Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: The "Satsang" of Twitchell's Distortions & those who defend being conned!

Expand Messages
  • mishmisha9
    Freefrom wrote: THey seem to be defending eckankar more than anything. It s like they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I m sure klemp types would be
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Freefrom wrote:

      THey seem to be defending eckankar more> than anything. It's like
      they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I'm sure klemp types
      would be very pleased with their attitude, very very pleased!
      Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck trolls posting.
      LOL
      >
      > Freefrom
      >


      Mish replies:

      This is what happens when there is so much permissiveness on a site
      like HCS. Ford approves all posts and is open to allowing all
      thoughts and opinions which leaves HCS as scattered and unorganized
      as a group consciousness. It also permits posters to be "nasty" to
      one another as well--so in the end, the group is not very collective
      at all. Basically, it is an organization with no central belief as
      everything is "good." It reminds me of children being allowed to do
      anything without consequences. The parents do not take
      responsibility in parenting as it is an "anything goes" belief
      system. However, in the real world, it doesn't happen that way.

      It is unfortunate that Ford cannot get his band together. His focus
      on revealing the lies and deceptions in eckankar was a good
      beginning, but it has not gone anywhere since IMO! I think people
      just need to understand how they can be easily duped by religious
      cons, and beyond that they realize it is their Higher Self that
      leads them to God-realization. They don't need eckankar or any other
      religion to take them there, and they don't need HCS to "teach" them
      how to achieve this either. : )

      Mish
    • prometheus_973
      Hello All, This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for granted such
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello All,

        This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think and
        contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for
        granted such as the group consciousness of: societies; religions;
        organizations; communities.

        Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
        together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!) there are other
        factors that either makes this statement true or inaccurate when it
        comes to people. Is there a collective group consciousness in
        Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual consciousness tuned into
        its own specific frequency? With circles of initiation in Eckankar
        perhaps it is viewed that the higher one goes the closer one is to
        that perfect wave length. Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned
        into 97.3 rather than 97.1 or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many
        circles of initiation and minor inner initiations (inbetween the
        recognized and final stage or confirmation to the major outer
        initiations) how can there be a true group consciousness? However,
        if there is then what is the level of this group consciousness? Is
        it the total average of all members (or each circle?) or is it only
        as great as its weakest link! Are there different groups of
        consciousness and Not one Group Consciousness within Eckankar? If
        there are different groups of consciousness, as well as birds with
        individual consciousness, there would certainly be different "flocks
        of birds" within a religion or society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the
        head bird look like that brings all of these other flocks
        together... (HK!) and what makes one bird greater than another?

        Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made up
        of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
        well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
        flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
        of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
        these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
        muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
        beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
        though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
        see your true Master!

        Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he have
        leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
        higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
        he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
        defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
        knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

        B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of
        Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke;
        The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con
        of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell! These are
        just a few of the things that they have shared on TS/HCS. They also
        plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts. Yet, with all of
        this along with their rudeness and intolerance to the insights of
        others, always needing to be right, putting others down for having a
        different POV from theirs, flattering to gain support, always having
        to have the last word, and their passive/aggressiveness towards
        Ford... Ford still gives them free reign as leaders on his BBs and
        as his HCS Canadian Representatives! Fascinating!!! LOL!

        Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved Souls
        with many different points of view on various subjects. This is also
        why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks that if
        people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that this will
        help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what is not.
        But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that Eckankar
        had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft, and the
        blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual advantage
        over others then how does Ford think that these people are capable
        of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
        consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

        This confuses me as to what kind of a "society" that Ford is
        attempting to create. The Higher Consciousness Society, for me, is
        more of an oxymoron when his "leaders" cannot exhibit even a meeting
        of the mind with Ford's own philosophy and opinions that he has
        expressed in his book! How can Ford support the views of his HCS
        leaders, unless, he also sees these beliefs as valid and true!

        Once again, we come back to the concept of group consciousness. It
        is obvious that not everyone in a group sees eye-to-eye even with
        the leader of the group let alone with other members. So, why don't
        people find a group with those they have more in common with? Or
        start their own group! People just want to belong to something it
        seems. It's like belonging to a dysfunctional (normal) family. It
        feels comfortable for each member knowing their role and having
        similar expectations which gives the feeling of security and having
        knowledge of (limited or imagined) control over life. Doesn't a
        group consciousness really offer a false sense of security and
        control over one's life?! Everyone's in agreement and the more the
        merrier! And, if everyone in the world would agree that would really
        make it so wouldn't it! Then there would be nothing to fear!

        Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit that
        it is nice to be able to share things with like minded individuals
        and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

        However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
        members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money and
        volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it any
        wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored... it
        shouldn't be! Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer
        their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
        illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
        members rather than on the quality of consciousness! This is why
        religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher quality of
        consciousness to their members because to do so they wouldn't be
        able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring conflict to
        the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS will not be for
        those seeking higher consciousness!

        Prometheus




        Freefrom wrote:

        THey seem to be defending eckankar more> than anything. It's like
        they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I'm sure klemp types
        would be very pleased with their attitude, very very pleased!
        Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck trolls posting.
        LOL


        Mish replies:

        This is what happens when there is so much permissiveness on a site
        like HCS. Ford approves all posts and is open to allowing all
        thoughts and opinions which leaves HCS as scattered and unorganized
        as a group consciousness. It also permits posters to be "nasty" to
        one another as well--so in the end, the group is not very collective
        at all. Basically, it is an organization with no central belief as
        everything is "good." It reminds me of children being allowed to do
        anything without consequences. The parents do not take
        responsibility in parenting as it is an "anything goes" belief
        system. However, in the real world, it doesn't happen that way.

        It is unfortunate that Ford cannot get his band together. His focus
        on revealing the lies and deceptions in eckankar was a good
        beginning, but it has not gone anywhere since IMO! I think people
        just need to understand how they can be easily duped by religious
        cons, and beyond that they realize it is their Higher Self that
        leads them to God-realization. They don't need eckankar or any other
        religion to take them there, and they don't need HCS to "teach" them
        how to achieve this either. : )
      • ctecvie
        Hello Prometheus and all, ... *** That s what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it should be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Prometheus and all,

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello All,
          >
          > This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
          >and
          > contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for
          > granted such as the group consciousness of: societies; religions;
          > organizations; communities.

          ***Contemplate?? ;-)))
          >
          > Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
          > together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

          *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

          >there are other
          > factors that either makes this statement true or inaccurate when
          >it
          > comes to people. Is there a collective group consciousness in
          > Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual consciousness tuned into
          > its own specific frequency?

          *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
          be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
          seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
          individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
          And of what HCS is, too.

          >With circles of initiation in Eckankar
          > perhaps it is viewed that the higher one goes the closer one is to
          > that perfect wave length. Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned
          > into 97.3 rather than 97.1 or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many
          > circles of initiation and minor inner initiations (inbetween the
          > recognized and final stage or confirmation to the major outer
          > initiations) how can there be a true group consciousness?

          *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

          > However,
          > if there is then what is the level of this group consciousness? Is
          > it the total average of all members (or each circle?) or is it
          >only
          > as great as its weakest link!

          *** The smallest denominator? :-)

          > Are there different groups of
          > consciousness and Not one Group Consciousness within Eckankar? If
          > there are different groups of consciousness, as well as birds with
          > individual consciousness, there would certainly be
          >different "flocks
          > of birds" within a religion or society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does
          >the
          > head bird look like that brings all of these other flocks
          > together... (HK!) and what makes one bird greater than another?

          *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
          says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
          bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
          who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
          to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
          stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
          because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
          could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
          the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

          > Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made up
          > of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
          > well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
          > flock of birds with one following another. But what of other
          >flocks
          > of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
          > these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of
          >making
          > muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
          > beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
          > though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want
          >to
          > see your true Master!

          *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather pecking
          each other! LOL!
          >
          > Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
          >have
          > leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
          > higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
          > he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising
          >and
          > defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
          > knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

          *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
          man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
          the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
          has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
          >
          > B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
          >of
          > Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
          >Icke;
          > The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the
          >con
          > of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

          *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ... you
          have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons will
          follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who seek
          development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
          and "lower" planes.

          > These are
          > just a few of the things that they have shared on TS/HCS. They
          >also
          > plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts. Yet, with all of
          > this along with their rudeness and intolerance to the insights of
          > others, always needing to be right, putting others down for having
          >a
          > different POV from theirs, flattering to gain support, always
          >having
          > to have the last word, and their passive/aggressiveness towards
          > Ford... Ford still gives them free reign as leaders on his BBs and
          > as his HCS Canadian Representatives! Fascinating!!! LOL!

          *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say! I
          can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
          pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

          >
          > Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
          >Souls
          > with many different points of view on various subjects. This is
          >also
          > why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks that
          >if
          > people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that this will
          > help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what is not.
          > But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
          >Eckankar
          > had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft, and the
          > blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
          >advantage
          > over others then how does Ford think that these people are capable
          > of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
          > consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

          *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as best
          I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
          personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
          from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
          position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
          well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
          wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
          Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
          wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
          course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
          is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
          ---- snip ----

          > Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
          >that
          > it is nice to be able to share things with like minded individuals
          > and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

          *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
          here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
          just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
          course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
          why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
          beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
          bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
          is clear in my opinion.
          >
          > However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
          > members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
          >and
          > volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
          >any
          > wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
          >it
          > shouldn't be!

          *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
          brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
          are very important to the organization.

          >Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer
          > their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
          >shared
          > illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
          > members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

          *** This is what comes of it ...

          >This is why
          > religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher quality of
          > consciousness to their members because to do so they wouldn't be
          > able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring conflict
          >to
          > the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS will not be
          >for
          > those seeking higher consciousness!

          ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
          really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
          achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
          me. :-))

          Ingrid
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Ingrid, Just thought I d make some more comments. Thanks for the response! ctecvie wrote: Hello Prometheus and all, Prometheus wrote: ***This is very
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Ingrid,

            Just thought I'd make some more comments. Thanks for the response!



            ctecvie wrote:

            Hello Prometheus and all,

            Prometheus wrote:
            ***This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
            and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take
            for granted such as the group consciousness of: societies;
            religions; organizations; communities.

            > ***Contemplate?? ;-)))

            Me: Well I guess "ponder" would be more accurate. I sometimes try to
            use Eck speak or their "common language" for the Eckists reading
            these postings in order to communicate better. I do emphasize with
            them and understand their frustrations as we all do. Actually, I
            struggled, somewhat, to use "contemplate." It just doesn't feel
            right anymore. LOL!

            ***Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
            together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

            > *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

            Me: Yes, HK overstates the obvious and understates everything else!

            ***there are other factors that either makes this statement true or
            inaccurate when it comes to people. Is there a collective group
            consciousness in Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual
            consciousness tuned into its own specific frequency?

            > *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
            be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
            seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
            individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
            And of what HCS is, too.

            Me: Choosing a religion is like choosing a house to live in. How far
            away is the location, what features does it have, what can I live
            with, what needs to be changed, what is the climate like, etc., etc.
            the list goes on and on. Or, maybe one can do a semi custom home or
            a custom design instead of buying a spec house. Imagination,
            illusion, and purpose are all factors. But, one still needs a nice
            lot to build upon... or not!

            ***With circles of initiation in Eckankar perhaps it is viewed that
            the higher one goes the closer one is to that perfect wave length.
            Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned into 97.3 rather than 97.1
            or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many circles of initiation and
            minor inner initiations (inbetween the recognized and final stage or
            confirmation to the major outer initiations) how can there be a true
            group consciousness?

            > *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

            Me: There are those that we have much in common with on an
            inner "spiritual" level or in Consciousness. Perhaps we are members
            of the same cluster of Souls. Those on this site have much in
            common, and there are others, elsewhere, we have much in common with
            too.

            ***However, if there is then what is the level of this group
            consciousness? Is it the total average of all members (or each
            circle?) or is it only as great as its weakest link!

            > *** The smallest denominator? :-)

            Me: It could be. People do tend to pull others down to their level
            or sometimes the awakening is that those one thought were on a lower
            level were actually on the same or higher level! Klemp via his
            deceit is definitely on a lower level of consciousness than many of
            his Eck followers!

            ***Are there different groups of consciousness and Not one Group
            Consciousness within Eckankar? If there are different groups of
            consciousness, as well as birds with individual consciousness, there
            would certainly be different "flocks of birds" within a religion or
            society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the head bird look like that brings
            all of these other flocks together... (HK!) and what makes one bird
            greater than another?

            > *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
            says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
            bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
            who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
            to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
            stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
            because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
            could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
            the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

            Me: If Klemp takes on karma for people then why do bad things happen
            to Eckists? If it's because they need the experiences then where is
            the karma that HK is supposedly taking on? I know that Klump likes
            to have it both ways, but how stupid are Eckists?! The woman that
            freaked out at the 2005 EWWS is a perfect example of no Mahanta
            protection or guidance. Where was her Mahanta? Or, is this an
            example of her learning through experience? If so, then how does
            this differ with everyone else in the world learning through their
            experiences? And, (according to Eckankar) doesn't the Kal control
            Karma and the all powerful Mahanta only steps in on occasion?!
            Eckists' brains have atrophied!

            ***Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made
            up of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
            well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
            flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
            of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
            these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
            muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
            beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
            though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
            see your true Master!

            > *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather
            pecking each other! LOL!

            Me: Yes there is a lot of that (and more!) going on within Eckankar.

            ***Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
            have leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
            higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
            he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
            defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
            knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

            > *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
            man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
            the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
            has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

            Me: It does seem like he still hangs onto some of the rituals (and
            expanding on them) like the spiritual exercises three times a day.
            There's a lot of inner focus too. Most Eckists who reject the outer
            RESA structure, EWS (ECK Worship Service), guidelines, trainings,
            Vahana/missionary work, donations, etc. focus on the inner, mostly,
            as well.

            ***B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
            of Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
            Icke; The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea;
            the con of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

            > *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ...
            you have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons
            will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who
            seek development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
            and "lower" planes.

            Me: It's good until one sees the nutty conspiracy posts along with
            the Eckists attacking people. There's just too much permissiveness
            by Ford. Even freedom requires responsibility or a safe environment
            to protect those from the irresponsible few.

            ***These are just a few of the things that they have shared on
            TS/HCS. They also plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts.
            Yet, with all of this along with their rudeness and intolerance to
            the insights of others, always needing to be right, putting others
            down for having a different POV from theirs, flattering to gain
            support, always having to have the last word, and their
            passive/aggressiveness towards Ford... Ford still gives them free
            reign as leaders on his BBs and as his HCS Canadian Representatives!
            Fascinating!!! LOL!

            > *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say!
            I can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
            pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

            Me: Yes, vanity and ego (power over others) is part of the game that
            was learned and rewarded while in Eckankar.


            ***Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
            Souls with many different points of view on various subjects. This
            is also why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks
            that if people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that
            this will help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what
            is not. But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
            Eckankar had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft,
            and the blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
            advantage over others then how does Ford think that these people are
            capable of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
            consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

            > *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as
            best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
            personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
            from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
            position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
            well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
            wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
            Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
            wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
            course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
            is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
            ---- snip ----

            Me: Well said!

            ***Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
            that it is nice to be able to share things with like minded
            individuals and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

            > *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
            here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
            just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
            course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
            why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
            beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
            bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
            is clear in my opinion.

            Me: There is censorship on TS/HCS. I've seen one of Mario's (not too
            long ago) deleted after it went up. It must have been very nasty for
            Ford to have done that! I've also seen....... in posts which
            indicate that something was removed. However, I'm more amazed at the
            passive/aggressive posts towards Ford, from Mario and keyed in by
            Betty, that Ford allows to go up! And, why does he allow B&M (his
            HCS reps) to support Twitchell and The Tiger's Fang?!

            ***However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
            members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
            and volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
            any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
            it shouldn't be!

            > *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
            brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
            are very important to the organization.

            Me: I would say that they have driven off more members (and will
            continue to) than those who have joined (if any) due to them. I
            would also question the quality (consciousness and goals) of members
            joining due to Betty and Mario's influence.

            ***Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer their
            members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
            illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
            members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

            > *** This is what comes of it ...

            Me: There are no standards, but what kind of test could there be for
            membership? Should there be a yearly review? An oversight committee?
            LOL! Eckankar probably has so many of these that just spy on people
            and project this or that as busy work and distraction for the higher
            ups to feel important to the Mahanta's mission! LOL!

            ***This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher
            quality of consciousness to their members because to do so they
            wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring
            conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS
            will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

            > ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
            really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
            achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
            me. :-))


            Me: Me too! I hope that this site is helping people to see this and
            to feel free to share their experiences and insights.

            Prometheus
          • mishmisha9
            Hi, Ingrid and All! Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to interject with a few comments! : ) Ingrid wrote: I always like what Sharon
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi, Ingrid and All!

              Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
              interject with a few comments! : )

              Ingrid wrote:
              I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
              out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
              the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
              has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

              Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
              Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
              with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
              after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
              any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
              eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
              contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
              Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
              like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
              letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
              Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
              see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
              jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.

              ######

              Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
              quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
              myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
              the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
              America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

              Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
              view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
              other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
              people who seek development outside themselves and still think
              in "higher" and "lower" planes.

              Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
              would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
              others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
              conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
              videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
              of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
              manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
              letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
              video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
              over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
              someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
              I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
              Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
              who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
              to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
              I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
              have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
              does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
              down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
              Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
              circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
              outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
              points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
              different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
              have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
              lost.

              You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
              open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
              difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
              have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
              have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
              advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
              the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
              As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
              that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
              intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
              Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
              want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
              people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
              uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
              to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
              alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
              movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
              thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
              attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
              be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
              of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
              therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
              time! : )


              ###############

              Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
              life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
              on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
              lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
              position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
              well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
              wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
              Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
              wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
              course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
              is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?

              Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
              learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
              unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )

              ############

              Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
              anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
              discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
              restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
              Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
              BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
              What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
              then everything is clear in my opinion.

              Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
              It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
              that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
              administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
              incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
              I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
              It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
              means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
              views of others.

              Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
              try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
              loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
              consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
              ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!


              Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )

              Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
              have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
              they are very important to the organization.


              Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
              that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
              more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
              brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
              out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
              not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.


              Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
              offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
              shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
              quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

              Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
              in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
              might?" Which do you choose?

              Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
              offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
              do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
              only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
              why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

              Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
              power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
              organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
              but that's only me. :-))

              Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
              problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
              eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
              Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
              I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
              I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
              organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
              have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
              stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
              confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
              manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.

              Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
              life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )

              Mish
            • Freefrom
              I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without someone imposing their ideas
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 12, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about
                spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without
                someone imposing their ideas onto me as some kind of dogma or teaching
                per se. AS Mish stated: "I enjoy being free to allow
                > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                > letting It to flow naturally."

                Freefrom


                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi, Ingrid and All!
                >
                > Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
                > interject with a few comments! : )
                >
                > Ingrid wrote:
                > I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
                > out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                > the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                > has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
                >
                > Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
                > Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
                > with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
                > after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
                > any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
                > eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
                > contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
                > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                > letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
                > Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
                > see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
                > jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.
                >
                > ######
                >
                > Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
                > quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
                > myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
                > the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
                > America: the con of Paul Twitchell!
                >
                > Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
                > view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
                > other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
                > people who seek development outside themselves and still think
                > in "higher" and "lower" planes.
                >
                > Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
                > would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
                > others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
                > conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
                > videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
                > of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
                > manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
                > letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
                > video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
                > over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
                > someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
                > I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
                > Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
                > who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
                > to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
                > I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
                > have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
                > does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
                > down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
                > Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
                > circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
                > outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
                > points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
                > different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
                > have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
                > lost.
                >
                > You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
                > open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
                > difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
                > have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
                > have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
                > advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
                > the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
                > As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
                > that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
                > intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
                > Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
                > want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
                > people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
                > uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
                > to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
                > alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
                > movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
                > thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
                > attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
                > be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
                > of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
                > therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
                > time! : )
                >
                >
                > ###############
                >
                > Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
                > life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
                > on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
                > lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                > position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                > well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                > wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                > Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                > wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                > course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                > is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                >
                > Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
                > learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
                > unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )
                >
                > ############
                >
                > Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
                > anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
                > discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
                > restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
                > Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
                > BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
                > What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
                > then everything is clear in my opinion.
                >
                > Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
                > It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
                > that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
                > administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
                > incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
                > I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
                > It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
                > means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
                > views of others.
                >
                > Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
                > try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
                > loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
                > consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
                > ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!
                >
                >
                > Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )
                >
                > Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
                > have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
                > they are very important to the organization.
                >
                >
                > Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
                > that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
                > more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
                > brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
                > out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
                > not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.
                >
                >
                > Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
                > offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                > shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
                > quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!
                >
                > Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
                > in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
                > might?" Which do you choose?
                >
                > Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
                > offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
                > do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
                > only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
                > why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!
                >
                > Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
                > power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
                > organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
                > but that's only me. :-))
                >
                > Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
                > problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
                > eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
                > Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
                > I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
                > I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
                > organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
                > have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
                > stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
                > confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
                > manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.
                >
                > Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
                > life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )
                >
                > Mish
                >
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.