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Twitchell's Distortions & those who defend being conned!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for granted such
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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      Hello All,

      This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think and
      contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for
      granted such as the group consciousness of: societies; religions;
      organizations; communities.

      Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
      together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!) there are other
      factors that either makes this statement true or inaccurate when it
      comes to people. Is there a collective group consciousness in
      Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual consciousness tuned into
      its own specific frequency? With circles of initiation in Eckankar
      perhaps it is viewed that the higher one goes the closer one is to
      that perfect wave length. Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned
      into 97.3 rather than 97.1 or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many
      circles of initiation and minor inner initiations (inbetween the
      recognized and final stage or confirmation to the major outer
      initiations) how can there be a true group consciousness? However,
      if there is then what is the level of this group consciousness? Is
      it the total average of all members (or each circle?) or is it only
      as great as its weakest link! Are there different groups of
      consciousness and Not one Group Consciousness within Eckankar? If
      there are different groups of consciousness, as well as birds with
      individual consciousness, there would certainly be different "flocks
      of birds" within a religion or society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the
      head bird look like that brings all of these other flocks
      together... (HK!) and what makes one bird greater than another?

      Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made up
      of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
      well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
      flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
      of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
      these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
      muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
      beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
      though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
      see your true Master!

      Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he have
      leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
      higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
      he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
      defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
      knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

      B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of
      Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke;
      The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con
      of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell! These are
      just a few of the things that they have shared on TS/HCS. They also
      plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts. Yet, with all of
      this along with their rudeness and intolerance to the insights of
      others, always needing to be right, putting others down for having a
      different POV from theirs, flattering to gain support, always having
      to have the last word, and their passive/aggressiveness towards
      Ford... Ford still gives them free reign as leaders on his BBs and
      as his HCS Canadian Representatives! Fascinating!!! LOL!

      Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved Souls
      with many different points of view on various subjects. This is also
      why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks that if
      people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that this will
      help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what is not.
      But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that Eckankar
      had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft, and the
      blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual advantage
      over others then how does Ford think that these people are capable
      of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
      consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

      This confuses me as to what kind of a "society" that Ford is
      attempting to create. The Higher Consciousness Society, for me, is
      more of an oxymoron when his "leaders" cannot exhibit even a meeting
      of the mind with Ford's own philosophy and opinions that he has
      expressed in his book! How can Ford support the views of his HCS
      leaders, unless, he also sees these beliefs as valid and true!

      Once again, we come back to the concept of group consciousness. It
      is obvious that not everyone in a group sees eye-to-eye even with
      the leader of the group let alone with other members. So, why don't
      people find a group with those they have more in common with? Or
      start their own group! People just want to belong to something it
      seems. It's like belonging to a dysfunctional (normal) family. It
      feels comfortable for each member knowing their role and having
      similar expectations which gives the feeling of security and having
      knowledge of (limited or imagined) control over life. Doesn't a
      group consciousness really offer a false sense of security and
      control over one's life?! Everyone's in agreement and the more the
      merrier! And, if everyone in the world would agree that would really
      make it so wouldn't it! Then there would be nothing to fear!

      Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit that
      it is nice to be able to share things with like minded individuals
      and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

      However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
      members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money and
      volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it any
      wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored... it
      shouldn't be! Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer
      their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
      illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
      members rather than on the quality of consciousness! This is why
      religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher quality of
      consciousness to their members because to do so they wouldn't be
      able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring conflict to
      the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS will not be for
      those seeking higher consciousness!

      Prometheus




      Freefrom wrote:

      THey seem to be defending eckankar more> than anything. It's like
      they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I'm sure klemp types
      would be very pleased with their attitude, very very pleased!
      Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck trolls posting.
      LOL


      Mish replies:

      This is what happens when there is so much permissiveness on a site
      like HCS. Ford approves all posts and is open to allowing all
      thoughts and opinions which leaves HCS as scattered and unorganized
      as a group consciousness. It also permits posters to be "nasty" to
      one another as well--so in the end, the group is not very collective
      at all. Basically, it is an organization with no central belief as
      everything is "good." It reminds me of children being allowed to do
      anything without consequences. The parents do not take
      responsibility in parenting as it is an "anything goes" belief
      system. However, in the real world, it doesn't happen that way.

      It is unfortunate that Ford cannot get his band together. His focus
      on revealing the lies and deceptions in eckankar was a good
      beginning, but it has not gone anywhere since IMO! I think people
      just need to understand how they can be easily duped by religious
      cons, and beyond that they realize it is their Higher Self that
      leads them to God-realization. They don't need eckankar or any other
      religion to take them there, and they don't need HCS to "teach" them
      how to achieve this either. : )
    • ctecvie
      Hello Prometheus and all, ... *** That s what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it should be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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        Hello Prometheus and all,

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        >
        > This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
        >and
        > contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for
        > granted such as the group consciousness of: societies; religions;
        > organizations; communities.

        ***Contemplate?? ;-)))
        >
        > Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
        > together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

        *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

        >there are other
        > factors that either makes this statement true or inaccurate when
        >it
        > comes to people. Is there a collective group consciousness in
        > Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual consciousness tuned into
        > its own specific frequency?

        *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
        be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
        seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
        individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
        And of what HCS is, too.

        >With circles of initiation in Eckankar
        > perhaps it is viewed that the higher one goes the closer one is to
        > that perfect wave length. Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned
        > into 97.3 rather than 97.1 or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many
        > circles of initiation and minor inner initiations (inbetween the
        > recognized and final stage or confirmation to the major outer
        > initiations) how can there be a true group consciousness?

        *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

        > However,
        > if there is then what is the level of this group consciousness? Is
        > it the total average of all members (or each circle?) or is it
        >only
        > as great as its weakest link!

        *** The smallest denominator? :-)

        > Are there different groups of
        > consciousness and Not one Group Consciousness within Eckankar? If
        > there are different groups of consciousness, as well as birds with
        > individual consciousness, there would certainly be
        >different "flocks
        > of birds" within a religion or society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does
        >the
        > head bird look like that brings all of these other flocks
        > together... (HK!) and what makes one bird greater than another?

        *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
        says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
        bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
        who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
        to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
        stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
        because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
        could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
        the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

        > Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made up
        > of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
        > well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
        > flock of birds with one following another. But what of other
        >flocks
        > of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
        > these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of
        >making
        > muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
        > beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
        > though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want
        >to
        > see your true Master!

        *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather pecking
        each other! LOL!
        >
        > Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
        >have
        > leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
        > higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
        > he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising
        >and
        > defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
        > knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

        *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
        man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
        the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
        has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
        >
        > B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
        >of
        > Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
        >Icke;
        > The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the
        >con
        > of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

        *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ... you
        have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons will
        follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who seek
        development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
        and "lower" planes.

        > These are
        > just a few of the things that they have shared on TS/HCS. They
        >also
        > plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts. Yet, with all of
        > this along with their rudeness and intolerance to the insights of
        > others, always needing to be right, putting others down for having
        >a
        > different POV from theirs, flattering to gain support, always
        >having
        > to have the last word, and their passive/aggressiveness towards
        > Ford... Ford still gives them free reign as leaders on his BBs and
        > as his HCS Canadian Representatives! Fascinating!!! LOL!

        *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say! I
        can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
        pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

        >
        > Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
        >Souls
        > with many different points of view on various subjects. This is
        >also
        > why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks that
        >if
        > people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that this will
        > help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what is not.
        > But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
        >Eckankar
        > had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft, and the
        > blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
        >advantage
        > over others then how does Ford think that these people are capable
        > of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
        > consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

        *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as best
        I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
        personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
        from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
        position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
        well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
        wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
        Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
        wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
        course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
        is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
        ---- snip ----

        > Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
        >that
        > it is nice to be able to share things with like minded individuals
        > and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

        *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
        here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
        just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
        course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
        why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
        beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
        bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
        is clear in my opinion.
        >
        > However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
        > members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
        >and
        > volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
        >any
        > wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
        >it
        > shouldn't be!

        *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
        brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
        are very important to the organization.

        >Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer
        > their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
        >shared
        > illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
        > members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

        *** This is what comes of it ...

        >This is why
        > religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher quality of
        > consciousness to their members because to do so they wouldn't be
        > able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring conflict
        >to
        > the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS will not be
        >for
        > those seeking higher consciousness!

        ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
        really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
        achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
        me. :-))

        Ingrid
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Ingrid, Just thought I d make some more comments. Thanks for the response! ctecvie wrote: Hello Prometheus and all, Prometheus wrote: ***This is very
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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          Hi Ingrid,

          Just thought I'd make some more comments. Thanks for the response!



          ctecvie wrote:

          Hello Prometheus and all,

          Prometheus wrote:
          ***This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
          and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take
          for granted such as the group consciousness of: societies;
          religions; organizations; communities.

          > ***Contemplate?? ;-)))

          Me: Well I guess "ponder" would be more accurate. I sometimes try to
          use Eck speak or their "common language" for the Eckists reading
          these postings in order to communicate better. I do emphasize with
          them and understand their frustrations as we all do. Actually, I
          struggled, somewhat, to use "contemplate." It just doesn't feel
          right anymore. LOL!

          ***Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
          together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

          > *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

          Me: Yes, HK overstates the obvious and understates everything else!

          ***there are other factors that either makes this statement true or
          inaccurate when it comes to people. Is there a collective group
          consciousness in Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual
          consciousness tuned into its own specific frequency?

          > *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
          be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
          seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
          individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
          And of what HCS is, too.

          Me: Choosing a religion is like choosing a house to live in. How far
          away is the location, what features does it have, what can I live
          with, what needs to be changed, what is the climate like, etc., etc.
          the list goes on and on. Or, maybe one can do a semi custom home or
          a custom design instead of buying a spec house. Imagination,
          illusion, and purpose are all factors. But, one still needs a nice
          lot to build upon... or not!

          ***With circles of initiation in Eckankar perhaps it is viewed that
          the higher one goes the closer one is to that perfect wave length.
          Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned into 97.3 rather than 97.1
          or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many circles of initiation and
          minor inner initiations (inbetween the recognized and final stage or
          confirmation to the major outer initiations) how can there be a true
          group consciousness?

          > *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

          Me: There are those that we have much in common with on an
          inner "spiritual" level or in Consciousness. Perhaps we are members
          of the same cluster of Souls. Those on this site have much in
          common, and there are others, elsewhere, we have much in common with
          too.

          ***However, if there is then what is the level of this group
          consciousness? Is it the total average of all members (or each
          circle?) or is it only as great as its weakest link!

          > *** The smallest denominator? :-)

          Me: It could be. People do tend to pull others down to their level
          or sometimes the awakening is that those one thought were on a lower
          level were actually on the same or higher level! Klemp via his
          deceit is definitely on a lower level of consciousness than many of
          his Eck followers!

          ***Are there different groups of consciousness and Not one Group
          Consciousness within Eckankar? If there are different groups of
          consciousness, as well as birds with individual consciousness, there
          would certainly be different "flocks of birds" within a religion or
          society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the head bird look like that brings
          all of these other flocks together... (HK!) and what makes one bird
          greater than another?

          > *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
          says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
          bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
          who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
          to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
          stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
          because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
          could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
          the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

          Me: If Klemp takes on karma for people then why do bad things happen
          to Eckists? If it's because they need the experiences then where is
          the karma that HK is supposedly taking on? I know that Klump likes
          to have it both ways, but how stupid are Eckists?! The woman that
          freaked out at the 2005 EWWS is a perfect example of no Mahanta
          protection or guidance. Where was her Mahanta? Or, is this an
          example of her learning through experience? If so, then how does
          this differ with everyone else in the world learning through their
          experiences? And, (according to Eckankar) doesn't the Kal control
          Karma and the all powerful Mahanta only steps in on occasion?!
          Eckists' brains have atrophied!

          ***Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made
          up of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
          well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
          flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
          of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
          these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
          muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
          beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
          though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
          see your true Master!

          > *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather
          pecking each other! LOL!

          Me: Yes there is a lot of that (and more!) going on within Eckankar.

          ***Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
          have leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
          higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
          he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
          defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
          knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

          > *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
          man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
          the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
          has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

          Me: It does seem like he still hangs onto some of the rituals (and
          expanding on them) like the spiritual exercises three times a day.
          There's a lot of inner focus too. Most Eckists who reject the outer
          RESA structure, EWS (ECK Worship Service), guidelines, trainings,
          Vahana/missionary work, donations, etc. focus on the inner, mostly,
          as well.

          ***B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
          of Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
          Icke; The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea;
          the con of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

          > *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ...
          you have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons
          will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who
          seek development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
          and "lower" planes.

          Me: It's good until one sees the nutty conspiracy posts along with
          the Eckists attacking people. There's just too much permissiveness
          by Ford. Even freedom requires responsibility or a safe environment
          to protect those from the irresponsible few.

          ***These are just a few of the things that they have shared on
          TS/HCS. They also plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts.
          Yet, with all of this along with their rudeness and intolerance to
          the insights of others, always needing to be right, putting others
          down for having a different POV from theirs, flattering to gain
          support, always having to have the last word, and their
          passive/aggressiveness towards Ford... Ford still gives them free
          reign as leaders on his BBs and as his HCS Canadian Representatives!
          Fascinating!!! LOL!

          > *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say!
          I can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
          pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

          Me: Yes, vanity and ego (power over others) is part of the game that
          was learned and rewarded while in Eckankar.


          ***Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
          Souls with many different points of view on various subjects. This
          is also why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks
          that if people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that
          this will help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what
          is not. But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
          Eckankar had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft,
          and the blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
          advantage over others then how does Ford think that these people are
          capable of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
          consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

          > *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as
          best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
          personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
          from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
          position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
          well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
          wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
          Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
          wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
          course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
          is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
          ---- snip ----

          Me: Well said!

          ***Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
          that it is nice to be able to share things with like minded
          individuals and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

          > *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
          here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
          just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
          course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
          why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
          beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
          bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
          is clear in my opinion.

          Me: There is censorship on TS/HCS. I've seen one of Mario's (not too
          long ago) deleted after it went up. It must have been very nasty for
          Ford to have done that! I've also seen....... in posts which
          indicate that something was removed. However, I'm more amazed at the
          passive/aggressive posts towards Ford, from Mario and keyed in by
          Betty, that Ford allows to go up! And, why does he allow B&M (his
          HCS reps) to support Twitchell and The Tiger's Fang?!

          ***However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
          members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
          and volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
          any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
          it shouldn't be!

          > *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
          brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
          are very important to the organization.

          Me: I would say that they have driven off more members (and will
          continue to) than those who have joined (if any) due to them. I
          would also question the quality (consciousness and goals) of members
          joining due to Betty and Mario's influence.

          ***Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer their
          members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
          illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
          members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

          > *** This is what comes of it ...

          Me: There are no standards, but what kind of test could there be for
          membership? Should there be a yearly review? An oversight committee?
          LOL! Eckankar probably has so many of these that just spy on people
          and project this or that as busy work and distraction for the higher
          ups to feel important to the Mahanta's mission! LOL!

          ***This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher
          quality of consciousness to their members because to do so they
          wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring
          conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS
          will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

          > ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
          really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
          achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
          me. :-))


          Me: Me too! I hope that this site is helping people to see this and
          to feel free to share their experiences and insights.

          Prometheus
        • mishmisha9
          Hi, Ingrid and All! Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to interject with a few comments! : ) Ingrid wrote: I always like what Sharon
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi, Ingrid and All!

            Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
            interject with a few comments! : )

            Ingrid wrote:
            I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
            out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
            the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
            has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

            Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
            Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
            with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
            after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
            any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
            eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
            contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
            Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
            like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
            letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
            Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
            see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
            jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.

            ######

            Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
            quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
            myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
            the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
            America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

            Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
            view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
            other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
            people who seek development outside themselves and still think
            in "higher" and "lower" planes.

            Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
            would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
            others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
            conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
            videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
            of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
            manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
            letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
            video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
            over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
            someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
            I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
            Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
            who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
            to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
            I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
            have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
            does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
            down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
            Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
            circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
            outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
            points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
            different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
            have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
            lost.

            You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
            open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
            difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
            have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
            have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
            advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
            the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
            As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
            that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
            intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
            Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
            want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
            people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
            uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
            to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
            alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
            movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
            thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
            attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
            be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
            of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
            therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
            time! : )


            ###############

            Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
            life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
            on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
            lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
            position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
            well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
            wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
            Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
            wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
            course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
            is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?

            Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
            learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
            unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )

            ############

            Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
            anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
            discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
            restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
            Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
            BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
            What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
            then everything is clear in my opinion.

            Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
            It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
            that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
            administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
            incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
            I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
            It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
            means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
            views of others.

            Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
            try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
            loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
            consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
            ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!


            Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )

            Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
            have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
            they are very important to the organization.


            Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
            that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
            more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
            brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
            out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
            not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.


            Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
            offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
            shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
            quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

            Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
            in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
            might?" Which do you choose?

            Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
            offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
            do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
            only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
            why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

            Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
            power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
            organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
            but that's only me. :-))

            Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
            problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
            eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
            Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
            I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
            I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
            organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
            have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
            stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
            confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
            manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.

            Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
            life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )

            Mish
          • Freefrom
            I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without someone imposing their ideas
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 12, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about
              spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without
              someone imposing their ideas onto me as some kind of dogma or teaching
              per se. AS Mish stated: "I enjoy being free to allow
              > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
              > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
              > letting It to flow naturally."

              Freefrom


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
              <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi, Ingrid and All!
              >
              > Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
              > interject with a few comments! : )
              >
              > Ingrid wrote:
              > I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
              > out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
              > the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
              > has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
              >
              > Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
              > Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
              > with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
              > after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
              > any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
              > eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
              > contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
              > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
              > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
              > letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
              > Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
              > see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
              > jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.
              >
              > ######
              >
              > Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
              > quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
              > myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
              > the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
              > America: the con of Paul Twitchell!
              >
              > Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
              > view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
              > other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
              > people who seek development outside themselves and still think
              > in "higher" and "lower" planes.
              >
              > Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
              > would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
              > others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
              > conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
              > videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
              > of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
              > manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
              > letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
              > video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
              > over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
              > someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
              > I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
              > Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
              > who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
              > to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
              > I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
              > have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
              > does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
              > down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
              > Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
              > circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
              > outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
              > points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
              > different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
              > have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
              > lost.
              >
              > You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
              > open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
              > difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
              > have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
              > have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
              > advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
              > the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
              > As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
              > that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
              > intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
              > Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
              > want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
              > people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
              > uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
              > to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
              > alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
              > movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
              > thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
              > attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
              > be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
              > of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
              > therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
              > time! : )
              >
              >
              > ###############
              >
              > Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
              > life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
              > on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
              > lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
              > position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
              > well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
              > wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
              > Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
              > wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
              > course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
              > is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
              >
              > Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
              > learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
              > unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )
              >
              > ############
              >
              > Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
              > anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
              > discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
              > restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
              > Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
              > BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
              > What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
              > then everything is clear in my opinion.
              >
              > Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
              > It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
              > that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
              > administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
              > incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
              > I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
              > It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
              > means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
              > views of others.
              >
              > Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
              > try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
              > loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
              > consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
              > ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!
              >
              >
              > Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )
              >
              > Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
              > have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
              > they are very important to the organization.
              >
              >
              > Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
              > that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
              > more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
              > brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
              > out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
              > not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.
              >
              >
              > Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
              > offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
              > shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
              > quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!
              >
              > Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
              > in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
              > might?" Which do you choose?
              >
              > Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
              > offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
              > do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
              > only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
              > why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!
              >
              > Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
              > power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
              > organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
              > but that's only me. :-))
              >
              > Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
              > problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
              > eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
              > Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
              > I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
              > I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
              > organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
              > have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
              > stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
              > confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
              > manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.
              >
              > Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
              > life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )
              >
              > Mish
              >
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