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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is klemp a psychopath??

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    Thank you Harrison, Would a sociopath love animals?  I mean all types.  She is especially fond of sea creatures like dolphins and manatees.  She is an
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 7 3:06 PM
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      Thank you Harrison,
      Would a sociopath love animals?  I mean all types.  She is especially fond of sea creatures like dolphins and manatees.  She is an undersea diver.  She has two kittens she takes loving care of.  Most people don't see anything wrong with what she does.  The truth is she is my daughter and I get a lot of abusive treatment from her.  I finally had to put a stop to her angry outbursts.  I told her that I was willing to talk to her about the problems with or with out a therapists.  I got no response.  Toward me, her actions still seemed to be to cause me pain while she still does not admit what she does is wrong.  Although, I am finding it hard to be objective at this time, she comes across like a heartless demon.  Although until about a year ago, we didn't have any problems between us, on several occasions she went out of her way to get even with people she thought wronged her.  Most people would just move on, she seems to get obsessed with revenge.  When I asked why she wanted to hurt people, she simple said because she can.  She has appeared very fragile since she lost her mate and her job about the same time.  It certainly had nothing to do with me but I feel like I am the stand in for the people she can't get at for pay back.  Recently, I informed my children and my daughter in law that the doctor thought I had cancer.  My son and loving daughter in law have been with me every step of the way.   I simply got no response from my daughter and I have heard not a word from her at all although she does stay abreast of what is going on with the other two.  Not one word of comfort or support has she given and looking back, I don't think there were any times that she ever did offer support.  I will get the book and read it.  Any more insight you might have is appreciated.  I didn't intend to get into it because it is a family thing but I need to understand these things. 
       
      Thanks again

      --- On Sun, 4/7/13, harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:

      From: harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is klemp a psychopath??
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, April 7, 2013, 7:08 PM

       
      I have extensive experience in this field. I would recommend, for starters, that you read The Sociopath Next Door (Martha Stout, PhD). Sociopaths can make us doubt ourselves. They are experts at mimicking real emotions because they have had to learn this behavior from an early age in order to survive in a normal world. They continue to suck you back into a relationship after disagreements. They make you feel like "it must be me because he/she seems so sincere. Surely I must just be too sensitive or judgmental..." The only way to win against a psychopath is to completely disassociate from them without ever starting up again. It's all or nothing. They are parasitic to the nth degree.

      Further, sociopaths (which is the same thing as psychopaths) often marry narcissists or other sociopaths. Narcissists are similar but do have a degree of real emotionality.

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
      >
      > I myself right now, am dealing with a person whose ways and personality is causing me great concern because she may be a sociopath.  She was married to an individual who definitely was a sociopath.  From what I read. the victim of a sociopath once out of the relationship may act like the sociopath because the pain of what they endured causes them to strike at others and so they use the same techniques as the sociopath. 
      >  
      > In short this is an issue that concerns me greatly at this point.  I love this would be sociopath.  I bounce back and forth thinking she is a sociopath to thinking she is merely acting like one because of the long term exposure to one.  Her actions are painful and detrimental to others for sure.   I am having to create distance with this person because she won't allow healthy interactions with her and takes every opportunity to maim. 
      >  
      > All of you who have knowledge in this area, please give to me what you may know.  In this case, it is very hard for me to be objective. 
      >
      > --- On Fri, 4/5/13, noneckchains <eckchains@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: noneckchains <eckchains@...>
      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is klemp a psychopath??
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Friday, April 5, 2013, 8:07 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
      >
      > Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
      >
      > I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings. The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with. If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype. I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not doing so. It
      > takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group like this.
      >
      > Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen, imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
      >
      > When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master, following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on. Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society, imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe later. :) )
      >
      > Non ;)
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
      > >
      > > As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion, they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them to be ardent missionaries.
      > >
      > > Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance" and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time, followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training, and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile. What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new friends. But still.....
      > > >
      > > > I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a nice day in Nature.
      > > >
      > > > I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too. Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
      > > >
      > > > Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the idiocy.
      > > >
      > > > Non ;)
      > > >
      > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the lies.
      > > > >
      > > > > When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >

    • harrisonferrel
      A psychopath doesn t love. However, they can be attached to pets, things and people. They can display affection or kindness but it s not the same emotion that
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 7 5:12 PM
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        A psychopath doesn't love. However, they can be attached to pets, things and people. They can display affection or kindness but it's not the same emotion that we feel because they do not have the ability to have this sort of feeling. I have known a couple of sociopaths who have seemed loving and I know one who shows affection to her dogs.

        A person does not "become" a psychopath through learning or psychological trauma. As I said, it's a deficit of the brain itself. And there are different personalities within the psychopathic model. Some are very passive and even lazy, while others are quite industrious. They can put this industry into revenge.

        They can be extremely manipulative, but when you don't play along they can go after you and make your life miserable, including lying to people close to you to create a rift between you. They are experts at ruining relationships. Instead of feeling one way or the other, their decisions are more calculated in favor of what benefits them. For this reason they can seem to have happy relationships. But this does, or would, change when the relationship no longer benefits them. In a normal relationship we try to support and offer love to another person even if it inconveniences us or we "get" nothing out of it. Not so with a psychopath. It's all about them.

        But you would also need to read up on narcissists as well because they are self centered in the same way and can be misidentified for psychopaths.

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thank you Harrison,
        > Would a sociopath love animals?  I mean all types.  She is especially fond of sea creatures like dolphins and manatees.  She is an undersea diver.  She has two kittens she takes loving care of.  Most people don't see anything wrong with what she does.  The truth is she is my daughter and I get a lot of abusive treatment from her.  I finally had to put a stop to her angry outbursts.  I told her that I was willing to talk to her about the problems with or with out a therapists.  I got no response.  Toward me, her actions still seemed to be to cause me pain while she still does not admit what she does is wrong.  Although, I am finding it hard to be objective at this time, she comes across like a heartless demon.  Although until about a year ago, we didn't have any problems between us, on several occasions she went out of her way to get even with people she thought wronged her.  Most people would just move on, she seems to get obsessed with
        > revenge.  When I asked why she wanted to hurt people, she simple said because she can.  She has appeared very fragile since she lost her mate and her job about the same time.  It certainly had nothing to do with me but I feel like I am the stand in for the people she can't get at for pay back.  Recently, I informed my children and my daughter in law that the doctor thought I had cancer.  My son and loving daughter in law have been with me every step of the way.   I simply got no response from my daughter and I have heard not a word from her at all although she does stay abreast of what is going on with the other two.  Not one word of comfort or support has she given and looking back, I don't think there were any times that she ever did offer support.  I will get the book and read it.  Any more insight you might have is appreciated.  I didn't intend to get into it because it is a family thing but I need to understand these things. 
        >  
        > Thanks again
        >
        > --- On Sun, 4/7/13, harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...>
        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is klemp a psychopath??
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Sunday, April 7, 2013, 7:08 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        > I have extensive experience in this field. I would recommend, for starters, that you read The Sociopath Next Door (Martha Stout, PhD). Sociopaths can make us doubt ourselves. They are experts at mimicking real emotions because they have had to learn this behavior from an early age in order to survive in a normal world. They continue to suck you back into a relationship after disagreements. They make you feel like "it must be me because he/she seems so sincere. Surely I must just be too sensitive or judgmental..." The only way to win against a psychopath is to completely disassociate from them without ever starting up again. It's all or nothing. They are parasitic to the nth degree.
        >
        > Further, sociopaths (which is the same thing as psychopaths) often marry narcissists or other sociopaths. Narcissists are similar but do have a degree of real emotionality.
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I myself right now, am dealing with a person whose ways and personality is causing me great concern because she may be a sociopath.  She was married to an individual who definitely was a sociopath.  From what I read. the victim of a sociopath once out of the relationship may act like the sociopath because the pain of what they endured causes them to strike at others and so they use the same techniques as the sociopath. 
        > >  
        > > In short this is an issue that concerns me greatly at this point.  I love this would be sociopath.  I bounce back and forth thinking she is a sociopath to thinking she is merely acting like one because of the long term exposure to one.  Her actions are painful and detrimental to others for sure.   I am having to create distance with this person because she won't allow healthy interactions with her and takes every opportunity to maim. 
        > >  
        > > All of you who have knowledge in this area, please give to me what you may know.  In this case, it is very hard for me to be objective. 
        > >
        > > --- On Fri, 4/5/13, noneckchains <eckchains@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > From: noneckchains <eckchains@>
        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is klemp a psychopath??
        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Friday, April 5, 2013, 8:07 AM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
        > >
        > > Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
        > >
        > > I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings. The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with. If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype. I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not doing so. It
        > > takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group like this.
        > >
        > > Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen, imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
        > >
        > > When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master, following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on. Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society, imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe later. :) )
        > >
        > > Non ;)
        > >
        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
        > > >
        > > > As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion, they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them to be ardent missionaries.
        > > >
        > > > Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance" and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time, followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training, and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile. What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new friends. But still.....
        > > > >
        > > > > I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a nice day in Nature.
        > > > >
        > > > > I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too. Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
        > > > >
        > > > > Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the idiocy.
        > > > >
        > > > > Non ;)
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the lies.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        Thanks Harrison, I have believed for sometime there must be something wrong with her but it is hard to face that when nothing you can remember happening in her
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 7 6:54 PM
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          Thanks Harrison, I have believed for sometime there must be something wrong with her but it is hard to face that when nothing you can remember happening in her developmental life could have created her ways. 
           
          Finally, it is hard to cut a loved one out of your life.  It helped me to realize that it really had nothing to do with me although she still looks and sounds like my child that I love.
           
          You mentioned the lies that break up relationships. I saw some of that too.
           
          Thanks again

          --- On Mon, 4/8/13, harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:

          From: harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is klemp a psychopath??
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, April 8, 2013, 12:12 AM

           
          A psychopath doesn't love. However, they can be attached to pets, things and people. They can display affection or kindness but it's not the same emotion that we feel because they do not have the ability to have this sort of feeling. I have known a couple of sociopaths who have seemed loving and I know one who shows affection to her dogs.

          A person does not "become" a psychopath through learning or psychological trauma. As I said, it's a deficit of the brain itself. And there are different personalities within the psychopathic model. Some are very passive and even lazy, while others are quite industrious. They can put this industry into revenge.

          They can be extremely manipulative, but when you don't play along they can go after you and make your life miserable, including lying to people close to you to create a rift between you. They are experts at ruining relationships. Instead of feeling one way or the other, their decisions are more calculated in favor of what benefits them. For this reason they can seem to have happy relationships. But this does, or would, change when the relationship no longer benefits them. In a normal relationship we try to support and offer love to another person even if it inconveniences us or we "get" nothing out of it. Not so with a psychopath. It's all about them.

          But you would also need to read up on narcissists as well because they are self centered in the same way and can be misidentified for psychopaths.

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thank you Harrison,
          > Would a sociopath love animals?  I mean all types.  She is especially fond of sea creatures like dolphins and manatees.  She is an undersea diver.  She has two kittens she takes loving care of.  Most people don't see anything wrong with what she does.  The truth is she is my daughter and I get a lot of abusive treatment from her.  I finally had to put a stop to her angry outbursts.  I told her that I was willing to talk to her about the problems with or with out a therapists.  I got no response.  Toward me, her actions still seemed to be to cause me pain while she still does not admit what she does is wrong.  Although, I am finding it hard to be objective at this time, she comes across like a heartless demon.  Although until about a year ago, we didn't have any problems between us, on several occasions she went out of her way to get even with people she thought wronged her.  Most people would just move on, she seems to get obsessed with
          > revenge.  When I asked why she wanted to hurt people, she simple said because she can.  She has appeared very fragile since she lost her mate and her job about the same time.  It certainly had nothing to do with me but I feel like I am the stand in for the people she can't get at for pay back.  Recently, I informed my children and my daughter in law that the doctor thought I had cancer.  My son and loving daughter in law have been with me every step of the way.   I simply got no response from my daughter and I have heard not a word from her at all although she does stay abreast of what is going on with the other two.  Not one word of comfort or support has she given and looking back, I don't think there were any times that she ever did offer support.  I will get the book and read it.  Any more insight you might have is appreciated.  I didn't intend to get into it because it is a family thing but I need to understand these things. 
          >  
          > Thanks again
          >
          > --- On Sun, 4/7/13, harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...>
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is klemp a psychopath??
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Sunday, April 7, 2013, 7:08 PM
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          > I have extensive experience in this field. I would recommend, for starters, that you read The Sociopath Next Door (Martha Stout, PhD). Sociopaths can make us doubt ourselves. They are experts at mimicking real emotions because they have had to learn this behavior from an early age in order to survive in a normal world. They continue to suck you back into a relationship after disagreements. They make you feel like "it must be me because he/she seems so sincere. Surely I must just be too sensitive or judgmental..." The only way to win against a psychopath is to completely disassociate from them without ever starting up again. It's all or nothing. They are parasitic to the nth degree.
          >
          > Further, sociopaths (which is the same thing as psychopaths) often marry narcissists or other sociopaths. Narcissists are similar but do have a degree of real emotionality.
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I myself right now, am dealing with a person whose ways and personality is causing me great concern because she may be a sociopath.  She was married to an individual who definitely was a sociopath.  From what I read. the victim of a sociopath once out of the relationship may act like the sociopath because the pain of what they endured causes them to strike at others and so they use the same techniques as the sociopath. 
          > >  
          > > In short this is an issue that concerns me greatly at this point.  I love this would be sociopath.  I bounce back and forth thinking she is a sociopath to thinking she is merely acting like one because of the long term exposure to one.  Her actions are painful and detrimental to others for sure.   I am having to create distance with this person because she won't allow healthy interactions with her and takes every opportunity to maim. 
          > >  
          > > All of you who have knowledge in this area, please give to me what you may know.  In this case, it is very hard for me to be objective. 
          > >
          > > --- On Fri, 4/5/13, noneckchains <eckchains@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > From: noneckchains <eckchains@>
          > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is klemp a psychopath??
          > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Friday, April 5, 2013, 8:07 AM
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >  
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
          > >
          > > Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
          > >
          > > I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings. The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with. If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype. I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not doing so. It
          > > takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group like this.
          > >
          > > Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen, imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
          > >
          > > When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master, following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on. Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society, imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe later. :) )
          > >
          > > Non ;)
          > >
          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
          > > >
          > > > As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion, they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them to be ardent missionaries.
          > > >
          > > > Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance" and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time, followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training, and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile. What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new friends. But still.....
          > > > >
          > > > > I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a nice day in Nature.
          > > > >
          > > > > I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too. Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
          > > > >
          > > > > Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the idiocy.
          > > > >
          > > > > Non ;)
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the lies.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >

        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, I m not really sure what kind of psychopathy Klemp does have. I m thinking it s a few overlapping personality disorders and mental illness. He was
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 7 9:17 PM
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            Hello All,
            I'm not really sure what
            kind of psychopathy Klemp
            does have. I'm thinking it's
            a few overlapping personality
            disorders and mental illness.
            He was locked up and then
            tricked the psychologist to
            get released early. And then
            he bragged about it!

            Does Klemp have Narcissism
            (NPD)? Yes! Borderline Personality
            Disorder? Maybe. Arrested
            Development? Definitely!
            Is he a liar? Absolutely!

            HK rationalizes it all away.
            He's getting what he wants...
            money, admiration, respect,
            and sex! Just kidding on that
            last one!

            And, Eckists are getting a
            New Age religion that fulfills
            their needs and feeds their
            egos with those glorious
            initiations. If you're weak-minded
            like most brain-washed religious
            fanatics Eckankar presents
            a good fit except for two things.
            One flaw is the Mahanta scam
            and the other is the Initiation
            scam.

            If these two definitions were
            rewritten where the Mahanta
            was everyone's OverSoul
            and the initiations were
            levels acquired within the
            Eckankar physical org.
            (and nothing "spiritual")
            then, this, would be a more
            acceptable form of insanity.

            But, I've known Eckists with
            Bi-polar disorder as well. In
            actuality, Eckists are just as
            screwed up as any religious
            or political fanatic.

            And, most Eckists buy into
            the New Age mumbo jumbo
            of one sort or another and
            much of this came from Eckankar's
            stay in California with Twitchell,
            Gross, and Klemp.

            Eckists have no special abilities
            or protection than any other
            person. They imagine they do
            but it's all wishful thinking. Yet,
            they pretend they are special
            and will see the Mahanta when
            they "translate" (their page in
            history). The supposed soul
            travel and dream travel experiences
            are supposed to validate this,
            but Christianity has more of
            the same kind and even greater
            experiences (miracles) than
            Eckists.... even healing!

            Did you ever see Klemp heal
            a blind man as 2nd Initiate
            Jesus did? No! Of course not!
            Klemp's a fraud!

            And, did you know that EMF
            affects H.I.s more than lower
            initiates (chelas) because the
            EK H.I. has "finer vibrations."
            LOL! No, it's true! This is what
            they actually believe because
            they read it and it was told to
            them. How gullible, delusional,
            and arrogant!

            I was thinking about why H.I.s
            tend to be more fearful of
            computers and I realized this
            was why... EMF and the finer
            vibration story. Then, again,
            many H.I.s are older and would
            fear computers anyway! They're
            technologically challenged.

            Prometheus

            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            Thanks Harrison, I have believed for sometime there must be something wrong with
            her but it is hard to face that when nothing you can remember happening in her
            developmental life could have created her ways.

            Finally, it is hard to cut a loved one out of your life. It helped me to
            realize that it really had nothing to do with me although she still looks and
            sounds like my child that I love.

            You mentioned the lies that break up relationships. I saw some of that too.

            Thanks again

            harrisonferrel wrote:

            A psychopath doesn't love. However, they can be attached to pets, things and
            people. They can display affection or kindness but it's not the same emotion
            that we feel because they do not have the ability to have this sort of feeling.
            I have known a couple of sociopaths who have seemed loving and I know one who
            shows affection to her dogs.

            A person does not "become" a psychopath through learning or psychological
            trauma. As I said, it's a deficit of the brain itself. And there are different
            personalities within the psychopathic model. Some are very passive and even
            lazy, while others are quite industrious. They can put this industry into
            revenge.

            They can be extremely manipulative, but when you don't play along they can go
            after you and make your life miserable, including lying to people close to you
            to create a rift between you. They are experts at ruining relationships. Instead
            of feeling one way or the other, their decisions are more calculated in favor of
            what benefits them. For this reason they can seem to have happy relationships.
            But this does, or would, change when the relationship no longer benefits them.
            In a normal relationship we try to support and offer love to another person even
            if it inconveniences us or we "get" nothing out of it. Not so with a psychopath.
            It's all about them.

            But you would also need to read up on narcissists as well because they are self
            centered in the same way and can be misidentified for psychopaths.

            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            >
            > Thank you Harrison,
            > Would a sociopath love animals? I mean all types. She is especially fond of
            sea creatures like dolphins and manatees. She is an undersea diver. She has two
            kittens she takes loving care of. Most people don't see anything wrong with what
            she does. The truth is she is my daughter and I get a lot of abusive treatment
            from her. I finally had to put a stop to her angry outbursts. I told her that I
            was willing to talk to her about the problems with or with out a therapists. I
            got no response. Toward me, her actions still seemed to be to cause me pain
            while she still does not admit what she does is wrong. Although, I am finding it
            hard to be objective at this time, she comes across like a heartless demon.
            Although until about a year ago, we didn't have any problems between us, on
            several occasions she went out of her way to get even with people she thought
            wronged her. Most people would just move on, she seems to get obsessed with
            revenge. When I asked why she wanted to hurt people, she simple said because she
            can. She has appeared very fragile since she lost her mate and her job about
            the same time. It certainly had nothing to do with me but I feel like I am the
            stand in for the people she can't get at for pay back. Recently, I informed my
            children and my daughter in law that the doctor thought I had cancer. My son
            and loving daughter in law have been with me every step of the way. I simply
            got no response from my daughter and I have heard not a word from her at all
            although she does stay abreast of what is going on with the other two. Not one
            word of comfort or support has she given and looking back, I don't think there
            were any times that she ever did offer support. I will get the book and read
            it. Any more insight you might have is appreciated. I didn't intend to get
            into it because it is a family thing but I need to understand these things.
            >
            > Thanks again
            >
            harrisonferrel wrote:

            > I have extensive experience in this field. I would recommend, for starters,
            that you read The Sociopath Next Door (Martha Stout, PhD). Sociopaths can make
            us doubt ourselves. They are experts at mimicking real emotions because they
            have had to learn this behavior from an early age in order to survive in a
            normal world. They continue to suck you back into a relationship after
            disagreements. They make you feel like "it must be me because he/she seems so
            sincere. Surely I must just be too sensitive or judgmental..." The only way to
            win against a psychopath is to completely disassociate from them without ever
            starting up again. It's all or nothing. They are parasitic to the nth degree.
            >
            > Further, sociopaths (which is the same thing as psychopaths) often marry
            narcissists or other sociopaths. Narcissists are similar but do have a degree of
            real emotionality.
            >
            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            > >
            > > I myself right now, am dealing with a person whose ways and personality is
            causing me great concern because she may be a sociopath. She was married to an
            individual who definitely was a sociopath. From what I read. the victim of a
            sociopath once out of the relationship may act like the sociopath because the
            pain of what they endured causes them to strike at others and so they use the
            same techniques as the sociopath.

            > > In short this is an issue that concerns me greatly at this point. I love
            this would be sociopath. I bounce back and forth thinking she is a sociopath to
            thinking she is merely acting like one because of the long term exposure to one.
            Her actions are painful and detrimental to others for sure. I am having to
            create distance with this person because she won't allow healthy interactions
            with her and takes every opportunity to maim.
            > >
            > > All of you who have knowledge in this area, please give to me what you may
            know. In this case, it is very hard for me to be objective.
            > >
            eckchains@> wrote:

            > >
            Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at
            some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable
            at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
            > >
            Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm
            not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some
            religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or
            evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a
            Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from
            birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
            > >
            I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice
            Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings.
            The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for
            example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering
            Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that
            is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in
            this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with.
            If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good
            example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype.
            I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with
            being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you
            followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not
            doing so. It takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that
            mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group
            like this.
            > >
            Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen,
            imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't
            hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit
            to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
            > >
            When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over
            time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master,
            following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on.
            Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who
            knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this
            problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very
            profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The
            same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than
            it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society,
            imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the
            first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe
            later. :) )
            > >
            > > Non ;)
            > >
            <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
            > > >
            I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
            > > >
            As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with
            his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion,
            they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them
            to be ardent missionaries.
            > > >
            Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths
            suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It
            is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that
            both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            <eckchains@> wrote:
            > > > >
            Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance"
            and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for
            personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time,
            followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training,
            and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile.
            What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as
            pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can
            be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new
            friends. But still.....
            > > > >
            I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several
            people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the
            word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits
            and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a
            nice day in Nature.
            > > > >
            I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around
            about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my
            sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just
            joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he
            said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too.
            Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet
            Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand
            and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten
            seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of
            Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
            > > > >
            Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter
            experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even
            pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of
            religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the
            idiocy.
            > > > >
            > > > > Non ;)
            > > > >
            "harrisonferrel" wrote:
            > > > > >
            Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking
            to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with
            people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across
            the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the
            lies.
            > > > > >
            When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information
            on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what
            it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough
            to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me
            only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the
            cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp
            was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you
            live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
          • harrisonferrel
            Well said, as usual. It s not possible to diagnose klemp, or anyone, from afar. However, he does exhibit behavior that looks like narcissism or psychopathy.
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 8 6:26 AM
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              Well said, as usual.

              It's not possible to diagnose klemp, or anyone, from afar. However, he does exhibit behavior that looks like narcissism or psychopathy. And you're right about his mental problems and how he bragged about them. This should have been a BIG RED FLAG for all of us. This just goes to show how we could all rationalize away what was an obvious psychological problem right before our eyes. Eckists, like other religious zealots, are quick to dismiss or forgive the leader's transgressions and faults.

              Also, yes to the fact that klemp is a fraud in the fine tradition of twitch and gross. Unless you're a complete delusional psychotic then you know you are a fraud. But my contention is that, since klemp has carried on this fraud for so very long, he must be fully aware of his crimes.

              If you apply basic philosophy and psychology to eckankar it quickly falls apart. Add a little mythology and common sense and you see right through the scam. I can say this in the least — eckankar forced me to delve into these studies so I could separate truth from fiction and manipulation.

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello All,
              > I'm not really sure what
              > kind of psychopathy Klemp
              > does have. I'm thinking it's
              > a few overlapping personality
              > disorders and mental illness.
              > He was locked up and then
              > tricked the psychologist to
              > get released early. And then
              > he bragged about it!
              >
              > Does Klemp have Narcissism
              > (NPD)? Yes! Borderline Personality
              > Disorder? Maybe. Arrested
              > Development? Definitely!
              > Is he a liar? Absolutely!
              >
              > HK rationalizes it all away.
              > He's getting what he wants...
              > money, admiration, respect,
              > and sex! Just kidding on that
              > last one!
              >
              > And, Eckists are getting a
              > New Age religion that fulfills
              > their needs and feeds their
              > egos with those glorious
              > initiations. If you're weak-minded
              > like most brain-washed religious
              > fanatics Eckankar presents
              > a good fit except for two things.
              > One flaw is the Mahanta scam
              > and the other is the Initiation
              > scam.
              >
              > If these two definitions were
              > rewritten where the Mahanta
              > was everyone's OverSoul
              > and the initiations were
              > levels acquired within the
              > Eckankar physical org.
              > (and nothing "spiritual")
              > then, this, would be a more
              > acceptable form of insanity.
              >
              > But, I've known Eckists with
              > Bi-polar disorder as well. In
              > actuality, Eckists are just as
              > screwed up as any religious
              > or political fanatic.
              >
              > And, most Eckists buy into
              > the New Age mumbo jumbo
              > of one sort or another and
              > much of this came from Eckankar's
              > stay in California with Twitchell,
              > Gross, and Klemp.
              >
              > Eckists have no special abilities
              > or protection than any other
              > person. They imagine they do
              > but it's all wishful thinking. Yet,
              > they pretend they are special
              > and will see the Mahanta when
              > they "translate" (their page in
              > history). The supposed soul
              > travel and dream travel experiences
              > are supposed to validate this,
              > but Christianity has more of
              > the same kind and even greater
              > experiences (miracles) than
              > Eckists.... even healing!
              >
              > Did you ever see Klemp heal
              > a blind man as 2nd Initiate
              > Jesus did? No! Of course not!
              > Klemp's a fraud!
              >
              > And, did you know that EMF
              > affects H.I.s more than lower
              > initiates (chelas) because the
              > EK H.I. has "finer vibrations."
              > LOL! No, it's true! This is what
              > they actually believe because
              > they read it and it was told to
              > them. How gullible, delusional,
              > and arrogant!
              >
              > I was thinking about why H.I.s
              > tend to be more fearful of
              > computers and I realized this
              > was why... EMF and the finer
              > vibration story. Then, again,
              > many H.I.s are older and would
              > fear computers anyway! They're
              > technologically challenged.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > Thanks Harrison, I have believed for sometime there must be something wrong with
              > her but it is hard to face that when nothing you can remember happening in her
              > developmental life could have created her ways.
              >
              > Finally, it is hard to cut a loved one out of your life. It helped me to
              > realize that it really had nothing to do with me although she still looks and
              > sounds like my child that I love.
              >
              > You mentioned the lies that break up relationships. I saw some of that too.
              >
              > Thanks again
              >
              > harrisonferrel wrote:
              >
              > A psychopath doesn't love. However, they can be attached to pets, things and
              > people. They can display affection or kindness but it's not the same emotion
              > that we feel because they do not have the ability to have this sort of feeling.
              > I have known a couple of sociopaths who have seemed loving and I know one who
              > shows affection to her dogs.
              >
              > A person does not "become" a psychopath through learning or psychological
              > trauma. As I said, it's a deficit of the brain itself. And there are different
              > personalities within the psychopathic model. Some are very passive and even
              > lazy, while others are quite industrious. They can put this industry into
              > revenge.
              >
              > They can be extremely manipulative, but when you don't play along they can go
              > after you and make your life miserable, including lying to people close to you
              > to create a rift between you. They are experts at ruining relationships. Instead
              > of feeling one way or the other, their decisions are more calculated in favor of
              > what benefits them. For this reason they can seem to have happy relationships.
              > But this does, or would, change when the relationship no longer benefits them.
              > In a normal relationship we try to support and offer love to another person even
              > if it inconveniences us or we "get" nothing out of it. Not so with a psychopath.
              > It's all about them.
              >
              > But you would also need to read up on narcissists as well because they are self
              > centered in the same way and can be misidentified for psychopaths.
              >
              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > >
              > > Thank you Harrison,
              > > Would a sociopath love animals? I mean all types. She is especially fond of
              > sea creatures like dolphins and manatees. She is an undersea diver. She has two
              > kittens she takes loving care of. Most people don't see anything wrong with what
              > she does. The truth is she is my daughter and I get a lot of abusive treatment
              > from her. I finally had to put a stop to her angry outbursts. I told her that I
              > was willing to talk to her about the problems with or with out a therapists. I
              > got no response. Toward me, her actions still seemed to be to cause me pain
              > while she still does not admit what she does is wrong. Although, I am finding it
              > hard to be objective at this time, she comes across like a heartless demon.
              > Although until about a year ago, we didn't have any problems between us, on
              > several occasions she went out of her way to get even with people she thought
              > wronged her. Most people would just move on, she seems to get obsessed with
              > revenge. When I asked why she wanted to hurt people, she simple said because she
              > can. She has appeared very fragile since she lost her mate and her job about
              > the same time. It certainly had nothing to do with me but I feel like I am the
              > stand in for the people she can't get at for pay back. Recently, I informed my
              > children and my daughter in law that the doctor thought I had cancer. My son
              > and loving daughter in law have been with me every step of the way. I simply
              > got no response from my daughter and I have heard not a word from her at all
              > although she does stay abreast of what is going on with the other two. Not one
              > word of comfort or support has she given and looking back, I don't think there
              > were any times that she ever did offer support. I will get the book and read
              > it. Any more insight you might have is appreciated. I didn't intend to get
              > into it because it is a family thing but I need to understand these things.
              > >
              > > Thanks again
              > >
              > harrisonferrel wrote:
              >
              > > I have extensive experience in this field. I would recommend, for starters,
              > that you read The Sociopath Next Door (Martha Stout, PhD). Sociopaths can make
              > us doubt ourselves. They are experts at mimicking real emotions because they
              > have had to learn this behavior from an early age in order to survive in a
              > normal world. They continue to suck you back into a relationship after
              > disagreements. They make you feel like "it must be me because he/she seems so
              > sincere. Surely I must just be too sensitive or judgmental..." The only way to
              > win against a psychopath is to completely disassociate from them without ever
              > starting up again. It's all or nothing. They are parasitic to the nth degree.
              > >
              > > Further, sociopaths (which is the same thing as psychopaths) often marry
              > narcissists or other sociopaths. Narcissists are similar but do have a degree of
              > real emotionality.
              > >
              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I myself right now, am dealing with a person whose ways and personality is
              > causing me great concern because she may be a sociopath. She was married to an
              > individual who definitely was a sociopath. From what I read. the victim of a
              > sociopath once out of the relationship may act like the sociopath because the
              > pain of what they endured causes them to strike at others and so they use the
              > same techniques as the sociopath.
              >
              > > > In short this is an issue that concerns me greatly at this point. I love
              > this would be sociopath. I bounce back and forth thinking she is a sociopath to
              > thinking she is merely acting like one because of the long term exposure to one.
              > Her actions are painful and detrimental to others for sure. I am having to
              > create distance with this person because she won't allow healthy interactions
              > with her and takes every opportunity to maim.
              > > >
              > > > All of you who have knowledge in this area, please give to me what you may
              > know. In this case, it is very hard for me to be objective.
              > > >
              > eckchains@> wrote:
              >
              > > >
              > Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at
              > some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable
              > at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
              > > >
              > Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm
              > not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some
              > religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or
              > evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a
              > Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from
              > birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
              > > >
              > I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice
              > Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings.
              > The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for
              > example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering
              > Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that
              > is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in
              > this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with.
              > If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good
              > example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype.
              > I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with
              > being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you
              > followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not
              > doing so. It takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that
              > mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group
              > like this.
              > > >
              > Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen,
              > imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't
              > hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit
              > to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
              > > >
              > When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over
              > time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master,
              > following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on.
              > Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who
              > knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this
              > problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very
              > profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The
              > same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than
              > it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society,
              > imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the
              > first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe
              > later. :) )
              > > >
              > > > Non ;)
              > > >
              > <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
              > > > >
              > As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with
              > his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion,
              > they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them
              > to be ardent missionaries.
              > > > >
              > Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths
              > suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It
              > is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that
              > both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > <eckchains@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance"
              > and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for
              > personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time,
              > followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training,
              > and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile.
              > What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as
              > pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can
              > be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new
              > friends. But still.....
              > > > > >
              > I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several
              > people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the
              > word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits
              > and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a
              > nice day in Nature.
              > > > > >
              > I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around
              > about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my
              > sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just
              > joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he
              > said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too.
              > Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet
              > Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand
              > and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten
              > seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of
              > Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
              > > > > >
              > Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter
              > experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even
              > pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of
              > religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the
              > idiocy.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Non ;)
              > > > > >
              > "harrisonferrel" wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking
              > to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with
              > people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across
              > the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the
              > lies.
              > > > > > >
              > When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information
              > on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what
              > it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough
              > to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me
              > only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the
              > cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp
              > was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you
              > live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
              >
            • noneckchains
              harrisonferrel, Klemp is most likely a Sociopath etc. and I despise him and the whole eckankar Cult. The Living Eck Master is to me obviously Authoritarian
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 10 6:00 AM
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                harrisonferrel,

                Klemp is most likely a Sociopath etc. and I despise him and the whole eckankar Cult. "The Living Eck Master" is to me obviously Authoritarian and also, I recall that along with the books I read initially, that the first discourse was very much written in a style that was quite grandiose and stated that eckankar was THE one and only most direct path to the Godhead, along with being able to control the weather, soul travel, out of body experiences and so on. It was recommended that you literally memorize the discourses, and to even avoid reading other books. The Truth was here, why go elsewhere. I don't know how you could have stayed a member for 12 years, while ignoring this, just to find out more about OBE's.
                That said:

                Actually, it does seem that in this post you are being insulting, condescending and strangely displaying an authoritarian form of Science. Science as I understand it is not based on absolute assertions. Every once and a while, I have come across David Lane's discussion on the subject of Science and if anything, it is quite the opposite. It starts with the assumption Of "I don't know" to quite literally guessing, hypothesizing, coming up with a theory, testing it and changing it and always being open to more change and peer review and so on. You state that a Sociopath is always a result of a defect in the brain and has nothing to do with experiences whatsoever, end of story, and then you proceed to give others advise and make diagnosis as if you are an expert based on being a life long studier of Psychology, whatever that means. Calling me ignorant is an odd use of the word, in this context.

                I am coming from a Social Psychology point of view which is very experimental, Neuroscience and Cultural influences. Here are some quotes and links that imo add to the richness of the discussion and also show that stress and child abuse/neglect, aculturation (sometimes war) does/can have a high probability of causing sociopathic behavior (and neurological impact), and other disorders, not just in individuals, but also in Society at large:

                http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=10a

                Two thousand years ago, the people of ancient Rome cheered enthusiastically as they watched gladiators fight each other to the death, and saw innocent persons torn to pieces by wild beasts. In that same era, Roman teachers practiced corporal punishment on a daily basis. The Roman schools were stocked with a variety of instruments used to beat children, including the ferula (a bundle of switches made from birch branches), the scutia (a whip made of leather straps), and the flagellum (a whip made of straps from ox-hide, the hardest available leather).

                Although feeding slaves to lions and beating children in schools were acceptable practices to the mass of Roman citizens, occasionally a voice of protest cried out. The rhetorician Quintilian (C.E. 35 to C.E. 95) wrote: "I am entirely against the practice of corporal punishment in education, although it is widespread ... In the first place it is disgusting and slavish treatment, which would certainly be regarded as an insult if it were not inflicted on boys. Further, the pupil whose mind is too coarse to be improved by censure will become as indifferent to blows as the worst of slaves. Finally, these chastisements would be entirely unnecessary if the teachers were patient and helpful."

                http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130407090835.htm

                Puberty is another sensitive time of development and stress experienced at this time can also be involved in programming adult mood disorders. Prof Holmes and her colleagues have found evidence from imaging studies in rats that stress in early teenage years could affect mood and emotional behaviour via changes in the brain's neural networks associated with emotional processing.

                The researchers used fMRI (Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging) to see which pathways in the brain were affected when stressed, peripubertal rats responded to a specific learned task. [1].

                Prof Holmes will say: "We showed that in stressed 'teenage' rats, the part of the brain region involved in emotion and fear (known as amygdala) was activated in an exaggerated fashion when compared to controls. The results from this study clearly showed that altered emotional processing occurs in the amygdala in response to stress during this crucial period of development."

                Einstein was a Scientist who came up with theories that opened the door to new research, but much of it was proven after the theorizing. The theory of Psychopaths is important, but I'm not buying all of it as you describe it. And believe me I have had too many experiences in real life with individuals who were pathological liars and manipulators. The ones I knew on a more personal level, definitely had childhood trauma, either from bad parenting or general cultural influences. And we haven't even talked about Bowlby's Attachment Theory yet.

                Non ;)



                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:
                >
                > You say you think there are different levels of sociopath. However, this is not a fact; it's speculation based on an opinion, but not science. For a start you can read Martha Stout's book The Sociopath Next Door, then read Robert Hare's work on the subject. There are also good articles written by psychologists online. In fact, Hare has a website with a lot of good information.
                >
                > I don't want to be insulting by saying that your opinion is ignorant, but it is not based on science or research. Please read up on sociopathy because you will see how well the eck leaders, including twitchell and klemp fit into this profile.
                >
                >
                > Sociopathy is a dysfunction of a portion of the amygdala in the brain. You would have to read about this to fully understand. It is not a psychological problem in the same way as neuroses, etc. If you study what sociopathy is, then you'd understand that this is not a matter of degrees but a matter of absence of a brain function. Certainly there are different manifestations, but you cannot be partially sociopathic. You either have certain traits or you do not. One of them is a lack of remorse and sense of guilt.
                >
                > Also, I didn't join eckankar for any authoritarian purpose, as you suggest. Instead, I joined because of a curiosity about out of body experiences. In fact, when I first went to an eck center I thought Twitchell was still the leader. I read two of his books and thought I was onto something. I did not join to become a better person or enlightened being or any of that shit. It was just to further my interest in out of body experiences. When I discovered that Klemp was in charge and listened to what he had to say it rubbed me the wrong way. Still I thought that was my deficiency and I hung in for 12 years but never got involved in the social aspect or the organization.
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
                > >
                > > Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
                > >
                > > I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings. The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with. If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype. I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not doing so. It takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group like this.
                > >
                > > Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen, imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
                > >
                > > When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master, following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on. Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society, imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe later. :) )
                > >
                > > Non ;)
                > >
                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
                > > >
                > > > As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion, they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them to be ardent missionaries.
                > > >
                > > > Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance" and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time, followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training, and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile. What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new friends. But still.....
                > > > >
                > > > > I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a nice day in Nature.
                > > > >
                > > > > I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too. Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
                > > > >
                > > > > Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the idiocy.
                > > > >
                > > > > Non ;)
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the lies.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • harrisonferrel
                First, if I m being insulting, I apologize. Not my intent. Still, I can t agree that I was ever drawn to authoritarianism, or were several people I know.
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 10 1:15 PM
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                  First, if I'm being insulting, I apologize. Not my intent. Still, I can't agree that I was ever drawn to authoritarianism, or were several people I know.

                  Regarding sociopathy, you'd have to study this to understand my point, I guess, in stating that you can't be "in training" because it's a brain issue. You are either missing a particular function of the brain or you are not. Sociopathy is not a psychological condition, it is physical. I'm not sure what you are reading to draw your conclusions, but because you state "I think," it leads me to believe that you are not well versed in this problem. Also, it is indeed possible to detect a malfunction or non-function regarding the area of the brain in the amygdala that identifies what makes a sociopath. Certainly there are other issues that can make someone a liar, thief or evil person, not only sociopathy. I do understand what you say when you write that people can become more and more like the sociopath they are following, picking up many of their traits. I agree. But this cannot make them true sociopaths.

                  People are not born hating, but many are born sociopaths. Certainly, their upbringing and societal constraints, etc. can determine the degree to which their sociopathy affects others.

                  I do appreciate your comments.


                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
                  >
                  > Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
                  >
                  > I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings. The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with. If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype. I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not doing so. It takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group like this.
                  >
                  > Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen, imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
                  >
                  > When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master, following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on. Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society, imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe later. :) )
                  >
                  > Non ;)
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
                  > >
                  > > As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion, they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them to be ardent missionaries.
                  > >
                  > > Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance" and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time, followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training, and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile. What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new friends. But still.....
                  > > >
                  > > > I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a nice day in Nature.
                  > > >
                  > > > I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too. Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
                  > > >
                  > > > Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the idiocy.
                  > > >
                  > > > Non ;)
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the lies.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • noneckchains
                  harrisonferrel, Since my post was completely left out and has some references for you to consider(and maybe others), I guess I ll have to repost it. That I may
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 10 6:37 PM
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                    harrisonferrel,

                    Since my post was completely left out and has some references for you to consider(and maybe others), I guess I'll have to repost it. That I may say "I think..." just means that I don't always feel the need to say "I Know...". Saying "I Know" all the time is kind of arrogant, imho. Also, joining an Authoritarian Cult like eckankar and declaring that you didn't believe in the Authoritarian part is a little like saying that you support a Dictator, but don't believe there should be Dictators. It doesn't make any sense. Without "The Living Eck Master", there is no eckankar. Cults have Authoritarian Leaders, Prophets, Masters, Supreme this or that,etc..

                    The Scientific Method does not have Authoritarian Leaders, or make Absolute Assertions. If it does, then whatever is going on is diverging from Science. Anything is open to questioning and ongoing discovery and change. Unfortunately, even in the Scientific world, sometimes personality worship can occur, or beliefs become set in stone and so on....even false proofs and claims occur.

                    And I think you may be ignoring research on brain neuroplasticity, as well as other factors, Social Psychology, Alice Miller's research on the effects of child abuse and neglect, Sociology.....

                    Anyway here's my post that you left out:

                    harrisonferrel,

                    Klemp is most likely a Sociopath etc. and I despise him and the whole eckankar
                    Cult. "The Living Eck Master" is to me obviously Authoritarian and also, I
                    recall that along with the books I read initially, that the first discourse was
                    very much written in a style that was quite grandiose and stated that eckankar
                    was THE one and only most direct path to the Godhead, along with being able to
                    control the weather, soul travel, out of body experiences and so on. It was
                    recommended that you literally memorize the discourses, and to even avoid
                    reading other books. The Truth was here, why go elsewhere. I don't know how you
                    could have stayed a member for 12 years, while ignoring this, just to find out
                    more about OBE's.
                    That said:

                    Actually, it does seem that in this post you are being insulting, condescending
                    and strangely displaying an authoritarian form of Science. Science as I
                    understand it is not based on absolute assertions. Every once and a while, I
                    have come across David Lane's discussion on the subject of Science and if
                    anything, it is quite the opposite. It starts with the assumption Of "I don't
                    know" to quite literally guessing, hypothesizing, coming up with a theory,
                    testing it and changing it and always being open to more change and peer review
                    and so on. You state that a Sociopath is always a result of a defect in the
                    brain and has nothing to do with experiences whatsoever, end of story, and then
                    you proceed to give others advise and make diagnosis as if you are an expert
                    based on being a life long studier of Psychology, whatever that means. Calling
                    me ignorant is an odd use of the word, in this context.

                    I am coming from a Social Psychology point of view which is very experimental,
                    Neuroscience and Cultural influences. Here are some quotes and links that imo
                    add to the richness of the discussion and also show that stress and child
                    abuse/neglect, aculturation (sometimes war) does/can have a high probability of
                    causing sociopathic behavior (and neurological impact), and other disorders, not
                    just in individuals, but also in Society at large:

                    http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=10a

                    Two thousand years ago, the people of ancient Rome cheered enthusiastically as
                    they watched gladiators fight each other to the death, and saw innocent persons
                    torn to pieces by wild beasts. In that same era, Roman teachers practiced
                    corporal punishment on a daily basis. The Roman schools were stocked with a
                    variety of instruments used to beat children, including the ferula (a bundle of
                    switches made from birch branches), the scutia (a whip made of leather straps),
                    and the flagellum (a whip made of straps from ox-hide, the hardest available
                    leather).

                    Although feeding slaves to lions and beating children in schools were acceptable
                    practices to the mass of Roman citizens, occasionally a voice of protest cried
                    out. The rhetorician Quintilian (C.E. 35 to C.E. 95) wrote: "I am entirely
                    against the practice of corporal punishment in education, although it is
                    widespread ... In the first place it is disgusting and slavish treatment, which
                    would certainly be regarded as an insult if it were not inflicted on boys.
                    Further, the pupil whose mind is too coarse to be improved by censure will
                    become as indifferent to blows as the worst of slaves. Finally, these
                    chastisements would be entirely unnecessary if the teachers were patient and
                    helpful."

                    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130407090835.htm

                    Puberty is another sensitive time of development and stress experienced at this
                    time can also be involved in programming adult mood disorders. Prof Holmes and
                    her colleagues have found evidence from imaging studies in rats that stress in
                    early teenage years could affect mood and emotional behaviour via changes in the
                    brain's neural networks associated with emotional processing.

                    The researchers used fMRI (Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging) to see which
                    pathways in the brain were affected when stressed, peripubertal rats responded
                    to a specific learned task. [1].

                    Prof Holmes will say: "We showed that in stressed 'teenage' rats, the part of
                    the brain region involved in emotion and fear (known as amygdala) was activated
                    in an exaggerated fashion when compared to controls. The results from this study
                    clearly showed that altered emotional processing occurs in the amygdala in
                    response to stress during this crucial period of development."

                    Einstein was a Scientist who came up with theories that opened the door to new
                    research, but much of it was proven after the theorizing. The theory of
                    Psychopaths is important, but I'm not buying all of it as you describe it. And
                    believe me I have had too many experiences in real life with individuals who
                    were pathological liars and manipulators. The ones I knew on a more personal
                    level, definitely had childhood trauma, either from bad parenting or general
                    cultural influences. And we haven't even talked about Bowlby's Attachment Theory
                    yet.

                    Non ;)



                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel"
                    <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > You say you think there are different levels of sociopath. However, this is
                    not a fact; it's speculation based on an opinion, but not science. For a start
                    you can read Martha Stout's book The Sociopath Next Door, then read Robert
                    Hare's work on the subject. There are also good articles written by
                    psychologists online. In fact, Hare has a website with a lot of good
                    information.
                    >
                    > I don't want to be insulting by saying that your opinion is ignorant, but it
                    is not based on science or research. Please read up on sociopathy because you
                    will see how well the eck leaders, including twitchell and klemp fit into this
                    profile.
                    >
                    >
                    > Sociopathy is a dysfunction of a portion of the amygdala in the brain. You
                    would have to read about this to fully understand. It is not a psychological
                    problem in the same way as neuroses, etc. If you study what sociopathy is, then
                    you'd understand that this is not a matter of degrees but a matter of absence of
                    a brain function. Certainly there are different manifestations, but you cannot
                    be partially sociopathic. You either have certain traits or you do not. One of
                    them is a lack of remorse and sense of guilt.
                    >
                    > Also, I didn't join eckankar for any authoritarian purpose, as you suggest.
                    Instead, I joined because of a curiosity about out of body experiences. In fact,
                    when I first went to an eck center I thought Twitchell was still the leader. I
                    read two of his books and thought I was onto something. I did not join to become
                    a better person or enlightened being or any of that shit. It was just to further
                    my interest in out of body experiences. When I discovered that Klemp was in
                    charge and listened to what he had to say it rubbed me the wrong way. Still I
                    thought that was my deficiency and I hung in for 12 years but never got involved
                    in the social aspect or the organization.

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > First, if I'm being insulting, I apologize. Not my intent. Still, I can't agree that I was ever drawn to authoritarianism, or were several people I know.
                    >
                    > Regarding sociopathy, you'd have to study this to understand my point, I guess, in stating that you can't be "in training" because it's a brain issue. You are either missing a particular function of the brain or you are not. Sociopathy is not a psychological condition, it is physical. I'm not sure what you are reading to draw your conclusions, but because you state "I think," it leads me to believe that you are not well versed in this problem. Also, it is indeed possible to detect a malfunction or non-function regarding the area of the brain in the amygdala that identifies what makes a sociopath. Certainly there are other issues that can make someone a liar, thief or evil person, not only sociopathy. I do understand what you say when you write that people can become more and more like the sociopath they are following, picking up many of their traits. I agree. But this cannot make them true sociopaths.
                    >
                    > People are not born hating, but many are born sociopaths. Certainly, their upbringing and societal constraints, etc. can determine the degree to which their sociopathy affects others.
                    >
                    > I do appreciate your comments.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Eckankar is Authoritarian, and anyone who joins, is drawn to Authoritarianism at some level. All of us who joined, did this for a reason that seemed acceptable at the time, even if we only joined for a short period.
                    > >
                    > > Oh, I don't know, it seems that there are different levels of "Sociopath". I'm not convinced that it is congenital. That would almost be the same as some religious convictions that claim that there is such a thing as a Satan baby, or evil spirits, or the "bad seed". I do not know of an MRI that can identify a Sociopath/Psychopath and that proves that there is a Psychopathic brain from birth, that predicts "natural born killers", etc..
                    > >
                    > > I think it comes from Cultural influences and how children are mistreated. Alice Miller was able to prove this to a certain extent in her research and writings. The plasticity of the brain may be a factor. The Nazis came to power, for example, because beating children was common and accepted, as well as revering Authority as a great virtue. And yes, the longer one stays in a situation that is like a gang of thugs, the more they become like the leader and that group, in this case, klemp, gross, twitchell. Be careful who you choose to hang out with. If they are bad types, it will start to rub off on you. (tea baggers are a good example) Free thinking isn't really encouraged in the USA, in spite of the hype. I'm pretty sure that my involvement in eckankar and other Cults had to do with being raised to admire authority and believe that you were a good person if you followed the leader, like a good soldier, and also along with the fear of not doing so. It takes dedication, compassion, and study to break away from that mind set, imo. Also, it may take Psychotherapy, or at the very least a group like this.
                    > >
                    > > Some people do actually change their bad ways. It is possible and can happen, imo. I don't think babies are born hating. At the same time, for some, don't hold your breath. I know of some eckists who sadly will never change, or admit to having done anything wrong, and will continue on 'til the day they die.
                    > >
                    > > When I say "sociopath in training", I am just referring to what happens over time. The eckist starts to act more and more like the living eck master, following orders, giving orders, preaching lies, harming others, and so on. Social Psychology is a good source for understanding how this happens. Who knows, with brain plasticity there are probably changes. So I don't see this problem as either/or or black and white thinking. Nurture, imo can have a very profound effect on even the most difficult child, if done in the right way. The same may also be true of adults. Our prison system creates more criminals than it reforms. Unfortunately, we still live in a very not compassionate society, imo. If we did, perhaps there would not be so many gullible followers in the first place. (Why? well I don't want to get into a dissertation right now. Maybe later. :) )
                    > >
                    > > Non ;)
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I think you hit the nail on the head with a couple of things you wrote.
                    > > >
                    > > > As a lifelong student of psychology, I know that a person identifies with his/her choices. When people choose to follow eck or any other cult or religion, they have made a statement that involves a commitment of ego. This compels them to be ardent missionaries.
                    > > >
                    > > > Regarding sociopaths in training, there is no such thing. Sociopaths/psychopaths suffer from a brain malfunction so they cannot be created through experience. It is primarily a physiological problem and not a psychological one. It seems that both Twitchell and Klemp could be sociopaths, as are many cult leaders.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "noneckchains" <eckchains@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yes, I agree. It is one thing to be a follower engaged in "willful ignorance" and to be the one willfully and knowingly telling lies to deceive others for personal gain. One is a true Sociopath with no conscience, but at the same time, followers who perpetuate those lies for decades are just Sociopaths in training, and depending on their level of involvement, their actions may be just as vile. What their level of delusion is, I don't know. Perhaps it is just as simple as pride, in the sense of not being able to admit that they made a mistake. It can be more difficult for some to walk away and think for themselves and find new friends. But still.....
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I know that religion in general is a very slippery slope. I was asked by several people recently if I had a good Easter. Since I had been alerted to where the word Easter actually comes from, the Goddess Ishtar of fertility with rabbits and eggs, etc., I got a lot of worried looks when I just said that I enjoyed a nice day in Nature.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I also had a really cool conversation with a teenager who was joking around about having a tarantula on his back. I saw something, and touched it with my sunglasses thinking it was fake, but a leg moved. He admitted he was just joking, but that the Tarantula was real and his pet. I asked if it bites and he said no, holding it on the palm of his hand. He said I could hold it too. Suddenly, I found myself realizing that this Tarantula, that he got from a Pet Store, was not just some stupid spider. It was intelligent. I held out my hand and the Tarantula walked onto the palm of my hand and stood there for about ten seconds. I was actually thrilled and amazed. Of course, it was a species of Tarantula that was not poisonous and used to human interaction.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Well, to say the least, for most, that didn't fit with an adequate Easter experience. How many billions are actually believing in the goddess Easter (even pronounced the same way) and don't want to know about the true history of religions and anthropology. I ate way too much chocolate to try to ignore the idiocy.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Non ;)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "harrisonferrel" <harrisonferrel@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Eckankar has everything to do with taking advantage of gullible people looking to improve themselves (of course there are exceptions). But I find fault with people who are faced with the facts, which are now readily available all across the internet, yet continue to live the lie, believe the lies and promote the lies.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > When I got into the cult many years ago there was no widely spread information on what a scam it was. David Lane was the only one who exposed eckankar for what it really is. When the internet became a good tool I was able to find out enough to make me buy the original books from which twitchell plagiarized. It took me only a minute of comparing eck writings with those that were stolen to quit the cult and understand that it was all unreliable nonsense. I determined that Klemp was either deluded or a psychopath. Now I think it's the latter. How can you live day in and day out deceiving people if you really have a conscience?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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