Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Contradictions Are What Helps ECKankar Work

Expand Messages
  • prometheus_973
    For example: In ECKANKAR we don t have any misconceptions that we re going to have a life of bliss or that life is going to treat us better than everyone
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 26, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      For example:

      "In ECKANKAR we don't have 
      any misconceptions that we're 
      going to have a life of bliss 
      or that life is going to treat 
      us better than everyone else, 
      simply because we're in ECKANKAR."

      Sri Harold Klemp,
      How the Inner Master Works, 
      pgs. 188-189

      ME: That sounds rather
      ambiguous doesn't it?

      Actually I thought that 
      the Mahanta was greater
      than the 2nd and 4th plane
      'God' of all other religions.
      Look at all of the miracles
      attributed to Christianity
      which is at best a 4th plane
      religion, although, Twitchell
      and Klemp claim Jesus was
      a merely a 2nd Initiate. 

      Where are ECKankar's miracles?

      They're rather insignificant
      compared to those of lower
      plane religions. Why's that?

      And, don't/shouldn't Higher 
      Initiates have greater expectations 
      due to their higher consciousness
      and all the promises of protection
      etc. that were first told to us/them?  

      This is Bait and Switch!

      Klemp claims to be a 
      'Modern Day Prophet!'

      It seems 'Prophets' aren't
      what they used to be
      when we define them 
      by the same standards 
      as Klemp uses.

      But, if HK's a great Prophet
      why shouldn't ECKists have 
      it "better than everyone
      else" by being his followers?

      And, isn't this 'higher' con 
      of EK greater than what all 
      other religious leaders and 
      their Saints and Prophets
      have experienced? No, it
      falls short again and again.

      Isn't it true that ECK High
      Initiates are karma less?

      Thus, any trial or challenge
      presented to H.I.s is merely
      a test for future initiations
      and is no longer karmic.
      Isn't this benefit attributed 
      to the Mahanta? This is no
      "misconception" as Klemp
      would have us to believe or
      not believe (I'm not sure which).
      However "miracles" i.e. Black
      Magic are expected and are 
      shared in EK pubs.
       
      It seems Klemp is making
      a disclaimer since he can't
      deliver on his, or Twitchell's,
      immense promises, especially, 
      involving "protection." Look 
      at all of those H.I.s who have
      died of cancer!

      And, aren't ECKists promised
      a life of bliss after translating
      or when visiting Higher Planes!
      The goal is reaching the 5th
      Plane and beyond... to the
      Ocean of Love and Mercy
      where the Sugmad resides...
      the 10th Plane. Oops! HK
      is of the 14th Plane so that 
      must mean that the Mahanta 
      is higher than Sugmad! Yet,
      Klemp states that ECKists 
      should Not have any greater 
      expectations than a person 
      who worships a 2nd Plane 
      God. That's an interesting 
      but a confusing concept.

      Then again, Klemp, keeping 
      ECKists off balance and befuddled
      is how he makes ECKankar 
      work so well... for himself! 

      Prometheus

    • Russ Rodnick
      I know I am a bit off track (from the thread). I read that Eckankar promises a life of bliss after death on some higher plane.  Now, that is a very passive
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 5, 2014
      • 0 Attachment
        I know I am a bit off track (from the thread). I read that Eckankar promises a life of bliss after death on some higher plane.  Now, that is a very passive sounding existence isn't it?  Look, I am not defending Eckankar.  What happened to the idea that we are asleep, and should learn to awaken?  Sleeping people have their ideas of heaven, but they are just the dreams of sleeping people. What if we are to wake up, what would our ideas of heaven be? The idea of a an awakened being, a master if you will represents our potential. There have been masters who we will never know I think, because it just makes sense to me that there have been and I think there has been a "way" that I don't know a thing about other than what I have read. But I have tried to understand how difficult it is through my own efforts at practicing some of the ideas that make sense to me. I think Eckankar has some good ideas concerning spiritual growth but they present a whitewashed teaching, that we can awaken with just 20 minutes of practice a day and a developing a life of service.  I agree with that as a fundamental, but I think there is more required of us because of a little thing called "conscience". Also, I have read that there are tremendous forces against our awakening. Hence, it requires the development of will, that few really have. Nature doesn't require that we awaken, it is fine with our continued sleep. 

        I mean the whole idea of becoming an awakened being with a fully functioning conscience is counter to the idea of religion. Religion makes sheep of people. 

        every day I try to remember what I wish for in the deeper part of my being, is to awaken and spend a little time sensing the higher part of my being. 

        I am just fine without imagining myself as a 'channel of the mahanta." 

        Ironically, I am sometimes a channel for the holy spirit but it just happens. 

        Ah, well whatever happens. 

        Live. 




        On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 4:20 PM, "prometheus_973@..." <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
         
        For example:

        "In ECKANKAR we don't have 
        any misconceptions that we're 
        going to have a life of bliss 
        or that life is going to treat 
        us better than everyone else, 
        simply because we're in ECKANKAR."

        Sri Harold Klemp,
        How the Inner Master Works, 
        pgs. 188-189

        ME: That sounds rather
        ambiguous doesn't it?

        Actually I thought that 
        the Mahanta was greater
        than the 2nd and 4th plane
        'God' of all other religions.
        Look at all of the miracles
        attributed to Christianity
        which is at best a 4th plane
        religion, although, Twitchell
        and Klemp claim Jesus was
        a merely a 2nd Initiate. 

        Where are ECKankar's miracles?

        They're rather insignificant
        compared to those of lower
        plane religions. Why's that?

        And, don't/shouldn't Higher 
        Initiates have greater expectations 
        due to their higher consciousness
        and all the promises of protection
        etc. that were first told to us/them?  

        This is Bait and Switch!

        Klemp claims to be a 
        'Modern Day Prophet!'

        It seems 'Prophets' aren't
        what they used to be
        when we define them 
        by the same standards 
        as Klemp uses.

        But, if HK's a great Prophet
        why shouldn't ECKists have 
        it "better than everyone
        else" by being his followers?

        And, isn't this 'higher' con 
        of EK greater than what all 
        other religious leaders and 
        their Saints and Prophets
        have experienced? No, it
        falls short again and again.

        Isn't it true that ECK High
        Initiates are karma less?

        Thus, any trial or challenge
        presented to H.I.s is merely
        a test for future initiations
        and is no longer karmic.
        Isn't this benefit attributed 
        to the Mahanta? This is no
        "misconception" as Klemp
        would have us to believe or
        not believe (I'm not sure which).
        However "miracles" i.e. Black
        Magic are expected and are 
        shared in EK pubs.
         
        It seems Klemp is making
        a disclaimer since he can't
        deliver on his, or Twitchell's,
        immense promises, especially, 
        involving "protection." Look 
        at all of those H.I.s who have
        died of cancer!

        And, aren't ECKists promised
        a life of bliss after translating
        or when visiting Higher Planes!
        The goal is reaching the 5th
        Plane and beyond... to the
        Ocean of Love and Mercy
        where the Sugmad resides...
        the 10th Plane. Oops! HK
        is of the 14th Plane so that 
        must mean that the Mahanta 
        is higher than Sugmad! Yet,
        Klemp states that ECKists 
        should Not have any greater 
        expectations than a person 
        who worships a 2nd Plane 
        God. That's an interesting 
        but a confusing concept.

        Then again, Klemp, keeping 
        ECKists off balance and befuddled
        is how he makes ECKankar 
        work so well... for himself! 

        Prometheus



      • prometheus_973
        Hi Russ, Thanks for sharing your thoughts and giving your perspective. ECKankar/Klemp and all religions make a lot of promises. It s part of the game they
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 16, 2014
        • 0 Attachment

          Hi Russ,

          Thanks for sharing your thoughts

          and giving your perspective.


          ECKankar/Klemp and all religions

          make a lot of promises. It's part

          of the game they play. Funny too

          that God only talks to authorized

          "Prophets" and HE is never heard 

          by masses of people. 


          The same can be said for the

          so-called invisible ECK Masters

          like Rebazar. PT and Klemp can 

          claim RT visited and spoke to them 

          and that RT versus Gross handed

          HK the Rod of EK Power but others 

          having had the same or similar 

          experience with RT are called 

          heretics! But, it's the same with 

          all religions when the leader/prophet 

          is challenged.


          The larger, older, and more powerful

          the religion the greater the punishment

          for having had an 'unauthorized' spiritual

          experience. And, the smaller the

          religion and the more fundamental

          the religion the greater the possibility

          that the religious leader having had 

          "God" talk to him is a cheap conman.

          In truth they're all pretty much deluded 

          and/or are conmen. 


          Then again, is it always "God"

          who speaks to them? How do 

          they know it's God talking to 

          them? They can't know! Nobody 

          can know! And, unless an "authorized" 

          official/leader/expert and sage 

          or a council determines this by 

          analyzing the dogma or via prayer 

          an ordinary individual cannot have 

          an experience with God unless it

          is determined a "miracle." But,

          a "miracle" by EK standards simply

          means 'a changed consciousness.'

          However, even this miracle doesn't

          give an EKist the right to have a

          dream or a spiritual experience

          or to have God speak to them 

          since only Klemp can be the 

          conduit and the authority. Otherwise, 

          this would place the EKist on 

          the same 'level' with Klemp.


          Therefore, officially, ordinary individuals

          can only have spiritual experiences with 

          KAL/Satan i.e. Devil or demons.


          Now, there are fundamentalists who

          claim to speak in tongues and those

          who can unknowingly interpret it. I've 

          been to these churches. It's interesting

          but doesn't prove much when these

          people leave as flawed as when they

          came... over and over again. 

           

          Basically, imo, Belief is a personal 

          and private experience and nobody 

          is an expert on God. There are only 

          posers who memorize, analyze, discuss

          and piece together their dogma and 

          are able to intellectually impress 

          or talk in circles using accepted 

          fabrications.


          That's the catch about any religious

          dogma. People have to accept it 

          on faith and assume that the main 

          premises behind the dogma are 

          true in order to believe the edited 

          and reedited stories and laws handed

          down over time. It doesn't mean

          that any of the original premises

          (that God exists and talks to and

          has handed down laws for the 

          living and behavior to a chosen few) 

          are true but it's become convenient 

          and full of traditions. And membership 

          in a religion gives one a feeling 

          of pride and power. It can be fun

          pretending and there's the social

          aspect too. Plus, it's easy to become 

          blind follower and not think that 

          your Prophets might have been

          lying, but if they did it was for 

          your (and their) own good. 


          Sometimes religions became 

          survival tools during more primitive 

          times.


          Prometheus 

              

           

        • russrodnick
          Hello Prometheus, I just got to your reply, and I hadn t thought through the topic of religion and its leaders though I know we are all influenced by various
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 3, 2014
          • 0 Attachment

            Hello Prometheus,


            I just got to your reply, and I hadn't thought through the topic of religion and its leaders though I know we are all influenced by various religions from childhood, hence it is relevant. There is such a spectrum to religious experiences that it seems true to me that the very word conjures up different meanings. Meanings, which are internal ideas, feelings, images, etc. The whole field, I think is subjective. 


            Trust is perhaps the commodity (weird word to relate to trust, I know) that makes religion work. 


            Do you know of Gurdjieff? Some said he wasn't spiritual because he had various affairs, was constantly asking for money and could be really abusive. However, one of his ideas was that we are asleep and when someone "wakes up" they can see themselves and others more clearly. I think, this idea that we are asleep accounts for the dual nature of people hence, a person can be spiritual in one moment but lustful, greedy or whatever in the next. We are not "one" but many. "Who is thinking and typing this message and how does it feel to be in the body doing this?", is the kind of question I find very interesting. 


            Just thoughts. Thanks for the dialogue.


            Russ



          • Janice Pfeiffer
            Thank you Russ for your posting.  It echoes the kinds of things I have been thinking since leaving the org.  I must say although I don t have the kinds of
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 4, 2014
            • 0 Attachment
              Thank you Russ for your posting.  It echoes the kinds of things I have been thinking since leaving the org.  I must say although I don't have the kinds of mystical experiences that I had in the org, I do think that I see more than ever about myself and others.  It does have a feeling of waking up.  Since the org, I am amused that the org emphasizes waking up but really it feels like you are being pounded with the idea of closing your self off from everything but the lies and manipulation of the org.  What I got was that there supposedly is nothing worth while outside of the org.   And it is those on the outside who supposedly are the deceivers.  I know that when I found the org, I was still wanting something bigger than me to guide me.  And I thought the org was it.  I did not see the org as producing the kinds of things that it claimed it did.  When I looked at the people who had been in the org a long, long time, they seemed stale and lacking in understanding.  They appeared like a bunch of dead heads.  I remember now how hard it was to check out an experience because the lem would discourage you from sharing your experiences and even if it appeared to be an inner experience with others, there was absolutely no way to get verification that there was anything real about it.  Finally, instead of seeing highly advanced beings among members as described in the books, they were more childish and more of everything I viewed as negative traits.  I did not find any value for truth in members. In fact, just the opposite.  The local center seemed to be constantly over shadowed by lies and gossip.  They all told things about each other and it appeared they wanted gossipy stuff on the new people.  I finally left when I got the whole truth about initiations and how they came about.  They were based on the same gossip the centers ran on.  At that point, the org had nothing to offer me.  They had nothing better than what you can find in any other org across the US.  Excuse me, I mean any org that is not based on ideals.  In short, it was my experience that new people are made to feel bad if they don't become lying, two faced individuals who had not the ability to think for themselves.  I am grateful for my state since leaving the org and I feel it is a direct result of having experienced what I did but I am sure it is far from what the org would have me experience.  I don't look back really but I do feel that some part of me will always wish there was some spiritual org worth believing in.  I know I am on my own now and the most I can hope for is an occasional recognition of a likeness in thought like I saw when reading your post.  Yes, I also feel you do have to reach a level of trust based on nothing but the belief in the lem and the org.  To me it is total brain washing and that's all.  Thanks again.   









              From: "russrodnick@..." <russrodnick@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, February 4, 2014 12:38 AM
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Contradictions Are What Helps ECKankar Work
               
              Hello Prometheus,

              I just got to your reply, and I hadn't thought through the topic of religion and its leaders though I know we are all influenced by various religions from childhood, hence it is relevant. There is such a spectrum to religious experiences that it seems true to me that the very word conjures up different meanings. Meanings, which are internal ideas, feelings, images, etc. The whole field, I think is subjective. 

              Trust is perhaps the commodity (weird word to relate to trust, I know) that makes religion work. 

              Do you know of Gurdjieff? Some said he wasn't spiritual because he had various affairs, was constantly asking for money and could be really abusive. However, one of his ideas was that we are asleep and when someone "wakes up" they can see themselves and others more clearly. I think, this idea that we are asleep accounts for the dual nature of people hence, a person can be spiritual in one moment but lustful, greedy or whatever in the next. We are not "one" but many. "Who is thinking and typing this message and how does it feel to be in the body doing this?", is the kind of question I find very interesting. 

              Just thoughts. Thanks for the dialogue.

              Russ


            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.