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Eckankar: October 2005 Youth in Eck Letter of Light

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi All, Klemp avoids answering all of the questions posed to him in Questions for the Master. I ll number each question asked by this young Eckist. [Q]:
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 11, 2005
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      Hi All,
      Klemp avoids answering all of the questions posed to him
      in "Questions for the Master." I'll number each question asked by
      this young Eckist.

      [Q]: (1)"Is there a difference between being a Co-worker with God,
      an ECK Master, and a God-Realized person? (2) Is one more evolved
      than the others, (3) and can you be one without being the others?
      (4) If, throughout many lifetimes, Soul unfolds spiritually, how can
      It manifest Its ultimate spiritual destiny within one lifetime? (5)
      How does this work? (6) What's the spiritual finish line in the
      physical?" --Anke Johannsen, age 24 Freiburg, Germany

      Me: Actually the first question could have three different answers
      or just one answer! The correct answer would be NO! This is because
      Eckankar's definition for a God-Realizeded person is very narrow
      (one has to be an Eckist) and the Co-worker and Eck Master concepts
      are just more cult fiction! But let's see what Little Harry has to
      say.

      HK: "Dear Anke, Yes, there is a difference. Up through the Eighth
      Initiation, an ECK initiate is a Co-worker with the Mahanta."

      Me: WRONG! Actually, Klemp created the dogma of the Co-worker with
      the Mahanta versus Co-worker with God or Sugmad. Just look at any
      Eckankar Dictionary by Twitchell (not the Lexicon) and look up Co-
      worker. Co-worker with God is the only "Co-worker" definition
      listed. The Shariyat does not mention Co-worker with the Mahanta,
      but states that the Nineth "has suffered, sacrificed, and
      surrendered himself to the ways of the ECK, UNDER [my caps] the
      Mahanta, the Living ECK Master."

      Therefore: (1) Co-worker with the Mahanta was created by Klemp; (2)
      There is still a connection with the Mahanta for the Ninth Initiate
      and Not as a Co-worker with God; (3) The Shariyat states that the
      Ninth is "under" the LEM/Mahanta and Not a Co-worker!

      HK: "The Ninth, Tenth, and even higher initiates, including those
      who enter the very heart of God, are all Co-workers with God."

      Me: But, the Ninth is Not an ECK Master or God-Realized! The Tenth
      is the ECK Master an is God-Realized... supposedly, and according to
      Twitchell's fabrications. Then again, these are just a few of the
      questions Klemp never addresses!

      HK: "The Eleventh Initiate, the Kevalshar, stands at the entrance
      into the SUGMAD world. He faces more tests before he may gain full
      entrance."

      Me: So where does this leave the Tenth if an Eleventh can't gain
      full entrance? We know that Klemp has some Ninths walking around...
      but the Law of Silence keeps most from knowing who they are.
      However, the Eighths have been told of their existence, and can make
      some educated guesses as to who some might be... like Joan. Anyhow,
      this is just another carrot being dangled to the Eck youth to make
      them into Klemp's drones to serve, sacrifice and surrender all to
      him... the LEM/Mahanta.

      HK: "Soul can manifest Its ultimate spiritual destiny by doing
      everything in the name of the Mahanta."

      Me: Yes, more brainwashing by using self-hypnotic suggestion.

      HK: "The Ninth, Tenth, and Eleventh Initiate does everything as a Co-
      worker with God. The Mahanta, however, accompanies It and offers
      help when needed."

      Me: It seems that even the Eckist who believes they are higher on
      the Inner is still Not free! When does real spiritual freedom occur
      for an Eckist?! I know! When they become the LEM/Mahanta! How many
      lifetimes will that take? Take a number and get in line... and No
      dishing people! Are you Eckists out there now beginning to see how
      this scam works?

      HK: "The Mahanta's work with It is done when It becomes an Initiate
      of the Twelfth Circle."

      Me: So, who is this "It?" Oh, I guess this "It" is Soul! So, like I
      said... take a number and get in line! Eventually, after years and
      years you will come to a point where those observing you will
      think... My, what patience that H.I. has! But, they confuse patience
      with Not giving a shit anymore don't they! LOL!

      HK: "So, Anke, there's no spiritual finish line in the physical. The
      shy's the limit."

      Me: Once more Klemp distorts the truth! He just said prior to this
      that the "Mahanta's work with It (Soul) is done when It (Soul)
      becomes an Initiate of the Twelfth Circle" so this is the spiritual
      finish line in the physical!

      I'm really didappointed that Klemp just doesn't make much of an
      effort at answering questions. But, he's got it made in the shade so
      why bother! He could just say nonsense, or more nonsense, and
      Eckists would read into it whatever they want. There is no critical
      thinking in Eckankar. It is interesting, though, that the Shariyat
      states this about the Ninth Initiate: "Of course, he cannot
      understand what this means at the stage of development in entering
      into the Ninth Circle, but it isn't long before his intellectual
      senses grasp the full significance of it." Isn't the intellect a
      Fourth or Mental Plane (and lower) faculty? This is the Ninth Plane!
      So how does "intellect" come into play? Probably because the Eck
      Initiations are just made up and fictional! It is just a control
      method that appeals to ones ego and gives the seeker a false sense
      of hope. It's really sad how Klemp plays mind games with the Eck
      Youth in hopes of creating more Eck-Borg drones. Klemp's Karma will
      eventually catch up to him and his cohorts. That should be
      interesting!

      Prometheus
    • mishmisha9
      Harold really exphasizes the co-worker with mahanta concept which is not a part of the question, but he does expound on it and well defines that the youth and
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 14, 2005
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        Harold really exphasizes the co-worker with mahanta concept which is
        not a part of the question, but he does expound on it and well
        defines that the youth and older initiates are expected to work
        their butts off to help Harold keep his power over all chelas. He
        finishes by saying that there is no finish line in the physical but
        the sky's the limit! What the heck is this double talk? He's
        basically saying a spiritual seeker will never be finished--and
        impossible to manifest one's spiritual destiny. This sounds
        discouraging doesn't it? So what is it that eckankar, under the
        leadership of HK, promises the chela? It sounds like nothing to me!
        But eckists believe that their imaginations lead to greater
        realities when in truth their imaginations lead to greater
        illusions! These delusions become the norm when looking at and
        living in what is perceived as the "here and now," but are actually
        past conceptualizations cemented into their present reality of
        accepted and established Eckankar dogma. : )

        By the way what is the eck worship service (EWS) all about?--What or
        Who is being worshipped at these services created by HK via his
        Lutheran training? Why are eckists worshipping? Or is the EWS just
        for newcomers to feel comfortable with eck worship? But isn't it
        stated somewhere in the Shariyat that the Mahanta is to be
        worshipped right along with the Sugmad? Yet HK will tell chelas not
        to worship him and he is therefore contradicting the Shariyat. Isn't
        this confusing to the chelas? However, it is a great techinique to
        keep the chelas second guessing, off balance and confused! Eckists
        will then create eckankar in their own individual minds, and thus,
        there is no responsibility for the mahanta. All eckists have to do
        is conform, even though in traditional religions they were seen as
        untraditional, eccentric and rebellious. But being told they
        are "special" these seekers of truth, rebels of sorts, aptly conform
        to the eckankar dogma. They believe that the initiations are valid
        yardsticks proving their spiritual dreams and insights--it makes
        them feel so good! In truth they see themselves! However the non-
        conformist individuals, if they buy into the eck teachings, become
        very conforming to dogma and "guidelines" and loses their
        individuality and freedom of thought. The EWS is nothing more than a
        means of exposing themselves to more eck dogma and brainwashing
        while going through old familiar church-like activities. The
        singing, for the most part, was pretty awful, too! LOL!

        The bottom line is that Eckankar under the leadership of the
        great "master" HK is selling a belief system that is free from any
        responsibility for its words, actions, deeds and promises--Eckankar
        takes no responsibility in what it is teaching. In the meantime, the
        trusting eckists are continually trying to maintain their balance by
        walking a narrow line along the berm of the board road that leads to
        God Realization. In this quest, falling for the false eck teachings
        has made their journey all the more difficult, rather than it being
        the most direct and easy way!

        Mish


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi All,
        > Klemp avoids answering all of the questions posed to him
        > in "Questions for the Master." I'll number each question asked by
        > this young Eckist.
        >
        > [Q]: (1)"Is there a difference between being a Co-worker with God,
        > an ECK Master, and a God-Realized person? (2) Is one more evolved
        > than the others, (3) and can you be one without being the others?
        > (4) If, throughout many lifetimes, Soul unfolds spiritually, how
        can
        > It manifest Its ultimate spiritual destiny within one lifetime?
        (5)
        > How does this work? (6) What's the spiritual finish line in the
        > physical?" --Anke Johannsen, age 24 Freiburg, Germany
        >
        > Me: Actually the first question could have three different answers
        > or just one answer! The correct answer would be NO! This is
        because
        > Eckankar's definition for a God-Realizeded person is very narrow
        > (one has to be an Eckist) and the Co-worker and Eck Master
        concepts
        > are just more cult fiction! But let's see what Little Harry has to
        > say.
        >
        > HK: "Dear Anke, Yes, there is a difference. Up through the Eighth
        > Initiation, an ECK initiate is a Co-worker with the Mahanta."
        >
        > Me: WRONG! Actually, Klemp created the dogma of the Co-worker with
        > the Mahanta versus Co-worker with God or Sugmad. Just look at any
        > Eckankar Dictionary by Twitchell (not the Lexicon) and look up Co-
        > worker. Co-worker with God is the only "Co-worker" definition
        > listed. The Shariyat does not mention Co-worker with the Mahanta,
        > but states that the Nineth "has suffered, sacrificed, and
        > surrendered himself to the ways of the ECK, UNDER [my caps] the
        > Mahanta, the Living ECK Master."
        >
        > Therefore: (1) Co-worker with the Mahanta was created by Klemp;
        (2)
        > There is still a connection with the Mahanta for the Ninth
        Initiate
        > and Not as a Co-worker with God; (3) The Shariyat states that the
        > Ninth is "under" the LEM/Mahanta and Not a Co-worker!
        >
        > HK: "The Ninth, Tenth, and even higher initiates, including those
        > who enter the very heart of God, are all Co-workers with God."
        >
        > Me: But, the Ninth is Not an ECK Master or God-Realized! The Tenth
        > is the ECK Master an is God-Realized... supposedly, and according
        to
        > Twitchell's fabrications. Then again, these are just a few of the
        > questions Klemp never addresses!
        >
        > HK: "The Eleventh Initiate, the Kevalshar, stands at the entrance
        > into the SUGMAD world. He faces more tests before he may gain full
        > entrance."
        >
        > Me: So where does this leave the Tenth if an Eleventh can't gain
        > full entrance? We know that Klemp has some Ninths walking
        around...
        > but the Law of Silence keeps most from knowing who they are.
        > However, the Eighths have been told of their existence, and can
        make
        > some educated guesses as to who some might be... like Joan.
        Anyhow,
        > this is just another carrot being dangled to the Eck youth to make
        > them into Klemp's drones to serve, sacrifice and surrender all to
        > him... the LEM/Mahanta.
        >
        > HK: "Soul can manifest Its ultimate spiritual destiny by doing
        > everything in the name of the Mahanta."
        >
        > Me: Yes, more brainwashing by using self-hypnotic suggestion.
        >
        > HK: "The Ninth, Tenth, and Eleventh Initiate does everything as a
        Co-
        > worker with God. The Mahanta, however, accompanies It and offers
        > help when needed."
        >
        > Me: It seems that even the Eckist who believes they are higher on
        > the Inner is still Not free! When does real spiritual freedom
        occur
        > for an Eckist?! I know! When they become the LEM/Mahanta! How many
        > lifetimes will that take? Take a number and get in line... and No
        > dishing people! Are you Eckists out there now beginning to see how
        > this scam works?
        >
        > HK: "The Mahanta's work with It is done when It becomes an
        Initiate
        > of the Twelfth Circle."
        >
        > Me: So, who is this "It?" Oh, I guess this "It" is Soul! So, like
        I
        > said... take a number and get in line! Eventually, after years and
        > years you will come to a point where those observing you will
        > think... My, what patience that H.I. has! But, they confuse
        patience
        > with Not giving a shit anymore don't they! LOL!
        >
        > HK: "So, Anke, there's no spiritual finish line in the physical.
        The
        > shy's the limit."
        >
        > Me: Once more Klemp distorts the truth! He just said prior to this
        > that the "Mahanta's work with It (Soul) is done when It (Soul)
        > becomes an Initiate of the Twelfth Circle" so this is the
        spiritual
        > finish line in the physical!
        >
        > I'm really didappointed that Klemp just doesn't make much of an
        > effort at answering questions. But, he's got it made in the shade
        so
        > why bother! He could just say nonsense, or more nonsense, and
        > Eckists would read into it whatever they want. There is no
        critical
        > thinking in Eckankar. It is interesting, though, that the Shariyat
        > states this about the Ninth Initiate: "Of course, he cannot
        > understand what this means at the stage of development in entering
        > into the Ninth Circle, but it isn't long before his intellectual
        > senses grasp the full significance of it." Isn't the intellect a
        > Fourth or Mental Plane (and lower) faculty? This is the Ninth
        Plane!
        > So how does "intellect" come into play? Probably because the Eck
        > Initiations are just made up and fictional! It is just a control
        > method that appeals to ones ego and gives the seeker a false sense
        > of hope. It's really sad how Klemp plays mind games with the Eck
        > Youth in hopes of creating more Eck-Borg drones. Klemp's Karma
        will
        > eventually catch up to him and his cohorts. That should be
        > interesting!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Mish, I agree that Klemp keeps Eckists confused and off balance through intentional manipulations, but also due to his own spiritual ignorance, arrogance,
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 15, 2005
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          Hi Mish,

          I agree that Klemp keeps Eckists confused and off balance through
          intentional manipulations, but also due to his own spiritual
          ignorance, arrogance, and delusion. Eckists are easier to manipulate
          when they rationalize by imagining that the confusion and
          contradictions they see and hear are spiritual paradoxes!

          The road to God-Realization is broader than Eckankar would have one
          believe. And, Eckankar is not a "direct" path, but never has
          been, (let alone the "most" direct path) nor is it "the easy way"
          for Eckists any longer.

          Worship of the Mahanta is listed in the Shariyat in Book 2, Ch. 10,
          on page 435 of Books 1&2.

          "He should understand that the worship of the Mahanta implies the
          worship of the ECK, the worship of the Sugmad. . . Tindor Saki
          said, 'Within the Mahanta is the true temple of the Sugmad, and he
          who seeks to bow to the divine Reality should bow before him."

          On page 436 is this quote, "The human form of the Mahanta, the
          Living ECK Master is only an outward manifestation. His real form is
          one with that of Sugmad, as he always enjoys the bliss of the divine
          reality."

          And on page 437 is this, "The same is true for the chela who may
          worship the Mahanta but has no real love for him. So long as there
          is no love for the ECK, there can be no spiritual unfoldment."

          Twitchell created the Mahanta fraud to make himself Top Dog over all
          others and Klemp continues it by using only the words of Twitchell
          that are most beneficial for him. This is why some of Twitchell's
          books remain, but edited, while others are either destroyed,
          discontinued, or are discouraged from discussion. And, Klemp's lack
          of real spiritual consciousness is also why he is incapable of
          writing a Shariyat 3 or 4!

          Prometheus



          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
          <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:

          Harold really exphasizes the co-worker with mahanta concept which is
          not a part of the question, but he does expound on it and well
          defines that the youth and older initiates are expected to work
          their butts off to help Harold keep his power over all chelas. He
          finishes by saying that there is no finish line in the physical but
          the sky's the limit! What the heck is this double talk? He's
          basically saying a spiritual seeker will never be finished--and
          impossible to manifest one's spiritual destiny. This sounds
          discouraging doesn't it? So what is it that eckankar, under the
          leadership of HK, promises the chela? It sounds like nothing to me!
          But eckists believe that their imaginations lead to greater
          realities when in truth their imaginations lead to greater
          illusions! These delusions become the norm when looking at and
          living in what is perceived as the "here and now," but are actually
          past conceptualizations cemented into their present reality of
          accepted and established Eckankar dogma. : )

          By the way what is the eck worship service (EWS) all about?--What or
          Who is being worshipped at these services created by HK via his
          Lutheran training? Why are eckists worshipping? Or is the EWS just
          for newcomers to feel comfortable with eck worship? But isn't it
          stated somewhere in the Shariyat that the Mahanta is to be
          worshipped right along with the Sugmad? Yet HK will tell chelas not
          to worship him and he is therefore contradicting the Shariyat. Isn't
          this confusing to the chelas? However, it is a great techinique to
          keep the chelas second guessing, off balance and confused! Eckists
          will then create eckankar in their own individual minds, and thus,
          there is no responsibility for the mahanta. All eckists have to do
          is conform, even though in traditional religions they were seen as
          untraditional, eccentric and rebellious. But being told they
          are "special" these seekers of truth, rebels of sorts, aptly conform
          to the eckankar dogma. They believe that the initiations are valid
          yardsticks proving their spiritual dreams and insights--it makes
          them feel so good! In truth they see themselves! However the non-
          conformist individuals, if they buy into the eck teachings, become
          very conforming to dogma and "guidelines" and loses their
          individuality and freedom of thought. The EWS is nothing more than a
          means of exposing themselves to more eck dogma and brainwashing
          while going through old familiar church-like activities. The
          singing, for the most part, was pretty awful, too! LOL!

          The bottom line is that Eckankar under the leadership of the
          great "master" HK is selling a belief system that is free from any
          responsibility for its words, actions, deeds and promises--Eckankar
          takes no responsibility in what it is teaching. In the meantime, the
          trusting eckists are continually trying to maintain their balance by
          walking a narrow line along the berm of the board road that leads to
          God Realization. In this quest, falling for the false eck teachings
          has made their journey all the more difficult, rather than it being
          the most direct and easy way!

          Mish
        • l2eigh
          Hi Mish: Absolutely. All those terms - outer master, living (eck) master, inner master, mahanta, mahanta, the living eck master are just renamed parts of
          Message 4 of 4 , Nov 15, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Mish:
            Absolutely. All those terms - "outer master, living (eck)
            master, inner master, mahanta, mahanta, the living eck master" are
            just renamed parts of your own mind (mine, anyone's). The outer mind,
            body mind, inner mind, deeper mind, and attention, all within the
            field of your overall mind (general perception) ("sugmad, itself, the
            living reality).
            Incidentally, do you have a sense of humor, self confidence,
            an open mind? Congratulations. You're omnipotent, omniscient, and
            omnipresent. Because that's all they are.

            Leigh

            -- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
            <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Harold really exphasizes the co-worker with mahanta concept which
            is
            > not a part of the question, but he does expound on it and well
            > defines that the youth and older initiates are expected to work
            > their butts off to help Harold keep his power over all chelas. He
            > finishes by saying that there is no finish line in the physical but
            > the sky's the limit! What the heck is this double talk? He's
            > basically saying a spiritual seeker will never be finished--and
            > impossible to manifest one's spiritual destiny. This sounds
            > discouraging doesn't it? So what is it that eckankar, under the
            > leadership of HK, promises the chela? It sounds like nothing to me!
            > But eckists believe that their imaginations lead to greater
            > realities when in truth their imaginations lead to greater
            > illusions! These delusions become the norm when looking at and
            > living in what is perceived as the "here and now," but are actually
            > past conceptualizations cemented into their present reality of
            > accepted and established Eckankar dogma. : )
            >
            > By the way what is the eck worship service (EWS) all about?--What
            or
            > Who is being worshipped at these services created by HK via his
            > Lutheran training? Why are eckists worshipping? Or is the EWS just
            > for newcomers to feel comfortable with eck worship? But isn't it
            > stated somewhere in the Shariyat that the Mahanta is to be
            > worshipped right along with the Sugmad? Yet HK will tell chelas not
            > to worship him and he is therefore contradicting the Shariyat.
            Isn't
            > this confusing to the chelas? However, it is a great techinique to
            > keep the chelas second guessing, off balance and confused! Eckists
            > will then create eckankar in their own individual minds, and thus,
            > there is no responsibility for the mahanta. All eckists have to do
            > is conform, even though in traditional religions they were seen as
            > untraditional, eccentric and rebellious. But being told they
            > are "special" these seekers of truth, rebels of sorts, aptly
            conform
            > to the eckankar dogma. They believe that the initiations are valid
            > yardsticks proving their spiritual dreams and insights--it makes
            > them feel so good! In truth they see themselves! However the non-
            > conformist individuals, if they buy into the eck teachings, become
            > very conforming to dogma and "guidelines" and loses their
            > individuality and freedom of thought. The EWS is nothing more than
            a
            > means of exposing themselves to more eck dogma and brainwashing
            > while going through old familiar church-like activities. The
            > singing, for the most part, was pretty awful, too! LOL!
            >
            > The bottom line is that Eckankar under the leadership of the
            > great "master" HK is selling a belief system that is free from any
            > responsibility for its words, actions, deeds and promises--Eckankar
            > takes no responsibility in what it is teaching. In the meantime,
            the
            > trusting eckists are continually trying to maintain their balance
            by
            > walking a narrow line along the berm of the board road that leads
            to
            > God Realization. In this quest, falling for the false eck teachings
            > has made their journey all the more difficult, rather than it being
            > the most direct and easy way!
            >
            > Mish
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