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Re: Klemp's Motto on Love

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  • Freefrom
    Love means never having to say you re sorry. ;) Harri Happy Halloween! Freefrom
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 31, 2005
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      Love means never having to say you're sorry.
                                   Harri

      Happy Halloween!

      Freefrom



      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi All,
      >
      > The 2005 Eckankar World Wide Seminar (5EWWS) gave the LEM/Mahanta
      > (Harold Klemp) another opportunity to stick his foot in his mouth.
      > And, once again, HK didn't disappoint us!
      >
      > The following Klemp quote was taken from HU-Chat, an "unofficial"
      > Eckankar Yahoo Group Site and was posted by a Peter Anton (message
      > 50809). According to Peter, who took notes, this is from Klemp's
      > evening talk on Saturday, October 29, 2005, 8:29 pm.
      >
      > "You never really know your spouse. Love is for relationships.
      > Otherwise you don't need it much. Relationships between people and
      > between people and animals. Ancient beings who care for each other a
      > lot. Many people belittle affections people have for their pets. But
      > that doesn't fly for those who understand."
      >
      > I find the comment "You never really know your spouse" to be rather
      > shallow and sad. If one's mate is their Soul Mate, or if they are
      > Twin Souls (both concepts are disavowed by Eckankar) then one does
      > come to "really know" their spouse. Thereby is a Love experienced
      > that takes one beyond normal limits of expectation and
      > understanding. It is somewhat of a rarity for two to find each
      > other, but it does happen when one is receptive to the guidance and
      > flow of SPIRIT. However, one has to be open and receptive to all
      > possibilities when working with the flow of SPIRIT. Unfortunately,
      > for Klemp, he does not recognize this factor and, therefore, passes
      > his ignorance on to those who follow his words.
      >
      > I also find Klemp's comments about love, "you don't need it much" to
      > be of great concern for Eckists. Except for relationships, with
      > people and animals, why don't you need love... much?
      >
      > Here's some quotes from Klemp that contradict what he has just
      > stated. "love. Feeling that imparts vitality to thought; feeling is
      > desire and desire is love; the adhesive force that holds everything
      > together; the doctrine of universal unity; the oneness of the
      > SUGMAD; a dichotomy whose opposite is hate in the lower worlds; the
      > ECK; the universal law of laws; the divine essence which unites all
      > reality and brings together all SOULS; the bond which holds the
      > worlds together." (pgs. 126-127, Eckankar Lexicon) "Love, Law of.
      > The principle which gives THOUGHT the dynamic power to correlate
      > with its object and, therefore, to master every adverse human
      > experience; feeling that imparts vitality to thought; feeling is
      > DESIRE, and desire is LOVE." (pg. 127)
      >
      > The problem with Klemp contradicting himself is because these
      > Eckankar Lexicon quotes are Not really Klemp's! Klemp took these
      > from the Eckankar Dictionary by Paul Twitchell and Twitchell took
      > these definitions from other sources. Therefore, it is no wonder
      > that Klemp does Not remember, much less understand, the words and
      > concepts that he claims to have written in the Lexicon. Even the
      > Shariyats contain concepts that Klemp only mimics due to his lack of
      > higher consciousness! <sigh>
      >
      > I almost feel sorry for "Big Harry" except for his arrogance and his
      > cruelty to those he continues to mislead.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Liz, Eckankar sees God and Allah (at best) as 4th Plane dieties! Both God and Allah are on the same level of consciousness as is a Fourth Initiate in
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 1, 2005
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        Hi Liz,

        Eckankar sees God and Allah (at best) as 4th Plane dieties! Both God
        and Allah are on the same level of consciousness as is a Fourth
        Initiate in Eckankar! Therefore, Darrell Johnson's comments about
        Klemp seeing himself as the "Son of God" is rather understated.
        Klemp uses "common language" as a means to decieve the public. When
        Klemp uses the term "God" he is actually referring to SUGMAD. And
        Klemp defines the Mahanta as being the incarnation of SUGMAD
        (pg.130, Eckankar Lexicon). In Eckankar the Higher Initiations begin
        with the Fifth Plane Initiations. An Eckist with the Fifth
        Initiation is Higher than God and Allah! Therefore Jesus and
        Mohammed (and all others) are seen as even lower in consciousness
        than those Eckists on the Fourth Plane! Yet, Klemp even quotes from
        the Christian Bible to further decieve the public of the real dogma
        and beliefs of Eckankar. If any Eckist would deny this they are
        either a newer Eckist, don't read much or lack awareness, or they
        are lying!

        Prometheus


        Elizabeth wrote:

        Prometheus wrote:

        The following Klemp quote was taken from HU-Chat, an "unofficial"
        Eckankar Yahoo Group Site

        <snipped>

        Harold's quote:
        "You never really know your spouse. Love is for relationships.
        Otherwise you don't need it much. Relationships between people and
        between people and animals.

        <snipped>

        *** My comments:
        While reading from a.r.e. this morning I came across a recent repost
        by leaf. I snipped a paragraph below that stood out for me.

        I find it interesting that Harold spoke at the recent WW; "You never
        really know your spouse. Love is for relationships. Otherwise you
        don't need it much." I wonder if Harold has read the below repost,
        which was originally posted by Darrell Johnson, Ford Johnson's
        brother on April 22nd 2004 titled "Eckankar Spiritual Leader Claims
        Title of Son of God" located at

        http://environment.news.prweb.com/releases/2004/4/prweb120175.htm



        Does Eckankar Still Work For The Eckist?

        <snipped>

        Do you know the truth about that religion or path?

        Much like a personal relationship filled with love and devotion,
        it "works" for both partners when it is based on trust 3/4 truth 3/4
        and love. However, if one partner is unfaithful or has been
        dishonest about fundamental issues, a relationship that may appear
        to pass all the tests cannot do so without fundamental compromises
        once the deception, the lies and the dishonesty is finally revealed.
        So, the questions that comprise this test presuppose that an
        affirmative response is based on knowing the real history of the
        religion and what it represents.


        *** So Harold's comment seems clear now.... Create that question
        of doubt and suspicion in the members minds about their loved one,
        in turn create a stronger reliance on the LEM / Mahanta. You can
        only trust the Mahanta..... so I wonder how many fanatical eckies
        went home with this quote playing over and over in their minds?
        Returning home they have been implanted with another brainwashing
        techneque, complete love and reliance on that Mythical God Man....

        Love is for relationships, otherwise you don't need it ["LOVE"]
        much? Seems BIG Harry has been the unfaithful one in his
        relationships.... and who really needs him? ;-) NOT ME

        Liz
      • mishmisha9
        Hi, Freefrom, Prometheus & All! I don t really remember reading Harri saying, Love means never having to say you re sorry, but, hey, perhaps, he has--he s no
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 1, 2005
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          Hi, Freefrom, Prometheus & All!

          I don't really remember reading Harri saying, "Love means never
          having to say you're sorry," but, hey, perhaps, he has--he's no more
          original than PT! LOL!

          It is interesting,indeed, the comments or lack of comments that HK
          has made concerning love--"You never really know your spouse. Love
          is for relationships. Otherwise you don't need it much." What about
          Divine Love?

          Then HK goes on: "Relationships between people and between people
          and animals. Ancient beings who care for each other a lot. Many
          people belittle affections people have for their pets. But that
          doesn't fly for those who understand." Such ramblings! : ) The thing
          is most of us, IMO, have had or presently have relationships with
          animals, and so news to HK, I don't think that "many people
          belittle" people with pets. Just read the stories about the rescuing
          of stranded pets in the aftermath of the destruction from the recent
          hurricanes along the Gulf Coast? There were many reports about that.
          Also, specific animal rescue groups help coordinate efforts to save
          those animals and re-unite them with their owners. Donations were
          sent to animal orgs. for that specific usage--so, frankly, I don't
          know why HK would think that many people do not understand the
          relationship that people have with animals. This is delusional
          thinking really.

          Well, anyway, reading these remarks that Harold made in his seminar
          talk had me reflecting back on his autobiography stories, and I
          realized what was missing! LOVE! Think about it! Do any of you
          recall HK talking about the love he has for family and friends? I
          don't remember any of his stories revealing that. But what I do
          remember is the anger he expresses in having to deal with people,
          and of course, all of his criticisms of others. Lots of negativity
          really--so how did HK ever become a happy human being? Well, my
          guess is that he hasn't!

          One of the reasons he says "You never really know your spouse" would
          be that he does not understand human relationships. He didn't know
          how to take jokes when he was young and harbored resentment--i.e.
          against an older farmer who was having fun with a group of farmers
          including little Harry. Little Harry was too young to understand the
          joke, so he has held on to the anger he felt about the joking
          centered around him. He didn't know to lighten up then and he still
          doesn't know to lighten up! Yes, as an adult, he still accuses this
          old farmer of doing something nasty to him and HK is still mad--
          sounds like arrested development at a very young age. A good
          therapist could have fun with this one. But the thing is HK shares
          in his autobio negative personal experiences--oh, poor, Harry, how
          difficult his childhood must have been, but heck look where all this
          martyrdom has gotten him! He's the delusional leader of a religious
          cult! : ) Isn't that special?

          I tried to recall anything that he wrote about being loved or in
          love or wanting to love in his autobiographies. I don't remember him
          sharing any stories in which he expressed how much he loved his
          parents, for instance. But I do remember that chapter where he
          references a biblical passage about letting the dead bury the dead.
          HK did not go home for his father's funeral. Not only did he not
          feel the need for himself to honor and respect his father, he
          demonstrated a lack of compassion and love by not being present to
          comfort and console his grieving mother and siblings. Interesting
          that he felt no need to go home.

          I think HK feels more comfortable with relationships with animals
          because animals can be controlled easier, animals do not disagree
          with you or point out your flaws, and animals are faithful
          regardless of your short-comings! Just so much easier to deal with
          animals than humans. Animal needs are not so demanding and also
          animals can be more easily replaced. People, on the other hand, are
          more difficult to understand, are not easily controlled (unless
          under the influence of some power, like a cult), have the ability to
          use critical thinking, there-by, can see through lies and
          deceptions, and people will shift loyalty when they smell something
          rotten in Denmark! : ) Animals just don't have the consciousness to
          be held to higher standards.

          So, can anyone really recall any personal stories that HK has shared
          about himself in which he demonstrates love or having been loved? He
          talks about love, but it seems he does not at all know what it is,
          and that is why he underplays the importance of human love in his
          talks and tries to make people feel guilty if they feel love too
          strongly towards others, especially those close to them. How is it
          regarded in Eckankar? Oh, yes, it is a lower consciousness--human
          love, and "you don't need it much." Yes, he does say love is for
          relationships--but he doesn't really define relationships, does he?
          Truly difficult for him, I guess.

          HK smiles out at his audiences but not because of the love he feels
          for them (he does not understand love); rather, HK smiles because he
          has his chelas right where he wants them--under his thumb! If HK
          loves anything, it's the power he has over others!

          Mish


          ********************************

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Freefrom"
          <eckchains@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Love means never having to say you're sorry.
          > ;) Harri
          >
          > Happy Halloween!
          >
          > Freefrom
          >
          >

          *******************************
          > --- In
          EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
          > >Hi All,
          > >
          The 2005 Eckankar World Wide Seminar (5EWWS) gave the LEM/Mahanta
          (Harold Klemp) another opportunity to stick his foot in his mouth.
          And, once again, HK didn't disappoint us!
          > >
          > > The following Klemp quote was taken from HU-Chat,
          an "unofficial" Eckankar Yahoo Group Site and was posted by a Peter
          Anton (message 50809). According to Peter, who took notes, this is
          from Klemp's evening talk on Saturday, October 29, 2005, 8:29 pm.
          > >
          "You never really know your spouse. Love is for relationships.
          Otherwise you don't need it much. Relationships between people and
          between people and animals. Ancient beings who care for each other a
          lot. Many people belittle affections people have for their pets. But
          that doesn't fly for those who understand."
          > >
          > > I find the comment "You never really know your spouse" to be
          rather shallow and sad. If one's mate is their Soul Mate, or if they
          are Twin Souls (both concepts are disavowed by Eckankar) then one
          does come to "really know" their spouse. Thereby is a Love
          experienced that takes one beyond normal limits of expectation and
          understanding. It is somewhat of a rarity for two to find each
          other, but it does happen when one is receptive to the guidance and
          flow of SPIRIT. However, one has to be open and receptive to all
          possibilities when working with the flow of SPIRIT. Unfortunately,
          for Klemp, he does not recognize this factor and, therefore, passes
          his ignorance on to those who follow his words.
          > >
          > > I also find Klemp's comments about love, "you don't need it
          much" to be of great concern for Eckists. Except for relationships,
          with people and animals, why don't you need love... much?
          > >
          > > Here's some quotes from Klemp that contradict what he has just
          stated. "love. Feeling that imparts vitality to thought; feeling is
          desire and desire is love; the adhesive force that holds everything
          together; the doctrine of universal unity; the oneness of the
          SUGMAD; a dichotomy whose opposite is hate in the lower worlds; the
          ECK; the universal law of laws; the divine essence which unites all
          reality and brings together all SOULS; the bond which holds the
          worlds together." (pgs. 126-127, Eckankar Lexicon) "Love, Law of.
          > > The principle which gives THOUGHT the dynamic power to correlate
          with its object and, therefore, to master every adverse human
          experience; feeling that imparts vitality to thought; feeling is
          DESIRE, and desire is LOVE." (pg. 127)
          > >
          > > The problem with Klemp contradicting himself is because these
          Eckankar Lexicon quotes are Not really Klemp's! Klemp took these
          from the Eckankar Dictionary by Paul Twitchell and Twitchell took
          these definitions from other sources. Therefore, it is no wonder
          that Klemp does Not remember, much less understand, the words and
          concepts that he claims to have written in the Lexicon. Even the
          Shariyats contain concepts that Klemp only mimics due to his lack of
          higher consciousness! <sigh>
          > >
          > > I almost feel sorry for "Big Harry" except for his arrogance and
          his cruelty to those he continues to mislead.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          >
        • christel_heine2003
          ... hallo, Prometheus, where in Eckankar works is written, that God and Allah are only as Fourth Initiate s ? is t in Eckankar Lexicon too? thank you christel
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 2, 2005
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            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            hallo, Prometheus,
            where in Eckankar works is written, that "God and Allah are only as
            Fourth Initiate's"?
            is't in Eckankar Lexicon too?
            thank you christel


            <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Liz,
            > Eckankar sees God and Allah (at best) as 4th Plane dieties! Both
            God
            > and Allah are on the same level of consciousness as is a Fourth
            > Initiate in Eckankar! Therefore, Darrell Johnson's comments about
            > Klemp seeing himself as the "Son of God" is rather understated.
            > Klemp uses "common language" as a means to decieve the public. When
            > Klemp uses the term "God" he is actually referring to SUGMAD. And
            > Klemp defines the Mahanta as being the incarnation of SUGMAD
            > (pg.130, Eckankar Lexicon). In Eckankar the Higher Initiations
            begin
            > with the Fifth Plane Initiations. An Eckist with the Fifth
            > Initiation is Higher than God and Allah! Therefore Jesus and
            > Mohammed (and all others) are seen as even lower in consciousness
            > than those Eckists on the Fourth Plane! Yet, Klemp even quotes from
            > the Christian Bible to further decieve the public of the real dogma
            > and beliefs of Eckankar. If any Eckist would deny this they are
            > either a newer Eckist, don't read much or lack awareness, or they
            > are lying!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > Elizabeth wrote:
            >
            > Prometheus wrote:
            >
            > The following Klemp quote was taken from HU-Chat, an "unofficial"
            > Eckankar Yahoo Group Site
            >
            > <snipped>
            >
            > Harold's quote:
            > "You never really know your spouse. Love is for relationships.
            > Otherwise you don't need it much. Relationships between people and
            > between people and animals.
            >
            > <snipped>
            >
            > *** My comments:
            > While reading from a.r.e. this morning I came across a recent
            repost
            > by leaf. I snipped a paragraph below that stood out for me.
            >
            > I find it interesting that Harold spoke at the recent WW; "You
            never
            > really know your spouse. Love is for relationships. Otherwise you
            > don't need it much." I wonder if Harold has read the below repost,
            > which was originally posted by Darrell Johnson, Ford Johnson's
            > brother on April 22nd 2004 titled "Eckankar Spiritual Leader Claims
            > Title of Son of God" located at
            >
            > http://environment.news.prweb.com/releases/2004/4/prweb120175.htm
            >
            >
            >
            > Does Eckankar Still Work For The Eckist?
            >
            > <snipped>
            >
            > Do you know the truth about that religion or path?
            >
            > Much like a personal relationship filled with love and devotion,
            > it "works" for both partners when it is based on trust 3/4 truth
            3/4
            > and love. However, if one partner is unfaithful or has been
            > dishonest about fundamental issues, a relationship that may appear
            > to pass all the tests cannot do so without fundamental compromises
            > once the deception, the lies and the dishonesty is finally
            revealed.
            > So, the questions that comprise this test presuppose that an
            > affirmative response is based on knowing the real history of the
            > religion and what it represents.
            >
            >
            > *** So Harold's comment seems clear now.... Create that question
            > of doubt and suspicion in the members minds about their loved one,
            > in turn create a stronger reliance on the LEM / Mahanta. You can
            > only trust the Mahanta..... so I wonder how many fanatical eckies
            > went home with this quote playing over and over in their minds?
            > Returning home they have been implanted with another brainwashing
            > techneque, complete love and reliance on that Mythical God Man....
            >
            > Love is for relationships, otherwise you don't need it ["LOVE"]
            > much? Seems BIG Harry has been the unfaithful one in his
            > relationships.... and who really needs him? ;-) NOT ME
            >
            > Liz
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Christel, Well, God and Allah are seen as Fourth Plane dieties by Eckankar, therefore, they would be the equivalent to 4th Initiates. The Christian God
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 2, 2005
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              Hello Christel,

              Well, God and Allah are seen as Fourth Plane dieties by Eckankar,
              therefore, they would be the equivalent to 4th Initiates. The
              Christian God and the Moslem God (Allah) and others are seen by
              Eckankar as residing on the 4th or Mental Plane. The prophets and
              saviors of these world religions are usually seen as residing on
              even lower planes of consciousness. Also, any religion that is
              emotional (Astral) is seen as a 2nd Plane religion by Eckankar.

              The Mahanta is at least a 14th Plane diety and is the incarnation of
              the SUGMAD (Eckankar Lexicon). The SUGMAD ("God" of Eckankar)
              resides on a Plane of consciousness way beyond the 14th, but I'm not
              sure where this is stated in the Eck works. Anyway, this means that
              the Mahanta (14th Plane) is 10 times greater than Allah or the
              Christian God (4th Plane) or of any God of other world religions!
              And, the SUGMAD is even greater!

              I did find a quote, but you may need to look in the Shariyat to find
              a more complete explanation. The following quote is from a 1983
              printing of "The Spiritual Notebook" by Paul Twitchell (Ch.3, pg.37).

              "On closer examination, the fourth plane appears to be the heaven
              for all religions. The followers of Judaism, Islamism, Buddhism,
              Taoism, Bahaiism, Jainism, Shintoism, Sikkhism, and Mithraism, to
              name but a few, adopt this plane of existence after quitting their
              physical bodies."

              Prometheus


              Christel-Heine wrote:

              hallo, Prometheus,
              where in Eckankar works is written, that "God and Allah are only as
              Fourth Initiate's"? is't in Eckankar Lexicon too?

              thank you christel


              > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Liz,
              > > Eckankar sees God and Allah (at best) as 4th Plane dieties!
              Both
              > God
              > > and Allah are on the same level of consciousness as is a Fourth
              > > Initiate in Eckankar! Therefore, Darrell Johnson's comments
              about
              > > Klemp seeing himself as the "Son of God" is rather understated.
              > > Klemp uses "common language" as a means to decieve the public.
              When
              > > Klemp uses the term "God" he is actually referring to SUGMAD.
              And
              > > Klemp defines the Mahanta as being the incarnation of SUGMAD
              > > (pg.130, Eckankar Lexicon). In Eckankar the Higher Initiations
              > begin
              > > with the Fifth Plane Initiations. An Eckist with the Fifth
              > > Initiation is Higher than God and Allah! Therefore Jesus and
              > > Mohammed (and all others) are seen as even lower in
              consciousness
              > > than those Eckists on the Fourth Plane! Yet, Klemp even quotes
              from
              > > the Christian Bible to further decieve the public of the real
              dogma
              > > and beliefs of Eckankar. If any Eckist would deny this they are
              > > either a newer Eckist, don't read much or lack awareness, or
              they
              > > are lying!
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              > > Elizabeth wrote:
              > >
              > > Prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > The following Klemp quote was taken from HU-Chat,
              an "unofficial"
              > > Eckankar Yahoo Group Site
              > >
              > > <snipped>
              > >
              > > Harold's quote:
              > > "You never really know your spouse. Love is for relationships.
              > > Otherwise you don't need it much. Relationships between people
              and
              > > between people and animals.
              > >
              > > <snipped>
              > >
              > > *** My comments:
              > > While reading from a.r.e. this morning I came across a recent
              > repost
              > > by leaf. I snipped a paragraph below that stood out for me.
              > >
              > > I find it interesting that Harold spoke at the recent WW; "You
              > never
              > > really know your spouse. Love is for relationships. Otherwise
              you
              > > don't need it much." I wonder if Harold has read the below
              repost,
              > > which was originally posted by Darrell Johnson, Ford Johnson's
              > > brother on April 22nd 2004 titled "Eckankar Spiritual Leader
              Claims
              > > Title of Son of God" located at
              > >
              > > http://environment.news.prweb.com/releases/2004/4/prweb120175.htm
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Does Eckankar Still Work For The Eckist?
              > >
              > > <snipped>
              > >
              > > Do you know the truth about that religion or path?
              > >
              > > Much like a personal relationship filled with love and devotion,
              > > it "works" for both partners when it is based on trust 3/4 truth
              > 3/4
              > > and love. However, if one partner is unfaithful or has been
              > > dishonest about fundamental issues, a relationship that may
              appear
              > > to pass all the tests cannot do so without fundamental
              compromises
              > > once the deception, the lies and the dishonesty is finally
              > revealed.
              > > So, the questions that comprise this test presuppose that an
              > > affirmative response is based on knowing the real history of the
              > > religion and what it represents.
              > >
              > >
              > > *** So Harold's comment seems clear now.... Create that
              question
              > > of doubt and suspicion in the members minds about their loved
              one,
              > > in turn create a stronger reliance on the LEM / Mahanta. You
              can
              > > only trust the Mahanta..... so I wonder how many fanatical
              eckies
              > > went home with this quote playing over and over in their minds?
              > > Returning home they have been implanted with another
              brainwashing
              > > techneque, complete love and reliance on that Mythical God
              Man....
              > >
              > > Love is for relationships, otherwise you don't need it ["LOVE"]
              > > much? Seems BIG Harry has been the unfaithful one in his
              > > relationships.... and who really needs him? ;-) NOT ME
              > >
              > > Liz
              > >
              >
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