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  • etznab18
    A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13 [...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 13, 2013
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      A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13

      "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream as well. [... .]"

      [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]

      http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

      My contributions to the "growing list".

      https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/Ref%23$2041391720

      ***

      https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8lGt1TvUM3Q
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Etznab, What s this pertain to? I wasn t able to pull these sites up. What s Marman saying about the Astral Library dream (of PT s?) being
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 13, 2013
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        Hello Etznab,
        What's this pertain to?
        I wasn't able to pull these
        sites up.

        What's Marman saying
        about "the Astral Library
        dream"(of PT's?) being
        misunderstood... in what
        way?

        What is the interpretation?
        It's more than a metaphor
        correct?

        Didn't Klemp say that he,
        too, visited the Astral Library
        and saw Ancient manuscripts
        with Twitchell's handwritten
        notes scribbled in the margins.

        It seems that only EKists have
        access to this specific Astral
        Plane Library and that it's a
        really old style (ancient/wisdom
        filled) library that, mostly, EKists
        are taught to dream of and
        conjure.

        BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
        as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
        So why believe anything Twitchell
        said?

        This is what bothered Klemp.
        Klemp realized that Twitchell
        was worse than Darwin! The
        Astral Library story/dream was
        B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
        out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
        and Gross did. He rationalizes
        it all away by thinking that he
        is giving a select group of New
        Agers something to believe in.
        HK's giving them much of what
        the other religions give: Faith;
        Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
        While taking their money and
        being seen as Pope like by
        being infallible and beyond
        reproach.

        Prometheus


        "etznab18" wrote:
        A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13

        "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
        misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
        I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
        but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?

        The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
        whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
        gave those talks or started writing about it.

        He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
        hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
        happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
        clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream
        as well. [... .]"

        [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
        More Questions to Doug Marman]

        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

        My contributions to the "growing list".

        https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
        r/Ref%23$2041391720

        ***

        https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
        lGt1TvUM3Q
      • etznab18
        I can t seem to go for long now without my Yahoo emails bouncing. So, again, I didn t get this message in my email folder and read it just now after visiting
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 17, 2013
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          I can't seem to go for long now without my Yahoo emails bouncing. So, again, I didn't get this message in my email folder and read it just now after visiting the site.

          Will try to elaborate in the future about the subject.

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
          >
          > Hello Etznab,
          > What's this pertain to?
          > I wasn't able to pull these
          > sites up.
          >
          > What's Marman saying
          > about "the Astral Library
          > dream"(of PT's?) being
          > misunderstood... in what
          > way?
          >
          > What is the interpretation?
          > It's more than a metaphor
          > correct?
          >
          > Didn't Klemp say that he,
          > too, visited the Astral Library
          > and saw Ancient manuscripts
          > with Twitchell's handwritten
          > notes scribbled in the margins.
          >
          > It seems that only EKists have
          > access to this specific Astral
          > Plane Library and that it's a
          > really old style (ancient/wisdom
          > filled) library that, mostly, EKists
          > are taught to dream of and
          > conjure.
          >
          > BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
          > as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
          > So why believe anything Twitchell
          > said?
          >
          > This is what bothered Klemp.
          > Klemp realized that Twitchell
          > was worse than Darwin! The
          > Astral Library story/dream was
          > B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
          > out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
          > and Gross did. He rationalizes
          > it all away by thinking that he
          > is giving a select group of New
          > Agers something to believe in.
          > HK's giving them much of what
          > the other religions give: Faith;
          > Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
          > While taking their money and
          > being seen as Pope like by
          > being infallible and beyond
          > reproach.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > "etznab18" wrote:
          > A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
          >
          > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
          > misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
          > I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
          > but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
          >
          > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
          > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
          > gave those talks or started writing about it.
          >
          > He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
          > hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
          > happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
          > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream
          > as well. [... .]"
          >
          > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
          > More Questions to Doug Marman]
          >
          > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
          >
          > My contributions to the "growing list".
          >
          > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
          > r/Ref%23$2041391720
          >
          > ***
          >
          > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
          > lGt1TvUM3Q
          >
        • etznab18
          Sorry those links didn t work. One link was to an a.r.e. archive link to all the examples of plagiarisms that I ve seen to date - which can be found by
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 18, 2013
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            Sorry those links didn't work. One link was to an a.r.e. archive link to all the examples of plagiarisms that I've seen to date - which can be found by searching the a.r.e. archive for: Ref# 41391720. Example:

            https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/Ref%23$2041391720

            The second link (that didn't work) was to the a.r.e. thread from where the quotes I posted can be found. Example (and about the growing list):

            "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
            researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
            turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to
            say that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I
            [Doug Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the
            records. Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past,
            which Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough
            study.

            "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
            about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
            further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and
            worked for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early
            days. So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [...] A few
            months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
            began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
            share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
            anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
            unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
            see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [... .]"

            [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]

            "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it
            has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my
            book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering
            another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the
            correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with
            me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
            that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was
            quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
            swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
            with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
            clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral
            Library dream as well. [... .]"

            [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
            Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]

            http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

            Those were the two quotes, I believe, that I referred to. The a.r.e. link page is here:

            http://tinyurl.com/b7svn87

            As for the T.S. link, I don't think they work any longer. Personally, I suspect somebody sabotaged the T.S. site. There is a redirect link which prevents most of the original pages from coming up.

            I believe maybe I copied ALL of the old T.S. B.B. posts, and from going to wayback machine, from old archive pages. So if anybody in the future wants copies of T.S. B.B. posts just let me know.

            Btw, I just noticed that I gave the wrong date for that D.M. post. It was not from January 2003, but January 3rd, 2004. I have a copy if anybody wants to see it.

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
            >
            > Hello Etznab,
            > What's this pertain to?
            > I wasn't able to pull these
            > sites up.
            >
            > What's Marman saying
            > about "the Astral Library
            > dream"(of PT's?) being
            > misunderstood... in what
            > way?
            >
            > What is the interpretation?
            > It's more than a metaphor
            > correct?
            >
            > Didn't Klemp say that he,
            > too, visited the Astral Library
            > and saw Ancient manuscripts
            > with Twitchell's handwritten
            > notes scribbled in the margins.
            >
            > It seems that only EKists have
            > access to this specific Astral
            > Plane Library and that it's a
            > really old style (ancient/wisdom
            > filled) library that, mostly, EKists
            > are taught to dream of and
            > conjure.
            >
            > BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
            > as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
            > So why believe anything Twitchell
            > said?
            >
            > This is what bothered Klemp.
            > Klemp realized that Twitchell
            > was worse than Darwin! The
            > Astral Library story/dream was
            > B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
            > out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
            > and Gross did. He rationalizes
            > it all away by thinking that he
            > is giving a select group of New
            > Agers something to believe in.
            > HK's giving them much of what
            > the other religions give: Faith;
            > Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
            > While taking their money and
            > being seen as Pope like by
            > being infallible and beyond
            > reproach.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > "etznab18" wrote:
            > A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
            >
            > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
            > misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
            > I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
            > but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
            >
            > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
            > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
            > gave those talks or started writing about it.
            >
            > He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
            > hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
            > happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
            > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream
            > as well. [... .]"
            >
            > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
            > More Questions to Doug Marman]
            >
            > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
            >
            > My contributions to the "growing list".
            >
            > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
            > r/Ref%23$2041391720
            >
            > ***
            >
            > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
            > lGt1TvUM3Q
            >
          • etznab18
            Here is a copy of Doug Marman s January 3rd, 2004 T.S. post. that I referenced (quoted from) earlier. *** Doug Marman 1/3/2004 Response to Usually Skeptical:
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 18, 2013
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              Here is a copy of Doug Marman's January 3rd, 2004 T.S. post. that I referenced (quoted from) earlier.

              ***

              Doug Marman
              1/3/2004

              Response to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman

              USUALLY SKEPTIKAL WROTE:
              > Dear Doug,
              >
              > I found your response and Ford's interesting. However, could you answer me
              > about your connections to Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp and
              > Eckankar? Are you a member of Eckankar now or have you ever been?
              >
              > Could you also fill me in on how Lane misinterpretated Harold's Astral
              > Library story? I don't recall Twitchell ever mentioning an Astral Library.
              >
              > Thank You,
              > Usually Skeptical

              I worked at the ECK Office first when it was located in Las Vegas. I started there about one year after Darwin became the Master. He was one of the most humble people back then.

              I worked on a number of projects with him and got to know him personally.

              I talk about this in my Internet book. One of the projects I took on was to organize Paul's orginal taped talks, which had been abandoned in a loft there. It was a mess. I listened to everyone of Paul's talks at least a dozen times, as I tried to sort out when and where it took place, and to splice them back together into their original form.

              I met Harold there in 1973. He left for a year before coming back to work at the ECK Office. He and I became close friends. Neither of us were much interested in the office politics, but loved talking about the spiritual teachings.

              I just happened to be there at the office when David Lane was first writing his book, so I could comment firsthand on many things. I also kept a complete set of the ECK publications from the start of ECKANKAR, which I got when I was there, so I could get actual quotes and the facts of the early days.

              I have been a member since then, however, I currently hold no position in the organization and wrote my book completely on my own and not trying to represent anyone else but myself and my own understanding.

              Years later, when Harold became the Master, he gave me a chance to go through Paul's library and files, after they have been retrieved from Darwin's home. I learned a lot more about Paul there.

              Since I joined ECKANKAR, I've had a recurring dream about looking for old writings of Paul, back before ECKANKAR. I talk about the search this led me on in the last chapter of my book.

              As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream as well.

              If you read Harold's actual words, you will see that David Lane is wrong. Harold does not anywhere in his talk say that Paul got his information from the Astral Library, therefore it was not plagiarism. Harold never says that. What Harold does say is that the Astral Library is a source of great wisdom that some of the greatest writers have access to it. It is an inner source of truth about the path. Also, from the information there, Harold could see the sources of all of Paul's books, since it was all in the records there.

              The point of this is that you can't fool the records in the Astral Library. It was clear there that Paul had borrowed from other writers. That's the point of Harold's story. That's why he was talking about Paul as a Compiler at the beginning of the talk, and that we need to take him down off the pedestal as a god and see that he was a man. Harold called this the death of an ideal. Harold talks about the stages that people go through in accepting a death in the family - rejecting the idea, then anger, then confusion and doubt, then disillusionment, then acceptance - or something like that. All this was because plagiarism is not the way we want to see Paul. That was all in the same talk, concluding with Harold talking about his dream in the Astral Library where he finally saw Paul.

              Here's how Harold ends his talk:

              "I'm doing all this research in a soundproof booth so it doesn't disturb the other people who are doing research. As I look over at a table, I see Paul--busy as usual, researching and writing. He looks at me and says, kind of gruffly, "What's that?"

              " 'Source manuscripts, ' I say.

              " 'For what? ' he asks.

              " 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, ' I reply.

              " 'Oh, ' he says. 'Well, we'll have to do something about that someday. '

              "Then he picks up his notebook and leaves, heading out into the stacks.

              "Yeah, I thought to myself, and I know who is going to have to do something about that someday! "

              Here is what David Lane said in his book:

              Simply put, Klemp has invented a story to cover-up Twitchell's plagiarism so that Eckankar can still get away with publishing "stolen" materials.

              In fact, the point Harold was making was the exact opposite. Harold was breaking the news to ECKists that Paul borrowed and copied. That was the very thing he was studying in his dream.

              David Lane challenged me on my interpretation, and we had some long dialogues about it. The whole of Harold's talk makes sense if you see it as I'm explaining. It doesn't make sense if Harold is trying to explain that it wasn't plagiarism after all because Paul got it all from the Astral. Then why would Harold need to clean up a mess?

              But the real problem here is simply that Harold never said what David accused him of saying. Harold never even suggests it. It was simply a mistaken interpretation.

              David wasn't the only one to make this mistake. I can see why some might draw the wrong conclusion, but since I had firsthand experience with it, I know that the last thing Harold was trying to do was cover something up. Quite the opposite.

              I hope this helps.

              Thanks.

              Doug Marman.

              ***

              http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
              >
              > Sorry those links didn't work. One link was to an a.r.e. archive link to all the examples of plagiarisms that I've seen to date - which can be found by searching the a.r.e. archive for: Ref# 41391720. Example:
              >
              > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/Ref%23$2041391720
              >
              > The second link (that didn't work) was to the a.r.e. thread from where the quotes I posted can be found. Example (and about the growing list):
              >
              > "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
              > researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
              > turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to
              > say that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I
              > [Doug Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the
              > records. Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past,
              > which Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough
              > study.
              >
              > "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
              > about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
              > further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and
              > worked for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early
              > days. So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [...] A few
              > months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
              > began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
              > share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
              > anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
              > unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
              > see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [... .]"
              >
              > [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
              >
              > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it
              > has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my
              > book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering
              > another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the
              > correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with
              > me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
              > that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was
              > quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
              > swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
              > with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
              > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral
              > Library dream as well. [... .]"
              >
              > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
              > Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]
              >
              > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
              >
              > Those were the two quotes, I believe, that I referred to. The a.r.e. link page is here:
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/b7svn87
              >
              > As for the T.S. link, I don't think they work any longer. Personally, I suspect somebody sabotaged the T.S. site. There is a redirect link which prevents most of the original pages from coming up.
              >
              > I believe maybe I copied ALL of the old T.S. B.B. posts, and from going to wayback machine, from old archive pages. So if anybody in the future wants copies of T.S. B.B. posts just let me know.
              >
              > Btw, I just noticed that I gave the wrong date for that D.M. post. It was not from January 2003, but January 3rd, 2004. I have a copy if anybody wants to see it.
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Etznab,
              > > What's this pertain to?
              > > I wasn't able to pull these
              > > sites up.
              > >
              > > What's Marman saying
              > > about "the Astral Library
              > > dream"(of PT's?) being
              > > misunderstood... in what
              > > way?
              > >
              > > What is the interpretation?
              > > It's more than a metaphor
              > > correct?
              > >
              > > Didn't Klemp say that he,
              > > too, visited the Astral Library
              > > and saw Ancient manuscripts
              > > with Twitchell's handwritten
              > > notes scribbled in the margins.
              > >
              > > It seems that only EKists have
              > > access to this specific Astral
              > > Plane Library and that it's a
              > > really old style (ancient/wisdom
              > > filled) library that, mostly, EKists
              > > are taught to dream of and
              > > conjure.
              > >
              > > BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
              > > as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
              > > So why believe anything Twitchell
              > > said?
              > >
              > > This is what bothered Klemp.
              > > Klemp realized that Twitchell
              > > was worse than Darwin! The
              > > Astral Library story/dream was
              > > B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
              > > out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
              > > and Gross did. He rationalizes
              > > it all away by thinking that he
              > > is giving a select group of New
              > > Agers something to believe in.
              > > HK's giving them much of what
              > > the other religions give: Faith;
              > > Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
              > > While taking their money and
              > > being seen as Pope like by
              > > being infallible and beyond
              > > reproach.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              > > "etznab18" wrote:
              > > A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
              > >
              > > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
              > > misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
              > > I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
              > > but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
              > >
              > > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
              > > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
              > > gave those talks or started writing about it.
              > >
              > > He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
              > > hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
              > > happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
              > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream
              > > as well. [... .]"
              > >
              > > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
              > > More Questions to Doug Marman]
              > >
              > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
              > >
              > > My contributions to the "growing list".
              > >
              > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
              > > r/Ref%23$2041391720
              > >
              > > ***
              > >
              > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
              > > lGt1TvUM3Q
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Etznab and All, Actually the Astral Library excuse is just another lie for Twitchell s plagiarisms and for Klemp s continuation of the scam. I happen to
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 18, 2013
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                Hello Etznab and All,
                Actually the Astral Library
                excuse is just another lie
                for Twitchell's plagiarisms
                and for Klemp's continuation
                of the scam.

                I happen to know that
                this info Twitchell used
                never came from the 2nd
                Plane Astral Library. I
                Soul traveled to a higher
                plane, the (3rd) Causal
                Plane, and went back into
                the past and to Atlantis.
                I visited the main library
                there and this same info
                Twit used was found in
                that library (3rd floor, see
                Bod). It's still stored there
                (Atlantis) on the Physical
                Plane but in an earlier time.
                Thus, the so-called Astral
                Plane Library is an unnecessary
                lie.

                See how easy it is to make
                shit up!

                Prometheus

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
                >
                > Here is a copy of Doug Marman's January 3rd, 2004 T.S. post. that I referenced (quoted from) earlier.
                >
                > ***
                >
                > Doug Marman
                > 1/3/2004
                >
                > Response to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman
                >
                > USUALLY SKEPTIKAL WROTE:
                > > Dear Doug,
                > >
                > > I found your response and Ford's interesting. However, could you answer me
                > > about your connections to Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp and
                > > Eckankar? Are you a member of Eckankar now or have you ever been?
                > >
                > > Could you also fill me in on how Lane misinterpretated Harold's Astral
                > > Library story? I don't recall Twitchell ever mentioning an Astral Library.
                > >
                > > Thank You,
                > > Usually Skeptical
                >
                > I worked at the ECK Office first when it was located in Las Vegas. I started there about one year after Darwin became the Master. He was one of the most humble people back then.
                >
                > I worked on a number of projects with him and got to know him personally.
                >
                > I talk about this in my Internet book. One of the projects I took on was to organize Paul's orginal taped talks, which had been abandoned in a loft there. It was a mess. I listened to everyone of Paul's talks at least a dozen times, as I tried to sort out when and where it took place, and to splice them back together into their original form.
                >
                > I met Harold there in 1973. He left for a year before coming back to work at the ECK Office. He and I became close friends. Neither of us were much interested in the office politics, but loved talking about the spiritual teachings.
                >
                > I just happened to be there at the office when David Lane was first writing his book, so I could comment firsthand on many things. I also kept a complete set of the ECK publications from the start of ECKANKAR, which I got when I was there, so I could get actual quotes and the facts of the early days.
                >
                > I have been a member since then, however, I currently hold no position in the organization and wrote my book completely on my own and not trying to represent anyone else but myself and my own understanding.
                >
                > Years later, when Harold became the Master, he gave me a chance to go through Paul's library and files, after they have been retrieved from Darwin's home. I learned a lot more about Paul there.
                >
                > Since I joined ECKANKAR, I've had a recurring dream about looking for old writings of Paul, back before ECKANKAR. I talk about the search this led me on in the last chapter of my book.
                >
                > As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream as well.
                >
                > If you read Harold's actual words, you will see that David Lane is wrong. Harold does not anywhere in his talk say that Paul got his information from the Astral Library, therefore it was not plagiarism. Harold never says that. What Harold does say is that the Astral Library is a source of great wisdom that some of the greatest writers have access to it. It is an inner source of truth about the path. Also, from the information there, Harold could see the sources of all of Paul's books, since it was all in the records there.
                >
                > The point of this is that you can't fool the records in the Astral Library. It was clear there that Paul had borrowed from other writers. That's the point of Harold's story. That's why he was talking about Paul as a Compiler at the beginning of the talk, and that we need to take him down off the pedestal as a god and see that he was a man. Harold called this the death of an ideal. Harold talks about the stages that people go through in accepting a death in the family - rejecting the idea, then anger, then confusion and doubt, then disillusionment, then acceptance - or something like that. All this was because plagiarism is not the way we want to see Paul. That was all in the same talk, concluding with Harold talking about his dream in the Astral Library where he finally saw Paul.
                >
                > Here's how Harold ends his talk:
                >
                > "I'm doing all this research in a soundproof booth so it doesn't disturb the other people who are doing research. As I look over at a table, I see Paul--busy as usual, researching and writing. He looks at me and says, kind of gruffly, "What's that?"
                >
                > " 'Source manuscripts, ' I say.
                >
                > " 'For what? ' he asks.
                >
                > " 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, ' I reply.
                >
                > " 'Oh, ' he says. 'Well, we'll have to do something about that someday. '
                >
                > "Then he picks up his notebook and leaves, heading out into the stacks.
                >
                > "Yeah, I thought to myself, and I know who is going to have to do something about that someday! "
                >
                > Here is what David Lane said in his book:
                >
                > Simply put, Klemp has invented a story to cover-up Twitchell's plagiarism so that Eckankar can still get away with publishing "stolen" materials.
                >
                > In fact, the point Harold was making was the exact opposite. Harold was breaking the news to ECKists that Paul borrowed and copied. That was the very thing he was studying in his dream.
                >
                > David Lane challenged me on my interpretation, and we had some long dialogues about it. The whole of Harold's talk makes sense if you see it as I'm explaining. It doesn't make sense if Harold is trying to explain that it wasn't plagiarism after all because Paul got it all from the Astral. Then why would Harold need to clean up a mess?
                >
                > But the real problem here is simply that Harold never said what David accused him of saying. Harold never even suggests it. It was simply a mistaken interpretation.
                >
                > David wasn't the only one to make this mistake. I can see why some might draw the wrong conclusion, but since I had firsthand experience with it, I know that the last thing Harold was trying to do was cover something up. Quite the opposite.
                >
                > I hope this helps.
                >
                > Thanks.
                >
                > Doug Marman.
                >
                > ***
                >
                > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
                >
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
                > >
                > > Sorry those links didn't work. One link was to an a.r.e. archive link to all the examples of plagiarisms that I've seen to date - which can be found by searching the a.r.e. archive for: Ref# 41391720. Example:
                > >
                > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/Ref%23$2041391720
                > >
                > > The second link (that didn't work) was to the a.r.e. thread from where the quotes I posted can be found. Example (and about the growing list):
                > >
                > > "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                > > researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                > > turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to
                > > say that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I
                > > [Doug Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the
                > > records. Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past,
                > > which Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough
                > > study.
                > >
                > > "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                > > about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                > > further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and
                > > worked for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early
                > > days. So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [...] A few
                > > months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                > > began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                > > share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                > > anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                > > unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                > > see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [... .]"
                > >
                > > [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
                > >
                > > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it
                > > has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my
                > > book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering
                > > another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the
                > > correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with
                > > me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
                > > that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was
                > > quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
                > > swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
                > > with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
                > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral
                > > Library dream as well. [... .]"
                > >
                > > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
                > > Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]
                > >
                > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
                > >
                > > Those were the two quotes, I believe, that I referred to. The a.r.e. link page is here:
                > >
                > > http://tinyurl.com/b7svn87
                > >
                > > As for the T.S. link, I don't think they work any longer. Personally, I suspect somebody sabotaged the T.S. site. There is a redirect link which prevents most of the original pages from coming up.
                > >
                > > I believe maybe I copied ALL of the old T.S. B.B. posts, and from going to wayback machine, from old archive pages. So if anybody in the future wants copies of T.S. B.B. posts just let me know.
                > >
                > > Btw, I just noticed that I gave the wrong date for that D.M. post. It was not from January 2003, but January 3rd, 2004. I have a copy if anybody wants to see it.
                > >
                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hello Etznab,
                > > > What's this pertain to?
                > > > I wasn't able to pull these
                > > > sites up.
                > > >
                > > > What's Marman saying
                > > > about "the Astral Library
                > > > dream"(of PT's?) being
                > > > misunderstood... in what
                > > > way?
                > > >
                > > > What is the interpretation?
                > > > It's more than a metaphor
                > > > correct?
                > > >
                > > > Didn't Klemp say that he,
                > > > too, visited the Astral Library
                > > > and saw Ancient manuscripts
                > > > with Twitchell's handwritten
                > > > notes scribbled in the margins.
                > > >
                > > > It seems that only EKists have
                > > > access to this specific Astral
                > > > Plane Library and that it's a
                > > > really old style (ancient/wisdom
                > > > filled) library that, mostly, EKists
                > > > are taught to dream of and
                > > > conjure.
                > > >
                > > > BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
                > > > as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
                > > > So why believe anything Twitchell
                > > > said?
                > > >
                > > > This is what bothered Klemp.
                > > > Klemp realized that Twitchell
                > > > was worse than Darwin! The
                > > > Astral Library story/dream was
                > > > B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
                > > > out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
                > > > and Gross did. He rationalizes
                > > > it all away by thinking that he
                > > > is giving a select group of New
                > > > Agers something to believe in.
                > > > HK's giving them much of what
                > > > the other religions give: Faith;
                > > > Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
                > > > While taking their money and
                > > > being seen as Pope like by
                > > > being infallible and beyond
                > > > reproach.
                > > >
                > > > Prometheus
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > "etznab18" wrote:
                > > > A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
                > > >
                > > > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
                > > > misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
                > > > I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
                > > > but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
                > > >
                > > > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
                > > > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
                > > > gave those talks or started writing about it.
                > > >
                > > > He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
                > > > hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
                > > > happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
                > > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream
                > > > as well. [... .]"
                > > >
                > > > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
                > > > More Questions to Doug Marman]
                > > >
                > > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
                > > >
                > > > My contributions to the "growing list".
                > > >
                > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
                > > > r/Ref%23$2041391720
                > > >
                > > > ***
                > > >
                > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
                > > > lGt1TvUM3Q
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • etznab18
                In my opinion Doug Marman admitted that Paul Twitchell plagiarized and that Harold Klemp knew that Paul Twitchell plagiarized. However, what Harold Klemp
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 19, 2013
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                  In my opinion Doug Marman admitted that Paul Twitchell plagiarized and that Harold Klemp knew that Paul Twitchell plagiarized. However, what Harold Klemp didn't admit (far as I know) was that:

                  "4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                  http://tinyurl.com/3oz2sqy
                  http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264 http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=264&page=1#Item_0

                  Sorry, the links are probably not working, but that was Doug Marman after being questioned on T.S. B.B.

                  ***

                  This whole "thing" now reminds me of the Lance Armstrong interview on Oprah Winfrey (I watched part one last night). Armstrong admitted that he publicly criticized people for telling the truth. That he even sued people for telling the truth (to which Oprah Winfrey responded: "What is that?") Another thing Armstrong said about why he doped, etc., was that "It was the culture." (Notice the word "cult" in that word.)

                  In a way, I thought that Oprah interview was some of the best "medicine" for people in the United States and in the world. I think everybody should watch it (I only saw part one of two). It will help convince them there are people who will (and do) lie in order to WIN at all costs. That there are people and groups (cultures of people) doing this. Some of them are big names, people in high places and worshiped by millions of followers. Not only will such people lie, but they can (and do) attack those who tell the truth, slander them in public and even take them to court if necessary (and sue them for telling the truth!) People need to know that this culture exists and that there is a way to overcome this culture of deception ... this culture that can lie on camera and with a straight face ... over, and over, and over and millions of people will believe them.

                  When I take a look back at the B.B. and newsgroup archives, of people telling the truth and being publicly slandered as a result of telling the truths they know about Eckankar writings, etc. ... I see many of the same things that I saw revealed by the Lance Armstrong interview. What I don't see so much of are people from the culture of liers and attackers many years later admitting that what they did was wrong and apologizing to the people they criticized. Of course their was some of this, by members who changed their tunes after learning the truth, but I see it continuing on a.r.e. and other places even today that some still can't handle the truth.

                  Ten years I followed the issues of Eckankar plagiarism, etc., from 2003 when Ford Johnson's book came out. I looked at his, others, and the pioneering research by David Lane that gave examples. I followed them and even at some points surpassed them by discovering examples of new plagiarisms and things that even they were unaware. I've also seen other people surpass the research by those from the past who seem to have given up finding new information and pieces in the puzzle. Still, I continue to see all of those stages for death of an ideal displayed by those who when presented with the truth refuse to admit it. I still see people not wanting to acknowledge the truth even when it is put right in front of them.

                  With the Armstrong scenario I think people believed in the lies because they didn't see any credible evidence to the contrary. And even when the evidence and witnesses started coming forward they still didn't believe. But when the guilty party finally comes out and admits the truth I think it becomes much easier and then they believe.
                  Perhaps something similar is necessary with "Eckankar".

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                  > Actually the Astral Library
                  > excuse is just another lie
                  > for Twitchell's plagiarisms
                  > and for Klemp's continuation
                  > of the scam.
                  >
                  > I happen to know that
                  > this info Twitchell used
                  > never came from the 2nd
                  > Plane Astral Library. I
                  > Soul traveled to a higher
                  > plane, the (3rd) Causal
                  > Plane, and went back into
                  > the past and to Atlantis.
                  > I visited the main library
                  > there and this same info
                  > Twit used was found in
                  > that library (3rd floor, see
                  > Bod). It's still stored there
                  > (Atlantis) on the Physical
                  > Plane but in an earlier time.
                  > Thus, the so-called Astral
                  > Plane Library is an unnecessary
                  > lie.
                  >
                  > See how easy it is to make
                  > shit up!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Here is a copy of Doug Marman's January 3rd, 2004 T.S. post. that I referenced (quoted from) earlier.
                  > >
                  > > ***
                  > >
                  > > Doug Marman
                  > > 1/3/2004
                  > >
                  > > Response to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman
                  > >
                  > > USUALLY SKEPTIKAL WROTE:
                  > > > Dear Doug,
                  > > >
                  > > > I found your response and Ford's interesting. However, could you answer me
                  > > > about your connections to Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp and
                  > > > Eckankar? Are you a member of Eckankar now or have you ever been?
                  > > >
                  > > > Could you also fill me in on how Lane misinterpretated Harold's Astral
                  > > > Library story? I don't recall Twitchell ever mentioning an Astral Library.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thank You,
                  > > > Usually Skeptical
                  > >
                  > > I worked at the ECK Office first when it was located in Las Vegas. I started there about one year after Darwin became the Master. He was one of the most humble people back then.
                  > >
                  > > I worked on a number of projects with him and got to know him personally.
                  > >
                  > > I talk about this in my Internet book. One of the projects I took on was to organize Paul's orginal taped talks, which had been abandoned in a loft there. It was a mess. I listened to everyone of Paul's talks at least a dozen times, as I tried to sort out when and where it took place, and to splice them back together into their original form.
                  > >
                  > > I met Harold there in 1973. He left for a year before coming back to work at the ECK Office. He and I became close friends. Neither of us were much interested in the office politics, but loved talking about the spiritual teachings.
                  > >
                  > > I just happened to be there at the office when David Lane was first writing his book, so I could comment firsthand on many things. I also kept a complete set of the ECK publications from the start of ECKANKAR, which I got when I was there, so I could get actual quotes and the facts of the early days.
                  > >
                  > > I have been a member since then, however, I currently hold no position in the organization and wrote my book completely on my own and not trying to represent anyone else but myself and my own understanding.
                  > >
                  > > Years later, when Harold became the Master, he gave me a chance to go through Paul's library and files, after they have been retrieved from Darwin's home. I learned a lot more about Paul there.
                  > >
                  > > Since I joined ECKANKAR, I've had a recurring dream about looking for old writings of Paul, back before ECKANKAR. I talk about the search this led me on in the last chapter of my book.
                  > >
                  > > As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream as well.
                  > >
                  > > If you read Harold's actual words, you will see that David Lane is wrong. Harold does not anywhere in his talk say that Paul got his information from the Astral Library, therefore it was not plagiarism. Harold never says that. What Harold does say is that the Astral Library is a source of great wisdom that some of the greatest writers have access to it. It is an inner source of truth about the path. Also, from the information there, Harold could see the sources of all of Paul's books, since it was all in the records there.
                  > >
                  > > The point of this is that you can't fool the records in the Astral Library. It was clear there that Paul had borrowed from other writers. That's the point of Harold's story. That's why he was talking about Paul as a Compiler at the beginning of the talk, and that we need to take him down off the pedestal as a god and see that he was a man. Harold called this the death of an ideal. Harold talks about the stages that people go through in accepting a death in the family - rejecting the idea, then anger, then confusion and doubt, then disillusionment, then acceptance - or something like that. All this was because plagiarism is not the way we want to see Paul. That was all in the same talk, concluding with Harold talking about his dream in the Astral Library where he finally saw Paul.
                  > >
                  > > Here's how Harold ends his talk:
                  > >
                  > > "I'm doing all this research in a soundproof booth so it doesn't disturb the other people who are doing research. As I look over at a table, I see Paul--busy as usual, researching and writing. He looks at me and says, kind of gruffly, "What's that?"
                  > >
                  > > " 'Source manuscripts, ' I say.
                  > >
                  > > " 'For what? ' he asks.
                  > >
                  > > " 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, ' I reply.
                  > >
                  > > " 'Oh, ' he says. 'Well, we'll have to do something about that someday. '
                  > >
                  > > "Then he picks up his notebook and leaves, heading out into the stacks.
                  > >
                  > > "Yeah, I thought to myself, and I know who is going to have to do something about that someday! "
                  > >
                  > > Here is what David Lane said in his book:
                  > >
                  > > Simply put, Klemp has invented a story to cover-up Twitchell's plagiarism so that Eckankar can still get away with publishing "stolen" materials.
                  > >
                  > > In fact, the point Harold was making was the exact opposite. Harold was breaking the news to ECKists that Paul borrowed and copied. That was the very thing he was studying in his dream.
                  > >
                  > > David Lane challenged me on my interpretation, and we had some long dialogues about it. The whole of Harold's talk makes sense if you see it as I'm explaining. It doesn't make sense if Harold is trying to explain that it wasn't plagiarism after all because Paul got it all from the Astral. Then why would Harold need to clean up a mess?
                  > >
                  > > But the real problem here is simply that Harold never said what David accused him of saying. Harold never even suggests it. It was simply a mistaken interpretation.
                  > >
                  > > David wasn't the only one to make this mistake. I can see why some might draw the wrong conclusion, but since I had firsthand experience with it, I know that the last thing Harold was trying to do was cover something up. Quite the opposite.
                  > >
                  > > I hope this helps.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks.
                  > >
                  > > Doug Marman.
                  > >
                  > > ***
                  > >
                  > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Sorry those links didn't work. One link was to an a.r.e. archive link to all the examples of plagiarisms that I've seen to date - which can be found by searching the a.r.e. archive for: Ref# 41391720. Example:
                  > > >
                  > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/Ref%23$2041391720
                  > > >
                  > > > The second link (that didn't work) was to the a.r.e. thread from where the quotes I posted can be found. Example (and about the growing list):
                  > > >
                  > > > "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                  > > > researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                  > > > turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to
                  > > > say that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I
                  > > > [Doug Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the
                  > > > records. Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past,
                  > > > which Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough
                  > > > study.
                  > > >
                  > > > "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                  > > > about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                  > > > further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and
                  > > > worked for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early
                  > > > days. So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [...] A few
                  > > > months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                  > > > began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                  > > > share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                  > > > anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                  > > > unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                  > > > see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [... .]"
                  > > >
                  > > > [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
                  > > >
                  > > > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it
                  > > > has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my
                  > > > book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering
                  > > > another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the
                  > > > correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with
                  > > > me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
                  > > > that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was
                  > > > quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
                  > > > swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
                  > > > with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
                  > > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral
                  > > > Library dream as well. [... .]"
                  > > >
                  > > > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
                  > > > Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
                  > > >
                  > > > Those were the two quotes, I believe, that I referred to. The a.r.e. link page is here:
                  > > >
                  > > > http://tinyurl.com/b7svn87
                  > > >
                  > > > As for the T.S. link, I don't think they work any longer. Personally, I suspect somebody sabotaged the T.S. site. There is a redirect link which prevents most of the original pages from coming up.
                  > > >
                  > > > I believe maybe I copied ALL of the old T.S. B.B. posts, and from going to wayback machine, from old archive pages. So if anybody in the future wants copies of T.S. B.B. posts just let me know.
                  > > >
                  > > > Btw, I just noticed that I gave the wrong date for that D.M. post. It was not from January 2003, but January 3rd, 2004. I have a copy if anybody wants to see it.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hello Etznab,
                  > > > > What's this pertain to?
                  > > > > I wasn't able to pull these
                  > > > > sites up.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > What's Marman saying
                  > > > > about "the Astral Library
                  > > > > dream"(of PT's?) being
                  > > > > misunderstood... in what
                  > > > > way?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > What is the interpretation?
                  > > > > It's more than a metaphor
                  > > > > correct?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Didn't Klemp say that he,
                  > > > > too, visited the Astral Library
                  > > > > and saw Ancient manuscripts
                  > > > > with Twitchell's handwritten
                  > > > > notes scribbled in the margins.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It seems that only EKists have
                  > > > > access to this specific Astral
                  > > > > Plane Library and that it's a
                  > > > > really old style (ancient/wisdom
                  > > > > filled) library that, mostly, EKists
                  > > > > are taught to dream of and
                  > > > > conjure.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
                  > > > > as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
                  > > > > So why believe anything Twitchell
                  > > > > said?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > This is what bothered Klemp.
                  > > > > Klemp realized that Twitchell
                  > > > > was worse than Darwin! The
                  > > > > Astral Library story/dream was
                  > > > > B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
                  > > > > out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
                  > > > > and Gross did. He rationalizes
                  > > > > it all away by thinking that he
                  > > > > is giving a select group of New
                  > > > > Agers something to believe in.
                  > > > > HK's giving them much of what
                  > > > > the other religions give: Faith;
                  > > > > Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
                  > > > > While taking their money and
                  > > > > being seen as Pope like by
                  > > > > being infallible and beyond
                  > > > > reproach.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Prometheus
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "etznab18" wrote:
                  > > > > A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
                  > > > > misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
                  > > > > I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
                  > > > > but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
                  > > > > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
                  > > > > gave those talks or started writing about it.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
                  > > > > hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
                  > > > > happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
                  > > > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream
                  > > > > as well. [... .]"
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
                  > > > > More Questions to Doug Marman]
                  > > > >
                  > > > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
                  > > > >
                  > > > > My contributions to the "growing list".
                  > > > >
                  > > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
                  > > > > r/Ref%23$2041391720
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ***
                  > > > >
                  > > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
                  > > > > lGt1TvUM3Q
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Non
                  There is still a sense of shock, at least for me, that some will just continue to lie or believe in a lie in some kind of continuous loop of
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 19, 2013
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                    There is still a sense of shock, at least for me, that some will just continue to lie or believe in a lie in some kind of continuous loop of self-justification. Of course, the bigger the lie, perhaps the identity of the person(s) involved becomes so intertwined that they cannot disengage. The feeling of shame may be unbearable, or for some, they don't feel shame or guilt or empathy in the same way that others do.

                    It is also true that all of us lie or have lied to lesser degrees. It is not always prudent to always say what we believe to be the truth at all times. Honesty is good and nice most of the time, and yet we are not all knowing beings and so it is better imo to at least not blatantly deceive for personal gain or dishonest manipulation. Other than that, there are really no saints among us. We are all very human and most of the time we just have to be willing and open to admit to our mistakes and fallibility, imho. Also, our perceptions may be false or suddenly telling someone all of their perceived faults because that is being "honest" may not be very compassionate at all.

                    Klemp and eckankar is both a practice of deception and delusion. Usually pathological liars won't come clean unless they are forced to the edge of out right irrefutable proof in a court of law or public opinion or detained in jail. Even then, they will probably not admit to anything, nor any wrong doing.

                    It takes a moral state of mind and consciousness, empathy.... to be reached. It takes guts sometimes. Eckankar and klemp do nothing to encourage a truly moral code of ethics and a dogma free Theocracy.

                    I find it interesting that Lance Armstrong finally came clean, yet he is still a wealthy man and maybe he had an awakening, or his conscience became stronger than the effort it takes to continue with a big lie. He did at least have a good side to him, in so far as wanting to help others. Who knows? Just my take. Oprah is not necessarily the epitome of saintly honesty either. She's a good actor at what she does for public shows. Beyond than, she is not really an authority on much.

                    Non ;)

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
                    >
                    > In my opinion Doug Marman admitted that Paul Twitchell plagiarized and that Harold Klemp knew that Paul Twitchell plagiarized. However, what Harold Klemp didn't admit (far as I know) was that:
                    >
                    > "4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"
                    >
                    > http://tinyurl.com/3oz2sqy
                    > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264 http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=264&page=1#Item_0
                    >
                    > Sorry, the links are probably not working, but that was Doug Marman after being questioned on T.S. B.B.
                    >
                    > ***
                    >
                    > This whole "thing" now reminds me of the Lance Armstrong interview on Oprah Winfrey (I watched part one last night). Armstrong admitted that he publicly criticized people for telling the truth. That he even sued people for telling the truth (to which Oprah Winfrey responded: "What is that?") Another thing Armstrong said about why he doped, etc., was that "It was the culture." (Notice the word "cult" in that word.)
                    >
                    > In a way, I thought that Oprah interview was some of the best "medicine" for people in the United States and in the world. I think everybody should watch it (I only saw part one of two). It will help convince them there are people who will (and do) lie in order to WIN at all costs. That there are people and groups (cultures of people) doing this. Some of them are big names, people in high places and worshiped by millions of followers. Not only will such people lie, but they can (and do) attack those who tell the truth, slander them in public and even take them to court if necessary (and sue them for telling the truth!) People need to know that this culture exists and that there is a way to overcome this culture of deception ... this culture that can lie on camera and with a straight face ... over, and over, and over and millions of people will believe them.
                    >
                    > When I take a look back at the B.B. and newsgroup archives, of people telling the truth and being publicly slandered as a result of telling the truths they know about Eckankar writings, etc. ... I see many of the same things that I saw revealed by the Lance Armstrong interview. What I don't see so much of are people from the culture of liers and attackers many years later admitting that what they did was wrong and apologizing to the people they criticized. Of course their was some of this, by members who changed their tunes after learning the truth, but I see it continuing on a.r.e. and other places even today that some still can't handle the truth.
                    >
                    > Ten years I followed the issues of Eckankar plagiarism, etc., from 2003 when Ford Johnson's book came out. I looked at his, others, and the pioneering research by David Lane that gave examples. I followed them and even at some points surpassed them by discovering examples of new plagiarisms and things that even they were unaware. I've also seen other people surpass the research by those from the past who seem to have given up finding new information and pieces in the puzzle. Still, I continue to see all of those stages for death of an ideal displayed by those who when presented with the truth refuse to admit it. I still see people not wanting to acknowledge the truth even when it is put right in front of them.
                    >
                    > With the Armstrong scenario I think people believed in the lies because they didn't see any credible evidence to the contrary. And even when the evidence and witnesses started coming forward they still didn't believe. But when the guilty party finally comes out and admits the truth I think it becomes much easier and then they believe.
                    > Perhaps something similar is necessary with "Eckankar".
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Etznab and All,
                    > > Actually the Astral Library
                    > > excuse is just another lie
                    > > for Twitchell's plagiarisms
                    > > and for Klemp's continuation
                    > > of the scam.
                    > >
                    > > I happen to know that
                    > > this info Twitchell used
                    > > never came from the 2nd
                    > > Plane Astral Library. I
                    > > Soul traveled to a higher
                    > > plane, the (3rd) Causal
                    > > Plane, and went back into
                    > > the past and to Atlantis.
                    > > I visited the main library
                    > > there and this same info
                    > > Twit used was found in
                    > > that library (3rd floor, see
                    > > Bod). It's still stored there
                    > > (Atlantis) on the Physical
                    > > Plane but in an earlier time.
                    > > Thus, the so-called Astral
                    > > Plane Library is an unnecessary
                    > > lie.
                    > >
                    > > See how easy it is to make
                    > > shit up!
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Here is a copy of Doug Marman's January 3rd, 2004 T.S. post. that I referenced (quoted from) earlier.
                    > > >
                    > > > ***
                    > > >
                    > > > Doug Marman
                    > > > 1/3/2004
                    > > >
                    > > > Response to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman
                    > > >
                    > > > USUALLY SKEPTIKAL WROTE:
                    > > > > Dear Doug,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I found your response and Ford's interesting. However, could you answer me
                    > > > > about your connections to Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp and
                    > > > > Eckankar? Are you a member of Eckankar now or have you ever been?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Could you also fill me in on how Lane misinterpretated Harold's Astral
                    > > > > Library story? I don't recall Twitchell ever mentioning an Astral Library.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thank You,
                    > > > > Usually Skeptical
                    > > >
                    > > > I worked at the ECK Office first when it was located in Las Vegas. I started there about one year after Darwin became the Master. He was one of the most humble people back then.
                    > > >
                    > > > I worked on a number of projects with him and got to know him personally.
                    > > >
                    > > > I talk about this in my Internet book. One of the projects I took on was to organize Paul's orginal taped talks, which had been abandoned in a loft there. It was a mess. I listened to everyone of Paul's talks at least a dozen times, as I tried to sort out when and where it took place, and to splice them back together into their original form.
                    > > >
                    > > > I met Harold there in 1973. He left for a year before coming back to work at the ECK Office. He and I became close friends. Neither of us were much interested in the office politics, but loved talking about the spiritual teachings.
                    > > >
                    > > > I just happened to be there at the office when David Lane was first writing his book, so I could comment firsthand on many things. I also kept a complete set of the ECK publications from the start of ECKANKAR, which I got when I was there, so I could get actual quotes and the facts of the early days.
                    > > >
                    > > > I have been a member since then, however, I currently hold no position in the organization and wrote my book completely on my own and not trying to represent anyone else but myself and my own understanding.
                    > > >
                    > > > Years later, when Harold became the Master, he gave me a chance to go through Paul's library and files, after they have been retrieved from Darwin's home. I learned a lot more about Paul there.
                    > > >
                    > > > Since I joined ECKANKAR, I've had a recurring dream about looking for old writings of Paul, back before ECKANKAR. I talk about the search this led me on in the last chapter of my book.
                    > > >
                    > > > As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream as well.
                    > > >
                    > > > If you read Harold's actual words, you will see that David Lane is wrong. Harold does not anywhere in his talk say that Paul got his information from the Astral Library, therefore it was not plagiarism. Harold never says that. What Harold does say is that the Astral Library is a source of great wisdom that some of the greatest writers have access to it. It is an inner source of truth about the path. Also, from the information there, Harold could see the sources of all of Paul's books, since it was all in the records there.
                    > > >
                    > > > The point of this is that you can't fool the records in the Astral Library. It was clear there that Paul had borrowed from other writers. That's the point of Harold's story. That's why he was talking about Paul as a Compiler at the beginning of the talk, and that we need to take him down off the pedestal as a god and see that he was a man. Harold called this the death of an ideal. Harold talks about the stages that people go through in accepting a death in the family - rejecting the idea, then anger, then confusion and doubt, then disillusionment, then acceptance - or something like that. All this was because plagiarism is not the way we want to see Paul. That was all in the same talk, concluding with Harold talking about his dream in the Astral Library where he finally saw Paul.
                    > > >
                    > > > Here's how Harold ends his talk:
                    > > >
                    > > > "I'm doing all this research in a soundproof booth so it doesn't disturb the other people who are doing research. As I look over at a table, I see Paul--busy as usual, researching and writing. He looks at me and says, kind of gruffly, "What's that?"
                    > > >
                    > > > " 'Source manuscripts, ' I say.
                    > > >
                    > > > " 'For what? ' he asks.
                    > > >
                    > > > " 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, ' I reply.
                    > > >
                    > > > " 'Oh, ' he says. 'Well, we'll have to do something about that someday. '
                    > > >
                    > > > "Then he picks up his notebook and leaves, heading out into the stacks.
                    > > >
                    > > > "Yeah, I thought to myself, and I know who is going to have to do something about that someday! "
                    > > >
                    > > > Here is what David Lane said in his book:
                    > > >
                    > > > Simply put, Klemp has invented a story to cover-up Twitchell's plagiarism so that Eckankar can still get away with publishing "stolen" materials.
                    > > >
                    > > > In fact, the point Harold was making was the exact opposite. Harold was breaking the news to ECKists that Paul borrowed and copied. That was the very thing he was studying in his dream.
                    > > >
                    > > > David Lane challenged me on my interpretation, and we had some long dialogues about it. The whole of Harold's talk makes sense if you see it as I'm explaining. It doesn't make sense if Harold is trying to explain that it wasn't plagiarism after all because Paul got it all from the Astral. Then why would Harold need to clean up a mess?
                    > > >
                    > > > But the real problem here is simply that Harold never said what David accused him of saying. Harold never even suggests it. It was simply a mistaken interpretation.
                    > > >
                    > > > David wasn't the only one to make this mistake. I can see why some might draw the wrong conclusion, but since I had firsthand experience with it, I know that the last thing Harold was trying to do was cover something up. Quite the opposite.
                    > > >
                    > > > I hope this helps.
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks.
                    > > >
                    > > > Doug Marman.
                    > > >
                    > > > ***
                    > > >
                    > > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Sorry those links didn't work. One link was to an a.r.e. archive link to all the examples of plagiarisms that I've seen to date - which can be found by searching the a.r.e. archive for: Ref# 41391720. Example:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/Ref%23$2041391720
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The second link (that didn't work) was to the a.r.e. thread from where the quotes I posted can be found. Example (and about the growing list):
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                    > > > > researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                    > > > > turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to
                    > > > > say that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I
                    > > > > [Doug Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the
                    > > > > records. Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past,
                    > > > > which Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough
                    > > > > study.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                    > > > > about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                    > > > > further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and
                    > > > > worked for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early
                    > > > > days. So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [...] A few
                    > > > > months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                    > > > > began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                    > > > > share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                    > > > > anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                    > > > > unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                    > > > > see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [... .]"
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it
                    > > > > has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my
                    > > > > book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering
                    > > > > another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the
                    > > > > correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with
                    > > > > me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
                    > > > > that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was
                    > > > > quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
                    > > > > swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
                    > > > > with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
                    > > > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral
                    > > > > Library dream as well. [... .]"
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
                    > > > > Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]
                    > > > >
                    > > > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Those were the two quotes, I believe, that I referred to. The a.r.e. link page is here:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > http://tinyurl.com/b7svn87
                    > > > >
                    > > > > As for the T.S. link, I don't think they work any longer. Personally, I suspect somebody sabotaged the T.S. site. There is a redirect link which prevents most of the original pages from coming up.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I believe maybe I copied ALL of the old T.S. B.B. posts, and from going to wayback machine, from old archive pages. So if anybody in the future wants copies of T.S. B.B. posts just let me know.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Btw, I just noticed that I gave the wrong date for that D.M. post. It was not from January 2003, but January 3rd, 2004. I have a copy if anybody wants to see it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hello Etznab,
                    > > > > > What's this pertain to?
                    > > > > > I wasn't able to pull these
                    > > > > > sites up.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > What's Marman saying
                    > > > > > about "the Astral Library
                    > > > > > dream"(of PT's?) being
                    > > > > > misunderstood... in what
                    > > > > > way?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > What is the interpretation?
                    > > > > > It's more than a metaphor
                    > > > > > correct?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Didn't Klemp say that he,
                    > > > > > too, visited the Astral Library
                    > > > > > and saw Ancient manuscripts
                    > > > > > with Twitchell's handwritten
                    > > > > > notes scribbled in the margins.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > It seems that only EKists have
                    > > > > > access to this specific Astral
                    > > > > > Plane Library and that it's a
                    > > > > > really old style (ancient/wisdom
                    > > > > > filled) library that, mostly, EKists
                    > > > > > are taught to dream of and
                    > > > > > conjure.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
                    > > > > > as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
                    > > > > > So why believe anything Twitchell
                    > > > > > said?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > This is what bothered Klemp.
                    > > > > > Klemp realized that Twitchell
                    > > > > > was worse than Darwin! The
                    > > > > > Astral Library story/dream was
                    > > > > > B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
                    > > > > > out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
                    > > > > > and Gross did. He rationalizes
                    > > > > > it all away by thinking that he
                    > > > > > is giving a select group of New
                    > > > > > Agers something to believe in.
                    > > > > > HK's giving them much of what
                    > > > > > the other religions give: Faith;
                    > > > > > Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
                    > > > > > While taking their money and
                    > > > > > being seen as Pope like by
                    > > > > > being infallible and beyond
                    > > > > > reproach.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Prometheus
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > "etznab18" wrote:
                    > > > > > A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
                    > > > > > misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
                    > > > > > I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
                    > > > > > but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
                    > > > > > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
                    > > > > > gave those talks or started writing about it.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
                    > > > > > hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
                    > > > > > happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
                    > > > > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream
                    > > > > > as well. [... .]"
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
                    > > > > > More Questions to Doug Marman]
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > My contributions to the "growing list".
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
                    > > > > > r/Ref%23$2041391720
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ***
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
                    > > > > > lGt1TvUM3Q
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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