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Re: The "Satsang" of Twitchell's Distortions

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  • mishmisha9
    Hi, All! Freefrom is making a good point about passive-aggressive behavior. It is a very manipulative/control technique which as he says is used by many, and
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 6, 2005
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      Hi, All!

      Freefrom is making a good point about passive-aggressive behavior.
      It is a very manipulative/control technique which as he says is used
      by many, and is readily apparent in eckankar with the establishment
      of the RESA structure under his lordship Harold. It is a long,
      delusional path with a certain few directing the herd and keeping
      them locked in!

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
      <eckchains@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Yes, good one Prometheus!
      >
      > What is interesting about both of these so called ultimate paths to
      > the highest Godhead is that it is all about believing. THese are
      not
      > really paths of exploration or any true spiritual inqiry or real
      > understanding. It's all about memorizing what you are being told to
      > believe. It is a fictionalized dogma with some truth possibly
      mixed in
      > here and there, just like any religion out there.

      Mish: What is taught is self-brainwashing. Singing HU several times
      a day; focusing on a photo, either real or in your mind, of HK and
      other eck masters. These images pop up into one's mind, because one
      has created those images, and thus, they become "real."

      >
      > Also, I have been realizing lately, that one of the ways that these
      > groups control people into behaving and believing the group think,
      is
      > through their own Passive Aggressive behavior, that is shunning or
      > ignoring, or getting back at those who question too much. Passive
      > aggressive behavior is indirect aggression, like not giving certain
      > persons an initiation, or exclusion, or subtly turning the group
      > against you or gossiping behind your back, etc.. THis is often a
      > course of action among people who are taught to not handle
      conflicts in a direct and assertive manner.

      Mish: Yes, this is cruel behavior that many do not realize that they
      are inflicting on others, because it is "taught" to be appropriate.
      Gossiping behind a person's back as some HI's especially do is a way
      of keeping informed about others and making judgments which can lead
      to the passive-aggression behavior that Freefrom points out. Would
      you believe that I was shunned while in the org? : )



      In eckankult, being direct, honest,
      > or assertive is often automatically labeled angry and hateful. THis
      > then also leads to guilt feelings for those who may be feeling some
      > resentment as a natural response to such dishonesty. Klemp can be
      very
      > passive aggressive and is very good at smearing those who disagree
      > with, but he will never directly debate anyone who may have a
      > differing point of view. After all, he is the ultimate authority on
      > the planet, the Son of God, God on earth, Mahanta, blah, blah,
      blah.

      Mish: Yes, Harold doesn't say anything of substance! His personality
      is pretty dead too--anger shines through at times, but not much
      else. I read in one of his transcripts that he (HK) said eckists
      would be foolish to believe everything he said. I threw all the
      transcripst out, regettably, as I would like to cite his words
      exactly. I appreciated that he did state this as it really set me
      free to pick and choose; however, when I mentioned this to a couple
      of fanatical eckist friends, they had a big problem with the idea
      because all that Harold ever spoke was golden to them, and they
      seemed to have missed this clever disclaimer that was interjected in
      this particular HK transcript. They were very angry with me--
      especially since I was a lower initiate.

      I have come to realize the reason Harold chuckles and laughs so much
      during his talks is because he must find it amazing how his chelas
      are falling for his lies! He must think that "his audiences" contain
      the most stupid of stupidist people in the world. It surely must
      make him feel much smarter to con so many who so readily hang onto
      every word he speaks! : )


      > What a joke. ;-) Once people see him for the fool he and Gross and
      > Twitch really were/are, then they will not be fooled themselves.
      THe
      > trick for me, is to start viewing the understanding of life and
      > existence as an inqiry with an open mind. THen dogma is seen for
      what
      > it is, a potential trap.
      >

      Mish: I like your "trick," Freefrom, much better than those of the
      eckankar leadership. Our minds are our tools for sorting out our
      lives and the meaning of our existence. Handing this gift over to
      the domination of others, such as Twitchel, Gross and Klemp, is
      truly foolish and a hazzardous misstep. It is too bad that eckists
      are being manipulated into trying to rope in more Souls to fall
      victim to this scam.



      Prometheus wrote:
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello All,
      > >
      > > I'll bet all of this sounds very familiar to Eckists. Yes
      this "Path
      > > of the Masters is slow and comparatively easy" (they claim) and
      > > chelas attain "the fifth region called Sach Khand... in much
      less
      > > time." So, this religion sounds like the most direct path (and
      an
      > > Easy Way, LOL!) to God-Realization just like Eckankar! However
      it is
      > > slow. Then again, how fast is Eckankar? Initiations use to be
      fast
      > > but Klemp has slowed them down. It now takes 15-18 years to
      reach
      > > the Fifth. And most 7ths need at least 25 years as a 7th to be
      > > considered for the 8th. Just look at S.B.'s old buddy F.B.!
      She's
      > > still an "outer" 7th but in her mind's eye she's an 8th or maybe
      a
      > > 9th, or maybe a 33rd! LOL! Delusion and ego are alive and well
      in
      > > the Eck communities!!!
      > >
      > > Anyway, it's all fun and games for these Living "Masters" isn't
      it?!
      > > Pity, that people can't see beyond the lifelong codependence
      that
      > > they preach. However, at least we can see where Twitchell got
      his
      > > ideas for Spiritual Freedom or Liberation. It's just too bad
      that he
      > > took his personal Cliffhanger (Soul seeking God) approach and
      made
      > > it into a vocation. But, if we look at P.T.'s past (a liar and
      > > fiction writer) and his circumstances (meeting Gail) and
      > > associations (L. Ron Hubbard, etc. and his chastisement by his
      > > master Kirpal Singh) we can see why Twitchell did what he did.
      If we
      > > look at Gross and Klemp we can see why they were so willing to
      take
      > > over and continue the Eckankar scam as LEM/Mahantas.
      > >
      > > I said, fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you...
      Mr.
      > > Klemp, but this should normally be once for him and twice for
      me.
      > > And I will admit that after my orthodox religious experience,
      and
      > > TM, etc., and I should have been more cautious with Eckankar.
      But, I
      > > saw Eckankar in a class by itself and threw caution to the wind
      (of
      > > change?). Still, it was a struggle to close my eyes to some of
      the
      > > behaviour, the written contradictions and confusing speak, and
      to
      > > Klemp's moronish and shallow stories. And, I especially disliked
      > > what I knew to be embellished and fictional stories by Eckists
      that
      > > they "shared" in seminar talks, in Eck publications, and in
      > > IRO/HIROs to Klemp. Oh well, when the chela is ready the Master
      will
      > > appear... in the mirror!
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      > >


      Mish: I threw caution to the wind, too, when I joined up! I'm still
      shaking my head about doing that. I don't blame eckankar--I blame
      myself for being so easily conned. I never was comfortable with the
      teachings, though, and I saw a lot of crazy stuff going on--
      especially at seminars. As a newcomer, I was told to be careful not
      to try to "understand" too much in the teachings too quickly or I
      could become sick with spiritual indigestion! This is a good
      silencing technique, don't you think? Partner it with the law of
      silence, and the leverage of getting your initiations in a timely
      manner, well, . . . there you have it, control and dominance by the
      few for the benefit of the few! There is nothing spiritual about
      misleading people and giving them false hope. :(

      Mish
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Mish, ***Just thought I d comment more as well. mishmisha wrote: Freefrom is making a good point about passive-aggressive behavior. It is a very
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 7, 2005
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        Hi Mish,
        ***Just thought I'd comment more as well.


        mishmisha wrote:

        Freefrom is making a good point about passive-aggressive behavior.
        It is a very manipulative/control technique which as he says is used
        by many, and is readily apparent in eckankar with the establishment
        of the RESA structure under his lordship Harold. It is a long,
        delusional path with a certain few directing the herd and keeping
        them locked in!

        ***Yes, this is true. Also, passive/aggressive behaviour is a
        defensive/survival mechanism used by those who feel trapped, weak,
        or helpless in submissive positions by those in "superior" positions
        or those who have power over them and control of their careers or
        destinies (initiations). This passive/aggressive behaviour is
        usually seen in the workplace, but can also occur in families, in
        religions, and everyday situations.





        "Freefrom" eckchains wrote:

        What is interesting about both of these so called ultimate paths to
        the highest Godhead is that it is all about believing. THese are not
        really paths of exploration or any true spiritual inqiry or real
        understanding. It's all about memorizing what you are being told to
        believe. It is a fictionalized dogma with some truth possibly mixed
        in here and there, just like any religion out there.

        Mish: What is taught is self-brainwashing. Singing HU several times
        a day; focusing on a photo, either real or in your mind, of HK and
        other eck masters. These images pop up into one's mind, because one
        has created those images, and thus, they become "real."

        ***Yes, Klemp is trying to change Eckists by making them Less
        emotional (feeling & loving) and Less mental (critical thinking) by
        stressing the Negative aspects of emotion and thought. But HK also
        confuses Eckists and keeps them off balance by implying they
        are "heart people" when the emotional/Astral is seen as lower and
        Negative for Soul.



        Freefrom: Also, I have been realizing lately, that one of the ways
        that these groups control people into behaving and believing the
        group think, is through their own Passive Aggressive behavior, that
        is shunning or ignoring, or getting back at those who question too
        much. Passive aggressive behavior is indirect aggression, like not
        giving certain persons an initiation, or exclusion, or subtly
        turning the group against you or gossiping behind your back, etc..
        THis is often a course of action among people who are taught to not
        handle conflicts in a direct and assertive manner.

        Mish: Yes, this is cruel behavior that many do not realize that they
        are inflicting on others, because it is "taught" to be appropriate.
        Gossiping behind a person's back as some HI's especially do is a way
        of keeping informed about others and making judgments which can lead
        to the passive-aggression behavior that Freefrom points out. Would
        you believe that I was shunned while in the org? : )

        ***yes, there is a lot of manipulation (locally) with the Eck
        Initiations, especially, in the past twenty years under Klemp!
        Eckists now have to jump through many more hoops (trainings) to
        achieve those Higher Initiations and powerful "Settler" titles (such
        as ESA and RESA)! Personality, friendship, and volunteer efforts
        (and those IRO/HIROs to ESC) are key factors. Oh, don't forget
        silence... key your mouth shut and never complain about anything or
        anyone!




        Freefrom: In eckankult, being direct, honest, or assertive is often
        automatically labeled angry and hateful. THis then also leads to
        guilt feelings for those who may be feeling some resentment as a
        natural response to such dishonesty. Klemp can be very passive
        aggressive and is very good at smearing those who disagree with, but
        he will never directly debate anyone who may have a differing point
        of view. After all, he is the ultimate authority on the planet, the
        Son of God, God on earth, Mahanta, blah, blah, blah.

        Mish: Yes, Harold doesn't say anything of substance! His personality
        is pretty dead too--anger shines through at times, but not much
        else. I read in one of his transcripts that he (HK) said eckists
        would be foolish to believe everything he said. I threw all the
        transcripst out, regettably, as I would like to cite his words
        exactly. I appreciated that he did state this as it really set me
        free to pick and choose; however, when I mentioned this to a couple
        of fanatical eckist friends, they had a big problem with the idea
        because all that Harold ever spoke was golden to them, and they
        seemed to have missed this clever disclaimer that was interjected in
        this particular HK transcript. They were very angry with me--
        especially since I was a lower initiate.

        I have come to realize the reason Harold chuckles and laughs so much
        during his talks is because he must find it amazing how his chelas
        are falling for his lies! He must think that "his audiences" contain
        the most stupid of stupidist people in the world. It surely must
        make him feel much smarter to con so many who so readily hang onto
        every word he speaks! : )

        ***I agree with all of what both of you have shared. Klemp displays
        an insidious side to his character at times. Eckists should do an
        experiment and analyse his words with Neutrality... but that would
        be impossible wouldn't it! (Try his 2005 EWWS talk on the topic of
        only having "love" for relationships). Still, the attempt to read
        his words with a neutral attitude would show an individual a
        comparative difference and indicate the degree of prejudice and
        brainwashing that has taken place. This would be a real Wake-up Call!




        Freefrom: What a joke. ;-) Once people see him for the fool he and
        Gross and Twitch really were/are, then they will not be fooled
        themselves. THe trick for me, is to start viewing the understanding
        of life and existence as an inqiry with an open mind. THen dogma is
        seen for what it is, a potential trap.


        Mish: I like your "trick," Freefrom, much better than those of the
        eckankar leadership. Our minds are our tools for sorting out our
        lives and the meaning of our existence. Handing this gift over to
        the domination of others, such as Twitchel, Gross and Klemp, is
        truly foolish and a hazzardous misstep. It is too bad that eckists
        are being manipulated into trying to rope in more Souls to fall
        victim to this scam.

        ***Yes, there is pressure and stress on the introverted and more
        private Eckists to become extroverted and public. Yhey have to take
        more trainings, give talks, conduct Eck Worship Services to qualify
        and be elligible for those positions and initiations. This is part
        of climbing that ladder, but it's more like a Merry-go-round and
        stretching out for that brass ring, or in this case the ring that is
        gold plated! The illusion is that the ring (goal) is solid gold and
        thus has great value. The initiations and positions have no
        spiritual value and are only control techniwues used by the
        hierarchy and leadership of another religious scam. This one is
        called Eckankar.



        Prometheus wrote:
        Hello All,
        I'll bet all of this sounds very familiar to Eckists. Yes this "Path
        of the Masters is slow and comparatively easy" (they claim) and
        chelas attain "the fifth region called Sach Khand... in much less
        time." So, this religion sounds like the most direct path (and
        an Easy Way, LOL!) to God-Realization just like Eckankar! However
        it is slow. Then again, how fast is Eckankar? Initiations use to be
        fast but Klemp has slowed them down. It now takes 15-18 years to
        reach the Fifth. And most 7ths need at least 25 years as a 7th to be
        considered for the 8th. Just look at S.B.'s old buddy F.B.! She's
        still an "outer" 7th but in her mind's eye she's an 8th or maybe a
        9th, or maybe a 33rd! LOL! Delusion and ego are alive and well in
        the Eck communities!!!

        Anyway, it's all fun and games for these Living "Masters" isn't
        it?! Pity, that people can't see beyond the lifelong codependence
        that they preach. However, at least we can see where Twitchell got
        his ideas for Spiritual Freedom or Liberation. It's just too bad
        that he took his personal Cliffhanger (Soul seeking God) approach
        and made it into a vocation. But, if we look at P.T.'s past (a liar
        and fiction writer) and his circumstances (meeting Gail) and
        associations (L. Ron Hubbard, etc. and his chastisement by his
        master Kirpal Singh) we can see why Twitchell did what he did. If we
        look at Gross and Klemp we can see why they were so willing to take
        over and continue the Eckankar scam as LEM/Mahantas.

        I said, fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you... Mr.
        Klemp, but this should normally be once for him and twice for me.
        And I will admit that after my orthodox religious experience, and
        TM, etc., and I should have been more cautious with Eckankar. But, I
        saw Eckankar in a class by itself and threw caution to the wind (of
        change?). Still, it was a struggle to close my eyes to some of the
        behaviour, the written contradictions and confusing speak, and to
        Klemp's moronish and shallow stories. And, I especially disliked
        what I knew to be embellished and fictional stories by Eckists that
        they "shared" in seminar talks, in Eck publications, and in
        IRO/HIROs to Klemp. Oh well, when the chela is ready the Master will
        appear... in the mirror!

        Prometheus



        Mish: I threw caution to the wind, too, when I joined up! I'm still
        shaking my head about doing that. I don't blame eckankar--I blame
        myself for being so easily conned. I never was comfortable with the
        teachings, though, and I saw a lot of crazy stuff going on--
        especially at seminars. As a newcomer, I was told to be careful not
        to try to "understand" too much in the teachings too quickly or I
        could become sick with spiritual indigestion! This is a good
        silencing technique, don't you think? Partner it with the law of
        silence, and the leverage of getting your initiations in a timely
        manner, well, . . . there you have it, control and dominance by the
        few for the benefit of the few! There is nothing spiritual about
        misleading people and giving them false hope. :(

        ***True! When I first discovered Eckankar I thought it was an
        advanced path because of the detailed explanations I got in regards
        to karma. However, these details of karma are all found in
        Twichell's reference book, "The Path of the Masters." What was
        funny, when I first joined, I was having more Spiritual experiences
        and dreams than were the long time Eckists! Of course, they said
        that they had the guidance and protection of the Mahanta and that
        was supposed to mean something I guess. Christians think they have
        the guidance and protection of Jesus! WOW! Living masters, like
        Popes, really make a difference! LOL! Why didn't we Eckists learn
        from the past deceptions of other religions? I know! It was because
        Eckankar was Not a religion! It was a Spiritual Path and the most
        direct one to God-Realization! We knew this because this is what we
        were told and why would anyone lie to us? Did our former religions
        lie to us? Why did we trust them... because our parents did! Now we
        can see the trap can't we... we trusted that Eckankar was different
        and Not even a religion!

        Prometheus
      • mishmisha9
        Mish wrote: There is nothing spiritual about misleading people and giving them false hope. :( Prometheus replied: ***True! When I first discovered Eckankar I
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 7, 2005
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          Mish wrote:
          There is nothing spiritual about
          misleading people and giving them false hope. :(

          Prometheus replied:
          ***True! When I first discovered Eckankar I thought it was an
          advanced path because of the detailed explanations I got in regards
          to karma. However, these details of karma are all found in
          Twichell's reference book, "The Path of the Masters." What was
          funny, when I first joined, I was having more Spiritual experiences
          and dreams than were the long time Eckists! Of course, they said
          that they had the guidance and protection of the Mahanta and that
          was supposed to mean something I guess. Christians think they have
          the guidance and protection of Jesus! WOW! Living masters, like
          Popes, really make a difference! LOL! Why didn't we Eckists learn
          from the past deceptions of other religions? I know! It was because
          Eckankar was Not a religion! It was a Spiritual Path and the most
          direct one to God-Realization! We knew this because this is what we
          were told and why would anyone lie to us? Did our former religions
          lie to us? Why did we trust them... because our parents did! Now we
          can see the trap can't we... we trusted that Eckankar was different
          and Not even a religion!

          Mish: It is interesting how Eckankar is claimed to be ancient wisdom
          for today, which supposedly resurfaced when Twitch made it up in
          1965. LOL! Eckankar is advertised as the most direct path to God and
          thus, this claim pulls people in--individuals who do not want to
          miss the opportunity to achieve God-realization in this lifetime. It
          seems harmless at first, but looking at the modern history of
          eckankar, one can see how it has become more demanding and more
          controlling over time, especially under the leadership of Klemp who
          set up the RESA structure to keep chelas behaving and working for
          him. Klemp has even turned eckankar from a spiritual path into a
          religion which resembles his Luthern background/education. Making
          eckankar a religion also makes it tax exempt, and since the temple
          is in Minnesota, it's accounts/bookkeeping are not available for
          public scrutiny--it is all so very conveniently secretive.

          IMO, religions are just orgs that many people feel comfortable to
          hold onto. They don't want to go it alone, so they hook up with a
          group, surrendering their spiritual freedom. How many times have we
          as eckists heard the oft repeated word "surrender?" Eckists are
          taught to surrender, to surrender to the mahanta, etc. What does
          surrender mean in truth? Webster's dictionary defines it as
          this: "to give oneself up, as into the power of another; submit or
          yield. . ."

          Now, why in the world would anyone want to surrender--isn't it much
          better to never give up and to never surrender! When you surrender,
          you give up control of yourself and possibly your destiny.

          I keep reading comments by eckists and former eckists who continue
          to believe that they learned so much from the eckankar experience.
          Some "idiot" former eckists even believe that those who continue to
          point out the lies and deceptions in eckankar in such a forum as
          this one are angry individuals who cannot move on with life. This is
          so far from the truth. I'm not angry--I just feel an obligation to
          keep the real truth about eckankar exposed so that others who are in
          the org might take the step to leave, and it might keep newbies from
          joining. Eckankar is not a necessary adventure and its teachings do
          not contain anything special for anyone who's been there to need to
          give thanks for or value it. Whatever one has learned about
          spiritual matters while participating in eckankar has been despite
          the trappings of eckankar. I think it is so foolish for an
          individual, as I read recently on HCS, to state that those of us who
          are sharing the negative truths about eckankar did not learn
          anything from the teachings, stating this as though learning nothing
          from the eck teachings is a terrible thing. LOL! Well, I did learn
          some things about eckankar--I learned about lies, I learned about
          ego driven people who like to control others, and I learned what a
          waste of time it is, among other things. I think it is unfortunate
          that some former eckists still want to cling to the teachings of
          eckankar, to continue to praise Paul Twitchell and quote him, and
          even HK, etc. It seems to me that these individuals have not learned
          much and certainly remain stuck. I really wonder if these former
          eckists are regretting that they left and would like to return--of
          course, if they could go back into the org with their former H.I.
          initiations intact--but of course, that would never happen as HK has
          clearly stated in a recent Mystic World Wisdom Note that someone
          returning would lose all levels of initiations and be put back as a
          first initiate. Then, one would have to wonder if one would even
          progress from there--I'm sure the shunning and black balling would
          be all so obvious. I don't believe that eckists would welcome
          such "traitors" back with open arms! But I suppose if you hang
          around in new groups and believe that eckankar was a necessary
          stepping stone to greater consciousness, one would be delusional
          enough to think the eck initiations have not been lost at all, and
          one has risen even higher--way above the rest of the spiritual
          seekers--and one would feel very lofty indeed. One might even think
          that they are in a more joyful place than say those of us who keep
          on with a responsibility of calling eckankar for what it is, a fraud
          and deceiver of faith. : ) IMO, no one has gone beyond or even left
          eckankar when one continues to praise its teachings. One has not
          learned that those teachings were full of lies and deceptions which
          actually took the spiritual seeker off his path to God rather than
          showing a more direct route!

          Mish
        • prometheus_973
          I agree with Mish that Eckists like Klemp s cohorts on HU-Chat and Chela-Chat or Ruben and other subversive/undercover double agent Eckists, and some former
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 8, 2005
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            I agree with Mish that Eckists like Klemp's cohorts on HU-Chat and
            Chela-Chat or Ruben and other subversive/undercover double agent
            Eckists, and some former Eckists (who in essence do the same), such
            as Mario & Betty, on TS/HCS, all continue to mislead people with the
            Eck-and-Twitch-crap. I really wonder just how far Ford can take his
            Great Work (Teachings) with the likes of B&M! Not far is my guess
            since he has had them with him from the beginning. However, I really
            wonder what qualifies Ford as a better teacher than I AM for MySelf
            or for anyone?!

            Prometheus




            Mish wrote:
            There is nothing spiritual about misleading people and giving them
            false hope. :(

            I keep reading comments by eckists and former eckists who continue
            to believe that they learned so much from the eckankar experience.
            Some "idiot" former eckists even believe that those who continue to
            point out the lies and deceptions in eckankar in such a forum as
            this one are angry individuals who cannot move on with life. This is
            so far from the truth. I'm not angry--I just feel an obligation to
            keep the real truth about eckankar exposed so that others who are in
            the org might take the step to leave, and it might keep newbies from
            joining. Eckankar is not a necessary adventure and its teachings do
            not contain anything special for anyone who's been there to need to
            give thanks for or value it. Whatever one has learned about
            spiritual matters while participating in eckankar has been despite
            the trappings of eckankar.

            I think it is so foolish for an individual, as I read recently on
            HCS, to state that those of us who are sharing the negative truths
            about eckankar did not learn anything from the teachings, stating
            this as though learning nothing from the eck teachings is a terrible
            thing. LOL! Well, I did learn some things about eckankar--I learned
            about lies, I learned about ego driven people who like to control
            others, and I learned what a waste of time it is, among other
            things. I think it is unfortunate that some former eckists still
            want to cling to the teachings of eckankar, to continue to praise
            Paul Twitchell and quote him, and even HK, etc. It seems to me that
            these individuals have not learned much and certainly remain stuck.

            I really wonder if these former eckists are regretting that they
            left and would like to return--of course, if they could go back into
            the org with their former H.I. initiations intact--but of course,
            that would never happen as HK has clearly stated in a recent Mystic
            World Wisdom Note that someone returning would lose all levels of
            initiations and be put back as a first initiate. Then, one would
            have to wonder if one would even progress from there--I'm sure the
            shunning and black balling would be all so obvious. I don't believe
            that eckists would welcome such "traitors" back with open arms!

            But I suppose if you hang around in new groups and believe that
            eckankar was a necessary stepping stone to greater consciousness,
            one would be delusional enough to think the eck initiations have not
            been lost at all, and one has risen even higher--way above the rest
            of the spiritual seekers--and one would feel very lofty indeed. One
            might even think that they are in a more joyful place than say those
            of us who keep on with a responsibility of calling eckankar for what
            it is, a fraud and deceiver of faith. : )

            IMO, no one has gone beyond or even left eckankar when one continues
            to praise its teachings. One has not learned that those teachings
            were full of lies and deceptions which actually took the spiritual
            seeker off his path to God rather than showing a more direct route!

            Mish
          • Freefrom
            Hi mish and all, Yes I read some similar posts at HCS, maybe the same ones, about how those who critisize eckankar supposedly did not learn what they were
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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              Hi mish and all,

              Yes I read some similar posts at HCS, maybe the same ones, about how
              those who critisize eckankar supposedly did not learn what they were
              supposed to have learned from the Kult, and that is to remain silent.
              I can only guess as to what they are talking about. Why are they so
              defensive about eckankult? It is almost as if they are saying that
              they really enjoyed and learned a lot from the spiritual abuse they
              got. Spiritual abuse is therefore a necessary step toward spiritual
              enlightenment? People who really believe this, IMO, will be more
              likely to feel justified in abusing others in a similar way that they
              were abused. I say watch out and run away as fast as you can from such
              persons who probably have con tendencies, that is they are dishonest.
              They would probably think it is also just fine to pay a whore to
              sexually abuse them as well! Maybe some whips and chains,etc.lol THis
              is crap. As far as I can tell, they are still eckists. They would be
              better off to just admit it. As far as being angry, so what, but it is
              more annoying than anything. THey seem to be defending eckankar more
              than anything. It's like they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour.
              I'm sure klemp types would be very pleased with their attitude, very
              very pleased! Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck
              trolls posting. LOL

              Freefrom

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
              <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
              >
              ................snip

              I keep reading comments by eckists and former eckists who continue
              to believe that they learned so much from the eckankar experience.
              Some "idiot" former eckists even believe that those who continue to
              point out the lies and deceptions in eckankar in such a forum as
              this one are angry individuals who cannot move on with life. This is
              so far from the truth. I'm not angry--I just feel an obligation to
              keep the real truth about eckankar exposed so that others who are in
              the org might take the step to leave, and it might keep newbies from
              joining. Eckankar is not a necessary adventure and its teachings do
              not contain anything special for anyone who's been there to need to
              give thanks for or value it. Whatever one has learned about
              spiritual matters while participating in eckankar has been despite
              the trappings of eckankar. I think it is so foolish for an
              individual, as I read recently on HCS, to state that those of us who
              are sharing the negative truths about eckankar did not learn
              anything from the teachings, stating this as though learning nothing
              from the eck teachings is a terrible thing. LOL! Well, I did learn
              some things about eckankar--I learned about lies, I learned about
              ego driven people who like to control others, and I learned what a
              waste of time it is, among other things. I think it is unfortunate
              that some former eckists still want to cling to the teachings of
              eckankar, to continue to praise Paul Twitchell and quote him, and
              even HK, etc. It seems to me that these individuals have not learned
              much and certainly remain stuck. I really wonder if these former
              eckists are regretting that they left and would like to return--of
              course, if they could go back into the org with their former H.I.
              initiations intact--but of course, that would never happen as HK has
              clearly stated in a recent Mystic World Wisdom Note that someone
              returning would lose all levels of initiations and be put back as a
              first initiate. Then, one would have to wonder if one would even
              progress from there--I'm sure the shunning and black balling would
              be all so obvious. I don't believe that eckists would welcome
              such "traitors" back with open arms! But I suppose if you hang
              around in new groups and believe that eckankar was a necessary
              stepping stone to greater consciousness, one would be delusional
              enough to think the eck initiations have not been lost at all, and
              one has risen even higher--way above the rest of the spiritual
              seekers--and one would feel very lofty indeed. One might even think
              that they are in a more joyful place than say those of us who keep
              on with a responsibility of calling eckankar for what it is, a fraud
              and deceiver of faith. : ) IMO, no one has gone beyond or even left
              eckankar when one continues to praise its teachings. One has not
              learned that those teachings were full of lies and deceptions which
              actually took the spiritual seeker off his path to God rather than
              showing a more direct route!

              Mish
            • mishmisha9
              Freefrom wrote: THey seem to be defending eckankar more than anything. It s like they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I m sure klemp types would be
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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                Freefrom wrote:

                THey seem to be defending eckankar more> than anything. It's like
                they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I'm sure klemp types
                would be very pleased with their attitude, very very pleased!
                Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck trolls posting.
                LOL
                >
                > Freefrom
                >


                Mish replies:

                This is what happens when there is so much permissiveness on a site
                like HCS. Ford approves all posts and is open to allowing all
                thoughts and opinions which leaves HCS as scattered and unorganized
                as a group consciousness. It also permits posters to be "nasty" to
                one another as well--so in the end, the group is not very collective
                at all. Basically, it is an organization with no central belief as
                everything is "good." It reminds me of children being allowed to do
                anything without consequences. The parents do not take
                responsibility in parenting as it is an "anything goes" belief
                system. However, in the real world, it doesn't happen that way.

                It is unfortunate that Ford cannot get his band together. His focus
                on revealing the lies and deceptions in eckankar was a good
                beginning, but it has not gone anywhere since IMO! I think people
                just need to understand how they can be easily duped by religious
                cons, and beyond that they realize it is their Higher Self that
                leads them to God-realization. They don't need eckankar or any other
                religion to take them there, and they don't need HCS to "teach" them
                how to achieve this either. : )

                Mish
              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for granted such
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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                  Hello All,

                  This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think and
                  contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for
                  granted such as the group consciousness of: societies; religions;
                  organizations; communities.

                  Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
                  together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!) there are other
                  factors that either makes this statement true or inaccurate when it
                  comes to people. Is there a collective group consciousness in
                  Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual consciousness tuned into
                  its own specific frequency? With circles of initiation in Eckankar
                  perhaps it is viewed that the higher one goes the closer one is to
                  that perfect wave length. Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned
                  into 97.3 rather than 97.1 or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many
                  circles of initiation and minor inner initiations (inbetween the
                  recognized and final stage or confirmation to the major outer
                  initiations) how can there be a true group consciousness? However,
                  if there is then what is the level of this group consciousness? Is
                  it the total average of all members (or each circle?) or is it only
                  as great as its weakest link! Are there different groups of
                  consciousness and Not one Group Consciousness within Eckankar? If
                  there are different groups of consciousness, as well as birds with
                  individual consciousness, there would certainly be different "flocks
                  of birds" within a religion or society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the
                  head bird look like that brings all of these other flocks
                  together... (HK!) and what makes one bird greater than another?

                  Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made up
                  of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
                  well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
                  flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
                  of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
                  these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
                  muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
                  beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
                  though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
                  see your true Master!

                  Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he have
                  leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
                  higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
                  he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
                  defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
                  knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

                  B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of
                  Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke;
                  The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con
                  of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell! These are
                  just a few of the things that they have shared on TS/HCS. They also
                  plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts. Yet, with all of
                  this along with their rudeness and intolerance to the insights of
                  others, always needing to be right, putting others down for having a
                  different POV from theirs, flattering to gain support, always having
                  to have the last word, and their passive/aggressiveness towards
                  Ford... Ford still gives them free reign as leaders on his BBs and
                  as his HCS Canadian Representatives! Fascinating!!! LOL!

                  Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved Souls
                  with many different points of view on various subjects. This is also
                  why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks that if
                  people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that this will
                  help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what is not.
                  But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that Eckankar
                  had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft, and the
                  blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual advantage
                  over others then how does Ford think that these people are capable
                  of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
                  consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

                  This confuses me as to what kind of a "society" that Ford is
                  attempting to create. The Higher Consciousness Society, for me, is
                  more of an oxymoron when his "leaders" cannot exhibit even a meeting
                  of the mind with Ford's own philosophy and opinions that he has
                  expressed in his book! How can Ford support the views of his HCS
                  leaders, unless, he also sees these beliefs as valid and true!

                  Once again, we come back to the concept of group consciousness. It
                  is obvious that not everyone in a group sees eye-to-eye even with
                  the leader of the group let alone with other members. So, why don't
                  people find a group with those they have more in common with? Or
                  start their own group! People just want to belong to something it
                  seems. It's like belonging to a dysfunctional (normal) family. It
                  feels comfortable for each member knowing their role and having
                  similar expectations which gives the feeling of security and having
                  knowledge of (limited or imagined) control over life. Doesn't a
                  group consciousness really offer a false sense of security and
                  control over one's life?! Everyone's in agreement and the more the
                  merrier! And, if everyone in the world would agree that would really
                  make it so wouldn't it! Then there would be nothing to fear!

                  Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit that
                  it is nice to be able to share things with like minded individuals
                  and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

                  However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
                  members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money and
                  volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it any
                  wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored... it
                  shouldn't be! Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer
                  their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
                  illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
                  members rather than on the quality of consciousness! This is why
                  religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher quality of
                  consciousness to their members because to do so they wouldn't be
                  able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring conflict to
                  the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS will not be for
                  those seeking higher consciousness!

                  Prometheus




                  Freefrom wrote:

                  THey seem to be defending eckankar more> than anything. It's like
                  they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I'm sure klemp types
                  would be very pleased with their attitude, very very pleased!
                  Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck trolls posting.
                  LOL


                  Mish replies:

                  This is what happens when there is so much permissiveness on a site
                  like HCS. Ford approves all posts and is open to allowing all
                  thoughts and opinions which leaves HCS as scattered and unorganized
                  as a group consciousness. It also permits posters to be "nasty" to
                  one another as well--so in the end, the group is not very collective
                  at all. Basically, it is an organization with no central belief as
                  everything is "good." It reminds me of children being allowed to do
                  anything without consequences. The parents do not take
                  responsibility in parenting as it is an "anything goes" belief
                  system. However, in the real world, it doesn't happen that way.

                  It is unfortunate that Ford cannot get his band together. His focus
                  on revealing the lies and deceptions in eckankar was a good
                  beginning, but it has not gone anywhere since IMO! I think people
                  just need to understand how they can be easily duped by religious
                  cons, and beyond that they realize it is their Higher Self that
                  leads them to God-realization. They don't need eckankar or any other
                  religion to take them there, and they don't need HCS to "teach" them
                  how to achieve this either. : )
                • ctecvie
                  Hello Prometheus and all, ... *** That s what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it should be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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                    Hello Prometheus and all,

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    >
                    > This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
                    >and
                    > contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for
                    > granted such as the group consciousness of: societies; religions;
                    > organizations; communities.

                    ***Contemplate?? ;-)))
                    >
                    > Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
                    > together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

                    *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

                    >there are other
                    > factors that either makes this statement true or inaccurate when
                    >it
                    > comes to people. Is there a collective group consciousness in
                    > Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual consciousness tuned into
                    > its own specific frequency?

                    *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
                    be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
                    seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
                    individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
                    And of what HCS is, too.

                    >With circles of initiation in Eckankar
                    > perhaps it is viewed that the higher one goes the closer one is to
                    > that perfect wave length. Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned
                    > into 97.3 rather than 97.1 or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many
                    > circles of initiation and minor inner initiations (inbetween the
                    > recognized and final stage or confirmation to the major outer
                    > initiations) how can there be a true group consciousness?

                    *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

                    > However,
                    > if there is then what is the level of this group consciousness? Is
                    > it the total average of all members (or each circle?) or is it
                    >only
                    > as great as its weakest link!

                    *** The smallest denominator? :-)

                    > Are there different groups of
                    > consciousness and Not one Group Consciousness within Eckankar? If
                    > there are different groups of consciousness, as well as birds with
                    > individual consciousness, there would certainly be
                    >different "flocks
                    > of birds" within a religion or society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does
                    >the
                    > head bird look like that brings all of these other flocks
                    > together... (HK!) and what makes one bird greater than another?

                    *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
                    says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
                    bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
                    who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
                    to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
                    stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
                    because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
                    could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
                    the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

                    > Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made up
                    > of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
                    > well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
                    > flock of birds with one following another. But what of other
                    >flocks
                    > of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
                    > these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of
                    >making
                    > muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
                    > beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
                    > though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want
                    >to
                    > see your true Master!

                    *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather pecking
                    each other! LOL!
                    >
                    > Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
                    >have
                    > leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
                    > higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
                    > he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising
                    >and
                    > defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
                    > knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

                    *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
                    man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                    the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                    has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
                    >
                    > B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
                    >of
                    > Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
                    >Icke;
                    > The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the
                    >con
                    > of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

                    *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ... you
                    have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons will
                    follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who seek
                    development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
                    and "lower" planes.

                    > These are
                    > just a few of the things that they have shared on TS/HCS. They
                    >also
                    > plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts. Yet, with all of
                    > this along with their rudeness and intolerance to the insights of
                    > others, always needing to be right, putting others down for having
                    >a
                    > different POV from theirs, flattering to gain support, always
                    >having
                    > to have the last word, and their passive/aggressiveness towards
                    > Ford... Ford still gives them free reign as leaders on his BBs and
                    > as his HCS Canadian Representatives! Fascinating!!! LOL!

                    *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say! I
                    can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
                    pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

                    >
                    > Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
                    >Souls
                    > with many different points of view on various subjects. This is
                    >also
                    > why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks that
                    >if
                    > people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that this will
                    > help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what is not.
                    > But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
                    >Eckankar
                    > had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft, and the
                    > blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
                    >advantage
                    > over others then how does Ford think that these people are capable
                    > of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
                    > consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

                    *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as best
                    I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
                    personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
                    from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                    position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                    well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                    wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                    Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                    wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                    course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                    is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                    ---- snip ----

                    > Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
                    >that
                    > it is nice to be able to share things with like minded individuals
                    > and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

                    *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
                    here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
                    just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
                    course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
                    why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
                    beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
                    bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
                    is clear in my opinion.
                    >
                    > However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
                    > members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
                    >and
                    > volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
                    >any
                    > wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
                    >it
                    > shouldn't be!

                    *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
                    brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
                    are very important to the organization.

                    >Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer
                    > their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                    >shared
                    > illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
                    > members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

                    *** This is what comes of it ...

                    >This is why
                    > religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher quality of
                    > consciousness to their members because to do so they wouldn't be
                    > able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring conflict
                    >to
                    > the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS will not be
                    >for
                    > those seeking higher consciousness!

                    ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
                    really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
                    achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
                    me. :-))

                    Ingrid
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi Ingrid, Just thought I d make some more comments. Thanks for the response! ctecvie wrote: Hello Prometheus and all, Prometheus wrote: ***This is very
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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                      Hi Ingrid,

                      Just thought I'd make some more comments. Thanks for the response!



                      ctecvie wrote:

                      Hello Prometheus and all,

                      Prometheus wrote:
                      ***This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
                      and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take
                      for granted such as the group consciousness of: societies;
                      religions; organizations; communities.

                      > ***Contemplate?? ;-)))

                      Me: Well I guess "ponder" would be more accurate. I sometimes try to
                      use Eck speak or their "common language" for the Eckists reading
                      these postings in order to communicate better. I do emphasize with
                      them and understand their frustrations as we all do. Actually, I
                      struggled, somewhat, to use "contemplate." It just doesn't feel
                      right anymore. LOL!

                      ***Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
                      together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

                      > *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

                      Me: Yes, HK overstates the obvious and understates everything else!

                      ***there are other factors that either makes this statement true or
                      inaccurate when it comes to people. Is there a collective group
                      consciousness in Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual
                      consciousness tuned into its own specific frequency?

                      > *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
                      be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
                      seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
                      individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
                      And of what HCS is, too.

                      Me: Choosing a religion is like choosing a house to live in. How far
                      away is the location, what features does it have, what can I live
                      with, what needs to be changed, what is the climate like, etc., etc.
                      the list goes on and on. Or, maybe one can do a semi custom home or
                      a custom design instead of buying a spec house. Imagination,
                      illusion, and purpose are all factors. But, one still needs a nice
                      lot to build upon... or not!

                      ***With circles of initiation in Eckankar perhaps it is viewed that
                      the higher one goes the closer one is to that perfect wave length.
                      Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned into 97.3 rather than 97.1
                      or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many circles of initiation and
                      minor inner initiations (inbetween the recognized and final stage or
                      confirmation to the major outer initiations) how can there be a true
                      group consciousness?

                      > *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

                      Me: There are those that we have much in common with on an
                      inner "spiritual" level or in Consciousness. Perhaps we are members
                      of the same cluster of Souls. Those on this site have much in
                      common, and there are others, elsewhere, we have much in common with
                      too.

                      ***However, if there is then what is the level of this group
                      consciousness? Is it the total average of all members (or each
                      circle?) or is it only as great as its weakest link!

                      > *** The smallest denominator? :-)

                      Me: It could be. People do tend to pull others down to their level
                      or sometimes the awakening is that those one thought were on a lower
                      level were actually on the same or higher level! Klemp via his
                      deceit is definitely on a lower level of consciousness than many of
                      his Eck followers!

                      ***Are there different groups of consciousness and Not one Group
                      Consciousness within Eckankar? If there are different groups of
                      consciousness, as well as birds with individual consciousness, there
                      would certainly be different "flocks of birds" within a religion or
                      society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the head bird look like that brings
                      all of these other flocks together... (HK!) and what makes one bird
                      greater than another?

                      > *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
                      says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
                      bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
                      who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
                      to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
                      stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
                      because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
                      could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
                      the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

                      Me: If Klemp takes on karma for people then why do bad things happen
                      to Eckists? If it's because they need the experiences then where is
                      the karma that HK is supposedly taking on? I know that Klump likes
                      to have it both ways, but how stupid are Eckists?! The woman that
                      freaked out at the 2005 EWWS is a perfect example of no Mahanta
                      protection or guidance. Where was her Mahanta? Or, is this an
                      example of her learning through experience? If so, then how does
                      this differ with everyone else in the world learning through their
                      experiences? And, (according to Eckankar) doesn't the Kal control
                      Karma and the all powerful Mahanta only steps in on occasion?!
                      Eckists' brains have atrophied!

                      ***Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made
                      up of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
                      well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
                      flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
                      of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
                      these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
                      muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
                      beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
                      though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
                      see your true Master!

                      > *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather
                      pecking each other! LOL!

                      Me: Yes there is a lot of that (and more!) going on within Eckankar.

                      ***Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
                      have leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
                      higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
                      he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
                      defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
                      knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

                      > *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
                      man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                      the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                      has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

                      Me: It does seem like he still hangs onto some of the rituals (and
                      expanding on them) like the spiritual exercises three times a day.
                      There's a lot of inner focus too. Most Eckists who reject the outer
                      RESA structure, EWS (ECK Worship Service), guidelines, trainings,
                      Vahana/missionary work, donations, etc. focus on the inner, mostly,
                      as well.

                      ***B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
                      of Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
                      Icke; The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea;
                      the con of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

                      > *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ...
                      you have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons
                      will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who
                      seek development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
                      and "lower" planes.

                      Me: It's good until one sees the nutty conspiracy posts along with
                      the Eckists attacking people. There's just too much permissiveness
                      by Ford. Even freedom requires responsibility or a safe environment
                      to protect those from the irresponsible few.

                      ***These are just a few of the things that they have shared on
                      TS/HCS. They also plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts.
                      Yet, with all of this along with their rudeness and intolerance to
                      the insights of others, always needing to be right, putting others
                      down for having a different POV from theirs, flattering to gain
                      support, always having to have the last word, and their
                      passive/aggressiveness towards Ford... Ford still gives them free
                      reign as leaders on his BBs and as his HCS Canadian Representatives!
                      Fascinating!!! LOL!

                      > *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say!
                      I can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
                      pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

                      Me: Yes, vanity and ego (power over others) is part of the game that
                      was learned and rewarded while in Eckankar.


                      ***Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
                      Souls with many different points of view on various subjects. This
                      is also why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks
                      that if people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that
                      this will help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what
                      is not. But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
                      Eckankar had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft,
                      and the blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
                      advantage over others then how does Ford think that these people are
                      capable of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
                      consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

                      > *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as
                      best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
                      personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
                      from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                      position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                      well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                      wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                      Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                      wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                      course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                      is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                      ---- snip ----

                      Me: Well said!

                      ***Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
                      that it is nice to be able to share things with like minded
                      individuals and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

                      > *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
                      here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
                      just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
                      course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
                      why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
                      beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
                      bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
                      is clear in my opinion.

                      Me: There is censorship on TS/HCS. I've seen one of Mario's (not too
                      long ago) deleted after it went up. It must have been very nasty for
                      Ford to have done that! I've also seen....... in posts which
                      indicate that something was removed. However, I'm more amazed at the
                      passive/aggressive posts towards Ford, from Mario and keyed in by
                      Betty, that Ford allows to go up! And, why does he allow B&M (his
                      HCS reps) to support Twitchell and The Tiger's Fang?!

                      ***However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
                      members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
                      and volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
                      any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
                      it shouldn't be!

                      > *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
                      brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
                      are very important to the organization.

                      Me: I would say that they have driven off more members (and will
                      continue to) than those who have joined (if any) due to them. I
                      would also question the quality (consciousness and goals) of members
                      joining due to Betty and Mario's influence.

                      ***Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer their
                      members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
                      illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
                      members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

                      > *** This is what comes of it ...

                      Me: There are no standards, but what kind of test could there be for
                      membership? Should there be a yearly review? An oversight committee?
                      LOL! Eckankar probably has so many of these that just spy on people
                      and project this or that as busy work and distraction for the higher
                      ups to feel important to the Mahanta's mission! LOL!

                      ***This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher
                      quality of consciousness to their members because to do so they
                      wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring
                      conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS
                      will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

                      > ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
                      really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
                      achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
                      me. :-))


                      Me: Me too! I hope that this site is helping people to see this and
                      to feel free to share their experiences and insights.

                      Prometheus
                    • mishmisha9
                      Hi, Ingrid and All! Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to interject with a few comments! : ) Ingrid wrote: I always like what Sharon
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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                        Hi, Ingrid and All!

                        Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
                        interject with a few comments! : )

                        Ingrid wrote:
                        I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
                        out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                        the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                        has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

                        Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
                        Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
                        with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
                        after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
                        any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
                        eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
                        contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
                        Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                        like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                        letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
                        Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
                        see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
                        jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.

                        ######

                        Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
                        quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
                        myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
                        the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
                        America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

                        Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
                        view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
                        other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
                        people who seek development outside themselves and still think
                        in "higher" and "lower" planes.

                        Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
                        would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
                        others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
                        conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
                        videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
                        of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
                        manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
                        letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
                        video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
                        over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
                        someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
                        I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
                        Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
                        who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
                        to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
                        I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
                        have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
                        does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
                        down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
                        Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
                        circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
                        outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
                        points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
                        different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
                        have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
                        lost.

                        You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
                        open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
                        difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
                        have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
                        have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
                        advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
                        the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
                        As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
                        that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
                        intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
                        Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
                        want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
                        people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
                        uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
                        to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
                        alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
                        movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
                        thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
                        attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
                        be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
                        of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
                        therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
                        time! : )


                        ###############

                        Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
                        life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
                        on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
                        lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                        position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                        well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                        wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                        Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                        wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                        course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                        is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?

                        Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
                        learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
                        unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )

                        ############

                        Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
                        anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
                        discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
                        restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
                        Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
                        BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
                        What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
                        then everything is clear in my opinion.

                        Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
                        It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
                        that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
                        administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
                        incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
                        I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
                        It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
                        means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
                        views of others.

                        Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
                        try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
                        loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
                        consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
                        ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!


                        Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )

                        Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
                        have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
                        they are very important to the organization.


                        Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
                        that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
                        more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
                        brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
                        out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
                        not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.


                        Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
                        offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                        shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
                        quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

                        Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
                        in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
                        might?" Which do you choose?

                        Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
                        offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
                        do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
                        only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
                        why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

                        Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
                        power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
                        organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
                        but that's only me. :-))

                        Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
                        problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
                        eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
                        Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
                        I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
                        I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
                        organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
                        have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
                        stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
                        confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
                        manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.

                        Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
                        life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )

                        Mish
                      • Freefrom
                        I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without someone imposing their ideas
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 12, 2005
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                          I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about
                          spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without
                          someone imposing their ideas onto me as some kind of dogma or teaching
                          per se. AS Mish stated: "I enjoy being free to allow
                          > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                          > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                          > letting It to flow naturally."

                          Freefrom


                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                          <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi, Ingrid and All!
                          >
                          > Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
                          > interject with a few comments! : )
                          >
                          > Ingrid wrote:
                          > I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
                          > out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                          > the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                          > has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
                          >
                          > Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
                          > Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
                          > with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
                          > after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
                          > any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
                          > eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
                          > contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
                          > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                          > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                          > letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
                          > Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
                          > see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
                          > jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.
                          >
                          > ######
                          >
                          > Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
                          > quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
                          > myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
                          > the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
                          > America: the con of Paul Twitchell!
                          >
                          > Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
                          > view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
                          > other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
                          > people who seek development outside themselves and still think
                          > in "higher" and "lower" planes.
                          >
                          > Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
                          > would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
                          > others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
                          > conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
                          > videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
                          > of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
                          > manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
                          > letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
                          > video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
                          > over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
                          > someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
                          > I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
                          > Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
                          > who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
                          > to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
                          > I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
                          > have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
                          > does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
                          > down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
                          > Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
                          > circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
                          > outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
                          > points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
                          > different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
                          > have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
                          > lost.
                          >
                          > You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
                          > open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
                          > difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
                          > have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
                          > have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
                          > advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
                          > the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
                          > As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
                          > that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
                          > intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
                          > Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
                          > want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
                          > people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
                          > uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
                          > to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
                          > alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
                          > movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
                          > thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
                          > attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
                          > be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
                          > of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
                          > therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
                          > time! : )
                          >
                          >
                          > ###############
                          >
                          > Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
                          > life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
                          > on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
                          > lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                          > position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                          > well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                          > wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                          > Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                          > wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                          > course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                          > is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                          >
                          > Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
                          > learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
                          > unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )
                          >
                          > ############
                          >
                          > Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
                          > anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
                          > discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
                          > restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
                          > Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
                          > BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
                          > What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
                          > then everything is clear in my opinion.
                          >
                          > Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
                          > It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
                          > that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
                          > administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
                          > incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
                          > I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
                          > It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
                          > means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
                          > views of others.
                          >
                          > Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
                          > try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
                          > loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
                          > consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
                          > ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!
                          >
                          >
                          > Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )
                          >
                          > Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
                          > have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
                          > they are very important to the organization.
                          >
                          >
                          > Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
                          > that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
                          > more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
                          > brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
                          > out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
                          > not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.
                          >
                          >
                          > Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
                          > offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                          > shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
                          > quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!
                          >
                          > Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
                          > in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
                          > might?" Which do you choose?
                          >
                          > Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
                          > offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
                          > do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
                          > only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
                          > why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!
                          >
                          > Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
                          > power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
                          > organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
                          > but that's only me. :-))
                          >
                          > Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
                          > problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
                          > eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
                          > Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
                          > I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
                          > I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
                          > organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
                          > have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
                          > stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
                          > confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
                          > manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.
                          >
                          > Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
                          > life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )
                          >
                          > Mish
                          >
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