: I always like what Sharon
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
      Hi, Ingrid and All!

      Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
      interject with a few comments! : )

      Ingrid wrote:
      I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
      out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
      the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
      has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

      Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
      Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
      with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
      after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
      any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
      eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
      contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
      Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
      like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
      letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
      Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
      see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
      jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.

      ######

      Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
      quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
      myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
      the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
      America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

      Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
      view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
      other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
      people who seek development outside themselves and still think
      in "higher" and "lower" planes.

      Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
      would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
      others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
      conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
      videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
      of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
      manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
      letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
      video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
      over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
      someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
      I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
      Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
      who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
      to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
      I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
      have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
      does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
      down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
      Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
      circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
      outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
      points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
      different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
      have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
      lost.

      You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
      open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
      difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
      have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
      have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
      advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
      the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
      As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
      that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
      intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
      Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
      want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
      people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
      uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
      to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
      alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
      movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
      thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
      attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
      be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
      of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
      therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
      time! : )


      ###############

      Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
      life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
      on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
      lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
      position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
      well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
      wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
      Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
      wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
      course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
      is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?

      Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
      learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
      unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )

      ############

      Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
      anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
      discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
      restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
      Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
      BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
      What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
      then everything is clear in my opinion.

      Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
      It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
      that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
      administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
      incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
      I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
      It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
      means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
      views of others.

      Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
      try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
      loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
      consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
      ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!


      Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )

      Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
      have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
      they are very important to the organization.


      Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
      that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
      more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
      brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
      out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
      not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.


      Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
      offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
      shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
      quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

      Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
      in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
      might?" Which do you choose?

      Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
      offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
      do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
      only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
      why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

      Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
      power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
      organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
      but that's only me. :-))

      Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
      problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
      eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
      Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
      I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
      I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
      organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
      have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
      stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
      confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
      manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.

      Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
      life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )

      Mish
    • Freefrom
      I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without someone imposing their ideas
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 12, 2005
        I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about
        spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without
        someone imposing their ideas onto me as some kind of dogma or teaching
        per se. AS Mish stated: "I enjoy being free to allow
        > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
        > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
        > letting It to flow naturally."

        Freefrom


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
        <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi, Ingrid and All!
        >
        > Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
        > interject with a few comments! : )
        >
        > Ingrid wrote:
        > I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
        > out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
        > the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
        > has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
        >
        > Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
        > Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
        > with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
        > after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
        > any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
        > eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
        > contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
        > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
        > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
        > letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
        > Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
        > see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
        > jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.
        >
        > ######
        >
        > Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
        > quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
        > myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
        > the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
        > America: the con of Paul Twitchell!
        >
        > Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
        > view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
        > other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
        > people who seek development outside themselves and still think
        > in "higher" and "lower" planes.
        >
        > Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
        > would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
        > others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
        > conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
        > videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
        > of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
        > manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
        > letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
        > video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
        > over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
        > someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
        > I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
        > Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
        > who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
        > to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
        > I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
        > have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
        > does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
        > down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
        > Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
        > circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
        > outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
        > points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
        > different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
        > have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
        > lost.
        >
        > You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
        > open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
        > difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
        > have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
        > have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
        > advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
        > the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
        > As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
        > that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
        > intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
        > Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
        > want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
        > people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
        > uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
        > to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
        > alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
        > movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
        > thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
        > attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
        > be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
        > of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
        > therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
        > time! : )
        >
        >
        > ###############
        >
        > Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
        > life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
        > on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
        > lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
        > position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
        > well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
        > wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
        > Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
        > wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
        > course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
        > is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
        >
        > Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
        > learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
        > unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )
        >
        > ############
        >
        > Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
        > anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
        > discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
        > restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
        > Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
        > BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
        > What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
        > then everything is clear in my opinion.
        >
        > Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
        > It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
        > that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
        > administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
        > incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
        > I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
        > It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
        > means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
        > views of others.
        >
        > Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
        > try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
        > loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
        > consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
        > ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!
        >
        >
        > Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )
        >
        > Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
        > have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
        > they are very important to the organization.
        >
        >
        > Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
        > that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
        > more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
        > brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
        > out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
        > not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.
        >
        >
        > Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
        > offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
        > shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
        > quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!
        >
        > Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
        > in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
        > might?" Which do you choose?
        >
        > Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
        > offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
        > do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
        > only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
        > why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!
        >
        > Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
        > power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
        > organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
        > but that's only me. :-))
        >
        > Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
        > problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
        > eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
        > Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
        > I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
        > I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
        > organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
        > have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
        > stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
        > confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
        > manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.
        >
        > Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
        > life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )
        >
        > Mish
        >
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