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Re: Klemp states: Love, except for relationships, is not needed much

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  • prometheus_973
    Hi Liz, Eckankar sees God and Allah (at best) as 4th Plane dieties! Both God and Allah are on the same level of consciousness as is a Fourth Initiate in
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 1, 2005
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      Hi Liz,

      Eckankar sees God and Allah (at best) as 4th Plane dieties! Both God
      and Allah are on the same level of consciousness as is a Fourth
      Initiate in Eckankar! Therefore, Darrell Johnson's comments about
      Klemp seeing himself as the "Son of God" is rather understated.
      Klemp uses "common language" as a means to decieve the public. When
      Klemp uses the term "God" he is actually referring to SUGMAD. And
      Klemp defines the Mahanta as being the incarnation of SUGMAD
      (pg.130, Eckankar Lexicon). In Eckankar the Higher Initiations begin
      with the Fifth Plane Initiations. An Eckist with the Fifth
      Initiation is Higher than God and Allah! Therefore Jesus and
      Mohammed (and all others) are seen as even lower in consciousness
      than those Eckists on the Fourth Plane! Yet, Klemp even quotes from
      the Christian Bible to further decieve the public of the real dogma
      and beliefs of Eckankar. If any Eckist would deny this they are
      either a newer Eckist, don't read much or lack awareness, or they
      are lying!

      Prometheus


      Elizabeth wrote:

      Prometheus wrote:

      The following Klemp quote was taken from HU-Chat, an "unofficial"
      Eckankar Yahoo Group Site

      <snipped>

      Harold's quote:
      "You never really know your spouse. Love is for relationships.
      Otherwise you don't need it much. Relationships between people and
      between people and animals.

      <snipped>

      *** My comments:
      While reading from a.r.e. this morning I came across a recent repost
      by leaf. I snipped a paragraph below that stood out for me.

      I find it interesting that Harold spoke at the recent WW; "You never
      really know your spouse. Love is for relationships. Otherwise you
      don't need it much." I wonder if Harold has read the below repost,
      which was originally posted by Darrell Johnson, Ford Johnson's
      brother on April 22nd 2004 titled "Eckankar Spiritual Leader Claims
      Title of Son of God" located at

      http://environment.news.prweb.com/releases/2004/4/prweb120175.htm



      Does Eckankar Still Work For The Eckist?

      <snipped>

      Do you know the truth about that religion or path?

      Much like a personal relationship filled with love and devotion,
      it "works" for both partners when it is based on trust 3/4 truth 3/4
      and love. However, if one partner is unfaithful or has been
      dishonest about fundamental issues, a relationship that may appear
      to pass all the tests cannot do so without fundamental compromises
      once the deception, the lies and the dishonesty is finally revealed.
      So, the questions that comprise this test presuppose that an
      affirmative response is based on knowing the real history of the
      religion and what it represents.


      *** So Harold's comment seems clear now.... Create that question
      of doubt and suspicion in the members minds about their loved one,
      in turn create a stronger reliance on the LEM / Mahanta. You can
      only trust the Mahanta..... so I wonder how many fanatical eckies
      went home with this quote playing over and over in their minds?
      Returning home they have been implanted with another brainwashing
      techneque, complete love and reliance on that Mythical God Man....

      Love is for relationships, otherwise you don't need it ["LOVE"]
      much? Seems BIG Harry has been the unfaithful one in his
      relationships.... and who really needs him? ;-) NOT ME

      Liz
    • mishmisha9
      Hi, Freefrom, Prometheus & All! I don t really remember reading Harri saying, Love means never having to say you re sorry, but, hey, perhaps, he has--he s no
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 1, 2005
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        Hi, Freefrom, Prometheus & All!

        I don't really remember reading Harri saying, "Love means never
        having to say you're sorry," but, hey, perhaps, he has--he's no more
        original than PT! LOL!

        It is interesting,indeed, the comments or lack of comments that HK
        has made concerning love--"You never really know your spouse. Love
        is for relationships. Otherwise you don't need it much." What about
        Divine Love?

        Then HK goes on: "Relationships between people and between people
        and animals. Ancient beings who care for each other a lot. Many
        people belittle affections people have for their pets. But that
        doesn't fly for those who understand." Such ramblings! : ) The thing
        is most of us, IMO, have had or presently have relationships with
        animals, and so news to HK, I don't think that "many people
        belittle" people with pets. Just read the stories about the rescuing
        of stranded pets in the aftermath of the destruction from the recent
        hurricanes along the Gulf Coast? There were many reports about that.
        Also, specific animal rescue groups help coordinate efforts to save
        those animals and re-unite them with their owners. Donations were
        sent to animal orgs. for that specific usage--so, frankly, I don't
        know why HK would think that many people do not understand the
        relationship that people have with animals. This is delusional
        thinking really.

        Well, anyway, reading these remarks that Harold made in his seminar
        talk had me reflecting back on his autobiography stories, and I
        realized what was missing! LOVE! Think about it! Do any of you
        recall HK talking about the love he has for family and friends? I
        don't remember any of his stories revealing that. But what I do
        remember is the anger he expresses in having to deal with people,
        and of course, all of his criticisms of others. Lots of negativity
        really--so how did HK ever become a happy human being? Well, my
        guess is that he hasn't!

        One of the reasons he says "You never really know your spouse" would
        be that he does not understand human relationships. He didn't know
        how to take jokes when he was young and harbored resentment--i.e.
        against an older farmer who was having fun with a group of farmers
        including little Harry. Little Harry was too young to understand the
        joke, so he has held on to the anger he felt about the joking
        centered around him. He didn't know to lighten up then and he still
        doesn't know to lighten up! Yes, as an adult, he still accuses this
        old farmer of doing something nasty to him and HK is still mad--
        sounds like arrested development at a very young age. A good
        therapist could have fun with this one. But the thing is HK shares
        in his autobio negative personal experiences--oh, poor, Harry, how
        difficult his childhood must have been, but heck look where all this
        martyrdom has gotten him! He's the delusional leader of a religious
        cult! : ) Isn't that special?

        I tried to recall anything that he wrote about being loved or in
        love or wanting to love in his autobiographies. I don't remember him
        sharing any stories in which he expressed how much he loved his
        parents, for instance. But I do remember that chapter where he
        references a biblical passage about letting the dead bury the dead.
        HK did not go home for his father's funeral. Not only did he not
        feel the need for himself to honor and respect his father, he
        demonstrated a lack of compassion and love by not being present to
        comfort and console his grieving mother and siblings. Interesting
        that he felt no need to go home.

        I think HK feels more comfortable with relationships with animals
        because animals can be controlled easier, animals do not disagree
        with you or point out your flaws, and animals are faithful
        regardless of your short-comings! Just so much easier to deal with
        animals than humans. Animal needs are not so demanding and also
        animals can be more easily replaced. People, on the other hand, are
        more difficult to understand, are not easily controlled (unless
        under the influence of some power, like a cult), have the ability to
        use critical thinking, there-by, can see through lies and
        deceptions, and people will shift loyalty when they smell something
        rotten in Denmark! : ) Animals just don't have the consciousness to
        be held to higher standards.

        So, can anyone really recall any personal stories that HK has shared
        about himself in which he demonstrates love or having been loved? He
        talks about love, but it seems he does not at all know what it is,
        and that is why he underplays the importance of human love in his
        talks and tries to make people feel guilty if they feel love too
        strongly towards others, especially those close to them. How is it
        regarded in Eckankar? Oh, yes, it is a lower consciousness--human
        love, and "you don't need it much." Yes, he does say love is for
        relationships--but he doesn't really define relationships, does he?
        Truly difficult for him, I guess.

        HK smiles out at his audiences but not because of the love he feels
        for them (he does not understand love); rather, HK smiles because he
        has his chelas right where he wants them--under his thumb! If HK
        loves anything, it's the power he has over others!

        Mish


        ********************************

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
        <eckchains@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Love means never having to say you're sorry.
        > ;) Harri
        >
        > Happy Halloween!
        >
        > Freefrom
        >
        >

        *******************************
        > --- In
        EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
        > >Hi All,
        > >
        The 2005 Eckankar World Wide Seminar (5EWWS) gave the LEM/Mahanta
        (Harold Klemp) another opportunity to stick his foot in his mouth.
        And, once again, HK didn't disappoint us!
        > >
        > > The following Klemp quote was taken from HU-Chat,
        an "unofficial" Eckankar Yahoo Group Site and was posted by a Peter
        Anton (message 50809). According to Peter, who took notes, this is
        from Klemp's evening talk on Saturday, October 29, 2005, 8:29 pm.
        > >
        "You never really know your spouse. Love is for relationships.
        Otherwise you don't need it much. Relationships between people and
        between people and animals. Ancient beings who care for each other a
        lot. Many people belittle affections people have for their pets. But
        that doesn't fly for those who understand."
        > >
        > > I find the comment "You never really know your spouse" to be
        rather shallow and sad. If one's mate is their Soul Mate, or if they
        are Twin Souls (both concepts are disavowed by Eckankar) then one
        does come to "really know" their spouse. Thereby is a Love
        experienced that takes one beyond normal limits of expectation and
        understanding. It is somewhat of a rarity for two to find each
        other, but it does happen when one is receptive to the guidance and
        flow of SPIRIT. However, one has to be open and receptive to all
        possibilities when working with the flow of SPIRIT. Unfortunately,
        for Klemp, he does not recognize this factor and, therefore, passes
        his ignorance on to those who follow his words.
        > >
        > > I also find Klemp's comments about love, "you don't need it
        much" to be of great concern for Eckists. Except for relationships,
        with people and animals, why don't you need love... much?
        > >
        > > Here's some quotes from Klemp that contradict what he has just
        stated. "love. Feeling that imparts vitality to thought; feeling is
        desire and desire is love; the adhesive force that holds everything
        together; the doctrine of universal unity; the oneness of the
        SUGMAD; a dichotomy whose opposite is hate in the lower worlds; the
        ECK; the universal law of laws; the divine essence which unites all
        reality and brings together all SOULS; the bond which holds the
        worlds together." (pgs. 126-127, Eckankar Lexicon) "Love, Law of.
        > > The principle which gives THOUGHT the dynamic power to correlate
        with its object and, therefore, to master every adverse human
        experience; feeling that imparts vitality to thought; feeling is
        DESIRE, and desire is LOVE." (pg. 127)
        > >
        > > The problem with Klemp contradicting himself is because these
        Eckankar Lexicon quotes are Not really Klemp's! Klemp took these
        from the Eckankar Dictionary by Paul Twitchell and Twitchell took
        these definitions from other sources. Therefore, it is no wonder
        that Klemp does Not remember, much less understand, the words and
        concepts that he claims to have written in the Lexicon. Even the
        Shariyats contain concepts that Klemp only mimics due to his lack of
        higher consciousness! <sigh>
        > >
        > > I almost feel sorry for "Big Harry" except for his arrogance and
        his cruelty to those he continues to mislead.
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        >
      • christel_heine2003
        ... hallo, Prometheus, where in Eckankar works is written, that God and Allah are only as Fourth Initiate s ? is t in Eckankar Lexicon too? thank you christel
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 2, 2005
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          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          hallo, Prometheus,
          where in Eckankar works is written, that "God and Allah are only as
          Fourth Initiate's"?
          is't in Eckankar Lexicon too?
          thank you christel


          <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Liz,
          > Eckankar sees God and Allah (at best) as 4th Plane dieties! Both
          God
          > and Allah are on the same level of consciousness as is a Fourth
          > Initiate in Eckankar! Therefore, Darrell Johnson's comments about
          > Klemp seeing himself as the "Son of God" is rather understated.
          > Klemp uses "common language" as a means to decieve the public. When
          > Klemp uses the term "God" he is actually referring to SUGMAD. And
          > Klemp defines the Mahanta as being the incarnation of SUGMAD
          > (pg.130, Eckankar Lexicon). In Eckankar the Higher Initiations
          begin
          > with the Fifth Plane Initiations. An Eckist with the Fifth
          > Initiation is Higher than God and Allah! Therefore Jesus and
          > Mohammed (and all others) are seen as even lower in consciousness
          > than those Eckists on the Fourth Plane! Yet, Klemp even quotes from
          > the Christian Bible to further decieve the public of the real dogma
          > and beliefs of Eckankar. If any Eckist would deny this they are
          > either a newer Eckist, don't read much or lack awareness, or they
          > are lying!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > Elizabeth wrote:
          >
          > Prometheus wrote:
          >
          > The following Klemp quote was taken from HU-Chat, an "unofficial"
          > Eckankar Yahoo Group Site
          >
          > <snipped>
          >
          > Harold's quote:
          > "You never really know your spouse. Love is for relationships.
          > Otherwise you don't need it much. Relationships between people and
          > between people and animals.
          >
          > <snipped>
          >
          > *** My comments:
          > While reading from a.r.e. this morning I came across a recent
          repost
          > by leaf. I snipped a paragraph below that stood out for me.
          >
          > I find it interesting that Harold spoke at the recent WW; "You
          never
          > really know your spouse. Love is for relationships. Otherwise you
          > don't need it much." I wonder if Harold has read the below repost,
          > which was originally posted by Darrell Johnson, Ford Johnson's
          > brother on April 22nd 2004 titled "Eckankar Spiritual Leader Claims
          > Title of Son of God" located at
          >
          > http://environment.news.prweb.com/releases/2004/4/prweb120175.htm
          >
          >
          >
          > Does Eckankar Still Work For The Eckist?
          >
          > <snipped>
          >
          > Do you know the truth about that religion or path?
          >
          > Much like a personal relationship filled with love and devotion,
          > it "works" for both partners when it is based on trust 3/4 truth
          3/4
          > and love. However, if one partner is unfaithful or has been
          > dishonest about fundamental issues, a relationship that may appear
          > to pass all the tests cannot do so without fundamental compromises
          > once the deception, the lies and the dishonesty is finally
          revealed.
          > So, the questions that comprise this test presuppose that an
          > affirmative response is based on knowing the real history of the
          > religion and what it represents.
          >
          >
          > *** So Harold's comment seems clear now.... Create that question
          > of doubt and suspicion in the members minds about their loved one,
          > in turn create a stronger reliance on the LEM / Mahanta. You can
          > only trust the Mahanta..... so I wonder how many fanatical eckies
          > went home with this quote playing over and over in their minds?
          > Returning home they have been implanted with another brainwashing
          > techneque, complete love and reliance on that Mythical God Man....
          >
          > Love is for relationships, otherwise you don't need it ["LOVE"]
          > much? Seems BIG Harry has been the unfaithful one in his
          > relationships.... and who really needs him? ;-) NOT ME
          >
          > Liz
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Christel, Well, God and Allah are seen as Fourth Plane dieties by Eckankar, therefore, they would be the equivalent to 4th Initiates. The Christian God
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 2, 2005
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            Hello Christel,

            Well, God and Allah are seen as Fourth Plane dieties by Eckankar,
            therefore, they would be the equivalent to 4th Initiates. The
            Christian God and the Moslem God (Allah) and others are seen by
            Eckankar as residing on the 4th or Mental Plane. The prophets and
            saviors of these world religions are usually seen as residing on
            even lower planes of consciousness. Also, any religion that is
            emotional (Astral) is seen as a 2nd Plane religion by Eckankar.

            The Mahanta is at least a 14th Plane diety and is the incarnation of
            the SUGMAD (Eckankar Lexicon). The SUGMAD ("God" of Eckankar)
            resides on a Plane of consciousness way beyond the 14th, but I'm not
            sure where this is stated in the Eck works. Anyway, this means that
            the Mahanta (14th Plane) is 10 times greater than Allah or the
            Christian God (4th Plane) or of any God of other world religions!
            And, the SUGMAD is even greater!

            I did find a quote, but you may need to look in the Shariyat to find
            a more complete explanation. The following quote is from a 1983
            printing of "The Spiritual Notebook" by Paul Twitchell (Ch.3, pg.37).

            "On closer examination, the fourth plane appears to be the heaven
            for all religions. The followers of Judaism, Islamism, Buddhism,
            Taoism, Bahaiism, Jainism, Shintoism, Sikkhism, and Mithraism, to
            name but a few, adopt this plane of existence after quitting their
            physical bodies."

            Prometheus


            Christel-Heine wrote:

            hallo, Prometheus,
            where in Eckankar works is written, that "God and Allah are only as
            Fourth Initiate's"? is't in Eckankar Lexicon too?

            thank you christel


            > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Liz,
            > > Eckankar sees God and Allah (at best) as 4th Plane dieties!
            Both
            > God
            > > and Allah are on the same level of consciousness as is a Fourth
            > > Initiate in Eckankar! Therefore, Darrell Johnson's comments
            about
            > > Klemp seeing himself as the "Son of God" is rather understated.
            > > Klemp uses "common language" as a means to decieve the public.
            When
            > > Klemp uses the term "God" he is actually referring to SUGMAD.
            And
            > > Klemp defines the Mahanta as being the incarnation of SUGMAD
            > > (pg.130, Eckankar Lexicon). In Eckankar the Higher Initiations
            > begin
            > > with the Fifth Plane Initiations. An Eckist with the Fifth
            > > Initiation is Higher than God and Allah! Therefore Jesus and
            > > Mohammed (and all others) are seen as even lower in
            consciousness
            > > than those Eckists on the Fourth Plane! Yet, Klemp even quotes
            from
            > > the Christian Bible to further decieve the public of the real
            dogma
            > > and beliefs of Eckankar. If any Eckist would deny this they are
            > > either a newer Eckist, don't read much or lack awareness, or
            they
            > > are lying!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > >
            > > Elizabeth wrote:
            > >
            > > Prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > The following Klemp quote was taken from HU-Chat,
            an "unofficial"
            > > Eckankar Yahoo Group Site
            > >
            > > <snipped>
            > >
            > > Harold's quote:
            > > "You never really know your spouse. Love is for relationships.
            > > Otherwise you don't need it much. Relationships between people
            and
            > > between people and animals.
            > >
            > > <snipped>
            > >
            > > *** My comments:
            > > While reading from a.r.e. this morning I came across a recent
            > repost
            > > by leaf. I snipped a paragraph below that stood out for me.
            > >
            > > I find it interesting that Harold spoke at the recent WW; "You
            > never
            > > really know your spouse. Love is for relationships. Otherwise
            you
            > > don't need it much." I wonder if Harold has read the below
            repost,
            > > which was originally posted by Darrell Johnson, Ford Johnson's
            > > brother on April 22nd 2004 titled "Eckankar Spiritual Leader
            Claims
            > > Title of Son of God" located at
            > >
            > > http://environment.news.prweb.com/releases/2004/4/prweb120175.htm
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Does Eckankar Still Work For The Eckist?
            > >
            > > <snipped>
            > >
            > > Do you know the truth about that religion or path?
            > >
            > > Much like a personal relationship filled with love and devotion,
            > > it "works" for both partners when it is based on trust 3/4 truth
            > 3/4
            > > and love. However, if one partner is unfaithful or has been
            > > dishonest about fundamental issues, a relationship that may
            appear
            > > to pass all the tests cannot do so without fundamental
            compromises
            > > once the deception, the lies and the dishonesty is finally
            > revealed.
            > > So, the questions that comprise this test presuppose that an
            > > affirmative response is based on knowing the real history of the
            > > religion and what it represents.
            > >
            > >
            > > *** So Harold's comment seems clear now.... Create that
            question
            > > of doubt and suspicion in the members minds about their loved
            one,
            > > in turn create a stronger reliance on the LEM / Mahanta. You
            can
            > > only trust the Mahanta..... so I wonder how many fanatical
            eckies
            > > went home with this quote playing over and over in their minds?
            > > Returning home they have been implanted with another
            brainwashing
            > > techneque, complete love and reliance on that Mythical God
            Man....
            > >
            > > Love is for relationships, otherwise you don't need it ["LOVE"]
            > > much? Seems BIG Harry has been the unfaithful one in his
            > > relationships.... and who really needs him? ;-) NOT ME
            > >
            > > Liz
            > >
            >
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