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Re: The "Satsang" of Twitchell's Distortions

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  • mishmisha9
    Mish wrote: There is nothing spiritual about misleading people and giving them false hope. :( Prometheus replied: ***True! When I first discovered Eckankar I
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 7, 2005
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      Mish wrote:
      There is nothing spiritual about
      misleading people and giving them false hope. :(

      Prometheus replied:
      ***True! When I first discovered Eckankar I thought it was an
      advanced path because of the detailed explanations I got in regards
      to karma. However, these details of karma are all found in
      Twichell's reference book, "The Path of the Masters." What was
      funny, when I first joined, I was having more Spiritual experiences
      and dreams than were the long time Eckists! Of course, they said
      that they had the guidance and protection of the Mahanta and that
      was supposed to mean something I guess. Christians think they have
      the guidance and protection of Jesus! WOW! Living masters, like
      Popes, really make a difference! LOL! Why didn't we Eckists learn
      from the past deceptions of other religions? I know! It was because
      Eckankar was Not a religion! It was a Spiritual Path and the most
      direct one to God-Realization! We knew this because this is what we
      were told and why would anyone lie to us? Did our former religions
      lie to us? Why did we trust them... because our parents did! Now we
      can see the trap can't we... we trusted that Eckankar was different
      and Not even a religion!

      Mish: It is interesting how Eckankar is claimed to be ancient wisdom
      for today, which supposedly resurfaced when Twitch made it up in
      1965. LOL! Eckankar is advertised as the most direct path to God and
      thus, this claim pulls people in--individuals who do not want to
      miss the opportunity to achieve God-realization in this lifetime. It
      seems harmless at first, but looking at the modern history of
      eckankar, one can see how it has become more demanding and more
      controlling over time, especially under the leadership of Klemp who
      set up the RESA structure to keep chelas behaving and working for
      him. Klemp has even turned eckankar from a spiritual path into a
      religion which resembles his Luthern background/education. Making
      eckankar a religion also makes it tax exempt, and since the temple
      is in Minnesota, it's accounts/bookkeeping are not available for
      public scrutiny--it is all so very conveniently secretive.

      IMO, religions are just orgs that many people feel comfortable to
      hold onto. They don't want to go it alone, so they hook up with a
      group, surrendering their spiritual freedom. How many times have we
      as eckists heard the oft repeated word "surrender?" Eckists are
      taught to surrender, to surrender to the mahanta, etc. What does
      surrender mean in truth? Webster's dictionary defines it as
      this: "to give oneself up, as into the power of another; submit or
      yield. . ."

      Now, why in the world would anyone want to surrender--isn't it much
      better to never give up and to never surrender! When you surrender,
      you give up control of yourself and possibly your destiny.

      I keep reading comments by eckists and former eckists who continue
      to believe that they learned so much from the eckankar experience.
      Some "idiot" former eckists even believe that those who continue to
      point out the lies and deceptions in eckankar in such a forum as
      this one are angry individuals who cannot move on with life. This is
      so far from the truth. I'm not angry--I just feel an obligation to
      keep the real truth about eckankar exposed so that others who are in
      the org might take the step to leave, and it might keep newbies from
      joining. Eckankar is not a necessary adventure and its teachings do
      not contain anything special for anyone who's been there to need to
      give thanks for or value it. Whatever one has learned about
      spiritual matters while participating in eckankar has been despite
      the trappings of eckankar. I think it is so foolish for an
      individual, as I read recently on HCS, to state that those of us who
      are sharing the negative truths about eckankar did not learn
      anything from the teachings, stating this as though learning nothing
      from the eck teachings is a terrible thing. LOL! Well, I did learn
      some things about eckankar--I learned about lies, I learned about
      ego driven people who like to control others, and I learned what a
      waste of time it is, among other things. I think it is unfortunate
      that some former eckists still want to cling to the teachings of
      eckankar, to continue to praise Paul Twitchell and quote him, and
      even HK, etc. It seems to me that these individuals have not learned
      much and certainly remain stuck. I really wonder if these former
      eckists are regretting that they left and would like to return--of
      course, if they could go back into the org with their former H.I.
      initiations intact--but of course, that would never happen as HK has
      clearly stated in a recent Mystic World Wisdom Note that someone
      returning would lose all levels of initiations and be put back as a
      first initiate. Then, one would have to wonder if one would even
      progress from there--I'm sure the shunning and black balling would
      be all so obvious. I don't believe that eckists would welcome
      such "traitors" back with open arms! But I suppose if you hang
      around in new groups and believe that eckankar was a necessary
      stepping stone to greater consciousness, one would be delusional
      enough to think the eck initiations have not been lost at all, and
      one has risen even higher--way above the rest of the spiritual
      seekers--and one would feel very lofty indeed. One might even think
      that they are in a more joyful place than say those of us who keep
      on with a responsibility of calling eckankar for what it is, a fraud
      and deceiver of faith. : ) IMO, no one has gone beyond or even left
      eckankar when one continues to praise its teachings. One has not
      learned that those teachings were full of lies and deceptions which
      actually took the spiritual seeker off his path to God rather than
      showing a more direct route!

      Mish
    • prometheus_973
      I agree with Mish that Eckists like Klemp s cohorts on HU-Chat and Chela-Chat or Ruben and other subversive/undercover double agent Eckists, and some former
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 8, 2005
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        I agree with Mish that Eckists like Klemp's cohorts on HU-Chat and
        Chela-Chat or Ruben and other subversive/undercover double agent
        Eckists, and some former Eckists (who in essence do the same), such
        as Mario & Betty, on TS/HCS, all continue to mislead people with the
        Eck-and-Twitch-crap. I really wonder just how far Ford can take his
        Great Work (Teachings) with the likes of B&M! Not far is my guess
        since he has had them with him from the beginning. However, I really
        wonder what qualifies Ford as a better teacher than I AM for MySelf
        or for anyone?!

        Prometheus




        Mish wrote:
        There is nothing spiritual about misleading people and giving them
        false hope. :(

        I keep reading comments by eckists and former eckists who continue
        to believe that they learned so much from the eckankar experience.
        Some "idiot" former eckists even believe that those who continue to
        point out the lies and deceptions in eckankar in such a forum as
        this one are angry individuals who cannot move on with life. This is
        so far from the truth. I'm not angry--I just feel an obligation to
        keep the real truth about eckankar exposed so that others who are in
        the org might take the step to leave, and it might keep newbies from
        joining. Eckankar is not a necessary adventure and its teachings do
        not contain anything special for anyone who's been there to need to
        give thanks for or value it. Whatever one has learned about
        spiritual matters while participating in eckankar has been despite
        the trappings of eckankar.

        I think it is so foolish for an individual, as I read recently on
        HCS, to state that those of us who are sharing the negative truths
        about eckankar did not learn anything from the teachings, stating
        this as though learning nothing from the eck teachings is a terrible
        thing. LOL! Well, I did learn some things about eckankar--I learned
        about lies, I learned about ego driven people who like to control
        others, and I learned what a waste of time it is, among other
        things. I think it is unfortunate that some former eckists still
        want to cling to the teachings of eckankar, to continue to praise
        Paul Twitchell and quote him, and even HK, etc. It seems to me that
        these individuals have not learned much and certainly remain stuck.

        I really wonder if these former eckists are regretting that they
        left and would like to return--of course, if they could go back into
        the org with their former H.I. initiations intact--but of course,
        that would never happen as HK has clearly stated in a recent Mystic
        World Wisdom Note that someone returning would lose all levels of
        initiations and be put back as a first initiate. Then, one would
        have to wonder if one would even progress from there--I'm sure the
        shunning and black balling would be all so obvious. I don't believe
        that eckists would welcome such "traitors" back with open arms!

        But I suppose if you hang around in new groups and believe that
        eckankar was a necessary stepping stone to greater consciousness,
        one would be delusional enough to think the eck initiations have not
        been lost at all, and one has risen even higher--way above the rest
        of the spiritual seekers--and one would feel very lofty indeed. One
        might even think that they are in a more joyful place than say those
        of us who keep on with a responsibility of calling eckankar for what
        it is, a fraud and deceiver of faith. : )

        IMO, no one has gone beyond or even left eckankar when one continues
        to praise its teachings. One has not learned that those teachings
        were full of lies and deceptions which actually took the spiritual
        seeker off his path to God rather than showing a more direct route!

        Mish
      • Freefrom
        Hi mish and all, Yes I read some similar posts at HCS, maybe the same ones, about how those who critisize eckankar supposedly did not learn what they were
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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          Hi mish and all,

          Yes I read some similar posts at HCS, maybe the same ones, about how
          those who critisize eckankar supposedly did not learn what they were
          supposed to have learned from the Kult, and that is to remain silent.
          I can only guess as to what they are talking about. Why are they so
          defensive about eckankult? It is almost as if they are saying that
          they really enjoyed and learned a lot from the spiritual abuse they
          got. Spiritual abuse is therefore a necessary step toward spiritual
          enlightenment? People who really believe this, IMO, will be more
          likely to feel justified in abusing others in a similar way that they
          were abused. I say watch out and run away as fast as you can from such
          persons who probably have con tendencies, that is they are dishonest.
          They would probably think it is also just fine to pay a whore to
          sexually abuse them as well! Maybe some whips and chains,etc.lol THis
          is crap. As far as I can tell, they are still eckists. They would be
          better off to just admit it. As far as being angry, so what, but it is
          more annoying than anything. THey seem to be defending eckankar more
          than anything. It's like they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour.
          I'm sure klemp types would be very pleased with their attitude, very
          very pleased! Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck
          trolls posting. LOL

          Freefrom

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
          >
          ................snip

          I keep reading comments by eckists and former eckists who continue
          to believe that they learned so much from the eckankar experience.
          Some "idiot" former eckists even believe that those who continue to
          point out the lies and deceptions in eckankar in such a forum as
          this one are angry individuals who cannot move on with life. This is
          so far from the truth. I'm not angry--I just feel an obligation to
          keep the real truth about eckankar exposed so that others who are in
          the org might take the step to leave, and it might keep newbies from
          joining. Eckankar is not a necessary adventure and its teachings do
          not contain anything special for anyone who's been there to need to
          give thanks for or value it. Whatever one has learned about
          spiritual matters while participating in eckankar has been despite
          the trappings of eckankar. I think it is so foolish for an
          individual, as I read recently on HCS, to state that those of us who
          are sharing the negative truths about eckankar did not learn
          anything from the teachings, stating this as though learning nothing
          from the eck teachings is a terrible thing. LOL! Well, I did learn
          some things about eckankar--I learned about lies, I learned about
          ego driven people who like to control others, and I learned what a
          waste of time it is, among other things. I think it is unfortunate
          that some former eckists still want to cling to the teachings of
          eckankar, to continue to praise Paul Twitchell and quote him, and
          even HK, etc. It seems to me that these individuals have not learned
          much and certainly remain stuck. I really wonder if these former
          eckists are regretting that they left and would like to return--of
          course, if they could go back into the org with their former H.I.
          initiations intact--but of course, that would never happen as HK has
          clearly stated in a recent Mystic World Wisdom Note that someone
          returning would lose all levels of initiations and be put back as a
          first initiate. Then, one would have to wonder if one would even
          progress from there--I'm sure the shunning and black balling would
          be all so obvious. I don't believe that eckists would welcome
          such "traitors" back with open arms! But I suppose if you hang
          around in new groups and believe that eckankar was a necessary
          stepping stone to greater consciousness, one would be delusional
          enough to think the eck initiations have not been lost at all, and
          one has risen even higher--way above the rest of the spiritual
          seekers--and one would feel very lofty indeed. One might even think
          that they are in a more joyful place than say those of us who keep
          on with a responsibility of calling eckankar for what it is, a fraud
          and deceiver of faith. : ) IMO, no one has gone beyond or even left
          eckankar when one continues to praise its teachings. One has not
          learned that those teachings were full of lies and deceptions which
          actually took the spiritual seeker off his path to God rather than
          showing a more direct route!

          Mish
        • mishmisha9
          Freefrom wrote: THey seem to be defending eckankar more than anything. It s like they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I m sure klemp types would be
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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            Freefrom wrote:

            THey seem to be defending eckankar more> than anything. It's like
            they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I'm sure klemp types
            would be very pleased with their attitude, very very pleased!
            Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck trolls posting.
            LOL
            >
            > Freefrom
            >


            Mish replies:

            This is what happens when there is so much permissiveness on a site
            like HCS. Ford approves all posts and is open to allowing all
            thoughts and opinions which leaves HCS as scattered and unorganized
            as a group consciousness. It also permits posters to be "nasty" to
            one another as well--so in the end, the group is not very collective
            at all. Basically, it is an organization with no central belief as
            everything is "good." It reminds me of children being allowed to do
            anything without consequences. The parents do not take
            responsibility in parenting as it is an "anything goes" belief
            system. However, in the real world, it doesn't happen that way.

            It is unfortunate that Ford cannot get his band together. His focus
            on revealing the lies and deceptions in eckankar was a good
            beginning, but it has not gone anywhere since IMO! I think people
            just need to understand how they can be easily duped by religious
            cons, and beyond that they realize it is their Higher Self that
            leads them to God-realization. They don't need eckankar or any other
            religion to take them there, and they don't need HCS to "teach" them
            how to achieve this either. : )

            Mish
          • prometheus_973
            Hello All, This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for granted such
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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              Hello All,

              This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think and
              contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for
              granted such as the group consciousness of: societies; religions;
              organizations; communities.

              Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
              together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!) there are other
              factors that either makes this statement true or inaccurate when it
              comes to people. Is there a collective group consciousness in
              Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual consciousness tuned into
              its own specific frequency? With circles of initiation in Eckankar
              perhaps it is viewed that the higher one goes the closer one is to
              that perfect wave length. Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned
              into 97.3 rather than 97.1 or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many
              circles of initiation and minor inner initiations (inbetween the
              recognized and final stage or confirmation to the major outer
              initiations) how can there be a true group consciousness? However,
              if there is then what is the level of this group consciousness? Is
              it the total average of all members (or each circle?) or is it only
              as great as its weakest link! Are there different groups of
              consciousness and Not one Group Consciousness within Eckankar? If
              there are different groups of consciousness, as well as birds with
              individual consciousness, there would certainly be different "flocks
              of birds" within a religion or society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the
              head bird look like that brings all of these other flocks
              together... (HK!) and what makes one bird greater than another?

              Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made up
              of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
              well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
              flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
              of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
              these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
              muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
              beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
              though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
              see your true Master!

              Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he have
              leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
              higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
              he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
              defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
              knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

              B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of
              Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke;
              The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con
              of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell! These are
              just a few of the things that they have shared on TS/HCS. They also
              plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts. Yet, with all of
              this along with their rudeness and intolerance to the insights of
              others, always needing to be right, putting others down for having a
              different POV from theirs, flattering to gain support, always having
              to have the last word, and their passive/aggressiveness towards
              Ford... Ford still gives them free reign as leaders on his BBs and
              as his HCS Canadian Representatives! Fascinating!!! LOL!

              Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved Souls
              with many different points of view on various subjects. This is also
              why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks that if
              people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that this will
              help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what is not.
              But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that Eckankar
              had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft, and the
              blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual advantage
              over others then how does Ford think that these people are capable
              of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
              consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

              This confuses me as to what kind of a "society" that Ford is
              attempting to create. The Higher Consciousness Society, for me, is
              more of an oxymoron when his "leaders" cannot exhibit even a meeting
              of the mind with Ford's own philosophy and opinions that he has
              expressed in his book! How can Ford support the views of his HCS
              leaders, unless, he also sees these beliefs as valid and true!

              Once again, we come back to the concept of group consciousness. It
              is obvious that not everyone in a group sees eye-to-eye even with
              the leader of the group let alone with other members. So, why don't
              people find a group with those they have more in common with? Or
              start their own group! People just want to belong to something it
              seems. It's like belonging to a dysfunctional (normal) family. It
              feels comfortable for each member knowing their role and having
              similar expectations which gives the feeling of security and having
              knowledge of (limited or imagined) control over life. Doesn't a
              group consciousness really offer a false sense of security and
              control over one's life?! Everyone's in agreement and the more the
              merrier! And, if everyone in the world would agree that would really
              make it so wouldn't it! Then there would be nothing to fear!

              Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit that
              it is nice to be able to share things with like minded individuals
              and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

              However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
              members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money and
              volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it any
              wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored... it
              shouldn't be! Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer
              their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
              illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
              members rather than on the quality of consciousness! This is why
              religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher quality of
              consciousness to their members because to do so they wouldn't be
              able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring conflict to
              the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS will not be for
              those seeking higher consciousness!

              Prometheus




              Freefrom wrote:

              THey seem to be defending eckankar more> than anything. It's like
              they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I'm sure klemp types
              would be very pleased with their attitude, very very pleased!
              Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck trolls posting.
              LOL


              Mish replies:

              This is what happens when there is so much permissiveness on a site
              like HCS. Ford approves all posts and is open to allowing all
              thoughts and opinions which leaves HCS as scattered and unorganized
              as a group consciousness. It also permits posters to be "nasty" to
              one another as well--so in the end, the group is not very collective
              at all. Basically, it is an organization with no central belief as
              everything is "good." It reminds me of children being allowed to do
              anything without consequences. The parents do not take
              responsibility in parenting as it is an "anything goes" belief
              system. However, in the real world, it doesn't happen that way.

              It is unfortunate that Ford cannot get his band together. His focus
              on revealing the lies and deceptions in eckankar was a good
              beginning, but it has not gone anywhere since IMO! I think people
              just need to understand how they can be easily duped by religious
              cons, and beyond that they realize it is their Higher Self that
              leads them to God-realization. They don't need eckankar or any other
              religion to take them there, and they don't need HCS to "teach" them
              how to achieve this either. : )
            • ctecvie
              Hello Prometheus and all, ... *** That s what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it should be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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                Hello Prometheus and all,

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello All,
                >
                > This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
                >and
                > contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for
                > granted such as the group consciousness of: societies; religions;
                > organizations; communities.

                ***Contemplate?? ;-)))
                >
                > Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
                > together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

                *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

                >there are other
                > factors that either makes this statement true or inaccurate when
                >it
                > comes to people. Is there a collective group consciousness in
                > Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual consciousness tuned into
                > its own specific frequency?

                *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
                be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
                seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
                individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
                And of what HCS is, too.

                >With circles of initiation in Eckankar
                > perhaps it is viewed that the higher one goes the closer one is to
                > that perfect wave length. Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned
                > into 97.3 rather than 97.1 or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many
                > circles of initiation and minor inner initiations (inbetween the
                > recognized and final stage or confirmation to the major outer
                > initiations) how can there be a true group consciousness?

                *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

                > However,
                > if there is then what is the level of this group consciousness? Is
                > it the total average of all members (or each circle?) or is it
                >only
                > as great as its weakest link!

                *** The smallest denominator? :-)

                > Are there different groups of
                > consciousness and Not one Group Consciousness within Eckankar? If
                > there are different groups of consciousness, as well as birds with
                > individual consciousness, there would certainly be
                >different "flocks
                > of birds" within a religion or society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does
                >the
                > head bird look like that brings all of these other flocks
                > together... (HK!) and what makes one bird greater than another?

                *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
                says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
                bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
                who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
                to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
                stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
                because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
                could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
                the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

                > Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made up
                > of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
                > well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
                > flock of birds with one following another. But what of other
                >flocks
                > of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
                > these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of
                >making
                > muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
                > beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
                > though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want
                >to
                > see your true Master!

                *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather pecking
                each other! LOL!
                >
                > Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
                >have
                > leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
                > higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
                > he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising
                >and
                > defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
                > knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

                *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
                man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
                >
                > B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
                >of
                > Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
                >Icke;
                > The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the
                >con
                > of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

                *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ... you
                have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons will
                follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who seek
                development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
                and "lower" planes.

                > These are
                > just a few of the things that they have shared on TS/HCS. They
                >also
                > plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts. Yet, with all of
                > this along with their rudeness and intolerance to the insights of
                > others, always needing to be right, putting others down for having
                >a
                > different POV from theirs, flattering to gain support, always
                >having
                > to have the last word, and their passive/aggressiveness towards
                > Ford... Ford still gives them free reign as leaders on his BBs and
                > as his HCS Canadian Representatives! Fascinating!!! LOL!

                *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say! I
                can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
                pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

                >
                > Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
                >Souls
                > with many different points of view on various subjects. This is
                >also
                > why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks that
                >if
                > people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that this will
                > help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what is not.
                > But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
                >Eckankar
                > had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft, and the
                > blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
                >advantage
                > over others then how does Ford think that these people are capable
                > of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
                > consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

                *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as best
                I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
                personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
                from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                ---- snip ----

                > Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
                >that
                > it is nice to be able to share things with like minded individuals
                > and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

                *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
                here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
                just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
                course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
                why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
                beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
                bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
                is clear in my opinion.
                >
                > However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
                > members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
                >and
                > volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
                >any
                > wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
                >it
                > shouldn't be!

                *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
                brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
                are very important to the organization.

                >Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer
                > their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                >shared
                > illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
                > members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

                *** This is what comes of it ...

                >This is why
                > religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher quality of
                > consciousness to their members because to do so they wouldn't be
                > able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring conflict
                >to
                > the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS will not be
                >for
                > those seeking higher consciousness!

                ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
                really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
                achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
                me. :-))

                Ingrid
              • prometheus_973
                Hi Ingrid, Just thought I d make some more comments. Thanks for the response! ctecvie wrote: Hello Prometheus and all, Prometheus wrote: ***This is very
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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                  Hi Ingrid,

                  Just thought I'd make some more comments. Thanks for the response!



                  ctecvie wrote:

                  Hello Prometheus and all,

                  Prometheus wrote:
                  ***This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
                  and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take
                  for granted such as the group consciousness of: societies;
                  religions; organizations; communities.

                  > ***Contemplate?? ;-)))

                  Me: Well I guess "ponder" would be more accurate. I sometimes try to
                  use Eck speak or their "common language" for the Eckists reading
                  these postings in order to communicate better. I do emphasize with
                  them and understand their frustrations as we all do. Actually, I
                  struggled, somewhat, to use "contemplate." It just doesn't feel
                  right anymore. LOL!

                  ***Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
                  together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

                  > *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

                  Me: Yes, HK overstates the obvious and understates everything else!

                  ***there are other factors that either makes this statement true or
                  inaccurate when it comes to people. Is there a collective group
                  consciousness in Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual
                  consciousness tuned into its own specific frequency?

                  > *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
                  be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
                  seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
                  individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
                  And of what HCS is, too.

                  Me: Choosing a religion is like choosing a house to live in. How far
                  away is the location, what features does it have, what can I live
                  with, what needs to be changed, what is the climate like, etc., etc.
                  the list goes on and on. Or, maybe one can do a semi custom home or
                  a custom design instead of buying a spec house. Imagination,
                  illusion, and purpose are all factors. But, one still needs a nice
                  lot to build upon... or not!

                  ***With circles of initiation in Eckankar perhaps it is viewed that
                  the higher one goes the closer one is to that perfect wave length.
                  Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned into 97.3 rather than 97.1
                  or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many circles of initiation and
                  minor inner initiations (inbetween the recognized and final stage or
                  confirmation to the major outer initiations) how can there be a true
                  group consciousness?

                  > *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

                  Me: There are those that we have much in common with on an
                  inner "spiritual" level or in Consciousness. Perhaps we are members
                  of the same cluster of Souls. Those on this site have much in
                  common, and there are others, elsewhere, we have much in common with
                  too.

                  ***However, if there is then what is the level of this group
                  consciousness? Is it the total average of all members (or each
                  circle?) or is it only as great as its weakest link!

                  > *** The smallest denominator? :-)

                  Me: It could be. People do tend to pull others down to their level
                  or sometimes the awakening is that those one thought were on a lower
                  level were actually on the same or higher level! Klemp via his
                  deceit is definitely on a lower level of consciousness than many of
                  his Eck followers!

                  ***Are there different groups of consciousness and Not one Group
                  Consciousness within Eckankar? If there are different groups of
                  consciousness, as well as birds with individual consciousness, there
                  would certainly be different "flocks of birds" within a religion or
                  society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the head bird look like that brings
                  all of these other flocks together... (HK!) and what makes one bird
                  greater than another?

                  > *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
                  says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
                  bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
                  who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
                  to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
                  stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
                  because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
                  could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
                  the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

                  Me: If Klemp takes on karma for people then why do bad things happen
                  to Eckists? If it's because they need the experiences then where is
                  the karma that HK is supposedly taking on? I know that Klump likes
                  to have it both ways, but how stupid are Eckists?! The woman that
                  freaked out at the 2005 EWWS is a perfect example of no Mahanta
                  protection or guidance. Where was her Mahanta? Or, is this an
                  example of her learning through experience? If so, then how does
                  this differ with everyone else in the world learning through their
                  experiences? And, (according to Eckankar) doesn't the Kal control
                  Karma and the all powerful Mahanta only steps in on occasion?!
                  Eckists' brains have atrophied!

                  ***Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made
                  up of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
                  well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
                  flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
                  of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
                  these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
                  muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
                  beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
                  though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
                  see your true Master!

                  > *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather
                  pecking each other! LOL!

                  Me: Yes there is a lot of that (and more!) going on within Eckankar.

                  ***Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
                  have leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
                  higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
                  he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
                  defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
                  knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

                  > *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
                  man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                  the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                  has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

                  Me: It does seem like he still hangs onto some of the rituals (and
                  expanding on them) like the spiritual exercises three times a day.
                  There's a lot of inner focus too. Most Eckists who reject the outer
                  RESA structure, EWS (ECK Worship Service), guidelines, trainings,
                  Vahana/missionary work, donations, etc. focus on the inner, mostly,
                  as well.

                  ***B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
                  of Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
                  Icke; The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea;
                  the con of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

                  > *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ...
                  you have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons
                  will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who
                  seek development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
                  and "lower" planes.

                  Me: It's good until one sees the nutty conspiracy posts along with
                  the Eckists attacking people. There's just too much permissiveness
                  by Ford. Even freedom requires responsibility or a safe environment
                  to protect those from the irresponsible few.

                  ***These are just a few of the things that they have shared on
                  TS/HCS. They also plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts.
                  Yet, with all of this along with their rudeness and intolerance to
                  the insights of others, always needing to be right, putting others
                  down for having a different POV from theirs, flattering to gain
                  support, always having to have the last word, and their
                  passive/aggressiveness towards Ford... Ford still gives them free
                  reign as leaders on his BBs and as his HCS Canadian Representatives!
                  Fascinating!!! LOL!

                  > *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say!
                  I can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
                  pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

                  Me: Yes, vanity and ego (power over others) is part of the game that
                  was learned and rewarded while in Eckankar.


                  ***Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
                  Souls with many different points of view on various subjects. This
                  is also why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks
                  that if people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that
                  this will help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what
                  is not. But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
                  Eckankar had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft,
                  and the blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
                  advantage over others then how does Ford think that these people are
                  capable of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
                  consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

                  > *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as
                  best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
                  personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
                  from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                  position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                  well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                  wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                  Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                  wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                  course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                  is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                  ---- snip ----

                  Me: Well said!

                  ***Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
                  that it is nice to be able to share things with like minded
                  individuals and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

                  > *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
                  here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
                  just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
                  course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
                  why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
                  beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
                  bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
                  is clear in my opinion.

                  Me: There is censorship on TS/HCS. I've seen one of Mario's (not too
                  long ago) deleted after it went up. It must have been very nasty for
                  Ford to have done that! I've also seen....... in posts which
                  indicate that something was removed. However, I'm more amazed at the
                  passive/aggressive posts towards Ford, from Mario and keyed in by
                  Betty, that Ford allows to go up! And, why does he allow B&M (his
                  HCS reps) to support Twitchell and The Tiger's Fang?!

                  ***However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
                  members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
                  and volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
                  any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
                  it shouldn't be!

                  > *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
                  brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
                  are very important to the organization.

                  Me: I would say that they have driven off more members (and will
                  continue to) than those who have joined (if any) due to them. I
                  would also question the quality (consciousness and goals) of members
                  joining due to Betty and Mario's influence.

                  ***Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer their
                  members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
                  illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
                  members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

                  > *** This is what comes of it ...

                  Me: There are no standards, but what kind of test could there be for
                  membership? Should there be a yearly review? An oversight committee?
                  LOL! Eckankar probably has so many of these that just spy on people
                  and project this or that as busy work and distraction for the higher
                  ups to feel important to the Mahanta's mission! LOL!

                  ***This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher
                  quality of consciousness to their members because to do so they
                  wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring
                  conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS
                  will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

                  > ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
                  really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
                  achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
                  me. :-))


                  Me: Me too! I hope that this site is helping people to see this and
                  to feel free to share their experiences and insights.

                  Prometheus
                • mishmisha9
                  Hi, Ingrid and All! Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to interject with a few comments! : ) Ingrid wrote: I always like what Sharon
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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                    Hi, Ingrid and All!

                    Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
                    interject with a few comments! : )

                    Ingrid wrote:
                    I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
                    out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                    the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                    has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

                    Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
                    Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
                    with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
                    after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
                    any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
                    eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
                    contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
                    Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                    like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                    letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
                    Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
                    see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
                    jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.

                    ######

                    Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
                    quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
                    myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
                    the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
                    America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

                    Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
                    view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
                    other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
                    people who seek development outside themselves and still think
                    in "higher" and "lower" planes.

                    Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
                    would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
                    others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
                    conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
                    videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
                    of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
                    manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
                    letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
                    video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
                    over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
                    someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
                    I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
                    Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
                    who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
                    to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
                    I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
                    have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
                    does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
                    down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
                    Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
                    circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
                    outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
                    points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
                    different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
                    have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
                    lost.

                    You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
                    open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
                    difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
                    have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
                    have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
                    advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
                    the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
                    As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
                    that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
                    intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
                    Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
                    want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
                    people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
                    uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
                    to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
                    alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
                    movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
                    thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
                    attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
                    be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
                    of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
                    therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
                    time! : )


                    ###############

                    Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
                    life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
                    on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
                    lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                    position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                    well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                    wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                    Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                    wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                    course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                    is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?

                    Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
                    learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
                    unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )

                    ############

                    Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
                    anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
                    discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
                    restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
                    Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
                    BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
                    What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
                    then everything is clear in my opinion.

                    Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
                    It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
                    that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
                    administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
                    incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
                    I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
                    It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
                    means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
                    views of others.

                    Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
                    try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
                    loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
                    consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
                    ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!


                    Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )

                    Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
                    have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
                    they are very important to the organization.


                    Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
                    that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
                    more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
                    brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
                    out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
                    not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.


                    Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
                    offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                    shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
                    quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

                    Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
                    in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
                    might?" Which do you choose?

                    Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
                    offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
                    do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
                    only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
                    why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

                    Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
                    power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
                    organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
                    but that's only me. :-))

                    Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
                    problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
                    eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
                    Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
                    I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
                    I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
                    organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
                    have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
                    stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
                    confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
                    manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.

                    Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
                    life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )

                    Mish
                  • Freefrom
                    I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without someone imposing their ideas
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 12, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about
                      spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without
                      someone imposing their ideas onto me as some kind of dogma or teaching
                      per se. AS Mish stated: "I enjoy being free to allow
                      > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                      > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                      > letting It to flow naturally."

                      Freefrom


                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                      <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi, Ingrid and All!
                      >
                      > Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
                      > interject with a few comments! : )
                      >
                      > Ingrid wrote:
                      > I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
                      > out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                      > the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                      > has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
                      >
                      > Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
                      > Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
                      > with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
                      > after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
                      > any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
                      > eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
                      > contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
                      > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                      > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                      > letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
                      > Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
                      > see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
                      > jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.
                      >
                      > ######
                      >
                      > Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
                      > quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
                      > myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
                      > the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
                      > America: the con of Paul Twitchell!
                      >
                      > Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
                      > view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
                      > other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
                      > people who seek development outside themselves and still think
                      > in "higher" and "lower" planes.
                      >
                      > Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
                      > would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
                      > others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
                      > conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
                      > videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
                      > of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
                      > manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
                      > letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
                      > video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
                      > over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
                      > someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
                      > I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
                      > Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
                      > who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
                      > to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
                      > I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
                      > have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
                      > does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
                      > down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
                      > Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
                      > circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
                      > outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
                      > points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
                      > different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
                      > have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
                      > lost.
                      >
                      > You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
                      > open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
                      > difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
                      > have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
                      > have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
                      > advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
                      > the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
                      > As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
                      > that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
                      > intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
                      > Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
                      > want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
                      > people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
                      > uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
                      > to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
                      > alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
                      > movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
                      > thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
                      > attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
                      > be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
                      > of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
                      > therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
                      > time! : )
                      >
                      >
                      > ###############
                      >
                      > Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
                      > life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
                      > on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
                      > lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                      > position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                      > well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                      > wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                      > Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                      > wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                      > course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                      > is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                      >
                      > Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
                      > learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
                      > unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )
                      >
                      > ############
                      >
                      > Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
                      > anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
                      > discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
                      > restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
                      > Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
                      > BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
                      > What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
                      > then everything is clear in my opinion.
                      >
                      > Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
                      > It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
                      > that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
                      > administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
                      > incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
                      > I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
                      > It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
                      > means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
                      > views of others.
                      >
                      > Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
                      > try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
                      > loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
                      > consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
                      > ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!
                      >
                      >
                      > Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )
                      >
                      > Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
                      > have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
                      > they are very important to the organization.
                      >
                      >
                      > Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
                      > that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
                      > more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
                      > brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
                      > out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
                      > not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.
                      >
                      >
                      > Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
                      > offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                      > shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
                      > quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!
                      >
                      > Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
                      > in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
                      > might?" Which do you choose?
                      >
                      > Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
                      > offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
                      > do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
                      > only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
                      > why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!
                      >
                      > Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
                      > power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
                      > organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
                      > but that's only me. :-))
                      >
                      > Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
                      > problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
                      > eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
                      > Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
                      > I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
                      > I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
                      > organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
                      > have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
                      > stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
                      > confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
                      > manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.
                      >
                      > Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
                      > life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )
                      >
                      > Mish
                      >
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