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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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      Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 

      --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM

       
      Hello I Am, Non, and All,
      I'm not so sure that humans
      will ever become like, God,
      our imagined or possible
      creator. And, if at all, certainly
      not in any lifetime soon.

      But, it could be that the
      universe(s) just happened
      and that the remnants of
      other life forms were spread
      to this planet, and others,
      via space rubble... from
      destroyed civilizations
      and planets. Or, was it an
      intentional seeding by an
      advanced race... which was,
      itself, seeded by another
      advanced race etc.

      Maybe the "spiritual"
      experiences we have
      are the result of
      interaction with the
      quantum mechanical
      field?

      Anyway, it seems to me
      that what really matters
      are relationships. It's our
      relationships with others,
      even strangers, that matter
      most. This is how we really
      learn and grow. Loving
      relationships are valuable.

      Klemp, and others like
      him, are: liars; posers;
      have arrested development;
      are sociopathic; narcissistic;
      and are even psychopathic.
      They are incapable of learning,
      or caring about others (are
      unloving) and attempt to
      impede social progress and
      justice. They use the rest of
      us for their own personal
      greed and selfish desires.

      Then, again, this strife and
      uncertainly (stress) that is
      created can make life interesting
      and a challenge, although,
      it can/will also be physically
      and emotionally painful.

      But, having a regular life
      without additional commitments
      and involvements can also
      offer rewarding experiences
      and insights. We are never
      all that alone. However, I'm
      not sure how peace of any
      sort (except in one's own mind)
      will ever happen in a world
      controlled by sociopaths.

      One must care about everyone
      and have caring relationships
      with people in order for humankind
      to advance and survive. To me,
      this is the "spiritual" key to life.
      I almost included animals, too,
      but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
      include "caring" about them (all)
      too.

      How can one really "care" about
      the sociopaths and psychopaths
      except to keep them away from
      nice, loving and kind (normal?)
      people.

      When one thinks about it the
      definition of what's "normal"
      keeps changing. The extroverts
      seem to be more pathological
      than the introverts don't you
      agree? Yet, the extroverts try
      to force us introverts to become
      extroverted. Why is that? Misery
      loves company I suppose or is
      it that an army of glassy-eyed
      introverts acting, as if, extroverted
      is more intimidating.

      In any case the idea of a "God"
      to worship and viewed as being
      "involved" in our lives detracts
      from "us" being involved in our
      lives because of the differences
      we see in one another. This is
      why there are so many different
      religious dogmas of what's right
      and wrong.

      Therefore, the differences in the
      way in which "God" is worshipped,
      for me, shows that "God" does not
      exist. We don't want to be alone
      nor take responsibility for our own
      actions. Thus, we blame God or
      use God as our scape goat.

      There are major flaws with all
      of these religions and the so-called
      "source" of their scriptures. It's
      all hearsay and the only thing
      that, supposedly, gives them
      validation is that these various
      people in history/myth that the
      scribes wrote about are claimed
      to have said or done some nice,
      inspirational, brave, or insightful
      things a very long time ago. Age/
      time (being ancient) seems to
      have given them credibility, because
      it is believed and taught that
      only Divine Intercession could
      have been the source for their
      Divine Inspiration.

      But, IMO, there are many people,
      today, who are not even followers
      of these dogmas that are as, or
      more: honest; brave; insightful;
      inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
      than the prophets, saints, and founders
      of these major and minor religions.
      Many of these people inspired
      others by never giving up in time
      of conflict because, sometimes,
      there weren't many other choices.
      Even those who did give up and
      had bad things befall them, still,
      maintained their faith and this
      fact turned them into "prophets"
      or saints. If this is the standard
      for religions there are an awful
      lot of believers and faithful, today,
      that just as deluded and desperate.

      Prometheus


      iam999freedom" wrote:
      Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
      with unconditional love for the
      master and you get a submissive
      control pattern as your reward.
      Buyer beware!

      Prometheus, you wrote:
      "All of this, it seems, is simply
      an experiment to see if we
      are all capable of evolving
      into our "spiritual" potential.
      Are we to become more than
      merely a divine thought?
      Maybe there is something
      more to that piece of a mirror
      analogy."

      I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
      shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
      I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
      stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
      the end result of the mirror analagy.

      I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
      see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

      I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
      or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
      Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
      has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
      lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
      from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
      meaning than being in a pinball machine.

      Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
      spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
      lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
      and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
      needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
      would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
      It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

      Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
      that it would ever be necessary.

      Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

      I AM

      prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello Non and All,
      > Thanks for the insightful
      > summary. I was exploring
      > the dogma of some fundamentalist
      > charismatic Christian churches
      > and saw a reference to a
      > minor (Jewish) prophet:
      >
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
      >
      > This person is mentioned
      > not by Jesus but by one of
      > his apostles in order to inspire
      > Faith.
      >
      > Even when God seems to
      > turn his back and: causes
      > crops to fail; flocks to be
      > lost; cities attacked and
      > overrun by your enemies;
      > people brutalized, tortured
      > and killed, one is to have
      > Faith in God and a hereafter
      > reward for keeping this
      > faith. God's ego needs
      > you to believe in him
      > regardless of what pain
      > he allows to befall you.
      >
      > One needs to project
      > a sense of hope in order
      > to better endure life, as
      > it is, no matter how bad.
      >
      > And, it's easier to face these
      > challenges when you believe
      > that God is on your side and
      > not that of your oppressor.
      >
      > However, does God really
      > take sides? It seems that God
      > is/was created in man's image.
      >
      > All of this, it seems, is simply
      > an experiment to see if we
      > are all capable of evolving
      > into our "spiritual" potential.
      > Are we to become more than
      > merely a divine thought?
      > Maybe there is something
      > more to that piece of a mirror
      > analogy.
      >
      > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
      > has the belief that you (and your
      > fellow believers or countrymen)
      > deserved the punishments as
      > repayment for sin. Some call it
      > Karma or cause and effect, or
      > what you sow you reap. Plus,
      > most religions see everyday
      > living and hardships as a test
      > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
      > to donate money to support
      > the specific dogma that, basically,
      > says and promises the same
      > or similar things in the imagined
      > hereafter.
      >
      > Plus, each religion has always
      > blamed the non-believers for
      > the sins that they suffer under
      > as well. Eckankar is no different
      > and Klemp is more like these
      > preachers than EKists could ever
      > admit.
      >
      > Well, got to go now....
      > I just had some thoughts
      > to share.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      "Non" wrote:
      So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
      compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
      exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
      beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
      from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
      tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
      he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
      answers to ask the master etc.
      >
      Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
      as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
      not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
      is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
      Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
      leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
      him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
      with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
      by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
      >
      They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
      you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
      advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
      on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
      drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
      it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
      >
      > Non ;)
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello Janice,
      > Yes, one would think that
      > a "Modern Day Prophet"
      > would, at least, attempt
      > to live up to his PR, but
      > that's not the case with
      > Klemp. Why put himself
      > out there by demonstrating
      > his powers? It's not like
      > he announced to the
      > whole world that he was....
      > oh wait, he did!
      >
      > That was a long time ago
      > and he never did make
      > any predictions as most
      > prophets do. Even Twit
      > made some predictions.
      > But, I'm sure that EKists
      > haven't noticed and don't
      > mine and that's why he
      > doesn't feel any pressure
      > to preform his responsibilities
      > as a real prophet.
      >
      > Instead, Harold is very
      > cautious of being too
      > direct and understood.
      > He'd rather have EKists
      > fill-in the blanks and
      > imagine what they want,
      > need and expect until
      > they go too far and have
      > to have a behaviour
      > adjustment by their RESA.
      > That's why Klemp usually
      > gives a very one dimensional
      > perspective when he tells
      > a story.
      >
      > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
      > why put too much
      > effort into it! And, he
      > figures that all he needs
      > to do is the KISS thing
      > of Keeping It Simple (for)
      > Stupid. Of course EKies
      > will substitute Soul for
      > Stupid but Stupid fits!
      >
      > It's really quite amazing
      > how simple Klemp's
      > redundant message is.
      > If EKists would just compare
      > Klemp's simple minded
      > witticisms to other "spiritual"
      > leaders one would have
      > to wonder what they see
      > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
      > but they just laugh at his
      > quirkiness because he's
      > operating on so many
      > high planes of consciousness
      > simultaneously. LOL!
      >
      > Just Google Kristamurti's
      > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
      > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
      > isn't even in the same ball
      > park with the current Dali
      > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
      > (pg. 385) he claims that
      > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
      > religion while Eckankar
      > is a 14th Plane Religion!
      > But, EKists need to compare
      > the two leaders and how
      > they present themselves
      > and what they have to say.
      >
      > Will ECKists make the
      > comparison? No, of course
      > not! They won't even allow
      > the door to be opened a
      > crack because some light
      > might get in and show
      > them the Truth. They can't
      > handle the Truth and
      > would rather remain ignorant.
      > It's much easier, besides,
      > what would they replace
      > Eckankar with? It's too much
      > responsibility to think for
      > oneself and exercise free
      > will. And, it would make
      > life too lonely to lose all
      > of those EK friends.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
      > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
      > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
      > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
      > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
      > charlatan to me.
      >
      >
      > Prometheus wrote:
      >
      > The December 2012
      > Eckankar Mystic World
      > in the Ask the Master
      > section are two interesting
      > questions and answers.
      >
      > The first question has
      > to do with Stress and
      > how to overcome it.
      >
      > HK's answer is wishy-
      > washy at best. He says
      > that stress is "very
      > uncomfortable... Yet
      > stress is a good teacher."
      >
      > Klemp goes on to say
      > that people can increase
      > their tolerance to stress
      > by eating healthy, getting
      > enough sleep, and by
      > "Reducing our overuse
      > of electronic devices."
      >
      > In other words it seems
      > Klemp is saying, in a
      > roundabout way, to use
      > moderation. After all,
      > he's saying to reduce
      > "overuse."
      >
      > Then, again, how does
      > a EK staffer at the ESC
      > not use their computer
      > 8 hours a day?
      >
      > The next question involves
      > reincarnation. This guy's
      > wife gave birth to a baby
      > boy and two days later his
      > mother translated (died).
      > He indirectly asked if this
      > new baby was his mother.
      >
      > Instead of giving this EKist
      > a direct answer, Klemp,
      > the wishy-washy Mahanta
      > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
      > When it comes to rebirth,
      > anything at all can happen...
      > Whichever Soul is now your
      > son, everything is in accord
      > with what is best for all around."
      >
      > Prometheus

    • tuza8
      Hi prometheus973,I agree what you said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name is master ching hai, master ching hai claim
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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        Hi prometheus973,I agree what you
        said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name is master ching hai, master ching hai claim herself is 8 billion plane initiation level,do you believe it?in 1985 she become master and began taught mediatation on light and sound,whom said come from higher world into this lower world ,her also said come to this lower world many times,alway is a master for help people.do you believe?
        --- In EckankarSurvirvorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
        >
        > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
        > I'm not so sure that humans
        > will ever become like, God,
        > our imagined or possible
        > creator. And, if at all, certainly
        > not in any lifetime soon.
        >
        > But, it could be that the
        > universe(s) just happened
        > and that the remnants of
        > other life forms were spread
        > to this planet, and others,
        > via space rubble... from
        > destroyed civilizations
        > and planets. Or, was it an
        > intentional seeding by an
        > advanced race... which was,
        > itself, seeded by another
        > advanced race etc.
        >
        > Maybe the "spiritual"
        > experiences we have
        > are the result of
        > interaction with the
        > quantum mechanical
        > field?
        >
        > Anyway, it seems to me
        > that what really matters
        > are relationships. It's our
        > relationships with others,
        > even strangers, that matter
        > most. This is how we really
        > learn and grow. Loving
        > relationships are valuable.
        >
        > Klemp, and others like
        > him, are: liars; posers;
        > have arrested development;
        > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
        > and are even psychopathic.
        > They are incapable of learning,
        > or caring about others (are
        > unloving) and attempt to
        > impede social progress and
        > justice. They use the rest of
        > us for their own personal
        > greed and selfish desires.
        >
        > Then, again, this strife and
        > uncertainly (stress) that is
        > created can make life interesting
        > and a challenge, although,
        > it can/will also be physically
        > and emotionally painful.
        >
        > But, having a regular life
        > without additional commitments
        > and involvements can also
        > offer rewarding experiences
        > and insights. We are never
        > all that alone. However, I'm
        > not sure how peace of any
        > sort (except in one's own mind)
        > will ever happen in a world
        > controlled by sociopaths.
        >
        > One must care about everyone
        > and have caring relationships
        > with people in order for humankind
        > to advance and survive. To me,
        > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
        > I almost included animals, too,
        > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
        > include "caring" about them (all)
        > too.
        >
        > How can one really "care" about
        > the sociopaths and psychopaths
        > except to keep them away from
        > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
        > people.
        >
        > When one thinks about it the
        > definition of what's "normal"
        > keeps changing. The extroverts
        > seem to be more pathological
        > than the introverts don't you
        > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
        > to force us introverts to become
        > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
        > loves company I suppose or is
        > it that an army of glassy-eyed
        > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
        > is more intimidating.
        >
        > In any case the idea of a "God"
        > to worship and viewed as being
        > "involved" in our lives detracts
        > from "us" being involved in our
        > lives because of the differences
        > we see in one another. This is
        > why there are so many different
        > religious dogmas of what's right
        > and wrong.
        >
        > Therefore, the differences in the
        > way in which "God" is worshipped,
        > for me, shows that "God" does not
        > exist. We don't want to be alone
        > nor take responsibility for our own
        > actions. Thus, we blame God or
        > use God as our scape goat.
        >
        > There are major flaws with all
        > of these religions and the so-called
        > "source" of their scriptures. It's
        > all hearsay and the only thing
        > that, supposedly, gives them
        > validation is that these various
        > people in history/myth that the
        > scribes wrote about are claimed
        > to have said or done some nice,
        > inspirational, brave, or insightful
        > things a very long time ago. Age/
        > time (being ancient) seems to
        > have given them credibility, because
        > it is believed and taught that
        > only Divine Intercession could
        > have been the source for their
        > Divine Inspiration.
        >
        > But, IMO, there are many people,
        > today, who are not even followers
        > of these dogmas that are as, or
        > more: honest; brave; insightful;
        > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
        > than the prophets, saints, and founders
        > of these major and minor religions.
        > Many of these people inspired
        > others by never giving up in time
        > of conflict because, sometimes,
        > there weren't many other choices.
        > Even those who did give up and
        > had bad things befall them, still,
        > maintained their faith and this
        > fact turned them into "prophets"
        > or saints. If this is the standard
        > for religions there are an awful
        > lot of believers and faithful, today,
        > that just as deluded and desperate.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > iam999freedom" wrote:
        > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
        > with unconditional love for the
        > master and you get a submissive
        > control pattern as your reward.
        > Buyer beware!
        >
        > Prometheus, you wrote:
        > "All of this, it seems, is simply
        > an experiment to see if we
        > are all capable of evolving
        > into our "spiritual" potential.
        > Are we to become more than
        > merely a divine thought?
        > Maybe there is something
        > more to that piece of a mirror
        > analogy."
        >
        > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
        > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
        > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
        > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
        > the end result of the mirror analagy.
        >
        > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
        > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
        >
        > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
        > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
        > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
        > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
        > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
        > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
        > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
        >
        > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
        > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
        > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
        > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
        > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
        > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
        > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
        >
        > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
        > that it would ever be necessary.
        >
        > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
        >
        > I AM
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello Non and All,
        > > Thanks for the insightful
        > > summary. I was exploring
        > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
        > > charismatic Christian churches
        > > and saw a reference to a
        > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
        > >
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
        > >
        > > This person is mentioned
        > > not by Jesus but by one of
        > > his apostles in order to inspire
        > > Faith.
        > >
        > > Even when God seems to
        > > turn his back and: causes
        > > crops to fail; flocks to be
        > > lost; cities attacked and
        > > overrun by your enemies;
        > > people brutalized, tortured
        > > and killed, one is to have
        > > Faith in God and a hereafter
        > > reward for keeping this
        > > faith. God's ego needs
        > > you to believe in him
        > > regardless of what pain
        > > he allows to befall you.
        > >
        > > One needs to project
        > > a sense of hope in order
        > > to better endure life, as
        > > it is, no matter how bad.
        > >
        > > And, it's easier to face these
        > > challenges when you believe
        > > that God is on your side and
        > > not that of your oppressor.
        > >
        > > However, does God really
        > > take sides? It seems that God
        > > is/was created in man's image.
        > >
        > > All of this, it seems, is simply
        > > an experiment to see if we
        > > are all capable of evolving
        > > into our "spiritual" potential.
        > > Are we to become more than
        > > merely a divine thought?
        > > Maybe there is something
        > > more to that piece of a mirror
        > > analogy.
        > >
        > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
        > > has the belief that you (and your
        > > fellow believers or countrymen)
        > > deserved the punishments as
        > > repayment for sin. Some call it
        > > Karma or cause and effect, or
        > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
        > > most religions see everyday
        > > living and hardships as a test
        > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
        > > to donate money to support
        > > the specific dogma that, basically,
        > > says and promises the same
        > > or similar things in the imagined
        > > hereafter.
        > >
        > > Plus, each religion has always
        > > blamed the non-believers for
        > > the sins that they suffer under
        > > as well. Eckankar is no different
        > > and Klemp is more like these
        > > preachers than EKists could ever
        > > admit.
        > >
        > > Well, got to go now....
        > > I just had some thoughts
        > > to share.
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        > "Non" wrote:
        > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
        > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
        > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
        > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
        > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
        > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
        > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
        > answers to ask the master etc.
        > >
        > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
        > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
        > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
        > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
        > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
        > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
        > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
        > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
        > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
        > >
        > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
        > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
        > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
        > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
        > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
        > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
        > >
        > > Non ;)
        > >
        > > prometheus wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello Janice,
        > > Yes, one would think that
        > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
        > > would, at least, attempt
        > > to live up to his PR, but
        > > that's not the case with
        > > Klemp. Why put himself
        > > out there by demonstrating
        > > his powers? It's not like
        > > he announced to the
        > > whole world that he was....
        > > oh wait, he did!
        > >
        > > That was a long time ago
        > > and he never did make
        > > any predictions as most
        > > prophets do. Even Twit
        > > made some predictions.
        > > But, I'm sure that EKists
        > > haven't noticed and don't
        > > mine and that's why he
        > > doesn't feel any pressure
        > > to preform his responsibilities
        > > as a real prophet.
        > >
        > > Instead, Harold is very
        > > cautious of being too
        > > direct and understood.
        > > He'd rather have EKists
        > > fill-in the blanks and
        > > imagine what they want,
        > > need and expect until
        > > they go too far and have
        > > to have a behaviour
        > > adjustment by their RESA.
        > > That's why Klemp usually
        > > gives a very one dimensional
        > > perspective when he tells
        > > a story.
        > >
        > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
        > > why put too much
        > > effort into it! And, he
        > > figures that all he needs
        > > to do is the KISS thing
        > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
        > > Stupid. Of course EKies
        > > will substitute Soul for
        > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
        > >
        > > It's really quite amazing
        > > how simple Klemp's
        > > redundant message is.
        > > If EKists would just compare
        > > Klemp's simple minded
        > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
        > > leaders one would have
        > > to wonder what they see
        > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
        > > but they just laugh at his
        > > quirkiness because he's
        > > operating on so many
        > > high planes of consciousness
        > > simultaneously. LOL!
        > >
        > > Just Google Kristamurti's
        > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
        > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
        > > isn't even in the same ball
        > > park with the current Dali
        > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
        > > (pg. 385) he claims that
        > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
        > > religion while Eckankar
        > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
        > > But, EKists need to compare
        > > the two leaders and how
        > > they present themselves
        > > and what they have to say.
        > >
        > > Will ECKists make the
        > > comparison? No, of course
        > > not! They won't even allow
        > > the door to be opened a
        > > crack because some light
        > > might get in and show
        > > them the Truth. They can't
        > > handle the Truth and
        > > would rather remain ignorant.
        > > It's much easier, besides,
        > > what would they replace
        > > Eckankar with? It's too much
        > > responsibility to think for
        > > oneself and exercise free
        > > will. And, it would make
        > > life too lonely to lose all
        > > of those EK friends.
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        > >
        > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
        > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
        > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
        > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
        > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
        > > charlatan to me.
        > >
        > >
        > > Prometheus wrote:
        > >
        > > The December 2012
        > > Eckankar Mystic World
        > > in the Ask the Master
        > > section are two interesting
        > > questions and answers.
        > >
        > > The first question has
        > > to do with Stress and
        > > how to overcome it.
        > >
        > > HK's answer is wishy-
        > > washy at best. He says
        > > that stress is "very
        > > uncomfortable... Yet
        > > stress is a good teacher."
        > >
        > > Klemp goes on to say
        > > that people can increase
        > > their tolerance to stress
        > > by eating healthy, getting
        > > enough sleep, and by
        > > "Reducing our overuse
        > > of electronic devices."
        > >
        > > In other words it seems
        > > Klemp is saying, in a
        > > roundabout way, to use
        > > moderation. After all,
        > > he's saying to reduce
        > > "overuse."
        > >
        > > Then, again, how does
        > > a EK staffer at the ESC
        > > not use their computer
        > > 8 hours a day?
        > >
        > > The next question involves
        > > reincarnation. This guy's
        > > wife gave birth to a baby
        > > boy and two days later his
        > > mother translated (died).
        > > He indirectly asked if this
        > > new baby was his mother.
        > >
        > > Instead of giving this EKist
        > > a direct answer, Klemp,
        > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
        > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
        > > When it comes to rebirth,
        > > anything at all can happen...
        > > Whichever Soul is now your
        > > son, everything is in accord
        > > with what is best for all around."
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        >
      • iam999freedom
        Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning,
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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          Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

          Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

          I AM

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          >
          > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
          > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
          > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
          > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
          >
          > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: prometheus_973
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
          > I'm not so sure that humans
          > will ever become like, God,
          > our imagined or possible
          > creator. And, if at all, certainly
          > not in any lifetime soon.
          >
          > But, it could be that the
          > universe(s) just happened
          > and that the remnants of
          > other life forms were spread
          > to this planet, and others,
          > via space rubble... from
          > destroyed civilizations
          > and planets. Or, was it an
          > intentional seeding by an
          > advanced race... which was,
          > itself, seeded by another
          > advanced race etc.
          >
          > Maybe the "spiritual"
          > experiences we have
          > are the result of
          > interaction with the
          > quantum mechanical
          > field?
          >
          > Anyway, it seems to me
          > that what really matters
          > are relationships. It's our
          > relationships with others,
          > even strangers, that matter
          > most. This is how we really
          > learn and grow. Loving
          > relationships are valuable.
          >
          > Klemp, and others like
          > him, are: liars; posers;
          > have arrested development;
          > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
          > and are even psychopathic.
          > They are incapable of learning,
          > or caring about others (are
          > unloving) and attempt to
          > impede social progress and
          > justice. They use the rest of
          > us for their own personal
          > greed and selfish desires.
          >
          > Then, again, this strife and
          > uncertainly (stress) that is
          > created can make life interesting
          > and a challenge, although,
          > it can/will also be physically
          > and emotionally painful.
          >
          > But, having a regular life
          > without additional commitments
          > and involvements can also
          > offer rewarding experiences
          > and insights. We are never
          > all that alone. However, I'm
          > not sure how peace of any
          > sort (except in one's own mind)
          > will ever happen in a world
          > controlled by sociopaths.
          >
          > One must care about everyone
          > and have caring relationships
          > with people in order for humankind
          > to advance and survive. To me,
          > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
          > I almost included animals, too,
          > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
          > include "caring" about them (all)
          > too.
          >
          > How can one really "care" about
          > the sociopaths and psychopaths
          > except to keep them away from
          > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
          > people.
          >
          > When one thinks about it the
          > definition of what's "normal"
          > keeps changing. The extroverts
          > seem to be more pathological
          > than the introverts don't you
          > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
          > to force us introverts to become
          > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
          > loves company I suppose or is
          > it that an army of glassy-eyed
          > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
          > is more intimidating.
          >
          > In any case the idea of a "God"
          > to worship and viewed as being
          > "involved" in our lives detracts
          > from "us" being involved in our
          > lives because of the differences
          > we see in one another. This is
          > why there are so many different
          > religious dogmas of what's right
          > and wrong.
          >
          > Therefore, the differences in the
          > way in which "God" is worshipped,
          > for me, shows that "God" does not
          > exist. We don't want to be alone
          > nor take responsibility for our own
          > actions. Thus, we blame God or
          > use God as our scape goat.
          >
          > There are major flaws with all
          > of these religions and the so-called
          > "source" of their scriptures. It's
          > all hearsay and the only thing
          > that, supposedly, gives them
          > validation is that these various
          > people in history/myth that the
          > scribes wrote about are claimed
          > to have said or done some nice,
          > inspirational, brave, or insightful
          > things a very long time ago. Age/
          > time (being ancient) seems to
          > have given them credibility, because
          > it is believed and taught that
          > only Divine Intercession could
          > have been the source for their
          > Divine Inspiration.
          >
          > But, IMO, there are many people,
          > today, who are not even followers
          > of these dogmas that are as, or
          > more: honest; brave; insightful;
          > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
          > than the prophets, saints, and founders
          > of these major and minor religions.
          > Many of these people inspired
          > others by never giving up in time
          > of conflict because, sometimes,
          > there weren't many other choices.
          > Even those who did give up and
          > had bad things befall them, still,
          > maintained their faith and this
          > fact turned them into "prophets"
          > or saints. If this is the standard
          > for religions there are an awful
          > lot of believers and faithful, today,
          > that just as deluded and desperate.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > iam999freedom" wrote:
          > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
          > with unconditional love for the
          > master and you get a submissive
          > control pattern as your reward.
          > Buyer beware!
          >
          > Prometheus, you wrote:
          > "All of this, it seems, is simply
          > an experiment to see if we
          > are all capable of evolving
          > into our "spiritual" potential.
          > Are we to become more than
          > merely a divine thought?
          > Maybe there is something
          > more to that piece of a mirror
          > analogy."
          >
          > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
          > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
          > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
          > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
          > the end result of the mirror analagy.
          >
          > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
          > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
          >
          > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
          > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
          > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
          > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
          > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
          > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
          > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
          >
          > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
          > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
          > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
          > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
          > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
          > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
          > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
          >
          > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
          > that it would ever be necessary.
          >
          > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
          >
          > I AM
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Non and All,
          > > Thanks for the insightful
          > > summary. I was exploring
          > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
          > > charismatic Christian churches
          > > and saw a reference to a
          > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
          > >
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
          > >
          > > This person is mentioned
          > > not by Jesus but by one of
          > > his apostles in order to inspire
          > > Faith.
          > >
          > > Even when God seems to
          > > turn his back and: causes
          > > crops to fail; flocks to be
          > > lost; cities attacked and
          > > overrun by your enemies;
          > > people brutalized, tortured
          > > and killed, one is to have
          > > Faith in God and a hereafter
          > > reward for keeping this
          > > faith. God's ego needs
          > > you to believe in him
          > > regardless of what pain
          > > he allows to befall you.
          > >
          > > One needs to project
          > > a sense of hope in order
          > > to better endure life, as
          > > it is, no matter how bad.
          > >
          > > And, it's easier to face these
          > > challenges when you believe
          > > that God is on your side and
          > > not that of your oppressor.
          > >
          > > However, does God really
          > > take sides? It seems that God
          > > is/was created in man's image.
          > >
          > > All of this, it seems, is simply
          > > an experiment to see if we
          > > are all capable of evolving
          > > into our "spiritual" potential.
          > > Are we to become more than
          > > merely a divine thought?
          > > Maybe there is something
          > > more to that piece of a mirror
          > > analogy.
          > >
          > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
          > > has the belief that you (and your
          > > fellow believers or countrymen)
          > > deserved the punishments as
          > > repayment for sin. Some call it
          > > Karma or cause and effect, or
          > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
          > > most religions see everyday
          > > living and hardships as a test
          > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
          > > to donate money to support
          > > the specific dogma that, basically,
          > > says and promises the same
          > > or similar things in the imagined
          > > hereafter.
          > >
          > > Plus, each religion has always
          > > blamed the non-believers for
          > > the sins that they suffer under
          > > as well. Eckankar is no different
          > > and Klemp is more like these
          > > preachers than EKists could ever
          > > admit.
          > >
          > > Well, got to go now....
          > > I just had some thoughts
          > > to share.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > "Non" wrote:
          > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
          > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
          > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
          > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
          > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
          > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
          > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
          > answers to ask the master etc.
          > >
          > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
          > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
          > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
          > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
          > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
          > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
          > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
          > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
          > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
          > >
          > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
          > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
          > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
          > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
          > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
          > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
          > >
          > > Non ;)
          > >
          > > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Janice,
          > > Yes, one would think that
          > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
          > > would, at least, attempt
          > > to live up to his PR, but
          > > that's not the case with
          > > Klemp. Why put himself
          > > out there by demonstrating
          > > his powers? It's not like
          > > he announced to the
          > > whole world that he was....
          > > oh wait, he did!
          > >
          > > That was a long time ago
          > > and he never did make
          > > any predictions as most
          > > prophets do. Even Twit
          > > made some predictions.
          > > But, I'm sure that EKists
          > > haven't noticed and don't
          > > mine and that's why he
          > > doesn't feel any pressure
          > > to preform his responsibilities
          > > as a real prophet.
          > >
          > > Instead, Harold is very
          > > cautious of being too
          > > direct and understood.
          > > He'd rather have EKists
          > > fill-in the blanks and
          > > imagine what they want,
          > > need and expect until
          > > they go too far and have
          > > to have a behaviour
          > > adjustment by their RESA.
          > > That's why Klemp usually
          > > gives a very one dimensional
          > > perspective when he tells
          > > a story.
          > >
          > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
          > > why put too much
          > > effort into it! And, he
          > > figures that all he needs
          > > to do is the KISS thing
          > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
          > > Stupid. Of course EKies
          > > will substitute Soul for
          > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
          > >
          > > It's really quite amazing
          > > how simple Klemp's
          > > redundant message is.
          > > If EKists would just compare
          > > Klemp's simple minded
          > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
          > > leaders one would have
          > > to wonder what they see
          > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
          > > but they just laugh at his
          > > quirkiness because he's
          > > operating on so many
          > > high planes of consciousness
          > > simultaneously. LOL!
          > >
          > > Just Google Kristamurti's
          > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
          > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
          > > isn't even in the same ball
          > > park with the current Dali
          > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
          > > (pg. 385) he claims that
          > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
          > > religion while Eckankar
          > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
          > > But, EKists need to compare
          > > the two leaders and how
          > > they present themselves
          > > and what they have to say.
          > >
          > > Will ECKists make the
          > > comparison? No, of course
          > > not! They won't even allow
          > > the door to be opened a
          > > crack because some light
          > > might get in and show
          > > them the Truth. They can't
          > > handle the Truth and
          > > would rather remain ignorant.
          > > It's much easier, besides,
          > > what would they replace
          > > Eckankar with? It's too much
          > > responsibility to think for
          > > oneself and exercise free
          > > will. And, it would make
          > > life too lonely to lose all
          > > of those EK friends.
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
          > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
          > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
          > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
          > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
          > > charlatan to me.
          > >
          > >
          > > Prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > The December 2012
          > > Eckankar Mystic World
          > > in the Ask the Master
          > > section are two interesting
          > > questions and answers.
          > >
          > > The first question has
          > > to do with Stress and
          > > how to overcome it.
          > >
          > > HK's answer is wishy-
          > > washy at best. He says
          > > that stress is "very
          > > uncomfortable... Yet
          > > stress is a good teacher."
          > >
          > > Klemp goes on to say
          > > that people can increase
          > > their tolerance to stress
          > > by eating healthy, getting
          > > enough sleep, and by
          > > "Reducing our overuse
          > > of electronic devices."
          > >
          > > In other words it seems
          > > Klemp is saying, in a
          > > roundabout way, to use
          > > moderation. After all,
          > > he's saying to reduce
          > > "overuse."
          > >
          > > Then, again, how does
          > > a EK staffer at the ESC
          > > not use their computer
          > > 8 hours a day?
          > >
          > > The next question involves
          > > reincarnation. This guy's
          > > wife gave birth to a baby
          > > boy and two days later his
          > > mother translated (died).
          > > He indirectly asked if this
          > > new baby was his mother.
          > >
          > > Instead of giving this EKist
          > > a direct answer, Klemp,
          > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
          > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
          > > When it comes to rebirth,
          > > anything at all can happen...
          > > Whichever Soul is now your
          > > son, everything is in accord
          > > with what is best for all around."
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Tuza8, Welcome to the site! Thanks for the info on, yet, another religious scammer/fraud. I m assuming that your questions are rhetorical. I found some
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Tuza8,
            Welcome to the site!
            Thanks for the info
            on, yet, another religious
            scammer/fraud.

            I'm assuming that your
            questions are rhetorical.

            I found some info on this
            person and the following
            video:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I

            Here's more info that that
            I uncovered on Wikipedia:

            [Note the info within the (*****)
            It sounds a lot like Klemp's
            Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]

            Quan Yin Method

            In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the 'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with which she is now associated.[10]


            *****
            Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]

            Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best, easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
            *****


            Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the

            "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:

            Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
            Refrain from speaking what is not true.
            Refrain from taking what is not offered.
            Refrain from sexual misconduct.
            Refrain from the use of intoxicants.

            [edit]Quan Yin Method in China

            Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]

            The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July 1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in 20 provinces and cities.[10]

            In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies of "heretical texts."[10]

            [edit]Criticism

            [edit]Environmental violations
            In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400 and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned to establish a park on the site.[33]

            Yes, I read where she is
            very popular in Taiwan
            and that she has 20,000
            followers world wide.

            She's half Vietnamese
            and Chinese and became
            a disciple of Thakar Singh
            and studied Surat Shabd
            Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
            Light and Sound), but
            was, later, initiated by
            a Buddhist monk.

            All those who follow
            her are asked to become
            Vegetarians and initiation
            is free of charge. It doesn't
            appear that there is a
            Membership Donation/Fee
            like with Ecklankar, but
            she does make a lot of
            money by selling books,
            videos, etc. She also owns
            Vegetarian and Vegan
            Restaurants (Loving Hut),
            has jewelry outlets, and
            designs her own clothing
            line.

            Her name, Ching Hai,
            means "pure ocean."

            Google the "Quan Yin
            Method" to find out
            more about her daily
            meditation of the inner
            L & S.

            She's been described as a:
            "tireless publicity seeker;
            The Immaterial Girl... Part
            Buddha, Part Madonna;
            The Buddhist Martha Stewart
            ... merchandizing mystic
            from Taiwan."

            So, it seems that because
            of her Buddhist connections
            that she's associated with
            the more familiar Buddhism,
            however, she teaches the
            less known (outside India)
            Surat Shabd Yoga as does
            ECKankar.

            Funny, though, that her
            religion/enterprise had
            a later start than ECKankar
            but is making more money
            and bringing in more people.

            Prometheus

            "tuza8" wrote:

            Hi prometheu,
            I agree what you said,
            they are some false master
            in public.

            recently one femala master,
            her name is master ching hai,
            master ching hai claim herself
            is 8 billion plane initiation level,

            do you believe it?

            in 1985 she become master
            and began taught mediatation
            on light and sound, whom said
            come from higher world into
            this lower world ,

            her also said come to this
            lower world many times,
            alway is a master for help
            people.

            do you believe?

            prometheus_973" wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
            > > I'm not so sure that humans
            > > will ever become like, God,
            > > our imagined or possible
            > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
            > > not in any lifetime soon.
            > >
            > > But, it could be that the
            > > universe(s) just happened
            > > and that the remnants of
            > > other life forms were spread
            > > to this planet, and others,
            > > via space rubble... from
            > > destroyed civilizations
            > > and planets. Or, was it an
            > > intentional seeding by an
            > > advanced race... which was,
            > > itself, seeded by another
            > > advanced race etc.
            > >
            > > Maybe the "spiritual"
            > > experiences we have
            > > are the result of
            > > interaction with the
            > > quantum mechanical
            > > field?
            > >
            > > Anyway, it seems to me
            > > that what really matters
            > > are relationships. It's our
            > > relationships with others,
            > > even strangers, that matter
            > > most. This is how we really
            > > learn and grow. Loving
            > > relationships are valuable.
            > >
            > > Klemp, and others like
            > > him, are: liars; posers;
            > > have arrested development;
            > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
            > > and are even psychopathic.
            > > They are incapable of learning,
            > > or caring about others (are
            > > unloving) and attempt to
            > > impede social progress and
            > > justice. They use the rest of
            > > us for their own personal
            > > greed and selfish desires.
            > >
            > > Then, again, this strife and
            > > uncertainly (stress) that is
            > > created can make life interesting
            > > and a challenge, although,
            > > it can/will also be physically
            > > and emotionally painful.
            > >
            > > But, having a regular life
            > > without additional commitments
            > > and involvements can also
            > > offer rewarding experiences
            > > and insights. We are never
            > > all that alone. However, I'm
            > > not sure how peace of any
            > > sort (except in one's own mind)
            > > will ever happen in a world
            > > controlled by sociopaths.
            > >
            > > One must care about everyone
            > > and have caring relationships
            > > with people in order for humankind
            > > to advance and survive. To me,
            > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
            > > I almost included animals, too,
            > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
            > > include "caring" about them (all)
            > > too.
            > >
            > > How can one really "care" about
            > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
            > > except to keep them away from
            > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
            > > people.
            > >
            > > When one thinks about it the
            > > definition of what's "normal"
            > > keeps changing. The extroverts
            > > seem to be more pathological
            > > than the introverts don't you
            > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
            > > to force us introverts to become
            > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
            > > loves company I suppose or is
            > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
            > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
            > > is more intimidating.
            > >
            > > In any case the idea of a "God"
            > > to worship and viewed as being
            > > "involved" in our lives detracts
            > > from "us" being involved in our
            > > lives because of the differences
            > > we see in one another. This is
            > > why there are so many different
            > > religious dogmas of what's right
            > > and wrong.
            > >
            > > Therefore, the differences in the
            > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
            > > for me, shows that "God" does not
            > > exist. We don't want to be alone
            > > nor take responsibility for our own
            > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
            > > use God as our scape goat.
            > >
            > > There are major flaws with all
            > > of these religions and the so-called
            > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
            > > all hearsay and the only thing
            > > that, supposedly, gives them
            > > validation is that these various
            > > people in history/myth that the
            > > scribes wrote about are claimed
            > > to have said or done some nice,
            > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
            > > things a very long time ago. Age/
            > > time (being ancient) seems to
            > > have given them credibility, because
            > > it is believed and taught that
            > > only Divine Intercession could
            > > have been the source for their
            > > Divine Inspiration.
            > >
            > > But, IMO, there are many people,
            > > today, who are not even followers
            > > of these dogmas that are as, or
            > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
            > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
            > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
            > > of these major and minor religions.
            > > Many of these people inspired
            > > others by never giving up in time
            > > of conflict because, sometimes,
            > > there weren't many other choices.
            > > Even those who did give up and
            > > had bad things befall them, still,
            > > maintained their faith and this
            > > fact turned them into "prophets"
            > > or saints. If this is the standard
            > > for religions there are an awful
            > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
            > > that just as deluded and desperate.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > >
            > > iam999freedom" wrote:
            > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
            > > with unconditional love for the
            > > master and you get a submissive
            > > control pattern as your reward.
            > > Buyer beware!
            > >
            > > Prometheus, you wrote:
            > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
            > > an experiment to see if we
            > > are all capable of evolving
            > > into our "spiritual" potential.
            > > Are we to become more than
            > > merely a divine thought?
            > > Maybe there is something
            > > more to that piece of a mirror
            > > analogy."
            > >
            > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
            > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
            > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
            > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
            > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
            > >
            > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
            > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
            > >
            > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
            > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
            > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
            > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
            > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
            > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
            > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
            > >
            > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
            > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
            > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
            > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
            > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
            > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
            > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
            > >
            > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
            > > that it would ever be necessary.
            > >
            > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
            > >
            > > I AM
            > >
            > > prometheus wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello Non and All,
            > > > Thanks for the insightful
            > > > summary. I was exploring
            > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
            > > > charismatic Christian churches
            > > > and saw a reference to a
            > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
            > > >
            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
            > > >
            > > > This person is mentioned
            > > > not by Jesus but by one of
            > > > his apostles in order to inspire
            > > > Faith.
            > > >
            > > > Even when God seems to
            > > > turn his back and: causes
            > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
            > > > lost; cities attacked and
            > > > overrun by your enemies;
            > > > people brutalized, tortured
            > > > and killed, one is to have
            > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
            > > > reward for keeping this
            > > > faith. God's ego needs
            > > > you to believe in him
            > > > regardless of what pain
            > > > he allows to befall you.
            > > >
            > > > One needs to project
            > > > a sense of hope in order
            > > > to better endure life, as
            > > > it is, no matter how bad.
            > > >
            > > > And, it's easier to face these
            > > > challenges when you believe
            > > > that God is on your side and
            > > > not that of your oppressor.
            > > >
            > > > However, does God really
            > > > take sides? It seems that God
            > > > is/was created in man's image.
            > > >
            > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
            > > > an experiment to see if we
            > > > are all capable of evolving
            > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
            > > > Are we to become more than
            > > > merely a divine thought?
            > > > Maybe there is something
            > > > more to that piece of a mirror
            > > > analogy.
            > > >
            > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
            > > > has the belief that you (and your
            > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
            > > > deserved the punishments as
            > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
            > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
            > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
            > > > most religions see everyday
            > > > living and hardships as a test
            > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
            > > > to donate money to support
            > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
            > > > says and promises the same
            > > > or similar things in the imagined
            > > > hereafter.
            > > >
            > > > Plus, each religion has always
            > > > blamed the non-believers for
            > > > the sins that they suffer under
            > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
            > > > and Klemp is more like these
            > > > preachers than EKists could ever
            > > > admit.
            > > >
            > > > Well, got to go now....
            > > > I just had some thoughts
            > > > to share.
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            > > >
            > > "Non" wrote:
            > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
            > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
            > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
            > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
            > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
            > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
            > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
            > > answers to ask the master etc.
            > > >
            > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
            > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
            > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
            > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
            > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
            > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
            > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
            > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
            > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
            > > >
            > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
            > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
            > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
            > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
            > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
            > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
            > > >
            > > > Non ;)
            > > >
            > > > prometheus wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello Janice,
            > > > Yes, one would think that
            > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
            > > > would, at least, attempt
            > > > to live up to his PR, but
            > > > that's not the case with
            > > > Klemp. Why put himself
            > > > out there by demonstrating
            > > > his powers? It's not like
            > > > he announced to the
            > > > whole world that he was....
            > > > oh wait, he did!
            > > >
            > > > That was a long time ago
            > > > and he never did make
            > > > any predictions as most
            > > > prophets do. Even Twit
            > > > made some predictions.
            > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
            > > > haven't noticed and don't
            > > > mine and that's why he
            > > > doesn't feel any pressure
            > > > to preform his responsibilities
            > > > as a real prophet.
            > > >
            > > > Instead, Harold is very
            > > > cautious of being too
            > > > direct and understood.
            > > > He'd rather have EKists
            > > > fill-in the blanks and
            > > > imagine what they want,
            > > > need and expect until
            > > > they go too far and have
            > > > to have a behaviour
            > > > adjustment by their RESA.
            > > > That's why Klemp usually
            > > > gives a very one dimensional
            > > > perspective when he tells
            > > > a story.
            > > >
            > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
            > > > why put too much
            > > > effort into it! And, he
            > > > figures that all he needs
            > > > to do is the KISS thing
            > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
            > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
            > > > will substitute Soul for
            > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
            > > >
            > > > It's really quite amazing
            > > > how simple Klemp's
            > > > redundant message is.
            > > > If EKists would just compare
            > > > Klemp's simple minded
            > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
            > > > leaders one would have
            > > > to wonder what they see
            > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
            > > > but they just laugh at his
            > > > quirkiness because he's
            > > > operating on so many
            > > > high planes of consciousness
            > > > simultaneously. LOL!
            > > >
            > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
            > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
            > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
            > > > isn't even in the same ball
            > > > park with the current Dali
            > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
            > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
            > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
            > > > religion while Eckankar
            > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
            > > > But, EKists need to compare
            > > > the two leaders and how
            > > > they present themselves
            > > > and what they have to say.
            > > >
            > > > Will ECKists make the
            > > > comparison? No, of course
            > > > not! They won't even allow
            > > > the door to be opened a
            > > > crack because some light
            > > > might get in and show
            > > > them the Truth. They can't
            > > > handle the Truth and
            > > > would rather remain ignorant.
            > > > It's much easier, besides,
            > > > what would they replace
            > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
            > > > responsibility to think for
            > > > oneself and exercise free
            > > > will. And, it would make
            > > > life too lonely to lose all
            > > > of those EK friends.
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
            > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
            > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
            > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
            > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
            > > > charlatan to me.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus wrote:
            > > >
            > > > The December 2012
            > > > Eckankar Mystic World
            > > > in the Ask the Master
            > > > section are two interesting
            > > > questions and answers.
            > > >
            > > > The first question has
            > > > to do with Stress and
            > > > how to overcome it.
            > > >
            > > > HK's answer is wishy-
            > > > washy at best. He says
            > > > that stress is "very
            > > > uncomfortable... Yet
            > > > stress is a good teacher."
            > > >
            > > > Klemp goes on to say
            > > > that people can increase
            > > > their tolerance to stress
            > > > by eating healthy, getting
            > > > enough sleep, and by
            > > > "Reducing our overuse
            > > > of electronic devices."
            > > >
            > > > In other words it seems
            > > > Klemp is saying, in a
            > > > roundabout way, to use
            > > > moderation. After all,
            > > > he's saying to reduce
            > > > "overuse."
            > > >
            > > > Then, again, how does
            > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
            > > > not use their computer
            > > > 8 hours a day?
            > > >
            > > > The next question involves
            > > > reincarnation. This guy's
            > > > wife gave birth to a baby
            > > > boy and two days later his
            > > > mother translated (died).
            > > > He indirectly asked if this
            > > > new baby was his mother.
            > > >
            > > > Instead of giving this EKist
            > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
            > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
            > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
            > > > When it comes to rebirth,
            > > > anything at all can happen...
            > > > Whichever Soul is now your
            > > > son, everything is in accord
            > > > with what is best for all around."
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            > >
            >
          • iam999freedom
            I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
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              I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle. In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are naturally more happy.

              If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

              I AM.......HAPPY LOL

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
              >
              > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
              >
              > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
              >
              > I AM
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > >
              > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
              > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
              > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
              > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
              > >
              > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: prometheus_973
              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
              > > I'm not so sure that humans
              > > will ever become like, God,
              > > our imagined or possible
              > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
              > > not in any lifetime soon.
              > >
              > > But, it could be that the
              > > universe(s) just happened
              > > and that the remnants of
              > > other life forms were spread
              > > to this planet, and others,
              > > via space rubble... from
              > > destroyed civilizations
              > > and planets. Or, was it an
              > > intentional seeding by an
              > > advanced race... which was,
              > > itself, seeded by another
              > > advanced race etc.
              > >
              > > Maybe the "spiritual"
              > > experiences we have
              > > are the result of
              > > interaction with the
              > > quantum mechanical
              > > field?
              > >
              > > Anyway, it seems to me
              > > that what really matters
              > > are relationships. It's our
              > > relationships with others,
              > > even strangers, that matter
              > > most. This is how we really
              > > learn and grow. Loving
              > > relationships are valuable.
              > >
              > > Klemp, and others like
              > > him, are: liars; posers;
              > > have arrested development;
              > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
              > > and are even psychopathic.
              > > They are incapable of learning,
              > > or caring about others (are
              > > unloving) and attempt to
              > > impede social progress and
              > > justice. They use the rest of
              > > us for their own personal
              > > greed and selfish desires.
              > >
              > > Then, again, this strife and
              > > uncertainly (stress) that is
              > > created can make life interesting
              > > and a challenge, although,
              > > it can/will also be physically
              > > and emotionally painful.
              > >
              > > But, having a regular life
              > > without additional commitments
              > > and involvements can also
              > > offer rewarding experiences
              > > and insights. We are never
              > > all that alone. However, I'm
              > > not sure how peace of any
              > > sort (except in one's own mind)
              > > will ever happen in a world
              > > controlled by sociopaths.
              > >
              > > One must care about everyone
              > > and have caring relationships
              > > with people in order for humankind
              > > to advance and survive. To me,
              > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
              > > I almost included animals, too,
              > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
              > > include "caring" about them (all)
              > > too.
              > >
              > > How can one really "care" about
              > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
              > > except to keep them away from
              > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
              > > people.
              > >
              > > When one thinks about it the
              > > definition of what's "normal"
              > > keeps changing. The extroverts
              > > seem to be more pathological
              > > than the introverts don't you
              > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
              > > to force us introverts to become
              > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
              > > loves company I suppose or is
              > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
              > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
              > > is more intimidating.
              > >
              > > In any case the idea of a "God"
              > > to worship and viewed as being
              > > "involved" in our lives detracts
              > > from "us" being involved in our
              > > lives because of the differences
              > > we see in one another. This is
              > > why there are so many different
              > > religious dogmas of what's right
              > > and wrong.
              > >
              > > Therefore, the differences in the
              > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
              > > for me, shows that "God" does not
              > > exist. We don't want to be alone
              > > nor take responsibility for our own
              > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
              > > use God as our scape goat.
              > >
              > > There are major flaws with all
              > > of these religions and the so-called
              > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
              > > all hearsay and the only thing
              > > that, supposedly, gives them
              > > validation is that these various
              > > people in history/myth that the
              > > scribes wrote about are claimed
              > > to have said or done some nice,
              > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
              > > things a very long time ago. Age/
              > > time (being ancient) seems to
              > > have given them credibility, because
              > > it is believed and taught that
              > > only Divine Intercession could
              > > have been the source for their
              > > Divine Inspiration.
              > >
              > > But, IMO, there are many people,
              > > today, who are not even followers
              > > of these dogmas that are as, or
              > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
              > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
              > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
              > > of these major and minor religions.
              > > Many of these people inspired
              > > others by never giving up in time
              > > of conflict because, sometimes,
              > > there weren't many other choices.
              > > Even those who did give up and
              > > had bad things befall them, still,
              > > maintained their faith and this
              > > fact turned them into "prophets"
              > > or saints. If this is the standard
              > > for religions there are an awful
              > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
              > > that just as deluded and desperate.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              > > iam999freedom" wrote:
              > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
              > > with unconditional love for the
              > > master and you get a submissive
              > > control pattern as your reward.
              > > Buyer beware!
              > >
              > > Prometheus, you wrote:
              > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
              > > an experiment to see if we
              > > are all capable of evolving
              > > into our "spiritual" potential.
              > > Are we to become more than
              > > merely a divine thought?
              > > Maybe there is something
              > > more to that piece of a mirror
              > > analogy."
              > >
              > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
              > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
              > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
              > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
              > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
              > >
              > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
              > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
              > >
              > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
              > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
              > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
              > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
              > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
              > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
              > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
              > >
              > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
              > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
              > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
              > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
              > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
              > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
              > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
              > >
              > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
              > > that it would ever be necessary.
              > >
              > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
              > >
              > > I AM
              > >
              > > prometheus wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello Non and All,
              > > > Thanks for the insightful
              > > > summary. I was exploring
              > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
              > > > charismatic Christian churches
              > > > and saw a reference to a
              > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
              > > >
              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
              > > >
              > > > This person is mentioned
              > > > not by Jesus but by one of
              > > > his apostles in order to inspire
              > > > Faith.
              > > >
              > > > Even when God seems to
              > > > turn his back and: causes
              > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
              > > > lost; cities attacked and
              > > > overrun by your enemies;
              > > > people brutalized, tortured
              > > > and killed, one is to have
              > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
              > > > reward for keeping this
              > > > faith. God's ego needs
              > > > you to believe in him
              > > > regardless of what pain
              > > > he allows to befall you.
              > > >
              > > > One needs to project
              > > > a sense of hope in order
              > > > to better endure life, as
              > > > it is, no matter how bad.
              > > >
              > > > And, it's easier to face these
              > > > challenges when you believe
              > > > that God is on your side and
              > > > not that of your oppressor.
              > > >
              > > > However, does God really
              > > > take sides? It seems that God
              > > > is/was created in man's image.
              > > >
              > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
              > > > an experiment to see if we
              > > > are all capable of evolving
              > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
              > > > Are we to become more than
              > > > merely a divine thought?
              > > > Maybe there is something
              > > > more to that piece of a mirror
              > > > analogy.
              > > >
              > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
              > > > has the belief that you (and your
              > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
              > > > deserved the punishments as
              > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
              > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
              > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
              > > > most religions see everyday
              > > > living and hardships as a test
              > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
              > > > to donate money to support
              > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
              > > > says and promises the same
              > > > or similar things in the imagined
              > > > hereafter.
              > > >
              > > > Plus, each religion has always
              > > > blamed the non-believers for
              > > > the sins that they suffer under
              > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
              > > > and Klemp is more like these
              > > > preachers than EKists could ever
              > > > admit.
              > > >
              > > > Well, got to go now....
              > > > I just had some thoughts
              > > > to share.
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > > "Non" wrote:
              > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
              > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
              > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
              > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
              > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
              > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
              > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
              > > answers to ask the master etc.
              > > >
              > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
              > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
              > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
              > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
              > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
              > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
              > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
              > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
              > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
              > > >
              > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
              > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
              > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
              > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
              > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
              > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
              > > >
              > > > Non ;)
              > > >
              > > > prometheus wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello Janice,
              > > > Yes, one would think that
              > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
              > > > would, at least, attempt
              > > > to live up to his PR, but
              > > > that's not the case with
              > > > Klemp. Why put himself
              > > > out there by demonstrating
              > > > his powers? It's not like
              > > > he announced to the
              > > > whole world that he was....
              > > > oh wait, he did!
              > > >
              > > > That was a long time ago
              > > > and he never did make
              > > > any predictions as most
              > > > prophets do. Even Twit
              > > > made some predictions.
              > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
              > > > haven't noticed and don't
              > > > mine and that's why he
              > > > doesn't feel any pressure
              > > > to preform his responsibilities
              > > > as a real prophet.
              > > >
              > > > Instead, Harold is very
              > > > cautious of being too
              > > > direct and understood.
              > > > He'd rather have EKists
              > > > fill-in the blanks and
              > > > imagine what they want,
              > > > need and expect until
              > > > they go too far and have
              > > > to have a behaviour
              > > > adjustment by their RESA.
              > > > That's why Klemp usually
              > > > gives a very one dimensional
              > > > perspective when he tells
              > > > a story.
              > > >
              > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
              > > > why put too much
              > > > effort into it! And, he
              > > > figures that all he needs
              > > > to do is the KISS thing
              > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
              > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
              > > > will substitute Soul for
              > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
              > > >
              > > > It's really quite amazing
              > > > how simple Klemp's
              > > > redundant message is.
              > > > If EKists would just compare
              > > > Klemp's simple minded
              > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
              > > > leaders one would have
              > > > to wonder what they see
              > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
              > > > but they just laugh at his
              > > > quirkiness because he's
              > > > operating on so many
              > > > high planes of consciousness
              > > > simultaneously. LOL!
              > > >
              > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
              > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
              > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
              > > > isn't even in the same ball
              > > > park with the current Dali
              > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
              > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
              > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
              > > > religion while Eckankar
              > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
              > > > But, EKists need to compare
              > > > the two leaders and how
              > > > they present themselves
              > > > and what they have to say.
              > > >
              > > > Will ECKists make the
              > > > comparison? No, of course
              > > > not! They won't even allow
              > > > the door to be opened a
              > > > crack because some light
              > > > might get in and show
              > > > them the Truth. They can't
              > > > handle the Truth and
              > > > would rather remain ignorant.
              > > > It's much easier, besides,
              > > > what would they replace
              > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
              > > > responsibility to think for
              > > > oneself and exercise free
              > > > will. And, it would make
              > > > life too lonely to lose all
              > > > of those EK friends.
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
              > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
              > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
              > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
              > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
              > > > charlatan to me.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus wrote:
              > > >
              > > > The December 2012
              > > > Eckankar Mystic World
              > > > in the Ask the Master
              > > > section are two interesting
              > > > questions and answers.
              > > >
              > > > The first question has
              > > > to do with Stress and
              > > > how to overcome it.
              > > >
              > > > HK's answer is wishy-
              > > > washy at best. He says
              > > > that stress is "very
              > > > uncomfortable... Yet
              > > > stress is a good teacher."
              > > >
              > > > Klemp goes on to say
              > > > that people can increase
              > > > their tolerance to stress
              > > > by eating healthy, getting
              > > > enough sleep, and by
              > > > "Reducing our overuse
              > > > of electronic devices."
              > > >
              > > > In other words it seems
              > > > Klemp is saying, in a
              > > > roundabout way, to use
              > > > moderation. After all,
              > > > he's saying to reduce
              > > > "overuse."
              > > >
              > > > Then, again, how does
              > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
              > > > not use their computer
              > > > 8 hours a day?
              > > >
              > > > The next question involves
              > > > reincarnation. This guy's
              > > > wife gave birth to a baby
              > > > boy and two days later his
              > > > mother translated (died).
              > > > He indirectly asked if this
              > > > new baby was his mother.
              > > >
              > > > Instead of giving this EKist
              > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
              > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
              > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
              > > > When it comes to rebirth,
              > > > anything at all can happen...
              > > > Whichever Soul is now your
              > > > son, everything is in accord
              > > > with what is best for all around."
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > >
              >
            • tuza8
              Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said she is 8 trillion
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
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                Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said
                she is 8 trillion initiate right now ,I dont believe. ,because from 1986 untill now just 27 years ,how can her achieve such level?is it possible once achieve that level in a short time?27 year?you are a master,so ,you know the answer. is it possible?pls tell me.
                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                >
                > Hello Tuza8,
                > Welcome to the site!
                > Thanks for the info
                > on, yet, another religious
                > scammer/fraud.
                >
                > I'm assuming that your
                > questions are rhetorical.
                >
                > I found some info on this
                > person and the following
                > video:
                >
                > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
                >
                > Here's more info that that
                > I uncovered on Wikipedia:
                >
                > [Note the info within the (*****)
                > It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                > Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
                >
                > Quan Yin Method
                >
                > In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the 'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with which she is now associated.[10]
                >
                >
                > *****
                > Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
                >
                > Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best, easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                > *****
                >
                >
                > Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
                >
                > "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
                >
                > Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                > Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                > Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                > Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                > Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
                >
                > [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
                >
                > Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
                >
                > The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July 1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in 20 provinces and cities.[10]
                >
                > In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies of "heretical texts."[10]
                >
                > [edit]Criticism
                >
                > [edit]Environmental violations
                > In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400 and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned to establish a park on the site.[33]
                >
                > Yes, I read where she is
                > very popular in Taiwan
                > and that she has 20,000
                > followers world wide.
                >
                > She's half Vietnamese
                > and Chinese and became
                > a disciple of Thakar Singh
                > and studied Surat Shabd
                > Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                > Light and Sound), but
                > was, later, initiated by
                > a Buddhist monk.
                >
                > All those who follow
                > her are asked to become
                > Vegetarians and initiation
                > is free of charge. It doesn't
                > appear that there is a
                > Membership Donation/Fee
                > like with Ecklankar, but
                > she does make a lot of
                > money by selling books,
                > videos, etc. She also owns
                > Vegetarian and Vegan
                > Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                > has jewelry outlets, and
                > designs her own clothing
                > line.
                >
                > Her name, Ching Hai,
                > means "pure ocean."
                >
                > Google the "Quan Yin
                > Method" to find out
                > more about her daily
                > meditation of the inner
                > L & S.
                >
                > She's been described as a:
                > "tireless publicity seeker;
                > The Immaterial Girl... Part
                > Buddha, Part Madonna;
                > The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                > ... merchandizing mystic
                > from Taiwan."
                >
                > So, it seems that because
                > of her Buddhist connections
                > that she's associated with
                > the more familiar Buddhism,
                > however, she teaches the
                > less known (outside India)
                > Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                > ECKankar.
                >
                > Funny, though, that her
                > religion/enterprise had
                > a later start than ECKankar
                > but is making more money
                > and bringing in more people.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > "tuza8" wrote:
                >
                > Hi prometheu,
                > I agree what you said,
                > they are some false master
                > in public.
                >
                > recently one femala master,
                > her name is master ching hai,
                > master ching hai claim herself
                > is 8 billion plane initiation level,
                >
                > do you believe it?
                >
                > in 1985 she become master
                > and began taught mediatation
                > on light and sound, whom said
                > come from higher world into
                > this lower world ,
                >
                > her also said come to this
                > lower world many times,
                > alway is a master for help
                > people.
                >
                > do you believe?
                >
                > prometheus_973" wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                > > > will ever become like, God,
                > > > our imagined or possible
                > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                > > >
                > > > But, it could be that the
                > > > universe(s) just happened
                > > > and that the remnants of
                > > > other life forms were spread
                > > > to this planet, and others,
                > > > via space rubble... from
                > > > destroyed civilizations
                > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                > > > intentional seeding by an
                > > > advanced race... which was,
                > > > itself, seeded by another
                > > > advanced race etc.
                > > >
                > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                > > > experiences we have
                > > > are the result of
                > > > interaction with the
                > > > quantum mechanical
                > > > field?
                > > >
                > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                > > > that what really matters
                > > > are relationships. It's our
                > > > relationships with others,
                > > > even strangers, that matter
                > > > most. This is how we really
                > > > learn and grow. Loving
                > > > relationships are valuable.
                > > >
                > > > Klemp, and others like
                > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                > > > have arrested development;
                > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                > > > and are even psychopathic.
                > > > They are incapable of learning,
                > > > or caring about others (are
                > > > unloving) and attempt to
                > > > impede social progress and
                > > > justice. They use the rest of
                > > > us for their own personal
                > > > greed and selfish desires.
                > > >
                > > > Then, again, this strife and
                > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                > > > created can make life interesting
                > > > and a challenge, although,
                > > > it can/will also be physically
                > > > and emotionally painful.
                > > >
                > > > But, having a regular life
                > > > without additional commitments
                > > > and involvements can also
                > > > offer rewarding experiences
                > > > and insights. We are never
                > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                > > > not sure how peace of any
                > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                > > > will ever happen in a world
                > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                > > >
                > > > One must care about everyone
                > > > and have caring relationships
                > > > with people in order for humankind
                > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                > > > I almost included animals, too,
                > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                > > > too.
                > > >
                > > > How can one really "care" about
                > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                > > > except to keep them away from
                > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                > > > people.
                > > >
                > > > When one thinks about it the
                > > > definition of what's "normal"
                > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                > > > seem to be more pathological
                > > > than the introverts don't you
                > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                > > > to force us introverts to become
                > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                > > > loves company I suppose or is
                > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                > > > is more intimidating.
                > > >
                > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                > > > to worship and viewed as being
                > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                > > > from "us" being involved in our
                > > > lives because of the differences
                > > > we see in one another. This is
                > > > why there are so many different
                > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                > > > and wrong.
                > > >
                > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                > > > use God as our scape goat.
                > > >
                > > > There are major flaws with all
                > > > of these religions and the so-called
                > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                > > > validation is that these various
                > > > people in history/myth that the
                > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                > > > to have said or done some nice,
                > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                > > > have given them credibility, because
                > > > it is believed and taught that
                > > > only Divine Intercession could
                > > > have been the source for their
                > > > Divine Inspiration.
                > > >
                > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                > > > today, who are not even followers
                > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                > > > of these major and minor religions.
                > > > Many of these people inspired
                > > > others by never giving up in time
                > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                > > > there weren't many other choices.
                > > > Even those who did give up and
                > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                > > > maintained their faith and this
                > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                > > > for religions there are an awful
                > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                > > >
                > > > Prometheus
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                > > > with unconditional love for the
                > > > master and you get a submissive
                > > > control pattern as your reward.
                > > > Buyer beware!
                > > >
                > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                > > > an experiment to see if we
                > > > are all capable of evolving
                > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                > > > Are we to become more than
                > > > merely a divine thought?
                > > > Maybe there is something
                > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                > > > analogy."
                > > >
                > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                > > >
                > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                > > >
                > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                > > >
                > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                > > >
                > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                > > > that it would ever be necessary.
                > > >
                > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                > > >
                > > > I AM
                > > >
                > > > prometheus wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hello Non and All,
                > > > > Thanks for the insightful
                > > > > summary. I was exploring
                > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                > > > > charismatic Christian churches
                > > > > and saw a reference to a
                > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                > > > >
                > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                > > > >
                > > > > This person is mentioned
                > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                > > > > Faith.
                > > > >
                > > > > Even when God seems to
                > > > > turn his back and: causes
                > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                > > > > lost; cities attacked and
                > > > > overrun by your enemies;
                > > > > people brutalized, tortured
                > > > > and killed, one is to have
                > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                > > > > reward for keeping this
                > > > > faith. God's ego needs
                > > > > you to believe in him
                > > > > regardless of what pain
                > > > > he allows to befall you.
                > > > >
                > > > > One needs to project
                > > > > a sense of hope in order
                > > > > to better endure life, as
                > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                > > > >
                > > > > And, it's easier to face these
                > > > > challenges when you believe
                > > > > that God is on your side and
                > > > > not that of your oppressor.
                > > > >
                > > > > However, does God really
                > > > > take sides? It seems that God
                > > > > is/was created in man's image.
                > > > >
                > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                > > > > an experiment to see if we
                > > > > are all capable of evolving
                > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                > > > > Are we to become more than
                > > > > merely a divine thought?
                > > > > Maybe there is something
                > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                > > > > analogy.
                > > > >
                > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                > > > > has the belief that you (and your
                > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                > > > > deserved the punishments as
                > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                > > > > most religions see everyday
                > > > > living and hardships as a test
                > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                > > > > to donate money to support
                > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                > > > > says and promises the same
                > > > > or similar things in the imagined
                > > > > hereafter.
                > > > >
                > > > > Plus, each religion has always
                > > > > blamed the non-believers for
                > > > > the sins that they suffer under
                > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                > > > > and Klemp is more like these
                > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                > > > > admit.
                > > > >
                > > > > Well, got to go now....
                > > > > I just had some thoughts
                > > > > to share.
                > > > >
                > > > > Prometheus
                > > > >
                > > > "Non" wrote:
                > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                > > > answers to ask the master etc.
                > > > >
                > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                > > > >
                > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                > > > >
                > > > > Non ;)
                > > > >
                > > > > prometheus wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hello Janice,
                > > > > Yes, one would think that
                > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                > > > > would, at least, attempt
                > > > > to live up to his PR, but
                > > > > that's not the case with
                > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                > > > > out there by demonstrating
                > > > > his powers? It's not like
                > > > > he announced to the
                > > > > whole world that he was....
                > > > > oh wait, he did!
                > > > >
                > > > > That was a long time ago
                > > > > and he never did make
                > > > > any predictions as most
                > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                > > > > made some predictions.
                > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                > > > > haven't noticed and don't
                > > > > mine and that's why he
                > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                > > > > to preform his responsibilities
                > > > > as a real prophet.
                > > > >
                > > > > Instead, Harold is very
                > > > > cautious of being too
                > > > > direct and understood.
                > > > > He'd rather have EKists
                > > > > fill-in the blanks and
                > > > > imagine what they want,
                > > > > need and expect until
                > > > > they go too far and have
                > > > > to have a behaviour
                > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                > > > > That's why Klemp usually
                > > > > gives a very one dimensional
                > > > > perspective when he tells
                > > > > a story.
                > > > >
                > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                > > > > why put too much
                > > > > effort into it! And, he
                > > > > figures that all he needs
                > > > > to do is the KISS thing
                > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                > > > > will substitute Soul for
                > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                > > > >
                > > > > It's really quite amazing
                > > > > how simple Klemp's
                > > > > redundant message is.
                > > > > If EKists would just compare
                > > > > Klemp's simple minded
                > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                > > > > leaders one would have
                > > > > to wonder what they see
                > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                > > > > but they just laugh at his
                > > > > quirkiness because he's
                > > > > operating on so many
                > > > > high planes of consciousness
                > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                > > > >
                > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                > > > > isn't even in the same ball
                > > > > park with the current Dali
                > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                > > > > religion while Eckankar
                > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                > > > > But, EKists need to compare
                > > > > the two leaders and how
                > > > > they present themselves
                > > > > and what they have to say.
                > > > >
                > > > > Will ECKists make the
                > > > > comparison? No, of course
                > > > > not! They won't even allow
                > > > > the door to be opened a
                > > > > crack because some light
                > > > > might get in and show
                > > > > them the Truth. They can't
                > > > > handle the Truth and
                > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                > > > > It's much easier, besides,
                > > > > what would they replace
                > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                > > > > responsibility to think for
                > > > > oneself and exercise free
                > > > > will. And, it would make
                > > > > life too lonely to lose all
                > > > > of those EK friends.
                > > > >
                > > > > Prometheus
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                > > > > charlatan to me.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Prometheus wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > The December 2012
                > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                > > > > in the Ask the Master
                > > > > section are two interesting
                > > > > questions and answers.
                > > > >
                > > > > The first question has
                > > > > to do with Stress and
                > > > > how to overcome it.
                > > > >
                > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                > > > > washy at best. He says
                > > > > that stress is "very
                > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                > > > > stress is a good teacher."
                > > > >
                > > > > Klemp goes on to say
                > > > > that people can increase
                > > > > their tolerance to stress
                > > > > by eating healthy, getting
                > > > > enough sleep, and by
                > > > > "Reducing our overuse
                > > > > of electronic devices."
                > > > >
                > > > > In other words it seems
                > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                > > > > roundabout way, to use
                > > > > moderation. After all,
                > > > > he's saying to reduce
                > > > > "overuse."
                > > > >
                > > > > Then, again, how does
                > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                > > > > not use their computer
                > > > > 8 hours a day?
                > > > >
                > > > > The next question involves
                > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                > > > > boy and two days later his
                > > > > mother translated (died).
                > > > > He indirectly asked if this
                > > > > new baby was his mother.
                > > > >
                > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                > > > > anything at all can happen...
                > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                > > > > son, everything is in accord
                > > > > with what is best for all around."
                > > > >
                > > > > Prometheus
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello I AM, Janice and All, I read something where a teacher asked a child what she wanted to be when she grew up and she said Happy! Of course, that was the
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                  Hello I AM, Janice and All,
                  I read something where a
                  teacher asked a child what
                  she wanted to be when she
                  grew up and she said "Happy!"

                  Of course, that was the wrong
                  answer. Happiness is not taught
                  in school. Yet, happiness is
                  the end result of that which
                  is sought by those who are
                  taught how to think and work
                  for a living.

                  Personally, I'd rather the
                  various states of happiness
                  including contentment.

                  And yet the EK teachings
                  are completely Mental
                  Plane via:

                  The Books, like the Shariyats;
                  CDs; DVDs; Internet Videos;
                  Seminar Talks; the RESA
                  Hierarchy; Guidelines; Zoas;
                  Satsang Society and ESC
                  Board business meetings;
                  Workshop and Seminar
                  planning etc., to name
                  just a few of the Mental
                  Plane activities and the
                  basis for Eckankar's
                  existence.

                  Let's not forget those Mystic
                  Worlds, H.I. Letters, IROs,
                  EWS discussions, Membership
                  Donations. These realities
                  are not seen by ECKists
                  because they are too willing
                  to accept the propaganda
                  than think for themselves
                  and question authority.

                  I read a quote by Frank Zappa
                  "The difference between a
                  religion and a cult is how
                  much property they own."
                  It was something like that.
                  Look at the Mormon Church!

                  Thus, IMO, Eckankar will
                  always remain a cult. LOL!

                  Prometheus

                  iam freedom wrote:
                  I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should
                  not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
                  In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy
                  entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are
                  naturally more happy.

                  If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something
                  like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists
                  are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance
                  their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to
                  solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

                  I AM.......HAPPY LOL

                  "iam999freedom" wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                  regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                  meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                  >
                  > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                  sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                  point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                  >
                  > I AM
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see it
                  when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                  there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                  talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                  happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                  something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where people
                  there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were people
                  from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town came
                  together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does appear to
                  make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there is a kind
                  of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about. We
                  hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good. But when
                  people are hurt, there are always others
                  > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                  doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                  still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                  willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                  motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part of
                  what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                  everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                  by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                  strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                  broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                  takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                  the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.Â
                  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                  > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they hide
                  from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to admit
                  that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle
                  like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge
                  to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths have a lot
                  of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to
                  see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your heart can break but
                  can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would rather know my heart will
                  hurt than not to feel anything for others at all. Strong loving hearts will
                  mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the
                  journey. Loving hearts can and will share the pain. Eckankar doesn't do
                  anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does that say about the lem and the
                  other leaders of
                  > > eckankar? I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can
                  even see. Bless all the loving eckist tonight.Â
                  > >
                  prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                  > > I'm not so sure that humans
                  > > will ever become like, God,
                  > > our imagined or possible
                  > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                  > > not in any lifetime soon.
                  > >
                  > > But, it could be that the
                  > > universe(s) just happened
                  > > and that the remnants of
                  > > other life forms were spread
                  > > to this planet, and others,
                  > > via space rubble... from
                  > > destroyed civilizations
                  > > and planets. Or, was it an
                  > > intentional seeding by an
                  > > advanced race... which was,
                  > > itself, seeded by another
                  > > advanced race etc.
                  > >
                  > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                  > > experiences we have
                  > > are the result of
                  > > interaction with the
                  > > quantum mechanical
                  > > field?
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, it seems to me
                  > > that what really matters
                  > > are relationships. It's our
                  > > relationships with others,
                  > > even strangers, that matter
                  > > most. This is how we really
                  > > learn and grow. Loving
                  > > relationships are valuable.
                  > >
                  > > Klemp, and others like
                  > > him, are: liars; posers;
                  > > have arrested development;
                  > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                  > > and are even psychopathic.
                  > > They are incapable of learning,
                  > > or caring about others (are
                  > > unloving) and attempt to
                  > > impede social progress and
                  > > justice. They use the rest of
                  > > us for their own personal
                  > > greed and selfish desires.
                  > >
                  > > Then, again, this strife and
                  > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                  > > created can make life interesting
                  > > and a challenge, although,
                  > > it can/will also be physically
                  > > and emotionally painful.
                  > >
                  > > But, having a regular life
                  > > without additional commitments
                  > > and involvements can also
                  > > offer rewarding experiences
                  > > and insights. We are never
                  > > all that alone. However, I'm
                  > > not sure how peace of any
                  > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                  > > will ever happen in a world
                  > > controlled by sociopaths.
                  > >
                  > > One must care about everyone
                  > > and have caring relationships
                  > > with people in order for humankind
                  > > to advance and survive. To me,
                  > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                  > > I almost included animals, too,
                  > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                  > > include "caring" about them (all)
                  > > too.
                  > >
                  > > How can one really "care" about
                  > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                  > > except to keep them away from
                  > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                  > > people.
                  > >
                  > > When one thinks about it the
                  > > definition of what's "normal"
                  > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                  > > seem to be more pathological
                  > > than the introverts don't you
                  > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                  > > to force us introverts to become
                  > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                  > > loves company I suppose or is
                  > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                  > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                  > > is more intimidating.
                  > >
                  > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                  > > to worship and viewed as being
                  > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                  > > from "us" being involved in our
                  > > lives because of the differences
                  > > we see in one another. This is
                  > > why there are so many different
                  > > religious dogmas of what's right
                  > > and wrong.
                  > >
                  > > Therefore, the differences in the
                  > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                  > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                  > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                  > > nor take responsibility for our own
                  > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                  > > use God as our scape goat.
                  > >
                  > > There are major flaws with all
                  > > of these religions and the so-called
                  > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                  > > all hearsay and the only thing
                  > > that, supposedly, gives them
                  > > validation is that these various
                  > > people in history/myth that the
                  > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                  > > to have said or done some nice,
                  > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                  > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                  > > time (being ancient) seems to
                  > > have given them credibility, because
                  > > it is believed and taught that
                  > > only Divine Intercession could
                  > > have been the source for their
                  > > Divine Inspiration.
                  > >
                  > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                  > > today, who are not even followers
                  > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                  > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                  > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                  > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                  > > of these major and minor religions.
                  > > Many of these people inspired
                  > > others by never giving up in time
                  > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                  > > there weren't many other choices.
                  > > Even those who did give up and
                  > > had bad things befall them, still,
                  > > maintained their faith and this
                  > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                  > > or saints. If this is the standard
                  > > for religions there are an awful
                  > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                  > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                  > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                  > > with unconditional love for the
                  > > master and you get a submissive
                  > > control pattern as your reward.
                  > > Buyer beware!
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                  > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                  > > an experiment to see if we
                  > > are all capable of evolving
                  > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                  > > Are we to become more than
                  > > merely a divine thought?
                  > > Maybe there is something
                  > > more to that piece of a mirror
                  > > analogy."
                  > >
                  > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                  > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                  > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                  > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
                  misinterpreting
                  > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                  > >
                  > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                  > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                  > >
                  > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                  > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
                  event.
                  > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
                  person
                  > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                  > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
                  moving
                  > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
                  more
                  > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                  > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                  > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
                  expressions
                  > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                  > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                  > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                  > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                  > >
                  > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                  > > that it would ever be necessary.
                  > >
                  > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                  > >
                  > > I AM
                  > >
                  > > prometheus wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hello Non and All,
                  > > > Thanks for the insightful
                  > > > summary. I was exploring
                  > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                  > > > charismatic Christian churches
                  > > > and saw a reference to a
                  > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                  > > >
                  > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                  > > >
                  > > > This person is mentioned
                  > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                  > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                  > > > Faith.
                  > > >
                  > > > Even when God seems to
                  > > > turn his back and: causes
                  > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                  > > > lost; cities attacked and
                  > > > overrun by your enemies;
                  > > > people brutalized, tortured
                  > > > and killed, one is to have
                  > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                  > > > reward for keeping this
                  > > > faith. God's ego needs
                  > > > you to believe in him
                  > > > regardless of what pain
                  > > > he allows to befall you.
                  > > >
                  > > > One needs to project
                  > > > a sense of hope in order
                  > > > to better endure life, as
                  > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                  > > >
                  > > > And, it's easier to face these
                  > > > challenges when you believe
                  > > > that God is on your side and
                  > > > not that of your oppressor.
                  > > >
                  > > > However, does God really
                  > > > take sides? It seems that God
                  > > > is/was created in man's image.
                  > > >
                  > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                  > > > an experiment to see if we
                  > > > are all capable of evolving
                  > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                  > > > Are we to become more than
                  > > > merely a divine thought?
                  > > > Maybe there is something
                  > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                  > > > analogy.
                  > > >
                  > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                  > > > has the belief that you (and your
                  > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                  > > > deserved the punishments as
                  > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                  > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                  > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                  > > > most religions see everyday
                  > > > living and hardships as a test
                  > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                  > > > to donate money to support
                  > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                  > > > says and promises the same
                  > > > or similar things in the imagined
                  > > > hereafter.
                  > > >
                  > > > Plus, each religion has always
                  > > > blamed the non-believers for
                  > > > the sins that they suffer under
                  > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                  > > > and Klemp is more like these
                  > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                  > > > admit.
                  > > >
                  > > > Well, got to go now....
                  > > > I just had some thoughts
                  > > > to share.
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus
                  > > >
                  > > "Non" wrote:
                  > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                  > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                  > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
                  anything
                  > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                  > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                  > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                  > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                  > > answers to ask the master etc.
                  > > >
                  > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                  > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                  > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                  > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
                  Dahlia
                  > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                  > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                  > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
                  religion,
                  > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
                  Struggle
                  > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                  > > >
                  > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                  > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                  > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
                  benign
                  > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
                  actually
                  > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
                  out
                  > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                  > > >
                  > > > Non ;)
                  > > >
                  > > > prometheus wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hello Janice,
                  > > > Yes, one would think that
                  > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                  > > > would, at least, attempt
                  > > > to live up to his PR, but
                  > > > that's not the case with
                  > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                  > > > out there by demonstrating
                  > > > his powers? It's not like
                  > > > he announced to the
                  > > > whole world that he was....
                  > > > oh wait, he did!
                  > > >
                  > > > That was a long time ago
                  > > > and he never did make
                  > > > any predictions as most
                  > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                  > > > made some predictions.
                  > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                  > > > haven't noticed and don't
                  > > > mine and that's why he
                  > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                  > > > to preform his responsibilities
                  > > > as a real prophet.
                  > > >
                  > > > Instead, Harold is very
                  > > > cautious of being too
                  > > > direct and understood.
                  > > > He'd rather have EKists
                  > > > fill-in the blanks and
                  > > > imagine what they want,
                  > > > need and expect until
                  > > > they go too far and have
                  > > > to have a behaviour
                  > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                  > > > That's why Klemp usually
                  > > > gives a very one dimensional
                  > > > perspective when he tells
                  > > > a story.
                  > > >
                  > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                  > > > why put too much
                  > > > effort into it! And, he
                  > > > figures that all he needs
                  > > > to do is the KISS thing
                  > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                  > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                  > > > will substitute Soul for
                  > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                  > > >
                  > > > It's really quite amazing
                  > > > how simple Klemp's
                  > > > redundant message is.
                  > > > If EKists would just compare
                  > > > Klemp's simple minded
                  > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                  > > > leaders one would have
                  > > > to wonder what they see
                  > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                  > > > but they just laugh at his
                  > > > quirkiness because he's
                  > > > operating on so many
                  > > > high planes of consciousness
                  > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                  > > >
                  > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                  > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                  > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                  > > > isn't even in the same ball
                  > > > park with the current Dali
                  > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                  > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                  > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                  > > > religion while Eckankar
                  > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                  > > > But, EKists need to compare
                  > > > the two leaders and how
                  > > > they present themselves
                  > > > and what they have to say.
                  > > >
                  > > > Will ECKists make the
                  > > > comparison? No, of course
                  > > > not! They won't even allow
                  > > > the door to be opened a
                  > > > crack because some light
                  > > > might get in and show
                  > > > them the Truth. They can't
                  > > > handle the Truth and
                  > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                  > > > It's much easier, besides,
                  > > > what would they replace
                  > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                  > > > responsibility to think for
                  > > > oneself and exercise free
                  > > > will. And, it would make
                  > > > life too lonely to lose all
                  > > > of those EK friends.
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                  > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
                  that
                  > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
                  say
                  > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he
                  is
                  > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
                  ask
                  > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                  > > > charlatan to me.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > The December 2012
                  > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                  > > > in the Ask the Master
                  > > > section are two interesting
                  > > > questions and answers.
                  > > >
                  > > > The first question has
                  > > > to do with Stress and
                  > > > how to overcome it.
                  > > >
                  > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                  > > > washy at best. He says
                  > > > that stress is "very
                  > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                  > > > stress is a good teacher."
                  > > >
                  > > > Klemp goes on to say
                  > > > that people can increase
                  > > > their tolerance to stress
                  > > > by eating healthy, getting
                  > > > enough sleep, and by
                  > > > "Reducing our overuse
                  > > > of electronic devices."
                  > > >
                  > > > In other words it seems
                  > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                  > > > roundabout way, to use
                  > > > moderation. After all,
                  > > > he's saying to reduce
                  > > > "overuse."
                  > > >
                  > > > Then, again, how does
                  > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                  > > > not use their computer
                  > > > 8 hours a day?
                  > > >
                  > > > The next question involves
                  > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                  > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                  > > > boy and two days later his
                  > > > mother translated (died).
                  > > > He indirectly asked if this
                  > > > new baby was his mother.
                  > > >
                  > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                  > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                  > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                  > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                  > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                  > > > anything at all can happen...
                  > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                  > > > son, everything is in accord
                  > > > with what is best for all around."
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Tusa8, Let me try to address your questions and concerns. tuza8 wrote: Hi, prometheus and all, Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai, I
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Tusa8,
                    Let me try to address
                    your questions and
                    concerns.

                    "tuza8" wrote:
                    "Hi, prometheus and all,

                    Actually, I am former disciple
                    of master ching hai,

                    I dont think she is fake master,"

                    ***
                    ME: Yes, she is a FAKE!
                    You are more of a Master
                    than she is! Why? Because
                    you have more integrity,
                    more honesty, more
                    detachment, and fewer
                    desires than Ching Hai.

                    A true Master cannot be
                    a greedy Capitalist who
                    uses excuses and a slight
                    of hand (magic) to turn
                    appearances into illusion.
                    She is not humble nor is
                    she enlightened, especially,
                    in this Field of Action.
                    ***

                    "but regarding her level,
                    she said she is 8 trillion
                    initiate right now,"

                    ***
                    ME: A True Master does
                    not brag about being a
                    Master nor disclose that
                    they are a Master nor
                    do they disclose their
                    "initiations."
                    ***

                    "I dont believe. ,
                    because from 1986 untill
                    now just 27 years,

                    how can her achieve such
                    level?

                    is it possible once achieve
                    that level in a short time?
                    27 year?"

                    ***
                    ME: These outrageous claims
                    by Ching Hai are simply more
                    proof that she is a fraud. Those
                    who would believe such lies
                    have been tested and have
                    Passed her brainwashing test.

                    Many cult leaders, via increments,
                    will test the waters. They will
                    make a subtle, but illogical,
                    or exaggerated claim or statement
                    and see what happens. If it
                    goes unnoticed/unquestioned
                    or unchallenged and is accepted,
                    then, more and more lies and
                    outrageous claims and orders
                    can be made or handed out
                    until the only people left are
                    those glassy-eyed brainwashed
                    and loyal fanatics who have
                    stopped thinking for themselves.
                    ***

                    "you are a master, so,
                    you know the answer.

                    is it possible?
                    pls tell me."

                    ***
                    ME: I AM No Master.
                    Even if you were to
                    dream of me I would
                    not be a Master. You
                    are your own Master!
                    Dream of yourself as
                    a Master. This, in Truth,
                    is your secret identity.

                    Anyway, I've told you.

                    If you have ears to hear
                    you will hear and, I hope,
                    will understand my words
                    and advice.

                    I'm not perfect... but
                    neither is God. LOL!

                    Prometheus



                    prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Tuza8,
                    > Welcome to the site!
                    > Thanks for the info
                    > on, yet, another religious
                    > scammer/fraud.
                    >
                    > I'm assuming that your
                    > questions are rhetorical.
                    >
                    > I found some info on this
                    > person and the following
                    > video:
                    >
                    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
                    >
                    > Here's more info that that
                    > I uncovered on Wikipedia:
                    >
                    > [Note the info within the (*****)
                    > It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                    > Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
                    >
                    > Quan Yin Method
                    >
                    > In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the
                    'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin
                    Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat
                    tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she
                    severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with
                    which she is now associated.[10]
                    >
                    >
                    > *****
                    > Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know
                    it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was
                    first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way
                    of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to
                    the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha
                    nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that
                    those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
                    >
                    > Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is
                    purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best,
                    easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves
                    meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that
                    she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged
                    repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                    > *****
                    >
                    >
                    > Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for
                    initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of
                    beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products
                    gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
                    >
                    > "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin
                    Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five
                    precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
                    >
                    > Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                    > Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                    > Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                    > Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                    > Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
                    >
                    > [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
                    >
                    > Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is
                    commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread
                    without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset
                    of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a
                    list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it
                    included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
                    >
                    > The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were
                    fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious
                    organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At
                    the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July
                    1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in
                    20 provinces and cities.[10]
                    >
                    > In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment
                    Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover
                    to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise
                    allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and
                    business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices
                    and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to
                    recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies
                    of "heretical texts."[10]
                    >
                    > [edit]Criticism
                    >
                    > [edit]Environmental violations
                    > In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in
                    Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally
                    constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the
                    pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400
                    and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The
                    private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by
                    police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned
                    to establish a park on the site.[33]
                    >
                    > Yes, I read where she is
                    > very popular in Taiwan
                    > and that she has 20,000
                    > followers world wide.
                    >
                    > She's half Vietnamese
                    > and Chinese and became
                    > a disciple of Thakar Singh
                    > and studied Surat Shabd
                    > Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                    > Light and Sound), but
                    > was, later, initiated by
                    > a Buddhist monk.
                    >
                    > All those who follow
                    > her are asked to become
                    > Vegetarians and initiation
                    > is free of charge. It doesn't
                    > appear that there is a
                    > Membership Donation/Fee
                    > like with Ecklankar, but
                    > she does make a lot of
                    > money by selling books,
                    > videos, etc. She also owns
                    > Vegetarian and Vegan
                    > Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                    > has jewelry outlets, and
                    > designs her own clothing
                    > line.
                    >
                    > Her name, Ching Hai,
                    > means "pure ocean."
                    >
                    > Google the "Quan Yin
                    > Method" to find out
                    > more about her daily
                    > meditation of the inner
                    > L & S.
                    >
                    > She's been described as a:
                    > "tireless publicity seeker;
                    > The Immaterial Girl... Part
                    > Buddha, Part Madonna;
                    > The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                    > ... merchandizing mystic
                    > from Taiwan."
                    >
                    > So, it seems that because
                    > of her Buddhist connections
                    > that she's associated with
                    > the more familiar Buddhism,
                    > however, she teaches the
                    > less known (outside India)
                    > Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                    > ECKankar.
                    >
                    > Funny, though, that her
                    > religion/enterprise had
                    > a later start than ECKankar
                    > but is making more money
                    > and bringing in more people.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > "tuza8" wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi prometheu,
                    > I agree what you said,
                    > they are some false master
                    > in public.
                    >
                    > recently one femala master,
                    > her name is master ching hai,
                    > master ching hai claim herself
                    > is 8 billion plane initiation level,
                    >
                    > do you believe it?
                    >
                    > in 1985 she become master
                    > and began taught mediatation
                    > on light and sound, whom said
                    > come from higher world into
                    > this lower world ,
                    >
                    > her also said come to this
                    > lower world many times,
                    > alway is a master for help
                    > people.
                    >
                    > do you believe?
                  • Janice Pfeiffer
                    Hi I am, It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven t learned much
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi I am,
                      It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 

                      --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

                      From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM

                       
                      Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

                      Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

                      I AM

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      >
                      > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                      > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                      > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                      > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                      >
                      > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: prometheus_973
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                      > I'm not so sure that humans
                      > will ever become like, God,
                      > our imagined or possible
                      > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                      > not in any lifetime soon.
                      >
                      > But, it could be that the
                      > universe(s) just happened
                      > and that the remnants of
                      > other life forms were spread
                      > to this planet, and others,
                      > via space rubble... from
                      > destroyed civilizations
                      > and planets. Or, was it an
                      > intentional seeding by an
                      > advanced race... which was,
                      > itself, seeded by another
                      > advanced race etc.
                      >
                      > Maybe the "spiritual"
                      > experiences we have
                      > are the result of
                      > interaction with the
                      > quantum mechanical
                      > field?
                      >
                      > Anyway, it seems to me
                      > that what really matters
                      > are relationships. It's our
                      > relationships with others,
                      > even strangers, that matter
                      > most. This is how we really
                      > learn and grow. Loving
                      > relationships are valuable.
                      >
                      > Klemp, and others like
                      > him, are: liars; posers;
                      > have arrested development;
                      > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                      > and are even psychopathic.
                      > They are incapable of learning,
                      > or caring about others (are
                      > unloving) and attempt to
                      > impede social progress and
                      > justice. They use the rest of
                      > us for their own personal
                      > greed and selfish desires.
                      >
                      > Then, again, this strife and
                      > uncertainly (stress) that is
                      > created can make life interesting
                      > and a challenge, although,
                      > it can/will also be physically
                      > and emotionally painful.
                      >
                      > But, having a regular life
                      > without additional commitments
                      > and involvements can also
                      > offer rewarding experiences
                      > and insights. We are never
                      > all that alone. However, I'm
                      > not sure how peace of any
                      > sort (except in one's own mind)
                      > will ever happen in a world
                      > controlled by sociopaths.
                      >
                      > One must care about everyone
                      > and have caring relationships
                      > with people in order for humankind
                      > to advance and survive. To me,
                      > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                      > I almost included animals, too,
                      > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                      > include "caring" about them (all)
                      > too.
                      >
                      > How can one really "care" about
                      > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                      > except to keep them away from
                      > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                      > people.
                      >
                      > When one thinks about it the
                      > definition of what's "normal"
                      > keeps changing. The extroverts
                      > seem to be more pathological
                      > than the introverts don't you
                      > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                      > to force us introverts to become
                      > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                      > loves company I suppose or is
                      > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                      > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                      > is more intimidating.
                      >
                      > In any case the idea of a "God"
                      > to worship and viewed as being
                      > "involved" in our lives detracts
                      > from "us" being involved in our
                      > lives because of the differences
                      > we see in one another. This is
                      > why there are so many different
                      > religious dogmas of what's right
                      > and wrong.
                      >
                      > Therefore, the differences in the
                      > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                      > for me, shows that "God" does not
                      > exist. We don't want to be alone
                      > nor take responsibility for our own
                      > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                      > use God as our scape goat.
                      >
                      > There are major flaws with all
                      > of these religions and the so-called
                      > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                      > all hearsay and the only thing
                      > that, supposedly, gives them
                      > validation is that these various
                      > people in history/myth that the
                      > scribes wrote about are claimed
                      > to have said or done some nice,
                      > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                      > things a very long time ago. Age/
                      > time (being ancient) seems to
                      > have given them credibility, because
                      > it is believed and taught that
                      > only Divine Intercession could
                      > have been the source for their
                      > Divine Inspiration.
                      >
                      > But, IMO, there are many people,
                      > today, who are not even followers
                      > of these dogmas that are as, or
                      > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                      > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                      > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                      > of these major and minor religions.
                      > Many of these people inspired
                      > others by never giving up in time
                      > of conflict because, sometimes,
                      > there weren't many other choices.
                      > Even those who did give up and
                      > had bad things befall them, still,
                      > maintained their faith and this
                      > fact turned them into "prophets"
                      > or saints. If this is the standard
                      > for religions there are an awful
                      > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                      > that just as deluded and desperate.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > iam999freedom" wrote:
                      > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                      > with unconditional love for the
                      > master and you get a submissive
                      > control pattern as your reward.
                      > Buyer beware!
                      >
                      > Prometheus, you wrote:
                      > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                      > an experiment to see if we
                      > are all capable of evolving
                      > into our "spiritual" potential.
                      > Are we to become more than
                      > merely a divine thought?
                      > Maybe there is something
                      > more to that piece of a mirror
                      > analogy."
                      >
                      > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                      > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                      > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                      > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                      > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                      >
                      > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                      > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                      >
                      > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                      > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                      > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                      > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                      > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                      > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                      > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                      >
                      > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                      > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                      > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                      > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                      > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                      > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                      > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                      >
                      > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                      > that it would ever be necessary.
                      >
                      > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                      >
                      > I AM
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Non and All,
                      > > Thanks for the insightful
                      > > summary. I was exploring
                      > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                      > > charismatic Christian churches
                      > > and saw a reference to a
                      > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                      > >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                      > >
                      > > This person is mentioned
                      > > not by Jesus but by one of
                      > > his apostles in order to inspire
                      > > Faith.
                      > >
                      > > Even when God seems to
                      > > turn his back and: causes
                      > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                      > > lost; cities attacked and
                      > > overrun by your enemies;
                      > > people brutalized, tortured
                      > > and killed, one is to have
                      > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                      > > reward for keeping this
                      > > faith. God's ego needs
                      > > you to believe in him
                      > > regardless of what pain
                      > > he allows to befall you.
                      > >
                      > > One needs to project
                      > > a sense of hope in order
                      > > to better endure life, as
                      > > it is, no matter how bad.
                      > >
                      > > And, it's easier to face these
                      > > challenges when you believe
                      > > that God is on your side and
                      > > not that of your oppressor.
                      > >
                      > > However, does God really
                      > > take sides? It seems that God
                      > > is/was created in man's image.
                      > >
                      > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                      > > an experiment to see if we
                      > > are all capable of evolving
                      > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                      > > Are we to become more than
                      > > merely a divine thought?
                      > > Maybe there is something
                      > > more to that piece of a mirror
                      > > analogy.
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                      > > has the belief that you (and your
                      > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                      > > deserved the punishments as
                      > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                      > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                      > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                      > > most religions see everyday
                      > > living and hardships as a test
                      > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                      > > to donate money to support
                      > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                      > > says and promises the same
                      > > or similar things in the imagined
                      > > hereafter.
                      > >
                      > > Plus, each religion has always
                      > > blamed the non-believers for
                      > > the sins that they suffer under
                      > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                      > > and Klemp is more like these
                      > > preachers than EKists could ever
                      > > admit.
                      > >
                      > > Well, got to go now....
                      > > I just had some thoughts
                      > > to share.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > "Non" wrote:
                      > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                      > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                      > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                      > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                      > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                      > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                      > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                      > answers to ask the master etc.
                      > >
                      > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                      > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                      > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                      > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                      > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                      > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                      > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                      > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                      > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                      > >
                      > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                      > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                      > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                      > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                      > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                      > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                      > >
                      > > Non ;)
                      > >
                      > > prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Janice,
                      > > Yes, one would think that
                      > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                      > > would, at least, attempt
                      > > to live up to his PR, but
                      > > that's not the case with
                      > > Klemp. Why put himself
                      > > out there by demonstrating
                      > > his powers? It's not like
                      > > he announced to the
                      > > whole world that he was....
                      > > oh wait, he did!
                      > >
                      > > That was a long time ago
                      > > and he never did make
                      > > any predictions as most
                      > > prophets do. Even Twit
                      > > made some predictions.
                      > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                      > > haven't noticed and don't
                      > > mine and that's why he
                      > > doesn't feel any pressure
                      > > to preform his responsibilities
                      > > as a real prophet.
                      > >
                      > > Instead, Harold is very
                      > > cautious of being too
                      > > direct and understood.
                      > > He'd rather have EKists
                      > > fill-in the blanks and
                      > > imagine what they want,
                      > > need and expect until
                      > > they go too far and have
                      > > to have a behaviour
                      > > adjustment by their RESA.
                      > > That's why Klemp usually
                      > > gives a very one dimensional
                      > > perspective when he tells
                      > > a story.
                      > >
                      > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                      > > why put too much
                      > > effort into it! And, he
                      > > figures that all he needs
                      > > to do is the KISS thing
                      > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                      > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                      > > will substitute Soul for
                      > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                      > >
                      > > It's really quite amazing
                      > > how simple Klemp's
                      > > redundant message is.
                      > > If EKists would just compare
                      > > Klemp's simple minded
                      > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                      > > leaders one would have
                      > > to wonder what they see
                      > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                      > > but they just laugh at his
                      > > quirkiness because he's
                      > > operating on so many
                      > > high planes of consciousness
                      > > simultaneously. LOL!
                      > >
                      > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                      > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                      > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                      > > isn't even in the same ball
                      > > park with the current Dali
                      > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                      > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                      > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                      > > religion while Eckankar
                      > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                      > > But, EKists need to compare
                      > > the two leaders and how
                      > > they present themselves
                      > > and what they have to say.
                      > >
                      > > Will ECKists make the
                      > > comparison? No, of course
                      > > not! They won't even allow
                      > > the door to be opened a
                      > > crack because some light
                      > > might get in and show
                      > > them the Truth. They can't
                      > > handle the Truth and
                      > > would rather remain ignorant.
                      > > It's much easier, besides,
                      > > what would they replace
                      > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                      > > responsibility to think for
                      > > oneself and exercise free
                      > > will. And, it would make
                      > > life too lonely to lose all
                      > > of those EK friends.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                      > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                      > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                      > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                      > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                      > > charlatan to me.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > The December 2012
                      > > Eckankar Mystic World
                      > > in the Ask the Master
                      > > section are two interesting
                      > > questions and answers.
                      > >
                      > > The first question has
                      > > to do with Stress and
                      > > how to overcome it.
                      > >
                      > > HK's answer is wishy-
                      > > washy at best. He says
                      > > that stress is "very
                      > > uncomfortable... Yet
                      > > stress is a good teacher."
                      > >
                      > > Klemp goes on to say
                      > > that people can increase
                      > > their tolerance to stress
                      > > by eating healthy, getting
                      > > enough sleep, and by
                      > > "Reducing our overuse
                      > > of electronic devices."
                      > >
                      > > In other words it seems
                      > > Klemp is saying, in a
                      > > roundabout way, to use
                      > > moderation. After all,
                      > > he's saying to reduce
                      > > "overuse."
                      > >
                      > > Then, again, how does
                      > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                      > > not use their computer
                      > > 8 hours a day?
                      > >
                      > > The next question involves
                      > > reincarnation. This guy's
                      > > wife gave birth to a baby
                      > > boy and two days later his
                      > > mother translated (died).
                      > > He indirectly asked if this
                      > > new baby was his mother.
                      > >
                      > > Instead of giving this EKist
                      > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                      > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                      > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                      > > When it comes to rebirth,
                      > > anything at all can happen...
                      > > Whichever Soul is now your
                      > > son, everything is in accord
                      > > with what is best for all around."
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      >

                    • Non
                      Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                        Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.

                        Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.

                        Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.

                        Non ;)

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi I am,
                        > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
                        >
                        > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > From: iam999freedom
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                        >
                        > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                        >
                        > I AM
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
                        > there are always others
                        > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
                        > busy hiding their
                        > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
                        > other leaders of
                        > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                        > >
                        > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > From: prometheus_973
                        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                        > > I'm not so sure that humans
                        > > will ever become like, God,
                        > > our imagined or possible
                        > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                        > > not in any lifetime soon.
                        > >
                        > > But, it could be that the
                        > > universe(s) just happened
                        > > and that the remnants of
                        > > other life forms were spread
                        > > to this planet, and others,
                        > > via space rubble... from
                        > > destroyed civilizations
                        > > and planets. Or, was it an
                        > > intentional seeding by an
                        > > advanced race... which was,
                        > > itself, seeded by another
                        > > advanced race etc.
                        > >
                        > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                        > > experiences we have
                        > > are the result of
                        > > interaction with the
                        > > quantum mechanical
                        > > field?
                        > >
                        > > Anyway, it seems to me
                        > > that what really matters
                        > > are relationships. It's our
                        > > relationships with others,
                        > > even strangers, that matter
                        > > most. This is how we really
                        > > learn and grow. Loving
                        > > relationships are valuable.
                        > >
                        > > Klemp, and others like
                        > > him, are: liars; posers;
                        > > have arrested development;
                        > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                        > > and are even psychopathic.
                        > > They are incapable of learning,
                        > > or caring about others (are
                        > > unloving) and attempt to
                        > > impede social progress and
                        > > justice. They use the rest of
                        > > us for their own personal
                        > > greed and selfish desires.
                        > >
                        > > Then, again, this strife and
                        > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                        > > created can make life interesting
                        > > and a challenge, although,
                        > > it can/will also be physically
                        > > and emotionally painful.
                        > >
                        > > But, having a regular life
                        > > without additional commitments
                        > > and involvements can also
                        > > offer rewarding experiences
                        > > and insights. We are never
                        > > all that alone. However, I'm
                        > > not sure how peace of any
                        > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                        > > will ever happen in a world
                        > > controlled by sociopaths.
                        > >
                        > > One must care about everyone
                        > > and have caring relationships
                        > > with people in order for humankind
                        > > to advance and survive. To me,
                        > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                        > > I almost included animals, too,
                        > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                        > > include "caring" about them (all)
                        > > too.
                        > >
                        > > How can one really "care" about
                        > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                        > > except to keep them away from
                        > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                        > > people.
                        > >
                        > > When one thinks about it the
                        > > definition of what's "normal"
                        > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                        > > seem to be more pathological
                        > > than the introverts don't you
                        > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                        > > to force us introverts to become
                        > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                        > > loves company I suppose or is
                        > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                        > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                        > > is more intimidating.
                        > >
                        > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                        > > to worship and viewed as being
                        > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                        > > from "us" being involved in our
                        > > lives because of the differences
                        > > we see in one another. This is
                        > > why there are so many different
                        > > religious dogmas of what's right
                        > > and wrong.
                        > >
                        > > Therefore, the differences in the
                        > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                        > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                        > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                        > > nor take responsibility for our own
                        > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                        > > use God as our scape goat.
                        > >
                        > > There are major flaws with all
                        > > of these religions and the so-called
                        > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                        > > all hearsay and the only thing
                        > > that, supposedly, gives them
                        > > validation is that these various
                        > > people in history/myth that the
                        > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                        > > to have said or done some nice,
                        > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                        > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                        > > time (being ancient) seems to
                        > > have given them credibility, because
                        > > it is believed and taught that
                        > > only Divine Intercession could
                        > > have been the source for their
                        > > Divine Inspiration.
                        > >
                        > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                        > > today, who are not even followers
                        > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                        > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                        > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                        > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                        > > of these major and minor religions.
                        > > Many of these people inspired
                        > > others by never giving up in time
                        > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                        > > there weren't many other choices.
                        > > Even those who did give up and
                        > > had bad things befall them, still,
                        > > maintained their faith and this
                        > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                        > > or saints. If this is the standard
                        > > for religions there are an awful
                        > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                        > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                        > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                        > > with unconditional love for the
                        > > master and you get a submissive
                        > > control pattern as your reward.
                        > > Buyer beware!
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                        > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                        > > an experiment to see if we
                        > > are all capable of evolving
                        > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                        > > Are we to become more than
                        > > merely a divine thought?
                        > > Maybe there is something
                        > > more to that piece of a mirror
                        > > analogy."
                        > >
                        > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                        > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                        > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                        > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                        > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                        > >
                        > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                        > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                        > >
                        > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                        > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                        > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                        > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                        > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                        > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                        > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                        > >
                        > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                        > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                        > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                        > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                        > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                        > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                        > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                        > >
                        > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                        > > that it would ever be necessary.
                        > >
                        > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                        > >
                        > > I AM
                        > >
                        > > prometheus wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello Non and All,
                        > > > Thanks for the insightful
                        > > > summary. I was exploring
                        > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                        > > > charismatic Christian churches
                        > > > and saw a reference to a
                        > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                        > > >
                        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                        > > >
                        > > > This person is mentioned
                        > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                        > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                        > > > Faith.
                        > > >
                        > > > Even when God seems to
                        > > > turn his back and: causes
                        > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                        > > > lost; cities attacked and
                        > > > overrun by your enemies;
                        > > > people brutalized, tortured
                        > > > and killed, one is to have
                        > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                        > > > reward for keeping this
                        > > > faith. God's ego needs
                        > > > you to believe in him
                        > > > regardless of what pain
                        > > > he allows to befall you.
                        > > >
                        > > > One needs to project
                        > > > a sense of hope in order
                        > > > to better endure life, as
                        > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                        > > >
                        > > > And, it's easier to face these
                        > > > challenges when you believe
                        > > > that God is on your side and
                        > > > not that of your oppressor.
                        > > >
                        > > > However, does God really
                        > > > take sides? It seems that God
                        > > > is/was created in man's image.
                        > > >
                        > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                        > > > an experiment to see if we
                        > > > are all capable of evolving
                        > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                        > > > Are we to become more than
                        > > > merely a divine thought?
                        > > > Maybe there is something
                        > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                        > > > analogy.
                        > > >
                        > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                        > > > has the belief that you (and your
                        > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                        > > > deserved the punishments as
                        > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                        > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                        > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                        > > > most religions see everyday
                        > > > living and hardships as a test
                        > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                        > > > to donate money to support
                        > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                        > > > says and promises the same
                        > > > or similar things in the imagined
                        > > > hereafter.
                        > > >
                        > > > Plus, each religion has always
                        > > > blamed the non-believers for
                        > > > the sins that they suffer under
                        > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                        > > > and Klemp is more like these
                        > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                        > > > admit.
                        > > >
                        > > > Well, got to go now....
                        > > > I just had some thoughts
                        > > > to share.
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > > >
                        > > "Non" wrote:
                        > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                        > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                        > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                        > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                        > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                        > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                        > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                        > > answers to ask the master etc.
                        > > >
                        > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                        > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                        > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                        > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                        > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                        > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                        > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                        > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                        > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                        > > >
                        > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                        > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                        > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                        > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                        > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                        > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                        > > >
                        > > > Non ;)
                        > > >
                        > > > prometheus wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello Janice,
                        > > > Yes, one would think that
                        > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                        > > > would, at least, attempt
                        > > > to live up to his PR, but
                        > > > that's not the case with
                        > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                        > > > out there by demonstrating
                        > > > his powers? It's not like
                        > > > he announced to the
                        > > > whole world that he was....
                        > > > oh wait, he did!
                        > > >
                        > > > That was a long time ago
                        > > > and he never did make
                        > > > any predictions as most
                        > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                        > > > made some predictions.
                        > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                        > > > haven't noticed and don't
                        > > > mine and that's why he
                        > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                        > > > to preform his responsibilities
                        > > > as a real prophet.
                        > > >
                        > > > Instead, Harold is very
                        > > > cautious of being too
                        > > > direct and understood.
                        > > > He'd rather have EKists
                        > > > fill-in the blanks and
                        > > > imagine what they want,
                        > > > need and expect until
                        > > > they go too far and have
                        > > > to have a behaviour
                        > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                        > > > That's why Klemp usually
                        > > > gives a very one dimensional
                        > > > perspective when he tells
                        > > > a story.
                        > > >
                        > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                        > > > why put too much
                        > > > effort into it! And, he
                        > > > figures that all he needs
                        > > > to do is the KISS thing
                        > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                        > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                        > > > will substitute Soul for
                        > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                        > > >
                        > > > It's really quite amazing
                        > > > how simple Klemp's
                        > > > redundant message is.
                        > > > If EKists would just compare
                        > > > Klemp's simple minded
                        > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                        > > > leaders one would have
                        > > > to wonder what they see
                        > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                        > > > but they just laugh at his
                        > > > quirkiness because he's
                        > > > operating on so many
                        > > > high planes of consciousness
                        > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                        > > >
                        > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                        > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                        > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                        > > > isn't even in the same ball
                        > > > park with the current Dali
                        > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                        > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                        > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                        > > > religion while Eckankar
                        > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                        > > > But, EKists need to compare
                        > > > the two leaders and how
                        > > > they present themselves
                        > > > and what they have to say.
                        > > >
                        > > > Will ECKists make the
                        > > > comparison? No, of course
                        > > > not! They won't even allow
                        > > > the door to be opened a
                        > > > crack because some light
                        > > > might get in and show
                        > > > them the Truth. They can't
                        > > > handle the Truth and
                        > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                        > > > It's much easier, besides,
                        > > > what would they replace
                        > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                        > > > responsibility to think for
                        > > > oneself and exercise free
                        > > > will. And, it would make
                        > > > life too lonely to lose all
                        > > > of those EK friends.
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                        > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                        > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                        > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                        > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                        > > > charlatan to me.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > The December 2012
                        > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                        > > > in the Ask the Master
                        > > > section are two interesting
                        > > > questions and answers.
                        > > >
                        > > > The first question has
                        > > > to do with Stress and
                        > > > how to overcome it.
                        > > >
                        > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                        > > > washy at best. He says
                        > > > that stress is "very
                        > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                        > > > stress is a good teacher."
                        > > >
                        > > > Klemp goes on to say
                        > > > that people can increase
                        > > > their tolerance to stress
                        > > > by eating healthy, getting
                        > > > enough sleep, and by
                        > > > "Reducing our overuse
                        > > > of electronic devices."
                        > > >
                        > > > In other words it seems
                        > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                        > > > roundabout way, to use
                        > > > moderation. After all,
                        > > > he's saying to reduce
                        > > > "overuse."
                        > > >
                        > > > Then, again, how does
                        > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                        > > > not use their computer
                        > > > 8 hours a day?
                        > > >
                        > > > The next question involves
                        > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                        > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                        > > > boy and two days later his
                        > > > mother translated (died).
                        > > > He indirectly asked if this
                        > > > new baby was his mother.
                        > > >
                        > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                        > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                        > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                        > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                        > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                        > > > anything at all can happen...
                        > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                        > > > son, everything is in accord
                        > > > with what is best for all around."
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        >
                      • etznab18
                        However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It states that the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                          "However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It states that "the spiritual workers created man and placed
                          within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul."

                          ***

                          Then the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul; and man became like the living gods of the spirit worlds with intellectual powers, physical strength, and Soul. ... ." - S.K.S., Book One, p. 44

                          Compare with:

                          "The Seventh Command: And when this was done, the Seventh Intellect said: 'Let us make man after our own fashion and let us endow him with powers to rule this earth.' Then the Seven-Headed Intellect, The Creator of All Things throughout the Universe, created man and placed within his body a living, imperishable spirit, and man became like the Creator in intellectual power."

                          http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ssm/ssm07.htm

                          and (this is the older version)

                          "Then Narayana, the Seven-headed Intellect, the Creator of all things throughout the universe, created man, and placed within his body a living, imperishable spirit, and man became like Narayana in intellectual power. Then was creation complete."

                          http://campbellmgold.com/archive_esoteric/lost_continent_mu_churchward_1931.pdf

                          Judging by the number of other similarities between writings of Twitchell and Churchward (concerning creation and Lemuria, etc.) I wonder if that quote by Twitchell was not entirely original. In fact, I believe Churchward's first book (Lost Continent of Mu) was part of the recommended reading list mentioned in LTG.

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello I Am,
                          > Okay, let me give it
                          > a shot and use some
                          > excerpts etc.
                          >
                          > HK's talking about
                          > psychological studies
                          > using identical twins
                          > (not conjoined) that
                          > were separated soon
                          > after birth. They grew
                          > up elsewhere and had
                          > different influences
                          > but dressed the same
                          > and had the same type
                          > of dog and gave the
                          > dog the same name etc.,
                          > etc.
                          >
                          > Thus, it seems that
                          > Free Will relies upon
                          > genetics (nature) more
                          > than it does upon nurture,
                          > although, HK says that
                          > Yogi Berra stated that
                          > "in theory, practice doesn't
                          > matter; in practice, it does."
                          >
                          > BTW- According to Klemp
                          > "The Lords of Karma have
                          > selected a body with the
                          > appropriate genes for each
                          > student."
                          >
                          > However, HK has somewhat
                          > contradicted what is in CH.
                          > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                          > that "the spiritual workers
                          > created man and placed
                          > within him a living imperishable
                          > Spirit, called Soul."
                          >
                          > There is no other mention
                          > of these "spiritual workers."
                          >
                          > Anywho-
                          >
                          > HK is so clever the way
                          > he'll twist a quote to add
                          > even more confusion to
                          > his message of absolute
                          > servitude and obedience.
                          >
                          > I counted HK using "But"
                          > four times. In an old H.I.
                          > Letter he said never to
                          > use "But" with one another
                          > and that it was a nail in
                          > the coffin of invention and
                          > took away from what was
                          > previously said.
                          >
                          > HK:
                          > "BUT they dug in their heels
                          > at the finding that such twins'
                          > IQs were nearly as similar as
                          > their heights."
                          >
                          > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                          > set. A kind owner may let it out
                          > into the room on occasion. BUT
                          > it is still in a house."
                          >
                          > "Researchers, too, can advance
                          > only to a fixed point in their studies
                          > of what elements make up a whole
                          > individual. BUT they do not have
                          > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                          > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                          >
                          > Funny that Klemp states that he
                          > holds "a magical key" to control
                          > others like a Black Magician would.
                          >
                          > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                          > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                          > must have the right kind and amount
                          > of daily experiences."
                          >
                          > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                          > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                          > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                          > the "right kind and amount of daily
                          > experiences."
                          >
                          > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                          > doesn't like science and psychologists
                          > since getting locked up in an asylum
                          > and having to "play-the-game" to
                          > be released early.
                          >
                          > HK states that "Real free will rests
                          > entirely on trusting the Master's
                          > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                          > many choices to make in all things
                          > human and divine."
                          >
                          > In other words do as I say not
                          > as I do and there is no such
                          > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                          > Does that kind sound like Cult
                          > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                          > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                          > that "He gives suggestions" and
                          > "seldom does he issue directives...
                          > True Free Will of an individual
                          > stands upon the Mahanta's
                          > guidance."
                          >
                          > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                          > as he speaks from experience:
                          > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                          > ingrained ideas about patterns
                          > against them. A subject thinks
                          > he has the quick mind and eyes
                          > to catch a Magician in an act,
                          > even while he is being unburdened
                          > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                          > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                          > played upon people by illusion."
                          >
                          > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                          > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                          > exercises," but write those snail-
                          > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                          > thinking and so I can use those
                          > stories for my next book.
                          >
                          >
                          > iam999freedom wrote:
                          > Hi Prometheus,
                          >
                          > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                          > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                          > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                          >
                          > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                          > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                          > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                          > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                          > different character than the other."
                          >
                          > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                          > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next morning
                          > on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                          >
                          > I still have yet to receive a response.
                          >
                          > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic Note
                          > that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          > I AM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > prometheus_wrote:
                          > >
                          > > The December 2012
                          > > Eckankar Mystic World
                          > > in the Ask the Master
                          > > section are two interesting
                          > > questions and answers.
                          > >
                          > > The first question has
                          > > to do with Stress and
                          > > how to overcome it.
                          > >
                          > > HK's answer is wishy-
                          > > washy at best. He says
                          > > that stress is "very
                          > > uncomfortable... Yet
                          > > stress is a good teacher."
                          > >
                          > > Klemp goes on to say
                          > > that people increase
                          > > their tolerance to stress
                          > > by eating healthy, getting
                          > > enough sleep, and by
                          > > "Reducing our overuse
                          > > of electronic devices."
                          > >
                          > > In other words it seems
                          > > Klemp is saying, in a
                          > > roundabout way, to use
                          > > moderation. After all,
                          > > he's saying to reduce
                          > > "overuse."
                          > >
                          > > Then, again, how does
                          > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                          > > not use their computer
                          > > 8 hours a day?
                          > >
                          > > The next question involves
                          > > reincarnation. This guy's
                          > > wife gave birth to a baby
                          > > boy and two days later his
                          > > mother translated (died).
                          > > He indirectly asked if this
                          > > new baby was his mother.
                          > >
                          > > Instead of giving this EKist
                          > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                          > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                          > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                          > > When it comes to rebirth,
                          > > anything at all can happen...
                          > > Whichever Soul is now your
                          > > son, everything is in accord
                          > > with what is best for all around."
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          >
                        • etznab18
                          Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                            Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a number of things. Another study suggested that "even one's political leanings are largely shaped by genes (not by 'free will,' or choice.)"

                            OK? Got the picture now? Combine that with the first paragraph of Harold's article and with the other paragraphs that mentioned free will, illusion and influence of genes.

                            My impression from the article was that genes were considered to have great influence upon people's behaviors, even moreso than upbringing, or life's experiences.

                            Now, I've seen studies where twins grow up in different environments where one gets cancer and the other doesn't. Also, I think there is a lot of "dark space" about the physiology of genes (just like there is a lot of "dark space" in the universe ... the majority, some think.) Genes, IMO, don't matter so much as whether the genes are "turned on" or not. There are lots and lots of genes (or DNA) that remain inactive I think, what they call junk DNA, and my guess is that life experiences and upbringing DO have an effect on shaping individual character. Even with identical twins.

                            The idea that genes have such a great influence on behavior is just relative to any number of other things, IMO.

                            I had to wonder, was Harold speaking about Eugenics? or something similar?

                            Consider the following:

                            Doubts on genetic mutation triggered by inheritance

                            "The first major challenge to conventional eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was made in 1915 by Thomas Hunt Morgan, who demonstrated the event of genetic mutation occurring outside of inheritance involving the discovery of the hatching of a fruit fly with white eyes from a family and ancestry of the red-eyed Drosophila melanogaster species of fruit fly.[36] Morgan claimed that this demonstrated that major genetic changes occurred outside of inheritance and that the concept of eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was, to some extent, not completely scientifically accurate.[36]

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Doubts_on_genetic_mutation_triggered_by_inheritance

                            "A gene is a molecular unit of heredity of a living organism. It is a name given to some stretches of DNA and RNA that code for a polypeptide or for an RNA chain that has a function in the organism. [... .]"

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes#Changing_concept

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello I AM and All,
                            > Actually Klemp did cite some
                            > studies and I Googled it myself
                            > and saw that there is proof that
                            > identical twins share similarities.
                            > The mirrored behaviors could
                            > be genetical with brain frequencies
                            > and brain function being the
                            > same due to a quantum mechanical
                            > influence. I threw that last one
                            > in on my own, but who knows?
                            >
                            > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
                            > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
                            > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
                            > use the Lords of Karma ruse
                            > which, BTW, is not solely owned
                            > by Eckankar.
                            >
                            > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
                            > to get new members by promising
                            > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
                            > Liberation" but then he switches
                            > it up and demands (suggests)
                            > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
                            > Team participation in order to,
                            > possibly, get promoted and receive
                            > "Spiritual Rewards."
                            >
                            > It is funny that Klemp claims to
                            > take "Free Will" away from Souls
                            > who join Eckankar and follow him.
                            > Does this mean that those Souls
                            > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
                            > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > iam999freedom wrote:
                            > Hi Prometheus,
                            > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
                            > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
                            > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
                            > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
                            > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
                            > the environment.
                            >
                            > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
                            > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
                            > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
                            >
                            > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
                            > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
                            > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
                            >
                            > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
                            > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
                            > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
                            > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
                            >
                            > I AM
                            >
                            > prometheus_973" wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello I Am,
                            > > Okay, let me give it
                            > > a shot and use some
                            > > excerpts etc.
                            > >
                            > > HK's talking about
                            > > psychological studies
                            > > using identical twins
                            > > (not conjoined) that
                            > > were separated soon
                            > > after birth. They grew
                            > > up elsewhere and had
                            > > different influences
                            > > but dressed the same
                            > > and had the same type
                            > > of dog and gave the
                            > > dog the same name etc.,
                            > > etc.
                            > >
                            > > Thus, it seems that
                            > > Free Will relies upon
                            > > genetics (nature) more
                            > > than it does upon nurture,
                            > > although, HK says that
                            > > Yogi Berra stated that
                            > > "in theory, practice doesn't
                            > > matter; in practice, it does."
                            > >
                            > > BTW- According to Klemp
                            > > "The Lords of Karma have
                            > > selected a body with the
                            > > appropriate genes for each
                            > > student."
                            > >
                            > > However, HK has somewhat
                            > > contradicted what is in CH.
                            > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                            > > that "the spiritual workers
                            > > created man and placed
                            > > within him a living imperishable
                            > > Spirit, called Soul."
                            > >
                            > > There is no other mention
                            > > of these "spiritual workers."
                            > >
                            > > Anywho-
                            > >
                            > > HK is so clever the way
                            > > he'll twist a quote to add
                            > > even more confusion to
                            > > his message of absolute
                            > > servitude and obedience.
                            > >
                            > > I counted HK using "But"
                            > > four times. In an old H.I.
                            > > Letter he said never to
                            > > use "But" with one another
                            > > and that it was a nail in
                            > > the coffin of invention and
                            > > took away from what was
                            > > previously said.
                            > >
                            > > HK:
                            > > "BUT they dug in their heels
                            > > at the finding that such twins'
                            > > IQs were nearly as similar as
                            > > their heights."
                            > >
                            > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                            > > set. A kind owner may let it out
                            > > into the room on occasion. BUT
                            > > it is still in a house."
                            > >
                            > > "Researchers, too, can advance
                            > > only to a fixed point in their studies
                            > > of what elements make up a whole
                            > > individual. BUT they do not have
                            > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                            > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                            > >
                            > > Funny that Klemp states that he
                            > > holds "a magical key" to control
                            > > others like a Black Magician would.
                            > >
                            > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                            > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                            > > must have the right kind and amount
                            > > of daily experiences."
                            > >
                            > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                            > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                            > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                            > > the "right kind and amount of daily
                            > > experiences."
                            > >
                            > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                            > > doesn't like science and psychologists
                            > > since getting locked up in an asylum
                            > > and having to "play-the-game" to
                            > > be released early.
                            > >
                            > > HK states that "Real free will rests
                            > > entirely on trusting the Master's
                            > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                            > > many choices to make in all things
                            > > human and divine."
                            > >
                            > > In other words do as I say not
                            > > as I do and there is no such
                            > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                            > > Does that kind sound like Cult
                            > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                            > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                            > > that "He gives suggestions" and
                            > > "seldom does he issue directives...
                            > > True Free Will of an individual
                            > > stands upon the Mahanta's
                            > > guidance."
                            > >
                            > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                            > > as he speaks from experience:
                            > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                            > > ingrained ideas about patterns
                            > > against them. A subject thinks
                            > > he has the quick mind and eyes
                            > > to catch a Magician in an act,
                            > > even while he is being unburdened
                            > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                            > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                            > > played upon people by illusion."
                            > >
                            > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                            > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                            > > exercises," but write those snail-
                            > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                            > > thinking and so I can use those
                            > > stories for my next book.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > iam999freedom wrote:
                            > > Hi Prometheus,
                            > >
                            > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                            > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                            > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                            > >
                            > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                            > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                            > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                            > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                            > > different character than the other."
                            > >
                            > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                            > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
                            > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                            > >
                            > > I still have yet to receive a response.
                            > >
                            > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
                            > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                            > >
                            > > Thanks,
                            > > I AM
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > prometheus_wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > The December 2012
                            > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                            > > > in the Ask the Master
                            > > > section are two interesting
                            > > > questions and answers.
                            > > >
                            > > > The first question has
                            > > > to do with Stress and
                            > > > how to overcome it.
                            > > >
                            > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                            > > > washy at best. He says
                            > > > that stress is "very
                            > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                            > > > stress is a good teacher."
                            > > >
                            > > > Klemp goes on to say
                            > > > that people increase
                            > > > their tolerance to stress
                            > > > by eating healthy, getting
                            > > > enough sleep, and by
                            > > > "Reducing our overuse
                            > > > of electronic devices."
                            > > >
                            > > > In other words it seems
                            > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                            > > > roundabout way, to use
                            > > > moderation. After all,
                            > > > he's saying to reduce
                            > > > "overuse."
                            > > >
                            > > > Then, again, how does
                            > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                            > > > not use their computer
                            > > > 8 hours a day?
                            > > >
                            > > > The next question involves
                            > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                            > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                            > > > boy and two days later his
                            > > > mother translated (died).
                            > > > He indirectly asked if this
                            > > > new baby was his mother.
                            > > >
                            > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                            > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                            > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                            > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                            > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                            > > > anything at all can happen...
                            > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                            > > > son, everything is in accord
                            > > > with what is best for all around."
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            >
                          • Non
                            Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 12, 2013
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                              Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated as far as religion may be growing. :)

                              Non ;)

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
                              >
                              > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.
                              >
                              > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.
                              >
                              > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                              >
                              > Non ;)
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi I am,
                              > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
                              > >
                              > > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > From: iam999freedom
                              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >  
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                              > >
                              > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                              > >
                              > > I AM
                              > >
                              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
                              > > there are always others
                              > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
                              > > busy hiding their
                              > > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
                              > > other leaders of
                              > > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                              > > >
                              > > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > From: prometheus_973
                              > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                              > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >  
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                              > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                              > > > will ever become like, God,
                              > > > our imagined or possible
                              > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                              > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                              > > >
                              > > > But, it could be that the
                              > > > universe(s) just happened
                              > > > and that the remnants of
                              > > > other life forms were spread
                              > > > to this planet, and others,
                              > > > via space rubble... from
                              > > > destroyed civilizations
                              > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                              > > > intentional seeding by an
                              > > > advanced race... which was,
                              > > > itself, seeded by another
                              > > > advanced race etc.
                              > > >
                              > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                              > > > experiences we have
                              > > > are the result of
                              > > > interaction with the
                              > > > quantum mechanical
                              > > > field?
                              > > >
                              > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                              > > > that what really matters
                              > > > are relationships. It's our
                              > > > relationships with others,
                              > > > even strangers, that matter
                              > > > most. This is how we really
                              > > > learn and grow. Loving
                              > > > relationships are valuable.
                              > > >
                              > > > Klemp, and others like
                              > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                              > > > have arrested development;
                              > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                              > > > and are even psychopathic.
                              > > > They are incapable of learning,
                              > > > or caring about others (are
                              > > > unloving) and attempt to
                              > > > impede social progress and
                              > > > justice. They use the rest of
                              > > > us for their own personal
                              > > > greed and selfish desires.
                              > > >
                              > > > Then, again, this strife and
                              > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                              > > > created can make life interesting
                              > > > and a challenge, although,
                              > > > it can/will also be physically
                              > > > and emotionally painful.
                              > > >
                              > > > But, having a regular life
                              > > > without additional commitments
                              > > > and involvements can also
                              > > > offer rewarding experiences
                              > > > and insights. We are never
                              > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                              > > > not sure how peace of any
                              > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                              > > > will ever happen in a world
                              > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                              > > >
                              > > > One must care about everyone
                              > > > and have caring relationships
                              > > > with people in order for humankind
                              > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                              > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                              > > > I almost included animals, too,
                              > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                              > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                              > > > too.
                              > > >
                              > > > How can one really "care" about
                              > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                              > > > except to keep them away from
                              > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                              > > > people.
                              > > >
                              > > > When one thinks about it the
                              > > > definition of what's "normal"
                              > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                              > > > seem to be more pathological
                              > > > than the introverts don't you
                              > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                              > > > to force us introverts to become
                              > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                              > > > loves company I suppose or is
                              > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                              > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                              > > > is more intimidating.
                              > > >
                              > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                              > > > to worship and viewed as being
                              > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                              > > > from "us" being involved in our
                              > > > lives because of the differences
                              > > > we see in one another. This is
                              > > > why there are so many different
                              > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                              > > > and wrong.
                              > > >
                              > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                              > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                              > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                              > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                              > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                              > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                              > > > use God as our scape goat.
                              > > >
                              > > > There are major flaws with all
                              > > > of these religions and the so-called
                              > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                              > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                              > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                              > > > validation is that these various
                              > > > people in history/myth that the
                              > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                              > > > to have said or done some nice,
                              > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                              > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                              > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                              > > > have given them credibility, because
                              > > > it is believed and taught that
                              > > > only Divine Intercession could
                              > > > have been the source for their
                              > > > Divine Inspiration.
                              > > >
                              > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                              > > > today, who are not even followers
                              > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                              > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                              > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                              > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                              > > > of these major and minor religions.
                              > > > Many of these people inspired
                              > > > others by never giving up in time
                              > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                              > > > there weren't many other choices.
                              > > > Even those who did give up and
                              > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                              > > > maintained their faith and this
                              > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                              > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                              > > > for religions there are an awful
                              > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                              > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                              > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                              > > > with unconditional love for the
                              > > > master and you get a submissive
                              > > > control pattern as your reward.
                              > > > Buyer beware!
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                              > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                              > > > an experiment to see if we
                              > > > are all capable of evolving
                              > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                              > > > Are we to become more than
                              > > > merely a divine thought?
                              > > > Maybe there is something
                              > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                              > > > analogy."
                              > > >
                              > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                              > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                              > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                              > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                              > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                              > > >
                              > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                              > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                              > > >
                              > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                              > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                              > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                              > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                              > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                              > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                              > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                              > > >
                              > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                              > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                              > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                              > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                              > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                              > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                              > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                              > > >
                              > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                              > > > that it would ever be necessary.
                              > > >
                              > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                              > > >
                              > > > I AM
                              > > >
                              > > > prometheus wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hello Non and All,
                              > > > > Thanks for the insightful
                              > > > > summary. I was exploring
                              > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                              > > > > charismatic Christian churches
                              > > > > and saw a reference to a
                              > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                              > > > >
                              > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                              > > > >
                              > > > > This person is mentioned
                              > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                              > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                              > > > > Faith.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Even when God seems to
                              > > > > turn his back and: causes
                              > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                              > > > > lost; cities attacked and
                              > > > > overrun by your enemies;
                              > > > > people brutalized, tortured
                              > > > > and killed, one is to have
                              > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                              > > > > reward for keeping this
                              > > > > faith. God's ego needs
                              > > > > you to believe in him
                              > > > > regardless of what pain
                              > > > > he allows to befall you.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > One needs to project
                              > > > > a sense of hope in order
                              > > > > to better endure life, as
                              > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > And, it's easier to face these
                              > > > > challenges when you believe
                              > > > > that God is on your side and
                              > > > > not that of your oppressor.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > However, does God really
                              > > > > take sides? It seems that God
                              > > > > is/was created in man's image.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                              > > > > an experiment to see if we
                              > > > > are all capable of evolving
                              > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                              > > > > Are we to become more than
                              > > > > merely a divine thought?
                              > > > > Maybe there is something
                              > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                              > > > > analogy.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                              > > > > has the belief that you (and your
                              > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                              > > > > deserved the punishments as
                              > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                              > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                              > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                              > > > > most religions see everyday
                              > > > > living and hardships as a test
                              > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                              > > > > to donate money to support
                              > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                              > > > > says and promises the same
                              > > > > or similar things in the imagined
                              > > > > hereafter.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Plus, each religion has always
                              > > > > blamed the non-believers for
                              > > > > the sins that they suffer under
                              > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                              > > > > and Klemp is more like these
                              > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                              > > > > admit.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Well, got to go now....
                              > > > > I just had some thoughts
                              > > > > to share.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Prometheus
                              > > > >
                              > > > "Non" wrote:
                              > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                              > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                              > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                              > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                              > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                              > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                              > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                              > > > answers to ask the master etc.
                              > > > >
                              > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                              > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                              > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                              > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                              > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                              > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                              > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                              > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                              > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                              > > > >
                              > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                              > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                              > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                              > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                              > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                              > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Non ;)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > prometheus wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hello Janice,
                              > > > > Yes, one would think that
                              > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                              > > > > would, at least, attempt
                              > > > > to live up to his PR, but
                              > > > > that's not the case with
                              > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                              > > > > out there by demonstrating
                              > > > > his powers? It's not like
                              > > > > he announced to the
                              > > > > whole world that he was....
                              > > > > oh wait, he did!
                              > > > >
                              > > > > That was a long time ago
                              > > > > and he never did make
                              > > > > any predictions as most
                              > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                              > > > > made some predictions.
                              > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                              > > > > haven't noticed and don't
                              > > > > mine and that's why he
                              > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                              > > > > to preform his responsibilities
                              > > > > as a real prophet.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Instead, Harold is very
                              > > > > cautious of being too
                              > > > > direct and understood.
                              > > > > He'd rather have EKists
                              > > > > fill-in the blanks and
                              > > > > imagine what they want,
                              > > > > need and expect until
                              > > > > they go too far and have
                              > > > > to have a behaviour
                              > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                              > > > > That's why Klemp usually
                              > > > > gives a very one dimensional
                              > > > > perspective when he tells
                              > > > > a story.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                              > > > > why put too much
                              > > > > effort into it! And, he
                              > > > > figures that all he needs
                              > > > > to do is the KISS thing
                              > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                              > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                              > > > > will substitute Soul for
                              > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                              > > > >
                              > > > > It's really quite amazing
                              > > > > how simple Klemp's
                              > > > > redundant message is.
                              > > > > If EKists would just compare
                              > > > > Klemp's simple minded
                              > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                              > > > > leaders one would have
                              > > > > to wonder what they see
                              > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                              > > > > but they just laugh at his
                              > > > > quirkiness because he's
                              > > > > operating on so many
                              > > > > high planes of consciousness
                              > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                              > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                              > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                              > > > > isn't even in the same ball
                              > > > > park with the current Dali
                              > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                              > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                              > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                              > > > > religion while Eckankar
                              > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                              > > > > But, EKists need to compare
                              > > > > the two leaders and how
                              > > > > they present themselves
                              > > > > and what they have to say.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Will ECKists make the
                              > > > > comparison? No, of course
                              > > > > not! They won't even allow
                              > > > > the door to be opened a
                              > > > > crack because some light
                              > > > > might get in and show
                              > > > > them the Truth. They can't
                              > > > > handle the Truth and
                              > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                              > > > > It's much easier, besides,
                              > > > > what would they replace
                              > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                              > > > > responsibility to think for
                              > > > > oneself and exercise free
                              > > > > will. And, it would make
                              > > > > life too lonely to lose all
                              > > > > of those EK friends.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Prometheus
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                              > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                              > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                              > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                              > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                              > > > > charlatan to me.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Prometheus wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The December 2012
                              > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                              > > > > in the Ask the Master
                              > > > > section are two interesting
                              > > > > questions and answers.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The first question has
                              > > > > to do with Stress and
                              > > > > how to overcome it.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                              > > > > washy at best. He says
                              > > > > that stress is "very
                              > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                              > > > > stress is a good teacher."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Klemp goes on to say
                              > > > > that people can increase
                              > > > > their tolerance to stress
                              > > > > by eating healthy, getting
                              > > > > enough sleep, and by
                              > > > > "Reducing our overuse
                              > > > > of electronic devices."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > In other words it seems
                              > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                              > > > > roundabout way, to use
                              > > > > moderation. After all,
                              > > > > he's saying to reduce
                              > > > > "overuse."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Then, again, how does
                              > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                              > > > > not use their computer
                              > > > > 8 hours a day?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The next question involves
                              > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                              > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                              > > > > boy and two days later his
                              > > > > mother translated (died).
                              > > > > He indirectly asked if this
                              > > > > new baby was his mother.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                              > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                              > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                              > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                              > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                              > > > > anything at all can happen...
                              > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                              > > > > son, everything is in accord
                              > > > > with what is best for all around."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Prometheus
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Non and All, Actually, having good interactive relationships with other people isn t necessarily about making new friends nor having the same religious,
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
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                                Hello Non and All,
                                Actually, having good
                                interactive relationships
                                with other people isn't
                                necessarily about making
                                new friends nor having
                                the same religious, political,
                                and lifestyle beliefs.
                                Trying to get others
                                to follow or accept our
                                beliefs isn't the goal.

                                It's more about being
                                "friendly" to/with/for
                                others and, thus, to
                                ourselves. Usually, being
                                friendly and promoting
                                "friendship" (versus making
                                friends) isn't that hard
                                to accomplish. And, if
                                it is, we need to make
                                more of an effort and
                                figure out what it is that's
                                making this difficult.

                                Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                some small talk, and recognizing
                                the other person by looking
                                directly at them goes a
                                long way.

                                We can have a friendship
                                (i.e. relationship) with a
                                clerk whose full name we
                                might not ever know. It's
                                fun to simply, and naturally,
                                smile and be friendly to
                                strangers and acquaintances
                                without expecting anything
                                else. It takes the pressure
                                off everyone when we keep
                                it light. This lightness of
                                Being will help to improve
                                our lives and that of others.

                                It's true that we will never
                                be able to be friendly with
                                some people. And, we won't
                                always be friends with those
                                people we know now. Some
                                people don't deserve our
                                efforts and will never deserve
                                it. They are enemies to what
                                we believe in.

                                And, not all relationships
                                work out nor need to be
                                continued for the sake of
                                all those involved. Sometimes
                                people just have to let go
                                and move on even with
                                family members. But, these
                                are usually relationships
                                that have become complicated
                                via various factors and are
                                usually more one-sided
                                due to a lack of communication,
                                closed mindedness and
                                hurt feelings.

                                Our positive relationships
                                with nature, to animals,
                                and to other people are
                                connections that make our
                                lives worth living.


                                Prometheus





                                "Non" wrote:
                                Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                as far as religion may be growing. :)

                                Non ;)

                                "Non" wrote:
                                >
                                > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                even a twisted moral imperative.
                                >
                                > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                like a small intervention.
                                >
                                > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                >
                                > Non ;)
                                >
                                Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                > >
                                Hi I am,
                                It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                possible and let them go on their way.
                                Thanks for your comments.
                                > >
                                I AM wrote:
                                > >
                                Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                > >
                                > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                > >
                                > > I AM
                                > >
                                Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                > > >
                                Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                tonight.
                                > > >

                                prometheus wrote:
                                > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                > > > will ever become like, God,
                                > > > our imagined or possible
                                > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                > > >
                                > > > But, it could be that the
                                > > > universe(s) just happened
                                > > > and that the remnants of
                                > > > other life forms were spread
                                > > > to this planet, and others,
                                > > > via space rubble... from
                                > > > destroyed civilizations
                                > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                > > > intentional seeding by an
                                > > > advanced race... which was,
                                > > > itself, seeded by another
                                > > > advanced race etc.
                                > > >
                                > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                > > > experiences we have
                                > > > are the result of
                                > > > interaction with the
                                > > > quantum mechanical
                                > > > field?
                                > > >
                                > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                > > > that what really matters
                                > > > are relationships. It's our
                                > > > relationships with others,
                                > > > even strangers, that matter
                                > > > most. This is how we really
                                > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                > > > relationships are valuable.
                                > > >
                                > > > Klemp, and others like
                                > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                > > > have arrested development;
                                > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                > > > or caring about others (are
                                > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                > > > impede social progress and
                                > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                > > > us for their own personal
                                > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                > > >
                                > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                > > > created can make life interesting
                                > > > and a challenge, although,
                                > > > it can/will also be physically
                                > > > and emotionally painful.
                                > > >
                                > > > But, having a regular life
                                > > > without additional commitments
                                > > > and involvements can also
                                > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                > > > and insights. We are never
                                > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                > > > not sure how peace of any
                                > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                > > > will ever happen in a world
                                > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                > > >
                                > > > One must care about everyone
                                > > > and have caring relationships
                                > > > with people in order for humankind
                                > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                > > > too.
                                > > >
                                > > > How can one really "care" about
                                > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                > > > except to keep them away from
                                > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                > > > people.
                                > > >
                                > > > When one thinks about it the
                                > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                > > > seem to be more pathological
                                > > > than the introverts don't you
                                > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                > > > to force us introverts to become
                                > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                > > > is more intimidating.
                                > > >
                                > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                > > > lives because of the differences
                                > > > we see in one another. This is
                                > > > why there are so many different
                                > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                > > > and wrong.
                                > > >
                                > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                > > >
                                > > > There are major flaws with all
                                > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                > > > validation is that these various
                                > > > people in history/myth that the
                                > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                > > > have given them credibility, because
                                > > > it is believed and taught that
                                > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                > > > have been the source for their
                                > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                > > >
                                > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                > > > today, who are not even followers
                                > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                > > > Many of these people inspired
                                > > > others by never giving up in time
                                > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                > > > Even those who did give up and
                                > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                > > > maintained their faith and this
                                > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                > > > for religions there are an awful
                                > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                > > > with unconditional love for the
                                > > > master and you get a submissive
                                > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                > > > Buyer beware!
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                > > > an experiment to see if we
                                > > > are all capable of evolving
                                > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                > > > Are we to become more than
                                > > > merely a divine thought?
                                > > > Maybe there is something
                                > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                > > > analogy."
                              • Non
                                Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
                                  probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
                                  other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
                                  doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.

                                  Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
                                  a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
                                  Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
                                  strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
                                  (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
                                  highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
                                  your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.

                                  Non ;)

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Non and All,
                                  > Actually, having good
                                  > interactive relationships
                                  > with other people isn't
                                  > necessarily about making
                                  > new friends nor having
                                  > the same religious, political,
                                  > and lifestyle beliefs.
                                  > Trying to get others
                                  > to follow or accept our
                                  > beliefs isn't the goal.
                                  >
                                  > It's more about being
                                  > "friendly" to/with/for
                                  > others and, thus, to
                                  > ourselves. Usually, being
                                  > friendly and promoting
                                  > "friendship" (versus making
                                  > friends) isn't that hard
                                  > to accomplish. And, if
                                  > it is, we need to make
                                  > more of an effort and
                                  > figure out what it is that's
                                  > making this difficult.
                                  >
                                  > Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                  > some small talk, and recognizing
                                  > the other person by looking
                                  > directly at them goes a
                                  > long way.
                                  >
                                  > We can have a friendship
                                  > (i.e. relationship) with a
                                  > clerk whose full name we
                                  > might not ever know. It's
                                  > fun to simply, and naturally,
                                  > smile and be friendly to
                                  > strangers and acquaintances
                                  > without expecting anything
                                  > else. It takes the pressure
                                  > off everyone when we keep
                                  > it light. This lightness of
                                  > Being will help to improve
                                  > our lives and that of others.
                                  >
                                  > It's true that we will never
                                  > be able to be friendly with
                                  > some people. And, we won't
                                  > always be friends with those
                                  > people we know now. Some
                                  > people don't deserve our
                                  > efforts and will never deserve
                                  > it. They are enemies to what
                                  > we believe in.
                                  >
                                  > And, not all relationships
                                  > work out nor need to be
                                  > continued for the sake of
                                  > all those involved. Sometimes
                                  > people just have to let go
                                  > and move on even with
                                  > family members. But, these
                                  > are usually relationships
                                  > that have become complicated
                                  > via various factors and are
                                  > usually more one-sided
                                  > due to a lack of communication,
                                  > closed mindedness and
                                  > hurt feelings.
                                  >
                                  > Our positive relationships
                                  > with nature, to animals,
                                  > and to other people are
                                  > connections that make our
                                  > lives worth living.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "Non" wrote:
                                  > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                  > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                  > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                  > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                  > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                  > as far as religion may be growing. :)
                                  >
                                  > Non ;)
                                  >
                                  > "Non" wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                  > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                  > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                  > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                  > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                  > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                  > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                  > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                  > even a twisted moral imperative.
                                  > >
                                  > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                  > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                  > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                  > like a small intervention.
                                  > >
                                  > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                  > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                  > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                  > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                  > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                  > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                  > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                  > >
                                  > > Non ;)
                                  > >
                                  > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > Hi I am,
                                  > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                  > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                  > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                  > possible and let them go on their way.
                                  > Thanks for your comments.
                                  > > >
                                  > I AM wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                  > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                  > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                  > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                  > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I AM
                                  > > >
                                  > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                  > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                  > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                  > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                  > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                  > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                  > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                  > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                  > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                  > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                  > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                  > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                  > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                  > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                  > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                  > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                  > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                  > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                  > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                  > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                  > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                  > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                  > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                  > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                  > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                  > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                  > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                  > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                  > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                  > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                  > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                  > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                  > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                  > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                  > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                  > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                  > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                  > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                  > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                  > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                  > tonight.
                                  > > > >
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                  > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                  > > > > will ever become like, God,
                                  > > > > our imagined or possible
                                  > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                  > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > But, it could be that the
                                  > > > > universe(s) just happened
                                  > > > > and that the remnants of
                                  > > > > other life forms were spread
                                  > > > > to this planet, and others,
                                  > > > > via space rubble... from
                                  > > > > destroyed civilizations
                                  > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                  > > > > intentional seeding by an
                                  > > > > advanced race... which was,
                                  > > > > itself, seeded by another
                                  > > > > advanced race etc.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                  > > > > experiences we have
                                  > > > > are the result of
                                  > > > > interaction with the
                                  > > > > quantum mechanical
                                  > > > > field?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                  > > > > that what really matters
                                  > > > > are relationships. It's our
                                  > > > > relationships with others,
                                  > > > > even strangers, that matter
                                  > > > > most. This is how we really
                                  > > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                  > > > > relationships are valuable.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Klemp, and others like
                                  > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                  > > > > have arrested development;
                                  > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                  > > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                  > > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                  > > > > or caring about others (are
                                  > > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                  > > > > impede social progress and
                                  > > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                  > > > > us for their own personal
                                  > > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                  > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                  > > > > created can make life interesting
                                  > > > > and a challenge, although,
                                  > > > > it can/will also be physically
                                  > > > > and emotionally painful.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > But, having a regular life
                                  > > > > without additional commitments
                                  > > > > and involvements can also
                                  > > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                  > > > > and insights. We are never
                                  > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                  > > > > not sure how peace of any
                                  > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                  > > > > will ever happen in a world
                                  > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > One must care about everyone
                                  > > > > and have caring relationships
                                  > > > > with people in order for humankind
                                  > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                  > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                  > > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                  > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                  > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                  > > > > too.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > How can one really "care" about
                                  > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                  > > > > except to keep them away from
                                  > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                  > > > > people.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > When one thinks about it the
                                  > > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                  > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                  > > > > seem to be more pathological
                                  > > > > than the introverts don't you
                                  > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                  > > > > to force us introverts to become
                                  > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                  > > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                  > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                  > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                  > > > > is more intimidating.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                  > > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                  > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                  > > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                  > > > > lives because of the differences
                                  > > > > we see in one another. This is
                                  > > > > why there are so many different
                                  > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                  > > > > and wrong.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                  > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                  > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                  > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                  > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                  > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                  > > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > There are major flaws with all
                                  > > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                  > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                  > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                  > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                  > > > > validation is that these various
                                  > > > > people in history/myth that the
                                  > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                  > > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                  > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                  > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                  > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                  > > > > have given them credibility, because
                                  > > > > it is believed and taught that
                                  > > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                  > > > > have been the source for their
                                  > > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                  > > > > today, who are not even followers
                                  > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                  > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                  > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                  > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                  > > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                  > > > > Many of these people inspired
                                  > > > > others by never giving up in time
                                  > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                  > > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                  > > > > Even those who did give up and
                                  > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                  > > > > maintained their faith and this
                                  > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                  > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                  > > > > for religions there are an awful
                                  > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                  > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Prometheus
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                  > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                  > > > > with unconditional love for the
                                  > > > > master and you get a submissive
                                  > > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                  > > > > Buyer beware!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                  > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                  > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                  > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                  > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                  > > > > Are we to become more than
                                  > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                  > > > > Maybe there is something
                                  > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                  > > > > analogy."
                                  >
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Really! This is a valid spiritual technique that, unlike those HK hands out and sells, actually works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 18, 2013
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                                    Really! This is a valid spiritual
                                    technique that, unlike those
                                    HK hands out and sells, actually
                                    works:

                                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
                                    > probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
                                    > other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
                                    > doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.
                                    >
                                    > Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
                                    > a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
                                    > Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
                                    > strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
                                    > (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
                                    > highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
                                    > your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.
                                    >
                                    > Non ;)
                                    >
                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Non and All,
                                    > > Actually, having good
                                    > > interactive relationships
                                    > > with other people isn't
                                    > > necessarily about making
                                    > > new friends nor having
                                    > > the same religious, political,
                                    > > and lifestyle beliefs.
                                    > > Trying to get others
                                    > > to follow or accept our
                                    > > beliefs isn't the goal.
                                    > >
                                    > > It's more about being
                                    > > "friendly" to/with/for
                                    > > others and, thus, to
                                    > > ourselves. Usually, being
                                    > > friendly and promoting
                                    > > "friendship" (versus making
                                    > > friends) isn't that hard
                                    > > to accomplish. And, if
                                    > > it is, we need to make
                                    > > more of an effort and
                                    > > figure out what it is that's
                                    > > making this difficult.
                                    > >
                                    > > Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                    > > some small talk, and recognizing
                                    > > the other person by looking
                                    > > directly at them goes a
                                    > > long way.
                                    > >
                                    > > We can have a friendship
                                    > > (i.e. relationship) with a
                                    > > clerk whose full name we
                                    > > might not ever know. It's
                                    > > fun to simply, and naturally,
                                    > > smile and be friendly to
                                    > > strangers and acquaintances
                                    > > without expecting anything
                                    > > else. It takes the pressure
                                    > > off everyone when we keep
                                    > > it light. This lightness of
                                    > > Being will help to improve
                                    > > our lives and that of others.
                                    > >
                                    > > It's true that we will never
                                    > > be able to be friendly with
                                    > > some people. And, we won't
                                    > > always be friends with those
                                    > > people we know now. Some
                                    > > people don't deserve our
                                    > > efforts and will never deserve
                                    > > it. They are enemies to what
                                    > > we believe in.
                                    > >
                                    > > And, not all relationships
                                    > > work out nor need to be
                                    > > continued for the sake of
                                    > > all those involved. Sometimes
                                    > > people just have to let go
                                    > > and move on even with
                                    > > family members. But, these
                                    > > are usually relationships
                                    > > that have become complicated
                                    > > via various factors and are
                                    > > usually more one-sided
                                    > > due to a lack of communication,
                                    > > closed mindedness and
                                    > > hurt feelings.
                                    > >
                                    > > Our positive relationships
                                    > > with nature, to animals,
                                    > > and to other people are
                                    > > connections that make our
                                    > > lives worth living.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > "Non" wrote:
                                    > > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                    > > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                    > > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                    > > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                    > > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                    > > as far as religion may be growing. :)
                                    > >
                                    > > Non ;)
                                    > >
                                    > > "Non" wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                    > > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                    > > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                    > > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                    > > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                    > > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                    > > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                    > > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                    > > even a twisted moral imperative.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                    > > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                    > > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                    > > like a small intervention.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                    > > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                    > > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                    > > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                    > > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                    > > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                    > > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Non ;)
                                    > > >
                                    > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > Hi I am,
                                    > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                    > > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                    > > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                    > > possible and let them go on their way.
                                    > > Thanks for your comments.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > I AM wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                    > > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                    > > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                    > > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                    > > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I AM
                                    > > > >
                                    > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                    > > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                    > > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                    > > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                    > > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                    > > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                    > > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                    > > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                    > > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                    > > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                    > > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                    > > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                    > > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                    > > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                    > > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                    > > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                    > > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                    > > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                    > > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                    > > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                    > > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                    > > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                    > > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                    > > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                    > > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                    > > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                    > > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                    > > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                    > > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                    > > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                    > > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                    > > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                    > > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                    > > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                    > > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                    > > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                    > > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                    > > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                    > > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                    > > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                    > > tonight.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > prometheus wrote:
                                    > > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                    > > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                    > > > > > will ever become like, God,
                                    > > > > > our imagined or possible
                                    > > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                    > > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > But, it could be that the
                                    > > > > > universe(s) just happened
                                    > > > > > and that the remnants of
                                    > > > > > other life forms were spread
                                    > > > > > to this planet, and others,
                                    > > > > > via space rubble... from
                                    > > > > > destroyed civilizations
                                    > > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                    > > > > > intentional seeding by an
                                    > > > > > advanced race... which was,
                                    > > > > > itself, seeded by another
                                    > > > > > advanced race etc.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                    > > > > > experiences we have
                                    > > > > > are the result of
                                    > > > > > interaction with the
                                    > > > > > quantum mechanical
                                    > > > > > field?
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                    > > > > > that what really matters
                                    > > > > > are relationships. It's our
                                    > > > > > relationships with others,
                                    > > > > > even strangers, that matter
                                    > > > > > most. This is how we really
                                    > > > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                    > > > > > relationships are valuable.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Klemp, and others like
                                    > > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                    > > > > > have arrested development;
                                    > > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                    > > > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                    > > > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                    > > > > > or caring about others (are
                                    > > > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                    > > > > > impede social progress and
                                    > > > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                    > > > > > us for their own personal
                                    > > > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                    > > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                    > > > > > created can make life interesting
                                    > > > > > and a challenge, although,
                                    > > > > > it can/will also be physically
                                    > > > > > and emotionally painful.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > But, having a regular life
                                    > > > > > without additional commitments
                                    > > > > > and involvements can also
                                    > > > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                    > > > > > and insights. We are never
                                    > > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                    > > > > > not sure how peace of any
                                    > > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                    > > > > > will ever happen in a world
                                    > > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > One must care about everyone
                                    > > > > > and have caring relationships
                                    > > > > > with people in order for humankind
                                    > > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                    > > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                    > > > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                    > > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                    > > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                    > > > > > too.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > How can one really "care" about
                                    > > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                    > > > > > except to keep them away from
                                    > > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                    > > > > > people.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > When one thinks about it the
                                    > > > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                    > > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                    > > > > > seem to be more pathological
                                    > > > > > than the introverts don't you
                                    > > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                    > > > > > to force us introverts to become
                                    > > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                    > > > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                    > > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                    > > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                    > > > > > is more intimidating.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                    > > > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                    > > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                    > > > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                    > > > > > lives because of the differences
                                    > > > > > we see in one another. This is
                                    > > > > > why there are so many different
                                    > > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                    > > > > > and wrong.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                    > > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                    > > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                    > > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                    > > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                    > > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                    > > > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > There are major flaws with all
                                    > > > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                    > > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                    > > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                    > > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                    > > > > > validation is that these various
                                    > > > > > people in history/myth that the
                                    > > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                    > > > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                    > > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                    > > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                    > > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                    > > > > > have given them credibility, because
                                    > > > > > it is believed and taught that
                                    > > > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                    > > > > > have been the source for their
                                    > > > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                    > > > > > today, who are not even followers
                                    > > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                    > > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                    > > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                    > > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                    > > > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                    > > > > > Many of these people inspired
                                    > > > > > others by never giving up in time
                                    > > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                    > > > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                    > > > > > Even those who did give up and
                                    > > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                    > > > > > maintained their faith and this
                                    > > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                    > > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                    > > > > > for religions there are an awful
                                    > > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                    > > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Prometheus
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                    > > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                    > > > > > with unconditional love for the
                                    > > > > > master and you get a submissive
                                    > > > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                    > > > > > Buyer beware!
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                    > > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                    > > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                    > > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                    > > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                    > > > > > Are we to become more than
                                    > > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                    > > > > > Maybe there is something
                                    > > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                    > > > > > analogy."
                                    > >
                                    >
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