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Re: Twitchell's Distortions & those who defend being conned!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Ingrid, Just thought I d make some more comments. Thanks for the response! ctecvie wrote: Hello Prometheus and all, Prometheus wrote: ***This is very
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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      Hi Ingrid,

      Just thought I'd make some more comments. Thanks for the response!



      ctecvie wrote:

      Hello Prometheus and all,

      Prometheus wrote:
      ***This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
      and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take
      for granted such as the group consciousness of: societies;
      religions; organizations; communities.

      > ***Contemplate?? ;-)))

      Me: Well I guess "ponder" would be more accurate. I sometimes try to
      use Eck speak or their "common language" for the Eckists reading
      these postings in order to communicate better. I do emphasize with
      them and understand their frustrations as we all do. Actually, I
      struggled, somewhat, to use "contemplate." It just doesn't feel
      right anymore. LOL!

      ***Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
      together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

      > *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

      Me: Yes, HK overstates the obvious and understates everything else!

      ***there are other factors that either makes this statement true or
      inaccurate when it comes to people. Is there a collective group
      consciousness in Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual
      consciousness tuned into its own specific frequency?

      > *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
      be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
      seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
      individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
      And of what HCS is, too.

      Me: Choosing a religion is like choosing a house to live in. How far
      away is the location, what features does it have, what can I live
      with, what needs to be changed, what is the climate like, etc., etc.
      the list goes on and on. Or, maybe one can do a semi custom home or
      a custom design instead of buying a spec house. Imagination,
      illusion, and purpose are all factors. But, one still needs a nice
      lot to build upon... or not!

      ***With circles of initiation in Eckankar perhaps it is viewed that
      the higher one goes the closer one is to that perfect wave length.
      Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned into 97.3 rather than 97.1
      or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many circles of initiation and
      minor inner initiations (inbetween the recognized and final stage or
      confirmation to the major outer initiations) how can there be a true
      group consciousness?

      > *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

      Me: There are those that we have much in common with on an
      inner "spiritual" level or in Consciousness. Perhaps we are members
      of the same cluster of Souls. Those on this site have much in
      common, and there are others, elsewhere, we have much in common with
      too.

      ***However, if there is then what is the level of this group
      consciousness? Is it the total average of all members (or each
      circle?) or is it only as great as its weakest link!

      > *** The smallest denominator? :-)

      Me: It could be. People do tend to pull others down to their level
      or sometimes the awakening is that those one thought were on a lower
      level were actually on the same or higher level! Klemp via his
      deceit is definitely on a lower level of consciousness than many of
      his Eck followers!

      ***Are there different groups of consciousness and Not one Group
      Consciousness within Eckankar? If there are different groups of
      consciousness, as well as birds with individual consciousness, there
      would certainly be different "flocks of birds" within a religion or
      society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the head bird look like that brings
      all of these other flocks together... (HK!) and what makes one bird
      greater than another?

      > *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
      says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
      bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
      who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
      to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
      stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
      because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
      could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
      the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

      Me: If Klemp takes on karma for people then why do bad things happen
      to Eckists? If it's because they need the experiences then where is
      the karma that HK is supposedly taking on? I know that Klump likes
      to have it both ways, but how stupid are Eckists?! The woman that
      freaked out at the 2005 EWWS is a perfect example of no Mahanta
      protection or guidance. Where was her Mahanta? Or, is this an
      example of her learning through experience? If so, then how does
      this differ with everyone else in the world learning through their
      experiences? And, (according to Eckankar) doesn't the Kal control
      Karma and the all powerful Mahanta only steps in on occasion?!
      Eckists' brains have atrophied!

      ***Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made
      up of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
      well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
      flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
      of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
      these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
      muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
      beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
      though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
      see your true Master!

      > *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather
      pecking each other! LOL!

      Me: Yes there is a lot of that (and more!) going on within Eckankar.

      ***Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
      have leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
      higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
      he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
      defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
      knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

      > *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
      man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
      the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
      has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

      Me: It does seem like he still hangs onto some of the rituals (and
      expanding on them) like the spiritual exercises three times a day.
      There's a lot of inner focus too. Most Eckists who reject the outer
      RESA structure, EWS (ECK Worship Service), guidelines, trainings,
      Vahana/missionary work, donations, etc. focus on the inner, mostly,
      as well.

      ***B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
      of Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
      Icke; The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea;
      the con of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

      > *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ...
      you have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons
      will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who
      seek development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
      and "lower" planes.

      Me: It's good until one sees the nutty conspiracy posts along with
      the Eckists attacking people. There's just too much permissiveness
      by Ford. Even freedom requires responsibility or a safe environment
      to protect those from the irresponsible few.

      ***These are just a few of the things that they have shared on
      TS/HCS. They also plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts.
      Yet, with all of this along with their rudeness and intolerance to
      the insights of others, always needing to be right, putting others
      down for having a different POV from theirs, flattering to gain
      support, always having to have the last word, and their
      passive/aggressiveness towards Ford... Ford still gives them free
      reign as leaders on his BBs and as his HCS Canadian Representatives!
      Fascinating!!! LOL!

      > *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say!
      I can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
      pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

      Me: Yes, vanity and ego (power over others) is part of the game that
      was learned and rewarded while in Eckankar.


      ***Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
      Souls with many different points of view on various subjects. This
      is also why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks
      that if people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that
      this will help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what
      is not. But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
      Eckankar had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft,
      and the blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
      advantage over others then how does Ford think that these people are
      capable of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
      consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

      > *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as
      best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
      personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
      from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
      position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
      well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
      wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
      Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
      wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
      course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
      is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
      ---- snip ----

      Me: Well said!

      ***Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
      that it is nice to be able to share things with like minded
      individuals and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

      > *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
      here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
      just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
      course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
      why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
      beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
      bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
      is clear in my opinion.

      Me: There is censorship on TS/HCS. I've seen one of Mario's (not too
      long ago) deleted after it went up. It must have been very nasty for
      Ford to have done that! I've also seen....... in posts which
      indicate that something was removed. However, I'm more amazed at the
      passive/aggressive posts towards Ford, from Mario and keyed in by
      Betty, that Ford allows to go up! And, why does he allow B&M (his
      HCS reps) to support Twitchell and The Tiger's Fang?!

      ***However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
      members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
      and volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
      any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
      it shouldn't be!

      > *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
      brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
      are very important to the organization.

      Me: I would say that they have driven off more members (and will
      continue to) than those who have joined (if any) due to them. I
      would also question the quality (consciousness and goals) of members
      joining due to Betty and Mario's influence.

      ***Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer their
      members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
      illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
      members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

      > *** This is what comes of it ...

      Me: There are no standards, but what kind of test could there be for
      membership? Should there be a yearly review? An oversight committee?
      LOL! Eckankar probably has so many of these that just spy on people
      and project this or that as busy work and distraction for the higher
      ups to feel important to the Mahanta's mission! LOL!

      ***This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher
      quality of consciousness to their members because to do so they
      wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring
      conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS
      will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

      > ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
      really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
      achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
      me. :-))


      Me: Me too! I hope that this site is helping people to see this and
      to feel free to share their experiences and insights.

      Prometheus
    • mishmisha9
      Hi, Ingrid and All! Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to interject with a few comments! : ) Ingrid wrote: I always like what Sharon
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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        Hi, Ingrid and All!

        Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
        interject with a few comments! : )

        Ingrid wrote:
        I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
        out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
        the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
        has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

        Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
        Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
        with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
        after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
        any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
        eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
        contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
        Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
        like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
        letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
        Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
        see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
        jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.

        ######

        Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
        quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
        myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
        the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
        America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

        Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
        view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
        other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
        people who seek development outside themselves and still think
        in "higher" and "lower" planes.

        Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
        would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
        others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
        conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
        videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
        of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
        manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
        letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
        video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
        over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
        someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
        I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
        Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
        who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
        to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
        I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
        have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
        does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
        down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
        Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
        circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
        outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
        points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
        different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
        have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
        lost.

        You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
        open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
        difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
        have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
        have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
        advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
        the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
        As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
        that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
        intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
        Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
        want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
        people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
        uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
        to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
        alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
        movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
        thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
        attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
        be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
        of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
        therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
        time! : )


        ###############

        Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
        life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
        on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
        lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
        position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
        well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
        wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
        Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
        wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
        course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
        is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?

        Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
        learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
        unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )

        ############

        Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
        anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
        discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
        restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
        Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
        BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
        What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
        then everything is clear in my opinion.

        Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
        It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
        that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
        administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
        incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
        I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
        It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
        means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
        views of others.

        Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
        try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
        loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
        consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
        ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!


        Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )

        Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
        have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
        they are very important to the organization.


        Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
        that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
        more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
        brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
        out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
        not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.


        Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
        offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
        shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
        quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

        Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
        in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
        might?" Which do you choose?

        Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
        offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
        do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
        only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
        why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

        Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
        power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
        organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
        but that's only me. :-))

        Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
        problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
        eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
        Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
        I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
        I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
        organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
        have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
        stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
        confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
        manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.

        Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
        life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )

        Mish
      • Freefrom
        I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without someone imposing their ideas
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 12, 2005
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          I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about
          spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without
          someone imposing their ideas onto me as some kind of dogma or teaching
          per se. AS Mish stated: "I enjoy being free to allow
          > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
          > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
          > letting It to flow naturally."

          Freefrom


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi, Ingrid and All!
          >
          > Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
          > interject with a few comments! : )
          >
          > Ingrid wrote:
          > I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
          > out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
          > the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
          > has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
          >
          > Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
          > Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
          > with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
          > after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
          > any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
          > eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
          > contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
          > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
          > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
          > letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
          > Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
          > see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
          > jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.
          >
          > ######
          >
          > Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
          > quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
          > myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
          > the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
          > America: the con of Paul Twitchell!
          >
          > Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
          > view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
          > other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
          > people who seek development outside themselves and still think
          > in "higher" and "lower" planes.
          >
          > Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
          > would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
          > others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
          > conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
          > videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
          > of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
          > manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
          > letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
          > video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
          > over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
          > someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
          > I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
          > Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
          > who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
          > to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
          > I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
          > have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
          > does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
          > down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
          > Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
          > circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
          > outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
          > points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
          > different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
          > have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
          > lost.
          >
          > You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
          > open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
          > difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
          > have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
          > have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
          > advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
          > the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
          > As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
          > that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
          > intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
          > Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
          > want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
          > people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
          > uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
          > to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
          > alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
          > movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
          > thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
          > attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
          > be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
          > of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
          > therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
          > time! : )
          >
          >
          > ###############
          >
          > Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
          > life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
          > on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
          > lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
          > position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
          > well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
          > wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
          > Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
          > wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
          > course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
          > is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
          >
          > Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
          > learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
          > unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )
          >
          > ############
          >
          > Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
          > anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
          > discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
          > restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
          > Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
          > BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
          > What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
          > then everything is clear in my opinion.
          >
          > Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
          > It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
          > that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
          > administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
          > incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
          > I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
          > It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
          > means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
          > views of others.
          >
          > Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
          > try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
          > loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
          > consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
          > ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!
          >
          >
          > Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )
          >
          > Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
          > have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
          > they are very important to the organization.
          >
          >
          > Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
          > that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
          > more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
          > brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
          > out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
          > not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.
          >
          >
          > Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
          > offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
          > shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
          > quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!
          >
          > Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
          > in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
          > might?" Which do you choose?
          >
          > Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
          > offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
          > do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
          > only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
          > why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!
          >
          > Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
          > power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
          > organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
          > but that's only me. :-))
          >
          > Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
          > problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
          > eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
          > Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
          > I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
          > I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
          > organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
          > have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
          > stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
          > confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
          > manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.
          >
          > Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
          > life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )
          >
          > Mish
          >
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