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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    Yep, You guys summed it up very well about what HK does.  Thanks for the info. ... From: iam999freedom Subject:
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
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      Yep, You guys summed it up very well about what HK does.  Thanks for the info.

      --- On Fri, 1/4/13, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

      From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, January 4, 2013, 1:45 AM

       
      Thats an interesting point about HK using Bait and Switch to get new members by promising "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
      Liberation" but then switching it up and demanding (suggesting) Mahanta Codependency. It would be interesting to see how many Eckists started off on the path with problems with their father. I know I did as well as many others that I know of. It is so easy to get swarmed up in this feel good promise of Self-Mastery while codependency is subtly being reinforced at every turn. Before you know it codependency along with the threats about leaving the path can take a heavy toll on someone with a strong urge for independence.

      BTW, I think if there is such a thing as a Mahanta then it is our OWN HIGHEST STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

      I AM

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
      >
      > Hello I AM and All,
      > Actually Klemp did cite some
      > studies and I Googled it myself
      > and saw that there is proof that
      > identical twins share similarities.
      > The mirrored behaviors could
      > be genetical with brain frequencies
      > and brain function being the
      > same due to a quantum mechanical
      > influence. I threw that last one
      > in on my own, but who knows?
      >
      > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
      > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
      > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
      > use the Lords of Karma ruse
      > which, BTW, is not solely owned
      > by Eckankar.
      >
      > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
      > to get new members by promising
      > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
      > Liberation" but then he switches
      > it up and demands (suggests)
      > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
      > Team participation in order to,
      > possibly, get promoted and receive
      > "Spiritual Rewards."
      >
      > It is funny that Klemp claims to
      > take "Free Will" away from Souls
      > who join Eckankar and follow him.
      > Does this mean that those Souls
      > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
      > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > iam999freedom wrote:
      > Hi Prometheus,
      > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
      > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
      > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
      > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
      > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
      > the environment.
      >
      > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
      > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
      > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
      >
      > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
      > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
      > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
      >
      > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
      > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
      > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
      > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
      >
      > I AM
      >
      > prometheus_973" wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello I Am,
      > > Okay, let me give it
      > > a shot and use some
      > > excerpts etc.
      > >
      > > HK's talking about
      > > psychological studies
      > > using identical twins
      > > (not conjoined) that
      > > were separated soon
      > > after birth. They grew
      > > up elsewhere and had
      > > different influences
      > > but dressed the same
      > > and had the same type
      > > of dog and gave the
      > > dog the same name etc.,
      > > etc.
      > >
      > > Thus, it seems that
      > > Free Will relies upon
      > > genetics (nature) more
      > > than it does upon nurture,
      > > although, HK says that
      > > Yogi Berra stated that
      > > "in theory, practice doesn't
      > > matter; in practice, it does."
      > >
      > > BTW- According to Klemp
      > > "The Lords of Karma have
      > > selected a body with the
      > > appropriate genes for each
      > > student."
      > >
      > > However, HK has somewhat
      > > contradicted what is in CH.
      > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
      > > that "the spiritual workers
      > > created man and placed
      > > within him a living imperishable
      > > Spirit, called Soul."
      > >
      > > There is no other mention
      > > of these "spiritual workers."
      > >
      > > Anywho-
      > >
      > > HK is so clever the way
      > > he'll twist a quote to add
      > > even more confusion to
      > > his message of absolute
      > > servitude and obedience.
      > >
      > > I counted HK using "But"
      > > four times. In an old H.I.
      > > Letter he said never to
      > > use "But" with one another
      > > and that it was a nail in
      > > the coffin of invention and
      > > took away from what was
      > > previously said.
      > >
      > > HK:
      > > "BUT they dug in their heels
      > > at the finding that such twins'
      > > IQs were nearly as similar as
      > > their heights."
      > >
      > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
      > > set. A kind owner may let it out
      > > into the room on occasion. BUT
      > > it is still in a house."
      > >
      > > "Researchers, too, can advance
      > > only to a fixed point in their studies
      > > of what elements make up a whole
      > > individual. BUT they do not have
      > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
      > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
      > >
      > > Funny that Klemp states that he
      > > holds "a magical key" to control
      > > others like a Black Magician would.
      > >
      > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
      > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
      > > must have the right kind and amount
      > > of daily experiences."
      > >
      > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
      > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
      > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
      > > the "right kind and amount of daily
      > > experiences."
      > >
      > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
      > > doesn't like science and psychologists
      > > since getting locked up in an asylum
      > > and having to "play-the-game" to
      > > be released early.
      > >
      > > HK states that "Real free will rests
      > > entirely on trusting the Master's
      > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
      > > many choices to make in all things
      > > human and divine."
      > >
      > > In other words do as I say not
      > > as I do and there is no such
      > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
      > > Does that kind sound like Cult
      > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
      > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
      > > that "He gives suggestions" and
      > > "seldom does he issue directives...
      > > True Free Will of an individual
      > > stands upon the Mahanta's
      > > guidance."
      > >
      > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
      > > as he speaks from experience:
      > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
      > > ingrained ideas about patterns
      > > against them. A subject thinks
      > > he has the quick mind and eyes
      > > to catch a Magician in an act,
      > > even while he is being unburdened
      > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
      > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
      > > played upon people by illusion."
      > >
      > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
      > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
      > > exercises," but write those snail-
      > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
      > > thinking and so I can use those
      > > stories for my next book.
      > >
      > >
      > > iam999freedom wrote:
      > > Hi Prometheus,
      > >
      > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
      > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
      > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
      > >
      > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
      > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
      > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
      > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
      > > different character than the other."
      > >
      > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
      > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
      > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
      > >
      > > I still have yet to receive a response.
      > >
      > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
      > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > > I AM
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > prometheus_wrote:
      > > >
      > > > The December 2012
      > > > Eckankar Mystic World
      > > > in the Ask the Master
      > > > section are two interesting
      > > > questions and answers.
      > > >
      > > > The first question has
      > > > to do with Stress and
      > > > how to overcome it.
      > > >
      > > > HK's answer is wishy-
      > > > washy at best. He says
      > > > that stress is "very
      > > > uncomfortable... Yet
      > > > stress is a good teacher."
      > > >
      > > > Klemp goes on to say
      > > > that people increase
      > > > their tolerance to stress
      > > > by eating healthy, getting
      > > > enough sleep, and by
      > > > "Reducing our overuse
      > > > of electronic devices."
      > > >
      > > > In other words it seems
      > > > Klemp is saying, in a
      > > > roundabout way, to use
      > > > moderation. After all,
      > > > he's saying to reduce
      > > > "overuse."
      > > >
      > > > Then, again, how does
      > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
      > > > not use their computer
      > > > 8 hours a day?
      > > >
      > > > The next question involves
      > > > reincarnation. This guy's
      > > > wife gave birth to a baby
      > > > boy and two days later his
      > > > mother translated (died).
      > > > He indirectly asked if this
      > > > new baby was his mother.
      > > >
      > > > Instead of giving this EKist
      > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
      > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
      > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
      > > > When it comes to rebirth,
      > > > anything at all can happen...
      > > > Whichever Soul is now your
      > > > son, everything is in accord
      > > > with what is best for all around."
      > > >
      > > > Prometheus
      > >
      >

    • prometheus_973
      Hello Janice, Yes, one would think that a Modern Day Prophet would, at least, attempt to live up to his PR, but that s not the case with Klemp. Why put
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
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        Hello Janice,
        Yes, one would think that
        a "Modern Day Prophet"
        would, at least, attempt
        to live up to his PR, but
        that's not the case with
        Klemp. Why put himself
        out there by demonstrating
        his powers? It's not like
        he announced to the
        whole world that he was....
        oh wait, he did!

        That was a long time ago
        and he never did make
        any predictions as most
        prophets do. Even Twit
        made some predictions.
        But, I'm sure that EKists
        haven't noticed and don't
        mine and that's why he
        doesn't feel any pressure
        to preform his responsibilities
        as a real prophet.

        Instead, Harold is very
        cautious of being too
        direct and understood.
        He'd rather have EKists
        fill-in the blanks and
        imagine what they want,
        need and expect until
        they go too far and have
        to have a behaviour
        adjustment by their RESA.
        That's why Klemp usually
        gives a very one dimensional
        perspective when he tells
        a story.

        Plus, Klemp's lazy so
        why put too much
        effort into it! And, he
        figures that all he needs
        to do is the KISS thing
        of Keeping It Simple (for)
        Stupid. Of course EKies
        will substitute Soul for
        Stupid but Stupid fits!

        It's really quite amazing
        how simple Klemp's
        redundant message is.
        If EKists would just compare
        Klemp's simple minded
        witticisms to other "spiritual"
        leaders one would have
        to wonder what they see
        in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
        but they just laugh at his
        quirkiness because he's
        operating on so many
        high planes of consciousness
        simultaneously. LOL!

        Just Google Kristamurti's
        quotes or the Dali Lama's.
        Klemp, the great Mahanta,
        isn't even in the same ball
        park with the current Dali
        Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
        (pg. 385) he claims that
        Buddhism is a 4th Plane
        religion while Eckankar
        is a 14th Plane Religion!
        But, EKists need to compare
        the two leaders and how
        they present themselves
        and what they have to say.

        Will ECKists make the
        comparison? No, of course
        not! They won't even allow
        the door to be opened a
        crack because some light
        might get in and show
        them the Truth. They can't
        handle the Truth and
        would rather remain ignorant.
        It's much easier, besides,
        what would they replace
        Eckankar with? It's too much
        responsibility to think for
        oneself and exercise free
        will. And, it would make
        life too lonely to lose all
        of those EK friends.

        Prometheus








        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a charlatan to me.


        Prometheus wrote:

        The December 2012
        Eckankar Mystic World
        in the Ask the Master
        section are two interesting
        questions and answers.

        The first question has
        to do with Stress and
        how to overcome it.

        HK's answer is wishy-
        washy at best. He says
        that stress is "very
        uncomfortable... Yet
        stress is a good teacher."

        Klemp goes on to say
        that people can increase
        their tolerance to stress
        by eating healthy, getting
        enough sleep, and by
        "Reducing our overuse
        of electronic devices."

        In other words it seems
        Klemp is saying, in a
        roundabout way, to use
        moderation. After all,
        he's saying to reduce
        "overuse."

        Then, again, how does
        a EK staffer at the ESC
        not use their computer
        8 hours a day?

        The next question involves
        reincarnation. This guy's
        wife gave birth to a baby
        boy and two days later his
        mother translated (died).
        He indirectly asked if this
        new baby was his mother.

        Instead of giving this EKist
        a direct answer, Klemp,
        the wishy-washy Mahanta
        says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
        When it comes to rebirth,
        anything at all can happen...
        Whichever Soul is now your
        son, everything is in accord
        with what is best for all around."

        Prometheus
      • Non
        So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn t do his own spiritual exercises,
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 5, 2013
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          So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master etc.

          Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)

          They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.

          Non ;)

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
          >
          Hello Janice,
          Yes, one would think that
          a "Modern Day Prophet"
          would, at least, attempt
          to live up to his PR, but
          that's not the case with
          Klemp. Why put himself
          out there by demonstrating
          his powers? It's not like
          he announced to the
          whole world that he was....
          oh wait, he did!

          That was a long time ago
          and he never did make
          any predictions as most
          prophets do. Even Twit
          made some predictions.
          But, I'm sure that EKists
          haven't noticed and don't
          mine and that's why he
          doesn't feel any pressure
          to preform his responsibilities
          as a real prophet.

          Instead, Harold is very
          cautious of being too
          direct and understood.
          He'd rather have EKists
          fill-in the blanks and
          imagine what they want,
          need and expect until
          they go too far and have
          to have a behaviour
          adjustment by their RESA.
          That's why Klemp usually
          gives a very one dimensional
          perspective when he tells
          a story.

          Plus, Klemp's lazy so
          why put too much
          effort into it! And, he
          figures that all he needs
          to do is the KISS thing
          of Keeping It Simple (for)
          Stupid. Of course EKies
          will substitute Soul for
          Stupid but Stupid fits!

          It's really quite amazing
          how simple Klemp's
          redundant message is.
          If EKists would just compare
          Klemp's simple minded
          witticisms to other "spiritual"
          leaders one would have
          to wonder what they see
          in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
          but they just laugh at his
          quirkiness because he's
          operating on so many
          high planes of consciousness
          simultaneously. LOL!

          Just Google Kristamurti's
          quotes or the Dali Lama's.
          Klemp, the great Mahanta,
          isn't even in the same ball
          park with the current Dali
          Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
          (pg. 385) he claims that
          Buddhism is a 4th Plane
          religion while Eckankar
          is a 14th Plane Religion!
          But, EKists need to compare
          the two leaders and how
          they present themselves
          and what they have to say.

          Will ECKists make the
          comparison? No, of course
          not! They won't even allow
          the door to be opened a
          crack because some light
          might get in and show
          them the Truth. They can't
          handle the Truth and
          would rather remain ignorant.
          It's much easier, besides,
          what would they replace
          Eckankar with? It's too much
          responsibility to think for
          oneself and exercise free
          will. And, it would make
          life too lonely to lose all
          of those EK friends.

          Prometheus








          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
          child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
          least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
          afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
          the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
          charlatan to me.


          Prometheus wrote:

          The December 2012
          Eckankar Mystic World
          in the Ask the Master
          section are two interesting
          questions and answers.

          The first question has
          to do with Stress and
          how to overcome it.

          HK's answer is wishy-
          washy at best. He says
          that stress is "very
          uncomfortable... Yet
          stress is a good teacher."

          Klemp goes on to say
          that people can increase
          their tolerance to stress
          by eating healthy, getting
          enough sleep, and by
          "Reducing our overuse
          of electronic devices."

          In other words it seems
          Klemp is saying, in a
          roundabout way, to use
          moderation. After all,
          he's saying to reduce
          "overuse."

          Then, again, how does
          a EK staffer at the ESC
          not use their computer
          8 hours a day?

          The next question involves
          reincarnation. This guy's
          wife gave birth to a baby
          boy and two days later his
          mother translated (died).
          He indirectly asked if this
          new baby was his mother.

          Instead of giving this EKist
          a direct answer, Klemp,
          the wishy-washy Mahanta
          says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
          When it comes to rebirth,
          anything at all can happen...
          Whichever Soul is now your
          son, everything is in accord
          with what is best for all around."

          Prometheus
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Non and All, Thanks for the insightful summary. I was exploring the dogma of some fundamentalist charismatic Christian churches and saw a reference to a
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
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            Hello Non and All,
            Thanks for the insightful
            summary. I was exploring
            the dogma of some fundamentalist
            charismatic Christian churches
            and saw a reference to a
            minor (Jewish) prophet:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk

            This person is mentioned
            not by Jesus but by one of
            his apostles in order to inspire
            Faith.

            Even when God seems to
            turn his back and: causes
            crops to fail; flocks to be
            lost; cities attacked and
            overrun by your enemies;
            people brutalized, tortured
            and killed, one is to have
            Faith in God and a hereafter
            reward for keeping this
            faith. God's ego needs
            you to believe in him
            regardless of what pain
            he allows to befall you.

            One needs to project
            a sense of hope in order
            to better endure life, as
            it is, no matter how bad.

            And, it's easier to face these
            challenges when you believe
            that God is on your side and
            not that of your oppressor.

            However, does God really
            take sides? It seems that God
            is/was created in man's image.

            All of this, it seems, is simply
            an experiment to see if we
            are all capable of evolving
            into our "spiritual" potential.
            Are we to become more than
            merely a divine thought?
            Maybe there is something
            more to that piece of a mirror
            analogy.

            Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
            has the belief that you (and your
            fellow believers or countrymen)
            deserved the punishments as
            repayment for sin. Some call it
            Karma or cause and effect, or
            what you sow you reap. Plus,
            most religions see everyday
            living and hardships as a test
            of faith. Yet, one is supposed
            to donate money to support
            the specific dogma that, basically,
            says and promises the same
            or similar things in the imagined
            hereafter.

            Plus, each religion has always
            blamed the non-believers for
            the sins that they suffer under
            as well. Eckankar is no different
            and Klemp is more like these
            preachers than EKists could ever
            admit.

            Well, got to go now....
            I just had some thoughts
            to share.

            Prometheus

            "Non" wrote:
            So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
            compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises,
            because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe
            a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
            material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
            "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
            and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
            crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master
            etc.

            Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new
            World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
            anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
            admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
            always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet
            in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
            stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck
            master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
            is a more appropriate title to his life story.)

            They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
            think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
            advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on
            the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
            drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it
            is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.

            Non ;)

            prometheus wrote:

            Hello Janice,
            Yes, one would think that
            a "Modern Day Prophet"
            would, at least, attempt
            to live up to his PR, but
            that's not the case with
            Klemp. Why put himself
            out there by demonstrating
            his powers? It's not like
            he announced to the
            whole world that he was....
            oh wait, he did!

            That was a long time ago
            and he never did make
            any predictions as most
            prophets do. Even Twit
            made some predictions.
            But, I'm sure that EKists
            haven't noticed and don't
            mine and that's why he
            doesn't feel any pressure
            to preform his responsibilities
            as a real prophet.

            Instead, Harold is very
            cautious of being too
            direct and understood.
            He'd rather have EKists
            fill-in the blanks and
            imagine what they want,
            need and expect until
            they go too far and have
            to have a behaviour
            adjustment by their RESA.
            That's why Klemp usually
            gives a very one dimensional
            perspective when he tells
            a story.

            Plus, Klemp's lazy so
            why put too much
            effort into it! And, he
            figures that all he needs
            to do is the KISS thing
            of Keeping It Simple (for)
            Stupid. Of course EKies
            will substitute Soul for
            Stupid but Stupid fits!

            It's really quite amazing
            how simple Klemp's
            redundant message is.
            If EKists would just compare
            Klemp's simple minded
            witticisms to other "spiritual"
            leaders one would have
            to wonder what they see
            in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
            but they just laugh at his
            quirkiness because he's
            operating on so many
            high planes of consciousness
            simultaneously. LOL!

            Just Google Kristamurti's
            quotes or the Dali Lama's.
            Klemp, the great Mahanta,
            isn't even in the same ball
            park with the current Dali
            Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
            (pg. 385) he claims that
            Buddhism is a 4th Plane
            religion while Eckankar
            is a 14th Plane Religion!
            But, EKists need to compare
            the two leaders and how
            they present themselves
            and what they have to say.

            Will ECKists make the
            comparison? No, of course
            not! They won't even allow
            the door to be opened a
            crack because some light
            might get in and show
            them the Truth. They can't
            handle the Truth and
            would rather remain ignorant.
            It's much easier, besides,
            what would they replace
            Eckankar with? It's too much
            responsibility to think for
            oneself and exercise free
            will. And, it would make
            life too lonely to lose all
            of those EK friends.

            Prometheus


            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
            child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
            least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
            afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
            the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
            charlatan to me.


            Prometheus wrote:

            The December 2012
            Eckankar Mystic World
            in the Ask the Master
            section are two interesting
            questions and answers.

            The first question has
            to do with Stress and
            how to overcome it.

            HK's answer is wishy-
            washy at best. He says
            that stress is "very
            uncomfortable... Yet
            stress is a good teacher."

            Klemp goes on to say
            that people can increase
            their tolerance to stress
            by eating healthy, getting
            enough sleep, and by
            "Reducing our overuse
            of electronic devices."

            In other words it seems
            Klemp is saying, in a
            roundabout way, to use
            moderation. After all,
            he's saying to reduce
            "overuse."

            Then, again, how does
            a EK staffer at the ESC
            not use their computer
            8 hours a day?

            The next question involves
            reincarnation. This guy's
            wife gave birth to a baby
            boy and two days later his
            mother translated (died).
            He indirectly asked if this
            new baby was his mother.

            Instead of giving this EKist
            a direct answer, Klemp,
            the wishy-washy Mahanta
            says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
            When it comes to rebirth,
            anything at all can happen...
            Whichever Soul is now your
            son, everything is in accord
            with what is best for all around."

            Prometheus
          • iam999freedom
            Yes Non, combine authoritarianism with unconditional love for the master and you get a submissive control pattern as your reward. Buyer beware! Prometheus, you
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Yes Non, combine authoritarianism with unconditional love for the master and you get a submissive control pattern as your reward. Buyer beware!

              Prometheus, you wrote:
              "All of this, it seems, is simply
              an experiment to see if we
              are all capable of evolving
              into our "spiritual" potential.
              Are we to become more than
              merely a divine thought?
              Maybe there is something
              more to that piece of a mirror
              analogy."

              I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again. I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the end result of the mirror analagy.

              I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

              I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event. Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more meaning than being in a pinball machine.

              Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

              Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think that it would ever be necessary.

              Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

              I AM

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
              >
              > Hello Non and All,
              > Thanks for the insightful
              > summary. I was exploring
              > the dogma of some fundamentalist
              > charismatic Christian churches
              > and saw a reference to a
              > minor (Jewish) prophet:
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
              >
              > This person is mentioned
              > not by Jesus but by one of
              > his apostles in order to inspire
              > Faith.
              >
              > Even when God seems to
              > turn his back and: causes
              > crops to fail; flocks to be
              > lost; cities attacked and
              > overrun by your enemies;
              > people brutalized, tortured
              > and killed, one is to have
              > Faith in God and a hereafter
              > reward for keeping this
              > faith. God's ego needs
              > you to believe in him
              > regardless of what pain
              > he allows to befall you.
              >
              > One needs to project
              > a sense of hope in order
              > to better endure life, as
              > it is, no matter how bad.
              >
              > And, it's easier to face these
              > challenges when you believe
              > that God is on your side and
              > not that of your oppressor.
              >
              > However, does God really
              > take sides? It seems that God
              > is/was created in man's image.
              >
              > All of this, it seems, is simply
              > an experiment to see if we
              > are all capable of evolving
              > into our "spiritual" potential.
              > Are we to become more than
              > merely a divine thought?
              > Maybe there is something
              > more to that piece of a mirror
              > analogy.
              >
              > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
              > has the belief that you (and your
              > fellow believers or countrymen)
              > deserved the punishments as
              > repayment for sin. Some call it
              > Karma or cause and effect, or
              > what you sow you reap. Plus,
              > most religions see everyday
              > living and hardships as a test
              > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
              > to donate money to support
              > the specific dogma that, basically,
              > says and promises the same
              > or similar things in the imagined
              > hereafter.
              >
              > Plus, each religion has always
              > blamed the non-believers for
              > the sins that they suffer under
              > as well. Eckankar is no different
              > and Klemp is more like these
              > preachers than EKists could ever
              > admit.
              >
              > Well, got to go now....
              > I just had some thoughts
              > to share.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > "Non" wrote:
              > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
              > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises,
              > because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe
              > a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
              > material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
              > "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
              > and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
              > crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master
              > etc.
              >
              > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new
              > World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
              > anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
              > admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
              > always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet
              > in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
              > stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck
              > master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
              > is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
              >
              > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
              > think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
              > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on
              > the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
              > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it
              > is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
              >
              > Non ;)
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello Janice,
              > Yes, one would think that
              > a "Modern Day Prophet"
              > would, at least, attempt
              > to live up to his PR, but
              > that's not the case with
              > Klemp. Why put himself
              > out there by demonstrating
              > his powers? It's not like
              > he announced to the
              > whole world that he was....
              > oh wait, he did!
              >
              > That was a long time ago
              > and he never did make
              > any predictions as most
              > prophets do. Even Twit
              > made some predictions.
              > But, I'm sure that EKists
              > haven't noticed and don't
              > mine and that's why he
              > doesn't feel any pressure
              > to preform his responsibilities
              > as a real prophet.
              >
              > Instead, Harold is very
              > cautious of being too
              > direct and understood.
              > He'd rather have EKists
              > fill-in the blanks and
              > imagine what they want,
              > need and expect until
              > they go too far and have
              > to have a behaviour
              > adjustment by their RESA.
              > That's why Klemp usually
              > gives a very one dimensional
              > perspective when he tells
              > a story.
              >
              > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
              > why put too much
              > effort into it! And, he
              > figures that all he needs
              > to do is the KISS thing
              > of Keeping It Simple (for)
              > Stupid. Of course EKies
              > will substitute Soul for
              > Stupid but Stupid fits!
              >
              > It's really quite amazing
              > how simple Klemp's
              > redundant message is.
              > If EKists would just compare
              > Klemp's simple minded
              > witticisms to other "spiritual"
              > leaders one would have
              > to wonder what they see
              > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
              > but they just laugh at his
              > quirkiness because he's
              > operating on so many
              > high planes of consciousness
              > simultaneously. LOL!
              >
              > Just Google Kristamurti's
              > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
              > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
              > isn't even in the same ball
              > park with the current Dali
              > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
              > (pg. 385) he claims that
              > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
              > religion while Eckankar
              > is a 14th Plane Religion!
              > But, EKists need to compare
              > the two leaders and how
              > they present themselves
              > and what they have to say.
              >
              > Will ECKists make the
              > comparison? No, of course
              > not! They won't even allow
              > the door to be opened a
              > crack because some light
              > might get in and show
              > them the Truth. They can't
              > handle the Truth and
              > would rather remain ignorant.
              > It's much easier, besides,
              > what would they replace
              > Eckankar with? It's too much
              > responsibility to think for
              > oneself and exercise free
              > will. And, it would make
              > life too lonely to lose all
              > of those EK friends.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
              > child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
              > least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
              > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
              > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
              > charlatan to me.
              >
              >
              > Prometheus wrote:
              >
              > The December 2012
              > Eckankar Mystic World
              > in the Ask the Master
              > section are two interesting
              > questions and answers.
              >
              > The first question has
              > to do with Stress and
              > how to overcome it.
              >
              > HK's answer is wishy-
              > washy at best. He says
              > that stress is "very
              > uncomfortable... Yet
              > stress is a good teacher."
              >
              > Klemp goes on to say
              > that people can increase
              > their tolerance to stress
              > by eating healthy, getting
              > enough sleep, and by
              > "Reducing our overuse
              > of electronic devices."
              >
              > In other words it seems
              > Klemp is saying, in a
              > roundabout way, to use
              > moderation. After all,
              > he's saying to reduce
              > "overuse."
              >
              > Then, again, how does
              > a EK staffer at the ESC
              > not use their computer
              > 8 hours a day?
              >
              > The next question involves
              > reincarnation. This guy's
              > wife gave birth to a baby
              > boy and two days later his
              > mother translated (died).
              > He indirectly asked if this
              > new baby was his mother.
              >
              > Instead of giving this EKist
              > a direct answer, Klemp,
              > the wishy-washy Mahanta
              > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
              > When it comes to rebirth,
              > anything at all can happen...
              > Whichever Soul is now your
              > son, everything is in accord
              > with what is best for all around."
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello I Am, Non, and All, I m not so sure that humans will ever become like, God, our imagined or possible creator. And, if at all, certainly not in any
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                I'm not so sure that humans
                will ever become like, God,
                our imagined or possible
                creator. And, if at all, certainly
                not in any lifetime soon.

                But, it could be that the
                universe(s) just happened
                and that the remnants of
                other life forms were spread
                to this planet, and others,
                via space rubble... from
                destroyed civilizations
                and planets. Or, was it an
                intentional seeding by an
                advanced race... which was,
                itself, seeded by another
                advanced race etc.

                Maybe the "spiritual"
                experiences we have
                are the result of
                interaction with the
                quantum mechanical
                field?

                Anyway, it seems to me
                that what really matters
                are relationships. It's our
                relationships with others,
                even strangers, that matter
                most. This is how we really
                learn and grow. Loving
                relationships are valuable.

                Klemp, and others like
                him, are: liars; posers;
                have arrested development;
                are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                and are even psychopathic.
                They are incapable of learning,
                or caring about others (are
                unloving) and attempt to
                impede social progress and
                justice. They use the rest of
                us for their own personal
                greed and selfish desires.

                Then, again, this strife and
                uncertainly (stress) that is
                created can make life interesting
                and a challenge, although,
                it can/will also be physically
                and emotionally painful.

                But, having a regular life
                without additional commitments
                and involvements can also
                offer rewarding experiences
                and insights. We are never
                all that alone. However, I'm
                not sure how peace of any
                sort (except in one's own mind)
                will ever happen in a world
                controlled by sociopaths.

                One must care about everyone
                and have caring relationships
                with people in order for humankind
                to advance and survive. To me,
                this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                I almost included animals, too,
                but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                include "caring" about them (all)
                too.

                How can one really "care" about
                the sociopaths and psychopaths
                except to keep them away from
                nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                people.

                When one thinks about it the
                definition of what's "normal"
                keeps changing. The extroverts
                seem to be more pathological
                than the introverts don't you
                agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                to force us introverts to become
                extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                loves company I suppose or is
                it that an army of glassy-eyed
                introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                is more intimidating.

                In any case the idea of a "God"
                to worship and viewed as being
                "involved" in our lives detracts
                from "us" being involved in our
                lives because of the differences
                we see in one another. This is
                why there are so many different
                religious dogmas of what's right
                and wrong.

                Therefore, the differences in the
                way in which "God" is worshipped,
                for me, shows that "God" does not
                exist. We don't want to be alone
                nor take responsibility for our own
                actions. Thus, we blame God or
                use God as our scape goat.

                There are major flaws with all
                of these religions and the so-called
                "source" of their scriptures. It's
                all hearsay and the only thing
                that, supposedly, gives them
                validation is that these various
                people in history/myth that the
                scribes wrote about are claimed
                to have said or done some nice,
                inspirational, brave, or insightful
                things a very long time ago. Age/
                time (being ancient) seems to
                have given them credibility, because
                it is believed and taught that
                only Divine Intercession could
                have been the source for their
                Divine Inspiration.

                But, IMO, there are many people,
                today, who are not even followers
                of these dogmas that are as, or
                more: honest; brave; insightful;
                inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                than the prophets, saints, and founders
                of these major and minor religions.
                Many of these people inspired
                others by never giving up in time
                of conflict because, sometimes,
                there weren't many other choices.
                Even those who did give up and
                had bad things befall them, still,
                maintained their faith and this
                fact turned them into "prophets"
                or saints. If this is the standard
                for religions there are an awful
                lot of believers and faithful, today,
                that just as deluded and desperate.

                Prometheus


                iam999freedom" wrote:
                Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                with unconditional love for the
                master and you get a submissive
                control pattern as your reward.
                Buyer beware!

                Prometheus, you wrote:
                "All of this, it seems, is simply
                an experiment to see if we
                are all capable of evolving
                into our "spiritual" potential.
                Are we to become more than
                merely a divine thought?
                Maybe there is something
                more to that piece of a mirror
                analogy."

                I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                the end result of the mirror analagy.

                I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

                I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                meaning than being in a pinball machine.

                Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

                Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                that it would ever be necessary.

                Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

                I AM

                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello Non and All,
                > Thanks for the insightful
                > summary. I was exploring
                > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                > charismatic Christian churches
                > and saw a reference to a
                > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                >
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                >
                > This person is mentioned
                > not by Jesus but by one of
                > his apostles in order to inspire
                > Faith.
                >
                > Even when God seems to
                > turn his back and: causes
                > crops to fail; flocks to be
                > lost; cities attacked and
                > overrun by your enemies;
                > people brutalized, tortured
                > and killed, one is to have
                > Faith in God and a hereafter
                > reward for keeping this
                > faith. God's ego needs
                > you to believe in him
                > regardless of what pain
                > he allows to befall you.
                >
                > One needs to project
                > a sense of hope in order
                > to better endure life, as
                > it is, no matter how bad.
                >
                > And, it's easier to face these
                > challenges when you believe
                > that God is on your side and
                > not that of your oppressor.
                >
                > However, does God really
                > take sides? It seems that God
                > is/was created in man's image.
                >
                > All of this, it seems, is simply
                > an experiment to see if we
                > are all capable of evolving
                > into our "spiritual" potential.
                > Are we to become more than
                > merely a divine thought?
                > Maybe there is something
                > more to that piece of a mirror
                > analogy.
                >
                > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                > has the belief that you (and your
                > fellow believers or countrymen)
                > deserved the punishments as
                > repayment for sin. Some call it
                > Karma or cause and effect, or
                > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                > most religions see everyday
                > living and hardships as a test
                > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                > to donate money to support
                > the specific dogma that, basically,
                > says and promises the same
                > or similar things in the imagined
                > hereafter.
                >
                > Plus, each religion has always
                > blamed the non-believers for
                > the sins that they suffer under
                > as well. Eckankar is no different
                > and Klemp is more like these
                > preachers than EKists could ever
                > admit.
                >
                > Well, got to go now....
                > I just had some thoughts
                > to share.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                "Non" wrote:
                So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                answers to ask the master etc.
                >
                Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                >
                They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                >
                > Non ;)
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello Janice,
                > Yes, one would think that
                > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                > would, at least, attempt
                > to live up to his PR, but
                > that's not the case with
                > Klemp. Why put himself
                > out there by demonstrating
                > his powers? It's not like
                > he announced to the
                > whole world that he was....
                > oh wait, he did!
                >
                > That was a long time ago
                > and he never did make
                > any predictions as most
                > prophets do. Even Twit
                > made some predictions.
                > But, I'm sure that EKists
                > haven't noticed and don't
                > mine and that's why he
                > doesn't feel any pressure
                > to preform his responsibilities
                > as a real prophet.
                >
                > Instead, Harold is very
                > cautious of being too
                > direct and understood.
                > He'd rather have EKists
                > fill-in the blanks and
                > imagine what they want,
                > need and expect until
                > they go too far and have
                > to have a behaviour
                > adjustment by their RESA.
                > That's why Klemp usually
                > gives a very one dimensional
                > perspective when he tells
                > a story.
                >
                > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                > why put too much
                > effort into it! And, he
                > figures that all he needs
                > to do is the KISS thing
                > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                > Stupid. Of course EKies
                > will substitute Soul for
                > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                >
                > It's really quite amazing
                > how simple Klemp's
                > redundant message is.
                > If EKists would just compare
                > Klemp's simple minded
                > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                > leaders one would have
                > to wonder what they see
                > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                > but they just laugh at his
                > quirkiness because he's
                > operating on so many
                > high planes of consciousness
                > simultaneously. LOL!
                >
                > Just Google Kristamurti's
                > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                > isn't even in the same ball
                > park with the current Dali
                > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                > (pg. 385) he claims that
                > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                > religion while Eckankar
                > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                > But, EKists need to compare
                > the two leaders and how
                > they present themselves
                > and what they have to say.
                >
                > Will ECKists make the
                > comparison? No, of course
                > not! They won't even allow
                > the door to be opened a
                > crack because some light
                > might get in and show
                > them the Truth. They can't
                > handle the Truth and
                > would rather remain ignorant.
                > It's much easier, besides,
                > what would they replace
                > Eckankar with? It's too much
                > responsibility to think for
                > oneself and exercise free
                > will. And, it would make
                > life too lonely to lose all
                > of those EK friends.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                > charlatan to me.
                >
                >
                > Prometheus wrote:
                >
                > The December 2012
                > Eckankar Mystic World
                > in the Ask the Master
                > section are two interesting
                > questions and answers.
                >
                > The first question has
                > to do with Stress and
                > how to overcome it.
                >
                > HK's answer is wishy-
                > washy at best. He says
                > that stress is "very
                > uncomfortable... Yet
                > stress is a good teacher."
                >
                > Klemp goes on to say
                > that people can increase
                > their tolerance to stress
                > by eating healthy, getting
                > enough sleep, and by
                > "Reducing our overuse
                > of electronic devices."
                >
                > In other words it seems
                > Klemp is saying, in a
                > roundabout way, to use
                > moderation. After all,
                > he's saying to reduce
                > "overuse."
                >
                > Then, again, how does
                > a EK staffer at the ESC
                > not use their computer
                > 8 hours a day?
                >
                > The next question involves
                > reincarnation. This guy's
                > wife gave birth to a baby
                > boy and two days later his
                > mother translated (died).
                > He indirectly asked if this
                > new baby was his mother.
                >
                > Instead of giving this EKist
                > a direct answer, Klemp,
                > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                > When it comes to rebirth,
                > anything at all can happen...
                > Whichever Soul is now your
                > son, everything is in accord
                > with what is best for all around."
                >
                > Prometheus
              • Janice Pfeiffer
                Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                  Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 

                  --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM

                   
                  Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                  I'm not so sure that humans
                  will ever become like, God,
                  our imagined or possible
                  creator. And, if at all, certainly
                  not in any lifetime soon.

                  But, it could be that the
                  universe(s) just happened
                  and that the remnants of
                  other life forms were spread
                  to this planet, and others,
                  via space rubble... from
                  destroyed civilizations
                  and planets. Or, was it an
                  intentional seeding by an
                  advanced race... which was,
                  itself, seeded by another
                  advanced race etc.

                  Maybe the "spiritual"
                  experiences we have
                  are the result of
                  interaction with the
                  quantum mechanical
                  field?

                  Anyway, it seems to me
                  that what really matters
                  are relationships. It's our
                  relationships with others,
                  even strangers, that matter
                  most. This is how we really
                  learn and grow. Loving
                  relationships are valuable.

                  Klemp, and others like
                  him, are: liars; posers;
                  have arrested development;
                  are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                  and are even psychopathic.
                  They are incapable of learning,
                  or caring about others (are
                  unloving) and attempt to
                  impede social progress and
                  justice. They use the rest of
                  us for their own personal
                  greed and selfish desires.

                  Then, again, this strife and
                  uncertainly (stress) that is
                  created can make life interesting
                  and a challenge, although,
                  it can/will also be physically
                  and emotionally painful.

                  But, having a regular life
                  without additional commitments
                  and involvements can also
                  offer rewarding experiences
                  and insights. We are never
                  all that alone. However, I'm
                  not sure how peace of any
                  sort (except in one's own mind)
                  will ever happen in a world
                  controlled by sociopaths.

                  One must care about everyone
                  and have caring relationships
                  with people in order for humankind
                  to advance and survive. To me,
                  this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                  I almost included animals, too,
                  but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                  include "caring" about them (all)
                  too.

                  How can one really "care" about
                  the sociopaths and psychopaths
                  except to keep them away from
                  nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                  people.

                  When one thinks about it the
                  definition of what's "normal"
                  keeps changing. The extroverts
                  seem to be more pathological
                  than the introverts don't you
                  agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                  to force us introverts to become
                  extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                  loves company I suppose or is
                  it that an army of glassy-eyed
                  introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                  is more intimidating.

                  In any case the idea of a "God"
                  to worship and viewed as being
                  "involved" in our lives detracts
                  from "us" being involved in our
                  lives because of the differences
                  we see in one another. This is
                  why there are so many different
                  religious dogmas of what's right
                  and wrong.

                  Therefore, the differences in the
                  way in which "God" is worshipped,
                  for me, shows that "God" does not
                  exist. We don't want to be alone
                  nor take responsibility for our own
                  actions. Thus, we blame God or
                  use God as our scape goat.

                  There are major flaws with all
                  of these religions and the so-called
                  "source" of their scriptures. It's
                  all hearsay and the only thing
                  that, supposedly, gives them
                  validation is that these various
                  people in history/myth that the
                  scribes wrote about are claimed
                  to have said or done some nice,
                  inspirational, brave, or insightful
                  things a very long time ago. Age/
                  time (being ancient) seems to
                  have given them credibility, because
                  it is believed and taught that
                  only Divine Intercession could
                  have been the source for their
                  Divine Inspiration.

                  But, IMO, there are many people,
                  today, who are not even followers
                  of these dogmas that are as, or
                  more: honest; brave; insightful;
                  inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                  than the prophets, saints, and founders
                  of these major and minor religions.
                  Many of these people inspired
                  others by never giving up in time
                  of conflict because, sometimes,
                  there weren't many other choices.
                  Even those who did give up and
                  had bad things befall them, still,
                  maintained their faith and this
                  fact turned them into "prophets"
                  or saints. If this is the standard
                  for religions there are an awful
                  lot of believers and faithful, today,
                  that just as deluded and desperate.

                  Prometheus


                  iam999freedom" wrote:
                  Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                  with unconditional love for the
                  master and you get a submissive
                  control pattern as your reward.
                  Buyer beware!

                  Prometheus, you wrote:
                  "All of this, it seems, is simply
                  an experiment to see if we
                  are all capable of evolving
                  into our "spiritual" potential.
                  Are we to become more than
                  merely a divine thought?
                  Maybe there is something
                  more to that piece of a mirror
                  analogy."

                  I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                  shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                  I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                  stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                  the end result of the mirror analagy.

                  I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                  see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

                  I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                  or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                  Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                  has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                  lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                  from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                  meaning than being in a pinball machine.

                  Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                  spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                  lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                  and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                  needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                  would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                  It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

                  Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                  that it would ever be necessary.

                  Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

                  I AM

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Non and All,
                  > Thanks for the insightful
                  > summary. I was exploring
                  > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                  > charismatic Christian churches
                  > and saw a reference to a
                  > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                  >
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                  >
                  > This person is mentioned
                  > not by Jesus but by one of
                  > his apostles in order to inspire
                  > Faith.
                  >
                  > Even when God seems to
                  > turn his back and: causes
                  > crops to fail; flocks to be
                  > lost; cities attacked and
                  > overrun by your enemies;
                  > people brutalized, tortured
                  > and killed, one is to have
                  > Faith in God and a hereafter
                  > reward for keeping this
                  > faith. God's ego needs
                  > you to believe in him
                  > regardless of what pain
                  > he allows to befall you.
                  >
                  > One needs to project
                  > a sense of hope in order
                  > to better endure life, as
                  > it is, no matter how bad.
                  >
                  > And, it's easier to face these
                  > challenges when you believe
                  > that God is on your side and
                  > not that of your oppressor.
                  >
                  > However, does God really
                  > take sides? It seems that God
                  > is/was created in man's image.
                  >
                  > All of this, it seems, is simply
                  > an experiment to see if we
                  > are all capable of evolving
                  > into our "spiritual" potential.
                  > Are we to become more than
                  > merely a divine thought?
                  > Maybe there is something
                  > more to that piece of a mirror
                  > analogy.
                  >
                  > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                  > has the belief that you (and your
                  > fellow believers or countrymen)
                  > deserved the punishments as
                  > repayment for sin. Some call it
                  > Karma or cause and effect, or
                  > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                  > most religions see everyday
                  > living and hardships as a test
                  > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                  > to donate money to support
                  > the specific dogma that, basically,
                  > says and promises the same
                  > or similar things in the imagined
                  > hereafter.
                  >
                  > Plus, each religion has always
                  > blamed the non-believers for
                  > the sins that they suffer under
                  > as well. Eckankar is no different
                  > and Klemp is more like these
                  > preachers than EKists could ever
                  > admit.
                  >
                  > Well, got to go now....
                  > I just had some thoughts
                  > to share.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  "Non" wrote:
                  So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                  compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                  exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                  beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                  from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                  tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                  he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                  answers to ask the master etc.
                  >
                  Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                  as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                  not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                  is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                  Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                  leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                  him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                  with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                  by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                  >
                  They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                  you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                  advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                  on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                  drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                  it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                  >
                  > Non ;)
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Janice,
                  > Yes, one would think that
                  > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                  > would, at least, attempt
                  > to live up to his PR, but
                  > that's not the case with
                  > Klemp. Why put himself
                  > out there by demonstrating
                  > his powers? It's not like
                  > he announced to the
                  > whole world that he was....
                  > oh wait, he did!
                  >
                  > That was a long time ago
                  > and he never did make
                  > any predictions as most
                  > prophets do. Even Twit
                  > made some predictions.
                  > But, I'm sure that EKists
                  > haven't noticed and don't
                  > mine and that's why he
                  > doesn't feel any pressure
                  > to preform his responsibilities
                  > as a real prophet.
                  >
                  > Instead, Harold is very
                  > cautious of being too
                  > direct and understood.
                  > He'd rather have EKists
                  > fill-in the blanks and
                  > imagine what they want,
                  > need and expect until
                  > they go too far and have
                  > to have a behaviour
                  > adjustment by their RESA.
                  > That's why Klemp usually
                  > gives a very one dimensional
                  > perspective when he tells
                  > a story.
                  >
                  > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                  > why put too much
                  > effort into it! And, he
                  > figures that all he needs
                  > to do is the KISS thing
                  > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                  > Stupid. Of course EKies
                  > will substitute Soul for
                  > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                  >
                  > It's really quite amazing
                  > how simple Klemp's
                  > redundant message is.
                  > If EKists would just compare
                  > Klemp's simple minded
                  > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                  > leaders one would have
                  > to wonder what they see
                  > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                  > but they just laugh at his
                  > quirkiness because he's
                  > operating on so many
                  > high planes of consciousness
                  > simultaneously. LOL!
                  >
                  > Just Google Kristamurti's
                  > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                  > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                  > isn't even in the same ball
                  > park with the current Dali
                  > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                  > (pg. 385) he claims that
                  > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                  > religion while Eckankar
                  > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                  > But, EKists need to compare
                  > the two leaders and how
                  > they present themselves
                  > and what they have to say.
                  >
                  > Will ECKists make the
                  > comparison? No, of course
                  > not! They won't even allow
                  > the door to be opened a
                  > crack because some light
                  > might get in and show
                  > them the Truth. They can't
                  > handle the Truth and
                  > would rather remain ignorant.
                  > It's much easier, besides,
                  > what would they replace
                  > Eckankar with? It's too much
                  > responsibility to think for
                  > oneself and exercise free
                  > will. And, it would make
                  > life too lonely to lose all
                  > of those EK friends.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                  > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                  > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                  > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                  > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                  > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                  > charlatan to me.
                  >
                  >
                  > Prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > The December 2012
                  > Eckankar Mystic World
                  > in the Ask the Master
                  > section are two interesting
                  > questions and answers.
                  >
                  > The first question has
                  > to do with Stress and
                  > how to overcome it.
                  >
                  > HK's answer is wishy-
                  > washy at best. He says
                  > that stress is "very
                  > uncomfortable... Yet
                  > stress is a good teacher."
                  >
                  > Klemp goes on to say
                  > that people can increase
                  > their tolerance to stress
                  > by eating healthy, getting
                  > enough sleep, and by
                  > "Reducing our overuse
                  > of electronic devices."
                  >
                  > In other words it seems
                  > Klemp is saying, in a
                  > roundabout way, to use
                  > moderation. After all,
                  > he's saying to reduce
                  > "overuse."
                  >
                  > Then, again, how does
                  > a EK staffer at the ESC
                  > not use their computer
                  > 8 hours a day?
                  >
                  > The next question involves
                  > reincarnation. This guy's
                  > wife gave birth to a baby
                  > boy and two days later his
                  > mother translated (died).
                  > He indirectly asked if this
                  > new baby was his mother.
                  >
                  > Instead of giving this EKist
                  > a direct answer, Klemp,
                  > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                  > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                  > When it comes to rebirth,
                  > anything at all can happen...
                  > Whichever Soul is now your
                  > son, everything is in accord
                  > with what is best for all around."
                  >
                  > Prometheus

                • tuza8
                  Hi prometheus973,I agree what you said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name is master ching hai, master ching hai claim
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                    Hi prometheus973,I agree what you
                    said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name is master ching hai, master ching hai claim herself is 8 billion plane initiation level,do you believe it?in 1985 she become master and began taught mediatation on light and sound,whom said come from higher world into this lower world ,her also said come to this lower world many times,alway is a master for help people.do you believe?
                    --- In EckankarSurvirvorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                    > I'm not so sure that humans
                    > will ever become like, God,
                    > our imagined or possible
                    > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                    > not in any lifetime soon.
                    >
                    > But, it could be that the
                    > universe(s) just happened
                    > and that the remnants of
                    > other life forms were spread
                    > to this planet, and others,
                    > via space rubble... from
                    > destroyed civilizations
                    > and planets. Or, was it an
                    > intentional seeding by an
                    > advanced race... which was,
                    > itself, seeded by another
                    > advanced race etc.
                    >
                    > Maybe the "spiritual"
                    > experiences we have
                    > are the result of
                    > interaction with the
                    > quantum mechanical
                    > field?
                    >
                    > Anyway, it seems to me
                    > that what really matters
                    > are relationships. It's our
                    > relationships with others,
                    > even strangers, that matter
                    > most. This is how we really
                    > learn and grow. Loving
                    > relationships are valuable.
                    >
                    > Klemp, and others like
                    > him, are: liars; posers;
                    > have arrested development;
                    > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                    > and are even psychopathic.
                    > They are incapable of learning,
                    > or caring about others (are
                    > unloving) and attempt to
                    > impede social progress and
                    > justice. They use the rest of
                    > us for their own personal
                    > greed and selfish desires.
                    >
                    > Then, again, this strife and
                    > uncertainly (stress) that is
                    > created can make life interesting
                    > and a challenge, although,
                    > it can/will also be physically
                    > and emotionally painful.
                    >
                    > But, having a regular life
                    > without additional commitments
                    > and involvements can also
                    > offer rewarding experiences
                    > and insights. We are never
                    > all that alone. However, I'm
                    > not sure how peace of any
                    > sort (except in one's own mind)
                    > will ever happen in a world
                    > controlled by sociopaths.
                    >
                    > One must care about everyone
                    > and have caring relationships
                    > with people in order for humankind
                    > to advance and survive. To me,
                    > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                    > I almost included animals, too,
                    > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                    > include "caring" about them (all)
                    > too.
                    >
                    > How can one really "care" about
                    > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                    > except to keep them away from
                    > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                    > people.
                    >
                    > When one thinks about it the
                    > definition of what's "normal"
                    > keeps changing. The extroverts
                    > seem to be more pathological
                    > than the introverts don't you
                    > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                    > to force us introverts to become
                    > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                    > loves company I suppose or is
                    > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                    > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                    > is more intimidating.
                    >
                    > In any case the idea of a "God"
                    > to worship and viewed as being
                    > "involved" in our lives detracts
                    > from "us" being involved in our
                    > lives because of the differences
                    > we see in one another. This is
                    > why there are so many different
                    > religious dogmas of what's right
                    > and wrong.
                    >
                    > Therefore, the differences in the
                    > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                    > for me, shows that "God" does not
                    > exist. We don't want to be alone
                    > nor take responsibility for our own
                    > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                    > use God as our scape goat.
                    >
                    > There are major flaws with all
                    > of these religions and the so-called
                    > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                    > all hearsay and the only thing
                    > that, supposedly, gives them
                    > validation is that these various
                    > people in history/myth that the
                    > scribes wrote about are claimed
                    > to have said or done some nice,
                    > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                    > things a very long time ago. Age/
                    > time (being ancient) seems to
                    > have given them credibility, because
                    > it is believed and taught that
                    > only Divine Intercession could
                    > have been the source for their
                    > Divine Inspiration.
                    >
                    > But, IMO, there are many people,
                    > today, who are not even followers
                    > of these dogmas that are as, or
                    > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                    > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                    > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                    > of these major and minor religions.
                    > Many of these people inspired
                    > others by never giving up in time
                    > of conflict because, sometimes,
                    > there weren't many other choices.
                    > Even those who did give up and
                    > had bad things befall them, still,
                    > maintained their faith and this
                    > fact turned them into "prophets"
                    > or saints. If this is the standard
                    > for religions there are an awful
                    > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                    > that just as deluded and desperate.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > iam999freedom" wrote:
                    > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                    > with unconditional love for the
                    > master and you get a submissive
                    > control pattern as your reward.
                    > Buyer beware!
                    >
                    > Prometheus, you wrote:
                    > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                    > an experiment to see if we
                    > are all capable of evolving
                    > into our "spiritual" potential.
                    > Are we to become more than
                    > merely a divine thought?
                    > Maybe there is something
                    > more to that piece of a mirror
                    > analogy."
                    >
                    > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                    > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                    > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                    > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                    > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                    >
                    > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                    > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                    >
                    > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                    > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                    > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                    > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                    > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                    > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                    > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                    >
                    > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                    > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                    > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                    > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                    > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                    > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                    > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                    >
                    > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                    > that it would ever be necessary.
                    >
                    > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                    >
                    > I AM
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Non and All,
                    > > Thanks for the insightful
                    > > summary. I was exploring
                    > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                    > > charismatic Christian churches
                    > > and saw a reference to a
                    > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                    > >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                    > >
                    > > This person is mentioned
                    > > not by Jesus but by one of
                    > > his apostles in order to inspire
                    > > Faith.
                    > >
                    > > Even when God seems to
                    > > turn his back and: causes
                    > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                    > > lost; cities attacked and
                    > > overrun by your enemies;
                    > > people brutalized, tortured
                    > > and killed, one is to have
                    > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                    > > reward for keeping this
                    > > faith. God's ego needs
                    > > you to believe in him
                    > > regardless of what pain
                    > > he allows to befall you.
                    > >
                    > > One needs to project
                    > > a sense of hope in order
                    > > to better endure life, as
                    > > it is, no matter how bad.
                    > >
                    > > And, it's easier to face these
                    > > challenges when you believe
                    > > that God is on your side and
                    > > not that of your oppressor.
                    > >
                    > > However, does God really
                    > > take sides? It seems that God
                    > > is/was created in man's image.
                    > >
                    > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                    > > an experiment to see if we
                    > > are all capable of evolving
                    > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                    > > Are we to become more than
                    > > merely a divine thought?
                    > > Maybe there is something
                    > > more to that piece of a mirror
                    > > analogy.
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                    > > has the belief that you (and your
                    > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                    > > deserved the punishments as
                    > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                    > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                    > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                    > > most religions see everyday
                    > > living and hardships as a test
                    > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                    > > to donate money to support
                    > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                    > > says and promises the same
                    > > or similar things in the imagined
                    > > hereafter.
                    > >
                    > > Plus, each religion has always
                    > > blamed the non-believers for
                    > > the sins that they suffer under
                    > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                    > > and Klemp is more like these
                    > > preachers than EKists could ever
                    > > admit.
                    > >
                    > > Well, got to go now....
                    > > I just had some thoughts
                    > > to share.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > "Non" wrote:
                    > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                    > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                    > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                    > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                    > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                    > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                    > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                    > answers to ask the master etc.
                    > >
                    > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                    > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                    > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                    > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                    > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                    > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                    > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                    > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                    > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                    > >
                    > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                    > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                    > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                    > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                    > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                    > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                    > >
                    > > Non ;)
                    > >
                    > > prometheus wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Janice,
                    > > Yes, one would think that
                    > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                    > > would, at least, attempt
                    > > to live up to his PR, but
                    > > that's not the case with
                    > > Klemp. Why put himself
                    > > out there by demonstrating
                    > > his powers? It's not like
                    > > he announced to the
                    > > whole world that he was....
                    > > oh wait, he did!
                    > >
                    > > That was a long time ago
                    > > and he never did make
                    > > any predictions as most
                    > > prophets do. Even Twit
                    > > made some predictions.
                    > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                    > > haven't noticed and don't
                    > > mine and that's why he
                    > > doesn't feel any pressure
                    > > to preform his responsibilities
                    > > as a real prophet.
                    > >
                    > > Instead, Harold is very
                    > > cautious of being too
                    > > direct and understood.
                    > > He'd rather have EKists
                    > > fill-in the blanks and
                    > > imagine what they want,
                    > > need and expect until
                    > > they go too far and have
                    > > to have a behaviour
                    > > adjustment by their RESA.
                    > > That's why Klemp usually
                    > > gives a very one dimensional
                    > > perspective when he tells
                    > > a story.
                    > >
                    > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                    > > why put too much
                    > > effort into it! And, he
                    > > figures that all he needs
                    > > to do is the KISS thing
                    > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                    > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                    > > will substitute Soul for
                    > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                    > >
                    > > It's really quite amazing
                    > > how simple Klemp's
                    > > redundant message is.
                    > > If EKists would just compare
                    > > Klemp's simple minded
                    > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                    > > leaders one would have
                    > > to wonder what they see
                    > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                    > > but they just laugh at his
                    > > quirkiness because he's
                    > > operating on so many
                    > > high planes of consciousness
                    > > simultaneously. LOL!
                    > >
                    > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                    > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                    > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                    > > isn't even in the same ball
                    > > park with the current Dali
                    > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                    > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                    > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                    > > religion while Eckankar
                    > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                    > > But, EKists need to compare
                    > > the two leaders and how
                    > > they present themselves
                    > > and what they have to say.
                    > >
                    > > Will ECKists make the
                    > > comparison? No, of course
                    > > not! They won't even allow
                    > > the door to be opened a
                    > > crack because some light
                    > > might get in and show
                    > > them the Truth. They can't
                    > > handle the Truth and
                    > > would rather remain ignorant.
                    > > It's much easier, besides,
                    > > what would they replace
                    > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                    > > responsibility to think for
                    > > oneself and exercise free
                    > > will. And, it would make
                    > > life too lonely to lose all
                    > > of those EK friends.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                    > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                    > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                    > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                    > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                    > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                    > > charlatan to me.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The December 2012
                    > > Eckankar Mystic World
                    > > in the Ask the Master
                    > > section are two interesting
                    > > questions and answers.
                    > >
                    > > The first question has
                    > > to do with Stress and
                    > > how to overcome it.
                    > >
                    > > HK's answer is wishy-
                    > > washy at best. He says
                    > > that stress is "very
                    > > uncomfortable... Yet
                    > > stress is a good teacher."
                    > >
                    > > Klemp goes on to say
                    > > that people can increase
                    > > their tolerance to stress
                    > > by eating healthy, getting
                    > > enough sleep, and by
                    > > "Reducing our overuse
                    > > of electronic devices."
                    > >
                    > > In other words it seems
                    > > Klemp is saying, in a
                    > > roundabout way, to use
                    > > moderation. After all,
                    > > he's saying to reduce
                    > > "overuse."
                    > >
                    > > Then, again, how does
                    > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                    > > not use their computer
                    > > 8 hours a day?
                    > >
                    > > The next question involves
                    > > reincarnation. This guy's
                    > > wife gave birth to a baby
                    > > boy and two days later his
                    > > mother translated (died).
                    > > He indirectly asked if this
                    > > new baby was his mother.
                    > >
                    > > Instead of giving this EKist
                    > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                    > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                    > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                    > > When it comes to rebirth,
                    > > anything at all can happen...
                    > > Whichever Soul is now your
                    > > son, everything is in accord
                    > > with what is best for all around."
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    >
                  • iam999freedom
                    Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning,
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

                      Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

                      I AM

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      >
                      > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                      > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                      > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                      > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                      >
                      > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: prometheus_973
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                      > I'm not so sure that humans
                      > will ever become like, God,
                      > our imagined or possible
                      > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                      > not in any lifetime soon.
                      >
                      > But, it could be that the
                      > universe(s) just happened
                      > and that the remnants of
                      > other life forms were spread
                      > to this planet, and others,
                      > via space rubble... from
                      > destroyed civilizations
                      > and planets. Or, was it an
                      > intentional seeding by an
                      > advanced race... which was,
                      > itself, seeded by another
                      > advanced race etc.
                      >
                      > Maybe the "spiritual"
                      > experiences we have
                      > are the result of
                      > interaction with the
                      > quantum mechanical
                      > field?
                      >
                      > Anyway, it seems to me
                      > that what really matters
                      > are relationships. It's our
                      > relationships with others,
                      > even strangers, that matter
                      > most. This is how we really
                      > learn and grow. Loving
                      > relationships are valuable.
                      >
                      > Klemp, and others like
                      > him, are: liars; posers;
                      > have arrested development;
                      > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                      > and are even psychopathic.
                      > They are incapable of learning,
                      > or caring about others (are
                      > unloving) and attempt to
                      > impede social progress and
                      > justice. They use the rest of
                      > us for their own personal
                      > greed and selfish desires.
                      >
                      > Then, again, this strife and
                      > uncertainly (stress) that is
                      > created can make life interesting
                      > and a challenge, although,
                      > it can/will also be physically
                      > and emotionally painful.
                      >
                      > But, having a regular life
                      > without additional commitments
                      > and involvements can also
                      > offer rewarding experiences
                      > and insights. We are never
                      > all that alone. However, I'm
                      > not sure how peace of any
                      > sort (except in one's own mind)
                      > will ever happen in a world
                      > controlled by sociopaths.
                      >
                      > One must care about everyone
                      > and have caring relationships
                      > with people in order for humankind
                      > to advance and survive. To me,
                      > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                      > I almost included animals, too,
                      > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                      > include "caring" about them (all)
                      > too.
                      >
                      > How can one really "care" about
                      > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                      > except to keep them away from
                      > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                      > people.
                      >
                      > When one thinks about it the
                      > definition of what's "normal"
                      > keeps changing. The extroverts
                      > seem to be more pathological
                      > than the introverts don't you
                      > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                      > to force us introverts to become
                      > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                      > loves company I suppose or is
                      > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                      > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                      > is more intimidating.
                      >
                      > In any case the idea of a "God"
                      > to worship and viewed as being
                      > "involved" in our lives detracts
                      > from "us" being involved in our
                      > lives because of the differences
                      > we see in one another. This is
                      > why there are so many different
                      > religious dogmas of what's right
                      > and wrong.
                      >
                      > Therefore, the differences in the
                      > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                      > for me, shows that "God" does not
                      > exist. We don't want to be alone
                      > nor take responsibility for our own
                      > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                      > use God as our scape goat.
                      >
                      > There are major flaws with all
                      > of these religions and the so-called
                      > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                      > all hearsay and the only thing
                      > that, supposedly, gives them
                      > validation is that these various
                      > people in history/myth that the
                      > scribes wrote about are claimed
                      > to have said or done some nice,
                      > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                      > things a very long time ago. Age/
                      > time (being ancient) seems to
                      > have given them credibility, because
                      > it is believed and taught that
                      > only Divine Intercession could
                      > have been the source for their
                      > Divine Inspiration.
                      >
                      > But, IMO, there are many people,
                      > today, who are not even followers
                      > of these dogmas that are as, or
                      > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                      > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                      > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                      > of these major and minor religions.
                      > Many of these people inspired
                      > others by never giving up in time
                      > of conflict because, sometimes,
                      > there weren't many other choices.
                      > Even those who did give up and
                      > had bad things befall them, still,
                      > maintained their faith and this
                      > fact turned them into "prophets"
                      > or saints. If this is the standard
                      > for religions there are an awful
                      > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                      > that just as deluded and desperate.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > iam999freedom" wrote:
                      > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                      > with unconditional love for the
                      > master and you get a submissive
                      > control pattern as your reward.
                      > Buyer beware!
                      >
                      > Prometheus, you wrote:
                      > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                      > an experiment to see if we
                      > are all capable of evolving
                      > into our "spiritual" potential.
                      > Are we to become more than
                      > merely a divine thought?
                      > Maybe there is something
                      > more to that piece of a mirror
                      > analogy."
                      >
                      > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                      > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                      > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                      > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                      > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                      >
                      > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                      > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                      >
                      > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                      > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                      > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                      > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                      > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                      > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                      > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                      >
                      > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                      > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                      > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                      > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                      > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                      > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                      > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                      >
                      > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                      > that it would ever be necessary.
                      >
                      > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                      >
                      > I AM
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Non and All,
                      > > Thanks for the insightful
                      > > summary. I was exploring
                      > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                      > > charismatic Christian churches
                      > > and saw a reference to a
                      > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                      > >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                      > >
                      > > This person is mentioned
                      > > not by Jesus but by one of
                      > > his apostles in order to inspire
                      > > Faith.
                      > >
                      > > Even when God seems to
                      > > turn his back and: causes
                      > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                      > > lost; cities attacked and
                      > > overrun by your enemies;
                      > > people brutalized, tortured
                      > > and killed, one is to have
                      > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                      > > reward for keeping this
                      > > faith. God's ego needs
                      > > you to believe in him
                      > > regardless of what pain
                      > > he allows to befall you.
                      > >
                      > > One needs to project
                      > > a sense of hope in order
                      > > to better endure life, as
                      > > it is, no matter how bad.
                      > >
                      > > And, it's easier to face these
                      > > challenges when you believe
                      > > that God is on your side and
                      > > not that of your oppressor.
                      > >
                      > > However, does God really
                      > > take sides? It seems that God
                      > > is/was created in man's image.
                      > >
                      > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                      > > an experiment to see if we
                      > > are all capable of evolving
                      > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                      > > Are we to become more than
                      > > merely a divine thought?
                      > > Maybe there is something
                      > > more to that piece of a mirror
                      > > analogy.
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                      > > has the belief that you (and your
                      > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                      > > deserved the punishments as
                      > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                      > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                      > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                      > > most religions see everyday
                      > > living and hardships as a test
                      > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                      > > to donate money to support
                      > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                      > > says and promises the same
                      > > or similar things in the imagined
                      > > hereafter.
                      > >
                      > > Plus, each religion has always
                      > > blamed the non-believers for
                      > > the sins that they suffer under
                      > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                      > > and Klemp is more like these
                      > > preachers than EKists could ever
                      > > admit.
                      > >
                      > > Well, got to go now....
                      > > I just had some thoughts
                      > > to share.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > "Non" wrote:
                      > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                      > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                      > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                      > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                      > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                      > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                      > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                      > answers to ask the master etc.
                      > >
                      > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                      > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                      > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                      > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                      > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                      > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                      > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                      > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                      > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                      > >
                      > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                      > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                      > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                      > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                      > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                      > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                      > >
                      > > Non ;)
                      > >
                      > > prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Janice,
                      > > Yes, one would think that
                      > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                      > > would, at least, attempt
                      > > to live up to his PR, but
                      > > that's not the case with
                      > > Klemp. Why put himself
                      > > out there by demonstrating
                      > > his powers? It's not like
                      > > he announced to the
                      > > whole world that he was....
                      > > oh wait, he did!
                      > >
                      > > That was a long time ago
                      > > and he never did make
                      > > any predictions as most
                      > > prophets do. Even Twit
                      > > made some predictions.
                      > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                      > > haven't noticed and don't
                      > > mine and that's why he
                      > > doesn't feel any pressure
                      > > to preform his responsibilities
                      > > as a real prophet.
                      > >
                      > > Instead, Harold is very
                      > > cautious of being too
                      > > direct and understood.
                      > > He'd rather have EKists
                      > > fill-in the blanks and
                      > > imagine what they want,
                      > > need and expect until
                      > > they go too far and have
                      > > to have a behaviour
                      > > adjustment by their RESA.
                      > > That's why Klemp usually
                      > > gives a very one dimensional
                      > > perspective when he tells
                      > > a story.
                      > >
                      > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                      > > why put too much
                      > > effort into it! And, he
                      > > figures that all he needs
                      > > to do is the KISS thing
                      > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                      > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                      > > will substitute Soul for
                      > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                      > >
                      > > It's really quite amazing
                      > > how simple Klemp's
                      > > redundant message is.
                      > > If EKists would just compare
                      > > Klemp's simple minded
                      > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                      > > leaders one would have
                      > > to wonder what they see
                      > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                      > > but they just laugh at his
                      > > quirkiness because he's
                      > > operating on so many
                      > > high planes of consciousness
                      > > simultaneously. LOL!
                      > >
                      > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                      > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                      > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                      > > isn't even in the same ball
                      > > park with the current Dali
                      > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                      > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                      > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                      > > religion while Eckankar
                      > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                      > > But, EKists need to compare
                      > > the two leaders and how
                      > > they present themselves
                      > > and what they have to say.
                      > >
                      > > Will ECKists make the
                      > > comparison? No, of course
                      > > not! They won't even allow
                      > > the door to be opened a
                      > > crack because some light
                      > > might get in and show
                      > > them the Truth. They can't
                      > > handle the Truth and
                      > > would rather remain ignorant.
                      > > It's much easier, besides,
                      > > what would they replace
                      > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                      > > responsibility to think for
                      > > oneself and exercise free
                      > > will. And, it would make
                      > > life too lonely to lose all
                      > > of those EK friends.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                      > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                      > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                      > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                      > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                      > > charlatan to me.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > The December 2012
                      > > Eckankar Mystic World
                      > > in the Ask the Master
                      > > section are two interesting
                      > > questions and answers.
                      > >
                      > > The first question has
                      > > to do with Stress and
                      > > how to overcome it.
                      > >
                      > > HK's answer is wishy-
                      > > washy at best. He says
                      > > that stress is "very
                      > > uncomfortable... Yet
                      > > stress is a good teacher."
                      > >
                      > > Klemp goes on to say
                      > > that people can increase
                      > > their tolerance to stress
                      > > by eating healthy, getting
                      > > enough sleep, and by
                      > > "Reducing our overuse
                      > > of electronic devices."
                      > >
                      > > In other words it seems
                      > > Klemp is saying, in a
                      > > roundabout way, to use
                      > > moderation. After all,
                      > > he's saying to reduce
                      > > "overuse."
                      > >
                      > > Then, again, how does
                      > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                      > > not use their computer
                      > > 8 hours a day?
                      > >
                      > > The next question involves
                      > > reincarnation. This guy's
                      > > wife gave birth to a baby
                      > > boy and two days later his
                      > > mother translated (died).
                      > > He indirectly asked if this
                      > > new baby was his mother.
                      > >
                      > > Instead of giving this EKist
                      > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                      > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                      > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                      > > When it comes to rebirth,
                      > > anything at all can happen...
                      > > Whichever Soul is now your
                      > > son, everything is in accord
                      > > with what is best for all around."
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Tuza8, Welcome to the site! Thanks for the info on, yet, another religious scammer/fraud. I m assuming that your questions are rhetorical. I found some
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello Tuza8,
                        Welcome to the site!
                        Thanks for the info
                        on, yet, another religious
                        scammer/fraud.

                        I'm assuming that your
                        questions are rhetorical.

                        I found some info on this
                        person and the following
                        video:

                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I

                        Here's more info that that
                        I uncovered on Wikipedia:

                        [Note the info within the (*****)
                        It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                        Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]

                        Quan Yin Method

                        In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the 'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with which she is now associated.[10]


                        *****
                        Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]

                        Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best, easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                        *****


                        Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the

                        "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:

                        Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                        Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                        Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                        Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                        Refrain from the use of intoxicants.

                        [edit]Quan Yin Method in China

                        Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]

                        The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July 1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in 20 provinces and cities.[10]

                        In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies of "heretical texts."[10]

                        [edit]Criticism

                        [edit]Environmental violations
                        In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400 and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned to establish a park on the site.[33]

                        Yes, I read where she is
                        very popular in Taiwan
                        and that she has 20,000
                        followers world wide.

                        She's half Vietnamese
                        and Chinese and became
                        a disciple of Thakar Singh
                        and studied Surat Shabd
                        Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                        Light and Sound), but
                        was, later, initiated by
                        a Buddhist monk.

                        All those who follow
                        her are asked to become
                        Vegetarians and initiation
                        is free of charge. It doesn't
                        appear that there is a
                        Membership Donation/Fee
                        like with Ecklankar, but
                        she does make a lot of
                        money by selling books,
                        videos, etc. She also owns
                        Vegetarian and Vegan
                        Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                        has jewelry outlets, and
                        designs her own clothing
                        line.

                        Her name, Ching Hai,
                        means "pure ocean."

                        Google the "Quan Yin
                        Method" to find out
                        more about her daily
                        meditation of the inner
                        L & S.

                        She's been described as a:
                        "tireless publicity seeker;
                        The Immaterial Girl... Part
                        Buddha, Part Madonna;
                        The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                        ... merchandizing mystic
                        from Taiwan."

                        So, it seems that because
                        of her Buddhist connections
                        that she's associated with
                        the more familiar Buddhism,
                        however, she teaches the
                        less known (outside India)
                        Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                        ECKankar.

                        Funny, though, that her
                        religion/enterprise had
                        a later start than ECKankar
                        but is making more money
                        and bringing in more people.

                        Prometheus

                        "tuza8" wrote:

                        Hi prometheu,
                        I agree what you said,
                        they are some false master
                        in public.

                        recently one femala master,
                        her name is master ching hai,
                        master ching hai claim herself
                        is 8 billion plane initiation level,

                        do you believe it?

                        in 1985 she become master
                        and began taught mediatation
                        on light and sound, whom said
                        come from higher world into
                        this lower world ,

                        her also said come to this
                        lower world many times,
                        alway is a master for help
                        people.

                        do you believe?

                        prometheus_973" wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                        > > I'm not so sure that humans
                        > > will ever become like, God,
                        > > our imagined or possible
                        > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                        > > not in any lifetime soon.
                        > >
                        > > But, it could be that the
                        > > universe(s) just happened
                        > > and that the remnants of
                        > > other life forms were spread
                        > > to this planet, and others,
                        > > via space rubble... from
                        > > destroyed civilizations
                        > > and planets. Or, was it an
                        > > intentional seeding by an
                        > > advanced race... which was,
                        > > itself, seeded by another
                        > > advanced race etc.
                        > >
                        > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                        > > experiences we have
                        > > are the result of
                        > > interaction with the
                        > > quantum mechanical
                        > > field?
                        > >
                        > > Anyway, it seems to me
                        > > that what really matters
                        > > are relationships. It's our
                        > > relationships with others,
                        > > even strangers, that matter
                        > > most. This is how we really
                        > > learn and grow. Loving
                        > > relationships are valuable.
                        > >
                        > > Klemp, and others like
                        > > him, are: liars; posers;
                        > > have arrested development;
                        > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                        > > and are even psychopathic.
                        > > They are incapable of learning,
                        > > or caring about others (are
                        > > unloving) and attempt to
                        > > impede social progress and
                        > > justice. They use the rest of
                        > > us for their own personal
                        > > greed and selfish desires.
                        > >
                        > > Then, again, this strife and
                        > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                        > > created can make life interesting
                        > > and a challenge, although,
                        > > it can/will also be physically
                        > > and emotionally painful.
                        > >
                        > > But, having a regular life
                        > > without additional commitments
                        > > and involvements can also
                        > > offer rewarding experiences
                        > > and insights. We are never
                        > > all that alone. However, I'm
                        > > not sure how peace of any
                        > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                        > > will ever happen in a world
                        > > controlled by sociopaths.
                        > >
                        > > One must care about everyone
                        > > and have caring relationships
                        > > with people in order for humankind
                        > > to advance and survive. To me,
                        > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                        > > I almost included animals, too,
                        > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                        > > include "caring" about them (all)
                        > > too.
                        > >
                        > > How can one really "care" about
                        > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                        > > except to keep them away from
                        > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                        > > people.
                        > >
                        > > When one thinks about it the
                        > > definition of what's "normal"
                        > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                        > > seem to be more pathological
                        > > than the introverts don't you
                        > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                        > > to force us introverts to become
                        > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                        > > loves company I suppose or is
                        > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                        > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                        > > is more intimidating.
                        > >
                        > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                        > > to worship and viewed as being
                        > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                        > > from "us" being involved in our
                        > > lives because of the differences
                        > > we see in one another. This is
                        > > why there are so many different
                        > > religious dogmas of what's right
                        > > and wrong.
                        > >
                        > > Therefore, the differences in the
                        > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                        > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                        > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                        > > nor take responsibility for our own
                        > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                        > > use God as our scape goat.
                        > >
                        > > There are major flaws with all
                        > > of these religions and the so-called
                        > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                        > > all hearsay and the only thing
                        > > that, supposedly, gives them
                        > > validation is that these various
                        > > people in history/myth that the
                        > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                        > > to have said or done some nice,
                        > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                        > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                        > > time (being ancient) seems to
                        > > have given them credibility, because
                        > > it is believed and taught that
                        > > only Divine Intercession could
                        > > have been the source for their
                        > > Divine Inspiration.
                        > >
                        > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                        > > today, who are not even followers
                        > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                        > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                        > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                        > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                        > > of these major and minor religions.
                        > > Many of these people inspired
                        > > others by never giving up in time
                        > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                        > > there weren't many other choices.
                        > > Even those who did give up and
                        > > had bad things befall them, still,
                        > > maintained their faith and this
                        > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                        > > or saints. If this is the standard
                        > > for religions there are an awful
                        > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                        > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                        > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                        > > with unconditional love for the
                        > > master and you get a submissive
                        > > control pattern as your reward.
                        > > Buyer beware!
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                        > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                        > > an experiment to see if we
                        > > are all capable of evolving
                        > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                        > > Are we to become more than
                        > > merely a divine thought?
                        > > Maybe there is something
                        > > more to that piece of a mirror
                        > > analogy."
                        > >
                        > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                        > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                        > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                        > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                        > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                        > >
                        > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                        > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                        > >
                        > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                        > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                        > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                        > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                        > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                        > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                        > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                        > >
                        > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                        > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                        > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                        > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                        > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                        > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                        > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                        > >
                        > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                        > > that it would ever be necessary.
                        > >
                        > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                        > >
                        > > I AM
                        > >
                        > > prometheus wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello Non and All,
                        > > > Thanks for the insightful
                        > > > summary. I was exploring
                        > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                        > > > charismatic Christian churches
                        > > > and saw a reference to a
                        > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                        > > >
                        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                        > > >
                        > > > This person is mentioned
                        > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                        > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                        > > > Faith.
                        > > >
                        > > > Even when God seems to
                        > > > turn his back and: causes
                        > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                        > > > lost; cities attacked and
                        > > > overrun by your enemies;
                        > > > people brutalized, tortured
                        > > > and killed, one is to have
                        > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                        > > > reward for keeping this
                        > > > faith. God's ego needs
                        > > > you to believe in him
                        > > > regardless of what pain
                        > > > he allows to befall you.
                        > > >
                        > > > One needs to project
                        > > > a sense of hope in order
                        > > > to better endure life, as
                        > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                        > > >
                        > > > And, it's easier to face these
                        > > > challenges when you believe
                        > > > that God is on your side and
                        > > > not that of your oppressor.
                        > > >
                        > > > However, does God really
                        > > > take sides? It seems that God
                        > > > is/was created in man's image.
                        > > >
                        > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                        > > > an experiment to see if we
                        > > > are all capable of evolving
                        > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                        > > > Are we to become more than
                        > > > merely a divine thought?
                        > > > Maybe there is something
                        > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                        > > > analogy.
                        > > >
                        > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                        > > > has the belief that you (and your
                        > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                        > > > deserved the punishments as
                        > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                        > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                        > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                        > > > most religions see everyday
                        > > > living and hardships as a test
                        > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                        > > > to donate money to support
                        > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                        > > > says and promises the same
                        > > > or similar things in the imagined
                        > > > hereafter.
                        > > >
                        > > > Plus, each religion has always
                        > > > blamed the non-believers for
                        > > > the sins that they suffer under
                        > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                        > > > and Klemp is more like these
                        > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                        > > > admit.
                        > > >
                        > > > Well, got to go now....
                        > > > I just had some thoughts
                        > > > to share.
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > > >
                        > > "Non" wrote:
                        > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                        > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                        > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                        > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                        > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                        > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                        > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                        > > answers to ask the master etc.
                        > > >
                        > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                        > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                        > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                        > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                        > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                        > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                        > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                        > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                        > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                        > > >
                        > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                        > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                        > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                        > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                        > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                        > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                        > > >
                        > > > Non ;)
                        > > >
                        > > > prometheus wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello Janice,
                        > > > Yes, one would think that
                        > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                        > > > would, at least, attempt
                        > > > to live up to his PR, but
                        > > > that's not the case with
                        > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                        > > > out there by demonstrating
                        > > > his powers? It's not like
                        > > > he announced to the
                        > > > whole world that he was....
                        > > > oh wait, he did!
                        > > >
                        > > > That was a long time ago
                        > > > and he never did make
                        > > > any predictions as most
                        > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                        > > > made some predictions.
                        > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                        > > > haven't noticed and don't
                        > > > mine and that's why he
                        > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                        > > > to preform his responsibilities
                        > > > as a real prophet.
                        > > >
                        > > > Instead, Harold is very
                        > > > cautious of being too
                        > > > direct and understood.
                        > > > He'd rather have EKists
                        > > > fill-in the blanks and
                        > > > imagine what they want,
                        > > > need and expect until
                        > > > they go too far and have
                        > > > to have a behaviour
                        > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                        > > > That's why Klemp usually
                        > > > gives a very one dimensional
                        > > > perspective when he tells
                        > > > a story.
                        > > >
                        > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                        > > > why put too much
                        > > > effort into it! And, he
                        > > > figures that all he needs
                        > > > to do is the KISS thing
                        > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                        > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                        > > > will substitute Soul for
                        > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                        > > >
                        > > > It's really quite amazing
                        > > > how simple Klemp's
                        > > > redundant message is.
                        > > > If EKists would just compare
                        > > > Klemp's simple minded
                        > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                        > > > leaders one would have
                        > > > to wonder what they see
                        > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                        > > > but they just laugh at his
                        > > > quirkiness because he's
                        > > > operating on so many
                        > > > high planes of consciousness
                        > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                        > > >
                        > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                        > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                        > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                        > > > isn't even in the same ball
                        > > > park with the current Dali
                        > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                        > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                        > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                        > > > religion while Eckankar
                        > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                        > > > But, EKists need to compare
                        > > > the two leaders and how
                        > > > they present themselves
                        > > > and what they have to say.
                        > > >
                        > > > Will ECKists make the
                        > > > comparison? No, of course
                        > > > not! They won't even allow
                        > > > the door to be opened a
                        > > > crack because some light
                        > > > might get in and show
                        > > > them the Truth. They can't
                        > > > handle the Truth and
                        > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                        > > > It's much easier, besides,
                        > > > what would they replace
                        > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                        > > > responsibility to think for
                        > > > oneself and exercise free
                        > > > will. And, it would make
                        > > > life too lonely to lose all
                        > > > of those EK friends.
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                        > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                        > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                        > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                        > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                        > > > charlatan to me.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > The December 2012
                        > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                        > > > in the Ask the Master
                        > > > section are two interesting
                        > > > questions and answers.
                        > > >
                        > > > The first question has
                        > > > to do with Stress and
                        > > > how to overcome it.
                        > > >
                        > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                        > > > washy at best. He says
                        > > > that stress is "very
                        > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                        > > > stress is a good teacher."
                        > > >
                        > > > Klemp goes on to say
                        > > > that people can increase
                        > > > their tolerance to stress
                        > > > by eating healthy, getting
                        > > > enough sleep, and by
                        > > > "Reducing our overuse
                        > > > of electronic devices."
                        > > >
                        > > > In other words it seems
                        > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                        > > > roundabout way, to use
                        > > > moderation. After all,
                        > > > he's saying to reduce
                        > > > "overuse."
                        > > >
                        > > > Then, again, how does
                        > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                        > > > not use their computer
                        > > > 8 hours a day?
                        > > >
                        > > > The next question involves
                        > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                        > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                        > > > boy and two days later his
                        > > > mother translated (died).
                        > > > He indirectly asked if this
                        > > > new baby was his mother.
                        > > >
                        > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                        > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                        > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                        > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                        > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                        > > > anything at all can happen...
                        > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                        > > > son, everything is in accord
                        > > > with what is best for all around."
                        > > >
                        > > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        >
                      • iam999freedom
                        I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
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                          I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle. In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are naturally more happy.

                          If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

                          I AM.......HAPPY LOL

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                          >
                          > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                          >
                          > I AM
                          >
                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                          > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                          > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                          > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                          > >
                          > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > From: prometheus_973
                          > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                          > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >  
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                          > > I'm not so sure that humans
                          > > will ever become like, God,
                          > > our imagined or possible
                          > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                          > > not in any lifetime soon.
                          > >
                          > > But, it could be that the
                          > > universe(s) just happened
                          > > and that the remnants of
                          > > other life forms were spread
                          > > to this planet, and others,
                          > > via space rubble... from
                          > > destroyed civilizations
                          > > and planets. Or, was it an
                          > > intentional seeding by an
                          > > advanced race... which was,
                          > > itself, seeded by another
                          > > advanced race etc.
                          > >
                          > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                          > > experiences we have
                          > > are the result of
                          > > interaction with the
                          > > quantum mechanical
                          > > field?
                          > >
                          > > Anyway, it seems to me
                          > > that what really matters
                          > > are relationships. It's our
                          > > relationships with others,
                          > > even strangers, that matter
                          > > most. This is how we really
                          > > learn and grow. Loving
                          > > relationships are valuable.
                          > >
                          > > Klemp, and others like
                          > > him, are: liars; posers;
                          > > have arrested development;
                          > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                          > > and are even psychopathic.
                          > > They are incapable of learning,
                          > > or caring about others (are
                          > > unloving) and attempt to
                          > > impede social progress and
                          > > justice. They use the rest of
                          > > us for their own personal
                          > > greed and selfish desires.
                          > >
                          > > Then, again, this strife and
                          > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                          > > created can make life interesting
                          > > and a challenge, although,
                          > > it can/will also be physically
                          > > and emotionally painful.
                          > >
                          > > But, having a regular life
                          > > without additional commitments
                          > > and involvements can also
                          > > offer rewarding experiences
                          > > and insights. We are never
                          > > all that alone. However, I'm
                          > > not sure how peace of any
                          > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                          > > will ever happen in a world
                          > > controlled by sociopaths.
                          > >
                          > > One must care about everyone
                          > > and have caring relationships
                          > > with people in order for humankind
                          > > to advance and survive. To me,
                          > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                          > > I almost included animals, too,
                          > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                          > > include "caring" about them (all)
                          > > too.
                          > >
                          > > How can one really "care" about
                          > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                          > > except to keep them away from
                          > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                          > > people.
                          > >
                          > > When one thinks about it the
                          > > definition of what's "normal"
                          > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                          > > seem to be more pathological
                          > > than the introverts don't you
                          > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                          > > to force us introverts to become
                          > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                          > > loves company I suppose or is
                          > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                          > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                          > > is more intimidating.
                          > >
                          > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                          > > to worship and viewed as being
                          > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                          > > from "us" being involved in our
                          > > lives because of the differences
                          > > we see in one another. This is
                          > > why there are so many different
                          > > religious dogmas of what's right
                          > > and wrong.
                          > >
                          > > Therefore, the differences in the
                          > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                          > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                          > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                          > > nor take responsibility for our own
                          > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                          > > use God as our scape goat.
                          > >
                          > > There are major flaws with all
                          > > of these religions and the so-called
                          > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                          > > all hearsay and the only thing
                          > > that, supposedly, gives them
                          > > validation is that these various
                          > > people in history/myth that the
                          > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                          > > to have said or done some nice,
                          > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                          > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                          > > time (being ancient) seems to
                          > > have given them credibility, because
                          > > it is believed and taught that
                          > > only Divine Intercession could
                          > > have been the source for their
                          > > Divine Inspiration.
                          > >
                          > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                          > > today, who are not even followers
                          > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                          > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                          > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                          > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                          > > of these major and minor religions.
                          > > Many of these people inspired
                          > > others by never giving up in time
                          > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                          > > there weren't many other choices.
                          > > Even those who did give up and
                          > > had bad things befall them, still,
                          > > maintained their faith and this
                          > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                          > > or saints. If this is the standard
                          > > for religions there are an awful
                          > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                          > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                          > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                          > > with unconditional love for the
                          > > master and you get a submissive
                          > > control pattern as your reward.
                          > > Buyer beware!
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                          > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                          > > an experiment to see if we
                          > > are all capable of evolving
                          > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                          > > Are we to become more than
                          > > merely a divine thought?
                          > > Maybe there is something
                          > > more to that piece of a mirror
                          > > analogy."
                          > >
                          > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                          > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                          > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                          > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                          > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                          > >
                          > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                          > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                          > >
                          > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                          > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                          > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                          > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                          > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                          > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                          > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                          > >
                          > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                          > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                          > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                          > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                          > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                          > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                          > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                          > >
                          > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                          > > that it would ever be necessary.
                          > >
                          > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                          > >
                          > > I AM
                          > >
                          > > prometheus wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hello Non and All,
                          > > > Thanks for the insightful
                          > > > summary. I was exploring
                          > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                          > > > charismatic Christian churches
                          > > > and saw a reference to a
                          > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                          > > >
                          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                          > > >
                          > > > This person is mentioned
                          > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                          > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                          > > > Faith.
                          > > >
                          > > > Even when God seems to
                          > > > turn his back and: causes
                          > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                          > > > lost; cities attacked and
                          > > > overrun by your enemies;
                          > > > people brutalized, tortured
                          > > > and killed, one is to have
                          > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                          > > > reward for keeping this
                          > > > faith. God's ego needs
                          > > > you to believe in him
                          > > > regardless of what pain
                          > > > he allows to befall you.
                          > > >
                          > > > One needs to project
                          > > > a sense of hope in order
                          > > > to better endure life, as
                          > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                          > > >
                          > > > And, it's easier to face these
                          > > > challenges when you believe
                          > > > that God is on your side and
                          > > > not that of your oppressor.
                          > > >
                          > > > However, does God really
                          > > > take sides? It seems that God
                          > > > is/was created in man's image.
                          > > >
                          > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                          > > > an experiment to see if we
                          > > > are all capable of evolving
                          > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                          > > > Are we to become more than
                          > > > merely a divine thought?
                          > > > Maybe there is something
                          > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                          > > > analogy.
                          > > >
                          > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                          > > > has the belief that you (and your
                          > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                          > > > deserved the punishments as
                          > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                          > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                          > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                          > > > most religions see everyday
                          > > > living and hardships as a test
                          > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                          > > > to donate money to support
                          > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                          > > > says and promises the same
                          > > > or similar things in the imagined
                          > > > hereafter.
                          > > >
                          > > > Plus, each religion has always
                          > > > blamed the non-believers for
                          > > > the sins that they suffer under
                          > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                          > > > and Klemp is more like these
                          > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                          > > > admit.
                          > > >
                          > > > Well, got to go now....
                          > > > I just had some thoughts
                          > > > to share.
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus
                          > > >
                          > > "Non" wrote:
                          > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                          > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                          > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                          > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                          > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                          > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                          > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                          > > answers to ask the master etc.
                          > > >
                          > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                          > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                          > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                          > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                          > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                          > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                          > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                          > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                          > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                          > > >
                          > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                          > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                          > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                          > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                          > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                          > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                          > > >
                          > > > Non ;)
                          > > >
                          > > > prometheus wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hello Janice,
                          > > > Yes, one would think that
                          > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                          > > > would, at least, attempt
                          > > > to live up to his PR, but
                          > > > that's not the case with
                          > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                          > > > out there by demonstrating
                          > > > his powers? It's not like
                          > > > he announced to the
                          > > > whole world that he was....
                          > > > oh wait, he did!
                          > > >
                          > > > That was a long time ago
                          > > > and he never did make
                          > > > any predictions as most
                          > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                          > > > made some predictions.
                          > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                          > > > haven't noticed and don't
                          > > > mine and that's why he
                          > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                          > > > to preform his responsibilities
                          > > > as a real prophet.
                          > > >
                          > > > Instead, Harold is very
                          > > > cautious of being too
                          > > > direct and understood.
                          > > > He'd rather have EKists
                          > > > fill-in the blanks and
                          > > > imagine what they want,
                          > > > need and expect until
                          > > > they go too far and have
                          > > > to have a behaviour
                          > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                          > > > That's why Klemp usually
                          > > > gives a very one dimensional
                          > > > perspective when he tells
                          > > > a story.
                          > > >
                          > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                          > > > why put too much
                          > > > effort into it! And, he
                          > > > figures that all he needs
                          > > > to do is the KISS thing
                          > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                          > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                          > > > will substitute Soul for
                          > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                          > > >
                          > > > It's really quite amazing
                          > > > how simple Klemp's
                          > > > redundant message is.
                          > > > If EKists would just compare
                          > > > Klemp's simple minded
                          > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                          > > > leaders one would have
                          > > > to wonder what they see
                          > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                          > > > but they just laugh at his
                          > > > quirkiness because he's
                          > > > operating on so many
                          > > > high planes of consciousness
                          > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                          > > >
                          > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                          > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                          > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                          > > > isn't even in the same ball
                          > > > park with the current Dali
                          > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                          > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                          > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                          > > > religion while Eckankar
                          > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                          > > > But, EKists need to compare
                          > > > the two leaders and how
                          > > > they present themselves
                          > > > and what they have to say.
                          > > >
                          > > > Will ECKists make the
                          > > > comparison? No, of course
                          > > > not! They won't even allow
                          > > > the door to be opened a
                          > > > crack because some light
                          > > > might get in and show
                          > > > them the Truth. They can't
                          > > > handle the Truth and
                          > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                          > > > It's much easier, besides,
                          > > > what would they replace
                          > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                          > > > responsibility to think for
                          > > > oneself and exercise free
                          > > > will. And, it would make
                          > > > life too lonely to lose all
                          > > > of those EK friends.
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                          > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                          > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                          > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                          > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                          > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                          > > > charlatan to me.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > The December 2012
                          > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                          > > > in the Ask the Master
                          > > > section are two interesting
                          > > > questions and answers.
                          > > >
                          > > > The first question has
                          > > > to do with Stress and
                          > > > how to overcome it.
                          > > >
                          > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                          > > > washy at best. He says
                          > > > that stress is "very
                          > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                          > > > stress is a good teacher."
                          > > >
                          > > > Klemp goes on to say
                          > > > that people can increase
                          > > > their tolerance to stress
                          > > > by eating healthy, getting
                          > > > enough sleep, and by
                          > > > "Reducing our overuse
                          > > > of electronic devices."
                          > > >
                          > > > In other words it seems
                          > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                          > > > roundabout way, to use
                          > > > moderation. After all,
                          > > > he's saying to reduce
                          > > > "overuse."
                          > > >
                          > > > Then, again, how does
                          > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                          > > > not use their computer
                          > > > 8 hours a day?
                          > > >
                          > > > The next question involves
                          > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                          > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                          > > > boy and two days later his
                          > > > mother translated (died).
                          > > > He indirectly asked if this
                          > > > new baby was his mother.
                          > > >
                          > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                          > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                          > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                          > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                          > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                          > > > anything at all can happen...
                          > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                          > > > son, everything is in accord
                          > > > with what is best for all around."
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          >
                        • tuza8
                          Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said she is 8 trillion
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
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                            Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said
                            she is 8 trillion initiate right now ,I dont believe. ,because from 1986 untill now just 27 years ,how can her achieve such level?is it possible once achieve that level in a short time?27 year?you are a master,so ,you know the answer. is it possible?pls tell me.
                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Tuza8,
                            > Welcome to the site!
                            > Thanks for the info
                            > on, yet, another religious
                            > scammer/fraud.
                            >
                            > I'm assuming that your
                            > questions are rhetorical.
                            >
                            > I found some info on this
                            > person and the following
                            > video:
                            >
                            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
                            >
                            > Here's more info that that
                            > I uncovered on Wikipedia:
                            >
                            > [Note the info within the (*****)
                            > It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                            > Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
                            >
                            > Quan Yin Method
                            >
                            > In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the 'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with which she is now associated.[10]
                            >
                            >
                            > *****
                            > Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
                            >
                            > Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best, easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                            > *****
                            >
                            >
                            > Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
                            >
                            > "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
                            >
                            > Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                            > Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                            > Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                            > Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                            > Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
                            >
                            > [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
                            >
                            > Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
                            >
                            > The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July 1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in 20 provinces and cities.[10]
                            >
                            > In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies of "heretical texts."[10]
                            >
                            > [edit]Criticism
                            >
                            > [edit]Environmental violations
                            > In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400 and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned to establish a park on the site.[33]
                            >
                            > Yes, I read where she is
                            > very popular in Taiwan
                            > and that she has 20,000
                            > followers world wide.
                            >
                            > She's half Vietnamese
                            > and Chinese and became
                            > a disciple of Thakar Singh
                            > and studied Surat Shabd
                            > Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                            > Light and Sound), but
                            > was, later, initiated by
                            > a Buddhist monk.
                            >
                            > All those who follow
                            > her are asked to become
                            > Vegetarians and initiation
                            > is free of charge. It doesn't
                            > appear that there is a
                            > Membership Donation/Fee
                            > like with Ecklankar, but
                            > she does make a lot of
                            > money by selling books,
                            > videos, etc. She also owns
                            > Vegetarian and Vegan
                            > Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                            > has jewelry outlets, and
                            > designs her own clothing
                            > line.
                            >
                            > Her name, Ching Hai,
                            > means "pure ocean."
                            >
                            > Google the "Quan Yin
                            > Method" to find out
                            > more about her daily
                            > meditation of the inner
                            > L & S.
                            >
                            > She's been described as a:
                            > "tireless publicity seeker;
                            > The Immaterial Girl... Part
                            > Buddha, Part Madonna;
                            > The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                            > ... merchandizing mystic
                            > from Taiwan."
                            >
                            > So, it seems that because
                            > of her Buddhist connections
                            > that she's associated with
                            > the more familiar Buddhism,
                            > however, she teaches the
                            > less known (outside India)
                            > Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                            > ECKankar.
                            >
                            > Funny, though, that her
                            > religion/enterprise had
                            > a later start than ECKankar
                            > but is making more money
                            > and bringing in more people.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > "tuza8" wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi prometheu,
                            > I agree what you said,
                            > they are some false master
                            > in public.
                            >
                            > recently one femala master,
                            > her name is master ching hai,
                            > master ching hai claim herself
                            > is 8 billion plane initiation level,
                            >
                            > do you believe it?
                            >
                            > in 1985 she become master
                            > and began taught mediatation
                            > on light and sound, whom said
                            > come from higher world into
                            > this lower world ,
                            >
                            > her also said come to this
                            > lower world many times,
                            > alway is a master for help
                            > people.
                            >
                            > do you believe?
                            >
                            > prometheus_973" wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                            > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                            > > > will ever become like, God,
                            > > > our imagined or possible
                            > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                            > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                            > > >
                            > > > But, it could be that the
                            > > > universe(s) just happened
                            > > > and that the remnants of
                            > > > other life forms were spread
                            > > > to this planet, and others,
                            > > > via space rubble... from
                            > > > destroyed civilizations
                            > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                            > > > intentional seeding by an
                            > > > advanced race... which was,
                            > > > itself, seeded by another
                            > > > advanced race etc.
                            > > >
                            > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                            > > > experiences we have
                            > > > are the result of
                            > > > interaction with the
                            > > > quantum mechanical
                            > > > field?
                            > > >
                            > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                            > > > that what really matters
                            > > > are relationships. It's our
                            > > > relationships with others,
                            > > > even strangers, that matter
                            > > > most. This is how we really
                            > > > learn and grow. Loving
                            > > > relationships are valuable.
                            > > >
                            > > > Klemp, and others like
                            > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                            > > > have arrested development;
                            > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                            > > > and are even psychopathic.
                            > > > They are incapable of learning,
                            > > > or caring about others (are
                            > > > unloving) and attempt to
                            > > > impede social progress and
                            > > > justice. They use the rest of
                            > > > us for their own personal
                            > > > greed and selfish desires.
                            > > >
                            > > > Then, again, this strife and
                            > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                            > > > created can make life interesting
                            > > > and a challenge, although,
                            > > > it can/will also be physically
                            > > > and emotionally painful.
                            > > >
                            > > > But, having a regular life
                            > > > without additional commitments
                            > > > and involvements can also
                            > > > offer rewarding experiences
                            > > > and insights. We are never
                            > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                            > > > not sure how peace of any
                            > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                            > > > will ever happen in a world
                            > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                            > > >
                            > > > One must care about everyone
                            > > > and have caring relationships
                            > > > with people in order for humankind
                            > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                            > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                            > > > I almost included animals, too,
                            > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                            > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                            > > > too.
                            > > >
                            > > > How can one really "care" about
                            > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                            > > > except to keep them away from
                            > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                            > > > people.
                            > > >
                            > > > When one thinks about it the
                            > > > definition of what's "normal"
                            > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                            > > > seem to be more pathological
                            > > > than the introverts don't you
                            > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                            > > > to force us introverts to become
                            > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                            > > > loves company I suppose or is
                            > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                            > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                            > > > is more intimidating.
                            > > >
                            > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                            > > > to worship and viewed as being
                            > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                            > > > from "us" being involved in our
                            > > > lives because of the differences
                            > > > we see in one another. This is
                            > > > why there are so many different
                            > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                            > > > and wrong.
                            > > >
                            > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                            > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                            > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                            > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                            > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                            > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                            > > > use God as our scape goat.
                            > > >
                            > > > There are major flaws with all
                            > > > of these religions and the so-called
                            > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                            > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                            > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                            > > > validation is that these various
                            > > > people in history/myth that the
                            > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                            > > > to have said or done some nice,
                            > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                            > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                            > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                            > > > have given them credibility, because
                            > > > it is believed and taught that
                            > > > only Divine Intercession could
                            > > > have been the source for their
                            > > > Divine Inspiration.
                            > > >
                            > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                            > > > today, who are not even followers
                            > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                            > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                            > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                            > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                            > > > of these major and minor religions.
                            > > > Many of these people inspired
                            > > > others by never giving up in time
                            > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                            > > > there weren't many other choices.
                            > > > Even those who did give up and
                            > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                            > > > maintained their faith and this
                            > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                            > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                            > > > for religions there are an awful
                            > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                            > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                            > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                            > > > with unconditional love for the
                            > > > master and you get a submissive
                            > > > control pattern as your reward.
                            > > > Buyer beware!
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                            > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                            > > > an experiment to see if we
                            > > > are all capable of evolving
                            > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                            > > > Are we to become more than
                            > > > merely a divine thought?
                            > > > Maybe there is something
                            > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                            > > > analogy."
                            > > >
                            > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                            > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                            > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                            > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                            > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                            > > >
                            > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                            > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                            > > >
                            > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                            > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                            > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                            > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                            > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                            > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                            > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                            > > >
                            > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                            > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                            > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                            > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                            > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                            > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                            > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                            > > >
                            > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                            > > > that it would ever be necessary.
                            > > >
                            > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                            > > >
                            > > > I AM
                            > > >
                            > > > prometheus wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Hello Non and All,
                            > > > > Thanks for the insightful
                            > > > > summary. I was exploring
                            > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                            > > > > charismatic Christian churches
                            > > > > and saw a reference to a
                            > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                            > > > >
                            > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                            > > > >
                            > > > > This person is mentioned
                            > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                            > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                            > > > > Faith.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Even when God seems to
                            > > > > turn his back and: causes
                            > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                            > > > > lost; cities attacked and
                            > > > > overrun by your enemies;
                            > > > > people brutalized, tortured
                            > > > > and killed, one is to have
                            > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                            > > > > reward for keeping this
                            > > > > faith. God's ego needs
                            > > > > you to believe in him
                            > > > > regardless of what pain
                            > > > > he allows to befall you.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > One needs to project
                            > > > > a sense of hope in order
                            > > > > to better endure life, as
                            > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > And, it's easier to face these
                            > > > > challenges when you believe
                            > > > > that God is on your side and
                            > > > > not that of your oppressor.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > However, does God really
                            > > > > take sides? It seems that God
                            > > > > is/was created in man's image.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                            > > > > an experiment to see if we
                            > > > > are all capable of evolving
                            > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                            > > > > Are we to become more than
                            > > > > merely a divine thought?
                            > > > > Maybe there is something
                            > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                            > > > > analogy.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                            > > > > has the belief that you (and your
                            > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                            > > > > deserved the punishments as
                            > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                            > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                            > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                            > > > > most religions see everyday
                            > > > > living and hardships as a test
                            > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                            > > > > to donate money to support
                            > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                            > > > > says and promises the same
                            > > > > or similar things in the imagined
                            > > > > hereafter.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Plus, each religion has always
                            > > > > blamed the non-believers for
                            > > > > the sins that they suffer under
                            > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                            > > > > and Klemp is more like these
                            > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                            > > > > admit.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Well, got to go now....
                            > > > > I just had some thoughts
                            > > > > to share.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Prometheus
                            > > > >
                            > > > "Non" wrote:
                            > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                            > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                            > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                            > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                            > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                            > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                            > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                            > > > answers to ask the master etc.
                            > > > >
                            > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                            > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                            > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                            > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                            > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                            > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                            > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                            > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                            > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                            > > > >
                            > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                            > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                            > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                            > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                            > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                            > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Non ;)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > prometheus wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Hello Janice,
                            > > > > Yes, one would think that
                            > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                            > > > > would, at least, attempt
                            > > > > to live up to his PR, but
                            > > > > that's not the case with
                            > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                            > > > > out there by demonstrating
                            > > > > his powers? It's not like
                            > > > > he announced to the
                            > > > > whole world that he was....
                            > > > > oh wait, he did!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > That was a long time ago
                            > > > > and he never did make
                            > > > > any predictions as most
                            > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                            > > > > made some predictions.
                            > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                            > > > > haven't noticed and don't
                            > > > > mine and that's why he
                            > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                            > > > > to preform his responsibilities
                            > > > > as a real prophet.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Instead, Harold is very
                            > > > > cautious of being too
                            > > > > direct and understood.
                            > > > > He'd rather have EKists
                            > > > > fill-in the blanks and
                            > > > > imagine what they want,
                            > > > > need and expect until
                            > > > > they go too far and have
                            > > > > to have a behaviour
                            > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                            > > > > That's why Klemp usually
                            > > > > gives a very one dimensional
                            > > > > perspective when he tells
                            > > > > a story.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                            > > > > why put too much
                            > > > > effort into it! And, he
                            > > > > figures that all he needs
                            > > > > to do is the KISS thing
                            > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                            > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                            > > > > will substitute Soul for
                            > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It's really quite amazing
                            > > > > how simple Klemp's
                            > > > > redundant message is.
                            > > > > If EKists would just compare
                            > > > > Klemp's simple minded
                            > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                            > > > > leaders one would have
                            > > > > to wonder what they see
                            > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                            > > > > but they just laugh at his
                            > > > > quirkiness because he's
                            > > > > operating on so many
                            > > > > high planes of consciousness
                            > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                            > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                            > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                            > > > > isn't even in the same ball
                            > > > > park with the current Dali
                            > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                            > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                            > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                            > > > > religion while Eckankar
                            > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                            > > > > But, EKists need to compare
                            > > > > the two leaders and how
                            > > > > they present themselves
                            > > > > and what they have to say.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Will ECKists make the
                            > > > > comparison? No, of course
                            > > > > not! They won't even allow
                            > > > > the door to be opened a
                            > > > > crack because some light
                            > > > > might get in and show
                            > > > > them the Truth. They can't
                            > > > > handle the Truth and
                            > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                            > > > > It's much easier, besides,
                            > > > > what would they replace
                            > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                            > > > > responsibility to think for
                            > > > > oneself and exercise free
                            > > > > will. And, it would make
                            > > > > life too lonely to lose all
                            > > > > of those EK friends.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Prometheus
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                            > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                            > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                            > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                            > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                            > > > > charlatan to me.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Prometheus wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The December 2012
                            > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                            > > > > in the Ask the Master
                            > > > > section are two interesting
                            > > > > questions and answers.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The first question has
                            > > > > to do with Stress and
                            > > > > how to overcome it.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                            > > > > washy at best. He says
                            > > > > that stress is "very
                            > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                            > > > > stress is a good teacher."
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Klemp goes on to say
                            > > > > that people can increase
                            > > > > their tolerance to stress
                            > > > > by eating healthy, getting
                            > > > > enough sleep, and by
                            > > > > "Reducing our overuse
                            > > > > of electronic devices."
                            > > > >
                            > > > > In other words it seems
                            > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                            > > > > roundabout way, to use
                            > > > > moderation. After all,
                            > > > > he's saying to reduce
                            > > > > "overuse."
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Then, again, how does
                            > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                            > > > > not use their computer
                            > > > > 8 hours a day?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The next question involves
                            > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                            > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                            > > > > boy and two days later his
                            > > > > mother translated (died).
                            > > > > He indirectly asked if this
                            > > > > new baby was his mother.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                            > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                            > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                            > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                            > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                            > > > > anything at all can happen...
                            > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                            > > > > son, everything is in accord
                            > > > > with what is best for all around."
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Prometheus
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello I AM, Janice and All, I read something where a teacher asked a child what she wanted to be when she grew up and she said Happy! Of course, that was the
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                              Hello I AM, Janice and All,
                              I read something where a
                              teacher asked a child what
                              she wanted to be when she
                              grew up and she said "Happy!"

                              Of course, that was the wrong
                              answer. Happiness is not taught
                              in school. Yet, happiness is
                              the end result of that which
                              is sought by those who are
                              taught how to think and work
                              for a living.

                              Personally, I'd rather the
                              various states of happiness
                              including contentment.

                              And yet the EK teachings
                              are completely Mental
                              Plane via:

                              The Books, like the Shariyats;
                              CDs; DVDs; Internet Videos;
                              Seminar Talks; the RESA
                              Hierarchy; Guidelines; Zoas;
                              Satsang Society and ESC
                              Board business meetings;
                              Workshop and Seminar
                              planning etc., to name
                              just a few of the Mental
                              Plane activities and the
                              basis for Eckankar's
                              existence.

                              Let's not forget those Mystic
                              Worlds, H.I. Letters, IROs,
                              EWS discussions, Membership
                              Donations. These realities
                              are not seen by ECKists
                              because they are too willing
                              to accept the propaganda
                              than think for themselves
                              and question authority.

                              I read a quote by Frank Zappa
                              "The difference between a
                              religion and a cult is how
                              much property they own."
                              It was something like that.
                              Look at the Mormon Church!

                              Thus, IMO, Eckankar will
                              always remain a cult. LOL!

                              Prometheus

                              iam freedom wrote:
                              I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should
                              not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
                              In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy
                              entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are
                              naturally more happy.

                              If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something
                              like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists
                              are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance
                              their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to
                              solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

                              I AM.......HAPPY LOL

                              "iam999freedom" wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                              regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                              meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                              >
                              > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                              sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                              point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                              >
                              > I AM
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see it
                              when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                              there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                              talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                              happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                              something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where people
                              there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were people
                              from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town came
                              together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does appear to
                              make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there is a kind
                              of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about. We
                              hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good. But when
                              people are hurt, there are always others
                              > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                              doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                              still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                              willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                              motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part of
                              what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                              everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                              by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                              strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                              broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                              takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                              the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.Â
                              After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                              > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they hide
                              from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to admit
                              that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle
                              like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge
                              to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths have a lot
                              of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to
                              see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your heart can break but
                              can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would rather know my heart will
                              hurt than not to feel anything for others at all. Strong loving hearts will
                              mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the
                              journey. Loving hearts can and will share the pain. Eckankar doesn't do
                              anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does that say about the lem and the
                              other leaders of
                              > > eckankar? I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can
                              even see. Bless all the loving eckist tonight.Â
                              > >
                              prometheus wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                              > > I'm not so sure that humans
                              > > will ever become like, God,
                              > > our imagined or possible
                              > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                              > > not in any lifetime soon.
                              > >
                              > > But, it could be that the
                              > > universe(s) just happened
                              > > and that the remnants of
                              > > other life forms were spread
                              > > to this planet, and others,
                              > > via space rubble... from
                              > > destroyed civilizations
                              > > and planets. Or, was it an
                              > > intentional seeding by an
                              > > advanced race... which was,
                              > > itself, seeded by another
                              > > advanced race etc.
                              > >
                              > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                              > > experiences we have
                              > > are the result of
                              > > interaction with the
                              > > quantum mechanical
                              > > field?
                              > >
                              > > Anyway, it seems to me
                              > > that what really matters
                              > > are relationships. It's our
                              > > relationships with others,
                              > > even strangers, that matter
                              > > most. This is how we really
                              > > learn and grow. Loving
                              > > relationships are valuable.
                              > >
                              > > Klemp, and others like
                              > > him, are: liars; posers;
                              > > have arrested development;
                              > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                              > > and are even psychopathic.
                              > > They are incapable of learning,
                              > > or caring about others (are
                              > > unloving) and attempt to
                              > > impede social progress and
                              > > justice. They use the rest of
                              > > us for their own personal
                              > > greed and selfish desires.
                              > >
                              > > Then, again, this strife and
                              > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                              > > created can make life interesting
                              > > and a challenge, although,
                              > > it can/will also be physically
                              > > and emotionally painful.
                              > >
                              > > But, having a regular life
                              > > without additional commitments
                              > > and involvements can also
                              > > offer rewarding experiences
                              > > and insights. We are never
                              > > all that alone. However, I'm
                              > > not sure how peace of any
                              > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                              > > will ever happen in a world
                              > > controlled by sociopaths.
                              > >
                              > > One must care about everyone
                              > > and have caring relationships
                              > > with people in order for humankind
                              > > to advance and survive. To me,
                              > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                              > > I almost included animals, too,
                              > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                              > > include "caring" about them (all)
                              > > too.
                              > >
                              > > How can one really "care" about
                              > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                              > > except to keep them away from
                              > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                              > > people.
                              > >
                              > > When one thinks about it the
                              > > definition of what's "normal"
                              > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                              > > seem to be more pathological
                              > > than the introverts don't you
                              > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                              > > to force us introverts to become
                              > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                              > > loves company I suppose or is
                              > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                              > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                              > > is more intimidating.
                              > >
                              > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                              > > to worship and viewed as being
                              > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                              > > from "us" being involved in our
                              > > lives because of the differences
                              > > we see in one another. This is
                              > > why there are so many different
                              > > religious dogmas of what's right
                              > > and wrong.
                              > >
                              > > Therefore, the differences in the
                              > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                              > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                              > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                              > > nor take responsibility for our own
                              > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                              > > use God as our scape goat.
                              > >
                              > > There are major flaws with all
                              > > of these religions and the so-called
                              > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                              > > all hearsay and the only thing
                              > > that, supposedly, gives them
                              > > validation is that these various
                              > > people in history/myth that the
                              > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                              > > to have said or done some nice,
                              > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                              > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                              > > time (being ancient) seems to
                              > > have given them credibility, because
                              > > it is believed and taught that
                              > > only Divine Intercession could
                              > > have been the source for their
                              > > Divine Inspiration.
                              > >
                              > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                              > > today, who are not even followers
                              > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                              > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                              > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                              > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                              > > of these major and minor religions.
                              > > Many of these people inspired
                              > > others by never giving up in time
                              > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                              > > there weren't many other choices.
                              > > Even those who did give up and
                              > > had bad things befall them, still,
                              > > maintained their faith and this
                              > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                              > > or saints. If this is the standard
                              > > for religions there are an awful
                              > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                              > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                              > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                              > > with unconditional love for the
                              > > master and you get a submissive
                              > > control pattern as your reward.
                              > > Buyer beware!
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                              > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                              > > an experiment to see if we
                              > > are all capable of evolving
                              > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                              > > Are we to become more than
                              > > merely a divine thought?
                              > > Maybe there is something
                              > > more to that piece of a mirror
                              > > analogy."
                              > >
                              > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                              > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                              > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                              > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
                              misinterpreting
                              > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                              > >
                              > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                              > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                              > >
                              > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                              > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
                              event.
                              > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
                              person
                              > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                              > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
                              moving
                              > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
                              more
                              > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                              > >
                              > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                              > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                              > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
                              expressions
                              > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                              > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                              > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                              > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                              > >
                              > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                              > > that it would ever be necessary.
                              > >
                              > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                              > >
                              > > I AM
                              > >
                              > > prometheus wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hello Non and All,
                              > > > Thanks for the insightful
                              > > > summary. I was exploring
                              > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                              > > > charismatic Christian churches
                              > > > and saw a reference to a
                              > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                              > > >
                              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                              > > >
                              > > > This person is mentioned
                              > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                              > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                              > > > Faith.
                              > > >
                              > > > Even when God seems to
                              > > > turn his back and: causes
                              > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                              > > > lost; cities attacked and
                              > > > overrun by your enemies;
                              > > > people brutalized, tortured
                              > > > and killed, one is to have
                              > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                              > > > reward for keeping this
                              > > > faith. God's ego needs
                              > > > you to believe in him
                              > > > regardless of what pain
                              > > > he allows to befall you.
                              > > >
                              > > > One needs to project
                              > > > a sense of hope in order
                              > > > to better endure life, as
                              > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                              > > >
                              > > > And, it's easier to face these
                              > > > challenges when you believe
                              > > > that God is on your side and
                              > > > not that of your oppressor.
                              > > >
                              > > > However, does God really
                              > > > take sides? It seems that God
                              > > > is/was created in man's image.
                              > > >
                              > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                              > > > an experiment to see if we
                              > > > are all capable of evolving
                              > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                              > > > Are we to become more than
                              > > > merely a divine thought?
                              > > > Maybe there is something
                              > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                              > > > analogy.
                              > > >
                              > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                              > > > has the belief that you (and your
                              > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                              > > > deserved the punishments as
                              > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                              > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                              > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                              > > > most religions see everyday
                              > > > living and hardships as a test
                              > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                              > > > to donate money to support
                              > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                              > > > says and promises the same
                              > > > or similar things in the imagined
                              > > > hereafter.
                              > > >
                              > > > Plus, each religion has always
                              > > > blamed the non-believers for
                              > > > the sins that they suffer under
                              > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                              > > > and Klemp is more like these
                              > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                              > > > admit.
                              > > >
                              > > > Well, got to go now....
                              > > > I just had some thoughts
                              > > > to share.
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus
                              > > >
                              > > "Non" wrote:
                              > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                              > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                              > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
                              anything
                              > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                              > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                              > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                              > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                              > > answers to ask the master etc.
                              > > >
                              > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                              > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                              > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                              > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
                              Dahlia
                              > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                              > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                              > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
                              religion,
                              > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
                              Struggle
                              > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                              > > >
                              > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                              > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                              > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
                              benign
                              > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
                              actually
                              > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
                              out
                              > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                              > > >
                              > > > Non ;)
                              > > >
                              > > > prometheus wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hello Janice,
                              > > > Yes, one would think that
                              > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                              > > > would, at least, attempt
                              > > > to live up to his PR, but
                              > > > that's not the case with
                              > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                              > > > out there by demonstrating
                              > > > his powers? It's not like
                              > > > he announced to the
                              > > > whole world that he was....
                              > > > oh wait, he did!
                              > > >
                              > > > That was a long time ago
                              > > > and he never did make
                              > > > any predictions as most
                              > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                              > > > made some predictions.
                              > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                              > > > haven't noticed and don't
                              > > > mine and that's why he
                              > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                              > > > to preform his responsibilities
                              > > > as a real prophet.
                              > > >
                              > > > Instead, Harold is very
                              > > > cautious of being too
                              > > > direct and understood.
                              > > > He'd rather have EKists
                              > > > fill-in the blanks and
                              > > > imagine what they want,
                              > > > need and expect until
                              > > > they go too far and have
                              > > > to have a behaviour
                              > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                              > > > That's why Klemp usually
                              > > > gives a very one dimensional
                              > > > perspective when he tells
                              > > > a story.
                              > > >
                              > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                              > > > why put too much
                              > > > effort into it! And, he
                              > > > figures that all he needs
                              > > > to do is the KISS thing
                              > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                              > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                              > > > will substitute Soul for
                              > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                              > > >
                              > > > It's really quite amazing
                              > > > how simple Klemp's
                              > > > redundant message is.
                              > > > If EKists would just compare
                              > > > Klemp's simple minded
                              > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                              > > > leaders one would have
                              > > > to wonder what they see
                              > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                              > > > but they just laugh at his
                              > > > quirkiness because he's
                              > > > operating on so many
                              > > > high planes of consciousness
                              > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                              > > >
                              > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                              > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                              > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                              > > > isn't even in the same ball
                              > > > park with the current Dali
                              > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                              > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                              > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                              > > > religion while Eckankar
                              > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                              > > > But, EKists need to compare
                              > > > the two leaders and how
                              > > > they present themselves
                              > > > and what they have to say.
                              > > >
                              > > > Will ECKists make the
                              > > > comparison? No, of course
                              > > > not! They won't even allow
                              > > > the door to be opened a
                              > > > crack because some light
                              > > > might get in and show
                              > > > them the Truth. They can't
                              > > > handle the Truth and
                              > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                              > > > It's much easier, besides,
                              > > > what would they replace
                              > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                              > > > responsibility to think for
                              > > > oneself and exercise free
                              > > > will. And, it would make
                              > > > life too lonely to lose all
                              > > > of those EK friends.
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
                              that
                              > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
                              say
                              > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he
                              is
                              > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
                              ask
                              > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                              > > > charlatan to me.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > The December 2012
                              > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                              > > > in the Ask the Master
                              > > > section are two interesting
                              > > > questions and answers.
                              > > >
                              > > > The first question has
                              > > > to do with Stress and
                              > > > how to overcome it.
                              > > >
                              > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                              > > > washy at best. He says
                              > > > that stress is "very
                              > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                              > > > stress is a good teacher."
                              > > >
                              > > > Klemp goes on to say
                              > > > that people can increase
                              > > > their tolerance to stress
                              > > > by eating healthy, getting
                              > > > enough sleep, and by
                              > > > "Reducing our overuse
                              > > > of electronic devices."
                              > > >
                              > > > In other words it seems
                              > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                              > > > roundabout way, to use
                              > > > moderation. After all,
                              > > > he's saying to reduce
                              > > > "overuse."
                              > > >
                              > > > Then, again, how does
                              > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                              > > > not use their computer
                              > > > 8 hours a day?
                              > > >
                              > > > The next question involves
                              > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                              > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                              > > > boy and two days later his
                              > > > mother translated (died).
                              > > > He indirectly asked if this
                              > > > new baby was his mother.
                              > > >
                              > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                              > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                              > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                              > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                              > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                              > > > anything at all can happen...
                              > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                              > > > son, everything is in accord
                              > > > with what is best for all around."
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Tusa8, Let me try to address your questions and concerns. tuza8 wrote: Hi, prometheus and all, Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai, I
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                                Hello Tusa8,
                                Let me try to address
                                your questions and
                                concerns.

                                "tuza8" wrote:
                                "Hi, prometheus and all,

                                Actually, I am former disciple
                                of master ching hai,

                                I dont think she is fake master,"

                                ***
                                ME: Yes, she is a FAKE!
                                You are more of a Master
                                than she is! Why? Because
                                you have more integrity,
                                more honesty, more
                                detachment, and fewer
                                desires than Ching Hai.

                                A true Master cannot be
                                a greedy Capitalist who
                                uses excuses and a slight
                                of hand (magic) to turn
                                appearances into illusion.
                                She is not humble nor is
                                she enlightened, especially,
                                in this Field of Action.
                                ***

                                "but regarding her level,
                                she said she is 8 trillion
                                initiate right now,"

                                ***
                                ME: A True Master does
                                not brag about being a
                                Master nor disclose that
                                they are a Master nor
                                do they disclose their
                                "initiations."
                                ***

                                "I dont believe. ,
                                because from 1986 untill
                                now just 27 years,

                                how can her achieve such
                                level?

                                is it possible once achieve
                                that level in a short time?
                                27 year?"

                                ***
                                ME: These outrageous claims
                                by Ching Hai are simply more
                                proof that she is a fraud. Those
                                who would believe such lies
                                have been tested and have
                                Passed her brainwashing test.

                                Many cult leaders, via increments,
                                will test the waters. They will
                                make a subtle, but illogical,
                                or exaggerated claim or statement
                                and see what happens. If it
                                goes unnoticed/unquestioned
                                or unchallenged and is accepted,
                                then, more and more lies and
                                outrageous claims and orders
                                can be made or handed out
                                until the only people left are
                                those glassy-eyed brainwashed
                                and loyal fanatics who have
                                stopped thinking for themselves.
                                ***

                                "you are a master, so,
                                you know the answer.

                                is it possible?
                                pls tell me."

                                ***
                                ME: I AM No Master.
                                Even if you were to
                                dream of me I would
                                not be a Master. You
                                are your own Master!
                                Dream of yourself as
                                a Master. This, in Truth,
                                is your secret identity.

                                Anyway, I've told you.

                                If you have ears to hear
                                you will hear and, I hope,
                                will understand my words
                                and advice.

                                I'm not perfect... but
                                neither is God. LOL!

                                Prometheus



                                prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Tuza8,
                                > Welcome to the site!
                                > Thanks for the info
                                > on, yet, another religious
                                > scammer/fraud.
                                >
                                > I'm assuming that your
                                > questions are rhetorical.
                                >
                                > I found some info on this
                                > person and the following
                                > video:
                                >
                                > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
                                >
                                > Here's more info that that
                                > I uncovered on Wikipedia:
                                >
                                > [Note the info within the (*****)
                                > It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                                > Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
                                >
                                > Quan Yin Method
                                >
                                > In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the
                                'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin
                                Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat
                                tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she
                                severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with
                                which she is now associated.[10]
                                >
                                >
                                > *****
                                > Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know
                                it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was
                                first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way
                                of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to
                                the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha
                                nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that
                                those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
                                >
                                > Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is
                                purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best,
                                easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves
                                meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that
                                she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged
                                repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                                > *****
                                >
                                >
                                > Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for
                                initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of
                                beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products
                                gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
                                >
                                > "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin
                                Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five
                                precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
                                >
                                > Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                                > Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                                > Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                                > Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                                > Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
                                >
                                > [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
                                >
                                > Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is
                                commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread
                                without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset
                                of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a
                                list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it
                                included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
                                >
                                > The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were
                                fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious
                                organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At
                                the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July
                                1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in
                                20 provinces and cities.[10]
                                >
                                > In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment
                                Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover
                                to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise
                                allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and
                                business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices
                                and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to
                                recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies
                                of "heretical texts."[10]
                                >
                                > [edit]Criticism
                                >
                                > [edit]Environmental violations
                                > In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in
                                Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally
                                constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the
                                pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400
                                and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The
                                private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by
                                police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned
                                to establish a park on the site.[33]
                                >
                                > Yes, I read where she is
                                > very popular in Taiwan
                                > and that she has 20,000
                                > followers world wide.
                                >
                                > She's half Vietnamese
                                > and Chinese and became
                                > a disciple of Thakar Singh
                                > and studied Surat Shabd
                                > Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                                > Light and Sound), but
                                > was, later, initiated by
                                > a Buddhist monk.
                                >
                                > All those who follow
                                > her are asked to become
                                > Vegetarians and initiation
                                > is free of charge. It doesn't
                                > appear that there is a
                                > Membership Donation/Fee
                                > like with Ecklankar, but
                                > she does make a lot of
                                > money by selling books,
                                > videos, etc. She also owns
                                > Vegetarian and Vegan
                                > Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                                > has jewelry outlets, and
                                > designs her own clothing
                                > line.
                                >
                                > Her name, Ching Hai,
                                > means "pure ocean."
                                >
                                > Google the "Quan Yin
                                > Method" to find out
                                > more about her daily
                                > meditation of the inner
                                > L & S.
                                >
                                > She's been described as a:
                                > "tireless publicity seeker;
                                > The Immaterial Girl... Part
                                > Buddha, Part Madonna;
                                > The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                                > ... merchandizing mystic
                                > from Taiwan."
                                >
                                > So, it seems that because
                                > of her Buddhist connections
                                > that she's associated with
                                > the more familiar Buddhism,
                                > however, she teaches the
                                > less known (outside India)
                                > Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                                > ECKankar.
                                >
                                > Funny, though, that her
                                > religion/enterprise had
                                > a later start than ECKankar
                                > but is making more money
                                > and bringing in more people.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                > "tuza8" wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi prometheu,
                                > I agree what you said,
                                > they are some false master
                                > in public.
                                >
                                > recently one femala master,
                                > her name is master ching hai,
                                > master ching hai claim herself
                                > is 8 billion plane initiation level,
                                >
                                > do you believe it?
                                >
                                > in 1985 she become master
                                > and began taught mediatation
                                > on light and sound, whom said
                                > come from higher world into
                                > this lower world ,
                                >
                                > her also said come to this
                                > lower world many times,
                                > alway is a master for help
                                > people.
                                >
                                > do you believe?
                              • Janice Pfeiffer
                                Hi I am, It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven t learned much
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                                  Hi I am,
                                  It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 

                                  --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

                                  From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM

                                   
                                  Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

                                  Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

                                  I AM

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                  > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                  > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                                  > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                  >
                                  > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: prometheus_973
                                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                  > I'm not so sure that humans
                                  > will ever become like, God,
                                  > our imagined or possible
                                  > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                  > not in any lifetime soon.
                                  >
                                  > But, it could be that the
                                  > universe(s) just happened
                                  > and that the remnants of
                                  > other life forms were spread
                                  > to this planet, and others,
                                  > via space rubble... from
                                  > destroyed civilizations
                                  > and planets. Or, was it an
                                  > intentional seeding by an
                                  > advanced race... which was,
                                  > itself, seeded by another
                                  > advanced race etc.
                                  >
                                  > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                  > experiences we have
                                  > are the result of
                                  > interaction with the
                                  > quantum mechanical
                                  > field?
                                  >
                                  > Anyway, it seems to me
                                  > that what really matters
                                  > are relationships. It's our
                                  > relationships with others,
                                  > even strangers, that matter
                                  > most. This is how we really
                                  > learn and grow. Loving
                                  > relationships are valuable.
                                  >
                                  > Klemp, and others like
                                  > him, are: liars; posers;
                                  > have arrested development;
                                  > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                  > and are even psychopathic.
                                  > They are incapable of learning,
                                  > or caring about others (are
                                  > unloving) and attempt to
                                  > impede social progress and
                                  > justice. They use the rest of
                                  > us for their own personal
                                  > greed and selfish desires.
                                  >
                                  > Then, again, this strife and
                                  > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                  > created can make life interesting
                                  > and a challenge, although,
                                  > it can/will also be physically
                                  > and emotionally painful.
                                  >
                                  > But, having a regular life
                                  > without additional commitments
                                  > and involvements can also
                                  > offer rewarding experiences
                                  > and insights. We are never
                                  > all that alone. However, I'm
                                  > not sure how peace of any
                                  > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                  > will ever happen in a world
                                  > controlled by sociopaths.
                                  >
                                  > One must care about everyone
                                  > and have caring relationships
                                  > with people in order for humankind
                                  > to advance and survive. To me,
                                  > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                  > I almost included animals, too,
                                  > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                  > include "caring" about them (all)
                                  > too.
                                  >
                                  > How can one really "care" about
                                  > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                  > except to keep them away from
                                  > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                  > people.
                                  >
                                  > When one thinks about it the
                                  > definition of what's "normal"
                                  > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                  > seem to be more pathological
                                  > than the introverts don't you
                                  > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                  > to force us introverts to become
                                  > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                  > loves company I suppose or is
                                  > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                  > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                  > is more intimidating.
                                  >
                                  > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                  > to worship and viewed as being
                                  > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                  > from "us" being involved in our
                                  > lives because of the differences
                                  > we see in one another. This is
                                  > why there are so many different
                                  > religious dogmas of what's right
                                  > and wrong.
                                  >
                                  > Therefore, the differences in the
                                  > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                  > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                  > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                  > nor take responsibility for our own
                                  > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                  > use God as our scape goat.
                                  >
                                  > There are major flaws with all
                                  > of these religions and the so-called
                                  > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                  > all hearsay and the only thing
                                  > that, supposedly, gives them
                                  > validation is that these various
                                  > people in history/myth that the
                                  > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                  > to have said or done some nice,
                                  > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                  > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                  > time (being ancient) seems to
                                  > have given them credibility, because
                                  > it is believed and taught that
                                  > only Divine Intercession could
                                  > have been the source for their
                                  > Divine Inspiration.
                                  >
                                  > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                  > today, who are not even followers
                                  > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                  > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                  > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                  > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                  > of these major and minor religions.
                                  > Many of these people inspired
                                  > others by never giving up in time
                                  > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                  > there weren't many other choices.
                                  > Even those who did give up and
                                  > had bad things befall them, still,
                                  > maintained their faith and this
                                  > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                  > or saints. If this is the standard
                                  > for religions there are an awful
                                  > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                  > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                  > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                  > with unconditional love for the
                                  > master and you get a submissive
                                  > control pattern as your reward.
                                  > Buyer beware!
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                  > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                  > an experiment to see if we
                                  > are all capable of evolving
                                  > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                  > Are we to become more than
                                  > merely a divine thought?
                                  > Maybe there is something
                                  > more to that piece of a mirror
                                  > analogy."
                                  >
                                  > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                  > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                  > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                  > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                  > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                  >
                                  > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                  > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                  >
                                  > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                  > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                  > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                  > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                  > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                  > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                  > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                  > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                  > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                  > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                  > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                  > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                  > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                  >
                                  > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                  > that it would ever be necessary.
                                  >
                                  > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                  >
                                  > I AM
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Non and All,
                                  > > Thanks for the insightful
                                  > > summary. I was exploring
                                  > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                  > > charismatic Christian churches
                                  > > and saw a reference to a
                                  > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                  > >
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                  > >
                                  > > This person is mentioned
                                  > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                  > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                  > > Faith.
                                  > >
                                  > > Even when God seems to
                                  > > turn his back and: causes
                                  > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                  > > lost; cities attacked and
                                  > > overrun by your enemies;
                                  > > people brutalized, tortured
                                  > > and killed, one is to have
                                  > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                  > > reward for keeping this
                                  > > faith. God's ego needs
                                  > > you to believe in him
                                  > > regardless of what pain
                                  > > he allows to befall you.
                                  > >
                                  > > One needs to project
                                  > > a sense of hope in order
                                  > > to better endure life, as
                                  > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                  > >
                                  > > And, it's easier to face these
                                  > > challenges when you believe
                                  > > that God is on your side and
                                  > > not that of your oppressor.
                                  > >
                                  > > However, does God really
                                  > > take sides? It seems that God
                                  > > is/was created in man's image.
                                  > >
                                  > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                  > > an experiment to see if we
                                  > > are all capable of evolving
                                  > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                  > > Are we to become more than
                                  > > merely a divine thought?
                                  > > Maybe there is something
                                  > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                  > > analogy.
                                  > >
                                  > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                  > > has the belief that you (and your
                                  > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                  > > deserved the punishments as
                                  > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                  > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                  > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                  > > most religions see everyday
                                  > > living and hardships as a test
                                  > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                  > > to donate money to support
                                  > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                  > > says and promises the same
                                  > > or similar things in the imagined
                                  > > hereafter.
                                  > >
                                  > > Plus, each religion has always
                                  > > blamed the non-believers for
                                  > > the sins that they suffer under
                                  > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                  > > and Klemp is more like these
                                  > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                  > > admit.
                                  > >
                                  > > Well, got to go now....
                                  > > I just had some thoughts
                                  > > to share.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > "Non" wrote:
                                  > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                  > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                  > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                  > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                  > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                  > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                  > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                  > answers to ask the master etc.
                                  > >
                                  > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                  > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                  > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                  > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                  > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                  > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                  > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                  > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                  > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                  > >
                                  > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                  > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                  > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                  > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                  > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                  > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                  > >
                                  > > Non ;)
                                  > >
                                  > > prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Janice,
                                  > > Yes, one would think that
                                  > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                  > > would, at least, attempt
                                  > > to live up to his PR, but
                                  > > that's not the case with
                                  > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                  > > out there by demonstrating
                                  > > his powers? It's not like
                                  > > he announced to the
                                  > > whole world that he was....
                                  > > oh wait, he did!
                                  > >
                                  > > That was a long time ago
                                  > > and he never did make
                                  > > any predictions as most
                                  > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                  > > made some predictions.
                                  > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                  > > haven't noticed and don't
                                  > > mine and that's why he
                                  > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                  > > to preform his responsibilities
                                  > > as a real prophet.
                                  > >
                                  > > Instead, Harold is very
                                  > > cautious of being too
                                  > > direct and understood.
                                  > > He'd rather have EKists
                                  > > fill-in the blanks and
                                  > > imagine what they want,
                                  > > need and expect until
                                  > > they go too far and have
                                  > > to have a behaviour
                                  > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                  > > That's why Klemp usually
                                  > > gives a very one dimensional
                                  > > perspective when he tells
                                  > > a story.
                                  > >
                                  > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                  > > why put too much
                                  > > effort into it! And, he
                                  > > figures that all he needs
                                  > > to do is the KISS thing
                                  > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                  > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                  > > will substitute Soul for
                                  > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                  > >
                                  > > It's really quite amazing
                                  > > how simple Klemp's
                                  > > redundant message is.
                                  > > If EKists would just compare
                                  > > Klemp's simple minded
                                  > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                  > > leaders one would have
                                  > > to wonder what they see
                                  > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                  > > but they just laugh at his
                                  > > quirkiness because he's
                                  > > operating on so many
                                  > > high planes of consciousness
                                  > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                  > >
                                  > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                  > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                  > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                  > > isn't even in the same ball
                                  > > park with the current Dali
                                  > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                  > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                  > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                  > > religion while Eckankar
                                  > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                  > > But, EKists need to compare
                                  > > the two leaders and how
                                  > > they present themselves
                                  > > and what they have to say.
                                  > >
                                  > > Will ECKists make the
                                  > > comparison? No, of course
                                  > > not! They won't even allow
                                  > > the door to be opened a
                                  > > crack because some light
                                  > > might get in and show
                                  > > them the Truth. They can't
                                  > > handle the Truth and
                                  > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                  > > It's much easier, besides,
                                  > > what would they replace
                                  > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                  > > responsibility to think for
                                  > > oneself and exercise free
                                  > > will. And, it would make
                                  > > life too lonely to lose all
                                  > > of those EK friends.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                  > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                  > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                  > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                  > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                  > > charlatan to me.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > The December 2012
                                  > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                  > > in the Ask the Master
                                  > > section are two interesting
                                  > > questions and answers.
                                  > >
                                  > > The first question has
                                  > > to do with Stress and
                                  > > how to overcome it.
                                  > >
                                  > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                  > > washy at best. He says
                                  > > that stress is "very
                                  > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                  > > stress is a good teacher."
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp goes on to say
                                  > > that people can increase
                                  > > their tolerance to stress
                                  > > by eating healthy, getting
                                  > > enough sleep, and by
                                  > > "Reducing our overuse
                                  > > of electronic devices."
                                  > >
                                  > > In other words it seems
                                  > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                  > > roundabout way, to use
                                  > > moderation. After all,
                                  > > he's saying to reduce
                                  > > "overuse."
                                  > >
                                  > > Then, again, how does
                                  > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                  > > not use their computer
                                  > > 8 hours a day?
                                  > >
                                  > > The next question involves
                                  > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                  > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                  > > boy and two days later his
                                  > > mother translated (died).
                                  > > He indirectly asked if this
                                  > > new baby was his mother.
                                  > >
                                  > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                  > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                  > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                  > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                  > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                  > > anything at all can happen...
                                  > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                  > > son, everything is in accord
                                  > > with what is best for all around."
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  >

                                • Non
                                  Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                    Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.

                                    Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.

                                    Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.

                                    Non ;)

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi I am,
                                    > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
                                    >
                                    > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: iam999freedom
                                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                    >
                                    > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                    >
                                    > I AM
                                    >
                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
                                    > there are always others
                                    > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
                                    > busy hiding their
                                    > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
                                    > other leaders of
                                    > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                    > >
                                    > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: prometheus_973
                                    > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                    > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >  
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                    > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                    > > will ever become like, God,
                                    > > our imagined or possible
                                    > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                    > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                    > >
                                    > > But, it could be that the
                                    > > universe(s) just happened
                                    > > and that the remnants of
                                    > > other life forms were spread
                                    > > to this planet, and others,
                                    > > via space rubble... from
                                    > > destroyed civilizations
                                    > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                    > > intentional seeding by an
                                    > > advanced race... which was,
                                    > > itself, seeded by another
                                    > > advanced race etc.
                                    > >
                                    > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                    > > experiences we have
                                    > > are the result of
                                    > > interaction with the
                                    > > quantum mechanical
                                    > > field?
                                    > >
                                    > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                    > > that what really matters
                                    > > are relationships. It's our
                                    > > relationships with others,
                                    > > even strangers, that matter
                                    > > most. This is how we really
                                    > > learn and grow. Loving
                                    > > relationships are valuable.
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp, and others like
                                    > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                    > > have arrested development;
                                    > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                    > > and are even psychopathic.
                                    > > They are incapable of learning,
                                    > > or caring about others (are
                                    > > unloving) and attempt to
                                    > > impede social progress and
                                    > > justice. They use the rest of
                                    > > us for their own personal
                                    > > greed and selfish desires.
                                    > >
                                    > > Then, again, this strife and
                                    > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                    > > created can make life interesting
                                    > > and a challenge, although,
                                    > > it can/will also be physically
                                    > > and emotionally painful.
                                    > >
                                    > > But, having a regular life
                                    > > without additional commitments
                                    > > and involvements can also
                                    > > offer rewarding experiences
                                    > > and insights. We are never
                                    > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                    > > not sure how peace of any
                                    > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                    > > will ever happen in a world
                                    > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                    > >
                                    > > One must care about everyone
                                    > > and have caring relationships
                                    > > with people in order for humankind
                                    > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                    > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                    > > I almost included animals, too,
                                    > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                    > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                    > > too.
                                    > >
                                    > > How can one really "care" about
                                    > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                    > > except to keep them away from
                                    > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                    > > people.
                                    > >
                                    > > When one thinks about it the
                                    > > definition of what's "normal"
                                    > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                    > > seem to be more pathological
                                    > > than the introverts don't you
                                    > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                    > > to force us introverts to become
                                    > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                    > > loves company I suppose or is
                                    > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                    > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                    > > is more intimidating.
                                    > >
                                    > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                    > > to worship and viewed as being
                                    > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                    > > from "us" being involved in our
                                    > > lives because of the differences
                                    > > we see in one another. This is
                                    > > why there are so many different
                                    > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                    > > and wrong.
                                    > >
                                    > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                    > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                    > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                    > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                    > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                    > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                    > > use God as our scape goat.
                                    > >
                                    > > There are major flaws with all
                                    > > of these religions and the so-called
                                    > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                    > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                    > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                    > > validation is that these various
                                    > > people in history/myth that the
                                    > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                    > > to have said or done some nice,
                                    > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                    > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                    > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                    > > have given them credibility, because
                                    > > it is believed and taught that
                                    > > only Divine Intercession could
                                    > > have been the source for their
                                    > > Divine Inspiration.
                                    > >
                                    > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                    > > today, who are not even followers
                                    > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                    > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                    > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                    > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                    > > of these major and minor religions.
                                    > > Many of these people inspired
                                    > > others by never giving up in time
                                    > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                    > > there weren't many other choices.
                                    > > Even those who did give up and
                                    > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                    > > maintained their faith and this
                                    > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                    > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                    > > for religions there are an awful
                                    > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                    > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                    > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                    > > with unconditional love for the
                                    > > master and you get a submissive
                                    > > control pattern as your reward.
                                    > > Buyer beware!
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                    > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                    > > an experiment to see if we
                                    > > are all capable of evolving
                                    > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                    > > Are we to become more than
                                    > > merely a divine thought?
                                    > > Maybe there is something
                                    > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                    > > analogy."
                                    > >
                                    > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                    > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                    > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                    > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                    > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                    > >
                                    > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                    > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                    > >
                                    > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                    > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                    > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                    > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                    > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                    > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                    > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                    > >
                                    > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                    > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                    > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                    > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                    > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                    > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                    > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                    > >
                                    > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                    > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                    > >
                                    > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                    > >
                                    > > I AM
                                    > >
                                    > > prometheus wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hello Non and All,
                                    > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                    > > > summary. I was exploring
                                    > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                    > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                    > > > and saw a reference to a
                                    > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                    > > >
                                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                    > > >
                                    > > > This person is mentioned
                                    > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                    > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                    > > > Faith.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Even when God seems to
                                    > > > turn his back and: causes
                                    > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                    > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                    > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                    > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                    > > > and killed, one is to have
                                    > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                    > > > reward for keeping this
                                    > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                    > > > you to believe in him
                                    > > > regardless of what pain
                                    > > > he allows to befall you.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > One needs to project
                                    > > > a sense of hope in order
                                    > > > to better endure life, as
                                    > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                    > > > challenges when you believe
                                    > > > that God is on your side and
                                    > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > However, does God really
                                    > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                    > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                    > > > an experiment to see if we
                                    > > > are all capable of evolving
                                    > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                    > > > Are we to become more than
                                    > > > merely a divine thought?
                                    > > > Maybe there is something
                                    > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                    > > > analogy.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                    > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                    > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                    > > > deserved the punishments as
                                    > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                    > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                    > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                    > > > most religions see everyday
                                    > > > living and hardships as a test
                                    > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                    > > > to donate money to support
                                    > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                    > > > says and promises the same
                                    > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                    > > > hereafter.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                    > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                    > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                    > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                    > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                    > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                    > > > admit.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Well, got to go now....
                                    > > > I just had some thoughts
                                    > > > to share.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus
                                    > > >
                                    > > "Non" wrote:
                                    > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                    > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                    > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                    > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                    > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                    > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                    > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                    > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                    > > >
                                    > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                    > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                    > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                    > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                    > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                    > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                    > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                    > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                    > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                    > > >
                                    > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                    > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                    > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                    > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                    > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                    > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Non ;)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > prometheus wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hello Janice,
                                    > > > Yes, one would think that
                                    > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                    > > > would, at least, attempt
                                    > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                    > > > that's not the case with
                                    > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                    > > > out there by demonstrating
                                    > > > his powers? It's not like
                                    > > > he announced to the
                                    > > > whole world that he was....
                                    > > > oh wait, he did!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > That was a long time ago
                                    > > > and he never did make
                                    > > > any predictions as most
                                    > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                    > > > made some predictions.
                                    > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                    > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                    > > > mine and that's why he
                                    > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                    > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                    > > > as a real prophet.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                    > > > cautious of being too
                                    > > > direct and understood.
                                    > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                    > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                    > > > imagine what they want,
                                    > > > need and expect until
                                    > > > they go too far and have
                                    > > > to have a behaviour
                                    > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                    > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                    > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                    > > > perspective when he tells
                                    > > > a story.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                    > > > why put too much
                                    > > > effort into it! And, he
                                    > > > figures that all he needs
                                    > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                    > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                    > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                    > > > will substitute Soul for
                                    > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It's really quite amazing
                                    > > > how simple Klemp's
                                    > > > redundant message is.
                                    > > > If EKists would just compare
                                    > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                    > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                    > > > leaders one would have
                                    > > > to wonder what they see
                                    > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                    > > > but they just laugh at his
                                    > > > quirkiness because he's
                                    > > > operating on so many
                                    > > > high planes of consciousness
                                    > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                    > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                    > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                    > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                    > > > park with the current Dali
                                    > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                    > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                    > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                    > > > religion while Eckankar
                                    > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                    > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                    > > > the two leaders and how
                                    > > > they present themselves
                                    > > > and what they have to say.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Will ECKists make the
                                    > > > comparison? No, of course
                                    > > > not! They won't even allow
                                    > > > the door to be opened a
                                    > > > crack because some light
                                    > > > might get in and show
                                    > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                    > > > handle the Truth and
                                    > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                    > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                    > > > what would they replace
                                    > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                    > > > responsibility to think for
                                    > > > oneself and exercise free
                                    > > > will. And, it would make
                                    > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                    > > > of those EK friends.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                    > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                    > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                    > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                    > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                    > > > charlatan to me.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The December 2012
                                    > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                    > > > in the Ask the Master
                                    > > > section are two interesting
                                    > > > questions and answers.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The first question has
                                    > > > to do with Stress and
                                    > > > how to overcome it.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                    > > > washy at best. He says
                                    > > > that stress is "very
                                    > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                    > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                    > > > that people can increase
                                    > > > their tolerance to stress
                                    > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                    > > > enough sleep, and by
                                    > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                    > > > of electronic devices."
                                    > > >
                                    > > > In other words it seems
                                    > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                    > > > roundabout way, to use
                                    > > > moderation. After all,
                                    > > > he's saying to reduce
                                    > > > "overuse."
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Then, again, how does
                                    > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                    > > > not use their computer
                                    > > > 8 hours a day?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The next question involves
                                    > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                    > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                    > > > boy and two days later his
                                    > > > mother translated (died).
                                    > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                    > > > new baby was his mother.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                    > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                    > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                    > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                    > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                    > > > anything at all can happen...
                                    > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                    > > > son, everything is in accord
                                    > > > with what is best for all around."
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • etznab18
                                    However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It states that the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                      "However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It states that "the spiritual workers created man and placed
                                      within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul."

                                      ***

                                      Then the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul; and man became like the living gods of the spirit worlds with intellectual powers, physical strength, and Soul. ... ." - S.K.S., Book One, p. 44

                                      Compare with:

                                      "The Seventh Command: And when this was done, the Seventh Intellect said: 'Let us make man after our own fashion and let us endow him with powers to rule this earth.' Then the Seven-Headed Intellect, The Creator of All Things throughout the Universe, created man and placed within his body a living, imperishable spirit, and man became like the Creator in intellectual power."

                                      http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ssm/ssm07.htm

                                      and (this is the older version)

                                      "Then Narayana, the Seven-headed Intellect, the Creator of all things throughout the universe, created man, and placed within his body a living, imperishable spirit, and man became like Narayana in intellectual power. Then was creation complete."

                                      http://campbellmgold.com/archive_esoteric/lost_continent_mu_churchward_1931.pdf

                                      Judging by the number of other similarities between writings of Twitchell and Churchward (concerning creation and Lemuria, etc.) I wonder if that quote by Twitchell was not entirely original. In fact, I believe Churchward's first book (Lost Continent of Mu) was part of the recommended reading list mentioned in LTG.

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello I Am,
                                      > Okay, let me give it
                                      > a shot and use some
                                      > excerpts etc.
                                      >
                                      > HK's talking about
                                      > psychological studies
                                      > using identical twins
                                      > (not conjoined) that
                                      > were separated soon
                                      > after birth. They grew
                                      > up elsewhere and had
                                      > different influences
                                      > but dressed the same
                                      > and had the same type
                                      > of dog and gave the
                                      > dog the same name etc.,
                                      > etc.
                                      >
                                      > Thus, it seems that
                                      > Free Will relies upon
                                      > genetics (nature) more
                                      > than it does upon nurture,
                                      > although, HK says that
                                      > Yogi Berra stated that
                                      > "in theory, practice doesn't
                                      > matter; in practice, it does."
                                      >
                                      > BTW- According to Klemp
                                      > "The Lords of Karma have
                                      > selected a body with the
                                      > appropriate genes for each
                                      > student."
                                      >
                                      > However, HK has somewhat
                                      > contradicted what is in CH.
                                      > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                                      > that "the spiritual workers
                                      > created man and placed
                                      > within him a living imperishable
                                      > Spirit, called Soul."
                                      >
                                      > There is no other mention
                                      > of these "spiritual workers."
                                      >
                                      > Anywho-
                                      >
                                      > HK is so clever the way
                                      > he'll twist a quote to add
                                      > even more confusion to
                                      > his message of absolute
                                      > servitude and obedience.
                                      >
                                      > I counted HK using "But"
                                      > four times. In an old H.I.
                                      > Letter he said never to
                                      > use "But" with one another
                                      > and that it was a nail in
                                      > the coffin of invention and
                                      > took away from what was
                                      > previously said.
                                      >
                                      > HK:
                                      > "BUT they dug in their heels
                                      > at the finding that such twins'
                                      > IQs were nearly as similar as
                                      > their heights."
                                      >
                                      > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                                      > set. A kind owner may let it out
                                      > into the room on occasion. BUT
                                      > it is still in a house."
                                      >
                                      > "Researchers, too, can advance
                                      > only to a fixed point in their studies
                                      > of what elements make up a whole
                                      > individual. BUT they do not have
                                      > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                                      > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                                      >
                                      > Funny that Klemp states that he
                                      > holds "a magical key" to control
                                      > others like a Black Magician would.
                                      >
                                      > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                                      > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                                      > must have the right kind and amount
                                      > of daily experiences."
                                      >
                                      > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                                      > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                                      > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                                      > the "right kind and amount of daily
                                      > experiences."
                                      >
                                      > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                                      > doesn't like science and psychologists
                                      > since getting locked up in an asylum
                                      > and having to "play-the-game" to
                                      > be released early.
                                      >
                                      > HK states that "Real free will rests
                                      > entirely on trusting the Master's
                                      > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                                      > many choices to make in all things
                                      > human and divine."
                                      >
                                      > In other words do as I say not
                                      > as I do and there is no such
                                      > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                                      > Does that kind sound like Cult
                                      > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                                      > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                                      > that "He gives suggestions" and
                                      > "seldom does he issue directives...
                                      > True Free Will of an individual
                                      > stands upon the Mahanta's
                                      > guidance."
                                      >
                                      > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                                      > as he speaks from experience:
                                      > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                                      > ingrained ideas about patterns
                                      > against them. A subject thinks
                                      > he has the quick mind and eyes
                                      > to catch a Magician in an act,
                                      > even while he is being unburdened
                                      > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                                      > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                                      > played upon people by illusion."
                                      >
                                      > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                                      > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                                      > exercises," but write those snail-
                                      > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                                      > thinking and so I can use those
                                      > stories for my next book.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > iam999freedom wrote:
                                      > Hi Prometheus,
                                      >
                                      > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                                      > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                                      > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                                      >
                                      > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                                      > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                                      > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                                      > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                                      > different character than the other."
                                      >
                                      > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                                      > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next morning
                                      > on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                                      >
                                      > I still have yet to receive a response.
                                      >
                                      > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic Note
                                      > that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks,
                                      > I AM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > prometheus_wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > The December 2012
                                      > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                      > > in the Ask the Master
                                      > > section are two interesting
                                      > > questions and answers.
                                      > >
                                      > > The first question has
                                      > > to do with Stress and
                                      > > how to overcome it.
                                      > >
                                      > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                      > > washy at best. He says
                                      > > that stress is "very
                                      > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                      > > stress is a good teacher."
                                      > >
                                      > > Klemp goes on to say
                                      > > that people increase
                                      > > their tolerance to stress
                                      > > by eating healthy, getting
                                      > > enough sleep, and by
                                      > > "Reducing our overuse
                                      > > of electronic devices."
                                      > >
                                      > > In other words it seems
                                      > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                      > > roundabout way, to use
                                      > > moderation. After all,
                                      > > he's saying to reduce
                                      > > "overuse."
                                      > >
                                      > > Then, again, how does
                                      > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                      > > not use their computer
                                      > > 8 hours a day?
                                      > >
                                      > > The next question involves
                                      > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                      > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                      > > boy and two days later his
                                      > > mother translated (died).
                                      > > He indirectly asked if this
                                      > > new baby was his mother.
                                      > >
                                      > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                      > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                      > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                      > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                      > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                      > > anything at all can happen...
                                      > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                      > > son, everything is in accord
                                      > > with what is best for all around."
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      >
                                    • etznab18
                                      Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                        Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a number of things. Another study suggested that "even one's political leanings are largely shaped by genes (not by 'free will,' or choice.)"

                                        OK? Got the picture now? Combine that with the first paragraph of Harold's article and with the other paragraphs that mentioned free will, illusion and influence of genes.

                                        My impression from the article was that genes were considered to have great influence upon people's behaviors, even moreso than upbringing, or life's experiences.

                                        Now, I've seen studies where twins grow up in different environments where one gets cancer and the other doesn't. Also, I think there is a lot of "dark space" about the physiology of genes (just like there is a lot of "dark space" in the universe ... the majority, some think.) Genes, IMO, don't matter so much as whether the genes are "turned on" or not. There are lots and lots of genes (or DNA) that remain inactive I think, what they call junk DNA, and my guess is that life experiences and upbringing DO have an effect on shaping individual character. Even with identical twins.

                                        The idea that genes have such a great influence on behavior is just relative to any number of other things, IMO.

                                        I had to wonder, was Harold speaking about Eugenics? or something similar?

                                        Consider the following:

                                        Doubts on genetic mutation triggered by inheritance

                                        "The first major challenge to conventional eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was made in 1915 by Thomas Hunt Morgan, who demonstrated the event of genetic mutation occurring outside of inheritance involving the discovery of the hatching of a fruit fly with white eyes from a family and ancestry of the red-eyed Drosophila melanogaster species of fruit fly.[36] Morgan claimed that this demonstrated that major genetic changes occurred outside of inheritance and that the concept of eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was, to some extent, not completely scientifically accurate.[36]

                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Doubts_on_genetic_mutation_triggered_by_inheritance

                                        "A gene is a molecular unit of heredity of a living organism. It is a name given to some stretches of DNA and RNA that code for a polypeptide or for an RNA chain that has a function in the organism. [... .]"

                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes#Changing_concept

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello I AM and All,
                                        > Actually Klemp did cite some
                                        > studies and I Googled it myself
                                        > and saw that there is proof that
                                        > identical twins share similarities.
                                        > The mirrored behaviors could
                                        > be genetical with brain frequencies
                                        > and brain function being the
                                        > same due to a quantum mechanical
                                        > influence. I threw that last one
                                        > in on my own, but who knows?
                                        >
                                        > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
                                        > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
                                        > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
                                        > use the Lords of Karma ruse
                                        > which, BTW, is not solely owned
                                        > by Eckankar.
                                        >
                                        > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
                                        > to get new members by promising
                                        > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
                                        > Liberation" but then he switches
                                        > it up and demands (suggests)
                                        > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
                                        > Team participation in order to,
                                        > possibly, get promoted and receive
                                        > "Spiritual Rewards."
                                        >
                                        > It is funny that Klemp claims to
                                        > take "Free Will" away from Souls
                                        > who join Eckankar and follow him.
                                        > Does this mean that those Souls
                                        > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
                                        > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > iam999freedom wrote:
                                        > Hi Prometheus,
                                        > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
                                        > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
                                        > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
                                        > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
                                        > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
                                        > the environment.
                                        >
                                        > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
                                        > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
                                        > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
                                        >
                                        > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
                                        > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
                                        > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
                                        >
                                        > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
                                        > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
                                        > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
                                        > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
                                        >
                                        > I AM
                                        >
                                        > prometheus_973" wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello I Am,
                                        > > Okay, let me give it
                                        > > a shot and use some
                                        > > excerpts etc.
                                        > >
                                        > > HK's talking about
                                        > > psychological studies
                                        > > using identical twins
                                        > > (not conjoined) that
                                        > > were separated soon
                                        > > after birth. They grew
                                        > > up elsewhere and had
                                        > > different influences
                                        > > but dressed the same
                                        > > and had the same type
                                        > > of dog and gave the
                                        > > dog the same name etc.,
                                        > > etc.
                                        > >
                                        > > Thus, it seems that
                                        > > Free Will relies upon
                                        > > genetics (nature) more
                                        > > than it does upon nurture,
                                        > > although, HK says that
                                        > > Yogi Berra stated that
                                        > > "in theory, practice doesn't
                                        > > matter; in practice, it does."
                                        > >
                                        > > BTW- According to Klemp
                                        > > "The Lords of Karma have
                                        > > selected a body with the
                                        > > appropriate genes for each
                                        > > student."
                                        > >
                                        > > However, HK has somewhat
                                        > > contradicted what is in CH.
                                        > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                                        > > that "the spiritual workers
                                        > > created man and placed
                                        > > within him a living imperishable
                                        > > Spirit, called Soul."
                                        > >
                                        > > There is no other mention
                                        > > of these "spiritual workers."
                                        > >
                                        > > Anywho-
                                        > >
                                        > > HK is so clever the way
                                        > > he'll twist a quote to add
                                        > > even more confusion to
                                        > > his message of absolute
                                        > > servitude and obedience.
                                        > >
                                        > > I counted HK using "But"
                                        > > four times. In an old H.I.
                                        > > Letter he said never to
                                        > > use "But" with one another
                                        > > and that it was a nail in
                                        > > the coffin of invention and
                                        > > took away from what was
                                        > > previously said.
                                        > >
                                        > > HK:
                                        > > "BUT they dug in their heels
                                        > > at the finding that such twins'
                                        > > IQs were nearly as similar as
                                        > > their heights."
                                        > >
                                        > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                                        > > set. A kind owner may let it out
                                        > > into the room on occasion. BUT
                                        > > it is still in a house."
                                        > >
                                        > > "Researchers, too, can advance
                                        > > only to a fixed point in their studies
                                        > > of what elements make up a whole
                                        > > individual. BUT they do not have
                                        > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                                        > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                                        > >
                                        > > Funny that Klemp states that he
                                        > > holds "a magical key" to control
                                        > > others like a Black Magician would.
                                        > >
                                        > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                                        > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                                        > > must have the right kind and amount
                                        > > of daily experiences."
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                                        > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                                        > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                                        > > the "right kind and amount of daily
                                        > > experiences."
                                        > >
                                        > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                                        > > doesn't like science and psychologists
                                        > > since getting locked up in an asylum
                                        > > and having to "play-the-game" to
                                        > > be released early.
                                        > >
                                        > > HK states that "Real free will rests
                                        > > entirely on trusting the Master's
                                        > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                                        > > many choices to make in all things
                                        > > human and divine."
                                        > >
                                        > > In other words do as I say not
                                        > > as I do and there is no such
                                        > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                                        > > Does that kind sound like Cult
                                        > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                                        > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                                        > > that "He gives suggestions" and
                                        > > "seldom does he issue directives...
                                        > > True Free Will of an individual
                                        > > stands upon the Mahanta's
                                        > > guidance."
                                        > >
                                        > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                                        > > as he speaks from experience:
                                        > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                                        > > ingrained ideas about patterns
                                        > > against them. A subject thinks
                                        > > he has the quick mind and eyes
                                        > > to catch a Magician in an act,
                                        > > even while he is being unburdened
                                        > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                                        > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                                        > > played upon people by illusion."
                                        > >
                                        > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                                        > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                                        > > exercises," but write those snail-
                                        > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                                        > > thinking and so I can use those
                                        > > stories for my next book.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > iam999freedom wrote:
                                        > > Hi Prometheus,
                                        > >
                                        > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                                        > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                                        > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                                        > >
                                        > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                                        > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                                        > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                                        > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                                        > > different character than the other."
                                        > >
                                        > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                                        > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
                                        > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                                        > >
                                        > > I still have yet to receive a response.
                                        > >
                                        > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
                                        > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                                        > >
                                        > > Thanks,
                                        > > I AM
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > prometheus_wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The December 2012
                                        > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                        > > > in the Ask the Master
                                        > > > section are two interesting
                                        > > > questions and answers.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The first question has
                                        > > > to do with Stress and
                                        > > > how to overcome it.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                        > > > washy at best. He says
                                        > > > that stress is "very
                                        > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                        > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                        > > > that people increase
                                        > > > their tolerance to stress
                                        > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                        > > > enough sleep, and by
                                        > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                        > > > of electronic devices."
                                        > > >
                                        > > > In other words it seems
                                        > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                        > > > roundabout way, to use
                                        > > > moderation. After all,
                                        > > > he's saying to reduce
                                        > > > "overuse."
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Then, again, how does
                                        > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                        > > > not use their computer
                                        > > > 8 hours a day?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The next question involves
                                        > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                        > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                        > > > boy and two days later his
                                        > > > mother translated (died).
                                        > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                        > > > new baby was his mother.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                        > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                        > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                        > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                        > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                        > > > anything at all can happen...
                                        > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                        > > > son, everything is in accord
                                        > > > with what is best for all around."
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Non
                                        Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 12, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated as far as religion may be growing. :)

                                          Non ;)

                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.
                                          >
                                          > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.
                                          >
                                          > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                          >
                                          > Non ;)
                                          >
                                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi I am,
                                          > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
                                          > >
                                          > > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > From: iam999freedom
                                          > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                          > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >  
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                          > >
                                          > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                          > >
                                          > > I AM
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
                                          > > there are always others
                                          > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
                                          > > busy hiding their
                                          > > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
                                          > > other leaders of
                                          > > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > From: prometheus_973
                                          > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                          > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >  
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                          > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                          > > > will ever become like, God,
                                          > > > our imagined or possible
                                          > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                          > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But, it could be that the
                                          > > > universe(s) just happened
                                          > > > and that the remnants of
                                          > > > other life forms were spread
                                          > > > to this planet, and others,
                                          > > > via space rubble... from
                                          > > > destroyed civilizations
                                          > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                          > > > intentional seeding by an
                                          > > > advanced race... which was,
                                          > > > itself, seeded by another
                                          > > > advanced race etc.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                          > > > experiences we have
                                          > > > are the result of
                                          > > > interaction with the
                                          > > > quantum mechanical
                                          > > > field?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                          > > > that what really matters
                                          > > > are relationships. It's our
                                          > > > relationships with others,
                                          > > > even strangers, that matter
                                          > > > most. This is how we really
                                          > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                          > > > relationships are valuable.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Klemp, and others like
                                          > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                          > > > have arrested development;
                                          > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                          > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                          > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                          > > > or caring about others (are
                                          > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                          > > > impede social progress and
                                          > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                          > > > us for their own personal
                                          > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                          > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                          > > > created can make life interesting
                                          > > > and a challenge, although,
                                          > > > it can/will also be physically
                                          > > > and emotionally painful.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But, having a regular life
                                          > > > without additional commitments
                                          > > > and involvements can also
                                          > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                          > > > and insights. We are never
                                          > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                          > > > not sure how peace of any
                                          > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                          > > > will ever happen in a world
                                          > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > One must care about everyone
                                          > > > and have caring relationships
                                          > > > with people in order for humankind
                                          > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                          > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                          > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                          > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                          > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                          > > > too.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > How can one really "care" about
                                          > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                          > > > except to keep them away from
                                          > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                          > > > people.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > When one thinks about it the
                                          > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                          > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                          > > > seem to be more pathological
                                          > > > than the introverts don't you
                                          > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                          > > > to force us introverts to become
                                          > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                          > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                          > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                          > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                          > > > is more intimidating.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                          > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                          > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                          > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                          > > > lives because of the differences
                                          > > > we see in one another. This is
                                          > > > why there are so many different
                                          > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                          > > > and wrong.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                          > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                          > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                          > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                          > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                          > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                          > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > There are major flaws with all
                                          > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                          > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                          > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                          > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                          > > > validation is that these various
                                          > > > people in history/myth that the
                                          > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                          > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                          > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                          > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                          > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                          > > > have given them credibility, because
                                          > > > it is believed and taught that
                                          > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                          > > > have been the source for their
                                          > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                          > > > today, who are not even followers
                                          > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                          > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                          > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                          > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                          > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                          > > > Many of these people inspired
                                          > > > others by never giving up in time
                                          > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                          > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                          > > > Even those who did give up and
                                          > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                          > > > maintained their faith and this
                                          > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                          > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                          > > > for religions there are an awful
                                          > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                          > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                          > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                          > > > with unconditional love for the
                                          > > > master and you get a submissive
                                          > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                          > > > Buyer beware!
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                          > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                          > > > an experiment to see if we
                                          > > > are all capable of evolving
                                          > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                          > > > Are we to become more than
                                          > > > merely a divine thought?
                                          > > > Maybe there is something
                                          > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                          > > > analogy."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                          > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                          > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                          > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                          > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                          > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                          > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                          > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                          > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                          > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                          > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                          > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                          > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                          > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                          > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                          > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                          > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                          > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                          > > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I AM
                                          > > >
                                          > > > prometheus wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Hello Non and All,
                                          > > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                          > > > > summary. I was exploring
                                          > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                          > > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                          > > > > and saw a reference to a
                                          > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > This person is mentioned
                                          > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                          > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                          > > > > Faith.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Even when God seems to
                                          > > > > turn his back and: causes
                                          > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                          > > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                          > > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                          > > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                          > > > > and killed, one is to have
                                          > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                          > > > > reward for keeping this
                                          > > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                          > > > > you to believe in him
                                          > > > > regardless of what pain
                                          > > > > he allows to befall you.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > One needs to project
                                          > > > > a sense of hope in order
                                          > > > > to better endure life, as
                                          > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                          > > > > challenges when you believe
                                          > > > > that God is on your side and
                                          > > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > However, does God really
                                          > > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                          > > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                          > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                          > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                          > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                          > > > > Are we to become more than
                                          > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                          > > > > Maybe there is something
                                          > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                          > > > > analogy.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                          > > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                          > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                          > > > > deserved the punishments as
                                          > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                          > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                          > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                          > > > > most religions see everyday
                                          > > > > living and hardships as a test
                                          > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                          > > > > to donate money to support
                                          > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                          > > > > says and promises the same
                                          > > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                          > > > > hereafter.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                          > > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                          > > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                          > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                          > > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                          > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                          > > > > admit.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Well, got to go now....
                                          > > > > I just had some thoughts
                                          > > > > to share.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Prometheus
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > "Non" wrote:
                                          > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                          > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                          > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                          > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                          > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                          > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                          > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                          > > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                          > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                          > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                          > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                          > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                          > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                          > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                          > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                          > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                          > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                          > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                          > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                          > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                          > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Non ;)
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > prometheus wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Hello Janice,
                                          > > > > Yes, one would think that
                                          > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                          > > > > would, at least, attempt
                                          > > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                          > > > > that's not the case with
                                          > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                          > > > > out there by demonstrating
                                          > > > > his powers? It's not like
                                          > > > > he announced to the
                                          > > > > whole world that he was....
                                          > > > > oh wait, he did!
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > That was a long time ago
                                          > > > > and he never did make
                                          > > > > any predictions as most
                                          > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                          > > > > made some predictions.
                                          > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                          > > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                          > > > > mine and that's why he
                                          > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                          > > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                          > > > > as a real prophet.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                          > > > > cautious of being too
                                          > > > > direct and understood.
                                          > > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                          > > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                          > > > > imagine what they want,
                                          > > > > need and expect until
                                          > > > > they go too far and have
                                          > > > > to have a behaviour
                                          > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                          > > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                          > > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                          > > > > perspective when he tells
                                          > > > > a story.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                          > > > > why put too much
                                          > > > > effort into it! And, he
                                          > > > > figures that all he needs
                                          > > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                          > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                          > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                          > > > > will substitute Soul for
                                          > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > It's really quite amazing
                                          > > > > how simple Klemp's
                                          > > > > redundant message is.
                                          > > > > If EKists would just compare
                                          > > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                          > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                          > > > > leaders one would have
                                          > > > > to wonder what they see
                                          > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                          > > > > but they just laugh at his
                                          > > > > quirkiness because he's
                                          > > > > operating on so many
                                          > > > > high planes of consciousness
                                          > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                          > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                          > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                          > > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                          > > > > park with the current Dali
                                          > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                          > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                          > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                          > > > > religion while Eckankar
                                          > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                          > > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                          > > > > the two leaders and how
                                          > > > > they present themselves
                                          > > > > and what they have to say.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Will ECKists make the
                                          > > > > comparison? No, of course
                                          > > > > not! They won't even allow
                                          > > > > the door to be opened a
                                          > > > > crack because some light
                                          > > > > might get in and show
                                          > > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                          > > > > handle the Truth and
                                          > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                          > > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                          > > > > what would they replace
                                          > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                          > > > > responsibility to think for
                                          > > > > oneself and exercise free
                                          > > > > will. And, it would make
                                          > > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                          > > > > of those EK friends.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Prometheus
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                          > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                          > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                          > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                          > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                          > > > > charlatan to me.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > The December 2012
                                          > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                          > > > > in the Ask the Master
                                          > > > > section are two interesting
                                          > > > > questions and answers.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > The first question has
                                          > > > > to do with Stress and
                                          > > > > how to overcome it.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                          > > > > washy at best. He says
                                          > > > > that stress is "very
                                          > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                          > > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                          > > > > that people can increase
                                          > > > > their tolerance to stress
                                          > > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                          > > > > enough sleep, and by
                                          > > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                          > > > > of electronic devices."
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > In other words it seems
                                          > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                          > > > > roundabout way, to use
                                          > > > > moderation. After all,
                                          > > > > he's saying to reduce
                                          > > > > "overuse."
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Then, again, how does
                                          > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                          > > > > not use their computer
                                          > > > > 8 hours a day?
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > The next question involves
                                          > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                          > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                          > > > > boy and two days later his
                                          > > > > mother translated (died).
                                          > > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                          > > > > new baby was his mother.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                          > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                          > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                          > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                          > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                          > > > > anything at all can happen...
                                          > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                          > > > > son, everything is in accord
                                          > > > > with what is best for all around."
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Prometheus
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Hello Non and All, Actually, having good interactive relationships with other people isn t necessarily about making new friends nor having the same religious,
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
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                                            Hello Non and All,
                                            Actually, having good
                                            interactive relationships
                                            with other people isn't
                                            necessarily about making
                                            new friends nor having
                                            the same religious, political,
                                            and lifestyle beliefs.
                                            Trying to get others
                                            to follow or accept our
                                            beliefs isn't the goal.

                                            It's more about being
                                            "friendly" to/with/for
                                            others and, thus, to
                                            ourselves. Usually, being
                                            friendly and promoting
                                            "friendship" (versus making
                                            friends) isn't that hard
                                            to accomplish. And, if
                                            it is, we need to make
                                            more of an effort and
                                            figure out what it is that's
                                            making this difficult.

                                            Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                            some small talk, and recognizing
                                            the other person by looking
                                            directly at them goes a
                                            long way.

                                            We can have a friendship
                                            (i.e. relationship) with a
                                            clerk whose full name we
                                            might not ever know. It's
                                            fun to simply, and naturally,
                                            smile and be friendly to
                                            strangers and acquaintances
                                            without expecting anything
                                            else. It takes the pressure
                                            off everyone when we keep
                                            it light. This lightness of
                                            Being will help to improve
                                            our lives and that of others.

                                            It's true that we will never
                                            be able to be friendly with
                                            some people. And, we won't
                                            always be friends with those
                                            people we know now. Some
                                            people don't deserve our
                                            efforts and will never deserve
                                            it. They are enemies to what
                                            we believe in.

                                            And, not all relationships
                                            work out nor need to be
                                            continued for the sake of
                                            all those involved. Sometimes
                                            people just have to let go
                                            and move on even with
                                            family members. But, these
                                            are usually relationships
                                            that have become complicated
                                            via various factors and are
                                            usually more one-sided
                                            due to a lack of communication,
                                            closed mindedness and
                                            hurt feelings.

                                            Our positive relationships
                                            with nature, to animals,
                                            and to other people are
                                            connections that make our
                                            lives worth living.


                                            Prometheus





                                            "Non" wrote:
                                            Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                            to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                            done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                            friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                            challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                            as far as religion may be growing. :)

                                            Non ;)

                                            "Non" wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                            teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                            lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                            possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                            inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                            act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                            In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                            otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                            even a twisted moral imperative.
                                            >
                                            > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                            direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                            point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                            like a small intervention.
                                            >
                                            > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                            situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                            and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                            outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                            at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                            and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                            heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                            >
                                            > Non ;)
                                            >
                                            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            > >
                                            Hi I am,
                                            It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                            we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                            So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                            possible and let them go on their way.
                                            Thanks for your comments.
                                            > >
                                            I AM wrote:
                                            > >
                                            Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                            regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                            meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                            > >
                                            > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                            sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                            point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                            > >
                                            > > I AM
                                            > >
                                            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                            it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                            there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                            talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                            happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                            something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                            people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                            people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                            came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                            appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                            is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                            about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                            good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                            > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                            doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                            still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                            willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                            motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                            of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                            everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                            by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                            strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                            broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                            takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                            the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                            After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                            > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                            hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                            admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                            sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                            knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                            have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                            even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                            heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                            rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                            Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                            others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                            pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                            that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                            use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                            tonight.
                                            > > >

                                            prometheus wrote:
                                            > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                            > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                            > > > will ever become like, God,
                                            > > > our imagined or possible
                                            > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                            > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > But, it could be that the
                                            > > > universe(s) just happened
                                            > > > and that the remnants of
                                            > > > other life forms were spread
                                            > > > to this planet, and others,
                                            > > > via space rubble... from
                                            > > > destroyed civilizations
                                            > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                            > > > intentional seeding by an
                                            > > > advanced race... which was,
                                            > > > itself, seeded by another
                                            > > > advanced race etc.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                            > > > experiences we have
                                            > > > are the result of
                                            > > > interaction with the
                                            > > > quantum mechanical
                                            > > > field?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                            > > > that what really matters
                                            > > > are relationships. It's our
                                            > > > relationships with others,
                                            > > > even strangers, that matter
                                            > > > most. This is how we really
                                            > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                            > > > relationships are valuable.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Klemp, and others like
                                            > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                            > > > have arrested development;
                                            > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                            > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                            > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                            > > > or caring about others (are
                                            > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                            > > > impede social progress and
                                            > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                            > > > us for their own personal
                                            > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                            > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                            > > > created can make life interesting
                                            > > > and a challenge, although,
                                            > > > it can/will also be physically
                                            > > > and emotionally painful.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > But, having a regular life
                                            > > > without additional commitments
                                            > > > and involvements can also
                                            > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                            > > > and insights. We are never
                                            > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                            > > > not sure how peace of any
                                            > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                            > > > will ever happen in a world
                                            > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > One must care about everyone
                                            > > > and have caring relationships
                                            > > > with people in order for humankind
                                            > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                            > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                            > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                            > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                            > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                            > > > too.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > How can one really "care" about
                                            > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                            > > > except to keep them away from
                                            > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                            > > > people.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > When one thinks about it the
                                            > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                            > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                            > > > seem to be more pathological
                                            > > > than the introverts don't you
                                            > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                            > > > to force us introverts to become
                                            > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                            > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                            > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                            > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                            > > > is more intimidating.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                            > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                            > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                            > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                            > > > lives because of the differences
                                            > > > we see in one another. This is
                                            > > > why there are so many different
                                            > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                            > > > and wrong.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                            > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                            > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                            > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                            > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                            > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                            > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > There are major flaws with all
                                            > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                            > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                            > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                            > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                            > > > validation is that these various
                                            > > > people in history/myth that the
                                            > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                            > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                            > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                            > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                            > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                            > > > have given them credibility, because
                                            > > > it is believed and taught that
                                            > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                            > > > have been the source for their
                                            > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                            > > > today, who are not even followers
                                            > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                            > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                            > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                            > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                            > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                            > > > Many of these people inspired
                                            > > > others by never giving up in time
                                            > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                            > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                            > > > Even those who did give up and
                                            > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                            > > > maintained their faith and this
                                            > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                            > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                            > > > for religions there are an awful
                                            > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                            > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Prometheus
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                            > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                            > > > with unconditional love for the
                                            > > > master and you get a submissive
                                            > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                            > > > Buyer beware!
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                            > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                            > > > an experiment to see if we
                                            > > > are all capable of evolving
                                            > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                            > > > Are we to become more than
                                            > > > merely a divine thought?
                                            > > > Maybe there is something
                                            > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                            > > > analogy."
                                          • Non
                                            Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
                                              probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
                                              other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
                                              doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.

                                              Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
                                              a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
                                              Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
                                              strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
                                              (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
                                              highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
                                              your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.

                                              Non ;)

                                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hello Non and All,
                                              > Actually, having good
                                              > interactive relationships
                                              > with other people isn't
                                              > necessarily about making
                                              > new friends nor having
                                              > the same religious, political,
                                              > and lifestyle beliefs.
                                              > Trying to get others
                                              > to follow or accept our
                                              > beliefs isn't the goal.
                                              >
                                              > It's more about being
                                              > "friendly" to/with/for
                                              > others and, thus, to
                                              > ourselves. Usually, being
                                              > friendly and promoting
                                              > "friendship" (versus making
                                              > friends) isn't that hard
                                              > to accomplish. And, if
                                              > it is, we need to make
                                              > more of an effort and
                                              > figure out what it is that's
                                              > making this difficult.
                                              >
                                              > Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                              > some small talk, and recognizing
                                              > the other person by looking
                                              > directly at them goes a
                                              > long way.
                                              >
                                              > We can have a friendship
                                              > (i.e. relationship) with a
                                              > clerk whose full name we
                                              > might not ever know. It's
                                              > fun to simply, and naturally,
                                              > smile and be friendly to
                                              > strangers and acquaintances
                                              > without expecting anything
                                              > else. It takes the pressure
                                              > off everyone when we keep
                                              > it light. This lightness of
                                              > Being will help to improve
                                              > our lives and that of others.
                                              >
                                              > It's true that we will never
                                              > be able to be friendly with
                                              > some people. And, we won't
                                              > always be friends with those
                                              > people we know now. Some
                                              > people don't deserve our
                                              > efforts and will never deserve
                                              > it. They are enemies to what
                                              > we believe in.
                                              >
                                              > And, not all relationships
                                              > work out nor need to be
                                              > continued for the sake of
                                              > all those involved. Sometimes
                                              > people just have to let go
                                              > and move on even with
                                              > family members. But, these
                                              > are usually relationships
                                              > that have become complicated
                                              > via various factors and are
                                              > usually more one-sided
                                              > due to a lack of communication,
                                              > closed mindedness and
                                              > hurt feelings.
                                              >
                                              > Our positive relationships
                                              > with nature, to animals,
                                              > and to other people are
                                              > connections that make our
                                              > lives worth living.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Prometheus
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > "Non" wrote:
                                              > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                              > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                              > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                              > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                              > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                              > as far as religion may be growing. :)
                                              >
                                              > Non ;)
                                              >
                                              > "Non" wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                              > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                              > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                              > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                              > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                              > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                              > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                              > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                              > even a twisted moral imperative.
                                              > >
                                              > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                              > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                              > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                              > like a small intervention.
                                              > >
                                              > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                              > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                              > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                              > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                              > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                              > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                              > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                              > >
                                              > > Non ;)
                                              > >
                                              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > Hi I am,
                                              > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                              > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                              > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                              > possible and let them go on their way.
                                              > Thanks for your comments.
                                              > > >
                                              > I AM wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                              > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                              > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                              > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                              > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I AM
                                              > > >
                                              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                              > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                              > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                              > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                              > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                              > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                              > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                              > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                              > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                              > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                              > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                              > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                              > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                              > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                              > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                              > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                              > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                              > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                              > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                              > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                              > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                              > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                              > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                              > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                              > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                              > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                              > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                              > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                              > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                              > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                              > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                              > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                              > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                              > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                              > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                              > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                              > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                              > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                              > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                              > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                              > tonight.
                                              > > > >
                                              >
                                              > prometheus wrote:
                                              > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                              > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                              > > > > will ever become like, God,
                                              > > > > our imagined or possible
                                              > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                              > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > But, it could be that the
                                              > > > > universe(s) just happened
                                              > > > > and that the remnants of
                                              > > > > other life forms were spread
                                              > > > > to this planet, and others,
                                              > > > > via space rubble... from
                                              > > > > destroyed civilizations
                                              > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                              > > > > intentional seeding by an
                                              > > > > advanced race... which was,
                                              > > > > itself, seeded by another
                                              > > > > advanced race etc.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                              > > > > experiences we have
                                              > > > > are the result of
                                              > > > > interaction with the
                                              > > > > quantum mechanical
                                              > > > > field?
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                              > > > > that what really matters
                                              > > > > are relationships. It's our
                                              > > > > relationships with others,
                                              > > > > even strangers, that matter
                                              > > > > most. This is how we really
                                              > > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                              > > > > relationships are valuable.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Klemp, and others like
                                              > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                              > > > > have arrested development;
                                              > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                              > > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                              > > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                              > > > > or caring about others (are
                                              > > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                              > > > > impede social progress and
                                              > > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                              > > > > us for their own personal
                                              > > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                              > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                              > > > > created can make life interesting
                                              > > > > and a challenge, although,
                                              > > > > it can/will also be physically
                                              > > > > and emotionally painful.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > But, having a regular life
                                              > > > > without additional commitments
                                              > > > > and involvements can also
                                              > > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                              > > > > and insights. We are never
                                              > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                              > > > > not sure how peace of any
                                              > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                              > > > > will ever happen in a world
                                              > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > One must care about everyone
                                              > > > > and have caring relationships
                                              > > > > with people in order for humankind
                                              > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                              > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                              > > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                              > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                              > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                              > > > > too.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > How can one really "care" about
                                              > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                              > > > > except to keep them away from
                                              > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                              > > > > people.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > When one thinks about it the
                                              > > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                              > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                              > > > > seem to be more pathological
                                              > > > > than the introverts don't you
                                              > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                              > > > > to force us introverts to become
                                              > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                              > > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                              > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                              > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                              > > > > is more intimidating.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                              > > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                              > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                              > > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                              > > > > lives because of the differences
                                              > > > > we see in one another. This is
                                              > > > > why there are so many different
                                              > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                              > > > > and wrong.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                              > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                              > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                              > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                              > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                              > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                              > > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > There are major flaws with all
                                              > > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                              > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                              > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                              > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                              > > > > validation is that these various
                                              > > > > people in history/myth that the
                                              > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                              > > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                              > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                              > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                              > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                              > > > > have given them credibility, because
                                              > > > > it is believed and taught that
                                              > > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                              > > > > have been the source for their
                                              > > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                              > > > > today, who are not even followers
                                              > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                              > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                              > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                              > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                              > > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                              > > > > Many of these people inspired
                                              > > > > others by never giving up in time
                                              > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                              > > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                              > > > > Even those who did give up and
                                              > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                              > > > > maintained their faith and this
                                              > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                              > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                              > > > > for religions there are an awful
                                              > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                              > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Prometheus
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                              > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                              > > > > with unconditional love for the
                                              > > > > master and you get a submissive
                                              > > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                              > > > > Buyer beware!
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                              > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                              > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                              > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                              > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                              > > > > Are we to become more than
                                              > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                              > > > > Maybe there is something
                                              > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                              > > > > analogy."
                                              >
                                            • prometheus_973
                                              Really! This is a valid spiritual technique that, unlike those HK hands out and sells, actually works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 18, 2013
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Really! This is a valid spiritual
                                                technique that, unlike those
                                                HK hands out and sells, actually
                                                works:

                                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo

                                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
                                                > probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
                                                > other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
                                                > doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.
                                                >
                                                > Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
                                                > a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
                                                > Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
                                                > strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
                                                > (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
                                                > highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
                                                > your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.
                                                >
                                                > Non ;)
                                                >
                                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hello Non and All,
                                                > > Actually, having good
                                                > > interactive relationships
                                                > > with other people isn't
                                                > > necessarily about making
                                                > > new friends nor having
                                                > > the same religious, political,
                                                > > and lifestyle beliefs.
                                                > > Trying to get others
                                                > > to follow or accept our
                                                > > beliefs isn't the goal.
                                                > >
                                                > > It's more about being
                                                > > "friendly" to/with/for
                                                > > others and, thus, to
                                                > > ourselves. Usually, being
                                                > > friendly and promoting
                                                > > "friendship" (versus making
                                                > > friends) isn't that hard
                                                > > to accomplish. And, if
                                                > > it is, we need to make
                                                > > more of an effort and
                                                > > figure out what it is that's
                                                > > making this difficult.
                                                > >
                                                > > Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                                > > some small talk, and recognizing
                                                > > the other person by looking
                                                > > directly at them goes a
                                                > > long way.
                                                > >
                                                > > We can have a friendship
                                                > > (i.e. relationship) with a
                                                > > clerk whose full name we
                                                > > might not ever know. It's
                                                > > fun to simply, and naturally,
                                                > > smile and be friendly to
                                                > > strangers and acquaintances
                                                > > without expecting anything
                                                > > else. It takes the pressure
                                                > > off everyone when we keep
                                                > > it light. This lightness of
                                                > > Being will help to improve
                                                > > our lives and that of others.
                                                > >
                                                > > It's true that we will never
                                                > > be able to be friendly with
                                                > > some people. And, we won't
                                                > > always be friends with those
                                                > > people we know now. Some
                                                > > people don't deserve our
                                                > > efforts and will never deserve
                                                > > it. They are enemies to what
                                                > > we believe in.
                                                > >
                                                > > And, not all relationships
                                                > > work out nor need to be
                                                > > continued for the sake of
                                                > > all those involved. Sometimes
                                                > > people just have to let go
                                                > > and move on even with
                                                > > family members. But, these
                                                > > are usually relationships
                                                > > that have become complicated
                                                > > via various factors and are
                                                > > usually more one-sided
                                                > > due to a lack of communication,
                                                > > closed mindedness and
                                                > > hurt feelings.
                                                > >
                                                > > Our positive relationships
                                                > > with nature, to animals,
                                                > > and to other people are
                                                > > connections that make our
                                                > > lives worth living.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Prometheus
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > "Non" wrote:
                                                > > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                                > > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                                > > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                                > > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                                > > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                                > > as far as religion may be growing. :)
                                                > >
                                                > > Non ;)
                                                > >
                                                > > "Non" wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                                > > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                                > > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                                > > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                                > > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                                > > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                                > > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                                > > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                                > > even a twisted moral imperative.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                                > > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                                > > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                                > > like a small intervention.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                                > > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                                > > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                                > > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                                > > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                                > > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                                > > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Non ;)
                                                > > >
                                                > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > Hi I am,
                                                > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                                > > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                                > > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                                > > possible and let them go on their way.
                                                > > Thanks for your comments.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > I AM wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                                > > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                                > > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                                > > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                                > > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > I AM
                                                > > > >
                                                > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                                > > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                                > > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                                > > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                                > > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                                > > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                                > > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                                > > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                                > > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                                > > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                                > > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                                > > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                                > > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                                > > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                                > > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                                > > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                                > > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                                > > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                                > > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                                > > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                                > > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                                > > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                                > > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                                > > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                                > > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                                > > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                                > > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                                > > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                                > > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                                > > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                                > > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                                > > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                                > > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                                > > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                                > > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                                > > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                                > > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                                > > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                                > > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                                > > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                                > > tonight.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > prometheus wrote:
                                                > > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                > > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                > > > > > will ever become like, God,
                                                > > > > > our imagined or possible
                                                > > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                > > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > But, it could be that the
                                                > > > > > universe(s) just happened
                                                > > > > > and that the remnants of
                                                > > > > > other life forms were spread
                                                > > > > > to this planet, and others,
                                                > > > > > via space rubble... from
                                                > > > > > destroyed civilizations
                                                > > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                > > > > > intentional seeding by an
                                                > > > > > advanced race... which was,
                                                > > > > > itself, seeded by another
                                                > > > > > advanced race etc.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                > > > > > experiences we have
                                                > > > > > are the result of
                                                > > > > > interaction with the
                                                > > > > > quantum mechanical
                                                > > > > > field?
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                > > > > > that what really matters
                                                > > > > > are relationships. It's our
                                                > > > > > relationships with others,
                                                > > > > > even strangers, that matter
                                                > > > > > most. This is how we really
                                                > > > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                                > > > > > relationships are valuable.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Klemp, and others like
                                                > > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                > > > > > have arrested development;
                                                > > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                > > > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                                > > > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                                > > > > > or caring about others (are
                                                > > > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                                > > > > > impede social progress and
                                                > > > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                                > > > > > us for their own personal
                                                > > > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                                > > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                > > > > > created can make life interesting
                                                > > > > > and a challenge, although,
                                                > > > > > it can/will also be physically
                                                > > > > > and emotionally painful.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > But, having a regular life
                                                > > > > > without additional commitments
                                                > > > > > and involvements can also
                                                > > > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                                > > > > > and insights. We are never
                                                > > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                > > > > > not sure how peace of any
                                                > > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                > > > > > will ever happen in a world
                                                > > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > One must care about everyone
                                                > > > > > and have caring relationships
                                                > > > > > with people in order for humankind
                                                > > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                > > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                > > > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                                > > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                > > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                > > > > > too.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > How can one really "care" about
                                                > > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                > > > > > except to keep them away from
                                                > > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                > > > > > people.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > When one thinks about it the
                                                > > > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                                > > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                > > > > > seem to be more pathological
                                                > > > > > than the introverts don't you
                                                > > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                > > > > > to force us introverts to become
                                                > > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                > > > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                                > > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                > > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                > > > > > is more intimidating.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                > > > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                                > > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                > > > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                                > > > > > lives because of the differences
                                                > > > > > we see in one another. This is
                                                > > > > > why there are so many different
                                                > > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                > > > > > and wrong.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                > > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                > > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                > > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                > > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                > > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                > > > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > There are major flaws with all
                                                > > > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                                > > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                > > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                > > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                > > > > > validation is that these various
                                                > > > > > people in history/myth that the
                                                > > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                > > > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                                > > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                > > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                > > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                > > > > > have given them credibility, because
                                                > > > > > it is believed and taught that
                                                > > > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                                > > > > > have been the source for their
                                                > > > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                > > > > > today, who are not even followers
                                                > > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                > > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                > > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                > > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                > > > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                                > > > > > Many of these people inspired
                                                > > > > > others by never giving up in time
                                                > > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                > > > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                                > > > > > Even those who did give up and
                                                > > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                > > > > > maintained their faith and this
                                                > > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                > > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                > > > > > for religions there are an awful
                                                > > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                > > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Prometheus
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                > > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                > > > > > with unconditional love for the
                                                > > > > > master and you get a submissive
                                                > > > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                                > > > > > Buyer beware!
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                > > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                > > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                > > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                > > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                > > > > > Are we to become more than
                                                > > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                > > > > > Maybe there is something
                                                > > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                > > > > > analogy."
                                                > >
                                                >
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