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Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta

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  • etznab18
    Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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      Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a number of things. Another study suggested that "even one's political leanings are largely shaped by genes (not by 'free will,' or choice.)"

      OK? Got the picture now? Combine that with the first paragraph of Harold's article and with the other paragraphs that mentioned free will, illusion and influence of genes.

      My impression from the article was that genes were considered to have great influence upon people's behaviors, even moreso than upbringing, or life's experiences.

      Now, I've seen studies where twins grow up in different environments where one gets cancer and the other doesn't. Also, I think there is a lot of "dark space" about the physiology of genes (just like there is a lot of "dark space" in the universe ... the majority, some think.) Genes, IMO, don't matter so much as whether the genes are "turned on" or not. There are lots and lots of genes (or DNA) that remain inactive I think, what they call junk DNA, and my guess is that life experiences and upbringing DO have an effect on shaping individual character. Even with identical twins.

      The idea that genes have such a great influence on behavior is just relative to any number of other things, IMO.

      I had to wonder, was Harold speaking about Eugenics? or something similar?

      Consider the following:

      Doubts on genetic mutation triggered by inheritance

      "The first major challenge to conventional eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was made in 1915 by Thomas Hunt Morgan, who demonstrated the event of genetic mutation occurring outside of inheritance involving the discovery of the hatching of a fruit fly with white eyes from a family and ancestry of the red-eyed Drosophila melanogaster species of fruit fly.[36] Morgan claimed that this demonstrated that major genetic changes occurred outside of inheritance and that the concept of eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was, to some extent, not completely scientifically accurate.[36]

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Doubts_on_genetic_mutation_triggered_by_inheritance

      "A gene is a molecular unit of heredity of a living organism. It is a name given to some stretches of DNA and RNA that code for a polypeptide or for an RNA chain that has a function in the organism. [... .]"

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes#Changing_concept

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
      >
      > Hello I AM and All,
      > Actually Klemp did cite some
      > studies and I Googled it myself
      > and saw that there is proof that
      > identical twins share similarities.
      > The mirrored behaviors could
      > be genetical with brain frequencies
      > and brain function being the
      > same due to a quantum mechanical
      > influence. I threw that last one
      > in on my own, but who knows?
      >
      > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
      > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
      > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
      > use the Lords of Karma ruse
      > which, BTW, is not solely owned
      > by Eckankar.
      >
      > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
      > to get new members by promising
      > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
      > Liberation" but then he switches
      > it up and demands (suggests)
      > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
      > Team participation in order to,
      > possibly, get promoted and receive
      > "Spiritual Rewards."
      >
      > It is funny that Klemp claims to
      > take "Free Will" away from Souls
      > who join Eckankar and follow him.
      > Does this mean that those Souls
      > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
      > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > iam999freedom wrote:
      > Hi Prometheus,
      > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
      > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
      > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
      > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
      > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
      > the environment.
      >
      > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
      > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
      > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
      >
      > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
      > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
      > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
      >
      > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
      > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
      > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
      > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
      >
      > I AM
      >
      > prometheus_973" wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello I Am,
      > > Okay, let me give it
      > > a shot and use some
      > > excerpts etc.
      > >
      > > HK's talking about
      > > psychological studies
      > > using identical twins
      > > (not conjoined) that
      > > were separated soon
      > > after birth. They grew
      > > up elsewhere and had
      > > different influences
      > > but dressed the same
      > > and had the same type
      > > of dog and gave the
      > > dog the same name etc.,
      > > etc.
      > >
      > > Thus, it seems that
      > > Free Will relies upon
      > > genetics (nature) more
      > > than it does upon nurture,
      > > although, HK says that
      > > Yogi Berra stated that
      > > "in theory, practice doesn't
      > > matter; in practice, it does."
      > >
      > > BTW- According to Klemp
      > > "The Lords of Karma have
      > > selected a body with the
      > > appropriate genes for each
      > > student."
      > >
      > > However, HK has somewhat
      > > contradicted what is in CH.
      > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
      > > that "the spiritual workers
      > > created man and placed
      > > within him a living imperishable
      > > Spirit, called Soul."
      > >
      > > There is no other mention
      > > of these "spiritual workers."
      > >
      > > Anywho-
      > >
      > > HK is so clever the way
      > > he'll twist a quote to add
      > > even more confusion to
      > > his message of absolute
      > > servitude and obedience.
      > >
      > > I counted HK using "But"
      > > four times. In an old H.I.
      > > Letter he said never to
      > > use "But" with one another
      > > and that it was a nail in
      > > the coffin of invention and
      > > took away from what was
      > > previously said.
      > >
      > > HK:
      > > "BUT they dug in their heels
      > > at the finding that such twins'
      > > IQs were nearly as similar as
      > > their heights."
      > >
      > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
      > > set. A kind owner may let it out
      > > into the room on occasion. BUT
      > > it is still in a house."
      > >
      > > "Researchers, too, can advance
      > > only to a fixed point in their studies
      > > of what elements make up a whole
      > > individual. BUT they do not have
      > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
      > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
      > >
      > > Funny that Klemp states that he
      > > holds "a magical key" to control
      > > others like a Black Magician would.
      > >
      > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
      > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
      > > must have the right kind and amount
      > > of daily experiences."
      > >
      > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
      > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
      > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
      > > the "right kind and amount of daily
      > > experiences."
      > >
      > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
      > > doesn't like science and psychologists
      > > since getting locked up in an asylum
      > > and having to "play-the-game" to
      > > be released early.
      > >
      > > HK states that "Real free will rests
      > > entirely on trusting the Master's
      > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
      > > many choices to make in all things
      > > human and divine."
      > >
      > > In other words do as I say not
      > > as I do and there is no such
      > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
      > > Does that kind sound like Cult
      > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
      > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
      > > that "He gives suggestions" and
      > > "seldom does he issue directives...
      > > True Free Will of an individual
      > > stands upon the Mahanta's
      > > guidance."
      > >
      > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
      > > as he speaks from experience:
      > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
      > > ingrained ideas about patterns
      > > against them. A subject thinks
      > > he has the quick mind and eyes
      > > to catch a Magician in an act,
      > > even while he is being unburdened
      > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
      > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
      > > played upon people by illusion."
      > >
      > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
      > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
      > > exercises," but write those snail-
      > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
      > > thinking and so I can use those
      > > stories for my next book.
      > >
      > >
      > > iam999freedom wrote:
      > > Hi Prometheus,
      > >
      > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
      > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
      > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
      > >
      > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
      > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
      > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
      > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
      > > different character than the other."
      > >
      > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
      > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
      > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
      > >
      > > I still have yet to receive a response.
      > >
      > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
      > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > > I AM
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > prometheus_wrote:
      > > >
      > > > The December 2012
      > > > Eckankar Mystic World
      > > > in the Ask the Master
      > > > section are two interesting
      > > > questions and answers.
      > > >
      > > > The first question has
      > > > to do with Stress and
      > > > how to overcome it.
      > > >
      > > > HK's answer is wishy-
      > > > washy at best. He says
      > > > that stress is "very
      > > > uncomfortable... Yet
      > > > stress is a good teacher."
      > > >
      > > > Klemp goes on to say
      > > > that people increase
      > > > their tolerance to stress
      > > > by eating healthy, getting
      > > > enough sleep, and by
      > > > "Reducing our overuse
      > > > of electronic devices."
      > > >
      > > > In other words it seems
      > > > Klemp is saying, in a
      > > > roundabout way, to use
      > > > moderation. After all,
      > > > he's saying to reduce
      > > > "overuse."
      > > >
      > > > Then, again, how does
      > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
      > > > not use their computer
      > > > 8 hours a day?
      > > >
      > > > The next question involves
      > > > reincarnation. This guy's
      > > > wife gave birth to a baby
      > > > boy and two days later his
      > > > mother translated (died).
      > > > He indirectly asked if this
      > > > new baby was his mother.
      > > >
      > > > Instead of giving this EKist
      > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
      > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
      > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
      > > > When it comes to rebirth,
      > > > anything at all can happen...
      > > > Whichever Soul is now your
      > > > son, everything is in accord
      > > > with what is best for all around."
      > > >
      > > > Prometheus
      > >
      >
    • Non
      Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 12, 2013
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        Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated as far as religion may be growing. :)

        Non ;)

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
        >
        > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.
        >
        > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.
        >
        > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
        >
        > Non ;)
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi I am,
        > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
        > >
        > > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > From: iam999freedom
        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
        > >
        > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
        > >
        > > I AM
        > >
        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
        > > there are always others
        > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
        > > busy hiding their
        > > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
        > > other leaders of
        > > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
        > > >
        > > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > From: prometheus_973
        > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
        > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >  
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
        > > > I'm not so sure that humans
        > > > will ever become like, God,
        > > > our imagined or possible
        > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
        > > > not in any lifetime soon.
        > > >
        > > > But, it could be that the
        > > > universe(s) just happened
        > > > and that the remnants of
        > > > other life forms were spread
        > > > to this planet, and others,
        > > > via space rubble... from
        > > > destroyed civilizations
        > > > and planets. Or, was it an
        > > > intentional seeding by an
        > > > advanced race... which was,
        > > > itself, seeded by another
        > > > advanced race etc.
        > > >
        > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
        > > > experiences we have
        > > > are the result of
        > > > interaction with the
        > > > quantum mechanical
        > > > field?
        > > >
        > > > Anyway, it seems to me
        > > > that what really matters
        > > > are relationships. It's our
        > > > relationships with others,
        > > > even strangers, that matter
        > > > most. This is how we really
        > > > learn and grow. Loving
        > > > relationships are valuable.
        > > >
        > > > Klemp, and others like
        > > > him, are: liars; posers;
        > > > have arrested development;
        > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
        > > > and are even psychopathic.
        > > > They are incapable of learning,
        > > > or caring about others (are
        > > > unloving) and attempt to
        > > > impede social progress and
        > > > justice. They use the rest of
        > > > us for their own personal
        > > > greed and selfish desires.
        > > >
        > > > Then, again, this strife and
        > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
        > > > created can make life interesting
        > > > and a challenge, although,
        > > > it can/will also be physically
        > > > and emotionally painful.
        > > >
        > > > But, having a regular life
        > > > without additional commitments
        > > > and involvements can also
        > > > offer rewarding experiences
        > > > and insights. We are never
        > > > all that alone. However, I'm
        > > > not sure how peace of any
        > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
        > > > will ever happen in a world
        > > > controlled by sociopaths.
        > > >
        > > > One must care about everyone
        > > > and have caring relationships
        > > > with people in order for humankind
        > > > to advance and survive. To me,
        > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
        > > > I almost included animals, too,
        > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
        > > > include "caring" about them (all)
        > > > too.
        > > >
        > > > How can one really "care" about
        > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
        > > > except to keep them away from
        > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
        > > > people.
        > > >
        > > > When one thinks about it the
        > > > definition of what's "normal"
        > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
        > > > seem to be more pathological
        > > > than the introverts don't you
        > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
        > > > to force us introverts to become
        > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
        > > > loves company I suppose or is
        > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
        > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
        > > > is more intimidating.
        > > >
        > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
        > > > to worship and viewed as being
        > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
        > > > from "us" being involved in our
        > > > lives because of the differences
        > > > we see in one another. This is
        > > > why there are so many different
        > > > religious dogmas of what's right
        > > > and wrong.
        > > >
        > > > Therefore, the differences in the
        > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
        > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
        > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
        > > > nor take responsibility for our own
        > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
        > > > use God as our scape goat.
        > > >
        > > > There are major flaws with all
        > > > of these religions and the so-called
        > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
        > > > all hearsay and the only thing
        > > > that, supposedly, gives them
        > > > validation is that these various
        > > > people in history/myth that the
        > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
        > > > to have said or done some nice,
        > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
        > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
        > > > time (being ancient) seems to
        > > > have given them credibility, because
        > > > it is believed and taught that
        > > > only Divine Intercession could
        > > > have been the source for their
        > > > Divine Inspiration.
        > > >
        > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
        > > > today, who are not even followers
        > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
        > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
        > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
        > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
        > > > of these major and minor religions.
        > > > Many of these people inspired
        > > > others by never giving up in time
        > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
        > > > there weren't many other choices.
        > > > Even those who did give up and
        > > > had bad things befall them, still,
        > > > maintained their faith and this
        > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
        > > > or saints. If this is the standard
        > > > for religions there are an awful
        > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
        > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
        > > >
        > > > Prometheus
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
        > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
        > > > with unconditional love for the
        > > > master and you get a submissive
        > > > control pattern as your reward.
        > > > Buyer beware!
        > > >
        > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
        > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
        > > > an experiment to see if we
        > > > are all capable of evolving
        > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
        > > > Are we to become more than
        > > > merely a divine thought?
        > > > Maybe there is something
        > > > more to that piece of a mirror
        > > > analogy."
        > > >
        > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
        > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
        > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
        > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
        > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
        > > >
        > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
        > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
        > > >
        > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
        > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
        > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
        > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
        > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
        > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
        > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
        > > >
        > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
        > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
        > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
        > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
        > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
        > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
        > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
        > > >
        > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
        > > > that it would ever be necessary.
        > > >
        > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
        > > >
        > > > I AM
        > > >
        > > > prometheus wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hello Non and All,
        > > > > Thanks for the insightful
        > > > > summary. I was exploring
        > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
        > > > > charismatic Christian churches
        > > > > and saw a reference to a
        > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
        > > > >
        > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
        > > > >
        > > > > This person is mentioned
        > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
        > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
        > > > > Faith.
        > > > >
        > > > > Even when God seems to
        > > > > turn his back and: causes
        > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
        > > > > lost; cities attacked and
        > > > > overrun by your enemies;
        > > > > people brutalized, tortured
        > > > > and killed, one is to have
        > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
        > > > > reward for keeping this
        > > > > faith. God's ego needs
        > > > > you to believe in him
        > > > > regardless of what pain
        > > > > he allows to befall you.
        > > > >
        > > > > One needs to project
        > > > > a sense of hope in order
        > > > > to better endure life, as
        > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
        > > > >
        > > > > And, it's easier to face these
        > > > > challenges when you believe
        > > > > that God is on your side and
        > > > > not that of your oppressor.
        > > > >
        > > > > However, does God really
        > > > > take sides? It seems that God
        > > > > is/was created in man's image.
        > > > >
        > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
        > > > > an experiment to see if we
        > > > > are all capable of evolving
        > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
        > > > > Are we to become more than
        > > > > merely a divine thought?
        > > > > Maybe there is something
        > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
        > > > > analogy.
        > > > >
        > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
        > > > > has the belief that you (and your
        > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
        > > > > deserved the punishments as
        > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
        > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
        > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
        > > > > most religions see everyday
        > > > > living and hardships as a test
        > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
        > > > > to donate money to support
        > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
        > > > > says and promises the same
        > > > > or similar things in the imagined
        > > > > hereafter.
        > > > >
        > > > > Plus, each religion has always
        > > > > blamed the non-believers for
        > > > > the sins that they suffer under
        > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
        > > > > and Klemp is more like these
        > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
        > > > > admit.
        > > > >
        > > > > Well, got to go now....
        > > > > I just had some thoughts
        > > > > to share.
        > > > >
        > > > > Prometheus
        > > > >
        > > > "Non" wrote:
        > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
        > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
        > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
        > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
        > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
        > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
        > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
        > > > answers to ask the master etc.
        > > > >
        > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
        > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
        > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
        > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
        > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
        > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
        > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
        > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
        > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
        > > > >
        > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
        > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
        > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
        > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
        > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
        > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
        > > > >
        > > > > Non ;)
        > > > >
        > > > > prometheus wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hello Janice,
        > > > > Yes, one would think that
        > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
        > > > > would, at least, attempt
        > > > > to live up to his PR, but
        > > > > that's not the case with
        > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
        > > > > out there by demonstrating
        > > > > his powers? It's not like
        > > > > he announced to the
        > > > > whole world that he was....
        > > > > oh wait, he did!
        > > > >
        > > > > That was a long time ago
        > > > > and he never did make
        > > > > any predictions as most
        > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
        > > > > made some predictions.
        > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
        > > > > haven't noticed and don't
        > > > > mine and that's why he
        > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
        > > > > to preform his responsibilities
        > > > > as a real prophet.
        > > > >
        > > > > Instead, Harold is very
        > > > > cautious of being too
        > > > > direct and understood.
        > > > > He'd rather have EKists
        > > > > fill-in the blanks and
        > > > > imagine what they want,
        > > > > need and expect until
        > > > > they go too far and have
        > > > > to have a behaviour
        > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
        > > > > That's why Klemp usually
        > > > > gives a very one dimensional
        > > > > perspective when he tells
        > > > > a story.
        > > > >
        > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
        > > > > why put too much
        > > > > effort into it! And, he
        > > > > figures that all he needs
        > > > > to do is the KISS thing
        > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
        > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
        > > > > will substitute Soul for
        > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
        > > > >
        > > > > It's really quite amazing
        > > > > how simple Klemp's
        > > > > redundant message is.
        > > > > If EKists would just compare
        > > > > Klemp's simple minded
        > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
        > > > > leaders one would have
        > > > > to wonder what they see
        > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
        > > > > but they just laugh at his
        > > > > quirkiness because he's
        > > > > operating on so many
        > > > > high planes of consciousness
        > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
        > > > >
        > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
        > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
        > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
        > > > > isn't even in the same ball
        > > > > park with the current Dali
        > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
        > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
        > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
        > > > > religion while Eckankar
        > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
        > > > > But, EKists need to compare
        > > > > the two leaders and how
        > > > > they present themselves
        > > > > and what they have to say.
        > > > >
        > > > > Will ECKists make the
        > > > > comparison? No, of course
        > > > > not! They won't even allow
        > > > > the door to be opened a
        > > > > crack because some light
        > > > > might get in and show
        > > > > them the Truth. They can't
        > > > > handle the Truth and
        > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
        > > > > It's much easier, besides,
        > > > > what would they replace
        > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
        > > > > responsibility to think for
        > > > > oneself and exercise free
        > > > > will. And, it would make
        > > > > life too lonely to lose all
        > > > > of those EK friends.
        > > > >
        > > > > Prometheus
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
        > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
        > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
        > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
        > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
        > > > > charlatan to me.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Prometheus wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > The December 2012
        > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
        > > > > in the Ask the Master
        > > > > section are two interesting
        > > > > questions and answers.
        > > > >
        > > > > The first question has
        > > > > to do with Stress and
        > > > > how to overcome it.
        > > > >
        > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
        > > > > washy at best. He says
        > > > > that stress is "very
        > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
        > > > > stress is a good teacher."
        > > > >
        > > > > Klemp goes on to say
        > > > > that people can increase
        > > > > their tolerance to stress
        > > > > by eating healthy, getting
        > > > > enough sleep, and by
        > > > > "Reducing our overuse
        > > > > of electronic devices."
        > > > >
        > > > > In other words it seems
        > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
        > > > > roundabout way, to use
        > > > > moderation. After all,
        > > > > he's saying to reduce
        > > > > "overuse."
        > > > >
        > > > > Then, again, how does
        > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
        > > > > not use their computer
        > > > > 8 hours a day?
        > > > >
        > > > > The next question involves
        > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
        > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
        > > > > boy and two days later his
        > > > > mother translated (died).
        > > > > He indirectly asked if this
        > > > > new baby was his mother.
        > > > >
        > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
        > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
        > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
        > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
        > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
        > > > > anything at all can happen...
        > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
        > > > > son, everything is in accord
        > > > > with what is best for all around."
        > > > >
        > > > > Prometheus
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Non and All, Actually, having good interactive relationships with other people isn t necessarily about making new friends nor having the same religious,
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
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          Hello Non and All,
          Actually, having good
          interactive relationships
          with other people isn't
          necessarily about making
          new friends nor having
          the same religious, political,
          and lifestyle beliefs.
          Trying to get others
          to follow or accept our
          beliefs isn't the goal.

          It's more about being
          "friendly" to/with/for
          others and, thus, to
          ourselves. Usually, being
          friendly and promoting
          "friendship" (versus making
          friends) isn't that hard
          to accomplish. And, if
          it is, we need to make
          more of an effort and
          figure out what it is that's
          making this difficult.

          Smiles, politeness, sharing
          some small talk, and recognizing
          the other person by looking
          directly at them goes a
          long way.

          We can have a friendship
          (i.e. relationship) with a
          clerk whose full name we
          might not ever know. It's
          fun to simply, and naturally,
          smile and be friendly to
          strangers and acquaintances
          without expecting anything
          else. It takes the pressure
          off everyone when we keep
          it light. This lightness of
          Being will help to improve
          our lives and that of others.

          It's true that we will never
          be able to be friendly with
          some people. And, we won't
          always be friends with those
          people we know now. Some
          people don't deserve our
          efforts and will never deserve
          it. They are enemies to what
          we believe in.

          And, not all relationships
          work out nor need to be
          continued for the sake of
          all those involved. Sometimes
          people just have to let go
          and move on even with
          family members. But, these
          are usually relationships
          that have become complicated
          via various factors and are
          usually more one-sided
          due to a lack of communication,
          closed mindedness and
          hurt feelings.

          Our positive relationships
          with nature, to animals,
          and to other people are
          connections that make our
          lives worth living.


          Prometheus





          "Non" wrote:
          Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
          to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
          done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
          friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
          challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
          as far as religion may be growing. :)

          Non ;)

          "Non" wrote:
          >
          > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
          teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
          lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
          possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
          inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
          act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
          In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
          otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
          even a twisted moral imperative.
          >
          > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
          direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
          point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
          like a small intervention.
          >
          > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
          situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
          and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
          outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
          at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
          and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
          heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
          >
          > Non ;)
          >
          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          > >
          Hi I am,
          It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
          we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
          So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
          possible and let them go on their way.
          Thanks for your comments.
          > >
          I AM wrote:
          > >
          Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
          regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
          meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
          > >
          > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
          sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
          point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
          > >
          > > I AM
          > >
          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          > > >
          Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
          it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
          there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
          talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
          happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
          something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
          people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
          people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
          came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
          appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
          is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
          about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
          good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
          > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
          doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
          still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
          willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
          motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
          of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
          everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
          by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
          strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
          broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
          takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
          the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
          After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
          > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
          hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
          admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
          sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
          knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
          have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
          even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
          heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
          rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
          Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
          others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
          pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
          that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
          use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
          tonight.
          > > >

          prometheus wrote:
          > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
          > > > I'm not so sure that humans
          > > > will ever become like, God,
          > > > our imagined or possible
          > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
          > > > not in any lifetime soon.
          > > >
          > > > But, it could be that the
          > > > universe(s) just happened
          > > > and that the remnants of
          > > > other life forms were spread
          > > > to this planet, and others,
          > > > via space rubble... from
          > > > destroyed civilizations
          > > > and planets. Or, was it an
          > > > intentional seeding by an
          > > > advanced race... which was,
          > > > itself, seeded by another
          > > > advanced race etc.
          > > >
          > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
          > > > experiences we have
          > > > are the result of
          > > > interaction with the
          > > > quantum mechanical
          > > > field?
          > > >
          > > > Anyway, it seems to me
          > > > that what really matters
          > > > are relationships. It's our
          > > > relationships with others,
          > > > even strangers, that matter
          > > > most. This is how we really
          > > > learn and grow. Loving
          > > > relationships are valuable.
          > > >
          > > > Klemp, and others like
          > > > him, are: liars; posers;
          > > > have arrested development;
          > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
          > > > and are even psychopathic.
          > > > They are incapable of learning,
          > > > or caring about others (are
          > > > unloving) and attempt to
          > > > impede social progress and
          > > > justice. They use the rest of
          > > > us for their own personal
          > > > greed and selfish desires.
          > > >
          > > > Then, again, this strife and
          > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
          > > > created can make life interesting
          > > > and a challenge, although,
          > > > it can/will also be physically
          > > > and emotionally painful.
          > > >
          > > > But, having a regular life
          > > > without additional commitments
          > > > and involvements can also
          > > > offer rewarding experiences
          > > > and insights. We are never
          > > > all that alone. However, I'm
          > > > not sure how peace of any
          > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
          > > > will ever happen in a world
          > > > controlled by sociopaths.
          > > >
          > > > One must care about everyone
          > > > and have caring relationships
          > > > with people in order for humankind
          > > > to advance and survive. To me,
          > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
          > > > I almost included animals, too,
          > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
          > > > include "caring" about them (all)
          > > > too.
          > > >
          > > > How can one really "care" about
          > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
          > > > except to keep them away from
          > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
          > > > people.
          > > >
          > > > When one thinks about it the
          > > > definition of what's "normal"
          > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
          > > > seem to be more pathological
          > > > than the introverts don't you
          > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
          > > > to force us introverts to become
          > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
          > > > loves company I suppose or is
          > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
          > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
          > > > is more intimidating.
          > > >
          > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
          > > > to worship and viewed as being
          > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
          > > > from "us" being involved in our
          > > > lives because of the differences
          > > > we see in one another. This is
          > > > why there are so many different
          > > > religious dogmas of what's right
          > > > and wrong.
          > > >
          > > > Therefore, the differences in the
          > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
          > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
          > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
          > > > nor take responsibility for our own
          > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
          > > > use God as our scape goat.
          > > >
          > > > There are major flaws with all
          > > > of these religions and the so-called
          > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
          > > > all hearsay and the only thing
          > > > that, supposedly, gives them
          > > > validation is that these various
          > > > people in history/myth that the
          > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
          > > > to have said or done some nice,
          > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
          > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
          > > > time (being ancient) seems to
          > > > have given them credibility, because
          > > > it is believed and taught that
          > > > only Divine Intercession could
          > > > have been the source for their
          > > > Divine Inspiration.
          > > >
          > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
          > > > today, who are not even followers
          > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
          > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
          > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
          > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
          > > > of these major and minor religions.
          > > > Many of these people inspired
          > > > others by never giving up in time
          > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
          > > > there weren't many other choices.
          > > > Even those who did give up and
          > > > had bad things befall them, still,
          > > > maintained their faith and this
          > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
          > > > or saints. If this is the standard
          > > > for religions there are an awful
          > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
          > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
          > > >
          > > > Prometheus
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
          > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
          > > > with unconditional love for the
          > > > master and you get a submissive
          > > > control pattern as your reward.
          > > > Buyer beware!
          > > >
          > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
          > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
          > > > an experiment to see if we
          > > > are all capable of evolving
          > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
          > > > Are we to become more than
          > > > merely a divine thought?
          > > > Maybe there is something
          > > > more to that piece of a mirror
          > > > analogy."
        • Non
          Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
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            Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
            probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
            other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
            doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.

            Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
            a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
            Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
            strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
            (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
            highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
            your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.

            Non ;)

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
            >
            > Hello Non and All,
            > Actually, having good
            > interactive relationships
            > with other people isn't
            > necessarily about making
            > new friends nor having
            > the same religious, political,
            > and lifestyle beliefs.
            > Trying to get others
            > to follow or accept our
            > beliefs isn't the goal.
            >
            > It's more about being
            > "friendly" to/with/for
            > others and, thus, to
            > ourselves. Usually, being
            > friendly and promoting
            > "friendship" (versus making
            > friends) isn't that hard
            > to accomplish. And, if
            > it is, we need to make
            > more of an effort and
            > figure out what it is that's
            > making this difficult.
            >
            > Smiles, politeness, sharing
            > some small talk, and recognizing
            > the other person by looking
            > directly at them goes a
            > long way.
            >
            > We can have a friendship
            > (i.e. relationship) with a
            > clerk whose full name we
            > might not ever know. It's
            > fun to simply, and naturally,
            > smile and be friendly to
            > strangers and acquaintances
            > without expecting anything
            > else. It takes the pressure
            > off everyone when we keep
            > it light. This lightness of
            > Being will help to improve
            > our lives and that of others.
            >
            > It's true that we will never
            > be able to be friendly with
            > some people. And, we won't
            > always be friends with those
            > people we know now. Some
            > people don't deserve our
            > efforts and will never deserve
            > it. They are enemies to what
            > we believe in.
            >
            > And, not all relationships
            > work out nor need to be
            > continued for the sake of
            > all those involved. Sometimes
            > people just have to let go
            > and move on even with
            > family members. But, these
            > are usually relationships
            > that have become complicated
            > via various factors and are
            > usually more one-sided
            > due to a lack of communication,
            > closed mindedness and
            > hurt feelings.
            >
            > Our positive relationships
            > with nature, to animals,
            > and to other people are
            > connections that make our
            > lives worth living.
            >
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > "Non" wrote:
            > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
            > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
            > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
            > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
            > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
            > as far as religion may be growing. :)
            >
            > Non ;)
            >
            > "Non" wrote:
            > >
            > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
            > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
            > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
            > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
            > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
            > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
            > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
            > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
            > even a twisted moral imperative.
            > >
            > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
            > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
            > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
            > like a small intervention.
            > >
            > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
            > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
            > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
            > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
            > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
            > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
            > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
            > >
            > > Non ;)
            > >
            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            > > >
            > Hi I am,
            > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
            > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
            > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
            > possible and let them go on their way.
            > Thanks for your comments.
            > > >
            > I AM wrote:
            > > >
            > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
            > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
            > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
            > > >
            > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
            > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
            > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
            > > >
            > > > I AM
            > > >
            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            > > > >
            > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
            > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
            > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
            > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
            > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
            > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
            > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
            > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
            > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
            > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
            > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
            > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
            > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
            > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
            > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
            > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
            > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
            > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
            > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
            > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
            > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
            > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
            > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
            > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
            > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
            > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
            > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
            > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
            > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
            > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
            > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
            > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
            > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
            > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
            > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
            > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
            > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
            > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
            > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
            > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
            > tonight.
            > > > >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
            > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
            > > > > will ever become like, God,
            > > > > our imagined or possible
            > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
            > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
            > > > >
            > > > > But, it could be that the
            > > > > universe(s) just happened
            > > > > and that the remnants of
            > > > > other life forms were spread
            > > > > to this planet, and others,
            > > > > via space rubble... from
            > > > > destroyed civilizations
            > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
            > > > > intentional seeding by an
            > > > > advanced race... which was,
            > > > > itself, seeded by another
            > > > > advanced race etc.
            > > > >
            > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
            > > > > experiences we have
            > > > > are the result of
            > > > > interaction with the
            > > > > quantum mechanical
            > > > > field?
            > > > >
            > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
            > > > > that what really matters
            > > > > are relationships. It's our
            > > > > relationships with others,
            > > > > even strangers, that matter
            > > > > most. This is how we really
            > > > > learn and grow. Loving
            > > > > relationships are valuable.
            > > > >
            > > > > Klemp, and others like
            > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
            > > > > have arrested development;
            > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
            > > > > and are even psychopathic.
            > > > > They are incapable of learning,
            > > > > or caring about others (are
            > > > > unloving) and attempt to
            > > > > impede social progress and
            > > > > justice. They use the rest of
            > > > > us for their own personal
            > > > > greed and selfish desires.
            > > > >
            > > > > Then, again, this strife and
            > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
            > > > > created can make life interesting
            > > > > and a challenge, although,
            > > > > it can/will also be physically
            > > > > and emotionally painful.
            > > > >
            > > > > But, having a regular life
            > > > > without additional commitments
            > > > > and involvements can also
            > > > > offer rewarding experiences
            > > > > and insights. We are never
            > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
            > > > > not sure how peace of any
            > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
            > > > > will ever happen in a world
            > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
            > > > >
            > > > > One must care about everyone
            > > > > and have caring relationships
            > > > > with people in order for humankind
            > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
            > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
            > > > > I almost included animals, too,
            > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
            > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
            > > > > too.
            > > > >
            > > > > How can one really "care" about
            > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
            > > > > except to keep them away from
            > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
            > > > > people.
            > > > >
            > > > > When one thinks about it the
            > > > > definition of what's "normal"
            > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
            > > > > seem to be more pathological
            > > > > than the introverts don't you
            > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
            > > > > to force us introverts to become
            > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
            > > > > loves company I suppose or is
            > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
            > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
            > > > > is more intimidating.
            > > > >
            > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
            > > > > to worship and viewed as being
            > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
            > > > > from "us" being involved in our
            > > > > lives because of the differences
            > > > > we see in one another. This is
            > > > > why there are so many different
            > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
            > > > > and wrong.
            > > > >
            > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
            > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
            > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
            > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
            > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
            > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
            > > > > use God as our scape goat.
            > > > >
            > > > > There are major flaws with all
            > > > > of these religions and the so-called
            > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
            > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
            > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
            > > > > validation is that these various
            > > > > people in history/myth that the
            > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
            > > > > to have said or done some nice,
            > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
            > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
            > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
            > > > > have given them credibility, because
            > > > > it is believed and taught that
            > > > > only Divine Intercession could
            > > > > have been the source for their
            > > > > Divine Inspiration.
            > > > >
            > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
            > > > > today, who are not even followers
            > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
            > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
            > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
            > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
            > > > > of these major and minor religions.
            > > > > Many of these people inspired
            > > > > others by never giving up in time
            > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
            > > > > there weren't many other choices.
            > > > > Even those who did give up and
            > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
            > > > > maintained their faith and this
            > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
            > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
            > > > > for religions there are an awful
            > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
            > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
            > > > >
            > > > > Prometheus
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
            > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
            > > > > with unconditional love for the
            > > > > master and you get a submissive
            > > > > control pattern as your reward.
            > > > > Buyer beware!
            > > > >
            > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
            > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
            > > > > an experiment to see if we
            > > > > are all capable of evolving
            > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
            > > > > Are we to become more than
            > > > > merely a divine thought?
            > > > > Maybe there is something
            > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
            > > > > analogy."
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Really! This is a valid spiritual technique that, unlike those HK hands out and sells, actually works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 18, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Really! This is a valid spiritual
              technique that, unlike those
              HK hands out and sells, actually
              works:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
              >
              > Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
              > probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
              > other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
              > doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.
              >
              > Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
              > a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
              > Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
              > strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
              > (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
              > highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
              > your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.
              >
              > Non ;)
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Non and All,
              > > Actually, having good
              > > interactive relationships
              > > with other people isn't
              > > necessarily about making
              > > new friends nor having
              > > the same religious, political,
              > > and lifestyle beliefs.
              > > Trying to get others
              > > to follow or accept our
              > > beliefs isn't the goal.
              > >
              > > It's more about being
              > > "friendly" to/with/for
              > > others and, thus, to
              > > ourselves. Usually, being
              > > friendly and promoting
              > > "friendship" (versus making
              > > friends) isn't that hard
              > > to accomplish. And, if
              > > it is, we need to make
              > > more of an effort and
              > > figure out what it is that's
              > > making this difficult.
              > >
              > > Smiles, politeness, sharing
              > > some small talk, and recognizing
              > > the other person by looking
              > > directly at them goes a
              > > long way.
              > >
              > > We can have a friendship
              > > (i.e. relationship) with a
              > > clerk whose full name we
              > > might not ever know. It's
              > > fun to simply, and naturally,
              > > smile and be friendly to
              > > strangers and acquaintances
              > > without expecting anything
              > > else. It takes the pressure
              > > off everyone when we keep
              > > it light. This lightness of
              > > Being will help to improve
              > > our lives and that of others.
              > >
              > > It's true that we will never
              > > be able to be friendly with
              > > some people. And, we won't
              > > always be friends with those
              > > people we know now. Some
              > > people don't deserve our
              > > efforts and will never deserve
              > > it. They are enemies to what
              > > we believe in.
              > >
              > > And, not all relationships
              > > work out nor need to be
              > > continued for the sake of
              > > all those involved. Sometimes
              > > people just have to let go
              > > and move on even with
              > > family members. But, these
              > > are usually relationships
              > > that have become complicated
              > > via various factors and are
              > > usually more one-sided
              > > due to a lack of communication,
              > > closed mindedness and
              > > hurt feelings.
              > >
              > > Our positive relationships
              > > with nature, to animals,
              > > and to other people are
              > > connections that make our
              > > lives worth living.
              > >
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > "Non" wrote:
              > > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
              > > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
              > > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
              > > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
              > > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
              > > as far as religion may be growing. :)
              > >
              > > Non ;)
              > >
              > > "Non" wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
              > > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
              > > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
              > > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
              > > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
              > > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
              > > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
              > > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
              > > even a twisted moral imperative.
              > > >
              > > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
              > > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
              > > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
              > > like a small intervention.
              > > >
              > > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
              > > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
              > > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
              > > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
              > > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
              > > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
              > > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
              > > >
              > > > Non ;)
              > > >
              > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > > > >
              > > Hi I am,
              > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
              > > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
              > > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
              > > possible and let them go on their way.
              > > Thanks for your comments.
              > > > >
              > > I AM wrote:
              > > > >
              > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
              > > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
              > > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
              > > > >
              > > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
              > > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
              > > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
              > > > >
              > > > > I AM
              > > > >
              > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
              > > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
              > > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
              > > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
              > > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
              > > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
              > > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
              > > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
              > > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
              > > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
              > > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
              > > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
              > > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
              > > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
              > > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
              > > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
              > > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
              > > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
              > > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
              > > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
              > > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
              > > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
              > > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
              > > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
              > > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
              > > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
              > > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
              > > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
              > > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
              > > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
              > > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
              > > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
              > > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
              > > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
              > > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
              > > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
              > > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
              > > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
              > > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
              > > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
              > > tonight.
              > > > > >
              > >
              > > prometheus wrote:
              > > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
              > > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
              > > > > > will ever become like, God,
              > > > > > our imagined or possible
              > > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
              > > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > But, it could be that the
              > > > > > universe(s) just happened
              > > > > > and that the remnants of
              > > > > > other life forms were spread
              > > > > > to this planet, and others,
              > > > > > via space rubble... from
              > > > > > destroyed civilizations
              > > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
              > > > > > intentional seeding by an
              > > > > > advanced race... which was,
              > > > > > itself, seeded by another
              > > > > > advanced race etc.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
              > > > > > experiences we have
              > > > > > are the result of
              > > > > > interaction with the
              > > > > > quantum mechanical
              > > > > > field?
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
              > > > > > that what really matters
              > > > > > are relationships. It's our
              > > > > > relationships with others,
              > > > > > even strangers, that matter
              > > > > > most. This is how we really
              > > > > > learn and grow. Loving
              > > > > > relationships are valuable.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Klemp, and others like
              > > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
              > > > > > have arrested development;
              > > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
              > > > > > and are even psychopathic.
              > > > > > They are incapable of learning,
              > > > > > or caring about others (are
              > > > > > unloving) and attempt to
              > > > > > impede social progress and
              > > > > > justice. They use the rest of
              > > > > > us for their own personal
              > > > > > greed and selfish desires.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Then, again, this strife and
              > > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
              > > > > > created can make life interesting
              > > > > > and a challenge, although,
              > > > > > it can/will also be physically
              > > > > > and emotionally painful.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > But, having a regular life
              > > > > > without additional commitments
              > > > > > and involvements can also
              > > > > > offer rewarding experiences
              > > > > > and insights. We are never
              > > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
              > > > > > not sure how peace of any
              > > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
              > > > > > will ever happen in a world
              > > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > One must care about everyone
              > > > > > and have caring relationships
              > > > > > with people in order for humankind
              > > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
              > > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
              > > > > > I almost included animals, too,
              > > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
              > > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
              > > > > > too.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > How can one really "care" about
              > > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
              > > > > > except to keep them away from
              > > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
              > > > > > people.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > When one thinks about it the
              > > > > > definition of what's "normal"
              > > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
              > > > > > seem to be more pathological
              > > > > > than the introverts don't you
              > > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
              > > > > > to force us introverts to become
              > > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
              > > > > > loves company I suppose or is
              > > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
              > > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
              > > > > > is more intimidating.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
              > > > > > to worship and viewed as being
              > > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
              > > > > > from "us" being involved in our
              > > > > > lives because of the differences
              > > > > > we see in one another. This is
              > > > > > why there are so many different
              > > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
              > > > > > and wrong.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
              > > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
              > > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
              > > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
              > > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
              > > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
              > > > > > use God as our scape goat.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > There are major flaws with all
              > > > > > of these religions and the so-called
              > > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
              > > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
              > > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
              > > > > > validation is that these various
              > > > > > people in history/myth that the
              > > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
              > > > > > to have said or done some nice,
              > > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
              > > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
              > > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
              > > > > > have given them credibility, because
              > > > > > it is believed and taught that
              > > > > > only Divine Intercession could
              > > > > > have been the source for their
              > > > > > Divine Inspiration.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
              > > > > > today, who are not even followers
              > > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
              > > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
              > > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
              > > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
              > > > > > of these major and minor religions.
              > > > > > Many of these people inspired
              > > > > > others by never giving up in time
              > > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
              > > > > > there weren't many other choices.
              > > > > > Even those who did give up and
              > > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
              > > > > > maintained their faith and this
              > > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
              > > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
              > > > > > for religions there are an awful
              > > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
              > > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Prometheus
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
              > > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
              > > > > > with unconditional love for the
              > > > > > master and you get a submissive
              > > > > > control pattern as your reward.
              > > > > > Buyer beware!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
              > > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
              > > > > > an experiment to see if we
              > > > > > are all capable of evolving
              > > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
              > > > > > Are we to become more than
              > > > > > merely a divine thought?
              > > > > > Maybe there is something
              > > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
              > > > > > analogy."
              > >
              >
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