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Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Janice, Yes, one would think that a Modern Day Prophet would, at least, attempt to live up to his PR, but that s not the case with Klemp. Why put
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
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      Hello Janice,
      Yes, one would think that
      a "Modern Day Prophet"
      would, at least, attempt
      to live up to his PR, but
      that's not the case with
      Klemp. Why put himself
      out there by demonstrating
      his powers? It's not like
      he announced to the
      whole world that he was....
      oh wait, he did!

      That was a long time ago
      and he never did make
      any predictions as most
      prophets do. Even Twit
      made some predictions.
      But, I'm sure that EKists
      haven't noticed and don't
      mine and that's why he
      doesn't feel any pressure
      to preform his responsibilities
      as a real prophet.

      Instead, Harold is very
      cautious of being too
      direct and understood.
      He'd rather have EKists
      fill-in the blanks and
      imagine what they want,
      need and expect until
      they go too far and have
      to have a behaviour
      adjustment by their RESA.
      That's why Klemp usually
      gives a very one dimensional
      perspective when he tells
      a story.

      Plus, Klemp's lazy so
      why put too much
      effort into it! And, he
      figures that all he needs
      to do is the KISS thing
      of Keeping It Simple (for)
      Stupid. Of course EKies
      will substitute Soul for
      Stupid but Stupid fits!

      It's really quite amazing
      how simple Klemp's
      redundant message is.
      If EKists would just compare
      Klemp's simple minded
      witticisms to other "spiritual"
      leaders one would have
      to wonder what they see
      in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
      but they just laugh at his
      quirkiness because he's
      operating on so many
      high planes of consciousness
      simultaneously. LOL!

      Just Google Kristamurti's
      quotes or the Dali Lama's.
      Klemp, the great Mahanta,
      isn't even in the same ball
      park with the current Dali
      Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
      (pg. 385) he claims that
      Buddhism is a 4th Plane
      religion while Eckankar
      is a 14th Plane Religion!
      But, EKists need to compare
      the two leaders and how
      they present themselves
      and what they have to say.

      Will ECKists make the
      comparison? No, of course
      not! They won't even allow
      the door to be opened a
      crack because some light
      might get in and show
      them the Truth. They can't
      handle the Truth and
      would rather remain ignorant.
      It's much easier, besides,
      what would they replace
      Eckankar with? It's too much
      responsibility to think for
      oneself and exercise free
      will. And, it would make
      life too lonely to lose all
      of those EK friends.

      Prometheus








      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a charlatan to me.


      Prometheus wrote:

      The December 2012
      Eckankar Mystic World
      in the Ask the Master
      section are two interesting
      questions and answers.

      The first question has
      to do with Stress and
      how to overcome it.

      HK's answer is wishy-
      washy at best. He says
      that stress is "very
      uncomfortable... Yet
      stress is a good teacher."

      Klemp goes on to say
      that people can increase
      their tolerance to stress
      by eating healthy, getting
      enough sleep, and by
      "Reducing our overuse
      of electronic devices."

      In other words it seems
      Klemp is saying, in a
      roundabout way, to use
      moderation. After all,
      he's saying to reduce
      "overuse."

      Then, again, how does
      a EK staffer at the ESC
      not use their computer
      8 hours a day?

      The next question involves
      reincarnation. This guy's
      wife gave birth to a baby
      boy and two days later his
      mother translated (died).
      He indirectly asked if this
      new baby was his mother.

      Instead of giving this EKist
      a direct answer, Klemp,
      the wishy-washy Mahanta
      says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
      When it comes to rebirth,
      anything at all can happen...
      Whichever Soul is now your
      son, everything is in accord
      with what is best for all around."

      Prometheus
    • Non
      So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn t do his own spiritual exercises,
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 5, 2013
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        So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master etc.

        Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)

        They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.

        Non ;)

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
        >
        Hello Janice,
        Yes, one would think that
        a "Modern Day Prophet"
        would, at least, attempt
        to live up to his PR, but
        that's not the case with
        Klemp. Why put himself
        out there by demonstrating
        his powers? It's not like
        he announced to the
        whole world that he was....
        oh wait, he did!

        That was a long time ago
        and he never did make
        any predictions as most
        prophets do. Even Twit
        made some predictions.
        But, I'm sure that EKists
        haven't noticed and don't
        mine and that's why he
        doesn't feel any pressure
        to preform his responsibilities
        as a real prophet.

        Instead, Harold is very
        cautious of being too
        direct and understood.
        He'd rather have EKists
        fill-in the blanks and
        imagine what they want,
        need and expect until
        they go too far and have
        to have a behaviour
        adjustment by their RESA.
        That's why Klemp usually
        gives a very one dimensional
        perspective when he tells
        a story.

        Plus, Klemp's lazy so
        why put too much
        effort into it! And, he
        figures that all he needs
        to do is the KISS thing
        of Keeping It Simple (for)
        Stupid. Of course EKies
        will substitute Soul for
        Stupid but Stupid fits!

        It's really quite amazing
        how simple Klemp's
        redundant message is.
        If EKists would just compare
        Klemp's simple minded
        witticisms to other "spiritual"
        leaders one would have
        to wonder what they see
        in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
        but they just laugh at his
        quirkiness because he's
        operating on so many
        high planes of consciousness
        simultaneously. LOL!

        Just Google Kristamurti's
        quotes or the Dali Lama's.
        Klemp, the great Mahanta,
        isn't even in the same ball
        park with the current Dali
        Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
        (pg. 385) he claims that
        Buddhism is a 4th Plane
        religion while Eckankar
        is a 14th Plane Religion!
        But, EKists need to compare
        the two leaders and how
        they present themselves
        and what they have to say.

        Will ECKists make the
        comparison? No, of course
        not! They won't even allow
        the door to be opened a
        crack because some light
        might get in and show
        them the Truth. They can't
        handle the Truth and
        would rather remain ignorant.
        It's much easier, besides,
        what would they replace
        Eckankar with? It's too much
        responsibility to think for
        oneself and exercise free
        will. And, it would make
        life too lonely to lose all
        of those EK friends.

        Prometheus








        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
        child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
        least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
        afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
        the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
        charlatan to me.


        Prometheus wrote:

        The December 2012
        Eckankar Mystic World
        in the Ask the Master
        section are two interesting
        questions and answers.

        The first question has
        to do with Stress and
        how to overcome it.

        HK's answer is wishy-
        washy at best. He says
        that stress is "very
        uncomfortable... Yet
        stress is a good teacher."

        Klemp goes on to say
        that people can increase
        their tolerance to stress
        by eating healthy, getting
        enough sleep, and by
        "Reducing our overuse
        of electronic devices."

        In other words it seems
        Klemp is saying, in a
        roundabout way, to use
        moderation. After all,
        he's saying to reduce
        "overuse."

        Then, again, how does
        a EK staffer at the ESC
        not use their computer
        8 hours a day?

        The next question involves
        reincarnation. This guy's
        wife gave birth to a baby
        boy and two days later his
        mother translated (died).
        He indirectly asked if this
        new baby was his mother.

        Instead of giving this EKist
        a direct answer, Klemp,
        the wishy-washy Mahanta
        says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
        When it comes to rebirth,
        anything at all can happen...
        Whichever Soul is now your
        son, everything is in accord
        with what is best for all around."

        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Non and All, Thanks for the insightful summary. I was exploring the dogma of some fundamentalist charismatic Christian churches and saw a reference to a
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
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          Hello Non and All,
          Thanks for the insightful
          summary. I was exploring
          the dogma of some fundamentalist
          charismatic Christian churches
          and saw a reference to a
          minor (Jewish) prophet:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk

          This person is mentioned
          not by Jesus but by one of
          his apostles in order to inspire
          Faith.

          Even when God seems to
          turn his back and: causes
          crops to fail; flocks to be
          lost; cities attacked and
          overrun by your enemies;
          people brutalized, tortured
          and killed, one is to have
          Faith in God and a hereafter
          reward for keeping this
          faith. God's ego needs
          you to believe in him
          regardless of what pain
          he allows to befall you.

          One needs to project
          a sense of hope in order
          to better endure life, as
          it is, no matter how bad.

          And, it's easier to face these
          challenges when you believe
          that God is on your side and
          not that of your oppressor.

          However, does God really
          take sides? It seems that God
          is/was created in man's image.

          All of this, it seems, is simply
          an experiment to see if we
          are all capable of evolving
          into our "spiritual" potential.
          Are we to become more than
          merely a divine thought?
          Maybe there is something
          more to that piece of a mirror
          analogy.

          Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
          has the belief that you (and your
          fellow believers or countrymen)
          deserved the punishments as
          repayment for sin. Some call it
          Karma or cause and effect, or
          what you sow you reap. Plus,
          most religions see everyday
          living and hardships as a test
          of faith. Yet, one is supposed
          to donate money to support
          the specific dogma that, basically,
          says and promises the same
          or similar things in the imagined
          hereafter.

          Plus, each religion has always
          blamed the non-believers for
          the sins that they suffer under
          as well. Eckankar is no different
          and Klemp is more like these
          preachers than EKists could ever
          admit.

          Well, got to go now....
          I just had some thoughts
          to share.

          Prometheus

          "Non" wrote:
          So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
          compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises,
          because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe
          a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
          material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
          "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
          and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
          crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master
          etc.

          Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new
          World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
          anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
          admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
          always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet
          in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
          stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck
          master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
          is a more appropriate title to his life story.)

          They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
          think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
          advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on
          the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
          drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it
          is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.

          Non ;)

          prometheus wrote:

          Hello Janice,
          Yes, one would think that
          a "Modern Day Prophet"
          would, at least, attempt
          to live up to his PR, but
          that's not the case with
          Klemp. Why put himself
          out there by demonstrating
          his powers? It's not like
          he announced to the
          whole world that he was....
          oh wait, he did!

          That was a long time ago
          and he never did make
          any predictions as most
          prophets do. Even Twit
          made some predictions.
          But, I'm sure that EKists
          haven't noticed and don't
          mine and that's why he
          doesn't feel any pressure
          to preform his responsibilities
          as a real prophet.

          Instead, Harold is very
          cautious of being too
          direct and understood.
          He'd rather have EKists
          fill-in the blanks and
          imagine what they want,
          need and expect until
          they go too far and have
          to have a behaviour
          adjustment by their RESA.
          That's why Klemp usually
          gives a very one dimensional
          perspective when he tells
          a story.

          Plus, Klemp's lazy so
          why put too much
          effort into it! And, he
          figures that all he needs
          to do is the KISS thing
          of Keeping It Simple (for)
          Stupid. Of course EKies
          will substitute Soul for
          Stupid but Stupid fits!

          It's really quite amazing
          how simple Klemp's
          redundant message is.
          If EKists would just compare
          Klemp's simple minded
          witticisms to other "spiritual"
          leaders one would have
          to wonder what they see
          in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
          but they just laugh at his
          quirkiness because he's
          operating on so many
          high planes of consciousness
          simultaneously. LOL!

          Just Google Kristamurti's
          quotes or the Dali Lama's.
          Klemp, the great Mahanta,
          isn't even in the same ball
          park with the current Dali
          Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
          (pg. 385) he claims that
          Buddhism is a 4th Plane
          religion while Eckankar
          is a 14th Plane Religion!
          But, EKists need to compare
          the two leaders and how
          they present themselves
          and what they have to say.

          Will ECKists make the
          comparison? No, of course
          not! They won't even allow
          the door to be opened a
          crack because some light
          might get in and show
          them the Truth. They can't
          handle the Truth and
          would rather remain ignorant.
          It's much easier, besides,
          what would they replace
          Eckankar with? It's too much
          responsibility to think for
          oneself and exercise free
          will. And, it would make
          life too lonely to lose all
          of those EK friends.

          Prometheus


          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
          child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
          least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
          afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
          the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
          charlatan to me.


          Prometheus wrote:

          The December 2012
          Eckankar Mystic World
          in the Ask the Master
          section are two interesting
          questions and answers.

          The first question has
          to do with Stress and
          how to overcome it.

          HK's answer is wishy-
          washy at best. He says
          that stress is "very
          uncomfortable... Yet
          stress is a good teacher."

          Klemp goes on to say
          that people can increase
          their tolerance to stress
          by eating healthy, getting
          enough sleep, and by
          "Reducing our overuse
          of electronic devices."

          In other words it seems
          Klemp is saying, in a
          roundabout way, to use
          moderation. After all,
          he's saying to reduce
          "overuse."

          Then, again, how does
          a EK staffer at the ESC
          not use their computer
          8 hours a day?

          The next question involves
          reincarnation. This guy's
          wife gave birth to a baby
          boy and two days later his
          mother translated (died).
          He indirectly asked if this
          new baby was his mother.

          Instead of giving this EKist
          a direct answer, Klemp,
          the wishy-washy Mahanta
          says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
          When it comes to rebirth,
          anything at all can happen...
          Whichever Soul is now your
          son, everything is in accord
          with what is best for all around."

          Prometheus
        • iam999freedom
          Yes Non, combine authoritarianism with unconditional love for the master and you get a submissive control pattern as your reward. Buyer beware! Prometheus, you
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Yes Non, combine authoritarianism with unconditional love for the master and you get a submissive control pattern as your reward. Buyer beware!

            Prometheus, you wrote:
            "All of this, it seems, is simply
            an experiment to see if we
            are all capable of evolving
            into our "spiritual" potential.
            Are we to become more than
            merely a divine thought?
            Maybe there is something
            more to that piece of a mirror
            analogy."

            I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again. I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the end result of the mirror analagy.

            I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

            I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event. Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more meaning than being in a pinball machine.

            Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

            Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think that it would ever be necessary.

            Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

            I AM

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
            >
            > Hello Non and All,
            > Thanks for the insightful
            > summary. I was exploring
            > the dogma of some fundamentalist
            > charismatic Christian churches
            > and saw a reference to a
            > minor (Jewish) prophet:
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
            >
            > This person is mentioned
            > not by Jesus but by one of
            > his apostles in order to inspire
            > Faith.
            >
            > Even when God seems to
            > turn his back and: causes
            > crops to fail; flocks to be
            > lost; cities attacked and
            > overrun by your enemies;
            > people brutalized, tortured
            > and killed, one is to have
            > Faith in God and a hereafter
            > reward for keeping this
            > faith. God's ego needs
            > you to believe in him
            > regardless of what pain
            > he allows to befall you.
            >
            > One needs to project
            > a sense of hope in order
            > to better endure life, as
            > it is, no matter how bad.
            >
            > And, it's easier to face these
            > challenges when you believe
            > that God is on your side and
            > not that of your oppressor.
            >
            > However, does God really
            > take sides? It seems that God
            > is/was created in man's image.
            >
            > All of this, it seems, is simply
            > an experiment to see if we
            > are all capable of evolving
            > into our "spiritual" potential.
            > Are we to become more than
            > merely a divine thought?
            > Maybe there is something
            > more to that piece of a mirror
            > analogy.
            >
            > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
            > has the belief that you (and your
            > fellow believers or countrymen)
            > deserved the punishments as
            > repayment for sin. Some call it
            > Karma or cause and effect, or
            > what you sow you reap. Plus,
            > most religions see everyday
            > living and hardships as a test
            > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
            > to donate money to support
            > the specific dogma that, basically,
            > says and promises the same
            > or similar things in the imagined
            > hereafter.
            >
            > Plus, each religion has always
            > blamed the non-believers for
            > the sins that they suffer under
            > as well. Eckankar is no different
            > and Klemp is more like these
            > preachers than EKists could ever
            > admit.
            >
            > Well, got to go now....
            > I just had some thoughts
            > to share.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > "Non" wrote:
            > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
            > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises,
            > because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe
            > a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
            > material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
            > "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
            > and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
            > crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master
            > etc.
            >
            > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new
            > World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
            > anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
            > admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
            > always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet
            > in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
            > stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck
            > master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
            > is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
            >
            > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
            > think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
            > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on
            > the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
            > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it
            > is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
            >
            > Non ;)
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello Janice,
            > Yes, one would think that
            > a "Modern Day Prophet"
            > would, at least, attempt
            > to live up to his PR, but
            > that's not the case with
            > Klemp. Why put himself
            > out there by demonstrating
            > his powers? It's not like
            > he announced to the
            > whole world that he was....
            > oh wait, he did!
            >
            > That was a long time ago
            > and he never did make
            > any predictions as most
            > prophets do. Even Twit
            > made some predictions.
            > But, I'm sure that EKists
            > haven't noticed and don't
            > mine and that's why he
            > doesn't feel any pressure
            > to preform his responsibilities
            > as a real prophet.
            >
            > Instead, Harold is very
            > cautious of being too
            > direct and understood.
            > He'd rather have EKists
            > fill-in the blanks and
            > imagine what they want,
            > need and expect until
            > they go too far and have
            > to have a behaviour
            > adjustment by their RESA.
            > That's why Klemp usually
            > gives a very one dimensional
            > perspective when he tells
            > a story.
            >
            > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
            > why put too much
            > effort into it! And, he
            > figures that all he needs
            > to do is the KISS thing
            > of Keeping It Simple (for)
            > Stupid. Of course EKies
            > will substitute Soul for
            > Stupid but Stupid fits!
            >
            > It's really quite amazing
            > how simple Klemp's
            > redundant message is.
            > If EKists would just compare
            > Klemp's simple minded
            > witticisms to other "spiritual"
            > leaders one would have
            > to wonder what they see
            > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
            > but they just laugh at his
            > quirkiness because he's
            > operating on so many
            > high planes of consciousness
            > simultaneously. LOL!
            >
            > Just Google Kristamurti's
            > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
            > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
            > isn't even in the same ball
            > park with the current Dali
            > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
            > (pg. 385) he claims that
            > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
            > religion while Eckankar
            > is a 14th Plane Religion!
            > But, EKists need to compare
            > the two leaders and how
            > they present themselves
            > and what they have to say.
            >
            > Will ECKists make the
            > comparison? No, of course
            > not! They won't even allow
            > the door to be opened a
            > crack because some light
            > might get in and show
            > them the Truth. They can't
            > handle the Truth and
            > would rather remain ignorant.
            > It's much easier, besides,
            > what would they replace
            > Eckankar with? It's too much
            > responsibility to think for
            > oneself and exercise free
            > will. And, it would make
            > life too lonely to lose all
            > of those EK friends.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
            > child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
            > least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
            > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
            > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
            > charlatan to me.
            >
            >
            > Prometheus wrote:
            >
            > The December 2012
            > Eckankar Mystic World
            > in the Ask the Master
            > section are two interesting
            > questions and answers.
            >
            > The first question has
            > to do with Stress and
            > how to overcome it.
            >
            > HK's answer is wishy-
            > washy at best. He says
            > that stress is "very
            > uncomfortable... Yet
            > stress is a good teacher."
            >
            > Klemp goes on to say
            > that people can increase
            > their tolerance to stress
            > by eating healthy, getting
            > enough sleep, and by
            > "Reducing our overuse
            > of electronic devices."
            >
            > In other words it seems
            > Klemp is saying, in a
            > roundabout way, to use
            > moderation. After all,
            > he's saying to reduce
            > "overuse."
            >
            > Then, again, how does
            > a EK staffer at the ESC
            > not use their computer
            > 8 hours a day?
            >
            > The next question involves
            > reincarnation. This guy's
            > wife gave birth to a baby
            > boy and two days later his
            > mother translated (died).
            > He indirectly asked if this
            > new baby was his mother.
            >
            > Instead of giving this EKist
            > a direct answer, Klemp,
            > the wishy-washy Mahanta
            > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
            > When it comes to rebirth,
            > anything at all can happen...
            > Whichever Soul is now your
            > son, everything is in accord
            > with what is best for all around."
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello I Am, Non, and All, I m not so sure that humans will ever become like, God, our imagined or possible creator. And, if at all, certainly not in any
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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              Hello I Am, Non, and All,
              I'm not so sure that humans
              will ever become like, God,
              our imagined or possible
              creator. And, if at all, certainly
              not in any lifetime soon.

              But, it could be that the
              universe(s) just happened
              and that the remnants of
              other life forms were spread
              to this planet, and others,
              via space rubble... from
              destroyed civilizations
              and planets. Or, was it an
              intentional seeding by an
              advanced race... which was,
              itself, seeded by another
              advanced race etc.

              Maybe the "spiritual"
              experiences we have
              are the result of
              interaction with the
              quantum mechanical
              field?

              Anyway, it seems to me
              that what really matters
              are relationships. It's our
              relationships with others,
              even strangers, that matter
              most. This is how we really
              learn and grow. Loving
              relationships are valuable.

              Klemp, and others like
              him, are: liars; posers;
              have arrested development;
              are sociopathic; narcissistic;
              and are even psychopathic.
              They are incapable of learning,
              or caring about others (are
              unloving) and attempt to
              impede social progress and
              justice. They use the rest of
              us for their own personal
              greed and selfish desires.

              Then, again, this strife and
              uncertainly (stress) that is
              created can make life interesting
              and a challenge, although,
              it can/will also be physically
              and emotionally painful.

              But, having a regular life
              without additional commitments
              and involvements can also
              offer rewarding experiences
              and insights. We are never
              all that alone. However, I'm
              not sure how peace of any
              sort (except in one's own mind)
              will ever happen in a world
              controlled by sociopaths.

              One must care about everyone
              and have caring relationships
              with people in order for humankind
              to advance and survive. To me,
              this is the "spiritual" key to life.
              I almost included animals, too,
              but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
              include "caring" about them (all)
              too.

              How can one really "care" about
              the sociopaths and psychopaths
              except to keep them away from
              nice, loving and kind (normal?)
              people.

              When one thinks about it the
              definition of what's "normal"
              keeps changing. The extroverts
              seem to be more pathological
              than the introverts don't you
              agree? Yet, the extroverts try
              to force us introverts to become
              extroverted. Why is that? Misery
              loves company I suppose or is
              it that an army of glassy-eyed
              introverts acting, as if, extroverted
              is more intimidating.

              In any case the idea of a "God"
              to worship and viewed as being
              "involved" in our lives detracts
              from "us" being involved in our
              lives because of the differences
              we see in one another. This is
              why there are so many different
              religious dogmas of what's right
              and wrong.

              Therefore, the differences in the
              way in which "God" is worshipped,
              for me, shows that "God" does not
              exist. We don't want to be alone
              nor take responsibility for our own
              actions. Thus, we blame God or
              use God as our scape goat.

              There are major flaws with all
              of these religions and the so-called
              "source" of their scriptures. It's
              all hearsay and the only thing
              that, supposedly, gives them
              validation is that these various
              people in history/myth that the
              scribes wrote about are claimed
              to have said or done some nice,
              inspirational, brave, or insightful
              things a very long time ago. Age/
              time (being ancient) seems to
              have given them credibility, because
              it is believed and taught that
              only Divine Intercession could
              have been the source for their
              Divine Inspiration.

              But, IMO, there are many people,
              today, who are not even followers
              of these dogmas that are as, or
              more: honest; brave; insightful;
              inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
              than the prophets, saints, and founders
              of these major and minor religions.
              Many of these people inspired
              others by never giving up in time
              of conflict because, sometimes,
              there weren't many other choices.
              Even those who did give up and
              had bad things befall them, still,
              maintained their faith and this
              fact turned them into "prophets"
              or saints. If this is the standard
              for religions there are an awful
              lot of believers and faithful, today,
              that just as deluded and desperate.

              Prometheus


              iam999freedom" wrote:
              Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
              with unconditional love for the
              master and you get a submissive
              control pattern as your reward.
              Buyer beware!

              Prometheus, you wrote:
              "All of this, it seems, is simply
              an experiment to see if we
              are all capable of evolving
              into our "spiritual" potential.
              Are we to become more than
              merely a divine thought?
              Maybe there is something
              more to that piece of a mirror
              analogy."

              I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
              shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
              I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
              stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
              the end result of the mirror analagy.

              I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
              see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

              I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
              or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
              Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
              has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
              lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
              from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
              meaning than being in a pinball machine.

              Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
              spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
              lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
              and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
              needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
              would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
              It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

              Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
              that it would ever be necessary.

              Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

              I AM

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello Non and All,
              > Thanks for the insightful
              > summary. I was exploring
              > the dogma of some fundamentalist
              > charismatic Christian churches
              > and saw a reference to a
              > minor (Jewish) prophet:
              >
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
              >
              > This person is mentioned
              > not by Jesus but by one of
              > his apostles in order to inspire
              > Faith.
              >
              > Even when God seems to
              > turn his back and: causes
              > crops to fail; flocks to be
              > lost; cities attacked and
              > overrun by your enemies;
              > people brutalized, tortured
              > and killed, one is to have
              > Faith in God and a hereafter
              > reward for keeping this
              > faith. God's ego needs
              > you to believe in him
              > regardless of what pain
              > he allows to befall you.
              >
              > One needs to project
              > a sense of hope in order
              > to better endure life, as
              > it is, no matter how bad.
              >
              > And, it's easier to face these
              > challenges when you believe
              > that God is on your side and
              > not that of your oppressor.
              >
              > However, does God really
              > take sides? It seems that God
              > is/was created in man's image.
              >
              > All of this, it seems, is simply
              > an experiment to see if we
              > are all capable of evolving
              > into our "spiritual" potential.
              > Are we to become more than
              > merely a divine thought?
              > Maybe there is something
              > more to that piece of a mirror
              > analogy.
              >
              > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
              > has the belief that you (and your
              > fellow believers or countrymen)
              > deserved the punishments as
              > repayment for sin. Some call it
              > Karma or cause and effect, or
              > what you sow you reap. Plus,
              > most religions see everyday
              > living and hardships as a test
              > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
              > to donate money to support
              > the specific dogma that, basically,
              > says and promises the same
              > or similar things in the imagined
              > hereafter.
              >
              > Plus, each religion has always
              > blamed the non-believers for
              > the sins that they suffer under
              > as well. Eckankar is no different
              > and Klemp is more like these
              > preachers than EKists could ever
              > admit.
              >
              > Well, got to go now....
              > I just had some thoughts
              > to share.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              "Non" wrote:
              So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
              compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
              exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
              beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
              from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
              tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
              he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
              answers to ask the master etc.
              >
              Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
              as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
              not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
              is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
              Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
              leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
              him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
              with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
              by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
              >
              They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
              you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
              advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
              on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
              drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
              it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
              >
              > Non ;)
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello Janice,
              > Yes, one would think that
              > a "Modern Day Prophet"
              > would, at least, attempt
              > to live up to his PR, but
              > that's not the case with
              > Klemp. Why put himself
              > out there by demonstrating
              > his powers? It's not like
              > he announced to the
              > whole world that he was....
              > oh wait, he did!
              >
              > That was a long time ago
              > and he never did make
              > any predictions as most
              > prophets do. Even Twit
              > made some predictions.
              > But, I'm sure that EKists
              > haven't noticed and don't
              > mine and that's why he
              > doesn't feel any pressure
              > to preform his responsibilities
              > as a real prophet.
              >
              > Instead, Harold is very
              > cautious of being too
              > direct and understood.
              > He'd rather have EKists
              > fill-in the blanks and
              > imagine what they want,
              > need and expect until
              > they go too far and have
              > to have a behaviour
              > adjustment by their RESA.
              > That's why Klemp usually
              > gives a very one dimensional
              > perspective when he tells
              > a story.
              >
              > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
              > why put too much
              > effort into it! And, he
              > figures that all he needs
              > to do is the KISS thing
              > of Keeping It Simple (for)
              > Stupid. Of course EKies
              > will substitute Soul for
              > Stupid but Stupid fits!
              >
              > It's really quite amazing
              > how simple Klemp's
              > redundant message is.
              > If EKists would just compare
              > Klemp's simple minded
              > witticisms to other "spiritual"
              > leaders one would have
              > to wonder what they see
              > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
              > but they just laugh at his
              > quirkiness because he's
              > operating on so many
              > high planes of consciousness
              > simultaneously. LOL!
              >
              > Just Google Kristamurti's
              > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
              > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
              > isn't even in the same ball
              > park with the current Dali
              > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
              > (pg. 385) he claims that
              > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
              > religion while Eckankar
              > is a 14th Plane Religion!
              > But, EKists need to compare
              > the two leaders and how
              > they present themselves
              > and what they have to say.
              >
              > Will ECKists make the
              > comparison? No, of course
              > not! They won't even allow
              > the door to be opened a
              > crack because some light
              > might get in and show
              > them the Truth. They can't
              > handle the Truth and
              > would rather remain ignorant.
              > It's much easier, besides,
              > what would they replace
              > Eckankar with? It's too much
              > responsibility to think for
              > oneself and exercise free
              > will. And, it would make
              > life too lonely to lose all
              > of those EK friends.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
              > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
              > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
              > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
              > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
              > charlatan to me.
              >
              >
              > Prometheus wrote:
              >
              > The December 2012
              > Eckankar Mystic World
              > in the Ask the Master
              > section are two interesting
              > questions and answers.
              >
              > The first question has
              > to do with Stress and
              > how to overcome it.
              >
              > HK's answer is wishy-
              > washy at best. He says
              > that stress is "very
              > uncomfortable... Yet
              > stress is a good teacher."
              >
              > Klemp goes on to say
              > that people can increase
              > their tolerance to stress
              > by eating healthy, getting
              > enough sleep, and by
              > "Reducing our overuse
              > of electronic devices."
              >
              > In other words it seems
              > Klemp is saying, in a
              > roundabout way, to use
              > moderation. After all,
              > he's saying to reduce
              > "overuse."
              >
              > Then, again, how does
              > a EK staffer at the ESC
              > not use their computer
              > 8 hours a day?
              >
              > The next question involves
              > reincarnation. This guy's
              > wife gave birth to a baby
              > boy and two days later his
              > mother translated (died).
              > He indirectly asked if this
              > new baby was his mother.
              >
              > Instead of giving this EKist
              > a direct answer, Klemp,
              > the wishy-washy Mahanta
              > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
              > When it comes to rebirth,
              > anything at all can happen...
              > Whichever Soul is now your
              > son, everything is in accord
              > with what is best for all around."
              >
              > Prometheus
            • Janice Pfeiffer
              Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 

                --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM

                 
                Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                I'm not so sure that humans
                will ever become like, God,
                our imagined or possible
                creator. And, if at all, certainly
                not in any lifetime soon.

                But, it could be that the
                universe(s) just happened
                and that the remnants of
                other life forms were spread
                to this planet, and others,
                via space rubble... from
                destroyed civilizations
                and planets. Or, was it an
                intentional seeding by an
                advanced race... which was,
                itself, seeded by another
                advanced race etc.

                Maybe the "spiritual"
                experiences we have
                are the result of
                interaction with the
                quantum mechanical
                field?

                Anyway, it seems to me
                that what really matters
                are relationships. It's our
                relationships with others,
                even strangers, that matter
                most. This is how we really
                learn and grow. Loving
                relationships are valuable.

                Klemp, and others like
                him, are: liars; posers;
                have arrested development;
                are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                and are even psychopathic.
                They are incapable of learning,
                or caring about others (are
                unloving) and attempt to
                impede social progress and
                justice. They use the rest of
                us for their own personal
                greed and selfish desires.

                Then, again, this strife and
                uncertainly (stress) that is
                created can make life interesting
                and a challenge, although,
                it can/will also be physically
                and emotionally painful.

                But, having a regular life
                without additional commitments
                and involvements can also
                offer rewarding experiences
                and insights. We are never
                all that alone. However, I'm
                not sure how peace of any
                sort (except in one's own mind)
                will ever happen in a world
                controlled by sociopaths.

                One must care about everyone
                and have caring relationships
                with people in order for humankind
                to advance and survive. To me,
                this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                I almost included animals, too,
                but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                include "caring" about them (all)
                too.

                How can one really "care" about
                the sociopaths and psychopaths
                except to keep them away from
                nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                people.

                When one thinks about it the
                definition of what's "normal"
                keeps changing. The extroverts
                seem to be more pathological
                than the introverts don't you
                agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                to force us introverts to become
                extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                loves company I suppose or is
                it that an army of glassy-eyed
                introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                is more intimidating.

                In any case the idea of a "God"
                to worship and viewed as being
                "involved" in our lives detracts
                from "us" being involved in our
                lives because of the differences
                we see in one another. This is
                why there are so many different
                religious dogmas of what's right
                and wrong.

                Therefore, the differences in the
                way in which "God" is worshipped,
                for me, shows that "God" does not
                exist. We don't want to be alone
                nor take responsibility for our own
                actions. Thus, we blame God or
                use God as our scape goat.

                There are major flaws with all
                of these religions and the so-called
                "source" of their scriptures. It's
                all hearsay and the only thing
                that, supposedly, gives them
                validation is that these various
                people in history/myth that the
                scribes wrote about are claimed
                to have said or done some nice,
                inspirational, brave, or insightful
                things a very long time ago. Age/
                time (being ancient) seems to
                have given them credibility, because
                it is believed and taught that
                only Divine Intercession could
                have been the source for their
                Divine Inspiration.

                But, IMO, there are many people,
                today, who are not even followers
                of these dogmas that are as, or
                more: honest; brave; insightful;
                inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                than the prophets, saints, and founders
                of these major and minor religions.
                Many of these people inspired
                others by never giving up in time
                of conflict because, sometimes,
                there weren't many other choices.
                Even those who did give up and
                had bad things befall them, still,
                maintained their faith and this
                fact turned them into "prophets"
                or saints. If this is the standard
                for religions there are an awful
                lot of believers and faithful, today,
                that just as deluded and desperate.

                Prometheus


                iam999freedom" wrote:
                Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                with unconditional love for the
                master and you get a submissive
                control pattern as your reward.
                Buyer beware!

                Prometheus, you wrote:
                "All of this, it seems, is simply
                an experiment to see if we
                are all capable of evolving
                into our "spiritual" potential.
                Are we to become more than
                merely a divine thought?
                Maybe there is something
                more to that piece of a mirror
                analogy."

                I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                the end result of the mirror analagy.

                I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

                I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                meaning than being in a pinball machine.

                Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

                Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                that it would ever be necessary.

                Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

                I AM

                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello Non and All,
                > Thanks for the insightful
                > summary. I was exploring
                > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                > charismatic Christian churches
                > and saw a reference to a
                > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                >
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                >
                > This person is mentioned
                > not by Jesus but by one of
                > his apostles in order to inspire
                > Faith.
                >
                > Even when God seems to
                > turn his back and: causes
                > crops to fail; flocks to be
                > lost; cities attacked and
                > overrun by your enemies;
                > people brutalized, tortured
                > and killed, one is to have
                > Faith in God and a hereafter
                > reward for keeping this
                > faith. God's ego needs
                > you to believe in him
                > regardless of what pain
                > he allows to befall you.
                >
                > One needs to project
                > a sense of hope in order
                > to better endure life, as
                > it is, no matter how bad.
                >
                > And, it's easier to face these
                > challenges when you believe
                > that God is on your side and
                > not that of your oppressor.
                >
                > However, does God really
                > take sides? It seems that God
                > is/was created in man's image.
                >
                > All of this, it seems, is simply
                > an experiment to see if we
                > are all capable of evolving
                > into our "spiritual" potential.
                > Are we to become more than
                > merely a divine thought?
                > Maybe there is something
                > more to that piece of a mirror
                > analogy.
                >
                > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                > has the belief that you (and your
                > fellow believers or countrymen)
                > deserved the punishments as
                > repayment for sin. Some call it
                > Karma or cause and effect, or
                > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                > most religions see everyday
                > living and hardships as a test
                > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                > to donate money to support
                > the specific dogma that, basically,
                > says and promises the same
                > or similar things in the imagined
                > hereafter.
                >
                > Plus, each religion has always
                > blamed the non-believers for
                > the sins that they suffer under
                > as well. Eckankar is no different
                > and Klemp is more like these
                > preachers than EKists could ever
                > admit.
                >
                > Well, got to go now....
                > I just had some thoughts
                > to share.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                "Non" wrote:
                So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                answers to ask the master etc.
                >
                Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                >
                They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                >
                > Non ;)
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello Janice,
                > Yes, one would think that
                > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                > would, at least, attempt
                > to live up to his PR, but
                > that's not the case with
                > Klemp. Why put himself
                > out there by demonstrating
                > his powers? It's not like
                > he announced to the
                > whole world that he was....
                > oh wait, he did!
                >
                > That was a long time ago
                > and he never did make
                > any predictions as most
                > prophets do. Even Twit
                > made some predictions.
                > But, I'm sure that EKists
                > haven't noticed and don't
                > mine and that's why he
                > doesn't feel any pressure
                > to preform his responsibilities
                > as a real prophet.
                >
                > Instead, Harold is very
                > cautious of being too
                > direct and understood.
                > He'd rather have EKists
                > fill-in the blanks and
                > imagine what they want,
                > need and expect until
                > they go too far and have
                > to have a behaviour
                > adjustment by their RESA.
                > That's why Klemp usually
                > gives a very one dimensional
                > perspective when he tells
                > a story.
                >
                > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                > why put too much
                > effort into it! And, he
                > figures that all he needs
                > to do is the KISS thing
                > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                > Stupid. Of course EKies
                > will substitute Soul for
                > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                >
                > It's really quite amazing
                > how simple Klemp's
                > redundant message is.
                > If EKists would just compare
                > Klemp's simple minded
                > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                > leaders one would have
                > to wonder what they see
                > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                > but they just laugh at his
                > quirkiness because he's
                > operating on so many
                > high planes of consciousness
                > simultaneously. LOL!
                >
                > Just Google Kristamurti's
                > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                > isn't even in the same ball
                > park with the current Dali
                > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                > (pg. 385) he claims that
                > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                > religion while Eckankar
                > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                > But, EKists need to compare
                > the two leaders and how
                > they present themselves
                > and what they have to say.
                >
                > Will ECKists make the
                > comparison? No, of course
                > not! They won't even allow
                > the door to be opened a
                > crack because some light
                > might get in and show
                > them the Truth. They can't
                > handle the Truth and
                > would rather remain ignorant.
                > It's much easier, besides,
                > what would they replace
                > Eckankar with? It's too much
                > responsibility to think for
                > oneself and exercise free
                > will. And, it would make
                > life too lonely to lose all
                > of those EK friends.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                > charlatan to me.
                >
                >
                > Prometheus wrote:
                >
                > The December 2012
                > Eckankar Mystic World
                > in the Ask the Master
                > section are two interesting
                > questions and answers.
                >
                > The first question has
                > to do with Stress and
                > how to overcome it.
                >
                > HK's answer is wishy-
                > washy at best. He says
                > that stress is "very
                > uncomfortable... Yet
                > stress is a good teacher."
                >
                > Klemp goes on to say
                > that people can increase
                > their tolerance to stress
                > by eating healthy, getting
                > enough sleep, and by
                > "Reducing our overuse
                > of electronic devices."
                >
                > In other words it seems
                > Klemp is saying, in a
                > roundabout way, to use
                > moderation. After all,
                > he's saying to reduce
                > "overuse."
                >
                > Then, again, how does
                > a EK staffer at the ESC
                > not use their computer
                > 8 hours a day?
                >
                > The next question involves
                > reincarnation. This guy's
                > wife gave birth to a baby
                > boy and two days later his
                > mother translated (died).
                > He indirectly asked if this
                > new baby was his mother.
                >
                > Instead of giving this EKist
                > a direct answer, Klemp,
                > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                > When it comes to rebirth,
                > anything at all can happen...
                > Whichever Soul is now your
                > son, everything is in accord
                > with what is best for all around."
                >
                > Prometheus

              • tuza8
                Hi prometheus973,I agree what you said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name is master ching hai, master ching hai claim
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi prometheus973,I agree what you
                  said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name is master ching hai, master ching hai claim herself is 8 billion plane initiation level,do you believe it?in 1985 she become master and began taught mediatation on light and sound,whom said come from higher world into this lower world ,her also said come to this lower world many times,alway is a master for help people.do you believe?
                  --- In EckankarSurvirvorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                  > I'm not so sure that humans
                  > will ever become like, God,
                  > our imagined or possible
                  > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                  > not in any lifetime soon.
                  >
                  > But, it could be that the
                  > universe(s) just happened
                  > and that the remnants of
                  > other life forms were spread
                  > to this planet, and others,
                  > via space rubble... from
                  > destroyed civilizations
                  > and planets. Or, was it an
                  > intentional seeding by an
                  > advanced race... which was,
                  > itself, seeded by another
                  > advanced race etc.
                  >
                  > Maybe the "spiritual"
                  > experiences we have
                  > are the result of
                  > interaction with the
                  > quantum mechanical
                  > field?
                  >
                  > Anyway, it seems to me
                  > that what really matters
                  > are relationships. It's our
                  > relationships with others,
                  > even strangers, that matter
                  > most. This is how we really
                  > learn and grow. Loving
                  > relationships are valuable.
                  >
                  > Klemp, and others like
                  > him, are: liars; posers;
                  > have arrested development;
                  > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                  > and are even psychopathic.
                  > They are incapable of learning,
                  > or caring about others (are
                  > unloving) and attempt to
                  > impede social progress and
                  > justice. They use the rest of
                  > us for their own personal
                  > greed and selfish desires.
                  >
                  > Then, again, this strife and
                  > uncertainly (stress) that is
                  > created can make life interesting
                  > and a challenge, although,
                  > it can/will also be physically
                  > and emotionally painful.
                  >
                  > But, having a regular life
                  > without additional commitments
                  > and involvements can also
                  > offer rewarding experiences
                  > and insights. We are never
                  > all that alone. However, I'm
                  > not sure how peace of any
                  > sort (except in one's own mind)
                  > will ever happen in a world
                  > controlled by sociopaths.
                  >
                  > One must care about everyone
                  > and have caring relationships
                  > with people in order for humankind
                  > to advance and survive. To me,
                  > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                  > I almost included animals, too,
                  > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                  > include "caring" about them (all)
                  > too.
                  >
                  > How can one really "care" about
                  > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                  > except to keep them away from
                  > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                  > people.
                  >
                  > When one thinks about it the
                  > definition of what's "normal"
                  > keeps changing. The extroverts
                  > seem to be more pathological
                  > than the introverts don't you
                  > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                  > to force us introverts to become
                  > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                  > loves company I suppose or is
                  > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                  > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                  > is more intimidating.
                  >
                  > In any case the idea of a "God"
                  > to worship and viewed as being
                  > "involved" in our lives detracts
                  > from "us" being involved in our
                  > lives because of the differences
                  > we see in one another. This is
                  > why there are so many different
                  > religious dogmas of what's right
                  > and wrong.
                  >
                  > Therefore, the differences in the
                  > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                  > for me, shows that "God" does not
                  > exist. We don't want to be alone
                  > nor take responsibility for our own
                  > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                  > use God as our scape goat.
                  >
                  > There are major flaws with all
                  > of these religions and the so-called
                  > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                  > all hearsay and the only thing
                  > that, supposedly, gives them
                  > validation is that these various
                  > people in history/myth that the
                  > scribes wrote about are claimed
                  > to have said or done some nice,
                  > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                  > things a very long time ago. Age/
                  > time (being ancient) seems to
                  > have given them credibility, because
                  > it is believed and taught that
                  > only Divine Intercession could
                  > have been the source for their
                  > Divine Inspiration.
                  >
                  > But, IMO, there are many people,
                  > today, who are not even followers
                  > of these dogmas that are as, or
                  > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                  > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                  > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                  > of these major and minor religions.
                  > Many of these people inspired
                  > others by never giving up in time
                  > of conflict because, sometimes,
                  > there weren't many other choices.
                  > Even those who did give up and
                  > had bad things befall them, still,
                  > maintained their faith and this
                  > fact turned them into "prophets"
                  > or saints. If this is the standard
                  > for religions there are an awful
                  > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                  > that just as deluded and desperate.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > iam999freedom" wrote:
                  > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                  > with unconditional love for the
                  > master and you get a submissive
                  > control pattern as your reward.
                  > Buyer beware!
                  >
                  > Prometheus, you wrote:
                  > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                  > an experiment to see if we
                  > are all capable of evolving
                  > into our "spiritual" potential.
                  > Are we to become more than
                  > merely a divine thought?
                  > Maybe there is something
                  > more to that piece of a mirror
                  > analogy."
                  >
                  > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                  > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                  > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                  > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                  > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                  >
                  > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                  > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                  >
                  > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                  > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                  > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                  > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                  > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                  > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                  > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                  >
                  > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                  > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                  > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                  > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                  > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                  > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                  > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                  >
                  > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                  > that it would ever be necessary.
                  >
                  > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                  >
                  > I AM
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello Non and All,
                  > > Thanks for the insightful
                  > > summary. I was exploring
                  > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                  > > charismatic Christian churches
                  > > and saw a reference to a
                  > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                  > >
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                  > >
                  > > This person is mentioned
                  > > not by Jesus but by one of
                  > > his apostles in order to inspire
                  > > Faith.
                  > >
                  > > Even when God seems to
                  > > turn his back and: causes
                  > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                  > > lost; cities attacked and
                  > > overrun by your enemies;
                  > > people brutalized, tortured
                  > > and killed, one is to have
                  > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                  > > reward for keeping this
                  > > faith. God's ego needs
                  > > you to believe in him
                  > > regardless of what pain
                  > > he allows to befall you.
                  > >
                  > > One needs to project
                  > > a sense of hope in order
                  > > to better endure life, as
                  > > it is, no matter how bad.
                  > >
                  > > And, it's easier to face these
                  > > challenges when you believe
                  > > that God is on your side and
                  > > not that of your oppressor.
                  > >
                  > > However, does God really
                  > > take sides? It seems that God
                  > > is/was created in man's image.
                  > >
                  > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                  > > an experiment to see if we
                  > > are all capable of evolving
                  > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                  > > Are we to become more than
                  > > merely a divine thought?
                  > > Maybe there is something
                  > > more to that piece of a mirror
                  > > analogy.
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                  > > has the belief that you (and your
                  > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                  > > deserved the punishments as
                  > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                  > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                  > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                  > > most religions see everyday
                  > > living and hardships as a test
                  > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                  > > to donate money to support
                  > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                  > > says and promises the same
                  > > or similar things in the imagined
                  > > hereafter.
                  > >
                  > > Plus, each religion has always
                  > > blamed the non-believers for
                  > > the sins that they suffer under
                  > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                  > > and Klemp is more like these
                  > > preachers than EKists could ever
                  > > admit.
                  > >
                  > > Well, got to go now....
                  > > I just had some thoughts
                  > > to share.
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > "Non" wrote:
                  > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                  > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                  > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                  > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                  > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                  > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                  > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                  > answers to ask the master etc.
                  > >
                  > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                  > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                  > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                  > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                  > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                  > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                  > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                  > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                  > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                  > >
                  > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                  > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                  > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                  > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                  > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                  > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                  > >
                  > > Non ;)
                  > >
                  > > prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello Janice,
                  > > Yes, one would think that
                  > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                  > > would, at least, attempt
                  > > to live up to his PR, but
                  > > that's not the case with
                  > > Klemp. Why put himself
                  > > out there by demonstrating
                  > > his powers? It's not like
                  > > he announced to the
                  > > whole world that he was....
                  > > oh wait, he did!
                  > >
                  > > That was a long time ago
                  > > and he never did make
                  > > any predictions as most
                  > > prophets do. Even Twit
                  > > made some predictions.
                  > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                  > > haven't noticed and don't
                  > > mine and that's why he
                  > > doesn't feel any pressure
                  > > to preform his responsibilities
                  > > as a real prophet.
                  > >
                  > > Instead, Harold is very
                  > > cautious of being too
                  > > direct and understood.
                  > > He'd rather have EKists
                  > > fill-in the blanks and
                  > > imagine what they want,
                  > > need and expect until
                  > > they go too far and have
                  > > to have a behaviour
                  > > adjustment by their RESA.
                  > > That's why Klemp usually
                  > > gives a very one dimensional
                  > > perspective when he tells
                  > > a story.
                  > >
                  > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                  > > why put too much
                  > > effort into it! And, he
                  > > figures that all he needs
                  > > to do is the KISS thing
                  > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                  > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                  > > will substitute Soul for
                  > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                  > >
                  > > It's really quite amazing
                  > > how simple Klemp's
                  > > redundant message is.
                  > > If EKists would just compare
                  > > Klemp's simple minded
                  > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                  > > leaders one would have
                  > > to wonder what they see
                  > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                  > > but they just laugh at his
                  > > quirkiness because he's
                  > > operating on so many
                  > > high planes of consciousness
                  > > simultaneously. LOL!
                  > >
                  > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                  > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                  > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                  > > isn't even in the same ball
                  > > park with the current Dali
                  > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                  > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                  > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                  > > religion while Eckankar
                  > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                  > > But, EKists need to compare
                  > > the two leaders and how
                  > > they present themselves
                  > > and what they have to say.
                  > >
                  > > Will ECKists make the
                  > > comparison? No, of course
                  > > not! They won't even allow
                  > > the door to be opened a
                  > > crack because some light
                  > > might get in and show
                  > > them the Truth. They can't
                  > > handle the Truth and
                  > > would rather remain ignorant.
                  > > It's much easier, besides,
                  > > what would they replace
                  > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                  > > responsibility to think for
                  > > oneself and exercise free
                  > > will. And, it would make
                  > > life too lonely to lose all
                  > > of those EK friends.
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                  > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                  > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                  > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                  > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                  > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                  > > charlatan to me.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The December 2012
                  > > Eckankar Mystic World
                  > > in the Ask the Master
                  > > section are two interesting
                  > > questions and answers.
                  > >
                  > > The first question has
                  > > to do with Stress and
                  > > how to overcome it.
                  > >
                  > > HK's answer is wishy-
                  > > washy at best. He says
                  > > that stress is "very
                  > > uncomfortable... Yet
                  > > stress is a good teacher."
                  > >
                  > > Klemp goes on to say
                  > > that people can increase
                  > > their tolerance to stress
                  > > by eating healthy, getting
                  > > enough sleep, and by
                  > > "Reducing our overuse
                  > > of electronic devices."
                  > >
                  > > In other words it seems
                  > > Klemp is saying, in a
                  > > roundabout way, to use
                  > > moderation. After all,
                  > > he's saying to reduce
                  > > "overuse."
                  > >
                  > > Then, again, how does
                  > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                  > > not use their computer
                  > > 8 hours a day?
                  > >
                  > > The next question involves
                  > > reincarnation. This guy's
                  > > wife gave birth to a baby
                  > > boy and two days later his
                  > > mother translated (died).
                  > > He indirectly asked if this
                  > > new baby was his mother.
                  > >
                  > > Instead of giving this EKist
                  > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                  > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                  > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                  > > When it comes to rebirth,
                  > > anything at all can happen...
                  > > Whichever Soul is now your
                  > > son, everything is in accord
                  > > with what is best for all around."
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  >
                • iam999freedom
                  Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning,
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                    Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

                    Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

                    I AM

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                    >
                    > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                    > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                    > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                    > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                    >
                    > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: prometheus_973
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                    > I'm not so sure that humans
                    > will ever become like, God,
                    > our imagined or possible
                    > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                    > not in any lifetime soon.
                    >
                    > But, it could be that the
                    > universe(s) just happened
                    > and that the remnants of
                    > other life forms were spread
                    > to this planet, and others,
                    > via space rubble... from
                    > destroyed civilizations
                    > and planets. Or, was it an
                    > intentional seeding by an
                    > advanced race... which was,
                    > itself, seeded by another
                    > advanced race etc.
                    >
                    > Maybe the "spiritual"
                    > experiences we have
                    > are the result of
                    > interaction with the
                    > quantum mechanical
                    > field?
                    >
                    > Anyway, it seems to me
                    > that what really matters
                    > are relationships. It's our
                    > relationships with others,
                    > even strangers, that matter
                    > most. This is how we really
                    > learn and grow. Loving
                    > relationships are valuable.
                    >
                    > Klemp, and others like
                    > him, are: liars; posers;
                    > have arrested development;
                    > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                    > and are even psychopathic.
                    > They are incapable of learning,
                    > or caring about others (are
                    > unloving) and attempt to
                    > impede social progress and
                    > justice. They use the rest of
                    > us for their own personal
                    > greed and selfish desires.
                    >
                    > Then, again, this strife and
                    > uncertainly (stress) that is
                    > created can make life interesting
                    > and a challenge, although,
                    > it can/will also be physically
                    > and emotionally painful.
                    >
                    > But, having a regular life
                    > without additional commitments
                    > and involvements can also
                    > offer rewarding experiences
                    > and insights. We are never
                    > all that alone. However, I'm
                    > not sure how peace of any
                    > sort (except in one's own mind)
                    > will ever happen in a world
                    > controlled by sociopaths.
                    >
                    > One must care about everyone
                    > and have caring relationships
                    > with people in order for humankind
                    > to advance and survive. To me,
                    > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                    > I almost included animals, too,
                    > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                    > include "caring" about them (all)
                    > too.
                    >
                    > How can one really "care" about
                    > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                    > except to keep them away from
                    > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                    > people.
                    >
                    > When one thinks about it the
                    > definition of what's "normal"
                    > keeps changing. The extroverts
                    > seem to be more pathological
                    > than the introverts don't you
                    > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                    > to force us introverts to become
                    > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                    > loves company I suppose or is
                    > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                    > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                    > is more intimidating.
                    >
                    > In any case the idea of a "God"
                    > to worship and viewed as being
                    > "involved" in our lives detracts
                    > from "us" being involved in our
                    > lives because of the differences
                    > we see in one another. This is
                    > why there are so many different
                    > religious dogmas of what's right
                    > and wrong.
                    >
                    > Therefore, the differences in the
                    > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                    > for me, shows that "God" does not
                    > exist. We don't want to be alone
                    > nor take responsibility for our own
                    > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                    > use God as our scape goat.
                    >
                    > There are major flaws with all
                    > of these religions and the so-called
                    > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                    > all hearsay and the only thing
                    > that, supposedly, gives them
                    > validation is that these various
                    > people in history/myth that the
                    > scribes wrote about are claimed
                    > to have said or done some nice,
                    > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                    > things a very long time ago. Age/
                    > time (being ancient) seems to
                    > have given them credibility, because
                    > it is believed and taught that
                    > only Divine Intercession could
                    > have been the source for their
                    > Divine Inspiration.
                    >
                    > But, IMO, there are many people,
                    > today, who are not even followers
                    > of these dogmas that are as, or
                    > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                    > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                    > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                    > of these major and minor religions.
                    > Many of these people inspired
                    > others by never giving up in time
                    > of conflict because, sometimes,
                    > there weren't many other choices.
                    > Even those who did give up and
                    > had bad things befall them, still,
                    > maintained their faith and this
                    > fact turned them into "prophets"
                    > or saints. If this is the standard
                    > for religions there are an awful
                    > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                    > that just as deluded and desperate.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > iam999freedom" wrote:
                    > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                    > with unconditional love for the
                    > master and you get a submissive
                    > control pattern as your reward.
                    > Buyer beware!
                    >
                    > Prometheus, you wrote:
                    > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                    > an experiment to see if we
                    > are all capable of evolving
                    > into our "spiritual" potential.
                    > Are we to become more than
                    > merely a divine thought?
                    > Maybe there is something
                    > more to that piece of a mirror
                    > analogy."
                    >
                    > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                    > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                    > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                    > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                    > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                    >
                    > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                    > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                    >
                    > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                    > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                    > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                    > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                    > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                    > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                    > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                    >
                    > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                    > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                    > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                    > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                    > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                    > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                    > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                    >
                    > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                    > that it would ever be necessary.
                    >
                    > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                    >
                    > I AM
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Non and All,
                    > > Thanks for the insightful
                    > > summary. I was exploring
                    > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                    > > charismatic Christian churches
                    > > and saw a reference to a
                    > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                    > >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                    > >
                    > > This person is mentioned
                    > > not by Jesus but by one of
                    > > his apostles in order to inspire
                    > > Faith.
                    > >
                    > > Even when God seems to
                    > > turn his back and: causes
                    > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                    > > lost; cities attacked and
                    > > overrun by your enemies;
                    > > people brutalized, tortured
                    > > and killed, one is to have
                    > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                    > > reward for keeping this
                    > > faith. God's ego needs
                    > > you to believe in him
                    > > regardless of what pain
                    > > he allows to befall you.
                    > >
                    > > One needs to project
                    > > a sense of hope in order
                    > > to better endure life, as
                    > > it is, no matter how bad.
                    > >
                    > > And, it's easier to face these
                    > > challenges when you believe
                    > > that God is on your side and
                    > > not that of your oppressor.
                    > >
                    > > However, does God really
                    > > take sides? It seems that God
                    > > is/was created in man's image.
                    > >
                    > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                    > > an experiment to see if we
                    > > are all capable of evolving
                    > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                    > > Are we to become more than
                    > > merely a divine thought?
                    > > Maybe there is something
                    > > more to that piece of a mirror
                    > > analogy.
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                    > > has the belief that you (and your
                    > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                    > > deserved the punishments as
                    > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                    > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                    > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                    > > most religions see everyday
                    > > living and hardships as a test
                    > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                    > > to donate money to support
                    > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                    > > says and promises the same
                    > > or similar things in the imagined
                    > > hereafter.
                    > >
                    > > Plus, each religion has always
                    > > blamed the non-believers for
                    > > the sins that they suffer under
                    > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                    > > and Klemp is more like these
                    > > preachers than EKists could ever
                    > > admit.
                    > >
                    > > Well, got to go now....
                    > > I just had some thoughts
                    > > to share.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > "Non" wrote:
                    > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                    > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                    > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                    > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                    > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                    > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                    > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                    > answers to ask the master etc.
                    > >
                    > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                    > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                    > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                    > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                    > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                    > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                    > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                    > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                    > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                    > >
                    > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                    > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                    > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                    > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                    > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                    > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                    > >
                    > > Non ;)
                    > >
                    > > prometheus wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Janice,
                    > > Yes, one would think that
                    > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                    > > would, at least, attempt
                    > > to live up to his PR, but
                    > > that's not the case with
                    > > Klemp. Why put himself
                    > > out there by demonstrating
                    > > his powers? It's not like
                    > > he announced to the
                    > > whole world that he was....
                    > > oh wait, he did!
                    > >
                    > > That was a long time ago
                    > > and he never did make
                    > > any predictions as most
                    > > prophets do. Even Twit
                    > > made some predictions.
                    > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                    > > haven't noticed and don't
                    > > mine and that's why he
                    > > doesn't feel any pressure
                    > > to preform his responsibilities
                    > > as a real prophet.
                    > >
                    > > Instead, Harold is very
                    > > cautious of being too
                    > > direct and understood.
                    > > He'd rather have EKists
                    > > fill-in the blanks and
                    > > imagine what they want,
                    > > need and expect until
                    > > they go too far and have
                    > > to have a behaviour
                    > > adjustment by their RESA.
                    > > That's why Klemp usually
                    > > gives a very one dimensional
                    > > perspective when he tells
                    > > a story.
                    > >
                    > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                    > > why put too much
                    > > effort into it! And, he
                    > > figures that all he needs
                    > > to do is the KISS thing
                    > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                    > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                    > > will substitute Soul for
                    > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                    > >
                    > > It's really quite amazing
                    > > how simple Klemp's
                    > > redundant message is.
                    > > If EKists would just compare
                    > > Klemp's simple minded
                    > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                    > > leaders one would have
                    > > to wonder what they see
                    > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                    > > but they just laugh at his
                    > > quirkiness because he's
                    > > operating on so many
                    > > high planes of consciousness
                    > > simultaneously. LOL!
                    > >
                    > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                    > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                    > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                    > > isn't even in the same ball
                    > > park with the current Dali
                    > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                    > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                    > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                    > > religion while Eckankar
                    > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                    > > But, EKists need to compare
                    > > the two leaders and how
                    > > they present themselves
                    > > and what they have to say.
                    > >
                    > > Will ECKists make the
                    > > comparison? No, of course
                    > > not! They won't even allow
                    > > the door to be opened a
                    > > crack because some light
                    > > might get in and show
                    > > them the Truth. They can't
                    > > handle the Truth and
                    > > would rather remain ignorant.
                    > > It's much easier, besides,
                    > > what would they replace
                    > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                    > > responsibility to think for
                    > > oneself and exercise free
                    > > will. And, it would make
                    > > life too lonely to lose all
                    > > of those EK friends.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                    > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                    > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                    > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                    > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                    > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                    > > charlatan to me.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The December 2012
                    > > Eckankar Mystic World
                    > > in the Ask the Master
                    > > section are two interesting
                    > > questions and answers.
                    > >
                    > > The first question has
                    > > to do with Stress and
                    > > how to overcome it.
                    > >
                    > > HK's answer is wishy-
                    > > washy at best. He says
                    > > that stress is "very
                    > > uncomfortable... Yet
                    > > stress is a good teacher."
                    > >
                    > > Klemp goes on to say
                    > > that people can increase
                    > > their tolerance to stress
                    > > by eating healthy, getting
                    > > enough sleep, and by
                    > > "Reducing our overuse
                    > > of electronic devices."
                    > >
                    > > In other words it seems
                    > > Klemp is saying, in a
                    > > roundabout way, to use
                    > > moderation. After all,
                    > > he's saying to reduce
                    > > "overuse."
                    > >
                    > > Then, again, how does
                    > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                    > > not use their computer
                    > > 8 hours a day?
                    > >
                    > > The next question involves
                    > > reincarnation. This guy's
                    > > wife gave birth to a baby
                    > > boy and two days later his
                    > > mother translated (died).
                    > > He indirectly asked if this
                    > > new baby was his mother.
                    > >
                    > > Instead of giving this EKist
                    > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                    > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                    > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                    > > When it comes to rebirth,
                    > > anything at all can happen...
                    > > Whichever Soul is now your
                    > > son, everything is in accord
                    > > with what is best for all around."
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Tuza8, Welcome to the site! Thanks for the info on, yet, another religious scammer/fraud. I m assuming that your questions are rhetorical. I found some
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
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                      Hello Tuza8,
                      Welcome to the site!
                      Thanks for the info
                      on, yet, another religious
                      scammer/fraud.

                      I'm assuming that your
                      questions are rhetorical.

                      I found some info on this
                      person and the following
                      video:

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I

                      Here's more info that that
                      I uncovered on Wikipedia:

                      [Note the info within the (*****)
                      It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                      Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]

                      Quan Yin Method

                      In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the 'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with which she is now associated.[10]


                      *****
                      Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]

                      Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best, easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                      *****


                      Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the

                      "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:

                      Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                      Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                      Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                      Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                      Refrain from the use of intoxicants.

                      [edit]Quan Yin Method in China

                      Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]

                      The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July 1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in 20 provinces and cities.[10]

                      In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies of "heretical texts."[10]

                      [edit]Criticism

                      [edit]Environmental violations
                      In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400 and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned to establish a park on the site.[33]

                      Yes, I read where she is
                      very popular in Taiwan
                      and that she has 20,000
                      followers world wide.

                      She's half Vietnamese
                      and Chinese and became
                      a disciple of Thakar Singh
                      and studied Surat Shabd
                      Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                      Light and Sound), but
                      was, later, initiated by
                      a Buddhist monk.

                      All those who follow
                      her are asked to become
                      Vegetarians and initiation
                      is free of charge. It doesn't
                      appear that there is a
                      Membership Donation/Fee
                      like with Ecklankar, but
                      she does make a lot of
                      money by selling books,
                      videos, etc. She also owns
                      Vegetarian and Vegan
                      Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                      has jewelry outlets, and
                      designs her own clothing
                      line.

                      Her name, Ching Hai,
                      means "pure ocean."

                      Google the "Quan Yin
                      Method" to find out
                      more about her daily
                      meditation of the inner
                      L & S.

                      She's been described as a:
                      "tireless publicity seeker;
                      The Immaterial Girl... Part
                      Buddha, Part Madonna;
                      The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                      ... merchandizing mystic
                      from Taiwan."

                      So, it seems that because
                      of her Buddhist connections
                      that she's associated with
                      the more familiar Buddhism,
                      however, she teaches the
                      less known (outside India)
                      Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                      ECKankar.

                      Funny, though, that her
                      religion/enterprise had
                      a later start than ECKankar
                      but is making more money
                      and bringing in more people.

                      Prometheus

                      "tuza8" wrote:

                      Hi prometheu,
                      I agree what you said,
                      they are some false master
                      in public.

                      recently one femala master,
                      her name is master ching hai,
                      master ching hai claim herself
                      is 8 billion plane initiation level,

                      do you believe it?

                      in 1985 she become master
                      and began taught mediatation
                      on light and sound, whom said
                      come from higher world into
                      this lower world ,

                      her also said come to this
                      lower world many times,
                      alway is a master for help
                      people.

                      do you believe?

                      prometheus_973" wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                      > > I'm not so sure that humans
                      > > will ever become like, God,
                      > > our imagined or possible
                      > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                      > > not in any lifetime soon.
                      > >
                      > > But, it could be that the
                      > > universe(s) just happened
                      > > and that the remnants of
                      > > other life forms were spread
                      > > to this planet, and others,
                      > > via space rubble... from
                      > > destroyed civilizations
                      > > and planets. Or, was it an
                      > > intentional seeding by an
                      > > advanced race... which was,
                      > > itself, seeded by another
                      > > advanced race etc.
                      > >
                      > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                      > > experiences we have
                      > > are the result of
                      > > interaction with the
                      > > quantum mechanical
                      > > field?
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, it seems to me
                      > > that what really matters
                      > > are relationships. It's our
                      > > relationships with others,
                      > > even strangers, that matter
                      > > most. This is how we really
                      > > learn and grow. Loving
                      > > relationships are valuable.
                      > >
                      > > Klemp, and others like
                      > > him, are: liars; posers;
                      > > have arrested development;
                      > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                      > > and are even psychopathic.
                      > > They are incapable of learning,
                      > > or caring about others (are
                      > > unloving) and attempt to
                      > > impede social progress and
                      > > justice. They use the rest of
                      > > us for their own personal
                      > > greed and selfish desires.
                      > >
                      > > Then, again, this strife and
                      > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                      > > created can make life interesting
                      > > and a challenge, although,
                      > > it can/will also be physically
                      > > and emotionally painful.
                      > >
                      > > But, having a regular life
                      > > without additional commitments
                      > > and involvements can also
                      > > offer rewarding experiences
                      > > and insights. We are never
                      > > all that alone. However, I'm
                      > > not sure how peace of any
                      > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                      > > will ever happen in a world
                      > > controlled by sociopaths.
                      > >
                      > > One must care about everyone
                      > > and have caring relationships
                      > > with people in order for humankind
                      > > to advance and survive. To me,
                      > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                      > > I almost included animals, too,
                      > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                      > > include "caring" about them (all)
                      > > too.
                      > >
                      > > How can one really "care" about
                      > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                      > > except to keep them away from
                      > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                      > > people.
                      > >
                      > > When one thinks about it the
                      > > definition of what's "normal"
                      > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                      > > seem to be more pathological
                      > > than the introverts don't you
                      > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                      > > to force us introverts to become
                      > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                      > > loves company I suppose or is
                      > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                      > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                      > > is more intimidating.
                      > >
                      > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                      > > to worship and viewed as being
                      > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                      > > from "us" being involved in our
                      > > lives because of the differences
                      > > we see in one another. This is
                      > > why there are so many different
                      > > religious dogmas of what's right
                      > > and wrong.
                      > >
                      > > Therefore, the differences in the
                      > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                      > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                      > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                      > > nor take responsibility for our own
                      > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                      > > use God as our scape goat.
                      > >
                      > > There are major flaws with all
                      > > of these religions and the so-called
                      > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                      > > all hearsay and the only thing
                      > > that, supposedly, gives them
                      > > validation is that these various
                      > > people in history/myth that the
                      > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                      > > to have said or done some nice,
                      > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                      > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                      > > time (being ancient) seems to
                      > > have given them credibility, because
                      > > it is believed and taught that
                      > > only Divine Intercession could
                      > > have been the source for their
                      > > Divine Inspiration.
                      > >
                      > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                      > > today, who are not even followers
                      > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                      > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                      > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                      > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                      > > of these major and minor religions.
                      > > Many of these people inspired
                      > > others by never giving up in time
                      > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                      > > there weren't many other choices.
                      > > Even those who did give up and
                      > > had bad things befall them, still,
                      > > maintained their faith and this
                      > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                      > > or saints. If this is the standard
                      > > for religions there are an awful
                      > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                      > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                      > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                      > > with unconditional love for the
                      > > master and you get a submissive
                      > > control pattern as your reward.
                      > > Buyer beware!
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                      > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                      > > an experiment to see if we
                      > > are all capable of evolving
                      > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                      > > Are we to become more than
                      > > merely a divine thought?
                      > > Maybe there is something
                      > > more to that piece of a mirror
                      > > analogy."
                      > >
                      > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                      > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                      > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                      > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                      > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                      > >
                      > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                      > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                      > >
                      > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                      > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                      > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                      > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                      > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                      > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                      > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                      > >
                      > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                      > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                      > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                      > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                      > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                      > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                      > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                      > >
                      > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                      > > that it would ever be necessary.
                      > >
                      > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                      > >
                      > > I AM
                      > >
                      > > prometheus wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hello Non and All,
                      > > > Thanks for the insightful
                      > > > summary. I was exploring
                      > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                      > > > charismatic Christian churches
                      > > > and saw a reference to a
                      > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                      > > >
                      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                      > > >
                      > > > This person is mentioned
                      > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                      > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                      > > > Faith.
                      > > >
                      > > > Even when God seems to
                      > > > turn his back and: causes
                      > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                      > > > lost; cities attacked and
                      > > > overrun by your enemies;
                      > > > people brutalized, tortured
                      > > > and killed, one is to have
                      > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                      > > > reward for keeping this
                      > > > faith. God's ego needs
                      > > > you to believe in him
                      > > > regardless of what pain
                      > > > he allows to befall you.
                      > > >
                      > > > One needs to project
                      > > > a sense of hope in order
                      > > > to better endure life, as
                      > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                      > > >
                      > > > And, it's easier to face these
                      > > > challenges when you believe
                      > > > that God is on your side and
                      > > > not that of your oppressor.
                      > > >
                      > > > However, does God really
                      > > > take sides? It seems that God
                      > > > is/was created in man's image.
                      > > >
                      > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                      > > > an experiment to see if we
                      > > > are all capable of evolving
                      > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                      > > > Are we to become more than
                      > > > merely a divine thought?
                      > > > Maybe there is something
                      > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                      > > > analogy.
                      > > >
                      > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                      > > > has the belief that you (and your
                      > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                      > > > deserved the punishments as
                      > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                      > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                      > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                      > > > most religions see everyday
                      > > > living and hardships as a test
                      > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                      > > > to donate money to support
                      > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                      > > > says and promises the same
                      > > > or similar things in the imagined
                      > > > hereafter.
                      > > >
                      > > > Plus, each religion has always
                      > > > blamed the non-believers for
                      > > > the sins that they suffer under
                      > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                      > > > and Klemp is more like these
                      > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                      > > > admit.
                      > > >
                      > > > Well, got to go now....
                      > > > I just had some thoughts
                      > > > to share.
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
                      > > >
                      > > "Non" wrote:
                      > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                      > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                      > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                      > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                      > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                      > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                      > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                      > > answers to ask the master etc.
                      > > >
                      > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                      > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                      > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                      > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                      > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                      > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                      > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                      > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                      > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                      > > >
                      > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                      > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                      > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                      > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                      > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                      > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                      > > >
                      > > > Non ;)
                      > > >
                      > > > prometheus wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hello Janice,
                      > > > Yes, one would think that
                      > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                      > > > would, at least, attempt
                      > > > to live up to his PR, but
                      > > > that's not the case with
                      > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                      > > > out there by demonstrating
                      > > > his powers? It's not like
                      > > > he announced to the
                      > > > whole world that he was....
                      > > > oh wait, he did!
                      > > >
                      > > > That was a long time ago
                      > > > and he never did make
                      > > > any predictions as most
                      > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                      > > > made some predictions.
                      > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                      > > > haven't noticed and don't
                      > > > mine and that's why he
                      > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                      > > > to preform his responsibilities
                      > > > as a real prophet.
                      > > >
                      > > > Instead, Harold is very
                      > > > cautious of being too
                      > > > direct and understood.
                      > > > He'd rather have EKists
                      > > > fill-in the blanks and
                      > > > imagine what they want,
                      > > > need and expect until
                      > > > they go too far and have
                      > > > to have a behaviour
                      > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                      > > > That's why Klemp usually
                      > > > gives a very one dimensional
                      > > > perspective when he tells
                      > > > a story.
                      > > >
                      > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                      > > > why put too much
                      > > > effort into it! And, he
                      > > > figures that all he needs
                      > > > to do is the KISS thing
                      > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                      > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                      > > > will substitute Soul for
                      > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                      > > >
                      > > > It's really quite amazing
                      > > > how simple Klemp's
                      > > > redundant message is.
                      > > > If EKists would just compare
                      > > > Klemp's simple minded
                      > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                      > > > leaders one would have
                      > > > to wonder what they see
                      > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                      > > > but they just laugh at his
                      > > > quirkiness because he's
                      > > > operating on so many
                      > > > high planes of consciousness
                      > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                      > > >
                      > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                      > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                      > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                      > > > isn't even in the same ball
                      > > > park with the current Dali
                      > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                      > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                      > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                      > > > religion while Eckankar
                      > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                      > > > But, EKists need to compare
                      > > > the two leaders and how
                      > > > they present themselves
                      > > > and what they have to say.
                      > > >
                      > > > Will ECKists make the
                      > > > comparison? No, of course
                      > > > not! They won't even allow
                      > > > the door to be opened a
                      > > > crack because some light
                      > > > might get in and show
                      > > > them the Truth. They can't
                      > > > handle the Truth and
                      > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                      > > > It's much easier, besides,
                      > > > what would they replace
                      > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                      > > > responsibility to think for
                      > > > oneself and exercise free
                      > > > will. And, it would make
                      > > > life too lonely to lose all
                      > > > of those EK friends.
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                      > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                      > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                      > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                      > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                      > > > charlatan to me.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > The December 2012
                      > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                      > > > in the Ask the Master
                      > > > section are two interesting
                      > > > questions and answers.
                      > > >
                      > > > The first question has
                      > > > to do with Stress and
                      > > > how to overcome it.
                      > > >
                      > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                      > > > washy at best. He says
                      > > > that stress is "very
                      > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                      > > > stress is a good teacher."
                      > > >
                      > > > Klemp goes on to say
                      > > > that people can increase
                      > > > their tolerance to stress
                      > > > by eating healthy, getting
                      > > > enough sleep, and by
                      > > > "Reducing our overuse
                      > > > of electronic devices."
                      > > >
                      > > > In other words it seems
                      > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                      > > > roundabout way, to use
                      > > > moderation. After all,
                      > > > he's saying to reduce
                      > > > "overuse."
                      > > >
                      > > > Then, again, how does
                      > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                      > > > not use their computer
                      > > > 8 hours a day?
                      > > >
                      > > > The next question involves
                      > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                      > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                      > > > boy and two days later his
                      > > > mother translated (died).
                      > > > He indirectly asked if this
                      > > > new baby was his mother.
                      > > >
                      > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                      > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                      > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                      > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                      > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                      > > > anything at all can happen...
                      > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                      > > > son, everything is in accord
                      > > > with what is best for all around."
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      >
                    • iam999freedom
                      I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle. In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are naturally more happy.

                        If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

                        I AM.......HAPPY LOL

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                        >
                        > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                        >
                        > I AM
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                        > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                        > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                        > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                        > >
                        > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > From: prometheus_973
                        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                        > > I'm not so sure that humans
                        > > will ever become like, God,
                        > > our imagined or possible
                        > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                        > > not in any lifetime soon.
                        > >
                        > > But, it could be that the
                        > > universe(s) just happened
                        > > and that the remnants of
                        > > other life forms were spread
                        > > to this planet, and others,
                        > > via space rubble... from
                        > > destroyed civilizations
                        > > and planets. Or, was it an
                        > > intentional seeding by an
                        > > advanced race... which was,
                        > > itself, seeded by another
                        > > advanced race etc.
                        > >
                        > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                        > > experiences we have
                        > > are the result of
                        > > interaction with the
                        > > quantum mechanical
                        > > field?
                        > >
                        > > Anyway, it seems to me
                        > > that what really matters
                        > > are relationships. It's our
                        > > relationships with others,
                        > > even strangers, that matter
                        > > most. This is how we really
                        > > learn and grow. Loving
                        > > relationships are valuable.
                        > >
                        > > Klemp, and others like
                        > > him, are: liars; posers;
                        > > have arrested development;
                        > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                        > > and are even psychopathic.
                        > > They are incapable of learning,
                        > > or caring about others (are
                        > > unloving) and attempt to
                        > > impede social progress and
                        > > justice. They use the rest of
                        > > us for their own personal
                        > > greed and selfish desires.
                        > >
                        > > Then, again, this strife and
                        > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                        > > created can make life interesting
                        > > and a challenge, although,
                        > > it can/will also be physically
                        > > and emotionally painful.
                        > >
                        > > But, having a regular life
                        > > without additional commitments
                        > > and involvements can also
                        > > offer rewarding experiences
                        > > and insights. We are never
                        > > all that alone. However, I'm
                        > > not sure how peace of any
                        > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                        > > will ever happen in a world
                        > > controlled by sociopaths.
                        > >
                        > > One must care about everyone
                        > > and have caring relationships
                        > > with people in order for humankind
                        > > to advance and survive. To me,
                        > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                        > > I almost included animals, too,
                        > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                        > > include "caring" about them (all)
                        > > too.
                        > >
                        > > How can one really "care" about
                        > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                        > > except to keep them away from
                        > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                        > > people.
                        > >
                        > > When one thinks about it the
                        > > definition of what's "normal"
                        > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                        > > seem to be more pathological
                        > > than the introverts don't you
                        > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                        > > to force us introverts to become
                        > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                        > > loves company I suppose or is
                        > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                        > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                        > > is more intimidating.
                        > >
                        > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                        > > to worship and viewed as being
                        > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                        > > from "us" being involved in our
                        > > lives because of the differences
                        > > we see in one another. This is
                        > > why there are so many different
                        > > religious dogmas of what's right
                        > > and wrong.
                        > >
                        > > Therefore, the differences in the
                        > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                        > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                        > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                        > > nor take responsibility for our own
                        > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                        > > use God as our scape goat.
                        > >
                        > > There are major flaws with all
                        > > of these religions and the so-called
                        > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                        > > all hearsay and the only thing
                        > > that, supposedly, gives them
                        > > validation is that these various
                        > > people in history/myth that the
                        > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                        > > to have said or done some nice,
                        > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                        > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                        > > time (being ancient) seems to
                        > > have given them credibility, because
                        > > it is believed and taught that
                        > > only Divine Intercession could
                        > > have been the source for their
                        > > Divine Inspiration.
                        > >
                        > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                        > > today, who are not even followers
                        > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                        > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                        > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                        > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                        > > of these major and minor religions.
                        > > Many of these people inspired
                        > > others by never giving up in time
                        > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                        > > there weren't many other choices.
                        > > Even those who did give up and
                        > > had bad things befall them, still,
                        > > maintained their faith and this
                        > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                        > > or saints. If this is the standard
                        > > for religions there are an awful
                        > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                        > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                        > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                        > > with unconditional love for the
                        > > master and you get a submissive
                        > > control pattern as your reward.
                        > > Buyer beware!
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                        > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                        > > an experiment to see if we
                        > > are all capable of evolving
                        > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                        > > Are we to become more than
                        > > merely a divine thought?
                        > > Maybe there is something
                        > > more to that piece of a mirror
                        > > analogy."
                        > >
                        > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                        > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                        > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                        > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                        > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                        > >
                        > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                        > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                        > >
                        > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                        > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                        > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                        > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                        > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                        > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                        > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                        > >
                        > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                        > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                        > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                        > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                        > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                        > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                        > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                        > >
                        > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                        > > that it would ever be necessary.
                        > >
                        > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                        > >
                        > > I AM
                        > >
                        > > prometheus wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello Non and All,
                        > > > Thanks for the insightful
                        > > > summary. I was exploring
                        > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                        > > > charismatic Christian churches
                        > > > and saw a reference to a
                        > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                        > > >
                        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                        > > >
                        > > > This person is mentioned
                        > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                        > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                        > > > Faith.
                        > > >
                        > > > Even when God seems to
                        > > > turn his back and: causes
                        > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                        > > > lost; cities attacked and
                        > > > overrun by your enemies;
                        > > > people brutalized, tortured
                        > > > and killed, one is to have
                        > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                        > > > reward for keeping this
                        > > > faith. God's ego needs
                        > > > you to believe in him
                        > > > regardless of what pain
                        > > > he allows to befall you.
                        > > >
                        > > > One needs to project
                        > > > a sense of hope in order
                        > > > to better endure life, as
                        > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                        > > >
                        > > > And, it's easier to face these
                        > > > challenges when you believe
                        > > > that God is on your side and
                        > > > not that of your oppressor.
                        > > >
                        > > > However, does God really
                        > > > take sides? It seems that God
                        > > > is/was created in man's image.
                        > > >
                        > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                        > > > an experiment to see if we
                        > > > are all capable of evolving
                        > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                        > > > Are we to become more than
                        > > > merely a divine thought?
                        > > > Maybe there is something
                        > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                        > > > analogy.
                        > > >
                        > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                        > > > has the belief that you (and your
                        > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                        > > > deserved the punishments as
                        > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                        > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                        > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                        > > > most religions see everyday
                        > > > living and hardships as a test
                        > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                        > > > to donate money to support
                        > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                        > > > says and promises the same
                        > > > or similar things in the imagined
                        > > > hereafter.
                        > > >
                        > > > Plus, each religion has always
                        > > > blamed the non-believers for
                        > > > the sins that they suffer under
                        > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                        > > > and Klemp is more like these
                        > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                        > > > admit.
                        > > >
                        > > > Well, got to go now....
                        > > > I just had some thoughts
                        > > > to share.
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > > >
                        > > "Non" wrote:
                        > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                        > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                        > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                        > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                        > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                        > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                        > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                        > > answers to ask the master etc.
                        > > >
                        > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                        > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                        > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                        > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                        > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                        > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                        > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                        > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                        > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                        > > >
                        > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                        > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                        > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                        > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                        > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                        > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                        > > >
                        > > > Non ;)
                        > > >
                        > > > prometheus wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello Janice,
                        > > > Yes, one would think that
                        > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                        > > > would, at least, attempt
                        > > > to live up to his PR, but
                        > > > that's not the case with
                        > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                        > > > out there by demonstrating
                        > > > his powers? It's not like
                        > > > he announced to the
                        > > > whole world that he was....
                        > > > oh wait, he did!
                        > > >
                        > > > That was a long time ago
                        > > > and he never did make
                        > > > any predictions as most
                        > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                        > > > made some predictions.
                        > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                        > > > haven't noticed and don't
                        > > > mine and that's why he
                        > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                        > > > to preform his responsibilities
                        > > > as a real prophet.
                        > > >
                        > > > Instead, Harold is very
                        > > > cautious of being too
                        > > > direct and understood.
                        > > > He'd rather have EKists
                        > > > fill-in the blanks and
                        > > > imagine what they want,
                        > > > need and expect until
                        > > > they go too far and have
                        > > > to have a behaviour
                        > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                        > > > That's why Klemp usually
                        > > > gives a very one dimensional
                        > > > perspective when he tells
                        > > > a story.
                        > > >
                        > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                        > > > why put too much
                        > > > effort into it! And, he
                        > > > figures that all he needs
                        > > > to do is the KISS thing
                        > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                        > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                        > > > will substitute Soul for
                        > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                        > > >
                        > > > It's really quite amazing
                        > > > how simple Klemp's
                        > > > redundant message is.
                        > > > If EKists would just compare
                        > > > Klemp's simple minded
                        > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                        > > > leaders one would have
                        > > > to wonder what they see
                        > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                        > > > but they just laugh at his
                        > > > quirkiness because he's
                        > > > operating on so many
                        > > > high planes of consciousness
                        > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                        > > >
                        > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                        > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                        > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                        > > > isn't even in the same ball
                        > > > park with the current Dali
                        > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                        > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                        > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                        > > > religion while Eckankar
                        > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                        > > > But, EKists need to compare
                        > > > the two leaders and how
                        > > > they present themselves
                        > > > and what they have to say.
                        > > >
                        > > > Will ECKists make the
                        > > > comparison? No, of course
                        > > > not! They won't even allow
                        > > > the door to be opened a
                        > > > crack because some light
                        > > > might get in and show
                        > > > them the Truth. They can't
                        > > > handle the Truth and
                        > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                        > > > It's much easier, besides,
                        > > > what would they replace
                        > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                        > > > responsibility to think for
                        > > > oneself and exercise free
                        > > > will. And, it would make
                        > > > life too lonely to lose all
                        > > > of those EK friends.
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                        > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                        > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                        > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                        > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                        > > > charlatan to me.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > The December 2012
                        > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                        > > > in the Ask the Master
                        > > > section are two interesting
                        > > > questions and answers.
                        > > >
                        > > > The first question has
                        > > > to do with Stress and
                        > > > how to overcome it.
                        > > >
                        > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                        > > > washy at best. He says
                        > > > that stress is "very
                        > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                        > > > stress is a good teacher."
                        > > >
                        > > > Klemp goes on to say
                        > > > that people can increase
                        > > > their tolerance to stress
                        > > > by eating healthy, getting
                        > > > enough sleep, and by
                        > > > "Reducing our overuse
                        > > > of electronic devices."
                        > > >
                        > > > In other words it seems
                        > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                        > > > roundabout way, to use
                        > > > moderation. After all,
                        > > > he's saying to reduce
                        > > > "overuse."
                        > > >
                        > > > Then, again, how does
                        > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                        > > > not use their computer
                        > > > 8 hours a day?
                        > > >
                        > > > The next question involves
                        > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                        > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                        > > > boy and two days later his
                        > > > mother translated (died).
                        > > > He indirectly asked if this
                        > > > new baby was his mother.
                        > > >
                        > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                        > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                        > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                        > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                        > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                        > > > anything at all can happen...
                        > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                        > > > son, everything is in accord
                        > > > with what is best for all around."
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        >
                      • tuza8
                        Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said she is 8 trillion
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
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                          Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said
                          she is 8 trillion initiate right now ,I dont believe. ,because from 1986 untill now just 27 years ,how can her achieve such level?is it possible once achieve that level in a short time?27 year?you are a master,so ,you know the answer. is it possible?pls tell me.
                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Tuza8,
                          > Welcome to the site!
                          > Thanks for the info
                          > on, yet, another religious
                          > scammer/fraud.
                          >
                          > I'm assuming that your
                          > questions are rhetorical.
                          >
                          > I found some info on this
                          > person and the following
                          > video:
                          >
                          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
                          >
                          > Here's more info that that
                          > I uncovered on Wikipedia:
                          >
                          > [Note the info within the (*****)
                          > It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                          > Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
                          >
                          > Quan Yin Method
                          >
                          > In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the 'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with which she is now associated.[10]
                          >
                          >
                          > *****
                          > Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
                          >
                          > Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best, easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                          > *****
                          >
                          >
                          > Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
                          >
                          > "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
                          >
                          > Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                          > Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                          > Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                          > Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                          > Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
                          >
                          > [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
                          >
                          > Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
                          >
                          > The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July 1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in 20 provinces and cities.[10]
                          >
                          > In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies of "heretical texts."[10]
                          >
                          > [edit]Criticism
                          >
                          > [edit]Environmental violations
                          > In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400 and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned to establish a park on the site.[33]
                          >
                          > Yes, I read where she is
                          > very popular in Taiwan
                          > and that she has 20,000
                          > followers world wide.
                          >
                          > She's half Vietnamese
                          > and Chinese and became
                          > a disciple of Thakar Singh
                          > and studied Surat Shabd
                          > Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                          > Light and Sound), but
                          > was, later, initiated by
                          > a Buddhist monk.
                          >
                          > All those who follow
                          > her are asked to become
                          > Vegetarians and initiation
                          > is free of charge. It doesn't
                          > appear that there is a
                          > Membership Donation/Fee
                          > like with Ecklankar, but
                          > she does make a lot of
                          > money by selling books,
                          > videos, etc. She also owns
                          > Vegetarian and Vegan
                          > Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                          > has jewelry outlets, and
                          > designs her own clothing
                          > line.
                          >
                          > Her name, Ching Hai,
                          > means "pure ocean."
                          >
                          > Google the "Quan Yin
                          > Method" to find out
                          > more about her daily
                          > meditation of the inner
                          > L & S.
                          >
                          > She's been described as a:
                          > "tireless publicity seeker;
                          > The Immaterial Girl... Part
                          > Buddha, Part Madonna;
                          > The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                          > ... merchandizing mystic
                          > from Taiwan."
                          >
                          > So, it seems that because
                          > of her Buddhist connections
                          > that she's associated with
                          > the more familiar Buddhism,
                          > however, she teaches the
                          > less known (outside India)
                          > Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                          > ECKankar.
                          >
                          > Funny, though, that her
                          > religion/enterprise had
                          > a later start than ECKankar
                          > but is making more money
                          > and bringing in more people.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > "tuza8" wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi prometheu,
                          > I agree what you said,
                          > they are some false master
                          > in public.
                          >
                          > recently one femala master,
                          > her name is master ching hai,
                          > master ching hai claim herself
                          > is 8 billion plane initiation level,
                          >
                          > do you believe it?
                          >
                          > in 1985 she become master
                          > and began taught mediatation
                          > on light and sound, whom said
                          > come from higher world into
                          > this lower world ,
                          >
                          > her also said come to this
                          > lower world many times,
                          > alway is a master for help
                          > people.
                          >
                          > do you believe?
                          >
                          > prometheus_973" wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                          > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                          > > > will ever become like, God,
                          > > > our imagined or possible
                          > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                          > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                          > > >
                          > > > But, it could be that the
                          > > > universe(s) just happened
                          > > > and that the remnants of
                          > > > other life forms were spread
                          > > > to this planet, and others,
                          > > > via space rubble... from
                          > > > destroyed civilizations
                          > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                          > > > intentional seeding by an
                          > > > advanced race... which was,
                          > > > itself, seeded by another
                          > > > advanced race etc.
                          > > >
                          > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                          > > > experiences we have
                          > > > are the result of
                          > > > interaction with the
                          > > > quantum mechanical
                          > > > field?
                          > > >
                          > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                          > > > that what really matters
                          > > > are relationships. It's our
                          > > > relationships with others,
                          > > > even strangers, that matter
                          > > > most. This is how we really
                          > > > learn and grow. Loving
                          > > > relationships are valuable.
                          > > >
                          > > > Klemp, and others like
                          > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                          > > > have arrested development;
                          > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                          > > > and are even psychopathic.
                          > > > They are incapable of learning,
                          > > > or caring about others (are
                          > > > unloving) and attempt to
                          > > > impede social progress and
                          > > > justice. They use the rest of
                          > > > us for their own personal
                          > > > greed and selfish desires.
                          > > >
                          > > > Then, again, this strife and
                          > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                          > > > created can make life interesting
                          > > > and a challenge, although,
                          > > > it can/will also be physically
                          > > > and emotionally painful.
                          > > >
                          > > > But, having a regular life
                          > > > without additional commitments
                          > > > and involvements can also
                          > > > offer rewarding experiences
                          > > > and insights. We are never
                          > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                          > > > not sure how peace of any
                          > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                          > > > will ever happen in a world
                          > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                          > > >
                          > > > One must care about everyone
                          > > > and have caring relationships
                          > > > with people in order for humankind
                          > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                          > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                          > > > I almost included animals, too,
                          > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                          > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                          > > > too.
                          > > >
                          > > > How can one really "care" about
                          > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                          > > > except to keep them away from
                          > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                          > > > people.
                          > > >
                          > > > When one thinks about it the
                          > > > definition of what's "normal"
                          > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                          > > > seem to be more pathological
                          > > > than the introverts don't you
                          > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                          > > > to force us introverts to become
                          > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                          > > > loves company I suppose or is
                          > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                          > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                          > > > is more intimidating.
                          > > >
                          > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                          > > > to worship and viewed as being
                          > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                          > > > from "us" being involved in our
                          > > > lives because of the differences
                          > > > we see in one another. This is
                          > > > why there are so many different
                          > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                          > > > and wrong.
                          > > >
                          > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                          > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                          > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                          > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                          > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                          > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                          > > > use God as our scape goat.
                          > > >
                          > > > There are major flaws with all
                          > > > of these religions and the so-called
                          > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                          > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                          > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                          > > > validation is that these various
                          > > > people in history/myth that the
                          > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                          > > > to have said or done some nice,
                          > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                          > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                          > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                          > > > have given them credibility, because
                          > > > it is believed and taught that
                          > > > only Divine Intercession could
                          > > > have been the source for their
                          > > > Divine Inspiration.
                          > > >
                          > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                          > > > today, who are not even followers
                          > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                          > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                          > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                          > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                          > > > of these major and minor religions.
                          > > > Many of these people inspired
                          > > > others by never giving up in time
                          > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                          > > > there weren't many other choices.
                          > > > Even those who did give up and
                          > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                          > > > maintained their faith and this
                          > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                          > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                          > > > for religions there are an awful
                          > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                          > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                          > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                          > > > with unconditional love for the
                          > > > master and you get a submissive
                          > > > control pattern as your reward.
                          > > > Buyer beware!
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                          > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                          > > > an experiment to see if we
                          > > > are all capable of evolving
                          > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                          > > > Are we to become more than
                          > > > merely a divine thought?
                          > > > Maybe there is something
                          > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                          > > > analogy."
                          > > >
                          > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                          > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                          > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                          > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                          > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                          > > >
                          > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                          > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                          > > >
                          > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                          > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                          > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                          > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                          > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                          > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                          > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                          > > >
                          > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                          > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                          > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                          > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                          > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                          > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                          > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                          > > >
                          > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                          > > > that it would ever be necessary.
                          > > >
                          > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                          > > >
                          > > > I AM
                          > > >
                          > > > prometheus wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hello Non and All,
                          > > > > Thanks for the insightful
                          > > > > summary. I was exploring
                          > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                          > > > > charismatic Christian churches
                          > > > > and saw a reference to a
                          > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                          > > > >
                          > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                          > > > >
                          > > > > This person is mentioned
                          > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                          > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                          > > > > Faith.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Even when God seems to
                          > > > > turn his back and: causes
                          > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                          > > > > lost; cities attacked and
                          > > > > overrun by your enemies;
                          > > > > people brutalized, tortured
                          > > > > and killed, one is to have
                          > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                          > > > > reward for keeping this
                          > > > > faith. God's ego needs
                          > > > > you to believe in him
                          > > > > regardless of what pain
                          > > > > he allows to befall you.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > One needs to project
                          > > > > a sense of hope in order
                          > > > > to better endure life, as
                          > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > And, it's easier to face these
                          > > > > challenges when you believe
                          > > > > that God is on your side and
                          > > > > not that of your oppressor.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > However, does God really
                          > > > > take sides? It seems that God
                          > > > > is/was created in man's image.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                          > > > > an experiment to see if we
                          > > > > are all capable of evolving
                          > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                          > > > > Are we to become more than
                          > > > > merely a divine thought?
                          > > > > Maybe there is something
                          > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                          > > > > analogy.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                          > > > > has the belief that you (and your
                          > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                          > > > > deserved the punishments as
                          > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                          > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                          > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                          > > > > most religions see everyday
                          > > > > living and hardships as a test
                          > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                          > > > > to donate money to support
                          > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                          > > > > says and promises the same
                          > > > > or similar things in the imagined
                          > > > > hereafter.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Plus, each religion has always
                          > > > > blamed the non-believers for
                          > > > > the sins that they suffer under
                          > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                          > > > > and Klemp is more like these
                          > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                          > > > > admit.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Well, got to go now....
                          > > > > I just had some thoughts
                          > > > > to share.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Prometheus
                          > > > >
                          > > > "Non" wrote:
                          > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                          > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                          > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                          > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                          > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                          > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                          > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                          > > > answers to ask the master etc.
                          > > > >
                          > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                          > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                          > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                          > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                          > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                          > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                          > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                          > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                          > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                          > > > >
                          > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                          > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                          > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                          > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                          > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                          > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Non ;)
                          > > > >
                          > > > > prometheus wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hello Janice,
                          > > > > Yes, one would think that
                          > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                          > > > > would, at least, attempt
                          > > > > to live up to his PR, but
                          > > > > that's not the case with
                          > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                          > > > > out there by demonstrating
                          > > > > his powers? It's not like
                          > > > > he announced to the
                          > > > > whole world that he was....
                          > > > > oh wait, he did!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > That was a long time ago
                          > > > > and he never did make
                          > > > > any predictions as most
                          > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                          > > > > made some predictions.
                          > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                          > > > > haven't noticed and don't
                          > > > > mine and that's why he
                          > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                          > > > > to preform his responsibilities
                          > > > > as a real prophet.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Instead, Harold is very
                          > > > > cautious of being too
                          > > > > direct and understood.
                          > > > > He'd rather have EKists
                          > > > > fill-in the blanks and
                          > > > > imagine what they want,
                          > > > > need and expect until
                          > > > > they go too far and have
                          > > > > to have a behaviour
                          > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                          > > > > That's why Klemp usually
                          > > > > gives a very one dimensional
                          > > > > perspective when he tells
                          > > > > a story.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                          > > > > why put too much
                          > > > > effort into it! And, he
                          > > > > figures that all he needs
                          > > > > to do is the KISS thing
                          > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                          > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                          > > > > will substitute Soul for
                          > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It's really quite amazing
                          > > > > how simple Klemp's
                          > > > > redundant message is.
                          > > > > If EKists would just compare
                          > > > > Klemp's simple minded
                          > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                          > > > > leaders one would have
                          > > > > to wonder what they see
                          > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                          > > > > but they just laugh at his
                          > > > > quirkiness because he's
                          > > > > operating on so many
                          > > > > high planes of consciousness
                          > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                          > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                          > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                          > > > > isn't even in the same ball
                          > > > > park with the current Dali
                          > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                          > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                          > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                          > > > > religion while Eckankar
                          > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                          > > > > But, EKists need to compare
                          > > > > the two leaders and how
                          > > > > they present themselves
                          > > > > and what they have to say.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Will ECKists make the
                          > > > > comparison? No, of course
                          > > > > not! They won't even allow
                          > > > > the door to be opened a
                          > > > > crack because some light
                          > > > > might get in and show
                          > > > > them the Truth. They can't
                          > > > > handle the Truth and
                          > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                          > > > > It's much easier, besides,
                          > > > > what would they replace
                          > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                          > > > > responsibility to think for
                          > > > > oneself and exercise free
                          > > > > will. And, it would make
                          > > > > life too lonely to lose all
                          > > > > of those EK friends.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Prometheus
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                          > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                          > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                          > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                          > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                          > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                          > > > > charlatan to me.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Prometheus wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The December 2012
                          > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                          > > > > in the Ask the Master
                          > > > > section are two interesting
                          > > > > questions and answers.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The first question has
                          > > > > to do with Stress and
                          > > > > how to overcome it.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                          > > > > washy at best. He says
                          > > > > that stress is "very
                          > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                          > > > > stress is a good teacher."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Klemp goes on to say
                          > > > > that people can increase
                          > > > > their tolerance to stress
                          > > > > by eating healthy, getting
                          > > > > enough sleep, and by
                          > > > > "Reducing our overuse
                          > > > > of electronic devices."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > In other words it seems
                          > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                          > > > > roundabout way, to use
                          > > > > moderation. After all,
                          > > > > he's saying to reduce
                          > > > > "overuse."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Then, again, how does
                          > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                          > > > > not use their computer
                          > > > > 8 hours a day?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The next question involves
                          > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                          > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                          > > > > boy and two days later his
                          > > > > mother translated (died).
                          > > > > He indirectly asked if this
                          > > > > new baby was his mother.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                          > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                          > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                          > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                          > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                          > > > > anything at all can happen...
                          > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                          > > > > son, everything is in accord
                          > > > > with what is best for all around."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Prometheus
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello I AM, Janice and All, I read something where a teacher asked a child what she wanted to be when she grew up and she said Happy! Of course, that was the
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                            Hello I AM, Janice and All,
                            I read something where a
                            teacher asked a child what
                            she wanted to be when she
                            grew up and she said "Happy!"

                            Of course, that was the wrong
                            answer. Happiness is not taught
                            in school. Yet, happiness is
                            the end result of that which
                            is sought by those who are
                            taught how to think and work
                            for a living.

                            Personally, I'd rather the
                            various states of happiness
                            including contentment.

                            And yet the EK teachings
                            are completely Mental
                            Plane via:

                            The Books, like the Shariyats;
                            CDs; DVDs; Internet Videos;
                            Seminar Talks; the RESA
                            Hierarchy; Guidelines; Zoas;
                            Satsang Society and ESC
                            Board business meetings;
                            Workshop and Seminar
                            planning etc., to name
                            just a few of the Mental
                            Plane activities and the
                            basis for Eckankar's
                            existence.

                            Let's not forget those Mystic
                            Worlds, H.I. Letters, IROs,
                            EWS discussions, Membership
                            Donations. These realities
                            are not seen by ECKists
                            because they are too willing
                            to accept the propaganda
                            than think for themselves
                            and question authority.

                            I read a quote by Frank Zappa
                            "The difference between a
                            religion and a cult is how
                            much property they own."
                            It was something like that.
                            Look at the Mormon Church!

                            Thus, IMO, Eckankar will
                            always remain a cult. LOL!

                            Prometheus

                            iam freedom wrote:
                            I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should
                            not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
                            In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy
                            entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are
                            naturally more happy.

                            If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something
                            like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists
                            are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance
                            their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to
                            solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

                            I AM.......HAPPY LOL

                            "iam999freedom" wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                            regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                            meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                            >
                            > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                            sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                            point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                            >
                            > I AM
                            >
                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see it
                            when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                            there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                            talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                            happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                            something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where people
                            there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were people
                            from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town came
                            together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does appear to
                            make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there is a kind
                            of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about. We
                            hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good. But when
                            people are hurt, there are always others
                            > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                            doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                            still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                            willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                            motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part of
                            what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                            everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                            by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                            strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                            broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                            takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                            the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.Â
                            After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                            > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they hide
                            from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to admit
                            that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle
                            like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge
                            to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths have a lot
                            of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to
                            see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your heart can break but
                            can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would rather know my heart will
                            hurt than not to feel anything for others at all. Strong loving hearts will
                            mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the
                            journey. Loving hearts can and will share the pain. Eckankar doesn't do
                            anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does that say about the lem and the
                            other leaders of
                            > > eckankar? I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can
                            even see. Bless all the loving eckist tonight.Â
                            > >
                            prometheus wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                            > > I'm not so sure that humans
                            > > will ever become like, God,
                            > > our imagined or possible
                            > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                            > > not in any lifetime soon.
                            > >
                            > > But, it could be that the
                            > > universe(s) just happened
                            > > and that the remnants of
                            > > other life forms were spread
                            > > to this planet, and others,
                            > > via space rubble... from
                            > > destroyed civilizations
                            > > and planets. Or, was it an
                            > > intentional seeding by an
                            > > advanced race... which was,
                            > > itself, seeded by another
                            > > advanced race etc.
                            > >
                            > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                            > > experiences we have
                            > > are the result of
                            > > interaction with the
                            > > quantum mechanical
                            > > field?
                            > >
                            > > Anyway, it seems to me
                            > > that what really matters
                            > > are relationships. It's our
                            > > relationships with others,
                            > > even strangers, that matter
                            > > most. This is how we really
                            > > learn and grow. Loving
                            > > relationships are valuable.
                            > >
                            > > Klemp, and others like
                            > > him, are: liars; posers;
                            > > have arrested development;
                            > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                            > > and are even psychopathic.
                            > > They are incapable of learning,
                            > > or caring about others (are
                            > > unloving) and attempt to
                            > > impede social progress and
                            > > justice. They use the rest of
                            > > us for their own personal
                            > > greed and selfish desires.
                            > >
                            > > Then, again, this strife and
                            > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                            > > created can make life interesting
                            > > and a challenge, although,
                            > > it can/will also be physically
                            > > and emotionally painful.
                            > >
                            > > But, having a regular life
                            > > without additional commitments
                            > > and involvements can also
                            > > offer rewarding experiences
                            > > and insights. We are never
                            > > all that alone. However, I'm
                            > > not sure how peace of any
                            > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                            > > will ever happen in a world
                            > > controlled by sociopaths.
                            > >
                            > > One must care about everyone
                            > > and have caring relationships
                            > > with people in order for humankind
                            > > to advance and survive. To me,
                            > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                            > > I almost included animals, too,
                            > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                            > > include "caring" about them (all)
                            > > too.
                            > >
                            > > How can one really "care" about
                            > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                            > > except to keep them away from
                            > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                            > > people.
                            > >
                            > > When one thinks about it the
                            > > definition of what's "normal"
                            > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                            > > seem to be more pathological
                            > > than the introverts don't you
                            > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                            > > to force us introverts to become
                            > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                            > > loves company I suppose or is
                            > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                            > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                            > > is more intimidating.
                            > >
                            > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                            > > to worship and viewed as being
                            > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                            > > from "us" being involved in our
                            > > lives because of the differences
                            > > we see in one another. This is
                            > > why there are so many different
                            > > religious dogmas of what's right
                            > > and wrong.
                            > >
                            > > Therefore, the differences in the
                            > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                            > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                            > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                            > > nor take responsibility for our own
                            > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                            > > use God as our scape goat.
                            > >
                            > > There are major flaws with all
                            > > of these religions and the so-called
                            > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                            > > all hearsay and the only thing
                            > > that, supposedly, gives them
                            > > validation is that these various
                            > > people in history/myth that the
                            > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                            > > to have said or done some nice,
                            > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                            > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                            > > time (being ancient) seems to
                            > > have given them credibility, because
                            > > it is believed and taught that
                            > > only Divine Intercession could
                            > > have been the source for their
                            > > Divine Inspiration.
                            > >
                            > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                            > > today, who are not even followers
                            > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                            > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                            > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                            > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                            > > of these major and minor religions.
                            > > Many of these people inspired
                            > > others by never giving up in time
                            > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                            > > there weren't many other choices.
                            > > Even those who did give up and
                            > > had bad things befall them, still,
                            > > maintained their faith and this
                            > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                            > > or saints. If this is the standard
                            > > for religions there are an awful
                            > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                            > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                            > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                            > > with unconditional love for the
                            > > master and you get a submissive
                            > > control pattern as your reward.
                            > > Buyer beware!
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                            > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                            > > an experiment to see if we
                            > > are all capable of evolving
                            > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                            > > Are we to become more than
                            > > merely a divine thought?
                            > > Maybe there is something
                            > > more to that piece of a mirror
                            > > analogy."
                            > >
                            > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                            > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                            > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                            > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
                            misinterpreting
                            > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                            > >
                            > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                            > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                            > >
                            > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                            > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
                            event.
                            > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
                            person
                            > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                            > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
                            moving
                            > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
                            more
                            > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                            > >
                            > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                            > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                            > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
                            expressions
                            > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                            > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                            > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                            > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                            > >
                            > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                            > > that it would ever be necessary.
                            > >
                            > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                            > >
                            > > I AM
                            > >
                            > > prometheus wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hello Non and All,
                            > > > Thanks for the insightful
                            > > > summary. I was exploring
                            > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                            > > > charismatic Christian churches
                            > > > and saw a reference to a
                            > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                            > > >
                            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                            > > >
                            > > > This person is mentioned
                            > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                            > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                            > > > Faith.
                            > > >
                            > > > Even when God seems to
                            > > > turn his back and: causes
                            > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                            > > > lost; cities attacked and
                            > > > overrun by your enemies;
                            > > > people brutalized, tortured
                            > > > and killed, one is to have
                            > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                            > > > reward for keeping this
                            > > > faith. God's ego needs
                            > > > you to believe in him
                            > > > regardless of what pain
                            > > > he allows to befall you.
                            > > >
                            > > > One needs to project
                            > > > a sense of hope in order
                            > > > to better endure life, as
                            > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                            > > >
                            > > > And, it's easier to face these
                            > > > challenges when you believe
                            > > > that God is on your side and
                            > > > not that of your oppressor.
                            > > >
                            > > > However, does God really
                            > > > take sides? It seems that God
                            > > > is/was created in man's image.
                            > > >
                            > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                            > > > an experiment to see if we
                            > > > are all capable of evolving
                            > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                            > > > Are we to become more than
                            > > > merely a divine thought?
                            > > > Maybe there is something
                            > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                            > > > analogy.
                            > > >
                            > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                            > > > has the belief that you (and your
                            > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                            > > > deserved the punishments as
                            > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                            > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                            > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                            > > > most religions see everyday
                            > > > living and hardships as a test
                            > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                            > > > to donate money to support
                            > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                            > > > says and promises the same
                            > > > or similar things in the imagined
                            > > > hereafter.
                            > > >
                            > > > Plus, each religion has always
                            > > > blamed the non-believers for
                            > > > the sins that they suffer under
                            > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                            > > > and Klemp is more like these
                            > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                            > > > admit.
                            > > >
                            > > > Well, got to go now....
                            > > > I just had some thoughts
                            > > > to share.
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus
                            > > >
                            > > "Non" wrote:
                            > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                            > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                            > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
                            anything
                            > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                            > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                            > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                            > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                            > > answers to ask the master etc.
                            > > >
                            > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                            > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                            > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                            > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
                            Dahlia
                            > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                            > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                            > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
                            religion,
                            > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
                            Struggle
                            > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                            > > >
                            > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                            > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                            > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
                            benign
                            > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
                            actually
                            > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
                            out
                            > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                            > > >
                            > > > Non ;)
                            > > >
                            > > > prometheus wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hello Janice,
                            > > > Yes, one would think that
                            > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                            > > > would, at least, attempt
                            > > > to live up to his PR, but
                            > > > that's not the case with
                            > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                            > > > out there by demonstrating
                            > > > his powers? It's not like
                            > > > he announced to the
                            > > > whole world that he was....
                            > > > oh wait, he did!
                            > > >
                            > > > That was a long time ago
                            > > > and he never did make
                            > > > any predictions as most
                            > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                            > > > made some predictions.
                            > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                            > > > haven't noticed and don't
                            > > > mine and that's why he
                            > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                            > > > to preform his responsibilities
                            > > > as a real prophet.
                            > > >
                            > > > Instead, Harold is very
                            > > > cautious of being too
                            > > > direct and understood.
                            > > > He'd rather have EKists
                            > > > fill-in the blanks and
                            > > > imagine what they want,
                            > > > need and expect until
                            > > > they go too far and have
                            > > > to have a behaviour
                            > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                            > > > That's why Klemp usually
                            > > > gives a very one dimensional
                            > > > perspective when he tells
                            > > > a story.
                            > > >
                            > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                            > > > why put too much
                            > > > effort into it! And, he
                            > > > figures that all he needs
                            > > > to do is the KISS thing
                            > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                            > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                            > > > will substitute Soul for
                            > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                            > > >
                            > > > It's really quite amazing
                            > > > how simple Klemp's
                            > > > redundant message is.
                            > > > If EKists would just compare
                            > > > Klemp's simple minded
                            > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                            > > > leaders one would have
                            > > > to wonder what they see
                            > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                            > > > but they just laugh at his
                            > > > quirkiness because he's
                            > > > operating on so many
                            > > > high planes of consciousness
                            > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                            > > >
                            > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                            > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                            > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                            > > > isn't even in the same ball
                            > > > park with the current Dali
                            > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                            > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                            > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                            > > > religion while Eckankar
                            > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                            > > > But, EKists need to compare
                            > > > the two leaders and how
                            > > > they present themselves
                            > > > and what they have to say.
                            > > >
                            > > > Will ECKists make the
                            > > > comparison? No, of course
                            > > > not! They won't even allow
                            > > > the door to be opened a
                            > > > crack because some light
                            > > > might get in and show
                            > > > them the Truth. They can't
                            > > > handle the Truth and
                            > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                            > > > It's much easier, besides,
                            > > > what would they replace
                            > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                            > > > responsibility to think for
                            > > > oneself and exercise free
                            > > > will. And, it would make
                            > > > life too lonely to lose all
                            > > > of those EK friends.
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
                            that
                            > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
                            say
                            > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he
                            is
                            > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
                            ask
                            > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                            > > > charlatan to me.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > The December 2012
                            > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                            > > > in the Ask the Master
                            > > > section are two interesting
                            > > > questions and answers.
                            > > >
                            > > > The first question has
                            > > > to do with Stress and
                            > > > how to overcome it.
                            > > >
                            > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                            > > > washy at best. He says
                            > > > that stress is "very
                            > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                            > > > stress is a good teacher."
                            > > >
                            > > > Klemp goes on to say
                            > > > that people can increase
                            > > > their tolerance to stress
                            > > > by eating healthy, getting
                            > > > enough sleep, and by
                            > > > "Reducing our overuse
                            > > > of electronic devices."
                            > > >
                            > > > In other words it seems
                            > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                            > > > roundabout way, to use
                            > > > moderation. After all,
                            > > > he's saying to reduce
                            > > > "overuse."
                            > > >
                            > > > Then, again, how does
                            > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                            > > > not use their computer
                            > > > 8 hours a day?
                            > > >
                            > > > The next question involves
                            > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                            > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                            > > > boy and two days later his
                            > > > mother translated (died).
                            > > > He indirectly asked if this
                            > > > new baby was his mother.
                            > > >
                            > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                            > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                            > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                            > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                            > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                            > > > anything at all can happen...
                            > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                            > > > son, everything is in accord
                            > > > with what is best for all around."
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Tusa8, Let me try to address your questions and concerns. tuza8 wrote: Hi, prometheus and all, Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai, I
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello Tusa8,
                              Let me try to address
                              your questions and
                              concerns.

                              "tuza8" wrote:
                              "Hi, prometheus and all,

                              Actually, I am former disciple
                              of master ching hai,

                              I dont think she is fake master,"

                              ***
                              ME: Yes, she is a FAKE!
                              You are more of a Master
                              than she is! Why? Because
                              you have more integrity,
                              more honesty, more
                              detachment, and fewer
                              desires than Ching Hai.

                              A true Master cannot be
                              a greedy Capitalist who
                              uses excuses and a slight
                              of hand (magic) to turn
                              appearances into illusion.
                              She is not humble nor is
                              she enlightened, especially,
                              in this Field of Action.
                              ***

                              "but regarding her level,
                              she said she is 8 trillion
                              initiate right now,"

                              ***
                              ME: A True Master does
                              not brag about being a
                              Master nor disclose that
                              they are a Master nor
                              do they disclose their
                              "initiations."
                              ***

                              "I dont believe. ,
                              because from 1986 untill
                              now just 27 years,

                              how can her achieve such
                              level?

                              is it possible once achieve
                              that level in a short time?
                              27 year?"

                              ***
                              ME: These outrageous claims
                              by Ching Hai are simply more
                              proof that she is a fraud. Those
                              who would believe such lies
                              have been tested and have
                              Passed her brainwashing test.

                              Many cult leaders, via increments,
                              will test the waters. They will
                              make a subtle, but illogical,
                              or exaggerated claim or statement
                              and see what happens. If it
                              goes unnoticed/unquestioned
                              or unchallenged and is accepted,
                              then, more and more lies and
                              outrageous claims and orders
                              can be made or handed out
                              until the only people left are
                              those glassy-eyed brainwashed
                              and loyal fanatics who have
                              stopped thinking for themselves.
                              ***

                              "you are a master, so,
                              you know the answer.

                              is it possible?
                              pls tell me."

                              ***
                              ME: I AM No Master.
                              Even if you were to
                              dream of me I would
                              not be a Master. You
                              are your own Master!
                              Dream of yourself as
                              a Master. This, in Truth,
                              is your secret identity.

                              Anyway, I've told you.

                              If you have ears to hear
                              you will hear and, I hope,
                              will understand my words
                              and advice.

                              I'm not perfect... but
                              neither is God. LOL!

                              Prometheus



                              prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Tuza8,
                              > Welcome to the site!
                              > Thanks for the info
                              > on, yet, another religious
                              > scammer/fraud.
                              >
                              > I'm assuming that your
                              > questions are rhetorical.
                              >
                              > I found some info on this
                              > person and the following
                              > video:
                              >
                              > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
                              >
                              > Here's more info that that
                              > I uncovered on Wikipedia:
                              >
                              > [Note the info within the (*****)
                              > It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                              > Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
                              >
                              > Quan Yin Method
                              >
                              > In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the
                              'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin
                              Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat
                              tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she
                              severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with
                              which she is now associated.[10]
                              >
                              >
                              > *****
                              > Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know
                              it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was
                              first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way
                              of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to
                              the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha
                              nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that
                              those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
                              >
                              > Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is
                              purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best,
                              easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves
                              meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that
                              she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged
                              repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                              > *****
                              >
                              >
                              > Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for
                              initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of
                              beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products
                              gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
                              >
                              > "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin
                              Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five
                              precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
                              >
                              > Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                              > Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                              > Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                              > Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                              > Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
                              >
                              > [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
                              >
                              > Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is
                              commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread
                              without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset
                              of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a
                              list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it
                              included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
                              >
                              > The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were
                              fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious
                              organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At
                              the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July
                              1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in
                              20 provinces and cities.[10]
                              >
                              > In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment
                              Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover
                              to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise
                              allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and
                              business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices
                              and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to
                              recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies
                              of "heretical texts."[10]
                              >
                              > [edit]Criticism
                              >
                              > [edit]Environmental violations
                              > In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in
                              Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally
                              constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the
                              pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400
                              and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The
                              private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by
                              police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned
                              to establish a park on the site.[33]
                              >
                              > Yes, I read where she is
                              > very popular in Taiwan
                              > and that she has 20,000
                              > followers world wide.
                              >
                              > She's half Vietnamese
                              > and Chinese and became
                              > a disciple of Thakar Singh
                              > and studied Surat Shabd
                              > Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                              > Light and Sound), but
                              > was, later, initiated by
                              > a Buddhist monk.
                              >
                              > All those who follow
                              > her are asked to become
                              > Vegetarians and initiation
                              > is free of charge. It doesn't
                              > appear that there is a
                              > Membership Donation/Fee
                              > like with Ecklankar, but
                              > she does make a lot of
                              > money by selling books,
                              > videos, etc. She also owns
                              > Vegetarian and Vegan
                              > Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                              > has jewelry outlets, and
                              > designs her own clothing
                              > line.
                              >
                              > Her name, Ching Hai,
                              > means "pure ocean."
                              >
                              > Google the "Quan Yin
                              > Method" to find out
                              > more about her daily
                              > meditation of the inner
                              > L & S.
                              >
                              > She's been described as a:
                              > "tireless publicity seeker;
                              > The Immaterial Girl... Part
                              > Buddha, Part Madonna;
                              > The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                              > ... merchandizing mystic
                              > from Taiwan."
                              >
                              > So, it seems that because
                              > of her Buddhist connections
                              > that she's associated with
                              > the more familiar Buddhism,
                              > however, she teaches the
                              > less known (outside India)
                              > Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                              > ECKankar.
                              >
                              > Funny, though, that her
                              > religion/enterprise had
                              > a later start than ECKankar
                              > but is making more money
                              > and bringing in more people.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              > "tuza8" wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi prometheu,
                              > I agree what you said,
                              > they are some false master
                              > in public.
                              >
                              > recently one femala master,
                              > her name is master ching hai,
                              > master ching hai claim herself
                              > is 8 billion plane initiation level,
                              >
                              > do you believe it?
                              >
                              > in 1985 she become master
                              > and began taught mediatation
                              > on light and sound, whom said
                              > come from higher world into
                              > this lower world ,
                              >
                              > her also said come to this
                              > lower world many times,
                              > alway is a master for help
                              > people.
                              >
                              > do you believe?
                            • Janice Pfeiffer
                              Hi I am, It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven t learned much
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi I am,
                                It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 

                                --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

                                From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM

                                 
                                Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

                                Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

                                I AM

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                >
                                > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                                > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                >
                                > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > From: prometheus_973
                                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                > I'm not so sure that humans
                                > will ever become like, God,
                                > our imagined or possible
                                > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                > not in any lifetime soon.
                                >
                                > But, it could be that the
                                > universe(s) just happened
                                > and that the remnants of
                                > other life forms were spread
                                > to this planet, and others,
                                > via space rubble... from
                                > destroyed civilizations
                                > and planets. Or, was it an
                                > intentional seeding by an
                                > advanced race... which was,
                                > itself, seeded by another
                                > advanced race etc.
                                >
                                > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                > experiences we have
                                > are the result of
                                > interaction with the
                                > quantum mechanical
                                > field?
                                >
                                > Anyway, it seems to me
                                > that what really matters
                                > are relationships. It's our
                                > relationships with others,
                                > even strangers, that matter
                                > most. This is how we really
                                > learn and grow. Loving
                                > relationships are valuable.
                                >
                                > Klemp, and others like
                                > him, are: liars; posers;
                                > have arrested development;
                                > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                > and are even psychopathic.
                                > They are incapable of learning,
                                > or caring about others (are
                                > unloving) and attempt to
                                > impede social progress and
                                > justice. They use the rest of
                                > us for their own personal
                                > greed and selfish desires.
                                >
                                > Then, again, this strife and
                                > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                > created can make life interesting
                                > and a challenge, although,
                                > it can/will also be physically
                                > and emotionally painful.
                                >
                                > But, having a regular life
                                > without additional commitments
                                > and involvements can also
                                > offer rewarding experiences
                                > and insights. We are never
                                > all that alone. However, I'm
                                > not sure how peace of any
                                > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                > will ever happen in a world
                                > controlled by sociopaths.
                                >
                                > One must care about everyone
                                > and have caring relationships
                                > with people in order for humankind
                                > to advance and survive. To me,
                                > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                > I almost included animals, too,
                                > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                > include "caring" about them (all)
                                > too.
                                >
                                > How can one really "care" about
                                > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                > except to keep them away from
                                > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                > people.
                                >
                                > When one thinks about it the
                                > definition of what's "normal"
                                > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                > seem to be more pathological
                                > than the introverts don't you
                                > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                > to force us introverts to become
                                > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                > loves company I suppose or is
                                > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                > is more intimidating.
                                >
                                > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                > to worship and viewed as being
                                > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                > from "us" being involved in our
                                > lives because of the differences
                                > we see in one another. This is
                                > why there are so many different
                                > religious dogmas of what's right
                                > and wrong.
                                >
                                > Therefore, the differences in the
                                > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                > nor take responsibility for our own
                                > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                > use God as our scape goat.
                                >
                                > There are major flaws with all
                                > of these religions and the so-called
                                > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                > all hearsay and the only thing
                                > that, supposedly, gives them
                                > validation is that these various
                                > people in history/myth that the
                                > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                > to have said or done some nice,
                                > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                > time (being ancient) seems to
                                > have given them credibility, because
                                > it is believed and taught that
                                > only Divine Intercession could
                                > have been the source for their
                                > Divine Inspiration.
                                >
                                > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                > today, who are not even followers
                                > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                > of these major and minor religions.
                                > Many of these people inspired
                                > others by never giving up in time
                                > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                > there weren't many other choices.
                                > Even those who did give up and
                                > had bad things befall them, still,
                                > maintained their faith and this
                                > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                > or saints. If this is the standard
                                > for religions there are an awful
                                > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                > with unconditional love for the
                                > master and you get a submissive
                                > control pattern as your reward.
                                > Buyer beware!
                                >
                                > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                > an experiment to see if we
                                > are all capable of evolving
                                > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                > Are we to become more than
                                > merely a divine thought?
                                > Maybe there is something
                                > more to that piece of a mirror
                                > analogy."
                                >
                                > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                >
                                > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                >
                                > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                >
                                > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                >
                                > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                > that it would ever be necessary.
                                >
                                > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                >
                                > I AM
                                >
                                > prometheus wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello Non and All,
                                > > Thanks for the insightful
                                > > summary. I was exploring
                                > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                > > charismatic Christian churches
                                > > and saw a reference to a
                                > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                > >
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                > >
                                > > This person is mentioned
                                > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                > > Faith.
                                > >
                                > > Even when God seems to
                                > > turn his back and: causes
                                > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                > > lost; cities attacked and
                                > > overrun by your enemies;
                                > > people brutalized, tortured
                                > > and killed, one is to have
                                > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                > > reward for keeping this
                                > > faith. God's ego needs
                                > > you to believe in him
                                > > regardless of what pain
                                > > he allows to befall you.
                                > >
                                > > One needs to project
                                > > a sense of hope in order
                                > > to better endure life, as
                                > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                > >
                                > > And, it's easier to face these
                                > > challenges when you believe
                                > > that God is on your side and
                                > > not that of your oppressor.
                                > >
                                > > However, does God really
                                > > take sides? It seems that God
                                > > is/was created in man's image.
                                > >
                                > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                > > an experiment to see if we
                                > > are all capable of evolving
                                > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                > > Are we to become more than
                                > > merely a divine thought?
                                > > Maybe there is something
                                > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                > > analogy.
                                > >
                                > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                > > has the belief that you (and your
                                > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                > > deserved the punishments as
                                > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                > > most religions see everyday
                                > > living and hardships as a test
                                > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                > > to donate money to support
                                > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                > > says and promises the same
                                > > or similar things in the imagined
                                > > hereafter.
                                > >
                                > > Plus, each religion has always
                                > > blamed the non-believers for
                                > > the sins that they suffer under
                                > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                > > and Klemp is more like these
                                > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                > > admit.
                                > >
                                > > Well, got to go now....
                                > > I just had some thoughts
                                > > to share.
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > "Non" wrote:
                                > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                > answers to ask the master etc.
                                > >
                                > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                > >
                                > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                > >
                                > > Non ;)
                                > >
                                > > prometheus wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello Janice,
                                > > Yes, one would think that
                                > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                > > would, at least, attempt
                                > > to live up to his PR, but
                                > > that's not the case with
                                > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                > > out there by demonstrating
                                > > his powers? It's not like
                                > > he announced to the
                                > > whole world that he was....
                                > > oh wait, he did!
                                > >
                                > > That was a long time ago
                                > > and he never did make
                                > > any predictions as most
                                > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                > > made some predictions.
                                > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                > > haven't noticed and don't
                                > > mine and that's why he
                                > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                > > to preform his responsibilities
                                > > as a real prophet.
                                > >
                                > > Instead, Harold is very
                                > > cautious of being too
                                > > direct and understood.
                                > > He'd rather have EKists
                                > > fill-in the blanks and
                                > > imagine what they want,
                                > > need and expect until
                                > > they go too far and have
                                > > to have a behaviour
                                > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                > > That's why Klemp usually
                                > > gives a very one dimensional
                                > > perspective when he tells
                                > > a story.
                                > >
                                > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                > > why put too much
                                > > effort into it! And, he
                                > > figures that all he needs
                                > > to do is the KISS thing
                                > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                > > will substitute Soul for
                                > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                > >
                                > > It's really quite amazing
                                > > how simple Klemp's
                                > > redundant message is.
                                > > If EKists would just compare
                                > > Klemp's simple minded
                                > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                > > leaders one would have
                                > > to wonder what they see
                                > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                > > but they just laugh at his
                                > > quirkiness because he's
                                > > operating on so many
                                > > high planes of consciousness
                                > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                > >
                                > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                > > isn't even in the same ball
                                > > park with the current Dali
                                > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                > > religion while Eckankar
                                > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                > > But, EKists need to compare
                                > > the two leaders and how
                                > > they present themselves
                                > > and what they have to say.
                                > >
                                > > Will ECKists make the
                                > > comparison? No, of course
                                > > not! They won't even allow
                                > > the door to be opened a
                                > > crack because some light
                                > > might get in and show
                                > > them the Truth. They can't
                                > > handle the Truth and
                                > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                > > It's much easier, besides,
                                > > what would they replace
                                > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                > > responsibility to think for
                                > > oneself and exercise free
                                > > will. And, it would make
                                > > life too lonely to lose all
                                > > of those EK friends.
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                > > charlatan to me.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus wrote:
                                > >
                                > > The December 2012
                                > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                > > in the Ask the Master
                                > > section are two interesting
                                > > questions and answers.
                                > >
                                > > The first question has
                                > > to do with Stress and
                                > > how to overcome it.
                                > >
                                > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                > > washy at best. He says
                                > > that stress is "very
                                > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                > > stress is a good teacher."
                                > >
                                > > Klemp goes on to say
                                > > that people can increase
                                > > their tolerance to stress
                                > > by eating healthy, getting
                                > > enough sleep, and by
                                > > "Reducing our overuse
                                > > of electronic devices."
                                > >
                                > > In other words it seems
                                > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                > > roundabout way, to use
                                > > moderation. After all,
                                > > he's saying to reduce
                                > > "overuse."
                                > >
                                > > Then, again, how does
                                > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                > > not use their computer
                                > > 8 hours a day?
                                > >
                                > > The next question involves
                                > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                > > boy and two days later his
                                > > mother translated (died).
                                > > He indirectly asked if this
                                > > new baby was his mother.
                                > >
                                > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                > > anything at all can happen...
                                > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                > > son, everything is in accord
                                > > with what is best for all around."
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                >

                              • Non
                                Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                  Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.

                                  Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.

                                  Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.

                                  Non ;)

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi I am,
                                  > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
                                  >
                                  > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: iam999freedom
                                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                  >
                                  > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                  >
                                  > I AM
                                  >
                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
                                  > there are always others
                                  > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
                                  > busy hiding their
                                  > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
                                  > other leaders of
                                  > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                  > >
                                  > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > From: prometheus_973
                                  > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                  > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >  
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                  > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                  > > will ever become like, God,
                                  > > our imagined or possible
                                  > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                  > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                  > >
                                  > > But, it could be that the
                                  > > universe(s) just happened
                                  > > and that the remnants of
                                  > > other life forms were spread
                                  > > to this planet, and others,
                                  > > via space rubble... from
                                  > > destroyed civilizations
                                  > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                  > > intentional seeding by an
                                  > > advanced race... which was,
                                  > > itself, seeded by another
                                  > > advanced race etc.
                                  > >
                                  > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                  > > experiences we have
                                  > > are the result of
                                  > > interaction with the
                                  > > quantum mechanical
                                  > > field?
                                  > >
                                  > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                  > > that what really matters
                                  > > are relationships. It's our
                                  > > relationships with others,
                                  > > even strangers, that matter
                                  > > most. This is how we really
                                  > > learn and grow. Loving
                                  > > relationships are valuable.
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp, and others like
                                  > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                  > > have arrested development;
                                  > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                  > > and are even psychopathic.
                                  > > They are incapable of learning,
                                  > > or caring about others (are
                                  > > unloving) and attempt to
                                  > > impede social progress and
                                  > > justice. They use the rest of
                                  > > us for their own personal
                                  > > greed and selfish desires.
                                  > >
                                  > > Then, again, this strife and
                                  > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                  > > created can make life interesting
                                  > > and a challenge, although,
                                  > > it can/will also be physically
                                  > > and emotionally painful.
                                  > >
                                  > > But, having a regular life
                                  > > without additional commitments
                                  > > and involvements can also
                                  > > offer rewarding experiences
                                  > > and insights. We are never
                                  > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                  > > not sure how peace of any
                                  > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                  > > will ever happen in a world
                                  > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                  > >
                                  > > One must care about everyone
                                  > > and have caring relationships
                                  > > with people in order for humankind
                                  > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                  > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                  > > I almost included animals, too,
                                  > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                  > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                  > > too.
                                  > >
                                  > > How can one really "care" about
                                  > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                  > > except to keep them away from
                                  > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                  > > people.
                                  > >
                                  > > When one thinks about it the
                                  > > definition of what's "normal"
                                  > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                  > > seem to be more pathological
                                  > > than the introverts don't you
                                  > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                  > > to force us introverts to become
                                  > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                  > > loves company I suppose or is
                                  > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                  > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                  > > is more intimidating.
                                  > >
                                  > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                  > > to worship and viewed as being
                                  > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                  > > from "us" being involved in our
                                  > > lives because of the differences
                                  > > we see in one another. This is
                                  > > why there are so many different
                                  > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                  > > and wrong.
                                  > >
                                  > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                  > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                  > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                  > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                  > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                  > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                  > > use God as our scape goat.
                                  > >
                                  > > There are major flaws with all
                                  > > of these religions and the so-called
                                  > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                  > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                  > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                  > > validation is that these various
                                  > > people in history/myth that the
                                  > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                  > > to have said or done some nice,
                                  > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                  > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                  > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                  > > have given them credibility, because
                                  > > it is believed and taught that
                                  > > only Divine Intercession could
                                  > > have been the source for their
                                  > > Divine Inspiration.
                                  > >
                                  > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                  > > today, who are not even followers
                                  > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                  > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                  > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                  > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                  > > of these major and minor religions.
                                  > > Many of these people inspired
                                  > > others by never giving up in time
                                  > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                  > > there weren't many other choices.
                                  > > Even those who did give up and
                                  > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                  > > maintained their faith and this
                                  > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                  > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                  > > for religions there are an awful
                                  > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                  > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                  > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                  > > with unconditional love for the
                                  > > master and you get a submissive
                                  > > control pattern as your reward.
                                  > > Buyer beware!
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                  > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                  > > an experiment to see if we
                                  > > are all capable of evolving
                                  > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                  > > Are we to become more than
                                  > > merely a divine thought?
                                  > > Maybe there is something
                                  > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                  > > analogy."
                                  > >
                                  > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                  > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                  > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                  > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                  > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                  > >
                                  > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                  > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                  > >
                                  > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                  > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                  > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                  > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                  > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                  > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                  > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                  > >
                                  > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                  > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                  > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                  > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                  > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                  > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                  > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                  > >
                                  > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                  > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                  > >
                                  > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                  > >
                                  > > I AM
                                  > >
                                  > > prometheus wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hello Non and All,
                                  > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                  > > > summary. I was exploring
                                  > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                  > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                  > > > and saw a reference to a
                                  > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                  > > >
                                  > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                  > > >
                                  > > > This person is mentioned
                                  > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                  > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                  > > > Faith.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Even when God seems to
                                  > > > turn his back and: causes
                                  > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                  > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                  > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                  > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                  > > > and killed, one is to have
                                  > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                  > > > reward for keeping this
                                  > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                  > > > you to believe in him
                                  > > > regardless of what pain
                                  > > > he allows to befall you.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > One needs to project
                                  > > > a sense of hope in order
                                  > > > to better endure life, as
                                  > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                  > > > challenges when you believe
                                  > > > that God is on your side and
                                  > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > However, does God really
                                  > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                  > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                  > > > an experiment to see if we
                                  > > > are all capable of evolving
                                  > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                  > > > Are we to become more than
                                  > > > merely a divine thought?
                                  > > > Maybe there is something
                                  > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                  > > > analogy.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                  > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                  > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                  > > > deserved the punishments as
                                  > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                  > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                  > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                  > > > most religions see everyday
                                  > > > living and hardships as a test
                                  > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                  > > > to donate money to support
                                  > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                  > > > says and promises the same
                                  > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                  > > > hereafter.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                  > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                  > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                  > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                  > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                  > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                  > > > admit.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Well, got to go now....
                                  > > > I just had some thoughts
                                  > > > to share.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus
                                  > > >
                                  > > "Non" wrote:
                                  > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                  > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                  > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                  > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                  > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                  > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                  > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                  > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                  > > >
                                  > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                  > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                  > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                  > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                  > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                  > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                  > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                  > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                  > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                  > > >
                                  > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                  > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                  > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                  > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                  > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                  > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Non ;)
                                  > > >
                                  > > > prometheus wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hello Janice,
                                  > > > Yes, one would think that
                                  > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                  > > > would, at least, attempt
                                  > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                  > > > that's not the case with
                                  > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                  > > > out there by demonstrating
                                  > > > his powers? It's not like
                                  > > > he announced to the
                                  > > > whole world that he was....
                                  > > > oh wait, he did!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > That was a long time ago
                                  > > > and he never did make
                                  > > > any predictions as most
                                  > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                  > > > made some predictions.
                                  > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                  > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                  > > > mine and that's why he
                                  > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                  > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                  > > > as a real prophet.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                  > > > cautious of being too
                                  > > > direct and understood.
                                  > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                  > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                  > > > imagine what they want,
                                  > > > need and expect until
                                  > > > they go too far and have
                                  > > > to have a behaviour
                                  > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                  > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                  > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                  > > > perspective when he tells
                                  > > > a story.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                  > > > why put too much
                                  > > > effort into it! And, he
                                  > > > figures that all he needs
                                  > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                  > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                  > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                  > > > will substitute Soul for
                                  > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It's really quite amazing
                                  > > > how simple Klemp's
                                  > > > redundant message is.
                                  > > > If EKists would just compare
                                  > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                  > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                  > > > leaders one would have
                                  > > > to wonder what they see
                                  > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                  > > > but they just laugh at his
                                  > > > quirkiness because he's
                                  > > > operating on so many
                                  > > > high planes of consciousness
                                  > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                  > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                  > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                  > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                  > > > park with the current Dali
                                  > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                  > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                  > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                  > > > religion while Eckankar
                                  > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                  > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                  > > > the two leaders and how
                                  > > > they present themselves
                                  > > > and what they have to say.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Will ECKists make the
                                  > > > comparison? No, of course
                                  > > > not! They won't even allow
                                  > > > the door to be opened a
                                  > > > crack because some light
                                  > > > might get in and show
                                  > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                  > > > handle the Truth and
                                  > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                  > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                  > > > what would they replace
                                  > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                  > > > responsibility to think for
                                  > > > oneself and exercise free
                                  > > > will. And, it would make
                                  > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                  > > > of those EK friends.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                  > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                  > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                  > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                  > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                  > > > charlatan to me.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The December 2012
                                  > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                  > > > in the Ask the Master
                                  > > > section are two interesting
                                  > > > questions and answers.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The first question has
                                  > > > to do with Stress and
                                  > > > how to overcome it.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                  > > > washy at best. He says
                                  > > > that stress is "very
                                  > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                  > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                  > > > that people can increase
                                  > > > their tolerance to stress
                                  > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                  > > > enough sleep, and by
                                  > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                  > > > of electronic devices."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In other words it seems
                                  > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                  > > > roundabout way, to use
                                  > > > moderation. After all,
                                  > > > he's saying to reduce
                                  > > > "overuse."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Then, again, how does
                                  > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                  > > > not use their computer
                                  > > > 8 hours a day?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The next question involves
                                  > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                  > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                  > > > boy and two days later his
                                  > > > mother translated (died).
                                  > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                  > > > new baby was his mother.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                  > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                  > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                  > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                  > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                  > > > anything at all can happen...
                                  > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                  > > > son, everything is in accord
                                  > > > with what is best for all around."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • etznab18
                                  However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It states that the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                    "However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It states that "the spiritual workers created man and placed
                                    within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul."

                                    ***

                                    Then the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul; and man became like the living gods of the spirit worlds with intellectual powers, physical strength, and Soul. ... ." - S.K.S., Book One, p. 44

                                    Compare with:

                                    "The Seventh Command: And when this was done, the Seventh Intellect said: 'Let us make man after our own fashion and let us endow him with powers to rule this earth.' Then the Seven-Headed Intellect, The Creator of All Things throughout the Universe, created man and placed within his body a living, imperishable spirit, and man became like the Creator in intellectual power."

                                    http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ssm/ssm07.htm

                                    and (this is the older version)

                                    "Then Narayana, the Seven-headed Intellect, the Creator of all things throughout the universe, created man, and placed within his body a living, imperishable spirit, and man became like Narayana in intellectual power. Then was creation complete."

                                    http://campbellmgold.com/archive_esoteric/lost_continent_mu_churchward_1931.pdf

                                    Judging by the number of other similarities between writings of Twitchell and Churchward (concerning creation and Lemuria, etc.) I wonder if that quote by Twitchell was not entirely original. In fact, I believe Churchward's first book (Lost Continent of Mu) was part of the recommended reading list mentioned in LTG.

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello I Am,
                                    > Okay, let me give it
                                    > a shot and use some
                                    > excerpts etc.
                                    >
                                    > HK's talking about
                                    > psychological studies
                                    > using identical twins
                                    > (not conjoined) that
                                    > were separated soon
                                    > after birth. They grew
                                    > up elsewhere and had
                                    > different influences
                                    > but dressed the same
                                    > and had the same type
                                    > of dog and gave the
                                    > dog the same name etc.,
                                    > etc.
                                    >
                                    > Thus, it seems that
                                    > Free Will relies upon
                                    > genetics (nature) more
                                    > than it does upon nurture,
                                    > although, HK says that
                                    > Yogi Berra stated that
                                    > "in theory, practice doesn't
                                    > matter; in practice, it does."
                                    >
                                    > BTW- According to Klemp
                                    > "The Lords of Karma have
                                    > selected a body with the
                                    > appropriate genes for each
                                    > student."
                                    >
                                    > However, HK has somewhat
                                    > contradicted what is in CH.
                                    > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                                    > that "the spiritual workers
                                    > created man and placed
                                    > within him a living imperishable
                                    > Spirit, called Soul."
                                    >
                                    > There is no other mention
                                    > of these "spiritual workers."
                                    >
                                    > Anywho-
                                    >
                                    > HK is so clever the way
                                    > he'll twist a quote to add
                                    > even more confusion to
                                    > his message of absolute
                                    > servitude and obedience.
                                    >
                                    > I counted HK using "But"
                                    > four times. In an old H.I.
                                    > Letter he said never to
                                    > use "But" with one another
                                    > and that it was a nail in
                                    > the coffin of invention and
                                    > took away from what was
                                    > previously said.
                                    >
                                    > HK:
                                    > "BUT they dug in their heels
                                    > at the finding that such twins'
                                    > IQs were nearly as similar as
                                    > their heights."
                                    >
                                    > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                                    > set. A kind owner may let it out
                                    > into the room on occasion. BUT
                                    > it is still in a house."
                                    >
                                    > "Researchers, too, can advance
                                    > only to a fixed point in their studies
                                    > of what elements make up a whole
                                    > individual. BUT they do not have
                                    > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                                    > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                                    >
                                    > Funny that Klemp states that he
                                    > holds "a magical key" to control
                                    > others like a Black Magician would.
                                    >
                                    > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                                    > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                                    > must have the right kind and amount
                                    > of daily experiences."
                                    >
                                    > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                                    > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                                    > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                                    > the "right kind and amount of daily
                                    > experiences."
                                    >
                                    > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                                    > doesn't like science and psychologists
                                    > since getting locked up in an asylum
                                    > and having to "play-the-game" to
                                    > be released early.
                                    >
                                    > HK states that "Real free will rests
                                    > entirely on trusting the Master's
                                    > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                                    > many choices to make in all things
                                    > human and divine."
                                    >
                                    > In other words do as I say not
                                    > as I do and there is no such
                                    > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                                    > Does that kind sound like Cult
                                    > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                                    > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                                    > that "He gives suggestions" and
                                    > "seldom does he issue directives...
                                    > True Free Will of an individual
                                    > stands upon the Mahanta's
                                    > guidance."
                                    >
                                    > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                                    > as he speaks from experience:
                                    > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                                    > ingrained ideas about patterns
                                    > against them. A subject thinks
                                    > he has the quick mind and eyes
                                    > to catch a Magician in an act,
                                    > even while he is being unburdened
                                    > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                                    > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                                    > played upon people by illusion."
                                    >
                                    > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                                    > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                                    > exercises," but write those snail-
                                    > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                                    > thinking and so I can use those
                                    > stories for my next book.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > iam999freedom wrote:
                                    > Hi Prometheus,
                                    >
                                    > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                                    > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                                    > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                                    >
                                    > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                                    > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                                    > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                                    > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                                    > different character than the other."
                                    >
                                    > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                                    > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next morning
                                    > on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                                    >
                                    > I still have yet to receive a response.
                                    >
                                    > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic Note
                                    > that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                                    >
                                    > Thanks,
                                    > I AM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > prometheus_wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > The December 2012
                                    > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                    > > in the Ask the Master
                                    > > section are two interesting
                                    > > questions and answers.
                                    > >
                                    > > The first question has
                                    > > to do with Stress and
                                    > > how to overcome it.
                                    > >
                                    > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                    > > washy at best. He says
                                    > > that stress is "very
                                    > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                    > > stress is a good teacher."
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp goes on to say
                                    > > that people increase
                                    > > their tolerance to stress
                                    > > by eating healthy, getting
                                    > > enough sleep, and by
                                    > > "Reducing our overuse
                                    > > of electronic devices."
                                    > >
                                    > > In other words it seems
                                    > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                    > > roundabout way, to use
                                    > > moderation. After all,
                                    > > he's saying to reduce
                                    > > "overuse."
                                    > >
                                    > > Then, again, how does
                                    > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                    > > not use their computer
                                    > > 8 hours a day?
                                    > >
                                    > > The next question involves
                                    > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                    > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                    > > boy and two days later his
                                    > > mother translated (died).
                                    > > He indirectly asked if this
                                    > > new baby was his mother.
                                    > >
                                    > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                    > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                    > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                    > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                    > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                    > > anything at all can happen...
                                    > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                    > > son, everything is in accord
                                    > > with what is best for all around."
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    >
                                  • etznab18
                                    Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                      Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a number of things. Another study suggested that "even one's political leanings are largely shaped by genes (not by 'free will,' or choice.)"

                                      OK? Got the picture now? Combine that with the first paragraph of Harold's article and with the other paragraphs that mentioned free will, illusion and influence of genes.

                                      My impression from the article was that genes were considered to have great influence upon people's behaviors, even moreso than upbringing, or life's experiences.

                                      Now, I've seen studies where twins grow up in different environments where one gets cancer and the other doesn't. Also, I think there is a lot of "dark space" about the physiology of genes (just like there is a lot of "dark space" in the universe ... the majority, some think.) Genes, IMO, don't matter so much as whether the genes are "turned on" or not. There are lots and lots of genes (or DNA) that remain inactive I think, what they call junk DNA, and my guess is that life experiences and upbringing DO have an effect on shaping individual character. Even with identical twins.

                                      The idea that genes have such a great influence on behavior is just relative to any number of other things, IMO.

                                      I had to wonder, was Harold speaking about Eugenics? or something similar?

                                      Consider the following:

                                      Doubts on genetic mutation triggered by inheritance

                                      "The first major challenge to conventional eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was made in 1915 by Thomas Hunt Morgan, who demonstrated the event of genetic mutation occurring outside of inheritance involving the discovery of the hatching of a fruit fly with white eyes from a family and ancestry of the red-eyed Drosophila melanogaster species of fruit fly.[36] Morgan claimed that this demonstrated that major genetic changes occurred outside of inheritance and that the concept of eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was, to some extent, not completely scientifically accurate.[36]

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Doubts_on_genetic_mutation_triggered_by_inheritance

                                      "A gene is a molecular unit of heredity of a living organism. It is a name given to some stretches of DNA and RNA that code for a polypeptide or for an RNA chain that has a function in the organism. [... .]"

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes#Changing_concept

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello I AM and All,
                                      > Actually Klemp did cite some
                                      > studies and I Googled it myself
                                      > and saw that there is proof that
                                      > identical twins share similarities.
                                      > The mirrored behaviors could
                                      > be genetical with brain frequencies
                                      > and brain function being the
                                      > same due to a quantum mechanical
                                      > influence. I threw that last one
                                      > in on my own, but who knows?
                                      >
                                      > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
                                      > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
                                      > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
                                      > use the Lords of Karma ruse
                                      > which, BTW, is not solely owned
                                      > by Eckankar.
                                      >
                                      > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
                                      > to get new members by promising
                                      > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
                                      > Liberation" but then he switches
                                      > it up and demands (suggests)
                                      > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
                                      > Team participation in order to,
                                      > possibly, get promoted and receive
                                      > "Spiritual Rewards."
                                      >
                                      > It is funny that Klemp claims to
                                      > take "Free Will" away from Souls
                                      > who join Eckankar and follow him.
                                      > Does this mean that those Souls
                                      > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
                                      > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > iam999freedom wrote:
                                      > Hi Prometheus,
                                      > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
                                      > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
                                      > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
                                      > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
                                      > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
                                      > the environment.
                                      >
                                      > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
                                      > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
                                      > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
                                      >
                                      > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
                                      > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
                                      > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
                                      >
                                      > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
                                      > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
                                      > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
                                      > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
                                      >
                                      > I AM
                                      >
                                      > prometheus_973" wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello I Am,
                                      > > Okay, let me give it
                                      > > a shot and use some
                                      > > excerpts etc.
                                      > >
                                      > > HK's talking about
                                      > > psychological studies
                                      > > using identical twins
                                      > > (not conjoined) that
                                      > > were separated soon
                                      > > after birth. They grew
                                      > > up elsewhere and had
                                      > > different influences
                                      > > but dressed the same
                                      > > and had the same type
                                      > > of dog and gave the
                                      > > dog the same name etc.,
                                      > > etc.
                                      > >
                                      > > Thus, it seems that
                                      > > Free Will relies upon
                                      > > genetics (nature) more
                                      > > than it does upon nurture,
                                      > > although, HK says that
                                      > > Yogi Berra stated that
                                      > > "in theory, practice doesn't
                                      > > matter; in practice, it does."
                                      > >
                                      > > BTW- According to Klemp
                                      > > "The Lords of Karma have
                                      > > selected a body with the
                                      > > appropriate genes for each
                                      > > student."
                                      > >
                                      > > However, HK has somewhat
                                      > > contradicted what is in CH.
                                      > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                                      > > that "the spiritual workers
                                      > > created man and placed
                                      > > within him a living imperishable
                                      > > Spirit, called Soul."
                                      > >
                                      > > There is no other mention
                                      > > of these "spiritual workers."
                                      > >
                                      > > Anywho-
                                      > >
                                      > > HK is so clever the way
                                      > > he'll twist a quote to add
                                      > > even more confusion to
                                      > > his message of absolute
                                      > > servitude and obedience.
                                      > >
                                      > > I counted HK using "But"
                                      > > four times. In an old H.I.
                                      > > Letter he said never to
                                      > > use "But" with one another
                                      > > and that it was a nail in
                                      > > the coffin of invention and
                                      > > took away from what was
                                      > > previously said.
                                      > >
                                      > > HK:
                                      > > "BUT they dug in their heels
                                      > > at the finding that such twins'
                                      > > IQs were nearly as similar as
                                      > > their heights."
                                      > >
                                      > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                                      > > set. A kind owner may let it out
                                      > > into the room on occasion. BUT
                                      > > it is still in a house."
                                      > >
                                      > > "Researchers, too, can advance
                                      > > only to a fixed point in their studies
                                      > > of what elements make up a whole
                                      > > individual. BUT they do not have
                                      > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                                      > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                                      > >
                                      > > Funny that Klemp states that he
                                      > > holds "a magical key" to control
                                      > > others like a Black Magician would.
                                      > >
                                      > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                                      > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                                      > > must have the right kind and amount
                                      > > of daily experiences."
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                                      > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                                      > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                                      > > the "right kind and amount of daily
                                      > > experiences."
                                      > >
                                      > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                                      > > doesn't like science and psychologists
                                      > > since getting locked up in an asylum
                                      > > and having to "play-the-game" to
                                      > > be released early.
                                      > >
                                      > > HK states that "Real free will rests
                                      > > entirely on trusting the Master's
                                      > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                                      > > many choices to make in all things
                                      > > human and divine."
                                      > >
                                      > > In other words do as I say not
                                      > > as I do and there is no such
                                      > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                                      > > Does that kind sound like Cult
                                      > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                                      > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                                      > > that "He gives suggestions" and
                                      > > "seldom does he issue directives...
                                      > > True Free Will of an individual
                                      > > stands upon the Mahanta's
                                      > > guidance."
                                      > >
                                      > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                                      > > as he speaks from experience:
                                      > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                                      > > ingrained ideas about patterns
                                      > > against them. A subject thinks
                                      > > he has the quick mind and eyes
                                      > > to catch a Magician in an act,
                                      > > even while he is being unburdened
                                      > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                                      > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                                      > > played upon people by illusion."
                                      > >
                                      > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                                      > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                                      > > exercises," but write those snail-
                                      > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                                      > > thinking and so I can use those
                                      > > stories for my next book.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > iam999freedom wrote:
                                      > > Hi Prometheus,
                                      > >
                                      > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                                      > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                                      > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                                      > >
                                      > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                                      > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                                      > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                                      > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                                      > > different character than the other."
                                      > >
                                      > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                                      > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
                                      > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                                      > >
                                      > > I still have yet to receive a response.
                                      > >
                                      > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
                                      > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                                      > >
                                      > > Thanks,
                                      > > I AM
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > prometheus_wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The December 2012
                                      > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                      > > > in the Ask the Master
                                      > > > section are two interesting
                                      > > > questions and answers.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The first question has
                                      > > > to do with Stress and
                                      > > > how to overcome it.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                      > > > washy at best. He says
                                      > > > that stress is "very
                                      > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                      > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                      > > > that people increase
                                      > > > their tolerance to stress
                                      > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                      > > > enough sleep, and by
                                      > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                      > > > of electronic devices."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > In other words it seems
                                      > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                      > > > roundabout way, to use
                                      > > > moderation. After all,
                                      > > > he's saying to reduce
                                      > > > "overuse."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Then, again, how does
                                      > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                      > > > not use their computer
                                      > > > 8 hours a day?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The next question involves
                                      > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                      > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                      > > > boy and two days later his
                                      > > > mother translated (died).
                                      > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                      > > > new baby was his mother.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                      > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                      > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                      > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                      > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                      > > > anything at all can happen...
                                      > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                      > > > son, everything is in accord
                                      > > > with what is best for all around."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Non
                                      Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 12, 2013
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                                        Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated as far as religion may be growing. :)

                                        Non ;)

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.
                                        >
                                        > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.
                                        >
                                        > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                        >
                                        > Non ;)
                                        >
                                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi I am,
                                        > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
                                        > >
                                        > > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > From: iam999freedom
                                        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >  
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                        > >
                                        > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                        > >
                                        > > I AM
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
                                        > > there are always others
                                        > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
                                        > > busy hiding their
                                        > > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
                                        > > other leaders of
                                        > > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > From: prometheus_973
                                        > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                        > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >  
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                        > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                        > > > will ever become like, God,
                                        > > > our imagined or possible
                                        > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                        > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > But, it could be that the
                                        > > > universe(s) just happened
                                        > > > and that the remnants of
                                        > > > other life forms were spread
                                        > > > to this planet, and others,
                                        > > > via space rubble... from
                                        > > > destroyed civilizations
                                        > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                        > > > intentional seeding by an
                                        > > > advanced race... which was,
                                        > > > itself, seeded by another
                                        > > > advanced race etc.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                        > > > experiences we have
                                        > > > are the result of
                                        > > > interaction with the
                                        > > > quantum mechanical
                                        > > > field?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                        > > > that what really matters
                                        > > > are relationships. It's our
                                        > > > relationships with others,
                                        > > > even strangers, that matter
                                        > > > most. This is how we really
                                        > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                        > > > relationships are valuable.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Klemp, and others like
                                        > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                        > > > have arrested development;
                                        > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                        > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                        > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                        > > > or caring about others (are
                                        > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                        > > > impede social progress and
                                        > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                        > > > us for their own personal
                                        > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                        > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                        > > > created can make life interesting
                                        > > > and a challenge, although,
                                        > > > it can/will also be physically
                                        > > > and emotionally painful.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > But, having a regular life
                                        > > > without additional commitments
                                        > > > and involvements can also
                                        > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                        > > > and insights. We are never
                                        > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                        > > > not sure how peace of any
                                        > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                        > > > will ever happen in a world
                                        > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > One must care about everyone
                                        > > > and have caring relationships
                                        > > > with people in order for humankind
                                        > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                        > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                        > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                        > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                        > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                        > > > too.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > How can one really "care" about
                                        > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                        > > > except to keep them away from
                                        > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                        > > > people.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > When one thinks about it the
                                        > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                        > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                        > > > seem to be more pathological
                                        > > > than the introverts don't you
                                        > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                        > > > to force us introverts to become
                                        > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                        > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                        > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                        > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                        > > > is more intimidating.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                        > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                        > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                        > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                        > > > lives because of the differences
                                        > > > we see in one another. This is
                                        > > > why there are so many different
                                        > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                        > > > and wrong.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                        > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                        > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                        > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                        > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                        > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                        > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > There are major flaws with all
                                        > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                        > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                        > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                        > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                        > > > validation is that these various
                                        > > > people in history/myth that the
                                        > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                        > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                        > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                        > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                        > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                        > > > have given them credibility, because
                                        > > > it is believed and taught that
                                        > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                        > > > have been the source for their
                                        > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                        > > > today, who are not even followers
                                        > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                        > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                        > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                        > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                        > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                        > > > Many of these people inspired
                                        > > > others by never giving up in time
                                        > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                        > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                        > > > Even those who did give up and
                                        > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                        > > > maintained their faith and this
                                        > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                        > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                        > > > for religions there are an awful
                                        > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                        > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                        > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                        > > > with unconditional love for the
                                        > > > master and you get a submissive
                                        > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                        > > > Buyer beware!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                        > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                        > > > an experiment to see if we
                                        > > > are all capable of evolving
                                        > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                        > > > Are we to become more than
                                        > > > merely a divine thought?
                                        > > > Maybe there is something
                                        > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                        > > > analogy."
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                        > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                        > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                        > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                        > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                        > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                        > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                        > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                        > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                        > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                        > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                        > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                        > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                        > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                        > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                        > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                        > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                        > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                        > > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I AM
                                        > > >
                                        > > > prometheus wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Hello Non and All,
                                        > > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                        > > > > summary. I was exploring
                                        > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                        > > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                        > > > > and saw a reference to a
                                        > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > This person is mentioned
                                        > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                        > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                        > > > > Faith.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Even when God seems to
                                        > > > > turn his back and: causes
                                        > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                        > > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                        > > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                        > > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                        > > > > and killed, one is to have
                                        > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                        > > > > reward for keeping this
                                        > > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                        > > > > you to believe in him
                                        > > > > regardless of what pain
                                        > > > > he allows to befall you.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > One needs to project
                                        > > > > a sense of hope in order
                                        > > > > to better endure life, as
                                        > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                        > > > > challenges when you believe
                                        > > > > that God is on your side and
                                        > > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > However, does God really
                                        > > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                        > > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                        > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                        > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                        > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                        > > > > Are we to become more than
                                        > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                        > > > > Maybe there is something
                                        > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                        > > > > analogy.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                        > > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                        > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                        > > > > deserved the punishments as
                                        > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                        > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                        > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                        > > > > most religions see everyday
                                        > > > > living and hardships as a test
                                        > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                        > > > > to donate money to support
                                        > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                        > > > > says and promises the same
                                        > > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                        > > > > hereafter.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                        > > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                        > > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                        > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                        > > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                        > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                        > > > > admit.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Well, got to go now....
                                        > > > > I just had some thoughts
                                        > > > > to share.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Prometheus
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > "Non" wrote:
                                        > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                        > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                        > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                        > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                        > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                        > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                        > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                        > > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                        > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                        > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                        > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                        > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                        > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                        > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                        > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                        > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                        > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                        > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                        > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                        > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                        > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Non ;)
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > prometheus wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Hello Janice,
                                        > > > > Yes, one would think that
                                        > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                        > > > > would, at least, attempt
                                        > > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                        > > > > that's not the case with
                                        > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                        > > > > out there by demonstrating
                                        > > > > his powers? It's not like
                                        > > > > he announced to the
                                        > > > > whole world that he was....
                                        > > > > oh wait, he did!
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > That was a long time ago
                                        > > > > and he never did make
                                        > > > > any predictions as most
                                        > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                        > > > > made some predictions.
                                        > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                        > > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                        > > > > mine and that's why he
                                        > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                        > > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                        > > > > as a real prophet.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                        > > > > cautious of being too
                                        > > > > direct and understood.
                                        > > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                        > > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                        > > > > imagine what they want,
                                        > > > > need and expect until
                                        > > > > they go too far and have
                                        > > > > to have a behaviour
                                        > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                        > > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                        > > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                        > > > > perspective when he tells
                                        > > > > a story.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                        > > > > why put too much
                                        > > > > effort into it! And, he
                                        > > > > figures that all he needs
                                        > > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                        > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                        > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                        > > > > will substitute Soul for
                                        > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > It's really quite amazing
                                        > > > > how simple Klemp's
                                        > > > > redundant message is.
                                        > > > > If EKists would just compare
                                        > > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                        > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                        > > > > leaders one would have
                                        > > > > to wonder what they see
                                        > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                        > > > > but they just laugh at his
                                        > > > > quirkiness because he's
                                        > > > > operating on so many
                                        > > > > high planes of consciousness
                                        > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                        > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                        > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                        > > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                        > > > > park with the current Dali
                                        > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                        > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                        > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                        > > > > religion while Eckankar
                                        > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                        > > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                        > > > > the two leaders and how
                                        > > > > they present themselves
                                        > > > > and what they have to say.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Will ECKists make the
                                        > > > > comparison? No, of course
                                        > > > > not! They won't even allow
                                        > > > > the door to be opened a
                                        > > > > crack because some light
                                        > > > > might get in and show
                                        > > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                        > > > > handle the Truth and
                                        > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                        > > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                        > > > > what would they replace
                                        > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                        > > > > responsibility to think for
                                        > > > > oneself and exercise free
                                        > > > > will. And, it would make
                                        > > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                        > > > > of those EK friends.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Prometheus
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                        > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                        > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                        > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                        > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                        > > > > charlatan to me.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The December 2012
                                        > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                        > > > > in the Ask the Master
                                        > > > > section are two interesting
                                        > > > > questions and answers.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The first question has
                                        > > > > to do with Stress and
                                        > > > > how to overcome it.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                        > > > > washy at best. He says
                                        > > > > that stress is "very
                                        > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                        > > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                        > > > > that people can increase
                                        > > > > their tolerance to stress
                                        > > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                        > > > > enough sleep, and by
                                        > > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                        > > > > of electronic devices."
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > In other words it seems
                                        > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                        > > > > roundabout way, to use
                                        > > > > moderation. After all,
                                        > > > > he's saying to reduce
                                        > > > > "overuse."
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Then, again, how does
                                        > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                        > > > > not use their computer
                                        > > > > 8 hours a day?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The next question involves
                                        > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                        > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                        > > > > boy and two days later his
                                        > > > > mother translated (died).
                                        > > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                        > > > > new baby was his mother.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                        > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                        > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                        > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                        > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                        > > > > anything at all can happen...
                                        > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                        > > > > son, everything is in accord
                                        > > > > with what is best for all around."
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Prometheus
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • prometheus_973
                                        Hello Non and All, Actually, having good interactive relationships with other people isn t necessarily about making new friends nor having the same religious,
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
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                                          Hello Non and All,
                                          Actually, having good
                                          interactive relationships
                                          with other people isn't
                                          necessarily about making
                                          new friends nor having
                                          the same religious, political,
                                          and lifestyle beliefs.
                                          Trying to get others
                                          to follow or accept our
                                          beliefs isn't the goal.

                                          It's more about being
                                          "friendly" to/with/for
                                          others and, thus, to
                                          ourselves. Usually, being
                                          friendly and promoting
                                          "friendship" (versus making
                                          friends) isn't that hard
                                          to accomplish. And, if
                                          it is, we need to make
                                          more of an effort and
                                          figure out what it is that's
                                          making this difficult.

                                          Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                          some small talk, and recognizing
                                          the other person by looking
                                          directly at them goes a
                                          long way.

                                          We can have a friendship
                                          (i.e. relationship) with a
                                          clerk whose full name we
                                          might not ever know. It's
                                          fun to simply, and naturally,
                                          smile and be friendly to
                                          strangers and acquaintances
                                          without expecting anything
                                          else. It takes the pressure
                                          off everyone when we keep
                                          it light. This lightness of
                                          Being will help to improve
                                          our lives and that of others.

                                          It's true that we will never
                                          be able to be friendly with
                                          some people. And, we won't
                                          always be friends with those
                                          people we know now. Some
                                          people don't deserve our
                                          efforts and will never deserve
                                          it. They are enemies to what
                                          we believe in.

                                          And, not all relationships
                                          work out nor need to be
                                          continued for the sake of
                                          all those involved. Sometimes
                                          people just have to let go
                                          and move on even with
                                          family members. But, these
                                          are usually relationships
                                          that have become complicated
                                          via various factors and are
                                          usually more one-sided
                                          due to a lack of communication,
                                          closed mindedness and
                                          hurt feelings.

                                          Our positive relationships
                                          with nature, to animals,
                                          and to other people are
                                          connections that make our
                                          lives worth living.


                                          Prometheus





                                          "Non" wrote:
                                          Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                          to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                          done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                          friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                          challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                          as far as religion may be growing. :)

                                          Non ;)

                                          "Non" wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                          teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                          lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                          possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                          inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                          act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                          In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                          otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                          even a twisted moral imperative.
                                          >
                                          > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                          direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                          point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                          like a small intervention.
                                          >
                                          > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                          situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                          and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                          outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                          at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                          and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                          heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                          >
                                          > Non ;)
                                          >
                                          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          > >
                                          Hi I am,
                                          It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                          we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                          So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                          possible and let them go on their way.
                                          Thanks for your comments.
                                          > >
                                          I AM wrote:
                                          > >
                                          Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                          regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                          meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                          > >
                                          > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                          sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                          point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                          > >
                                          > > I AM
                                          > >
                                          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                          it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                          there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                          talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                          happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                          something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                          people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                          people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                          came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                          appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                          is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                          about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                          good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                          > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                          doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                          still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                          willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                          motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                          of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                          everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                          by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                          strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                          broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                          takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                          the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                          After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                          > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                          hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                          admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                          sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                          knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                          have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                          even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                          heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                          rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                          Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                          others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                          pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                          that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                          use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                          tonight.
                                          > > >

                                          prometheus wrote:
                                          > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                          > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                          > > > will ever become like, God,
                                          > > > our imagined or possible
                                          > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                          > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But, it could be that the
                                          > > > universe(s) just happened
                                          > > > and that the remnants of
                                          > > > other life forms were spread
                                          > > > to this planet, and others,
                                          > > > via space rubble... from
                                          > > > destroyed civilizations
                                          > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                          > > > intentional seeding by an
                                          > > > advanced race... which was,
                                          > > > itself, seeded by another
                                          > > > advanced race etc.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                          > > > experiences we have
                                          > > > are the result of
                                          > > > interaction with the
                                          > > > quantum mechanical
                                          > > > field?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                          > > > that what really matters
                                          > > > are relationships. It's our
                                          > > > relationships with others,
                                          > > > even strangers, that matter
                                          > > > most. This is how we really
                                          > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                          > > > relationships are valuable.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Klemp, and others like
                                          > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                          > > > have arrested development;
                                          > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                          > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                          > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                          > > > or caring about others (are
                                          > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                          > > > impede social progress and
                                          > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                          > > > us for their own personal
                                          > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                          > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                          > > > created can make life interesting
                                          > > > and a challenge, although,
                                          > > > it can/will also be physically
                                          > > > and emotionally painful.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But, having a regular life
                                          > > > without additional commitments
                                          > > > and involvements can also
                                          > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                          > > > and insights. We are never
                                          > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                          > > > not sure how peace of any
                                          > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                          > > > will ever happen in a world
                                          > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > One must care about everyone
                                          > > > and have caring relationships
                                          > > > with people in order for humankind
                                          > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                          > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                          > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                          > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                          > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                          > > > too.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > How can one really "care" about
                                          > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                          > > > except to keep them away from
                                          > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                          > > > people.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > When one thinks about it the
                                          > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                          > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                          > > > seem to be more pathological
                                          > > > than the introverts don't you
                                          > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                          > > > to force us introverts to become
                                          > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                          > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                          > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                          > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                          > > > is more intimidating.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                          > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                          > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                          > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                          > > > lives because of the differences
                                          > > > we see in one another. This is
                                          > > > why there are so many different
                                          > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                          > > > and wrong.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                          > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                          > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                          > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                          > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                          > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                          > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > There are major flaws with all
                                          > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                          > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                          > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                          > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                          > > > validation is that these various
                                          > > > people in history/myth that the
                                          > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                          > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                          > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                          > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                          > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                          > > > have given them credibility, because
                                          > > > it is believed and taught that
                                          > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                          > > > have been the source for their
                                          > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                          > > > today, who are not even followers
                                          > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                          > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                          > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                          > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                          > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                          > > > Many of these people inspired
                                          > > > others by never giving up in time
                                          > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                          > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                          > > > Even those who did give up and
                                          > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                          > > > maintained their faith and this
                                          > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                          > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                          > > > for religions there are an awful
                                          > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                          > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                          > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                          > > > with unconditional love for the
                                          > > > master and you get a submissive
                                          > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                          > > > Buyer beware!
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                          > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                          > > > an experiment to see if we
                                          > > > are all capable of evolving
                                          > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                          > > > Are we to become more than
                                          > > > merely a divine thought?
                                          > > > Maybe there is something
                                          > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                          > > > analogy."
                                        • Non
                                          Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
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                                            Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
                                            probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
                                            other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
                                            doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.

                                            Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
                                            a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
                                            Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
                                            strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
                                            (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
                                            highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
                                            your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.

                                            Non ;)

                                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hello Non and All,
                                            > Actually, having good
                                            > interactive relationships
                                            > with other people isn't
                                            > necessarily about making
                                            > new friends nor having
                                            > the same religious, political,
                                            > and lifestyle beliefs.
                                            > Trying to get others
                                            > to follow or accept our
                                            > beliefs isn't the goal.
                                            >
                                            > It's more about being
                                            > "friendly" to/with/for
                                            > others and, thus, to
                                            > ourselves. Usually, being
                                            > friendly and promoting
                                            > "friendship" (versus making
                                            > friends) isn't that hard
                                            > to accomplish. And, if
                                            > it is, we need to make
                                            > more of an effort and
                                            > figure out what it is that's
                                            > making this difficult.
                                            >
                                            > Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                            > some small talk, and recognizing
                                            > the other person by looking
                                            > directly at them goes a
                                            > long way.
                                            >
                                            > We can have a friendship
                                            > (i.e. relationship) with a
                                            > clerk whose full name we
                                            > might not ever know. It's
                                            > fun to simply, and naturally,
                                            > smile and be friendly to
                                            > strangers and acquaintances
                                            > without expecting anything
                                            > else. It takes the pressure
                                            > off everyone when we keep
                                            > it light. This lightness of
                                            > Being will help to improve
                                            > our lives and that of others.
                                            >
                                            > It's true that we will never
                                            > be able to be friendly with
                                            > some people. And, we won't
                                            > always be friends with those
                                            > people we know now. Some
                                            > people don't deserve our
                                            > efforts and will never deserve
                                            > it. They are enemies to what
                                            > we believe in.
                                            >
                                            > And, not all relationships
                                            > work out nor need to be
                                            > continued for the sake of
                                            > all those involved. Sometimes
                                            > people just have to let go
                                            > and move on even with
                                            > family members. But, these
                                            > are usually relationships
                                            > that have become complicated
                                            > via various factors and are
                                            > usually more one-sided
                                            > due to a lack of communication,
                                            > closed mindedness and
                                            > hurt feelings.
                                            >
                                            > Our positive relationships
                                            > with nature, to animals,
                                            > and to other people are
                                            > connections that make our
                                            > lives worth living.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > "Non" wrote:
                                            > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                            > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                            > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                            > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                            > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                            > as far as religion may be growing. :)
                                            >
                                            > Non ;)
                                            >
                                            > "Non" wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                            > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                            > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                            > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                            > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                            > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                            > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                            > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                            > even a twisted moral imperative.
                                            > >
                                            > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                            > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                            > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                            > like a small intervention.
                                            > >
                                            > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                            > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                            > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                            > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                            > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                            > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                            > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                            > >
                                            > > Non ;)
                                            > >
                                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > Hi I am,
                                            > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                            > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                            > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                            > possible and let them go on their way.
                                            > Thanks for your comments.
                                            > > >
                                            > I AM wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                            > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                            > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                            > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                            > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I AM
                                            > > >
                                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                            > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                            > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                            > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                            > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                            > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                            > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                            > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                            > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                            > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                            > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                            > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                            > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                            > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                            > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                            > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                            > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                            > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                            > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                            > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                            > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                            > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                            > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                            > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                            > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                            > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                            > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                            > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                            > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                            > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                            > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                            > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                            > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                            > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                            > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                            > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                            > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                            > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                            > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                            > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                            > tonight.
                                            > > > >
                                            >
                                            > prometheus wrote:
                                            > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                            > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                            > > > > will ever become like, God,
                                            > > > > our imagined or possible
                                            > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                            > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > But, it could be that the
                                            > > > > universe(s) just happened
                                            > > > > and that the remnants of
                                            > > > > other life forms were spread
                                            > > > > to this planet, and others,
                                            > > > > via space rubble... from
                                            > > > > destroyed civilizations
                                            > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                            > > > > intentional seeding by an
                                            > > > > advanced race... which was,
                                            > > > > itself, seeded by another
                                            > > > > advanced race etc.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                            > > > > experiences we have
                                            > > > > are the result of
                                            > > > > interaction with the
                                            > > > > quantum mechanical
                                            > > > > field?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                            > > > > that what really matters
                                            > > > > are relationships. It's our
                                            > > > > relationships with others,
                                            > > > > even strangers, that matter
                                            > > > > most. This is how we really
                                            > > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                            > > > > relationships are valuable.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Klemp, and others like
                                            > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                            > > > > have arrested development;
                                            > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                            > > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                            > > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                            > > > > or caring about others (are
                                            > > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                            > > > > impede social progress and
                                            > > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                            > > > > us for their own personal
                                            > > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                            > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                            > > > > created can make life interesting
                                            > > > > and a challenge, although,
                                            > > > > it can/will also be physically
                                            > > > > and emotionally painful.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > But, having a regular life
                                            > > > > without additional commitments
                                            > > > > and involvements can also
                                            > > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                            > > > > and insights. We are never
                                            > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                            > > > > not sure how peace of any
                                            > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                            > > > > will ever happen in a world
                                            > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > One must care about everyone
                                            > > > > and have caring relationships
                                            > > > > with people in order for humankind
                                            > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                            > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                            > > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                            > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                            > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                            > > > > too.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > How can one really "care" about
                                            > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                            > > > > except to keep them away from
                                            > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                            > > > > people.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > When one thinks about it the
                                            > > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                            > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                            > > > > seem to be more pathological
                                            > > > > than the introverts don't you
                                            > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                            > > > > to force us introverts to become
                                            > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                            > > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                            > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                            > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                            > > > > is more intimidating.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                            > > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                            > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                            > > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                            > > > > lives because of the differences
                                            > > > > we see in one another. This is
                                            > > > > why there are so many different
                                            > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                            > > > > and wrong.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                            > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                            > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                            > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                            > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                            > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                            > > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > There are major flaws with all
                                            > > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                            > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                            > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                            > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                            > > > > validation is that these various
                                            > > > > people in history/myth that the
                                            > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                            > > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                            > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                            > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                            > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                            > > > > have given them credibility, because
                                            > > > > it is believed and taught that
                                            > > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                            > > > > have been the source for their
                                            > > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                            > > > > today, who are not even followers
                                            > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                            > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                            > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                            > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                            > > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                            > > > > Many of these people inspired
                                            > > > > others by never giving up in time
                                            > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                            > > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                            > > > > Even those who did give up and
                                            > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                            > > > > maintained their faith and this
                                            > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                            > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                            > > > > for religions there are an awful
                                            > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                            > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Prometheus
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                            > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                            > > > > with unconditional love for the
                                            > > > > master and you get a submissive
                                            > > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                            > > > > Buyer beware!
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                            > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                            > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                            > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                            > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                            > > > > Are we to become more than
                                            > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                            > > > > Maybe there is something
                                            > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                            > > > > analogy."
                                            >
                                          • prometheus_973
                                            Really! This is a valid spiritual technique that, unlike those HK hands out and sells, actually works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 18, 2013
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                                              Really! This is a valid spiritual
                                              technique that, unlike those
                                              HK hands out and sells, actually
                                              works:

                                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo

                                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
                                              > probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
                                              > other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
                                              > doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.
                                              >
                                              > Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
                                              > a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
                                              > Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
                                              > strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
                                              > (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
                                              > highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
                                              > your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.
                                              >
                                              > Non ;)
                                              >
                                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hello Non and All,
                                              > > Actually, having good
                                              > > interactive relationships
                                              > > with other people isn't
                                              > > necessarily about making
                                              > > new friends nor having
                                              > > the same religious, political,
                                              > > and lifestyle beliefs.
                                              > > Trying to get others
                                              > > to follow or accept our
                                              > > beliefs isn't the goal.
                                              > >
                                              > > It's more about being
                                              > > "friendly" to/with/for
                                              > > others and, thus, to
                                              > > ourselves. Usually, being
                                              > > friendly and promoting
                                              > > "friendship" (versus making
                                              > > friends) isn't that hard
                                              > > to accomplish. And, if
                                              > > it is, we need to make
                                              > > more of an effort and
                                              > > figure out what it is that's
                                              > > making this difficult.
                                              > >
                                              > > Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                              > > some small talk, and recognizing
                                              > > the other person by looking
                                              > > directly at them goes a
                                              > > long way.
                                              > >
                                              > > We can have a friendship
                                              > > (i.e. relationship) with a
                                              > > clerk whose full name we
                                              > > might not ever know. It's
                                              > > fun to simply, and naturally,
                                              > > smile and be friendly to
                                              > > strangers and acquaintances
                                              > > without expecting anything
                                              > > else. It takes the pressure
                                              > > off everyone when we keep
                                              > > it light. This lightness of
                                              > > Being will help to improve
                                              > > our lives and that of others.
                                              > >
                                              > > It's true that we will never
                                              > > be able to be friendly with
                                              > > some people. And, we won't
                                              > > always be friends with those
                                              > > people we know now. Some
                                              > > people don't deserve our
                                              > > efforts and will never deserve
                                              > > it. They are enemies to what
                                              > > we believe in.
                                              > >
                                              > > And, not all relationships
                                              > > work out nor need to be
                                              > > continued for the sake of
                                              > > all those involved. Sometimes
                                              > > people just have to let go
                                              > > and move on even with
                                              > > family members. But, these
                                              > > are usually relationships
                                              > > that have become complicated
                                              > > via various factors and are
                                              > > usually more one-sided
                                              > > due to a lack of communication,
                                              > > closed mindedness and
                                              > > hurt feelings.
                                              > >
                                              > > Our positive relationships
                                              > > with nature, to animals,
                                              > > and to other people are
                                              > > connections that make our
                                              > > lives worth living.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Prometheus
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > "Non" wrote:
                                              > > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                              > > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                              > > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                              > > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                              > > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                              > > as far as religion may be growing. :)
                                              > >
                                              > > Non ;)
                                              > >
                                              > > "Non" wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                              > > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                              > > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                              > > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                              > > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                              > > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                              > > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                              > > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                              > > even a twisted moral imperative.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                              > > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                              > > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                              > > like a small intervention.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                              > > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                              > > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                              > > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                              > > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                              > > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                              > > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Non ;)
                                              > > >
                                              > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > Hi I am,
                                              > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                              > > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                              > > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                              > > possible and let them go on their way.
                                              > > Thanks for your comments.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > I AM wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                              > > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                              > > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                              > > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                              > > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > I AM
                                              > > > >
                                              > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                              > > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                              > > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                              > > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                              > > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                              > > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                              > > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                              > > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                              > > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                              > > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                              > > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                              > > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                              > > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                              > > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                              > > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                              > > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                              > > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                              > > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                              > > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                              > > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                              > > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                              > > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                              > > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                              > > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                              > > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                              > > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                              > > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                              > > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                              > > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                              > > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                              > > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                              > > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                              > > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                              > > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                              > > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                              > > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                              > > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                              > > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                              > > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                              > > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                              > > tonight.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > >
                                              > > prometheus wrote:
                                              > > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                              > > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                              > > > > > will ever become like, God,
                                              > > > > > our imagined or possible
                                              > > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                              > > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > But, it could be that the
                                              > > > > > universe(s) just happened
                                              > > > > > and that the remnants of
                                              > > > > > other life forms were spread
                                              > > > > > to this planet, and others,
                                              > > > > > via space rubble... from
                                              > > > > > destroyed civilizations
                                              > > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                              > > > > > intentional seeding by an
                                              > > > > > advanced race... which was,
                                              > > > > > itself, seeded by another
                                              > > > > > advanced race etc.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                              > > > > > experiences we have
                                              > > > > > are the result of
                                              > > > > > interaction with the
                                              > > > > > quantum mechanical
                                              > > > > > field?
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                              > > > > > that what really matters
                                              > > > > > are relationships. It's our
                                              > > > > > relationships with others,
                                              > > > > > even strangers, that matter
                                              > > > > > most. This is how we really
                                              > > > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                              > > > > > relationships are valuable.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Klemp, and others like
                                              > > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                              > > > > > have arrested development;
                                              > > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                              > > > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                              > > > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                              > > > > > or caring about others (are
                                              > > > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                              > > > > > impede social progress and
                                              > > > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                              > > > > > us for their own personal
                                              > > > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                              > > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                              > > > > > created can make life interesting
                                              > > > > > and a challenge, although,
                                              > > > > > it can/will also be physically
                                              > > > > > and emotionally painful.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > But, having a regular life
                                              > > > > > without additional commitments
                                              > > > > > and involvements can also
                                              > > > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                              > > > > > and insights. We are never
                                              > > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                              > > > > > not sure how peace of any
                                              > > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                              > > > > > will ever happen in a world
                                              > > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > One must care about everyone
                                              > > > > > and have caring relationships
                                              > > > > > with people in order for humankind
                                              > > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                              > > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                              > > > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                              > > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                              > > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                              > > > > > too.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > How can one really "care" about
                                              > > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                              > > > > > except to keep them away from
                                              > > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                              > > > > > people.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > When one thinks about it the
                                              > > > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                              > > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                              > > > > > seem to be more pathological
                                              > > > > > than the introverts don't you
                                              > > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                              > > > > > to force us introverts to become
                                              > > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                              > > > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                              > > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                              > > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                              > > > > > is more intimidating.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                              > > > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                              > > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                              > > > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                              > > > > > lives because of the differences
                                              > > > > > we see in one another. This is
                                              > > > > > why there are so many different
                                              > > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                              > > > > > and wrong.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                              > > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                              > > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                              > > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                              > > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                              > > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                              > > > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > There are major flaws with all
                                              > > > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                              > > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                              > > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                              > > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                              > > > > > validation is that these various
                                              > > > > > people in history/myth that the
                                              > > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                              > > > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                              > > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                              > > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                              > > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                              > > > > > have given them credibility, because
                                              > > > > > it is believed and taught that
                                              > > > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                              > > > > > have been the source for their
                                              > > > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                              > > > > > today, who are not even followers
                                              > > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                              > > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                              > > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                              > > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                              > > > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                              > > > > > Many of these people inspired
                                              > > > > > others by never giving up in time
                                              > > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                              > > > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                              > > > > > Even those who did give up and
                                              > > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                              > > > > > maintained their faith and this
                                              > > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                              > > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                              > > > > > for religions there are an awful
                                              > > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                              > > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Prometheus
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                              > > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                              > > > > > with unconditional love for the
                                              > > > > > master and you get a submissive
                                              > > > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                              > > > > > Buyer beware!
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                              > > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                              > > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                              > > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                              > > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                              > > > > > Are we to become more than
                                              > > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                              > > > > > Maybe there is something
                                              > > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                              > > > > > analogy."
                                              > >
                                              >
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