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Re: Is klemp a psychopath??

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, I m not really sure what kind of psychopathy Klemp does have. I m thinking it s a few overlapping personality disorders and mental illness. He was
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 7 9:17 PM
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      Hello All,
      I'm not really sure what
      kind of psychopathy Klemp
      does have. I'm thinking it's
      a few overlapping personality
      disorders and mental illness.
      He was locked up and then
      tricked the psychologist to
      get released early. And then
      he bragged about it!

      Does Klemp have Narcissism
      (NPD)? Yes! Borderline Personality
      Disorder? Maybe. Arrested
      Development? Definitely!
      Is he a liar? Absolutely!

      HK rationalizes it all away.
      He's getting what he wants...
      money, admiration, respect,
      and sex! Just kidding on that
      last one!

      And, Eckists are getting a
      New Age religion that fulfills
      their needs and feeds their
      egos with those glorious
      initiations. If you're weak-minded
      like most brain-washed religious
      fanatics Eckankar presents
      a good fit except for two things.
      One flaw is the Mahanta scam
      and the other is the Initiation
      scam.

      If these two definitions were
      rewritten where the Mahanta
      was everyone's OverSoul
      and the initiations were
      levels acquired within the
      Eckankar physical org.
      (and nothing "spiritual")
      then, this, would be a more
      acceptable form of insanity.

      But, I've known Eckists with
      Bi-polar disorder as well. In
      actuality, Eckists are just as
      screwed up as any religious
      or political fanatic.

      And, most Eckists buy into
      the New Age mumbo jumbo
      of one sort or another and
      much of this came from Eckankar's
      stay in California with Twitchell,
      Gross, and Klemp.

      Eckists have no special abilities
      or protection than any other
      person. They imagine they do
      but it's all wishful thinking. Yet,
      they pretend they are special
      and will see the Mahanta when
      they "translate" (their page in
      history). The supposed soul
      travel and dream travel experiences
      are supposed to validate this,
      but Christianity has more of
      the same kind and even greater
      experiences (miracles) than
      Eckists.... even healing!

      Did you ever see Klemp heal
      a blind man as 2nd Initiate
      Jesus did? No! Of course not!
      Klemp's a fraud!

      And, did you know that EMF
      affects H.I.s more than lower
      initiates (chelas) because the
      EK H.I. has "finer vibrations."
      LOL! No, it's true! This is what
      they actually believe because
      they read it and it was told to
      them. How gullible, delusional,
      and arrogant!

      I was thinking about why H.I.s
      tend to be more fearful of
      computers and I realized this
      was why... EMF and the finer
      vibration story. Then, again,
      many H.I.s are older and would
      fear computers anyway! They're
      technologically challenged.

      Prometheus

      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      Thanks Harrison, I have believed for sometime there must be something wrong with
      her but it is hard to face that when nothing you can remember happening in her
      developmental life could have created her ways.

      Finally, it is hard to cut a loved one out of your life. It helped me to
      realize that it really had nothing to do with me although she still looks and
      sounds like my child that I love.

      You mentioned the lies that break up relationships. I saw some of that too.

      Thanks again

      harrisonferrel wrote:

      A psychopath doesn't love. However, they can be attached to pets, things and
      people. They can display affection or kindness but it's not the same emotion
      that we feel because they do not have the ability to have this sort of feeling.
      I have known a couple of sociopaths who have seemed loving and I know one who
      shows affection to her dogs.

      A person does not "become" a psychopath through learning or psychological
      trauma. As I said, it's a deficit of the brain itself. And there are different
      personalities within the psychopathic model. Some are very passive and even
      lazy, while others are quite industrious. They can put this industry into
      revenge.

      They can be extremely manipulative, but when you don't play along they can go
      after you and make your life miserable, including lying to people close to you
      to create a rift between you. They are experts at ruining relationships. Instead
      of feeling one way or the other, their decisions are more calculated in favor of
      what benefits them. For this reason they can seem to have happy relationships.
      But this does, or would, change when the relationship no longer benefits them.
      In a normal relationship we try to support and offer love to another person even
      if it inconveniences us or we "get" nothing out of it. Not so with a psychopath.
      It's all about them.

      But you would also need to read up on narcissists as well because they are self
      centered in the same way and can be misidentified for psychopaths.

      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      >
      > Thank you Harrison,
      > Would a sociopath love animals? I mean all types. She is especially fond of
      sea creatures like dolphins and manatees. She is an undersea diver. She has two
      kittens she takes loving care of. Most people don't see anything wrong with what
      she does. The truth is she is my daughter and I get a lot of abusive treatment
      from her. I finally had to put a stop to her angry outbursts. I told her that I
      was willing to talk to her about the problems with or with out a therapists. I
      got no response. Toward me, her actions still seemed to be to cause me pain
      while she still does not admit what she does is wrong. Although, I am finding it
      hard to be objective at this time, she comes across like a heartless demon.
      Although until about a year ago, we didn't have any problems between us, on
      several occasions she went out of her way to get even with people she thought
      wronged her. Most people would just move on, she seems to get obsessed with
      revenge. When I asked why she wanted to hurt people, she simple said because she
      can. She has appeared very fragile since she lost her mate and her job about
      the same time. It certainly had nothing to do with me but I feel like I am the
      stand in for the people she can't get at for pay back. Recently, I informed my
      children and my daughter in law that the doctor thought I had cancer. My son
      and loving daughter in law have been with me every step of the way. I simply
      got no response from my daughter and I have heard not a word from her at all
      although she does stay abreast of what is going on with the other two. Not one
      word of comfort or support has she given and looking back, I don't think there
      were any times that she ever did offer support. I will get the book and read
      it. Any more insight you might have is appreciated. I didn't intend to get
      into it because it is a family thing but I need to understand these things.
      >
      > Thanks again
      >
      harrisonferrel wrote:

      > I have extensive experience in this field. I would recommend, for starters,
      that you read The Sociopath Next Door (Martha Stout, PhD). Sociopaths can make
      us doubt ourselves. They are experts at mimicking real emotions because they
      have had to learn this behavior from an early age in order to survive in a
      normal world. They continue to suck you back into a relationship after
      disagreements. They make you feel like "it must be me because he/she seems so
      sincere. Surely I must just be too sensitive or judgmental..." The only way to
      win against a psychopath is to completely disassociate from them without ever
      starting up again. It's all or nothing. They are parasitic to the nth degree.
      >
      > Further, sociopaths (which is the same thing as psychopaths) often marry
      narcissists or other sociopaths. Narcissists are similar but do have a degree of
      real emotionality.
      >
      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      > >
      > > I myself right now, am dealing with a person whose ways and personality is
      causing me great concern because she may be a sociopath. She was married to an
      individual who definitely was a sociopath. From what I read. the victim of a
      sociopath once out of the relationship may act like the sociopath because the
      pain of what they endured causes them to strike at others and so they use the
      same techniques as the sociopath.

      > > In short this is an issue that concerns me greatly at this point. I love
      this would be sociopath. I bounce back and forth thinking she is a sociopath to
      thinking she is merely acting like one because of the long term exposure to one.
      Her actions are painful and detrimental to others for sure. I am having to
      create distance with this person because she won't allow healthy interactions
      with her and takes every opportunity to maim.
      > >
      > > All of you who have knowledge in this area, please give to me what you may
      know. In this case, it is very hard for me to be objective.
      > >
      eckchains@> wrote:

      > >
      Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at
      some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable
      at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
      > >
      Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm
      not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some
      religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or
      evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a
      Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from
      birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
      > >
      I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice
      Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings.
      The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for
      example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering
      Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that
      is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in
      this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with.
      If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good
      example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype.
      I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with
      being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you
      followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not
      doing so. It takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that
      mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group
      like this.
      > >
      Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen,
      imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't
      hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit
      to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
      > >
      When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over
      time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master,
      following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on.
      Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who
      knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this
      problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very
      profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The
      same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than
      it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society,
      imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the
      first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe
      later. :) )
      > >
      > > Non ;)
      > >
      <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
      > > >
      I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
      > > >
      As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with
      his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion,
      they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them
      to be ardent missionaries.
      > > >
      Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths
      suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It
      is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that
      both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      <eckchains@> wrote:
      > > > >
      Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance"
      and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for
      personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time,
      followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training,
      and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile.
      What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as
      pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can
      be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new
      friends. But still.....
      > > > >
      I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several
      people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the
      word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits
      and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a
      nice day in Nature.
      > > > >
      I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around
      about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my
      sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just
      joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he
      said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too.
      Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet
      Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand
      and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten
      seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of
      Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
      > > > >
      Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter
      experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even
      pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of
      religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the
      idiocy.
      > > > >
      > > > > Non ;)
      > > > >
      "harrisonferrel" wrote:
      > > > > >
      Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking
      to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with
      people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across
      the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the
      lies.
      > > > > >
      When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information
      on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what
      it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough
      to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me
      only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the
      cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp
      was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you
      live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
    • harrisonferrel
      Well said, as usual. It s not possible to diagnose klemp, or anyone, from afar. However, he does exhibit behavior that looks like narcissism or psychopathy.
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 8 6:26 AM
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        Well said, as usual.

        It's not possible to diagnose klemp, or anyone, from afar. However, he does exhibit behavior that looks like narcissism or psychopathy. And you're right about his mental problems and how he bragged about them. This should have been a BIG RED FLAG for all of us. This just goes to show how we could all rationalize away what was an obvious psychological problem right before our eyes. Eckists, like other religious zealots, are quick to dismiss or forgive the leader's transgressions and faults.

        Also, yes to the fact that klemp is a fraud in the fine tradition of twitch and gross. Unless you're a complete delusional psychotic then you know you are a fraud. But my contention is that, since klemp has carried on this fraud for so very long, he must be fully aware of his crimes.

        If you apply basic philosophy and psychology to eckankar it quickly falls apart. Add a little mythology and common sense and you see right through the scam. I can say this in the least — eckankar forced me to delve into these studies so I could separate truth from fiction and manipulation.

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > I'm not really sure what
        > kind of psychopathy Klemp
        > does have. I'm thinking it's
        > a few overlapping personality
        > disorders and mental illness.
        > He was locked up and then
        > tricked the psychologist to
        > get released early. And then
        > he bragged about it!
        >
        > Does Klemp have Narcissism
        > (NPD)? Yes! Borderline Personality
        > Disorder? Maybe. Arrested
        > Development? Definitely!
        > Is he a liar? Absolutely!
        >
        > HK rationalizes it all away.
        > He's getting what he wants...
        > money, admiration, respect,
        > and sex! Just kidding on that
        > last one!
        >
        > And, Eckists are getting a
        > New Age religion that fulfills
        > their needs and feeds their
        > egos with those glorious
        > initiations. If you're weak-minded
        > like most brain-washed religious
        > fanatics Eckankar presents
        > a good fit except for two things.
        > One flaw is the Mahanta scam
        > and the other is the Initiation
        > scam.
        >
        > If these two definitions were
        > rewritten where the Mahanta
        > was everyone's OverSoul
        > and the initiations were
        > levels acquired within the
        > Eckankar physical org.
        > (and nothing "spiritual")
        > then, this, would be a more
        > acceptable form of insanity.
        >
        > But, I've known Eckists with
        > Bi-polar disorder as well. In
        > actuality, Eckists are just as
        > screwed up as any religious
        > or political fanatic.
        >
        > And, most Eckists buy into
        > the New Age mumbo jumbo
        > of one sort or another and
        > much of this came from Eckankar's
        > stay in California with Twitchell,
        > Gross, and Klemp.
        >
        > Eckists have no special abilities
        > or protection than any other
        > person. They imagine they do
        > but it's all wishful thinking. Yet,
        > they pretend they are special
        > and will see the Mahanta when
        > they "translate" (their page in
        > history). The supposed soul
        > travel and dream travel experiences
        > are supposed to validate this,
        > but Christianity has more of
        > the same kind and even greater
        > experiences (miracles) than
        > Eckists.... even healing!
        >
        > Did you ever see Klemp heal
        > a blind man as 2nd Initiate
        > Jesus did? No! Of course not!
        > Klemp's a fraud!
        >
        > And, did you know that EMF
        > affects H.I.s more than lower
        > initiates (chelas) because the
        > EK H.I. has "finer vibrations."
        > LOL! No, it's true! This is what
        > they actually believe because
        > they read it and it was told to
        > them. How gullible, delusional,
        > and arrogant!
        >
        > I was thinking about why H.I.s
        > tend to be more fearful of
        > computers and I realized this
        > was why... EMF and the finer
        > vibration story. Then, again,
        > many H.I.s are older and would
        > fear computers anyway! They're
        > technologically challenged.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        > Thanks Harrison, I have believed for sometime there must be something wrong with
        > her but it is hard to face that when nothing you can remember happening in her
        > developmental life could have created her ways.
        >
        > Finally, it is hard to cut a loved one out of your life. It helped me to
        > realize that it really had nothing to do with me although she still looks and
        > sounds like my child that I love.
        >
        > You mentioned the lies that break up relationships. I saw some of that too.
        >
        > Thanks again
        >
        > harrisonferrel wrote:
        >
        > A psychopath doesn't love. However, they can be attached to pets, things and
        > people. They can display affection or kindness but it's not the same emotion
        > that we feel because they do not have the ability to have this sort of feeling.
        > I have known a couple of sociopaths who have seemed loving and I know one who
        > shows affection to her dogs.
        >
        > A person does not "become" a psychopath through learning or psychological
        > trauma. As I said, it's a deficit of the brain itself. And there are different
        > personalities within the psychopathic model. Some are very passive and even
        > lazy, while others are quite industrious. They can put this industry into
        > revenge.
        >
        > They can be extremely manipulative, but when you don't play along they can go
        > after you and make your life miserable, including lying to people close to you
        > to create a rift between you. They are experts at ruining relationships. Instead
        > of feeling one way or the other, their decisions are more calculated in favor of
        > what benefits them. For this reason they can seem to have happy relationships.
        > But this does, or would, change when the relationship no longer benefits them.
        > In a normal relationship we try to support and offer love to another person even
        > if it inconveniences us or we "get" nothing out of it. Not so with a psychopath.
        > It's all about them.
        >
        > But you would also need to read up on narcissists as well because they are self
        > centered in the same way and can be misidentified for psychopaths.
        >
        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        > >
        > > Thank you Harrison,
        > > Would a sociopath love animals? I mean all types. She is especially fond of
        > sea creatures like dolphins and manatees. She is an undersea diver. She has two
        > kittens she takes loving care of. Most people don't see anything wrong with what
        > she does. The truth is she is my daughter and I get a lot of abusive treatment
        > from her. I finally had to put a stop to her angry outbursts. I told her that I
        > was willing to talk to her about the problems with or with out a therapists. I
        > got no response. Toward me, her actions still seemed to be to cause me pain
        > while she still does not admit what she does is wrong. Although, I am finding it
        > hard to be objective at this time, she comes across like a heartless demon.
        > Although until about a year ago, we didn't have any problems between us, on
        > several occasions she went out of her way to get even with people she thought
        > wronged her. Most people would just move on, she seems to get obsessed with
        > revenge. When I asked why she wanted to hurt people, she simple said because she
        > can. She has appeared very fragile since she lost her mate and her job about
        > the same time. It certainly had nothing to do with me but I feel like I am the
        > stand in for the people she can't get at for pay back. Recently, I informed my
        > children and my daughter in law that the doctor thought I had cancer. My son
        > and loving daughter in law have been with me every step of the way. I simply
        > got no response from my daughter and I have heard not a word from her at all
        > although she does stay abreast of what is going on with the other two. Not one
        > word of comfort or support has she given and looking back, I don't think there
        > were any times that she ever did offer support. I will get the book and read
        > it. Any more insight you might have is appreciated. I didn't intend to get
        > into it because it is a family thing but I need to understand these things.
        > >
        > > Thanks again
        > >
        > harrisonferrel wrote:
        >
        > > I have extensive experience in this field. I would recommend, for starters,
        > that you read The Sociopath Next Door (Martha Stout, PhD). Sociopaths can make
        > us doubt ourselves. They are experts at mimicking real emotions because they
        > have had to learn this behavior from an early age in order to survive in a
        > normal world. They continue to suck you back into a relationship after
        > disagreements. They make you feel like "it must be me because he/she seems so
        > sincere. Surely I must just be too sensitive or judgmental..." The only way to
        > win against a psychopath is to completely disassociate from them without ever
        > starting up again. It's all or nothing. They are parasitic to the nth degree.
        > >
        > > Further, sociopaths (which is the same thing as psychopaths) often marry
        > narcissists or other sociopaths. Narcissists are similar but do have a degree of
        > real emotionality.
        > >
        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I myself right now, am dealing with a person whose ways and personality is
        > causing me great concern because she may be a sociopath. She was married to an
        > individual who definitely was a sociopath. From what I read. the victim of a
        > sociopath once out of the relationship may act like the sociopath because the
        > pain of what they endured causes them to strike at others and so they use the
        > same techniques as the sociopath.
        >
        > > > In short this is an issue that concerns me greatly at this point. I love
        > this would be sociopath. I bounce back and forth thinking she is a sociopath to
        > thinking she is merely acting like one because of the long term exposure to one.
        > Her actions are painful and detrimental to others for sure. I am having to
        > create distance with this person because she won't allow healthy interactions
        > with her and takes every opportunity to maim.
        > > >
        > > > All of you who have knowledge in this area, please give to me what you may
        > know. In this case, it is very hard for me to be objective.
        > > >
        > eckchains@> wrote:
        >
        > > >
        > Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at
        > some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable
        > at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
        > > >
        > Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm
        > not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some
        > religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or
        > evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a
        > Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from
        > birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
        > > >
        > I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice
        > Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings.
        > The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for
        > example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering
        > Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that
        > is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in
        > this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with.
        > If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good
        > example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype.
        > I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with
        > being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you
        > followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not
        > doing so. It takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that
        > mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group
        > like this.
        > > >
        > Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen,
        > imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't
        > hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit
        > to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
        > > >
        > When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over
        > time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master,
        > following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on.
        > Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who
        > knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this
        > problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very
        > profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The
        > same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than
        > it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society,
        > imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the
        > first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe
        > later. :) )
        > > >
        > > > Non ;)
        > > >
        > <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
        > > > >
        > As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with
        > his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion,
        > they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them
        > to be ardent missionaries.
        > > > >
        > Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths
        > suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It
        > is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that
        > both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > <eckchains@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance"
        > and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for
        > personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time,
        > followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training,
        > and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile.
        > What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as
        > pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can
        > be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new
        > friends. But still.....
        > > > > >
        > I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several
        > people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the
        > word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits
        > and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a
        > nice day in Nature.
        > > > > >
        > I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around
        > about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my
        > sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just
        > joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he
        > said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too.
        > Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet
        > Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand
        > and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten
        > seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of
        > Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
        > > > > >
        > Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter
        > experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even
        > pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of
        > religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the
        > idiocy.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Non ;)
        > > > > >
        > "harrisonferrel" wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking
        > to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with
        > people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across
        > the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the
        > lies.
        > > > > > >
        > When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information
        > on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what
        > it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough
        > to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me
        > only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the
        > cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp
        > was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you
        > live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
        >
      • noneckchains
        harrisonferrel, Klemp is most likely a Sociopath etc. and I despise him and the whole eckankar Cult. The Living Eck Master is to me obviously Authoritarian
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 10 6:00 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          harrisonferrel,

          Klemp is most likely a Sociopath etc. and I despise him and the whole eckankar Cult. "The Living Eck Master" is to me obviously Authoritarian and also, I recall that along with the books I read initially, that the first discourse was very much written in a style that was quite grandiose and stated that eckankar was THE one and only most direct path to the Godhead, along with being able to control the weather, soul travel, out of body experiences and so on. It was recommended that you literally memorize the discourses, and to even avoid reading other books. The Truth was here, why go elsewhere. I don't know how you could have stayed a member for 12 years, while ignoring this, just to find out more about OBE's.
          That said:

          Actually, it does seem that in this post you are being insulting, condescending and strangely displaying an authoritarian form of Science. Science as I understand it is not based on absolute assertions. Every once and a while, I have come across David Lane's discussion on the subject of Science and if anything, it is quite the opposite. It starts with the assumption Of "I don't know" to quite literally guessing, hypothesizing, coming up with a theory, testing it and changing it and always being open to more change and peer review and so on. You state that a Sociopath is always a result of a defect in the brain and has nothing to do with experiences whatsoever, end of story, and then you proceed to give others advise and make diagnosis as if you are an expert based on being a life long studier of Psychology, whatever that means. Calling me ignorant is an odd use of the word, in this context.

          I am coming from a Social Psychology point of view which is very experimental, Neuroscience and Cultural influences. Here are some quotes and links that imo add to the richness of the discussion and also show that stress and child abuse/neglect, aculturation (sometimes war) does/can have a high probability of causing sociopathic behavior (and neurological impact), and other disorders, not just in individuals, but also in Society at large:

          http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=10a

          Two thousand years ago, the people of ancient Rome cheered enthusiastically as they watched gladiators fight each other to the death, and saw innocent persons torn to pieces by wild beasts. In that same era, Roman teachers practiced corporal punishment on a daily basis. The Roman schools were stocked with a variety of instruments used to beat children, including the ferula (a bundle of switches made from birch branches), the scutia (a whip made of leather straps), and the flagellum (a whip made of straps from ox-hide, the hardest available leather).

          Although feeding slaves to lions and beating children in schools were acceptable practices to the mass of Roman citizens, occasionally a voice of protest cried out. The rhetorician Quintilian (C.E. 35 to C.E. 95) wrote: "I am entirely against the practice of corporal punishment in education, although it is widespread ... In the first place it is disgusting and slavish treatment, which would certainly be regarded as an insult if it were not inflicted on boys. Further, the pupil whose mind is too coarse to be improved by censure will become as indifferent to blows as the worst of slaves. Finally, these chastisements would be entirely unnecessary if the teachers were patient and helpful."

          http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130407090835.htm

          Puberty is another sensitive time of development and stress experienced at this time can also be involved in programming adult mood disorders. Prof Holmes and her colleagues have found evidence from imaging studies in rats that stress in early teenage years could affect mood and emotional behaviour via changes in the brain's neural networks associated with emotional processing.

          The researchers used fMRI (Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging) to see which pathways in the brain were affected when stressed, peripubertal rats responded to a specific learned task. [1].

          Prof Holmes will say: "We showed that in stressed 'teenage' rats, the part of the brain region involved in emotion and fear (known as amygdala) was activated in an exaggerated fashion when compared to controls. The results from this study clearly showed that altered emotional processing occurs in the amygdala in response to stress during this crucial period of development."

          Einstein was a Scientist who came up with theories that opened the door to new research, but much of it was proven after the theorizing. The theory of Psychopaths is important, but I'm not buying all of it as you describe it. And believe me I have had too many experiences in real life with individuals who were pathological liars and manipulators. The ones I knew on a more personal level, definitely had childhood trauma, either from bad parenting or general cultural influences. And we haven't even talked about Bowlby's Attachment Theory yet.

          Non ;)



          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:
          >
          > You say you think there are different levels of sociopath. However, this is not a fact; it's speculation based on an opinion, but not science. For a start you can read Martha Stout's book The Sociopath Next Door, then read Robert Hare's work on the subject. There are also good articles written by psychologists online. In fact, Hare has a website with a lot of good information.
          >
          > I don't want to be insulting by saying that your opinion is ignorant, but it is not based on science or research. Please read up on sociopathy because you will see how well the eck leaders, including twitchell and klemp fit into this profile.
          >
          >
          > Sociopathy is a dysfunction of a portion of the amygdala in the brain. You would have to read about this to fully understand. It is not a psychological problem in the same way as neuroses, etc. If you study what sociopathy is, then you'd understand that this is not a matter of degrees but a matter of absence of a brain function. Certainly there are different manifestations, but you cannot be partially sociopathic. You either have certain traits or you do not. One of them is a lack of remorse and sense of guilt.
          >
          > Also, I didn't join eckankar for any authoritarian purpose, as you suggest. Instead, I joined because of a curiosity about out of body experiences. In fact, when I first went to an eck center I thought Twitchell was still the leader. I read two of his books and thought I was onto something. I did not join to become a better person or enlightened being or any of that shit. It was just to further my interest in out of body experiences. When I discovered that Klemp was in charge and listened to what he had to say it rubbed me the wrong way. Still I thought that was my deficiency and I hung in for 12 years but never got involved in the social aspect or the organization.
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
          > >
          > > Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
          > >
          > > I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings. The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with. If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype. I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not doing so. It takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group like this.
          > >
          > > Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen, imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
          > >
          > > When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master, following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on. Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society, imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe later. :) )
          > >
          > > Non ;)
          > >
          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
          > > >
          > > > As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion, they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them to be ardent missionaries.
          > > >
          > > > Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance" and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time, followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training, and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile. What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new friends. But still.....
          > > > >
          > > > > I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a nice day in Nature.
          > > > >
          > > > > I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too. Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
          > > > >
          > > > > Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the idiocy.
          > > > >
          > > > > Non ;)
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the lies.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • harrisonferrel
          First, if I m being insulting, I apologize. Not my intent. Still, I can t agree that I was ever drawn to authoritarianism, or were several people I know.
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 10 1:15 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            First, if I'm being insulting, I apologize. Not my intent. Still, I can't agree that I was ever drawn to authoritarianism, or were several people I know.

            Regarding sociopathy, you'd have to study this to understand my point, I guess, in stating that you can't be "in training" because it's a brain issue. You are either missing a particular function of the brain or you are not. Sociopathy is not a psychological condition, it is physical. I'm not sure what you are reading to draw your conclusions, but because you state "I think," it leads me to believe that you are not well versed in this problem. Also, it is indeed possible to detect a malfunction or non-function regarding the area of the brain in the amygdala that identifies what makes a sociopath. Certainly there are other issues that can make someone a liar, thief or evil person, not only sociopathy. I do understand what you say when you write that people can become more and more like the sociopath they are following, picking up many of their traits. I agree. But this cannot make them true sociopaths.

            People are not born hating, but many are born sociopaths. Certainly, their upbringing and societal constraints, etc. can determine the degree to which their sociopathy affects others.

            I do appreciate your comments.


            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@...> wrote:
            >
            > Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
            >
            > Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
            >
            > I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings. The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with. If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype. I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not doing so. It takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group like this.
            >
            > Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen, imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
            >
            > When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master, following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on. Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society, imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe later. :) )
            >
            > Non ;)
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
            > >
            > > As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion, they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them to be ardent missionaries.
            > >
            > > Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance" and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time, followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training, and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile. What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new friends. But still.....
            > > >
            > > > I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a nice day in Nature.
            > > >
            > > > I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too. Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
            > > >
            > > > Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the idiocy.
            > > >
            > > > Non ;)
            > > >
            > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the lies.
            > > > >
            > > > > When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • noneckchains
            harrisonferrel, Since my post was completely left out and has some references for you to consider(and maybe others), I guess I ll have to repost it. That I may
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 10 6:37 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              harrisonferrel,

              Since my post was completely left out and has some references for you to consider(and maybe others), I guess I'll have to repost it. That I may say "I think..." just means that I don't always feel the need to say "I Know...". Saying "I Know" all the time is kind of arrogant, imho. Also, joining an Authoritarian Cult like eckankar and declaring that you didn't believe in the Authoritarian part is a little like saying that you support a Dictator, but don't believe there should be Dictators. It doesn't make any sense. Without "The Living Eck Master", there is no eckankar. Cults have Authoritarian Leaders, Prophets, Masters, Supreme this or that,etc..

              The Scientific Method does not have Authoritarian Leaders, or make Absolute Assertions. If it does, then whatever is going on is diverging from Science. Anything is open to questioning and ongoing discovery and change. Unfortunately, even in the Scientific world, sometimes personality worship can occur, or beliefs become set in stone and so on....even false proofs and claims occur.

              And I think you may be ignoring research on brain neuroplasticity, as well as other factors, Social Psychology, Alice Miller's research on the effects of child abuse and neglect, Sociology.....

              Anyway here's my post that you left out:

              harrisonferrel,

              Klemp is most likely a Sociopath etc. and I despise him and the whole eckankar
              Cult. "The Living Eck Master" is to me obviously Authoritarian and also, I
              recall that along with the books I read initially, that the first discourse was
              very much written in a style that was quite grandiose and stated that eckankar
              was THE one and only most direct path to the Godhead, along with being able to
              control the weather, soul travel, out of body experiences and so on. It was
              recommended that you literally memorize the discourses, and to even avoid
              reading other books. The Truth was here, why go elsewhere. I don't know how you
              could have stayed a member for 12 years, while ignoring this, just to find out
              more about OBE's.
              That said:

              Actually, it does seem that in this post you are being insulting, condescending
              and strangely displaying an authoritarian form of Science. Science as I
              understand it is not based on absolute assertions. Every once and a while, I
              have come across David Lane's discussion on the subject of Science and if
              anything, it is quite the opposite. It starts with the assumption Of "I don't
              know" to quite literally guessing, hypothesizing, coming up with a theory,
              testing it and changing it and always being open to more change and peer review
              and so on. You state that a Sociopath is always a result of a defect in the
              brain and has nothing to do with experiences whatsoever, end of story, and then
              you proceed to give others advise and make diagnosis as if you are an expert
              based on being a life long studier of Psychology, whatever that means. Calling
              me ignorant is an odd use of the word, in this context.

              I am coming from a Social Psychology point of view which is very experimental,
              Neuroscience and Cultural influences. Here are some quotes and links that imo
              add to the richness of the discussion and also show that stress and child
              abuse/neglect, aculturation (sometimes war) does/can have a high probability of
              causing sociopathic behavior (and neurological impact), and other disorders, not
              just in individuals, but also in Society at large:

              http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=10a

              Two thousand years ago, the people of ancient Rome cheered enthusiastically as
              they watched gladiators fight each other to the death, and saw innocent persons
              torn to pieces by wild beasts. In that same era, Roman teachers practiced
              corporal punishment on a daily basis. The Roman schools were stocked with a
              variety of instruments used to beat children, including the ferula (a bundle of
              switches made from birch branches), the scutia (a whip made of leather straps),
              and the flagellum (a whip made of straps from ox-hide, the hardest available
              leather).

              Although feeding slaves to lions and beating children in schools were acceptable
              practices to the mass of Roman citizens, occasionally a voice of protest cried
              out. The rhetorician Quintilian (C.E. 35 to C.E. 95) wrote: "I am entirely
              against the practice of corporal punishment in education, although it is
              widespread ... In the first place it is disgusting and slavish treatment, which
              would certainly be regarded as an insult if it were not inflicted on boys.
              Further, the pupil whose mind is too coarse to be improved by censure will
              become as indifferent to blows as the worst of slaves. Finally, these
              chastisements would be entirely unnecessary if the teachers were patient and
              helpful."

              http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130407090835.htm

              Puberty is another sensitive time of development and stress experienced at this
              time can also be involved in programming adult mood disorders. Prof Holmes and
              her colleagues have found evidence from imaging studies in rats that stress in
              early teenage years could affect mood and emotional behaviour via changes in the
              brain's neural networks associated with emotional processing.

              The researchers used fMRI (Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging) to see which
              pathways in the brain were affected when stressed, peripubertal rats responded
              to a specific learned task. [1].

              Prof Holmes will say: "We showed that in stressed 'teenage' rats, the part of
              the brain region involved in emotion and fear (known as amygdala) was activated
              in an exaggerated fashion when compared to controls. The results from this study
              clearly showed that altered emotional processing occurs in the amygdala in
              response to stress during this crucial period of development."

              Einstein was a Scientist who came up with theories that opened the door to new
              research, but much of it was proven after the theorizing. The theory of
              Psychopaths is important, but I'm not buying all of it as you describe it. And
              believe me I have had too many experiences in real life with individuals who
              were pathological liars and manipulators. The ones I knew on a more personal
              level, definitely had childhood trauma, either from bad parenting or general
              cultural influences. And we haven't even talked about Bowlby's Attachment Theory
              yet.

              Non ;)



              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel"
              <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:
              >
              > You say you think there are different levels of sociopath. However, this is
              not a fact; it's speculation based on an opinion, but not science. For a start
              you can read Martha Stout's book The Sociopath Next Door, then read Robert
              Hare's work on the subject. There are also good articles written by
              psychologists online. In fact, Hare has a website with a lot of good
              information.
              >
              > I don't want to be insulting by saying that your opinion is ignorant, but it
              is not based on science or research. Please read up on sociopathy because you
              will see how well the eck leaders, including twitchell and klemp fit into this
              profile.
              >
              >
              > Sociopathy is a dysfunction of a portion of the amygdala in the brain. You
              would have to read about this to fully understand. It is not a psychological
              problem in the same way as neuroses, etc. If you study what sociopathy is, then
              you'd understand that this is not a matter of degrees but a matter of absence of
              a brain function. Certainly there are different manifestations, but you cannot
              be partially sociopathic. You either have certain traits or you do not. One of
              them is a lack of remorse and sense of guilt.
              >
              > Also, I didn't join eckankar for any authoritarian purpose, as you suggest.
              Instead, I joined because of a curiosity about out of body experiences. In fact,
              when I first went to an eck center I thought Twitchell was still the leader. I
              read two of his books and thought I was onto something. I did not join to become
              a better person or enlightened being or any of that shit. It was just to further
              my interest in out of body experiences. When I discovered that Klemp was in
              charge and listened to what he had to say it rubbed me the wrong way. Still I
              thought that was my deficiency and I hung in for 12 years but never got involved
              in the social aspect or the organization.

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:
              >
              > First, if I'm being insulting, I apologize. Not my intent. Still, I can't agree that I was ever drawn to authoritarianism, or were several people I know.
              >
              > Regarding sociopathy, you'd have to study this to understand my point, I guess, in stating that you can't be "in training" because it's a brain issue. You are either missing a particular function of the brain or you are not. Sociopathy is not a psychological condition, it is physical. I'm not sure what you are reading to draw your conclusions, but because you state "I think," it leads me to believe that you are not well versed in this problem. Also, it is indeed possible to detect a malfunction or non-function regarding the area of the brain in the amygdala that identifies what makes a sociopath. Certainly there are other issues that can make someone a liar, thief or evil person, not only sociopathy. I do understand what you say when you write that people can become more and more like the sociopath they are following, picking up many of their traits. I agree. But this cannot make them true sociopaths.
              >
              > People are not born hating, but many are born sociopaths. Certainly, their upbringing and societal constraints, etc. can determine the degree to which their sociopathy affects others.
              >
              > I do appreciate your comments.
              >
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
              > >
              > > Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
              > >
              > > I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings. The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with. If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype. I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not doing so. It takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group like this.
              > >
              > > Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen, imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
              > >
              > > When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master, following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on. Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society, imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe later. :) )
              > >
              > > Non ;)
              > >
              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
              > > >
              > > > As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion, they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them to be ardent missionaries.
              > > >
              > > > Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance" and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time, followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training, and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile. What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new friends. But still.....
              > > > >
              > > > > I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a nice day in Nature.
              > > > >
              > > > > I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too. Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
              > > > >
              > > > > Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the idiocy.
              > > > >
              > > > > Non ;)
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the lies.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
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