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Re: Klemp's Motto on Love

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  • mishmisha9
    Hi, Freefrom, Prometheus & All! I don t really remember reading Harri saying, Love means never having to say you re sorry, but, hey, perhaps, he has--he s no
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 1, 2005
      Hi, Freefrom, Prometheus & All!

      I don't really remember reading Harri saying, "Love means never
      having to say you're sorry," but, hey, perhaps, he has--he's no more
      original than PT! LOL!

      It is interesting,indeed, the comments or lack of comments that HK
      has made concerning love--"You never really know your spouse. Love
      is for relationships. Otherwise you don't need it much." What about
      Divine Love?

      Then HK goes on: "Relationships between people and between people
      and animals. Ancient beings who care for each other a lot. Many
      people belittle affections people have for their pets. But that
      doesn't fly for those who understand." Such ramblings! : ) The thing
      is most of us, IMO, have had or presently have relationships with
      animals, and so news to HK, I don't think that "many people
      belittle" people with pets. Just read the stories about the rescuing
      of stranded pets in the aftermath of the destruction from the recent
      hurricanes along the Gulf Coast? There were many reports about that.
      Also, specific animal rescue groups help coordinate efforts to save
      those animals and re-unite them with their owners. Donations were
      sent to animal orgs. for that specific usage--so, frankly, I don't
      know why HK would think that many people do not understand the
      relationship that people have with animals. This is delusional
      thinking really.

      Well, anyway, reading these remarks that Harold made in his seminar
      talk had me reflecting back on his autobiography stories, and I
      realized what was missing! LOVE! Think about it! Do any of you
      recall HK talking about the love he has for family and friends? I
      don't remember any of his stories revealing that. But what I do
      remember is the anger he expresses in having to deal with people,
      and of course, all of his criticisms of others. Lots of negativity
      really--so how did HK ever become a happy human being? Well, my
      guess is that he hasn't!

      One of the reasons he says "You never really know your spouse" would
      be that he does not understand human relationships. He didn't know
      how to take jokes when he was young and harbored resentment--i.e.
      against an older farmer who was having fun with a group of farmers
      including little Harry. Little Harry was too young to understand the
      joke, so he has held on to the anger he felt about the joking
      centered around him. He didn't know to lighten up then and he still
      doesn't know to lighten up! Yes, as an adult, he still accuses this
      old farmer of doing something nasty to him and HK is still mad--
      sounds like arrested development at a very young age. A good
      therapist could have fun with this one. But the thing is HK shares
      in his autobio negative personal experiences--oh, poor, Harry, how
      difficult his childhood must have been, but heck look where all this
      martyrdom has gotten him! He's the delusional leader of a religious
      cult! : ) Isn't that special?

      I tried to recall anything that he wrote about being loved or in
      love or wanting to love in his autobiographies. I don't remember him
      sharing any stories in which he expressed how much he loved his
      parents, for instance. But I do remember that chapter where he
      references a biblical passage about letting the dead bury the dead.
      HK did not go home for his father's funeral. Not only did he not
      feel the need for himself to honor and respect his father, he
      demonstrated a lack of compassion and love by not being present to
      comfort and console his grieving mother and siblings. Interesting
      that he felt no need to go home.

      I think HK feels more comfortable with relationships with animals
      because animals can be controlled easier, animals do not disagree
      with you or point out your flaws, and animals are faithful
      regardless of your short-comings! Just so much easier to deal with
      animals than humans. Animal needs are not so demanding and also
      animals can be more easily replaced. People, on the other hand, are
      more difficult to understand, are not easily controlled (unless
      under the influence of some power, like a cult), have the ability to
      use critical thinking, there-by, can see through lies and
      deceptions, and people will shift loyalty when they smell something
      rotten in Denmark! : ) Animals just don't have the consciousness to
      be held to higher standards.

      So, can anyone really recall any personal stories that HK has shared
      about himself in which he demonstrates love or having been loved? He
      talks about love, but it seems he does not at all know what it is,
      and that is why he underplays the importance of human love in his
      talks and tries to make people feel guilty if they feel love too
      strongly towards others, especially those close to them. How is it
      regarded in Eckankar? Oh, yes, it is a lower consciousness--human
      love, and "you don't need it much." Yes, he does say love is for
      relationships--but he doesn't really define relationships, does he?
      Truly difficult for him, I guess.

      HK smiles out at his audiences but not because of the love he feels
      for them (he does not understand love); rather, HK smiles because he
      has his chelas right where he wants them--under his thumb! If HK
      loves anything, it's the power he has over others!

      Mish


      ********************************

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
      <eckchains@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Love means never having to say you're sorry.
      > ;) Harri
      >
      > Happy Halloween!
      >
      > Freefrom
      >
      >

      *******************************
      > --- In
      EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
      > >Hi All,
      > >
      The 2005 Eckankar World Wide Seminar (5EWWS) gave the LEM/Mahanta
      (Harold Klemp) another opportunity to stick his foot in his mouth.
      And, once again, HK didn't disappoint us!
      > >
      > > The following Klemp quote was taken from HU-Chat,
      an "unofficial" Eckankar Yahoo Group Site and was posted by a Peter
      Anton (message 50809). According to Peter, who took notes, this is
      from Klemp's evening talk on Saturday, October 29, 2005, 8:29 pm.
      > >
      "You never really know your spouse. Love is for relationships.
      Otherwise you don't need it much. Relationships between people and
      between people and animals. Ancient beings who care for each other a
      lot. Many people belittle affections people have for their pets. But
      that doesn't fly for those who understand."
      > >
      > > I find the comment "You never really know your spouse" to be
      rather shallow and sad. If one's mate is their Soul Mate, or if they
      are Twin Souls (both concepts are disavowed by Eckankar) then one
      does come to "really know" their spouse. Thereby is a Love
      experienced that takes one beyond normal limits of expectation and
      understanding. It is somewhat of a rarity for two to find each
      other, but it does happen when one is receptive to the guidance and
      flow of SPIRIT. However, one has to be open and receptive to all
      possibilities when working with the flow of SPIRIT. Unfortunately,
      for Klemp, he does not recognize this factor and, therefore, passes
      his ignorance on to those who follow his words.
      > >
      > > I also find Klemp's comments about love, "you don't need it
      much" to be of great concern for Eckists. Except for relationships,
      with people and animals, why don't you need love... much?
      > >
      > > Here's some quotes from Klemp that contradict what he has just
      stated. "love. Feeling that imparts vitality to thought; feeling is
      desire and desire is love; the adhesive force that holds everything
      together; the doctrine of universal unity; the oneness of the
      SUGMAD; a dichotomy whose opposite is hate in the lower worlds; the
      ECK; the universal law of laws; the divine essence which unites all
      reality and brings together all SOULS; the bond which holds the
      worlds together." (pgs. 126-127, Eckankar Lexicon) "Love, Law of.
      > > The principle which gives THOUGHT the dynamic power to correlate
      with its object and, therefore, to master every adverse human
      experience; feeling that imparts vitality to thought; feeling is
      DESIRE, and desire is LOVE." (pg. 127)
      > >
      > > The problem with Klemp contradicting himself is because these
      Eckankar Lexicon quotes are Not really Klemp's! Klemp took these
      from the Eckankar Dictionary by Paul Twitchell and Twitchell took
      these definitions from other sources. Therefore, it is no wonder
      that Klemp does Not remember, much less understand, the words and
      concepts that he claims to have written in the Lexicon. Even the
      Shariyats contain concepts that Klemp only mimics due to his lack of
      higher consciousness! <sigh>
      > >
      > > I almost feel sorry for "Big Harry" except for his arrogance and
      his cruelty to those he continues to mislead.
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      > >
      >
    • christel_heine2003
      ... hallo, Prometheus, where in Eckankar works is written, that God and Allah are only as Fourth Initiate s ? is t in Eckankar Lexicon too? thank you christel
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 2, 2005
        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        hallo, Prometheus,
        where in Eckankar works is written, that "God and Allah are only as
        Fourth Initiate's"?
        is't in Eckankar Lexicon too?
        thank you christel


        <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Liz,
        > Eckankar sees God and Allah (at best) as 4th Plane dieties! Both
        God
        > and Allah are on the same level of consciousness as is a Fourth
        > Initiate in Eckankar! Therefore, Darrell Johnson's comments about
        > Klemp seeing himself as the "Son of God" is rather understated.
        > Klemp uses "common language" as a means to decieve the public. When
        > Klemp uses the term "God" he is actually referring to SUGMAD. And
        > Klemp defines the Mahanta as being the incarnation of SUGMAD
        > (pg.130, Eckankar Lexicon). In Eckankar the Higher Initiations
        begin
        > with the Fifth Plane Initiations. An Eckist with the Fifth
        > Initiation is Higher than God and Allah! Therefore Jesus and
        > Mohammed (and all others) are seen as even lower in consciousness
        > than those Eckists on the Fourth Plane! Yet, Klemp even quotes from
        > the Christian Bible to further decieve the public of the real dogma
        > and beliefs of Eckankar. If any Eckist would deny this they are
        > either a newer Eckist, don't read much or lack awareness, or they
        > are lying!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > Elizabeth wrote:
        >
        > Prometheus wrote:
        >
        > The following Klemp quote was taken from HU-Chat, an "unofficial"
        > Eckankar Yahoo Group Site
        >
        > <snipped>
        >
        > Harold's quote:
        > "You never really know your spouse. Love is for relationships.
        > Otherwise you don't need it much. Relationships between people and
        > between people and animals.
        >
        > <snipped>
        >
        > *** My comments:
        > While reading from a.r.e. this morning I came across a recent
        repost
        > by leaf. I snipped a paragraph below that stood out for me.
        >
        > I find it interesting that Harold spoke at the recent WW; "You
        never
        > really know your spouse. Love is for relationships. Otherwise you
        > don't need it much." I wonder if Harold has read the below repost,
        > which was originally posted by Darrell Johnson, Ford Johnson's
        > brother on April 22nd 2004 titled "Eckankar Spiritual Leader Claims
        > Title of Son of God" located at
        >
        > http://environment.news.prweb.com/releases/2004/4/prweb120175.htm
        >
        >
        >
        > Does Eckankar Still Work For The Eckist?
        >
        > <snipped>
        >
        > Do you know the truth about that religion or path?
        >
        > Much like a personal relationship filled with love and devotion,
        > it "works" for both partners when it is based on trust 3/4 truth
        3/4
        > and love. However, if one partner is unfaithful or has been
        > dishonest about fundamental issues, a relationship that may appear
        > to pass all the tests cannot do so without fundamental compromises
        > once the deception, the lies and the dishonesty is finally
        revealed.
        > So, the questions that comprise this test presuppose that an
        > affirmative response is based on knowing the real history of the
        > religion and what it represents.
        >
        >
        > *** So Harold's comment seems clear now.... Create that question
        > of doubt and suspicion in the members minds about their loved one,
        > in turn create a stronger reliance on the LEM / Mahanta. You can
        > only trust the Mahanta..... so I wonder how many fanatical eckies
        > went home with this quote playing over and over in their minds?
        > Returning home they have been implanted with another brainwashing
        > techneque, complete love and reliance on that Mythical God Man....
        >
        > Love is for relationships, otherwise you don't need it ["LOVE"]
        > much? Seems BIG Harry has been the unfaithful one in his
        > relationships.... and who really needs him? ;-) NOT ME
        >
        > Liz
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Christel, Well, God and Allah are seen as Fourth Plane dieties by Eckankar, therefore, they would be the equivalent to 4th Initiates. The Christian God
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 2, 2005
          Hello Christel,

          Well, God and Allah are seen as Fourth Plane dieties by Eckankar,
          therefore, they would be the equivalent to 4th Initiates. The
          Christian God and the Moslem God (Allah) and others are seen by
          Eckankar as residing on the 4th or Mental Plane. The prophets and
          saviors of these world religions are usually seen as residing on
          even lower planes of consciousness. Also, any religion that is
          emotional (Astral) is seen as a 2nd Plane religion by Eckankar.

          The Mahanta is at least a 14th Plane diety and is the incarnation of
          the SUGMAD (Eckankar Lexicon). The SUGMAD ("God" of Eckankar)
          resides on a Plane of consciousness way beyond the 14th, but I'm not
          sure where this is stated in the Eck works. Anyway, this means that
          the Mahanta (14th Plane) is 10 times greater than Allah or the
          Christian God (4th Plane) or of any God of other world religions!
          And, the SUGMAD is even greater!

          I did find a quote, but you may need to look in the Shariyat to find
          a more complete explanation. The following quote is from a 1983
          printing of "The Spiritual Notebook" by Paul Twitchell (Ch.3, pg.37).

          "On closer examination, the fourth plane appears to be the heaven
          for all religions. The followers of Judaism, Islamism, Buddhism,
          Taoism, Bahaiism, Jainism, Shintoism, Sikkhism, and Mithraism, to
          name but a few, adopt this plane of existence after quitting their
          physical bodies."

          Prometheus


          Christel-Heine wrote:

          hallo, Prometheus,
          where in Eckankar works is written, that "God and Allah are only as
          Fourth Initiate's"? is't in Eckankar Lexicon too?

          thank you christel


          > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Liz,
          > > Eckankar sees God and Allah (at best) as 4th Plane dieties!
          Both
          > God
          > > and Allah are on the same level of consciousness as is a Fourth
          > > Initiate in Eckankar! Therefore, Darrell Johnson's comments
          about
          > > Klemp seeing himself as the "Son of God" is rather understated.
          > > Klemp uses "common language" as a means to decieve the public.
          When
          > > Klemp uses the term "God" he is actually referring to SUGMAD.
          And
          > > Klemp defines the Mahanta as being the incarnation of SUGMAD
          > > (pg.130, Eckankar Lexicon). In Eckankar the Higher Initiations
          > begin
          > > with the Fifth Plane Initiations. An Eckist with the Fifth
          > > Initiation is Higher than God and Allah! Therefore Jesus and
          > > Mohammed (and all others) are seen as even lower in
          consciousness
          > > than those Eckists on the Fourth Plane! Yet, Klemp even quotes
          from
          > > the Christian Bible to further decieve the public of the real
          dogma
          > > and beliefs of Eckankar. If any Eckist would deny this they are
          > > either a newer Eckist, don't read much or lack awareness, or
          they
          > > are lying!
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > > Elizabeth wrote:
          > >
          > > Prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > The following Klemp quote was taken from HU-Chat,
          an "unofficial"
          > > Eckankar Yahoo Group Site
          > >
          > > <snipped>
          > >
          > > Harold's quote:
          > > "You never really know your spouse. Love is for relationships.
          > > Otherwise you don't need it much. Relationships between people
          and
          > > between people and animals.
          > >
          > > <snipped>
          > >
          > > *** My comments:
          > > While reading from a.r.e. this morning I came across a recent
          > repost
          > > by leaf. I snipped a paragraph below that stood out for me.
          > >
          > > I find it interesting that Harold spoke at the recent WW; "You
          > never
          > > really know your spouse. Love is for relationships. Otherwise
          you
          > > don't need it much." I wonder if Harold has read the below
          repost,
          > > which was originally posted by Darrell Johnson, Ford Johnson's
          > > brother on April 22nd 2004 titled "Eckankar Spiritual Leader
          Claims
          > > Title of Son of God" located at
          > >
          > > http://environment.news.prweb.com/releases/2004/4/prweb120175.htm
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Does Eckankar Still Work For The Eckist?
          > >
          > > <snipped>
          > >
          > > Do you know the truth about that religion or path?
          > >
          > > Much like a personal relationship filled with love and devotion,
          > > it "works" for both partners when it is based on trust 3/4 truth
          > 3/4
          > > and love. However, if one partner is unfaithful or has been
          > > dishonest about fundamental issues, a relationship that may
          appear
          > > to pass all the tests cannot do so without fundamental
          compromises
          > > once the deception, the lies and the dishonesty is finally
          > revealed.
          > > So, the questions that comprise this test presuppose that an
          > > affirmative response is based on knowing the real history of the
          > > religion and what it represents.
          > >
          > >
          > > *** So Harold's comment seems clear now.... Create that
          question
          > > of doubt and suspicion in the members minds about their loved
          one,
          > > in turn create a stronger reliance on the LEM / Mahanta. You
          can
          > > only trust the Mahanta..... so I wonder how many fanatical
          eckies
          > > went home with this quote playing over and over in their minds?
          > > Returning home they have been implanted with another
          brainwashing
          > > techneque, complete love and reliance on that Mythical God
          Man....
          > >
          > > Love is for relationships, otherwise you don't need it ["LOVE"]
          > > much? Seems BIG Harry has been the unfaithful one in his
          > > relationships.... and who really needs him? ;-) NOT ME
          > >
          > > Liz
          > >
          >
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