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Re: The "Satsang" of Twitchell's Distortions

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Mish, ***Just thought I d comment more as well. mishmisha wrote: Freefrom is making a good point about passive-aggressive behavior. It is a very
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 7, 2005
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      Hi Mish,
      ***Just thought I'd comment more as well.


      mishmisha wrote:

      Freefrom is making a good point about passive-aggressive behavior.
      It is a very manipulative/control technique which as he says is used
      by many, and is readily apparent in eckankar with the establishment
      of the RESA structure under his lordship Harold. It is a long,
      delusional path with a certain few directing the herd and keeping
      them locked in!

      ***Yes, this is true. Also, passive/aggressive behaviour is a
      defensive/survival mechanism used by those who feel trapped, weak,
      or helpless in submissive positions by those in "superior" positions
      or those who have power over them and control of their careers or
      destinies (initiations). This passive/aggressive behaviour is
      usually seen in the workplace, but can also occur in families, in
      religions, and everyday situations.





      "Freefrom" eckchains wrote:

      What is interesting about both of these so called ultimate paths to
      the highest Godhead is that it is all about believing. THese are not
      really paths of exploration or any true spiritual inqiry or real
      understanding. It's all about memorizing what you are being told to
      believe. It is a fictionalized dogma with some truth possibly mixed
      in here and there, just like any religion out there.

      Mish: What is taught is self-brainwashing. Singing HU several times
      a day; focusing on a photo, either real or in your mind, of HK and
      other eck masters. These images pop up into one's mind, because one
      has created those images, and thus, they become "real."

      ***Yes, Klemp is trying to change Eckists by making them Less
      emotional (feeling & loving) and Less mental (critical thinking) by
      stressing the Negative aspects of emotion and thought. But HK also
      confuses Eckists and keeps them off balance by implying they
      are "heart people" when the emotional/Astral is seen as lower and
      Negative for Soul.



      Freefrom: Also, I have been realizing lately, that one of the ways
      that these groups control people into behaving and believing the
      group think, is through their own Passive Aggressive behavior, that
      is shunning or ignoring, or getting back at those who question too
      much. Passive aggressive behavior is indirect aggression, like not
      giving certain persons an initiation, or exclusion, or subtly
      turning the group against you or gossiping behind your back, etc..
      THis is often a course of action among people who are taught to not
      handle conflicts in a direct and assertive manner.

      Mish: Yes, this is cruel behavior that many do not realize that they
      are inflicting on others, because it is "taught" to be appropriate.
      Gossiping behind a person's back as some HI's especially do is a way
      of keeping informed about others and making judgments which can lead
      to the passive-aggression behavior that Freefrom points out. Would
      you believe that I was shunned while in the org? : )

      ***yes, there is a lot of manipulation (locally) with the Eck
      Initiations, especially, in the past twenty years under Klemp!
      Eckists now have to jump through many more hoops (trainings) to
      achieve those Higher Initiations and powerful "Settler" titles (such
      as ESA and RESA)! Personality, friendship, and volunteer efforts
      (and those IRO/HIROs to ESC) are key factors. Oh, don't forget
      silence... key your mouth shut and never complain about anything or
      anyone!




      Freefrom: In eckankult, being direct, honest, or assertive is often
      automatically labeled angry and hateful. THis then also leads to
      guilt feelings for those who may be feeling some resentment as a
      natural response to such dishonesty. Klemp can be very passive
      aggressive and is very good at smearing those who disagree with, but
      he will never directly debate anyone who may have a differing point
      of view. After all, he is the ultimate authority on the planet, the
      Son of God, God on earth, Mahanta, blah, blah, blah.

      Mish: Yes, Harold doesn't say anything of substance! His personality
      is pretty dead too--anger shines through at times, but not much
      else. I read in one of his transcripts that he (HK) said eckists
      would be foolish to believe everything he said. I threw all the
      transcripst out, regettably, as I would like to cite his words
      exactly. I appreciated that he did state this as it really set me
      free to pick and choose; however, when I mentioned this to a couple
      of fanatical eckist friends, they had a big problem with the idea
      because all that Harold ever spoke was golden to them, and they
      seemed to have missed this clever disclaimer that was interjected in
      this particular HK transcript. They were very angry with me--
      especially since I was a lower initiate.

      I have come to realize the reason Harold chuckles and laughs so much
      during his talks is because he must find it amazing how his chelas
      are falling for his lies! He must think that "his audiences" contain
      the most stupid of stupidist people in the world. It surely must
      make him feel much smarter to con so many who so readily hang onto
      every word he speaks! : )

      ***I agree with all of what both of you have shared. Klemp displays
      an insidious side to his character at times. Eckists should do an
      experiment and analyse his words with Neutrality... but that would
      be impossible wouldn't it! (Try his 2005 EWWS talk on the topic of
      only having "love" for relationships). Still, the attempt to read
      his words with a neutral attitude would show an individual a
      comparative difference and indicate the degree of prejudice and
      brainwashing that has taken place. This would be a real Wake-up Call!




      Freefrom: What a joke. ;-) Once people see him for the fool he and
      Gross and Twitch really were/are, then they will not be fooled
      themselves. THe trick for me, is to start viewing the understanding
      of life and existence as an inqiry with an open mind. THen dogma is
      seen for what it is, a potential trap.


      Mish: I like your "trick," Freefrom, much better than those of the
      eckankar leadership. Our minds are our tools for sorting out our
      lives and the meaning of our existence. Handing this gift over to
      the domination of others, such as Twitchel, Gross and Klemp, is
      truly foolish and a hazzardous misstep. It is too bad that eckists
      are being manipulated into trying to rope in more Souls to fall
      victim to this scam.

      ***Yes, there is pressure and stress on the introverted and more
      private Eckists to become extroverted and public. Yhey have to take
      more trainings, give talks, conduct Eck Worship Services to qualify
      and be elligible for those positions and initiations. This is part
      of climbing that ladder, but it's more like a Merry-go-round and
      stretching out for that brass ring, or in this case the ring that is
      gold plated! The illusion is that the ring (goal) is solid gold and
      thus has great value. The initiations and positions have no
      spiritual value and are only control techniwues used by the
      hierarchy and leadership of another religious scam. This one is
      called Eckankar.



      Prometheus wrote:
      Hello All,
      I'll bet all of this sounds very familiar to Eckists. Yes this "Path
      of the Masters is slow and comparatively easy" (they claim) and
      chelas attain "the fifth region called Sach Khand... in much less
      time." So, this religion sounds like the most direct path (and
      an Easy Way, LOL!) to God-Realization just like Eckankar! However
      it is slow. Then again, how fast is Eckankar? Initiations use to be
      fast but Klemp has slowed them down. It now takes 15-18 years to
      reach the Fifth. And most 7ths need at least 25 years as a 7th to be
      considered for the 8th. Just look at S.B.'s old buddy F.B.! She's
      still an "outer" 7th but in her mind's eye she's an 8th or maybe a
      9th, or maybe a 33rd! LOL! Delusion and ego are alive and well in
      the Eck communities!!!

      Anyway, it's all fun and games for these Living "Masters" isn't
      it?! Pity, that people can't see beyond the lifelong codependence
      that they preach. However, at least we can see where Twitchell got
      his ideas for Spiritual Freedom or Liberation. It's just too bad
      that he took his personal Cliffhanger (Soul seeking God) approach
      and made it into a vocation. But, if we look at P.T.'s past (a liar
      and fiction writer) and his circumstances (meeting Gail) and
      associations (L. Ron Hubbard, etc. and his chastisement by his
      master Kirpal Singh) we can see why Twitchell did what he did. If we
      look at Gross and Klemp we can see why they were so willing to take
      over and continue the Eckankar scam as LEM/Mahantas.

      I said, fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you... Mr.
      Klemp, but this should normally be once for him and twice for me.
      And I will admit that after my orthodox religious experience, and
      TM, etc., and I should have been more cautious with Eckankar. But, I
      saw Eckankar in a class by itself and threw caution to the wind (of
      change?). Still, it was a struggle to close my eyes to some of the
      behaviour, the written contradictions and confusing speak, and to
      Klemp's moronish and shallow stories. And, I especially disliked
      what I knew to be embellished and fictional stories by Eckists that
      they "shared" in seminar talks, in Eck publications, and in
      IRO/HIROs to Klemp. Oh well, when the chela is ready the Master will
      appear... in the mirror!

      Prometheus



      Mish: I threw caution to the wind, too, when I joined up! I'm still
      shaking my head about doing that. I don't blame eckankar--I blame
      myself for being so easily conned. I never was comfortable with the
      teachings, though, and I saw a lot of crazy stuff going on--
      especially at seminars. As a newcomer, I was told to be careful not
      to try to "understand" too much in the teachings too quickly or I
      could become sick with spiritual indigestion! This is a good
      silencing technique, don't you think? Partner it with the law of
      silence, and the leverage of getting your initiations in a timely
      manner, well, . . . there you have it, control and dominance by the
      few for the benefit of the few! There is nothing spiritual about
      misleading people and giving them false hope. :(

      ***True! When I first discovered Eckankar I thought it was an
      advanced path because of the detailed explanations I got in regards
      to karma. However, these details of karma are all found in
      Twichell's reference book, "The Path of the Masters." What was
      funny, when I first joined, I was having more Spiritual experiences
      and dreams than were the long time Eckists! Of course, they said
      that they had the guidance and protection of the Mahanta and that
      was supposed to mean something I guess. Christians think they have
      the guidance and protection of Jesus! WOW! Living masters, like
      Popes, really make a difference! LOL! Why didn't we Eckists learn
      from the past deceptions of other religions? I know! It was because
      Eckankar was Not a religion! It was a Spiritual Path and the most
      direct one to God-Realization! We knew this because this is what we
      were told and why would anyone lie to us? Did our former religions
      lie to us? Why did we trust them... because our parents did! Now we
      can see the trap can't we... we trusted that Eckankar was different
      and Not even a religion!

      Prometheus
    • mishmisha9
      Mish wrote: There is nothing spiritual about misleading people and giving them false hope. :( Prometheus replied: ***True! When I first discovered Eckankar I
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 7, 2005
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        Mish wrote:
        There is nothing spiritual about
        misleading people and giving them false hope. :(

        Prometheus replied:
        ***True! When I first discovered Eckankar I thought it was an
        advanced path because of the detailed explanations I got in regards
        to karma. However, these details of karma are all found in
        Twichell's reference book, "The Path of the Masters." What was
        funny, when I first joined, I was having more Spiritual experiences
        and dreams than were the long time Eckists! Of course, they said
        that they had the guidance and protection of the Mahanta and that
        was supposed to mean something I guess. Christians think they have
        the guidance and protection of Jesus! WOW! Living masters, like
        Popes, really make a difference! LOL! Why didn't we Eckists learn
        from the past deceptions of other religions? I know! It was because
        Eckankar was Not a religion! It was a Spiritual Path and the most
        direct one to God-Realization! We knew this because this is what we
        were told and why would anyone lie to us? Did our former religions
        lie to us? Why did we trust them... because our parents did! Now we
        can see the trap can't we... we trusted that Eckankar was different
        and Not even a religion!

        Mish: It is interesting how Eckankar is claimed to be ancient wisdom
        for today, which supposedly resurfaced when Twitch made it up in
        1965. LOL! Eckankar is advertised as the most direct path to God and
        thus, this claim pulls people in--individuals who do not want to
        miss the opportunity to achieve God-realization in this lifetime. It
        seems harmless at first, but looking at the modern history of
        eckankar, one can see how it has become more demanding and more
        controlling over time, especially under the leadership of Klemp who
        set up the RESA structure to keep chelas behaving and working for
        him. Klemp has even turned eckankar from a spiritual path into a
        religion which resembles his Luthern background/education. Making
        eckankar a religion also makes it tax exempt, and since the temple
        is in Minnesota, it's accounts/bookkeeping are not available for
        public scrutiny--it is all so very conveniently secretive.

        IMO, religions are just orgs that many people feel comfortable to
        hold onto. They don't want to go it alone, so they hook up with a
        group, surrendering their spiritual freedom. How many times have we
        as eckists heard the oft repeated word "surrender?" Eckists are
        taught to surrender, to surrender to the mahanta, etc. What does
        surrender mean in truth? Webster's dictionary defines it as
        this: "to give oneself up, as into the power of another; submit or
        yield. . ."

        Now, why in the world would anyone want to surrender--isn't it much
        better to never give up and to never surrender! When you surrender,
        you give up control of yourself and possibly your destiny.

        I keep reading comments by eckists and former eckists who continue
        to believe that they learned so much from the eckankar experience.
        Some "idiot" former eckists even believe that those who continue to
        point out the lies and deceptions in eckankar in such a forum as
        this one are angry individuals who cannot move on with life. This is
        so far from the truth. I'm not angry--I just feel an obligation to
        keep the real truth about eckankar exposed so that others who are in
        the org might take the step to leave, and it might keep newbies from
        joining. Eckankar is not a necessary adventure and its teachings do
        not contain anything special for anyone who's been there to need to
        give thanks for or value it. Whatever one has learned about
        spiritual matters while participating in eckankar has been despite
        the trappings of eckankar. I think it is so foolish for an
        individual, as I read recently on HCS, to state that those of us who
        are sharing the negative truths about eckankar did not learn
        anything from the teachings, stating this as though learning nothing
        from the eck teachings is a terrible thing. LOL! Well, I did learn
        some things about eckankar--I learned about lies, I learned about
        ego driven people who like to control others, and I learned what a
        waste of time it is, among other things. I think it is unfortunate
        that some former eckists still want to cling to the teachings of
        eckankar, to continue to praise Paul Twitchell and quote him, and
        even HK, etc. It seems to me that these individuals have not learned
        much and certainly remain stuck. I really wonder if these former
        eckists are regretting that they left and would like to return--of
        course, if they could go back into the org with their former H.I.
        initiations intact--but of course, that would never happen as HK has
        clearly stated in a recent Mystic World Wisdom Note that someone
        returning would lose all levels of initiations and be put back as a
        first initiate. Then, one would have to wonder if one would even
        progress from there--I'm sure the shunning and black balling would
        be all so obvious. I don't believe that eckists would welcome
        such "traitors" back with open arms! But I suppose if you hang
        around in new groups and believe that eckankar was a necessary
        stepping stone to greater consciousness, one would be delusional
        enough to think the eck initiations have not been lost at all, and
        one has risen even higher--way above the rest of the spiritual
        seekers--and one would feel very lofty indeed. One might even think
        that they are in a more joyful place than say those of us who keep
        on with a responsibility of calling eckankar for what it is, a fraud
        and deceiver of faith. : ) IMO, no one has gone beyond or even left
        eckankar when one continues to praise its teachings. One has not
        learned that those teachings were full of lies and deceptions which
        actually took the spiritual seeker off his path to God rather than
        showing a more direct route!

        Mish
      • prometheus_973
        I agree with Mish that Eckists like Klemp s cohorts on HU-Chat and Chela-Chat or Ruben and other subversive/undercover double agent Eckists, and some former
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 8, 2005
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          I agree with Mish that Eckists like Klemp's cohorts on HU-Chat and
          Chela-Chat or Ruben and other subversive/undercover double agent
          Eckists, and some former Eckists (who in essence do the same), such
          as Mario & Betty, on TS/HCS, all continue to mislead people with the
          Eck-and-Twitch-crap. I really wonder just how far Ford can take his
          Great Work (Teachings) with the likes of B&M! Not far is my guess
          since he has had them with him from the beginning. However, I really
          wonder what qualifies Ford as a better teacher than I AM for MySelf
          or for anyone?!

          Prometheus




          Mish wrote:
          There is nothing spiritual about misleading people and giving them
          false hope. :(

          I keep reading comments by eckists and former eckists who continue
          to believe that they learned so much from the eckankar experience.
          Some "idiot" former eckists even believe that those who continue to
          point out the lies and deceptions in eckankar in such a forum as
          this one are angry individuals who cannot move on with life. This is
          so far from the truth. I'm not angry--I just feel an obligation to
          keep the real truth about eckankar exposed so that others who are in
          the org might take the step to leave, and it might keep newbies from
          joining. Eckankar is not a necessary adventure and its teachings do
          not contain anything special for anyone who's been there to need to
          give thanks for or value it. Whatever one has learned about
          spiritual matters while participating in eckankar has been despite
          the trappings of eckankar.

          I think it is so foolish for an individual, as I read recently on
          HCS, to state that those of us who are sharing the negative truths
          about eckankar did not learn anything from the teachings, stating
          this as though learning nothing from the eck teachings is a terrible
          thing. LOL! Well, I did learn some things about eckankar--I learned
          about lies, I learned about ego driven people who like to control
          others, and I learned what a waste of time it is, among other
          things. I think it is unfortunate that some former eckists still
          want to cling to the teachings of eckankar, to continue to praise
          Paul Twitchell and quote him, and even HK, etc. It seems to me that
          these individuals have not learned much and certainly remain stuck.

          I really wonder if these former eckists are regretting that they
          left and would like to return--of course, if they could go back into
          the org with their former H.I. initiations intact--but of course,
          that would never happen as HK has clearly stated in a recent Mystic
          World Wisdom Note that someone returning would lose all levels of
          initiations and be put back as a first initiate. Then, one would
          have to wonder if one would even progress from there--I'm sure the
          shunning and black balling would be all so obvious. I don't believe
          that eckists would welcome such "traitors" back with open arms!

          But I suppose if you hang around in new groups and believe that
          eckankar was a necessary stepping stone to greater consciousness,
          one would be delusional enough to think the eck initiations have not
          been lost at all, and one has risen even higher--way above the rest
          of the spiritual seekers--and one would feel very lofty indeed. One
          might even think that they are in a more joyful place than say those
          of us who keep on with a responsibility of calling eckankar for what
          it is, a fraud and deceiver of faith. : )

          IMO, no one has gone beyond or even left eckankar when one continues
          to praise its teachings. One has not learned that those teachings
          were full of lies and deceptions which actually took the spiritual
          seeker off his path to God rather than showing a more direct route!

          Mish
        • Freefrom
          Hi mish and all, Yes I read some similar posts at HCS, maybe the same ones, about how those who critisize eckankar supposedly did not learn what they were
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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            Hi mish and all,

            Yes I read some similar posts at HCS, maybe the same ones, about how
            those who critisize eckankar supposedly did not learn what they were
            supposed to have learned from the Kult, and that is to remain silent.
            I can only guess as to what they are talking about. Why are they so
            defensive about eckankult? It is almost as if they are saying that
            they really enjoyed and learned a lot from the spiritual abuse they
            got. Spiritual abuse is therefore a necessary step toward spiritual
            enlightenment? People who really believe this, IMO, will be more
            likely to feel justified in abusing others in a similar way that they
            were abused. I say watch out and run away as fast as you can from such
            persons who probably have con tendencies, that is they are dishonest.
            They would probably think it is also just fine to pay a whore to
            sexually abuse them as well! Maybe some whips and chains,etc.lol THis
            is crap. As far as I can tell, they are still eckists. They would be
            better off to just admit it. As far as being angry, so what, but it is
            more annoying than anything. THey seem to be defending eckankar more
            than anything. It's like they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour.
            I'm sure klemp types would be very pleased with their attitude, very
            very pleased! Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck
            trolls posting. LOL

            Freefrom

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
            <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
            >
            ................snip

            I keep reading comments by eckists and former eckists who continue
            to believe that they learned so much from the eckankar experience.
            Some "idiot" former eckists even believe that those who continue to
            point out the lies and deceptions in eckankar in such a forum as
            this one are angry individuals who cannot move on with life. This is
            so far from the truth. I'm not angry--I just feel an obligation to
            keep the real truth about eckankar exposed so that others who are in
            the org might take the step to leave, and it might keep newbies from
            joining. Eckankar is not a necessary adventure and its teachings do
            not contain anything special for anyone who's been there to need to
            give thanks for or value it. Whatever one has learned about
            spiritual matters while participating in eckankar has been despite
            the trappings of eckankar. I think it is so foolish for an
            individual, as I read recently on HCS, to state that those of us who
            are sharing the negative truths about eckankar did not learn
            anything from the teachings, stating this as though learning nothing
            from the eck teachings is a terrible thing. LOL! Well, I did learn
            some things about eckankar--I learned about lies, I learned about
            ego driven people who like to control others, and I learned what a
            waste of time it is, among other things. I think it is unfortunate
            that some former eckists still want to cling to the teachings of
            eckankar, to continue to praise Paul Twitchell and quote him, and
            even HK, etc. It seems to me that these individuals have not learned
            much and certainly remain stuck. I really wonder if these former
            eckists are regretting that they left and would like to return--of
            course, if they could go back into the org with their former H.I.
            initiations intact--but of course, that would never happen as HK has
            clearly stated in a recent Mystic World Wisdom Note that someone
            returning would lose all levels of initiations and be put back as a
            first initiate. Then, one would have to wonder if one would even
            progress from there--I'm sure the shunning and black balling would
            be all so obvious. I don't believe that eckists would welcome
            such "traitors" back with open arms! But I suppose if you hang
            around in new groups and believe that eckankar was a necessary
            stepping stone to greater consciousness, one would be delusional
            enough to think the eck initiations have not been lost at all, and
            one has risen even higher--way above the rest of the spiritual
            seekers--and one would feel very lofty indeed. One might even think
            that they are in a more joyful place than say those of us who keep
            on with a responsibility of calling eckankar for what it is, a fraud
            and deceiver of faith. : ) IMO, no one has gone beyond or even left
            eckankar when one continues to praise its teachings. One has not
            learned that those teachings were full of lies and deceptions which
            actually took the spiritual seeker off his path to God rather than
            showing a more direct route!

            Mish
          • mishmisha9
            Freefrom wrote: THey seem to be defending eckankar more than anything. It s like they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I m sure klemp types would be
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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              Freefrom wrote:

              THey seem to be defending eckankar more> than anything. It's like
              they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I'm sure klemp types
              would be very pleased with their attitude, very very pleased!
              Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck trolls posting.
              LOL
              >
              > Freefrom
              >


              Mish replies:

              This is what happens when there is so much permissiveness on a site
              like HCS. Ford approves all posts and is open to allowing all
              thoughts and opinions which leaves HCS as scattered and unorganized
              as a group consciousness. It also permits posters to be "nasty" to
              one another as well--so in the end, the group is not very collective
              at all. Basically, it is an organization with no central belief as
              everything is "good." It reminds me of children being allowed to do
              anything without consequences. The parents do not take
              responsibility in parenting as it is an "anything goes" belief
              system. However, in the real world, it doesn't happen that way.

              It is unfortunate that Ford cannot get his band together. His focus
              on revealing the lies and deceptions in eckankar was a good
              beginning, but it has not gone anywhere since IMO! I think people
              just need to understand how they can be easily duped by religious
              cons, and beyond that they realize it is their Higher Self that
              leads them to God-realization. They don't need eckankar or any other
              religion to take them there, and they don't need HCS to "teach" them
              how to achieve this either. : )

              Mish
            • prometheus_973
              Hello All, This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for granted such
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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                Hello All,

                This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think and
                contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for
                granted such as the group consciousness of: societies; religions;
                organizations; communities.

                Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
                together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!) there are other
                factors that either makes this statement true or inaccurate when it
                comes to people. Is there a collective group consciousness in
                Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual consciousness tuned into
                its own specific frequency? With circles of initiation in Eckankar
                perhaps it is viewed that the higher one goes the closer one is to
                that perfect wave length. Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned
                into 97.3 rather than 97.1 or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many
                circles of initiation and minor inner initiations (inbetween the
                recognized and final stage or confirmation to the major outer
                initiations) how can there be a true group consciousness? However,
                if there is then what is the level of this group consciousness? Is
                it the total average of all members (or each circle?) or is it only
                as great as its weakest link! Are there different groups of
                consciousness and Not one Group Consciousness within Eckankar? If
                there are different groups of consciousness, as well as birds with
                individual consciousness, there would certainly be different "flocks
                of birds" within a religion or society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the
                head bird look like that brings all of these other flocks
                together... (HK!) and what makes one bird greater than another?

                Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made up
                of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
                well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
                flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
                of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
                these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
                muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
                beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
                though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
                see your true Master!

                Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he have
                leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
                higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
                he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
                defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
                knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

                B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of
                Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke;
                The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con
                of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell! These are
                just a few of the things that they have shared on TS/HCS. They also
                plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts. Yet, with all of
                this along with their rudeness and intolerance to the insights of
                others, always needing to be right, putting others down for having a
                different POV from theirs, flattering to gain support, always having
                to have the last word, and their passive/aggressiveness towards
                Ford... Ford still gives them free reign as leaders on his BBs and
                as his HCS Canadian Representatives! Fascinating!!! LOL!

                Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved Souls
                with many different points of view on various subjects. This is also
                why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks that if
                people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that this will
                help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what is not.
                But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that Eckankar
                had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft, and the
                blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual advantage
                over others then how does Ford think that these people are capable
                of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
                consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

                This confuses me as to what kind of a "society" that Ford is
                attempting to create. The Higher Consciousness Society, for me, is
                more of an oxymoron when his "leaders" cannot exhibit even a meeting
                of the mind with Ford's own philosophy and opinions that he has
                expressed in his book! How can Ford support the views of his HCS
                leaders, unless, he also sees these beliefs as valid and true!

                Once again, we come back to the concept of group consciousness. It
                is obvious that not everyone in a group sees eye-to-eye even with
                the leader of the group let alone with other members. So, why don't
                people find a group with those they have more in common with? Or
                start their own group! People just want to belong to something it
                seems. It's like belonging to a dysfunctional (normal) family. It
                feels comfortable for each member knowing their role and having
                similar expectations which gives the feeling of security and having
                knowledge of (limited or imagined) control over life. Doesn't a
                group consciousness really offer a false sense of security and
                control over one's life?! Everyone's in agreement and the more the
                merrier! And, if everyone in the world would agree that would really
                make it so wouldn't it! Then there would be nothing to fear!

                Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit that
                it is nice to be able to share things with like minded individuals
                and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

                However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
                members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money and
                volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it any
                wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored... it
                shouldn't be! Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer
                their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
                illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
                members rather than on the quality of consciousness! This is why
                religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher quality of
                consciousness to their members because to do so they wouldn't be
                able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring conflict to
                the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS will not be for
                those seeking higher consciousness!

                Prometheus




                Freefrom wrote:

                THey seem to be defending eckankar more> than anything. It's like
                they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I'm sure klemp types
                would be very pleased with their attitude, very very pleased!
                Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck trolls posting.
                LOL


                Mish replies:

                This is what happens when there is so much permissiveness on a site
                like HCS. Ford approves all posts and is open to allowing all
                thoughts and opinions which leaves HCS as scattered and unorganized
                as a group consciousness. It also permits posters to be "nasty" to
                one another as well--so in the end, the group is not very collective
                at all. Basically, it is an organization with no central belief as
                everything is "good." It reminds me of children being allowed to do
                anything without consequences. The parents do not take
                responsibility in parenting as it is an "anything goes" belief
                system. However, in the real world, it doesn't happen that way.

                It is unfortunate that Ford cannot get his band together. His focus
                on revealing the lies and deceptions in eckankar was a good
                beginning, but it has not gone anywhere since IMO! I think people
                just need to understand how they can be easily duped by religious
                cons, and beyond that they realize it is their Higher Self that
                leads them to God-realization. They don't need eckankar or any other
                religion to take them there, and they don't need HCS to "teach" them
                how to achieve this either. : )
              • ctecvie
                Hello Prometheus and all, ... *** That s what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it should be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Prometheus and all,

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  >
                  > This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
                  >and
                  > contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for
                  > granted such as the group consciousness of: societies; religions;
                  > organizations; communities.

                  ***Contemplate?? ;-)))
                  >
                  > Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
                  > together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

                  *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

                  >there are other
                  > factors that either makes this statement true or inaccurate when
                  >it
                  > comes to people. Is there a collective group consciousness in
                  > Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual consciousness tuned into
                  > its own specific frequency?

                  *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
                  be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
                  seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
                  individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
                  And of what HCS is, too.

                  >With circles of initiation in Eckankar
                  > perhaps it is viewed that the higher one goes the closer one is to
                  > that perfect wave length. Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned
                  > into 97.3 rather than 97.1 or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many
                  > circles of initiation and minor inner initiations (inbetween the
                  > recognized and final stage or confirmation to the major outer
                  > initiations) how can there be a true group consciousness?

                  *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

                  > However,
                  > if there is then what is the level of this group consciousness? Is
                  > it the total average of all members (or each circle?) or is it
                  >only
                  > as great as its weakest link!

                  *** The smallest denominator? :-)

                  > Are there different groups of
                  > consciousness and Not one Group Consciousness within Eckankar? If
                  > there are different groups of consciousness, as well as birds with
                  > individual consciousness, there would certainly be
                  >different "flocks
                  > of birds" within a religion or society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does
                  >the
                  > head bird look like that brings all of these other flocks
                  > together... (HK!) and what makes one bird greater than another?

                  *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
                  says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
                  bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
                  who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
                  to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
                  stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
                  because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
                  could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
                  the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

                  > Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made up
                  > of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
                  > well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
                  > flock of birds with one following another. But what of other
                  >flocks
                  > of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
                  > these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of
                  >making
                  > muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
                  > beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
                  > though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want
                  >to
                  > see your true Master!

                  *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather pecking
                  each other! LOL!
                  >
                  > Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
                  >have
                  > leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
                  > higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
                  > he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising
                  >and
                  > defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
                  > knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

                  *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
                  man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                  the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                  has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
                  >
                  > B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
                  >of
                  > Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
                  >Icke;
                  > The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the
                  >con
                  > of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

                  *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ... you
                  have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons will
                  follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who seek
                  development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
                  and "lower" planes.

                  > These are
                  > just a few of the things that they have shared on TS/HCS. They
                  >also
                  > plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts. Yet, with all of
                  > this along with their rudeness and intolerance to the insights of
                  > others, always needing to be right, putting others down for having
                  >a
                  > different POV from theirs, flattering to gain support, always
                  >having
                  > to have the last word, and their passive/aggressiveness towards
                  > Ford... Ford still gives them free reign as leaders on his BBs and
                  > as his HCS Canadian Representatives! Fascinating!!! LOL!

                  *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say! I
                  can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
                  pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

                  >
                  > Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
                  >Souls
                  > with many different points of view on various subjects. This is
                  >also
                  > why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks that
                  >if
                  > people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that this will
                  > help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what is not.
                  > But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
                  >Eckankar
                  > had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft, and the
                  > blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
                  >advantage
                  > over others then how does Ford think that these people are capable
                  > of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
                  > consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

                  *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as best
                  I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
                  personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
                  from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                  position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                  well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                  wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                  Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                  wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                  course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                  is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                  ---- snip ----

                  > Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
                  >that
                  > it is nice to be able to share things with like minded individuals
                  > and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

                  *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
                  here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
                  just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
                  course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
                  why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
                  beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
                  bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
                  is clear in my opinion.
                  >
                  > However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
                  > members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
                  >and
                  > volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
                  >any
                  > wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
                  >it
                  > shouldn't be!

                  *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
                  brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
                  are very important to the organization.

                  >Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer
                  > their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                  >shared
                  > illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
                  > members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

                  *** This is what comes of it ...

                  >This is why
                  > religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher quality of
                  > consciousness to their members because to do so they wouldn't be
                  > able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring conflict
                  >to
                  > the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS will not be
                  >for
                  > those seeking higher consciousness!

                  ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
                  really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
                  achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
                  me. :-))

                  Ingrid
                • prometheus_973
                  Hi Ingrid, Just thought I d make some more comments. Thanks for the response! ctecvie wrote: Hello Prometheus and all, Prometheus wrote: ***This is very
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Ingrid,

                    Just thought I'd make some more comments. Thanks for the response!



                    ctecvie wrote:

                    Hello Prometheus and all,

                    Prometheus wrote:
                    ***This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
                    and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take
                    for granted such as the group consciousness of: societies;
                    religions; organizations; communities.

                    > ***Contemplate?? ;-)))

                    Me: Well I guess "ponder" would be more accurate. I sometimes try to
                    use Eck speak or their "common language" for the Eckists reading
                    these postings in order to communicate better. I do emphasize with
                    them and understand their frustrations as we all do. Actually, I
                    struggled, somewhat, to use "contemplate." It just doesn't feel
                    right anymore. LOL!

                    ***Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
                    together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

                    > *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

                    Me: Yes, HK overstates the obvious and understates everything else!

                    ***there are other factors that either makes this statement true or
                    inaccurate when it comes to people. Is there a collective group
                    consciousness in Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual
                    consciousness tuned into its own specific frequency?

                    > *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
                    be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
                    seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
                    individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
                    And of what HCS is, too.

                    Me: Choosing a religion is like choosing a house to live in. How far
                    away is the location, what features does it have, what can I live
                    with, what needs to be changed, what is the climate like, etc., etc.
                    the list goes on and on. Or, maybe one can do a semi custom home or
                    a custom design instead of buying a spec house. Imagination,
                    illusion, and purpose are all factors. But, one still needs a nice
                    lot to build upon... or not!

                    ***With circles of initiation in Eckankar perhaps it is viewed that
                    the higher one goes the closer one is to that perfect wave length.
                    Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned into 97.3 rather than 97.1
                    or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many circles of initiation and
                    minor inner initiations (inbetween the recognized and final stage or
                    confirmation to the major outer initiations) how can there be a true
                    group consciousness?

                    > *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

                    Me: There are those that we have much in common with on an
                    inner "spiritual" level or in Consciousness. Perhaps we are members
                    of the same cluster of Souls. Those on this site have much in
                    common, and there are others, elsewhere, we have much in common with
                    too.

                    ***However, if there is then what is the level of this group
                    consciousness? Is it the total average of all members (or each
                    circle?) or is it only as great as its weakest link!

                    > *** The smallest denominator? :-)

                    Me: It could be. People do tend to pull others down to their level
                    or sometimes the awakening is that those one thought were on a lower
                    level were actually on the same or higher level! Klemp via his
                    deceit is definitely on a lower level of consciousness than many of
                    his Eck followers!

                    ***Are there different groups of consciousness and Not one Group
                    Consciousness within Eckankar? If there are different groups of
                    consciousness, as well as birds with individual consciousness, there
                    would certainly be different "flocks of birds" within a religion or
                    society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the head bird look like that brings
                    all of these other flocks together... (HK!) and what makes one bird
                    greater than another?

                    > *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
                    says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
                    bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
                    who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
                    to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
                    stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
                    because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
                    could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
                    the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

                    Me: If Klemp takes on karma for people then why do bad things happen
                    to Eckists? If it's because they need the experiences then where is
                    the karma that HK is supposedly taking on? I know that Klump likes
                    to have it both ways, but how stupid are Eckists?! The woman that
                    freaked out at the 2005 EWWS is a perfect example of no Mahanta
                    protection or guidance. Where was her Mahanta? Or, is this an
                    example of her learning through experience? If so, then how does
                    this differ with everyone else in the world learning through their
                    experiences? And, (according to Eckankar) doesn't the Kal control
                    Karma and the all powerful Mahanta only steps in on occasion?!
                    Eckists' brains have atrophied!

                    ***Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made
                    up of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
                    well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
                    flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
                    of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
                    these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
                    muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
                    beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
                    though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
                    see your true Master!

                    > *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather
                    pecking each other! LOL!

                    Me: Yes there is a lot of that (and more!) going on within Eckankar.

                    ***Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
                    have leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
                    higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
                    he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
                    defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
                    knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

                    > *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
                    man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                    the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                    has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

                    Me: It does seem like he still hangs onto some of the rituals (and
                    expanding on them) like the spiritual exercises three times a day.
                    There's a lot of inner focus too. Most Eckists who reject the outer
                    RESA structure, EWS (ECK Worship Service), guidelines, trainings,
                    Vahana/missionary work, donations, etc. focus on the inner, mostly,
                    as well.

                    ***B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
                    of Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
                    Icke; The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea;
                    the con of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

                    > *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ...
                    you have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons
                    will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who
                    seek development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
                    and "lower" planes.

                    Me: It's good until one sees the nutty conspiracy posts along with
                    the Eckists attacking people. There's just too much permissiveness
                    by Ford. Even freedom requires responsibility or a safe environment
                    to protect those from the irresponsible few.

                    ***These are just a few of the things that they have shared on
                    TS/HCS. They also plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts.
                    Yet, with all of this along with their rudeness and intolerance to
                    the insights of others, always needing to be right, putting others
                    down for having a different POV from theirs, flattering to gain
                    support, always having to have the last word, and their
                    passive/aggressiveness towards Ford... Ford still gives them free
                    reign as leaders on his BBs and as his HCS Canadian Representatives!
                    Fascinating!!! LOL!

                    > *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say!
                    I can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
                    pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

                    Me: Yes, vanity and ego (power over others) is part of the game that
                    was learned and rewarded while in Eckankar.


                    ***Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
                    Souls with many different points of view on various subjects. This
                    is also why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks
                    that if people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that
                    this will help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what
                    is not. But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
                    Eckankar had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft,
                    and the blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
                    advantage over others then how does Ford think that these people are
                    capable of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
                    consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

                    > *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as
                    best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
                    personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
                    from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                    position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                    well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                    wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                    Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                    wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                    course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                    is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                    ---- snip ----

                    Me: Well said!

                    ***Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
                    that it is nice to be able to share things with like minded
                    individuals and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

                    > *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
                    here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
                    just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
                    course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
                    why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
                    beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
                    bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
                    is clear in my opinion.

                    Me: There is censorship on TS/HCS. I've seen one of Mario's (not too
                    long ago) deleted after it went up. It must have been very nasty for
                    Ford to have done that! I've also seen....... in posts which
                    indicate that something was removed. However, I'm more amazed at the
                    passive/aggressive posts towards Ford, from Mario and keyed in by
                    Betty, that Ford allows to go up! And, why does he allow B&M (his
                    HCS reps) to support Twitchell and The Tiger's Fang?!

                    ***However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
                    members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
                    and volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
                    any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
                    it shouldn't be!

                    > *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
                    brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
                    are very important to the organization.

                    Me: I would say that they have driven off more members (and will
                    continue to) than those who have joined (if any) due to them. I
                    would also question the quality (consciousness and goals) of members
                    joining due to Betty and Mario's influence.

                    ***Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer their
                    members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
                    illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
                    members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

                    > *** This is what comes of it ...

                    Me: There are no standards, but what kind of test could there be for
                    membership? Should there be a yearly review? An oversight committee?
                    LOL! Eckankar probably has so many of these that just spy on people
                    and project this or that as busy work and distraction for the higher
                    ups to feel important to the Mahanta's mission! LOL!

                    ***This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher
                    quality of consciousness to their members because to do so they
                    wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring
                    conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS
                    will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

                    > ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
                    really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
                    achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
                    me. :-))


                    Me: Me too! I hope that this site is helping people to see this and
                    to feel free to share their experiences and insights.

                    Prometheus
                  • mishmisha9
                    Hi, Ingrid and All! Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to interject with a few comments! : ) Ingrid wrote: I always like what Sharon
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi, Ingrid and All!

                      Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
                      interject with a few comments! : )

                      Ingrid wrote:
                      I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
                      out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                      the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                      has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

                      Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
                      Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
                      with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
                      after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
                      any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
                      eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
                      contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
                      Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                      like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                      letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
                      Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
                      see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
                      jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.

                      ######

                      Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
                      quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
                      myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
                      the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
                      America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

                      Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
                      view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
                      other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
                      people who seek development outside themselves and still think
                      in "higher" and "lower" planes.

                      Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
                      would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
                      others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
                      conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
                      videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
                      of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
                      manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
                      letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
                      video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
                      over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
                      someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
                      I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
                      Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
                      who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
                      to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
                      I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
                      have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
                      does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
                      down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
                      Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
                      circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
                      outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
                      points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
                      different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
                      have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
                      lost.

                      You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
                      open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
                      difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
                      have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
                      have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
                      advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
                      the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
                      As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
                      that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
                      intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
                      Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
                      want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
                      people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
                      uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
                      to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
                      alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
                      movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
                      thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
                      attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
                      be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
                      of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
                      therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
                      time! : )


                      ###############

                      Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
                      life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
                      on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
                      lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                      position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                      well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                      wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                      Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                      wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                      course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                      is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?

                      Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
                      learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
                      unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )

                      ############

                      Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
                      anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
                      discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
                      restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
                      Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
                      BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
                      What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
                      then everything is clear in my opinion.

                      Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
                      It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
                      that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
                      administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
                      incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
                      I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
                      It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
                      means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
                      views of others.

                      Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
                      try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
                      loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
                      consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
                      ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!


                      Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )

                      Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
                      have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
                      they are very important to the organization.


                      Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
                      that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
                      more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
                      brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
                      out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
                      not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.


                      Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
                      offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                      shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
                      quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

                      Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
                      in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
                      might?" Which do you choose?

                      Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
                      offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
                      do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
                      only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
                      why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

                      Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
                      power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
                      organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
                      but that's only me. :-))

                      Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
                      problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
                      eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
                      Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
                      I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
                      I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
                      organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
                      have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
                      stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
                      confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
                      manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.

                      Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
                      life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )

                      Mish
                    • Freefrom
                      I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without someone imposing their ideas
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 12, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about
                        spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without
                        someone imposing their ideas onto me as some kind of dogma or teaching
                        per se. AS Mish stated: "I enjoy being free to allow
                        > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                        > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                        > letting It to flow naturally."

                        Freefrom


                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                        <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi, Ingrid and All!
                        >
                        > Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
                        > interject with a few comments! : )
                        >
                        > Ingrid wrote:
                        > I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
                        > out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                        > the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                        > has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
                        >
                        > Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
                        > Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
                        > with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
                        > after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
                        > any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
                        > eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
                        > contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
                        > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                        > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                        > letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
                        > Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
                        > see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
                        > jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.
                        >
                        > ######
                        >
                        > Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
                        > quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
                        > myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
                        > the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
                        > America: the con of Paul Twitchell!
                        >
                        > Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
                        > view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
                        > other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
                        > people who seek development outside themselves and still think
                        > in "higher" and "lower" planes.
                        >
                        > Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
                        > would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
                        > others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
                        > conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
                        > videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
                        > of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
                        > manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
                        > letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
                        > video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
                        > over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
                        > someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
                        > I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
                        > Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
                        > who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
                        > to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
                        > I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
                        > have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
                        > does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
                        > down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
                        > Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
                        > circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
                        > outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
                        > points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
                        > different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
                        > have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
                        > lost.
                        >
                        > You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
                        > open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
                        > difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
                        > have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
                        > have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
                        > advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
                        > the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
                        > As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
                        > that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
                        > intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
                        > Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
                        > want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
                        > people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
                        > uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
                        > to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
                        > alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
                        > movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
                        > thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
                        > attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
                        > be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
                        > of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
                        > therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
                        > time! : )
                        >
                        >
                        > ###############
                        >
                        > Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
                        > life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
                        > on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
                        > lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                        > position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                        > well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                        > wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                        > Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                        > wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                        > course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                        > is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                        >
                        > Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
                        > learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
                        > unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )
                        >
                        > ############
                        >
                        > Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
                        > anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
                        > discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
                        > restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
                        > Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
                        > BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
                        > What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
                        > then everything is clear in my opinion.
                        >
                        > Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
                        > It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
                        > that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
                        > administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
                        > incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
                        > I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
                        > It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
                        > means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
                        > views of others.
                        >
                        > Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
                        > try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
                        > loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
                        > consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
                        > ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!
                        >
                        >
                        > Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )
                        >
                        > Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
                        > have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
                        > they are very important to the organization.
                        >
                        >
                        > Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
                        > that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
                        > more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
                        > brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
                        > out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
                        > not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.
                        >
                        >
                        > Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
                        > offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                        > shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
                        > quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!
                        >
                        > Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
                        > in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
                        > might?" Which do you choose?
                        >
                        > Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
                        > offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
                        > do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
                        > only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
                        > why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!
                        >
                        > Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
                        > power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
                        > organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
                        > but that's only me. :-))
                        >
                        > Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
                        > problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
                        > eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
                        > Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
                        > I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
                        > I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
                        > organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
                        > have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
                        > stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
                        > confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
                        > manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.
                        >
                        > Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
                        > life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )
                        >
                        > Mish
                        >
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