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Re: The "Satsang" of Twitchell's Distortions

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  • Freefrom
    Yes, good one Prometheus! What is interesting about both of these so called ultimate paths to the highest Godhead is that it is all about believing. THese are
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 5, 2005
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      Yes, good one Prometheus!

      What is interesting about both of these so called ultimate paths to
      the highest Godhead is that it is all about believing. THese are not
      really paths of exploration or any true spiritual inqiry or real
      understanding. It's all about memorizing what you are being told to
      believe. It is a fictionalized dogma with some truth possibly mixed in
      here and there, just like any religion out there.

      Also, I have been realizing lately, that one of the ways that these
      groups control people into behaving and believing the group think, is
      through their own Passive Aggressive behavior, that is shunning or
      ignoring, or getting back at those who question too much. Passive
      aggressive behavior is indirect aggression, like not giving certain
      persons an initiation, or exclusion, or subtly turning the group
      against you or gossiping behind your back, etc.. THis is often a
      course of action among people who are taught to not handle conflicts
      in a direct and assertive manner. In eckankult, being direct, honest,
      or assertive is often automatically labeled angry and hateful. THis
      then also leads to guilt feelings for those who may be feeling some
      resentment as a natural response to such dishonesty. Klemp can be very
      passive aggressive and is very good at smearing those who disagree
      with, but he will never directly debate anyone who may have a
      differing point of view. After all, he is the ultimate authority on
      the planet, the Son of God, God on earth, Mahanta, blah, blah, blah.
      What a joke. ;-) Once people see him for the fool he and Gross and
      Twitch really were/are, then they will not be fooled themselves. THe
      trick for me, is to start viewing the understanding of life and
      existence as an inqiry with an open mind. THen dogma is seen for what
      it is, a potential trap.

      BEST TO EVERYONE

      FREEFROM

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      >
      > Radha Soami Satsang Beas, The Science of Surat Shabd Yoga, is the
      > religion that John Paul Twitchell copied, distorted, and added to in
      > order to create Eckankar. The following is a quote from "The Path of
      > the Masters" [Twitchell's primary resource book, (end of Ch. 9, pgs.
      > 449-450)].
      >
      > "But let no man think that because the Path of the Masters is slow
      > and comparatively easy, that the final results will be less than
      > those to be attained by the more difficult path of the yogis. The
      > contrary is true. The path of the Saints includes in its
      > accomplishments all that any system has ever promised or attained,
      > and then goes far above and beyond anything ever dreamed of by
      > ancient yogis. It is well to repeat here for the emphasis that a
      > good yogi is one who has gained the first region on the Path of the
      > Saints. This is the pure Astral. It lies above the 'sun worlds' and
      > the 'moon worlds' of the yogis and the rishis. The Sahasra-dal-
      > Kanwal center is sometimes called the 'lightning world' by the Vedic
      > writers. A real Saint or Master is one who has attained the fifth
      > region, called Sach Khand, four distinct regions or universes beyond
      > the highest achievements of the yogi. The Saint has also
      > corresponding increase of powers and understanding beyond those of
      > the yogi or the rishi. The Masters gain all that is ever
      > accomplished by the more laborious and even dangerous method of the
      > yogis, and they gain it in much less time. After that they go on up
      > to heights never dreamed of or imagined to exist by any of the old
      > yogis or vedantists. If any man feels inclined to doubt these
      > statements, there is a way to prove them. Come to a living Master
      > and test the truth of them for yourself. The way is open and an
      > invitation is hereby extended to any honest investigator. 'Seek and
      > ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you.'"
      >
      > I'll bet all of this sounds very familiar to Eckists. Yes this "Path
      > of the Masters is slow and comparatively easy" (they claim) and
      > chelas attain "the fifth region called Sach Khand... in much less
      > time." So, this religion sounds like the most direct path (and an
      > Easy Way, LOL!) to God-Realization just like Eckankar! However it is
      > slow. Then again, how fast is Eckankar? Initiations use to be fast
      > but Klemp has slowed them down. It now takes 15-18 years to reach
      > the Fifth. And most 7ths need at least 25 years as a 7th to be
      > considered for the 8th. Just look at S.B.'s old buddy F.B.! She's
      > still an "outer" 7th but in her mind's eye she's an 8th or maybe a
      > 9th, or maybe a 33rd! LOL! Delusion and ego are alive and well in
      > the Eck communities!!!
      >
      > Anyway, it's all fun and games for these Living "Masters" isn't it?!
      > Pity, that people can't see beyond the lifelong codependence that
      > they preach. However, at least we can see where Twitchell got his
      > ideas for Spiritual Freedom or Liberation. It's just too bad that he
      > took his personal Cliffhanger (Soul seeking God) approach and made
      > it into a vocation. But, if we look at P.T.'s past (a liar and
      > fiction writer) and his circumstances (meeting Gail) and
      > associations (L. Ron Hubbard, etc. and his chastisement by his
      > master Kirpal Singh) we can see why Twitchell did what he did. If we
      > look at Gross and Klemp we can see why they were so willing to take
      > over and continue the Eckankar scam as LEM/Mahantas.
      >
      > I said, fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you... Mr.
      > Klemp, but this should normally be once for him and twice for me.
      > And I will admit that after my orthodox religious experience, and
      > TM, etc., and I should have been more cautious with Eckankar. But, I
      > saw Eckankar in a class by itself and threw caution to the wind (of
      > change?). Still, it was a struggle to close my eyes to some of the
      > behaviour, the written contradictions and confusing speak, and to
      > Klemp's moronish and shallow stories. And, I especially disliked
      > what I knew to be embellished and fictional stories by Eckists that
      > they "shared" in seminar talks, in Eck publications, and in
      > IRO/HIROs to Klemp. Oh well, when the chela is ready the Master will
      > appear... in the mirror!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Freefrom, I enjoyed your perspective. Eckankar also controls through the use of the S.S. Silence and Surrender are key to controlling chelas. The Law of
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 5, 2005
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        Hi Freefrom,
        I enjoyed your perspective. Eckankar also controls through the use
        of the S.S. Silence and Surrender are key to controlling chelas.

        The "Law" of Silence is even likened to the "need to know" and
        security classifications as used in the military. [Klemp loved the
        Air Force!] But with a security clearance also comes a distinct
        access and this is what really separates the true inner circle from
        the outer ones. An example of one of the things that is Not
        discussed in Eckankar is the Ninth Initiation and those who may have
        it. Too many questions are seen as bad. And, "negative" subjects or
        speech are Not to be discussed or used as well as subjects involving
        materialism and the 5 passions. Therefore, silence is used to
        manipulate and control and the denial of this fact (and truth)
        is/are practiced more than any other "spiritual exercise" in
        Eckankar! The Eck head-in-the-sand technique seems to be the
        (unconscious) favorite among Eckists, and is the real (but
        distorted) Satsang!

        Surrender of self, of thought, of emotion, and even of love is seen
        as a virtue of detatchment. But, it is really a passive act of the
        submission of will and of possessions (even one's freedom) to one
        who is seen as higher (a Mahanta) rather than equal. Yes, No Soul
        equals Soul here!

        And, there are a lot of passive/aggressive and ego games being
        played involving the local Eck hierarchies and even with the ESC.
        The pecking order and guidelines are rather clear to most of those
        who understand, work with, and submit to the RESA structure. It
        really helps to have a "military mind" and do what one is told
        without too much thought and to never have any questions (much less
        deeply probing ones!). That's what good soldiers do! But, as most of
        us know there is a power, trust, intelligence, and competence issue
        with hierarchies. Religions and the Military have a lot in common!

        Prometheus

        *******************************************************************
        "Freefrom" eckchains wrote:

        Yes, good one Prometheus!

        What is interesting about both of these so called ultimate paths to
        the highest Godhead is that it is all about believing. THese are not
        really paths of exploration or any true spiritual inqiry or real
        understanding. It's all about memorizing what you are being told to
        believe. It is a fictionalized dogma with some truth possibly mixed
        in here and there, just like any religion out there.

        Also, I have been realizing lately, that one of the ways that these
        groups control people into behaving and believing the group think, is
        through their own Passive Aggressive behavior, that is shunning or
        ignoring, or getting back at those who question too much. Passive
        aggressive behavior is indirect aggression, like not giving certain
        persons an initiation, or exclusion, or subtly turning the group
        against you or gossiping behind your back, etc.. THis is often a
        course of action among people who are taught to not handle conflicts
        in a direct and assertive manner. In eckankult, being direct, honest,
        or assertive is often automatically labeled angry and hateful. THis
        then also leads to guilt feelings for those who may be feeling some
        resentment as a natural response to such dishonesty. Klemp can be
        very passive aggressive and is very good at smearing those who
        disagree with, but he will never directly debate anyone who may have
        a differing point of view. After all, he is the ultimate authority on
        the planet, the Son of God, God on earth, Mahanta, blah, blah, blah.
        What a joke. ;-) Once people see him for the fool he and Gross and
        Twitch really were/are, then they will not be fooled themselves. THe
        trick for me, is to start viewing the understanding of life and
        existence as an inqiry with an open mind. THen dogma is seen for what
        it is, a potential trap.

        BEST TO EVERYONE

        FREEFROM
        ********************************************************************
        Prometheus wrote:

        Hello All,

        Radha Soami Satsang Beas, The Science of Surat Shabd Yoga, is the
        religion that John Paul Twitchell copied, distorted, and added to in
        order to create Eckankar. The following is a quote from "The Path of
        the Masters" [Twitchell's primary resource book, (end of Ch. 9, pgs.
        449-450)].

        "But let no man think that because the Path of the Masters is slow
        and comparatively easy, that the final results will be less than
        those to be attained by the more difficult path of the yogis. The
        contrary is true. The path of the Saints includes in its
        accomplishments all that any system has ever promised or attained,
        and then goes far above and beyond anything ever dreamed of by
        ancient yogis. It is well to repeat here for the emphasis that a
        good yogi is one who has gained the first region on the Path of the
        Saints. This is the pure Astral. It lies above the 'sun worlds' and
        the 'moon worlds' of the yogis and the rishis. The Sahasra-dal-
        Kanwal center is sometimes called the 'lightning world' by the Vedic
        writers. A real Saint or Master is one who has attained the fifth
        region, called Sach Khand, four distinct regions or universes beyond
        the highest achievements of the yogi. The Saint has also
        corresponding increase of powers and understanding beyond those of
        the yogi or the rishi. The Masters gain all that is ever
        accomplished by the more laborious and even dangerous method of the
        yogis, and they gain it in much less time. After that they go on up
        to heights never dreamed of or imagined to exist by any of the old
        yogis or vedantists. If any man feels inclined to doubt these
        statements, there is a way to prove them. Come to a living Master
        and test the truth of them for yourself. The way is open and an
        invitation is hereby extended to any honest investigator. 'Seek and
        ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you.'"

        I'll bet all of this sounds very familiar to Eckists. Yes this "Path
        of the Masters is slow and comparatively easy" (they claim) and
        chelas attain "the fifth region called Sach Khand... in much less
        time." So, this religion sounds like the most direct path (and an
        Easy Way, LOL!) to God-Realization just like Eckankar! However it is
        slow. Then again, how fast is Eckankar? Initiations use to be fast
        but Klemp has slowed them down. It now takes 15-18 years to reach
        the Fifth. And most 7ths need at least 25 years as a 7th to be
        considered for the 8th. Just look at S.B.'s old buddy F.B.! She's
        still an "outer" 7th but in her mind's eye she's an 8th or maybe a
        9th, or maybe a 33rd! LOL! Delusion and ego are alive and well in
        the Eck communities!!!

        Anyway, it's all fun and games for these Living "Masters" isn't it?!
        Pity, that people can't see beyond the lifelong co-dependence that
        they preach. However, at least we can see where Twitchell got his
        ideas for Spiritual Freedom or Liberation. It's just too bad that he
        took his personal Cliffhanger (Soul seeking God) approach and made
        it into a vocation. But, if we look at P.T.'s past (a liar and
        fiction writer) and his circumstances (meeting Gail) and
        associations (L. Ron Hubbard, etc. and his chastisement by his
        master Kirpal Singh) we can see why Twitchell did what he did. If we
        look at Gross and Klemp we can see why they were so willing to take
        over and continue the Eckankar scam as LEM/Mahantas.

        I said, fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you... Mr.
        Klemp, but this should normally be once for him and twice for me.
        And I will admit that after my orthodox religious experience, and
        TM, etc., I should have been more cautious with Eckankar. But, I
        saw Eckankar in a class by itself and threw caution to the wind (of
        change?). Still, it was a struggle to close my eyes to: some of the
        behaviour; the written contradictions; confusing double speak; and
        to Klemp's moronish and shallow stories. And, I especially disliked
        what I knew to be embellished and fictional stories by Eckists that
        they "shared" in seminar talks, in Eck publications, and in
        IRO/HIROs to Klemp. Oh well, when the chela is ready the Master will
        appear... in the mirror!

        Prometheus
      • mishmisha9
        Hi, All! Freefrom is making a good point about passive-aggressive behavior. It is a very manipulative/control technique which as he says is used by many, and
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 6, 2005
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          Hi, All!

          Freefrom is making a good point about passive-aggressive behavior.
          It is a very manipulative/control technique which as he says is used
          by many, and is readily apparent in eckankar with the establishment
          of the RESA structure under his lordship Harold. It is a long,
          delusional path with a certain few directing the herd and keeping
          them locked in!

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
          <eckchains@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Yes, good one Prometheus!
          >
          > What is interesting about both of these so called ultimate paths to
          > the highest Godhead is that it is all about believing. THese are
          not
          > really paths of exploration or any true spiritual inqiry or real
          > understanding. It's all about memorizing what you are being told to
          > believe. It is a fictionalized dogma with some truth possibly
          mixed in
          > here and there, just like any religion out there.

          Mish: What is taught is self-brainwashing. Singing HU several times
          a day; focusing on a photo, either real or in your mind, of HK and
          other eck masters. These images pop up into one's mind, because one
          has created those images, and thus, they become "real."

          >
          > Also, I have been realizing lately, that one of the ways that these
          > groups control people into behaving and believing the group think,
          is
          > through their own Passive Aggressive behavior, that is shunning or
          > ignoring, or getting back at those who question too much. Passive
          > aggressive behavior is indirect aggression, like not giving certain
          > persons an initiation, or exclusion, or subtly turning the group
          > against you or gossiping behind your back, etc.. THis is often a
          > course of action among people who are taught to not handle
          conflicts in a direct and assertive manner.

          Mish: Yes, this is cruel behavior that many do not realize that they
          are inflicting on others, because it is "taught" to be appropriate.
          Gossiping behind a person's back as some HI's especially do is a way
          of keeping informed about others and making judgments which can lead
          to the passive-aggression behavior that Freefrom points out. Would
          you believe that I was shunned while in the org? : )



          In eckankult, being direct, honest,
          > or assertive is often automatically labeled angry and hateful. THis
          > then also leads to guilt feelings for those who may be feeling some
          > resentment as a natural response to such dishonesty. Klemp can be
          very
          > passive aggressive and is very good at smearing those who disagree
          > with, but he will never directly debate anyone who may have a
          > differing point of view. After all, he is the ultimate authority on
          > the planet, the Son of God, God on earth, Mahanta, blah, blah,
          blah.

          Mish: Yes, Harold doesn't say anything of substance! His personality
          is pretty dead too--anger shines through at times, but not much
          else. I read in one of his transcripts that he (HK) said eckists
          would be foolish to believe everything he said. I threw all the
          transcripst out, regettably, as I would like to cite his words
          exactly. I appreciated that he did state this as it really set me
          free to pick and choose; however, when I mentioned this to a couple
          of fanatical eckist friends, they had a big problem with the idea
          because all that Harold ever spoke was golden to them, and they
          seemed to have missed this clever disclaimer that was interjected in
          this particular HK transcript. They were very angry with me--
          especially since I was a lower initiate.

          I have come to realize the reason Harold chuckles and laughs so much
          during his talks is because he must find it amazing how his chelas
          are falling for his lies! He must think that "his audiences" contain
          the most stupid of stupidist people in the world. It surely must
          make him feel much smarter to con so many who so readily hang onto
          every word he speaks! : )


          > What a joke. ;-) Once people see him for the fool he and Gross and
          > Twitch really were/are, then they will not be fooled themselves.
          THe
          > trick for me, is to start viewing the understanding of life and
          > existence as an inqiry with an open mind. THen dogma is seen for
          what
          > it is, a potential trap.
          >

          Mish: I like your "trick," Freefrom, much better than those of the
          eckankar leadership. Our minds are our tools for sorting out our
          lives and the meaning of our existence. Handing this gift over to
          the domination of others, such as Twitchel, Gross and Klemp, is
          truly foolish and a hazzardous misstep. It is too bad that eckists
          are being manipulated into trying to rope in more Souls to fall
          victim to this scam.



          Prometheus wrote:
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello All,
          > >
          > > I'll bet all of this sounds very familiar to Eckists. Yes
          this "Path
          > > of the Masters is slow and comparatively easy" (they claim) and
          > > chelas attain "the fifth region called Sach Khand... in much
          less
          > > time." So, this religion sounds like the most direct path (and
          an
          > > Easy Way, LOL!) to God-Realization just like Eckankar! However
          it is
          > > slow. Then again, how fast is Eckankar? Initiations use to be
          fast
          > > but Klemp has slowed them down. It now takes 15-18 years to
          reach
          > > the Fifth. And most 7ths need at least 25 years as a 7th to be
          > > considered for the 8th. Just look at S.B.'s old buddy F.B.!
          She's
          > > still an "outer" 7th but in her mind's eye she's an 8th or maybe
          a
          > > 9th, or maybe a 33rd! LOL! Delusion and ego are alive and well
          in
          > > the Eck communities!!!
          > >
          > > Anyway, it's all fun and games for these Living "Masters" isn't
          it?!
          > > Pity, that people can't see beyond the lifelong codependence
          that
          > > they preach. However, at least we can see where Twitchell got
          his
          > > ideas for Spiritual Freedom or Liberation. It's just too bad
          that he
          > > took his personal Cliffhanger (Soul seeking God) approach and
          made
          > > it into a vocation. But, if we look at P.T.'s past (a liar and
          > > fiction writer) and his circumstances (meeting Gail) and
          > > associations (L. Ron Hubbard, etc. and his chastisement by his
          > > master Kirpal Singh) we can see why Twitchell did what he did.
          If we
          > > look at Gross and Klemp we can see why they were so willing to
          take
          > > over and continue the Eckankar scam as LEM/Mahantas.
          > >
          > > I said, fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you...
          Mr.
          > > Klemp, but this should normally be once for him and twice for
          me.
          > > And I will admit that after my orthodox religious experience,
          and
          > > TM, etc., and I should have been more cautious with Eckankar.
          But, I
          > > saw Eckankar in a class by itself and threw caution to the wind
          (of
          > > change?). Still, it was a struggle to close my eyes to some of
          the
          > > behaviour, the written contradictions and confusing speak, and
          to
          > > Klemp's moronish and shallow stories. And, I especially disliked
          > > what I knew to be embellished and fictional stories by Eckists
          that
          > > they "shared" in seminar talks, in Eck publications, and in
          > > IRO/HIROs to Klemp. Oh well, when the chela is ready the Master
          will
          > > appear... in the mirror!
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >


          Mish: I threw caution to the wind, too, when I joined up! I'm still
          shaking my head about doing that. I don't blame eckankar--I blame
          myself for being so easily conned. I never was comfortable with the
          teachings, though, and I saw a lot of crazy stuff going on--
          especially at seminars. As a newcomer, I was told to be careful not
          to try to "understand" too much in the teachings too quickly or I
          could become sick with spiritual indigestion! This is a good
          silencing technique, don't you think? Partner it with the law of
          silence, and the leverage of getting your initiations in a timely
          manner, well, . . . there you have it, control and dominance by the
          few for the benefit of the few! There is nothing spiritual about
          misleading people and giving them false hope. :(

          Mish
        • prometheus_973
          Hi Mish, ***Just thought I d comment more as well. mishmisha wrote: Freefrom is making a good point about passive-aggressive behavior. It is a very
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 7, 2005
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            Hi Mish,
            ***Just thought I'd comment more as well.


            mishmisha wrote:

            Freefrom is making a good point about passive-aggressive behavior.
            It is a very manipulative/control technique which as he says is used
            by many, and is readily apparent in eckankar with the establishment
            of the RESA structure under his lordship Harold. It is a long,
            delusional path with a certain few directing the herd and keeping
            them locked in!

            ***Yes, this is true. Also, passive/aggressive behaviour is a
            defensive/survival mechanism used by those who feel trapped, weak,
            or helpless in submissive positions by those in "superior" positions
            or those who have power over them and control of their careers or
            destinies (initiations). This passive/aggressive behaviour is
            usually seen in the workplace, but can also occur in families, in
            religions, and everyday situations.





            "Freefrom" eckchains wrote:

            What is interesting about both of these so called ultimate paths to
            the highest Godhead is that it is all about believing. THese are not
            really paths of exploration or any true spiritual inqiry or real
            understanding. It's all about memorizing what you are being told to
            believe. It is a fictionalized dogma with some truth possibly mixed
            in here and there, just like any religion out there.

            Mish: What is taught is self-brainwashing. Singing HU several times
            a day; focusing on a photo, either real or in your mind, of HK and
            other eck masters. These images pop up into one's mind, because one
            has created those images, and thus, they become "real."

            ***Yes, Klemp is trying to change Eckists by making them Less
            emotional (feeling & loving) and Less mental (critical thinking) by
            stressing the Negative aspects of emotion and thought. But HK also
            confuses Eckists and keeps them off balance by implying they
            are "heart people" when the emotional/Astral is seen as lower and
            Negative for Soul.



            Freefrom: Also, I have been realizing lately, that one of the ways
            that these groups control people into behaving and believing the
            group think, is through their own Passive Aggressive behavior, that
            is shunning or ignoring, or getting back at those who question too
            much. Passive aggressive behavior is indirect aggression, like not
            giving certain persons an initiation, or exclusion, or subtly
            turning the group against you or gossiping behind your back, etc..
            THis is often a course of action among people who are taught to not
            handle conflicts in a direct and assertive manner.

            Mish: Yes, this is cruel behavior that many do not realize that they
            are inflicting on others, because it is "taught" to be appropriate.
            Gossiping behind a person's back as some HI's especially do is a way
            of keeping informed about others and making judgments which can lead
            to the passive-aggression behavior that Freefrom points out. Would
            you believe that I was shunned while in the org? : )

            ***yes, there is a lot of manipulation (locally) with the Eck
            Initiations, especially, in the past twenty years under Klemp!
            Eckists now have to jump through many more hoops (trainings) to
            achieve those Higher Initiations and powerful "Settler" titles (such
            as ESA and RESA)! Personality, friendship, and volunteer efforts
            (and those IRO/HIROs to ESC) are key factors. Oh, don't forget
            silence... key your mouth shut and never complain about anything or
            anyone!




            Freefrom: In eckankult, being direct, honest, or assertive is often
            automatically labeled angry and hateful. THis then also leads to
            guilt feelings for those who may be feeling some resentment as a
            natural response to such dishonesty. Klemp can be very passive
            aggressive and is very good at smearing those who disagree with, but
            he will never directly debate anyone who may have a differing point
            of view. After all, he is the ultimate authority on the planet, the
            Son of God, God on earth, Mahanta, blah, blah, blah.

            Mish: Yes, Harold doesn't say anything of substance! His personality
            is pretty dead too--anger shines through at times, but not much
            else. I read in one of his transcripts that he (HK) said eckists
            would be foolish to believe everything he said. I threw all the
            transcripst out, regettably, as I would like to cite his words
            exactly. I appreciated that he did state this as it really set me
            free to pick and choose; however, when I mentioned this to a couple
            of fanatical eckist friends, they had a big problem with the idea
            because all that Harold ever spoke was golden to them, and they
            seemed to have missed this clever disclaimer that was interjected in
            this particular HK transcript. They were very angry with me--
            especially since I was a lower initiate.

            I have come to realize the reason Harold chuckles and laughs so much
            during his talks is because he must find it amazing how his chelas
            are falling for his lies! He must think that "his audiences" contain
            the most stupid of stupidist people in the world. It surely must
            make him feel much smarter to con so many who so readily hang onto
            every word he speaks! : )

            ***I agree with all of what both of you have shared. Klemp displays
            an insidious side to his character at times. Eckists should do an
            experiment and analyse his words with Neutrality... but that would
            be impossible wouldn't it! (Try his 2005 EWWS talk on the topic of
            only having "love" for relationships). Still, the attempt to read
            his words with a neutral attitude would show an individual a
            comparative difference and indicate the degree of prejudice and
            brainwashing that has taken place. This would be a real Wake-up Call!




            Freefrom: What a joke. ;-) Once people see him for the fool he and
            Gross and Twitch really were/are, then they will not be fooled
            themselves. THe trick for me, is to start viewing the understanding
            of life and existence as an inqiry with an open mind. THen dogma is
            seen for what it is, a potential trap.


            Mish: I like your "trick," Freefrom, much better than those of the
            eckankar leadership. Our minds are our tools for sorting out our
            lives and the meaning of our existence. Handing this gift over to
            the domination of others, such as Twitchel, Gross and Klemp, is
            truly foolish and a hazzardous misstep. It is too bad that eckists
            are being manipulated into trying to rope in more Souls to fall
            victim to this scam.

            ***Yes, there is pressure and stress on the introverted and more
            private Eckists to become extroverted and public. Yhey have to take
            more trainings, give talks, conduct Eck Worship Services to qualify
            and be elligible for those positions and initiations. This is part
            of climbing that ladder, but it's more like a Merry-go-round and
            stretching out for that brass ring, or in this case the ring that is
            gold plated! The illusion is that the ring (goal) is solid gold and
            thus has great value. The initiations and positions have no
            spiritual value and are only control techniwues used by the
            hierarchy and leadership of another religious scam. This one is
            called Eckankar.



            Prometheus wrote:
            Hello All,
            I'll bet all of this sounds very familiar to Eckists. Yes this "Path
            of the Masters is slow and comparatively easy" (they claim) and
            chelas attain "the fifth region called Sach Khand... in much less
            time." So, this religion sounds like the most direct path (and
            an Easy Way, LOL!) to God-Realization just like Eckankar! However
            it is slow. Then again, how fast is Eckankar? Initiations use to be
            fast but Klemp has slowed them down. It now takes 15-18 years to
            reach the Fifth. And most 7ths need at least 25 years as a 7th to be
            considered for the 8th. Just look at S.B.'s old buddy F.B.! She's
            still an "outer" 7th but in her mind's eye she's an 8th or maybe a
            9th, or maybe a 33rd! LOL! Delusion and ego are alive and well in
            the Eck communities!!!

            Anyway, it's all fun and games for these Living "Masters" isn't
            it?! Pity, that people can't see beyond the lifelong codependence
            that they preach. However, at least we can see where Twitchell got
            his ideas for Spiritual Freedom or Liberation. It's just too bad
            that he took his personal Cliffhanger (Soul seeking God) approach
            and made it into a vocation. But, if we look at P.T.'s past (a liar
            and fiction writer) and his circumstances (meeting Gail) and
            associations (L. Ron Hubbard, etc. and his chastisement by his
            master Kirpal Singh) we can see why Twitchell did what he did. If we
            look at Gross and Klemp we can see why they were so willing to take
            over and continue the Eckankar scam as LEM/Mahantas.

            I said, fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you... Mr.
            Klemp, but this should normally be once for him and twice for me.
            And I will admit that after my orthodox religious experience, and
            TM, etc., and I should have been more cautious with Eckankar. But, I
            saw Eckankar in a class by itself and threw caution to the wind (of
            change?). Still, it was a struggle to close my eyes to some of the
            behaviour, the written contradictions and confusing speak, and to
            Klemp's moronish and shallow stories. And, I especially disliked
            what I knew to be embellished and fictional stories by Eckists that
            they "shared" in seminar talks, in Eck publications, and in
            IRO/HIROs to Klemp. Oh well, when the chela is ready the Master will
            appear... in the mirror!

            Prometheus



            Mish: I threw caution to the wind, too, when I joined up! I'm still
            shaking my head about doing that. I don't blame eckankar--I blame
            myself for being so easily conned. I never was comfortable with the
            teachings, though, and I saw a lot of crazy stuff going on--
            especially at seminars. As a newcomer, I was told to be careful not
            to try to "understand" too much in the teachings too quickly or I
            could become sick with spiritual indigestion! This is a good
            silencing technique, don't you think? Partner it with the law of
            silence, and the leverage of getting your initiations in a timely
            manner, well, . . . there you have it, control and dominance by the
            few for the benefit of the few! There is nothing spiritual about
            misleading people and giving them false hope. :(

            ***True! When I first discovered Eckankar I thought it was an
            advanced path because of the detailed explanations I got in regards
            to karma. However, these details of karma are all found in
            Twichell's reference book, "The Path of the Masters." What was
            funny, when I first joined, I was having more Spiritual experiences
            and dreams than were the long time Eckists! Of course, they said
            that they had the guidance and protection of the Mahanta and that
            was supposed to mean something I guess. Christians think they have
            the guidance and protection of Jesus! WOW! Living masters, like
            Popes, really make a difference! LOL! Why didn't we Eckists learn
            from the past deceptions of other religions? I know! It was because
            Eckankar was Not a religion! It was a Spiritual Path and the most
            direct one to God-Realization! We knew this because this is what we
            were told and why would anyone lie to us? Did our former religions
            lie to us? Why did we trust them... because our parents did! Now we
            can see the trap can't we... we trusted that Eckankar was different
            and Not even a religion!

            Prometheus
          • mishmisha9
            Mish wrote: There is nothing spiritual about misleading people and giving them false hope. :( Prometheus replied: ***True! When I first discovered Eckankar I
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 7, 2005
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              Mish wrote:
              There is nothing spiritual about
              misleading people and giving them false hope. :(

              Prometheus replied:
              ***True! When I first discovered Eckankar I thought it was an
              advanced path because of the detailed explanations I got in regards
              to karma. However, these details of karma are all found in
              Twichell's reference book, "The Path of the Masters." What was
              funny, when I first joined, I was having more Spiritual experiences
              and dreams than were the long time Eckists! Of course, they said
              that they had the guidance and protection of the Mahanta and that
              was supposed to mean something I guess. Christians think they have
              the guidance and protection of Jesus! WOW! Living masters, like
              Popes, really make a difference! LOL! Why didn't we Eckists learn
              from the past deceptions of other religions? I know! It was because
              Eckankar was Not a religion! It was a Spiritual Path and the most
              direct one to God-Realization! We knew this because this is what we
              were told and why would anyone lie to us? Did our former religions
              lie to us? Why did we trust them... because our parents did! Now we
              can see the trap can't we... we trusted that Eckankar was different
              and Not even a religion!

              Mish: It is interesting how Eckankar is claimed to be ancient wisdom
              for today, which supposedly resurfaced when Twitch made it up in
              1965. LOL! Eckankar is advertised as the most direct path to God and
              thus, this claim pulls people in--individuals who do not want to
              miss the opportunity to achieve God-realization in this lifetime. It
              seems harmless at first, but looking at the modern history of
              eckankar, one can see how it has become more demanding and more
              controlling over time, especially under the leadership of Klemp who
              set up the RESA structure to keep chelas behaving and working for
              him. Klemp has even turned eckankar from a spiritual path into a
              religion which resembles his Luthern background/education. Making
              eckankar a religion also makes it tax exempt, and since the temple
              is in Minnesota, it's accounts/bookkeeping are not available for
              public scrutiny--it is all so very conveniently secretive.

              IMO, religions are just orgs that many people feel comfortable to
              hold onto. They don't want to go it alone, so they hook up with a
              group, surrendering their spiritual freedom. How many times have we
              as eckists heard the oft repeated word "surrender?" Eckists are
              taught to surrender, to surrender to the mahanta, etc. What does
              surrender mean in truth? Webster's dictionary defines it as
              this: "to give oneself up, as into the power of another; submit or
              yield. . ."

              Now, why in the world would anyone want to surrender--isn't it much
              better to never give up and to never surrender! When you surrender,
              you give up control of yourself and possibly your destiny.

              I keep reading comments by eckists and former eckists who continue
              to believe that they learned so much from the eckankar experience.
              Some "idiot" former eckists even believe that those who continue to
              point out the lies and deceptions in eckankar in such a forum as
              this one are angry individuals who cannot move on with life. This is
              so far from the truth. I'm not angry--I just feel an obligation to
              keep the real truth about eckankar exposed so that others who are in
              the org might take the step to leave, and it might keep newbies from
              joining. Eckankar is not a necessary adventure and its teachings do
              not contain anything special for anyone who's been there to need to
              give thanks for or value it. Whatever one has learned about
              spiritual matters while participating in eckankar has been despite
              the trappings of eckankar. I think it is so foolish for an
              individual, as I read recently on HCS, to state that those of us who
              are sharing the negative truths about eckankar did not learn
              anything from the teachings, stating this as though learning nothing
              from the eck teachings is a terrible thing. LOL! Well, I did learn
              some things about eckankar--I learned about lies, I learned about
              ego driven people who like to control others, and I learned what a
              waste of time it is, among other things. I think it is unfortunate
              that some former eckists still want to cling to the teachings of
              eckankar, to continue to praise Paul Twitchell and quote him, and
              even HK, etc. It seems to me that these individuals have not learned
              much and certainly remain stuck. I really wonder if these former
              eckists are regretting that they left and would like to return--of
              course, if they could go back into the org with their former H.I.
              initiations intact--but of course, that would never happen as HK has
              clearly stated in a recent Mystic World Wisdom Note that someone
              returning would lose all levels of initiations and be put back as a
              first initiate. Then, one would have to wonder if one would even
              progress from there--I'm sure the shunning and black balling would
              be all so obvious. I don't believe that eckists would welcome
              such "traitors" back with open arms! But I suppose if you hang
              around in new groups and believe that eckankar was a necessary
              stepping stone to greater consciousness, one would be delusional
              enough to think the eck initiations have not been lost at all, and
              one has risen even higher--way above the rest of the spiritual
              seekers--and one would feel very lofty indeed. One might even think
              that they are in a more joyful place than say those of us who keep
              on with a responsibility of calling eckankar for what it is, a fraud
              and deceiver of faith. : ) IMO, no one has gone beyond or even left
              eckankar when one continues to praise its teachings. One has not
              learned that those teachings were full of lies and deceptions which
              actually took the spiritual seeker off his path to God rather than
              showing a more direct route!

              Mish
            • prometheus_973
              I agree with Mish that Eckists like Klemp s cohorts on HU-Chat and Chela-Chat or Ruben and other subversive/undercover double agent Eckists, and some former
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 8, 2005
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                I agree with Mish that Eckists like Klemp's cohorts on HU-Chat and
                Chela-Chat or Ruben and other subversive/undercover double agent
                Eckists, and some former Eckists (who in essence do the same), such
                as Mario & Betty, on TS/HCS, all continue to mislead people with the
                Eck-and-Twitch-crap. I really wonder just how far Ford can take his
                Great Work (Teachings) with the likes of B&M! Not far is my guess
                since he has had them with him from the beginning. However, I really
                wonder what qualifies Ford as a better teacher than I AM for MySelf
                or for anyone?!

                Prometheus




                Mish wrote:
                There is nothing spiritual about misleading people and giving them
                false hope. :(

                I keep reading comments by eckists and former eckists who continue
                to believe that they learned so much from the eckankar experience.
                Some "idiot" former eckists even believe that those who continue to
                point out the lies and deceptions in eckankar in such a forum as
                this one are angry individuals who cannot move on with life. This is
                so far from the truth. I'm not angry--I just feel an obligation to
                keep the real truth about eckankar exposed so that others who are in
                the org might take the step to leave, and it might keep newbies from
                joining. Eckankar is not a necessary adventure and its teachings do
                not contain anything special for anyone who's been there to need to
                give thanks for or value it. Whatever one has learned about
                spiritual matters while participating in eckankar has been despite
                the trappings of eckankar.

                I think it is so foolish for an individual, as I read recently on
                HCS, to state that those of us who are sharing the negative truths
                about eckankar did not learn anything from the teachings, stating
                this as though learning nothing from the eck teachings is a terrible
                thing. LOL! Well, I did learn some things about eckankar--I learned
                about lies, I learned about ego driven people who like to control
                others, and I learned what a waste of time it is, among other
                things. I think it is unfortunate that some former eckists still
                want to cling to the teachings of eckankar, to continue to praise
                Paul Twitchell and quote him, and even HK, etc. It seems to me that
                these individuals have not learned much and certainly remain stuck.

                I really wonder if these former eckists are regretting that they
                left and would like to return--of course, if they could go back into
                the org with their former H.I. initiations intact--but of course,
                that would never happen as HK has clearly stated in a recent Mystic
                World Wisdom Note that someone returning would lose all levels of
                initiations and be put back as a first initiate. Then, one would
                have to wonder if one would even progress from there--I'm sure the
                shunning and black balling would be all so obvious. I don't believe
                that eckists would welcome such "traitors" back with open arms!

                But I suppose if you hang around in new groups and believe that
                eckankar was a necessary stepping stone to greater consciousness,
                one would be delusional enough to think the eck initiations have not
                been lost at all, and one has risen even higher--way above the rest
                of the spiritual seekers--and one would feel very lofty indeed. One
                might even think that they are in a more joyful place than say those
                of us who keep on with a responsibility of calling eckankar for what
                it is, a fraud and deceiver of faith. : )

                IMO, no one has gone beyond or even left eckankar when one continues
                to praise its teachings. One has not learned that those teachings
                were full of lies and deceptions which actually took the spiritual
                seeker off his path to God rather than showing a more direct route!

                Mish
              • Freefrom
                Hi mish and all, Yes I read some similar posts at HCS, maybe the same ones, about how those who critisize eckankar supposedly did not learn what they were
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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                  Hi mish and all,

                  Yes I read some similar posts at HCS, maybe the same ones, about how
                  those who critisize eckankar supposedly did not learn what they were
                  supposed to have learned from the Kult, and that is to remain silent.
                  I can only guess as to what they are talking about. Why are they so
                  defensive about eckankult? It is almost as if they are saying that
                  they really enjoyed and learned a lot from the spiritual abuse they
                  got. Spiritual abuse is therefore a necessary step toward spiritual
                  enlightenment? People who really believe this, IMO, will be more
                  likely to feel justified in abusing others in a similar way that they
                  were abused. I say watch out and run away as fast as you can from such
                  persons who probably have con tendencies, that is they are dishonest.
                  They would probably think it is also just fine to pay a whore to
                  sexually abuse them as well! Maybe some whips and chains,etc.lol THis
                  is crap. As far as I can tell, they are still eckists. They would be
                  better off to just admit it. As far as being angry, so what, but it is
                  more annoying than anything. THey seem to be defending eckankar more
                  than anything. It's like they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour.
                  I'm sure klemp types would be very pleased with their attitude, very
                  very pleased! Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck
                  trolls posting. LOL

                  Freefrom

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                  <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  ................snip

                  I keep reading comments by eckists and former eckists who continue
                  to believe that they learned so much from the eckankar experience.
                  Some "idiot" former eckists even believe that those who continue to
                  point out the lies and deceptions in eckankar in such a forum as
                  this one are angry individuals who cannot move on with life. This is
                  so far from the truth. I'm not angry--I just feel an obligation to
                  keep the real truth about eckankar exposed so that others who are in
                  the org might take the step to leave, and it might keep newbies from
                  joining. Eckankar is not a necessary adventure and its teachings do
                  not contain anything special for anyone who's been there to need to
                  give thanks for or value it. Whatever one has learned about
                  spiritual matters while participating in eckankar has been despite
                  the trappings of eckankar. I think it is so foolish for an
                  individual, as I read recently on HCS, to state that those of us who
                  are sharing the negative truths about eckankar did not learn
                  anything from the teachings, stating this as though learning nothing
                  from the eck teachings is a terrible thing. LOL! Well, I did learn
                  some things about eckankar--I learned about lies, I learned about
                  ego driven people who like to control others, and I learned what a
                  waste of time it is, among other things. I think it is unfortunate
                  that some former eckists still want to cling to the teachings of
                  eckankar, to continue to praise Paul Twitchell and quote him, and
                  even HK, etc. It seems to me that these individuals have not learned
                  much and certainly remain stuck. I really wonder if these former
                  eckists are regretting that they left and would like to return--of
                  course, if they could go back into the org with their former H.I.
                  initiations intact--but of course, that would never happen as HK has
                  clearly stated in a recent Mystic World Wisdom Note that someone
                  returning would lose all levels of initiations and be put back as a
                  first initiate. Then, one would have to wonder if one would even
                  progress from there--I'm sure the shunning and black balling would
                  be all so obvious. I don't believe that eckists would welcome
                  such "traitors" back with open arms! But I suppose if you hang
                  around in new groups and believe that eckankar was a necessary
                  stepping stone to greater consciousness, one would be delusional
                  enough to think the eck initiations have not been lost at all, and
                  one has risen even higher--way above the rest of the spiritual
                  seekers--and one would feel very lofty indeed. One might even think
                  that they are in a more joyful place than say those of us who keep
                  on with a responsibility of calling eckankar for what it is, a fraud
                  and deceiver of faith. : ) IMO, no one has gone beyond or even left
                  eckankar when one continues to praise its teachings. One has not
                  learned that those teachings were full of lies and deceptions which
                  actually took the spiritual seeker off his path to God rather than
                  showing a more direct route!

                  Mish
                • mishmisha9
                  Freefrom wrote: THey seem to be defending eckankar more than anything. It s like they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I m sure klemp types would be
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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                    Freefrom wrote:

                    THey seem to be defending eckankar more> than anything. It's like
                    they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I'm sure klemp types
                    would be very pleased with their attitude, very very pleased!
                    Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck trolls posting.
                    LOL
                    >
                    > Freefrom
                    >


                    Mish replies:

                    This is what happens when there is so much permissiveness on a site
                    like HCS. Ford approves all posts and is open to allowing all
                    thoughts and opinions which leaves HCS as scattered and unorganized
                    as a group consciousness. It also permits posters to be "nasty" to
                    one another as well--so in the end, the group is not very collective
                    at all. Basically, it is an organization with no central belief as
                    everything is "good." It reminds me of children being allowed to do
                    anything without consequences. The parents do not take
                    responsibility in parenting as it is an "anything goes" belief
                    system. However, in the real world, it doesn't happen that way.

                    It is unfortunate that Ford cannot get his band together. His focus
                    on revealing the lies and deceptions in eckankar was a good
                    beginning, but it has not gone anywhere since IMO! I think people
                    just need to understand how they can be easily duped by religious
                    cons, and beyond that they realize it is their Higher Self that
                    leads them to God-realization. They don't need eckankar or any other
                    religion to take them there, and they don't need HCS to "teach" them
                    how to achieve this either. : )

                    Mish
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for granted such
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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                      Hello All,

                      This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think and
                      contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for
                      granted such as the group consciousness of: societies; religions;
                      organizations; communities.

                      Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
                      together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!) there are other
                      factors that either makes this statement true or inaccurate when it
                      comes to people. Is there a collective group consciousness in
                      Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual consciousness tuned into
                      its own specific frequency? With circles of initiation in Eckankar
                      perhaps it is viewed that the higher one goes the closer one is to
                      that perfect wave length. Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned
                      into 97.3 rather than 97.1 or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many
                      circles of initiation and minor inner initiations (inbetween the
                      recognized and final stage or confirmation to the major outer
                      initiations) how can there be a true group consciousness? However,
                      if there is then what is the level of this group consciousness? Is
                      it the total average of all members (or each circle?) or is it only
                      as great as its weakest link! Are there different groups of
                      consciousness and Not one Group Consciousness within Eckankar? If
                      there are different groups of consciousness, as well as birds with
                      individual consciousness, there would certainly be different "flocks
                      of birds" within a religion or society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the
                      head bird look like that brings all of these other flocks
                      together... (HK!) and what makes one bird greater than another?

                      Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made up
                      of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
                      well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
                      flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
                      of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
                      these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
                      muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
                      beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
                      though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
                      see your true Master!

                      Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he have
                      leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
                      higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
                      he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
                      defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
                      knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

                      B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of
                      Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke;
                      The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con
                      of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell! These are
                      just a few of the things that they have shared on TS/HCS. They also
                      plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts. Yet, with all of
                      this along with their rudeness and intolerance to the insights of
                      others, always needing to be right, putting others down for having a
                      different POV from theirs, flattering to gain support, always having
                      to have the last word, and their passive/aggressiveness towards
                      Ford... Ford still gives them free reign as leaders on his BBs and
                      as his HCS Canadian Representatives! Fascinating!!! LOL!

                      Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved Souls
                      with many different points of view on various subjects. This is also
                      why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks that if
                      people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that this will
                      help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what is not.
                      But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that Eckankar
                      had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft, and the
                      blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual advantage
                      over others then how does Ford think that these people are capable
                      of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
                      consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

                      This confuses me as to what kind of a "society" that Ford is
                      attempting to create. The Higher Consciousness Society, for me, is
                      more of an oxymoron when his "leaders" cannot exhibit even a meeting
                      of the mind with Ford's own philosophy and opinions that he has
                      expressed in his book! How can Ford support the views of his HCS
                      leaders, unless, he also sees these beliefs as valid and true!

                      Once again, we come back to the concept of group consciousness. It
                      is obvious that not everyone in a group sees eye-to-eye even with
                      the leader of the group let alone with other members. So, why don't
                      people find a group with those they have more in common with? Or
                      start their own group! People just want to belong to something it
                      seems. It's like belonging to a dysfunctional (normal) family. It
                      feels comfortable for each member knowing their role and having
                      similar expectations which gives the feeling of security and having
                      knowledge of (limited or imagined) control over life. Doesn't a
                      group consciousness really offer a false sense of security and
                      control over one's life?! Everyone's in agreement and the more the
                      merrier! And, if everyone in the world would agree that would really
                      make it so wouldn't it! Then there would be nothing to fear!

                      Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit that
                      it is nice to be able to share things with like minded individuals
                      and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

                      However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
                      members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money and
                      volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it any
                      wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored... it
                      shouldn't be! Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer
                      their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
                      illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
                      members rather than on the quality of consciousness! This is why
                      religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher quality of
                      consciousness to their members because to do so they wouldn't be
                      able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring conflict to
                      the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS will not be for
                      those seeking higher consciousness!

                      Prometheus




                      Freefrom wrote:

                      THey seem to be defending eckankar more> than anything. It's like
                      they are still deluded. Very odd behaviour. I'm sure klemp types
                      would be very pleased with their attitude, very very pleased!
                      Perhaps HCS doesn't realize that they have some eck trolls posting.
                      LOL


                      Mish replies:

                      This is what happens when there is so much permissiveness on a site
                      like HCS. Ford approves all posts and is open to allowing all
                      thoughts and opinions which leaves HCS as scattered and unorganized
                      as a group consciousness. It also permits posters to be "nasty" to
                      one another as well--so in the end, the group is not very collective
                      at all. Basically, it is an organization with no central belief as
                      everything is "good." It reminds me of children being allowed to do
                      anything without consequences. The parents do not take
                      responsibility in parenting as it is an "anything goes" belief
                      system. However, in the real world, it doesn't happen that way.

                      It is unfortunate that Ford cannot get his band together. His focus
                      on revealing the lies and deceptions in eckankar was a good
                      beginning, but it has not gone anywhere since IMO! I think people
                      just need to understand how they can be easily duped by religious
                      cons, and beyond that they realize it is their Higher Self that
                      leads them to God-realization. They don't need eckankar or any other
                      religion to take them there, and they don't need HCS to "teach" them
                      how to achieve this either. : )
                    • ctecvie
                      Hello Prometheus and all, ... *** That s what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it should be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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                        Hello Prometheus and all,

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        >
                        > This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
                        >and
                        > contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take for
                        > granted such as the group consciousness of: societies; religions;
                        > organizations; communities.

                        ***Contemplate?? ;-)))
                        >
                        > Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
                        > together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

                        *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

                        >there are other
                        > factors that either makes this statement true or inaccurate when
                        >it
                        > comes to people. Is there a collective group consciousness in
                        > Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual consciousness tuned into
                        > its own specific frequency?

                        *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
                        be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
                        seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
                        individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
                        And of what HCS is, too.

                        >With circles of initiation in Eckankar
                        > perhaps it is viewed that the higher one goes the closer one is to
                        > that perfect wave length. Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned
                        > into 97.3 rather than 97.1 or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many
                        > circles of initiation and minor inner initiations (inbetween the
                        > recognized and final stage or confirmation to the major outer
                        > initiations) how can there be a true group consciousness?

                        *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

                        > However,
                        > if there is then what is the level of this group consciousness? Is
                        > it the total average of all members (or each circle?) or is it
                        >only
                        > as great as its weakest link!

                        *** The smallest denominator? :-)

                        > Are there different groups of
                        > consciousness and Not one Group Consciousness within Eckankar? If
                        > there are different groups of consciousness, as well as birds with
                        > individual consciousness, there would certainly be
                        >different "flocks
                        > of birds" within a religion or society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does
                        >the
                        > head bird look like that brings all of these other flocks
                        > together... (HK!) and what makes one bird greater than another?

                        *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
                        says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
                        bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
                        who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
                        to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
                        stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
                        because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
                        could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
                        the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

                        > Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made up
                        > of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
                        > well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
                        > flock of birds with one following another. But what of other
                        >flocks
                        > of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
                        > these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of
                        >making
                        > muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
                        > beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
                        > though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want
                        >to
                        > see your true Master!

                        *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather pecking
                        each other! LOL!
                        >
                        > Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
                        >have
                        > leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
                        > higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
                        > he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising
                        >and
                        > defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
                        > knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

                        *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
                        man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                        the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                        has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
                        >
                        > B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
                        >of
                        > Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
                        >Icke;
                        > The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the
                        >con
                        > of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

                        *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ... you
                        have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons will
                        follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who seek
                        development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
                        and "lower" planes.

                        > These are
                        > just a few of the things that they have shared on TS/HCS. They
                        >also
                        > plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts. Yet, with all of
                        > this along with their rudeness and intolerance to the insights of
                        > others, always needing to be right, putting others down for having
                        >a
                        > different POV from theirs, flattering to gain support, always
                        >having
                        > to have the last word, and their passive/aggressiveness towards
                        > Ford... Ford still gives them free reign as leaders on his BBs and
                        > as his HCS Canadian Representatives! Fascinating!!! LOL!

                        *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say! I
                        can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
                        pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

                        >
                        > Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
                        >Souls
                        > with many different points of view on various subjects. This is
                        >also
                        > why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks that
                        >if
                        > people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that this will
                        > help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what is not.
                        > But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
                        >Eckankar
                        > had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft, and the
                        > blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
                        >advantage
                        > over others then how does Ford think that these people are capable
                        > of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
                        > consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

                        *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as best
                        I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
                        personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
                        from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                        position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                        well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                        wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                        Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                        wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                        course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                        is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                        ---- snip ----

                        > Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
                        >that
                        > it is nice to be able to share things with like minded individuals
                        > and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

                        *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
                        here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
                        just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
                        course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
                        why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
                        beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
                        bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
                        is clear in my opinion.
                        >
                        > However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
                        > members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
                        >and
                        > volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
                        >any
                        > wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
                        >it
                        > shouldn't be!

                        *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
                        brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
                        are very important to the organization.

                        >Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer
                        > their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                        >shared
                        > illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
                        > members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

                        *** This is what comes of it ...

                        >This is why
                        > religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher quality of
                        > consciousness to their members because to do so they wouldn't be
                        > able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring conflict
                        >to
                        > the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS will not be
                        >for
                        > those seeking higher consciousness!

                        ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
                        really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
                        achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
                        me. :-))

                        Ingrid
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hi Ingrid, Just thought I d make some more comments. Thanks for the response! ctecvie wrote: Hello Prometheus and all, Prometheus wrote: ***This is very
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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                          Hi Ingrid,

                          Just thought I'd make some more comments. Thanks for the response!



                          ctecvie wrote:

                          Hello Prometheus and all,

                          Prometheus wrote:
                          ***This is very interesting (IMO) because it has gotten me to think
                          and contemplate on certain concepts that some people tend to take
                          for granted such as the group consciousness of: societies;
                          religions; organizations; communities.

                          > ***Contemplate?? ;-)))

                          Me: Well I guess "ponder" would be more accurate. I sometimes try to
                          use Eck speak or their "common language" for the Eckists reading
                          these postings in order to communicate better. I do emphasize with
                          them and understand their frustrations as we all do. Actually, I
                          struggled, somewhat, to use "contemplate." It just doesn't feel
                          right anymore. LOL!

                          ***Klemp said, in his 2005 EWWS talk, that "birds of a feather flock
                          together." As profound as this observation is (LOL!)

                          > *** Profound and true indeed! LOL!

                          Me: Yes, HK overstates the obvious and understates everything else!

                          ***there are other factors that either makes this statement true or
                          inaccurate when it comes to people. Is there a collective group
                          consciousness in Eckankar (and HCS) or is it an individual
                          consciousness tuned into its own specific frequency?

                          > *** That's what is so confusing, IMO. On the one hand, it "should"
                          be a collective group consciousness (between the lines as I have
                          seen it denied most of the times), and on the other hand all those
                          individuals have quite different perceptions of what Eckankar is.
                          And of what HCS is, too.

                          Me: Choosing a religion is like choosing a house to live in. How far
                          away is the location, what features does it have, what can I live
                          with, what needs to be changed, what is the climate like, etc., etc.
                          the list goes on and on. Or, maybe one can do a semi custom home or
                          a custom design instead of buying a spec house. Imagination,
                          illusion, and purpose are all factors. But, one still needs a nice
                          lot to build upon... or not!

                          ***With circles of initiation in Eckankar perhaps it is viewed that
                          the higher one goes the closer one is to that perfect wave length.
                          Therefore, the Eckist needs to be tuned into 97.3 rather than 97.1
                          or 97.2 or even 97.4! But, with so many circles of initiation and
                          minor inner initiations (inbetween the recognized and final stage or
                          confirmation to the major outer initiations) how can there be a true
                          group consciousness?

                          > *** There is none and can't ever be, I think.

                          Me: There are those that we have much in common with on an
                          inner "spiritual" level or in Consciousness. Perhaps we are members
                          of the same cluster of Souls. Those on this site have much in
                          common, and there are others, elsewhere, we have much in common with
                          too.

                          ***However, if there is then what is the level of this group
                          consciousness? Is it the total average of all members (or each
                          circle?) or is it only as great as its weakest link!

                          > *** The smallest denominator? :-)

                          Me: It could be. People do tend to pull others down to their level
                          or sometimes the awakening is that those one thought were on a lower
                          level were actually on the same or higher level! Klemp via his
                          deceit is definitely on a lower level of consciousness than many of
                          his Eck followers!

                          ***Are there different groups of consciousness and Not one Group
                          Consciousness within Eckankar? If there are different groups of
                          consciousness, as well as birds with individual consciousness, there
                          would certainly be different "flocks of birds" within a religion or
                          society. Hmmmmmmmm. So what does the head bird look like that brings
                          all of these other flocks together... (HK!) and what makes one bird
                          greater than another?

                          > *** It's quite clear that the head bird looks like HK - and that
                          says a lot! By the way, I have heard that at the WW, he seemed like
                          bones, and that he had difficulties getting to his chair. The person
                          who told this thought that maybe he was transported in a wheelchair
                          to get behind the scene. This person assumed, too, that maybe HK
                          stays longer than 2 cycles to make it easier for his successor
                          because HK could take on more of the karma! And that this successor
                          could be Peter Skelskey - no surprise there for me as he has been
                          the puppet master for quite some time IMO!

                          Me: If Klemp takes on karma for people then why do bad things happen
                          to Eckists? If it's because they need the experiences then where is
                          the karma that HK is supposedly taking on? I know that Klump likes
                          to have it both ways, but how stupid are Eckists?! The woman that
                          freaked out at the 2005 EWWS is a perfect example of no Mahanta
                          protection or guidance. Where was her Mahanta? Or, is this an
                          example of her learning through experience? If so, then how does
                          this differ with everyone else in the world learning through their
                          experiences? And, (according to Eckankar) doesn't the Kal control
                          Karma and the all powerful Mahanta only steps in on occasion?!
                          Eckists' brains have atrophied!

                          ***Then again it seems that Klemp is stating that Eckankar is made
                          up of just one flock of birds and, therefore, has a pecking order as
                          well! Maybe this is how group consciousness is really seen... as a
                          flock of birds with one following another. But what of other flocks
                          of the same feather? Are the RESAs seen as the flock leaders of
                          these birds of the same feather? Klemp has a wonderful way of making
                          muddy water glisten. But shouldn't Klemp (the Mahanta) be looking
                          beyond one feather of bird if he was a true master?! He's not
                          though, and like I've said before look in the mirror if you want to
                          see your true Master!

                          > *** This pecking order is interesting! Birds of one feather
                          pecking each other! LOL!

                          Me: Yes there is a lot of that (and more!) going on within Eckankar.

                          ***Anyway, it seems Ford is kind of off track as well. How can he
                          have leaders like Betty and Mario and expect to build a "society" of
                          higher consciousness?! His leaders should at least agree with what
                          he has written about Twitchell and Eckankar rather than praising and
                          defending Twitchell, as well as, all of the great "spiritual
                          knowledge" learned while in Eckankar! Amazing!

                          > *** I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the
                          man out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                          the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                          has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

                          Me: It does seem like he still hangs onto some of the rituals (and
                          expanding on them) like the spiritual exercises three times a day.
                          There's a lot of inner focus too. Most Eckists who reject the outer
                          RESA structure, EWS (ECK Worship Service), guidelines, trainings,
                          Vahana/missionary work, donations, etc. focus on the inner, mostly,
                          as well.

                          ***B & M believe in, as well as, quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con
                          of Adam DreamHealer; the myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David
                          Icke; The Committee of 300; the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea;
                          the con of TranceFormation of America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

                          > *** It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my view ...
                          you have to get that con out of the system and then all other cons
                          will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for people who
                          seek development outside themselves and still think in "higher"
                          and "lower" planes.

                          Me: It's good until one sees the nutty conspiracy posts along with
                          the Eckists attacking people. There's just too much permissiveness
                          by Ford. Even freedom requires responsibility or a safe environment
                          to protect those from the irresponsible few.

                          ***These are just a few of the things that they have shared on
                          TS/HCS. They also plagarize and mimic other sources in their posts.
                          Yet, with all of this along with their rudeness and intolerance to
                          the insights of others, always needing to be right, putting others
                          down for having a different POV from theirs, flattering to gain
                          support, always having to have the last word, and their
                          passive/aggressiveness towards Ford... Ford still gives them free
                          reign as leaders on his BBs and as his HCS Canadian Representatives!
                          Fascinating!!! LOL!

                          > *** Well Ford sees them obviously as "highly evolved" as you say!
                          I can see, too, what B & M are doing in order to get up on that high
                          pedestal they were on as HIs in Eckankar again!

                          Me: Yes, vanity and ego (power over others) is part of the game that
                          was learned and rewarded while in Eckankar.


                          ***Ford tends to see everyone on his BBs as being highly evolved
                          Souls with many different points of view on various subjects. This
                          is also why he doesn't want to play the role of censor. Ford thinks
                          that if people just embrace Part IV of his book and the NSP that
                          this will help them to distinguish what is useful for them and what
                          is not. But, if some HCS members are still hung up on thinking that
                          Eckankar had value and that Twitchell's lies, distortions, theft,
                          and the blending together of other religions gave them a spiritual
                          advantage over others then how does Ford think that these people are
                          capable of seeing what he is promoting. This doesn't even take into
                          consideration all of the other crap that I've previously mentioned.

                          > *** I have come to see life as one, and for me, living life as
                          best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working on my
                          personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a lot
                          from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                          position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                          well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                          wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                          Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                          wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                          course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                          is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                          ---- snip ----

                          Me: Well said!

                          ***Actually, there's nothing to fear anyway. I will have to admit
                          that it is nice to be able to share things with like minded
                          individuals and that is why we have this site and the restrictions.

                          > *** Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong anywhere. But
                          here we don't pay any fees and don't study any discourses - we are
                          just a bunch of like-minded people. There are restrictions, of
                          course, but they are known and not hidden as in Eckankar! I wonder
                          why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS BBs are read
                          beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away? What would be so
                          bad about that? If it's made known that this is so then everything
                          is clear in my opinion.

                          Me: There is censorship on TS/HCS. I've seen one of Mario's (not too
                          long ago) deleted after it went up. It must have been very nasty for
                          Ford to have done that! I've also seen....... in posts which
                          indicate that something was removed. However, I'm more amazed at the
                          passive/aggressive posts towards Ford, from Mario and keyed in by
                          Betty, that Ford allows to go up! And, why does he allow B&M (his
                          HCS reps) to support Twitchell and The Tiger's Fang?!

                          ***However, when religions and other organizations try to recruit
                          members the requirement for membership becomes very loose. Money
                          and volunteer efforts have more value than does consciousness. Is it
                          any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and ignorance is ignored...
                          it shouldn't be!

                          > *** But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M have
                          brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then they
                          are very important to the organization.

                          Me: I would say that they have driven off more members (and will
                          continue to) than those who have joined (if any) due to them. I
                          would also question the quality (consciousness and goals) of members
                          joining due to Betty and Mario's influence.

                          ***Therefore, what do these groups really have to offer their
                          members? It seems like it is only a generic version of shared
                          illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the quantity of
                          members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

                          > *** This is what comes of it ...

                          Me: There are no standards, but what kind of test could there be for
                          membership? Should there be a yearly review? An oversight committee?
                          LOL! Eckankar probably has so many of these that just spy on people
                          and project this or that as busy work and distraction for the higher
                          ups to feel important to the Mahanta's mission! LOL!

                          ***This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not offer a higher
                          quality of consciousness to their members because to do so they
                          wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they only bring
                          conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also why HCS
                          will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

                          > ***Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the power is
                          really and truly theirs and that they don't need any organization to
                          achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later, but that's only
                          me. :-))


                          Me: Me too! I hope that this site is helping people to see this and
                          to feel free to share their experiences and insights.

                          Prometheus
                        • mishmisha9
                          Hi, Ingrid and All! Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to interject with a few comments! : ) Ingrid wrote: I always like what Sharon
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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                            Hi, Ingrid and All!

                            Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
                            interject with a few comments! : )

                            Ingrid wrote:
                            I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
                            out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                            the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                            has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.

                            Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
                            Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
                            with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
                            after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
                            any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
                            eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
                            contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
                            Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                            like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                            letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
                            Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
                            see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
                            jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.

                            ######

                            Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
                            quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
                            myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
                            the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
                            America: the con of Paul Twitchell!

                            Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
                            view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
                            other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
                            people who seek development outside themselves and still think
                            in "higher" and "lower" planes.

                            Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
                            would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
                            others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
                            conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
                            videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
                            of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
                            manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
                            letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
                            video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
                            over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
                            someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
                            I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
                            Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
                            who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
                            to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
                            I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
                            have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
                            does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
                            down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
                            Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
                            circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
                            outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
                            points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
                            different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
                            have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
                            lost.

                            You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
                            open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
                            difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
                            have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
                            have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
                            advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
                            the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
                            As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
                            that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
                            intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
                            Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
                            want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
                            people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
                            uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
                            to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
                            alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
                            movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
                            thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
                            attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
                            be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
                            of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
                            therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
                            time! : )


                            ###############

                            Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
                            life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
                            on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
                            lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                            position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                            well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                            wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                            Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                            wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                            course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                            is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?

                            Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
                            learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
                            unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )

                            ############

                            Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
                            anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
                            discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
                            restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
                            Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
                            BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
                            What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
                            then everything is clear in my opinion.

                            Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
                            It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
                            that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
                            administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
                            incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
                            I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
                            It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
                            means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
                            views of others.

                            Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
                            try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
                            loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
                            consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
                            ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!


                            Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )

                            Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
                            have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
                            they are very important to the organization.


                            Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
                            that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
                            more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
                            brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
                            out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
                            not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.


                            Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
                            offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                            shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
                            quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!

                            Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
                            in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
                            might?" Which do you choose?

                            Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
                            offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
                            do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
                            only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
                            why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!

                            Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
                            power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
                            organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
                            but that's only me. :-))

                            Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
                            problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
                            eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
                            Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
                            I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
                            I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
                            organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
                            have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
                            stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
                            confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
                            manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.

                            Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
                            life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )

                            Mish
                          • Freefrom
                            I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without someone imposing their ideas
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 12, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I like what Mish and Ingrid have to say here. It is all about
                              spiritual freedom, true spiritual freedom, the freedom to be without
                              someone imposing their ideas onto me as some kind of dogma or teaching
                              per se. AS Mish stated: "I enjoy being free to allow
                              > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                              > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                              > letting It to flow naturally."

                              Freefrom


                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                              <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi, Ingrid and All!
                              >
                              > Glad to read your post in reply to Prometheus! I just want to
                              > interject with a few comments! : )
                              >
                              > Ingrid wrote:
                              > I always like what Sharon keeps saying: "It's easy to take the man
                              > out of the cult and quite another thing to take the cult out of
                              > the man"! So very wise! I think Ford is a good man but basically he
                              > has all the Eckankar stuff still in himself.
                              >
                              > Mish: I agree with what Sharon is saying and also your observation.
                              > Ford is a very nice man. For myself, I don't want to get involved
                              > with a movement that will fill in the free space that was created
                              > after leaving Eckankar--I don't want to do vahana-type activities
                              > any longer. I feel guilty yet for what I did in this regard as an
                              > eckist. I have also enjoyed taking a breather from the
                              > contemplations and spiritual exercises. I enjoy being free to allow
                              > Spirit to reveal Itself without "pushing" for such experiences. I
                              > like being aware in the now and being open still in my dream state,
                              > letting It to flow naturally. I would be interested, however, to see
                              > Ford continue to expose the truths about eckankar. I would hate to
                              > see him move on from that. As I have said before, his book is a
                              > jewel for revealing the deceits and lies in eckankar.
                              >
                              > ######
                              >
                              > Prometheus wrote: B & M believe in, as well as,
                              > quote/paraphrase/plagarize: the con of Adam DreamHealer; the
                              > myth/con of Bigfoot; the neo-Nazi David Icke; The Committee of 300;
                              > the Illuminati; the con of Cassiopaea; the con of TranceFormation of
                              > America: the con of Paul Twitchell!
                              >
                              > Ingrid wrote: It all started with the con of Paul Twitchell in my
                              > view ... you have to get that con out of the system and then all
                              > other cons will follow suit! HCS and other movements are good for
                              > people who seek development outside themselves and still think
                              > in "higher" and "lower" planes.
                              >
                              > Mish: I think after experiencing the fraud of eckankar that one
                              > would be more skeptical and less likely to believe so readily what
                              > others are promoting. I can't imagine being open to being so easily
                              > conned again. I know on some of these internet sites that flash
                              > videos are often used to convince readers that something is evidence
                              > of proof. To me, the flash videos are just techniques used to
                              > manipulate the viewer's mind into believing the spin. The viewer is
                              > letting himself to become self-brain washed. Why not use a slower
                              > video? Why the use of a flash? What is the purpose of watching it
                              > over and over--maybe to program the mind to believe something
                              > someone else wants you to believe badly??? I think so!
                              > I agree with Ingrid too that you have to get the con of Paul
                              > Twitchell out of your system--obviously, there are former eckists
                              > who cannot let go to PT's con and still promote his "teachings" even
                              > to the extent of criticizing those who let go of it all! : )
                              > I also chuckle when I read comments about up there and down here--
                              > have you ever heard anyone reference down there as well??? LOL! Why
                              > does one have to view the states of consciousness as up there and
                              > down here? Perhaps, it's just different points within a circle.
                              > Consciousness is simply represented by different points within the
                              > circle which is unique to each of us--multi-dimensional, inside,
                              > outside, etc. Not really up and down, not lateral--just different
                              > points of focus, but it's all progressive, because you already have
                              > different points of reference you have experienced. If you don't
                              > have the reference points, you can however become disoriented and
                              > lost.
                              >
                              > You know as far as Betty and Mario are concerned, I know they are
                              > open to believe all and everything, and that they are having a
                              > difficult time letting go of the eck teachings, etc. They feel they
                              > have advanced because of their years in eckankar, and I'm sure they
                              > have in certain ways, but until they let go and recognize that the
                              > advancement was of their own doing, they really are still stuck in
                              > the fraudulent teachings. It is difficult for them to let go of it.
                              > As for their belief of some of these other theories, well, I guess
                              > that is fine for them, but they demonstrate frustration and
                              > intolerance to those who will not embrace these beliefs with them.
                              > Ask them for proof or more info and they are never forthcoming--they
                              > want others to dig deeply to find these so called truths. Well, most
                              > people are not interested in doing that, finding it unnecessary,
                              > uninteresting, or in doing research seeing red flags that warn not
                              > to go there, etc. It has been mentioned before that some of these
                              > alternative info sources like Icke have connections to neo-nazi
                              > movements. I certainly would not want to be a part of that kind of
                              > thinking, and I see it as dangerous. I don't like their superior
                              > attitude that comes from this so-called "knowledge" they claim to
                              > be "truth." And the fear factor that is always thrown into the mix
                              > of their discussions. . . as truth-seekers there is no need to fear;
                              > therefore, all the focus on doom and gloom is a waste of thought and
                              > time! : )
                              >
                              >
                              > ###############
                              >
                              > Ingrid wrote: I have come to see life as one, and for me, living
                              > life as best I can has become my primary goal. This includes working
                              > on my personality and being as authentic as we can. We can learn a
                              > lot from people, but they don't need to be in any outside "teacher"
                              > position (but of course it's possible to meet such teacher people as
                              > well). Just take the next man on the street! I know so many
                              > wonderful people and they have been around me for quite a while.
                              > Eckankar has gone but those friends are still there and they are as
                              > wise as ever, they haven't changed (except for the better of
                              > course). Why embrace a religion and movement when everything we need
                              > is just there, outside and inside of ourselves if we care to look?
                              >
                              > Mish: I agree with this too! This is where our focus should be. I
                              > learn much from the interaction with others and often at the most
                              > unlikely of times. It can very well be the man on the street! : )
                              >
                              > ############
                              >
                              > Ingrid wrote: Yes, it is, and I agree that it's nice to belong
                              > anywhere. But here we don't pay any fees and don't study any
                              > discourses - we are just a bunch of like-minded people. There are
                              > restrictions, of course, but they are known and not hidden as in
                              > Eckankar! I wonder why, given that every contribution to the HCS/TS
                              > BBs are read beforehand, they don't censor the posts right away?
                              > What would be so bad about that? If it's made known that this is so
                              > then everything is clear in my opinion.
                              >
                              > Mish: I think it is best not to put a post up, and then delete it.
                              > It would be embarrassing and more annoying to the poster to have
                              > that done. Nothing wrong with censoring, especially, if the site
                              > administrator privately explains this to the poster. It would be
                              > incorporating and enforcing some sort of guidelines to a site, which
                              > I believe is necessary to prevent chaos and dissention on the site.
                              > It doesn't mean agreeing with everyone all of the time, rather, it
                              > means keeping focus on the topics, and to also be sensitive to the
                              > views of others.
                              >
                              > Prometheus wrote: However, when religions and other organizations
                              > try to recruit members the requirement for membership becomes very
                              > loose. Money and volunteer efforts have more value than does
                              > consciousness. Is it any wonder then why so much misbehaviour and
                              > ignorance is ignored... it shouldn't be!
                              >
                              >
                              > Mish: Yes, money always talks, doesn't it! : )
                              >
                              > Ingrid wrote: But it's necessary to recruit members! I'm sure B & M
                              > have brought some people to HCS, and if they continue doing so, then
                              > they are very important to the organization.
                              >
                              >
                              > Mish: B & M probably did bring some people to HCS, but I believe
                              > that many have left because of them as well. I would venture that
                              > more have left because they were turned off my the discussions they
                              > brought to the BBs. It is interesting that some posters have spoken
                              > out to bring an end to those particular discussions recently, so I'm
                              > not sure that there is much support for them in that regard.
                              >
                              >
                              > Prometheus wrote: Therefore, what do these groups really have to
                              > offer their members? It seems like it is only a generic version of
                              > shared illusion since the leadership focus seems to be on the
                              > quantity of members rather than on the quality of consciousness!
                              >
                              > Mish: Yes, it becomes a numbers game as well as a money game! Power
                              > in numbers--but is it "might makes right" or is it "right makes
                              > might?" Which do you choose?
                              >
                              > Prometheus wrote: This is why religions, Eckankar included, do not
                              > offer a higher quality of consciousness to their members because to
                              > do so they wouldn't be able to pass the test of Truth. Instead, they
                              > only bring conflict to the true spiritual seeker. And, this is also
                              > why HCS will not be for those seeking higher consciousness!
                              >
                              > Ingrid wrote: Perhaps it will help some people to discover that the
                              > power is really and truly theirs and that they don't need any
                              > organization to achieve that! I'd rather see that sooner than later,
                              > but that's only me. :-))
                              >
                              > Mish: I'm sure that there are things to learn from HCS, but the
                              > problem would be if members used it as a crutch as they did in
                              > eckankar. I am enjoying the freedom that I have now very much.
                              > Before I joined eckankar, I was a christian of sorts and felt that
                              > I "should" believe those teachings; however, since leaving eckankar,
                              > I have evolved into a free spirit who can now recognize that no
                              > organized religion or other people's path is necessary in order to
                              > have faith and belief in Divine Spirit! It is much more pure to
                              > stand alone--and it is also good to not be operating within the
                              > confines of a limited belief system that is controlled and
                              > manipulated by those who want to lead whoever they can. I am content.
                              >
                              > Anyway, interesting discussions. Interesting twists and turns as
                              > life moves on after our eckankar experiences! : )
                              >
                              > Mish
                              >
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