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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Wishy-Washy Mahanta

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn t he have simple told the man that the child was or was not the soul of his mother?  Yep, he is wishy washy to say
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
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      Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the child was or was not the soul of his mother?  Yep, he is wishy washy to say the least.  He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly.  I guess he is afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask the same question and he might give the opposite answer.  Smells like a charlatan to me. 
      --- On Thu, 1/3/13, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, January 3, 2013, 2:58 AM

       
      The December 2012
      Eckankar Mystic World
      in the Ask the Master
      section are two interesting
      questions and answers.

      The first question has
      to do with Stress and
      how to overcome it.

      HK's answer is wishy-
      washy at best. He says
      that stress is "very
      uncomfortable... Yet
      stress is a good teacher."

      Klemp goes on to say
      that people increase
      their tolerance to stress
      by eating healthy, getting
      enough sleep, and by
      "Reducing our overuse
      of electronic devices."

      In other words it seems
      Klemp is saying, in a
      roundabout way, to use
      moderation. After all,
      he's saying to reduce
      "overuse."

      Then, again, how does
      a EK staffer at the ESC
      not use their computer
      8 hours a day?

      The next question involves
      reincarnation. This guy's
      wife gave birth to a baby
      boy and two days later his
      mother translated (died).
      He indirectly asked if this
      new baby was his mother.

      Instead of giving this EKist
      a direct answer, Klemp,
      the wishy-washy Mahanta
      says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
      When it comes to rebirth,
      anything at all can happen...
      Whichever Soul is now your
      son, everything is in accord
      with what is best for all around."

      Prometheus

    • Janice Pfeiffer
      Yep, You guys summed it up very well about what HK does.  Thanks for the info. ... From: iam999freedom Subject:
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
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        Yep, You guys summed it up very well about what HK does.  Thanks for the info.

        --- On Fri, 1/4/13, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

        From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, January 4, 2013, 1:45 AM

         
        Thats an interesting point about HK using Bait and Switch to get new members by promising "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
        Liberation" but then switching it up and demanding (suggesting) Mahanta Codependency. It would be interesting to see how many Eckists started off on the path with problems with their father. I know I did as well as many others that I know of. It is so easy to get swarmed up in this feel good promise of Self-Mastery while codependency is subtly being reinforced at every turn. Before you know it codependency along with the threats about leaving the path can take a heavy toll on someone with a strong urge for independence.

        BTW, I think if there is such a thing as a Mahanta then it is our OWN HIGHEST STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

        I AM

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
        >
        > Hello I AM and All,
        > Actually Klemp did cite some
        > studies and I Googled it myself
        > and saw that there is proof that
        > identical twins share similarities.
        > The mirrored behaviors could
        > be genetical with brain frequencies
        > and brain function being the
        > same due to a quantum mechanical
        > influence. I threw that last one
        > in on my own, but who knows?
        >
        > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
        > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
        > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
        > use the Lords of Karma ruse
        > which, BTW, is not solely owned
        > by Eckankar.
        >
        > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
        > to get new members by promising
        > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
        > Liberation" but then he switches
        > it up and demands (suggests)
        > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
        > Team participation in order to,
        > possibly, get promoted and receive
        > "Spiritual Rewards."
        >
        > It is funny that Klemp claims to
        > take "Free Will" away from Souls
        > who join Eckankar and follow him.
        > Does this mean that those Souls
        > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
        > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > iam999freedom wrote:
        > Hi Prometheus,
        > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
        > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
        > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
        > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
        > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
        > the environment.
        >
        > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
        > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
        > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
        >
        > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
        > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
        > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
        >
        > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
        > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
        > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
        > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
        >
        > I AM
        >
        > prometheus_973" wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello I Am,
        > > Okay, let me give it
        > > a shot and use some
        > > excerpts etc.
        > >
        > > HK's talking about
        > > psychological studies
        > > using identical twins
        > > (not conjoined) that
        > > were separated soon
        > > after birth. They grew
        > > up elsewhere and had
        > > different influences
        > > but dressed the same
        > > and had the same type
        > > of dog and gave the
        > > dog the same name etc.,
        > > etc.
        > >
        > > Thus, it seems that
        > > Free Will relies upon
        > > genetics (nature) more
        > > than it does upon nurture,
        > > although, HK says that
        > > Yogi Berra stated that
        > > "in theory, practice doesn't
        > > matter; in practice, it does."
        > >
        > > BTW- According to Klemp
        > > "The Lords of Karma have
        > > selected a body with the
        > > appropriate genes for each
        > > student."
        > >
        > > However, HK has somewhat
        > > contradicted what is in CH.
        > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
        > > that "the spiritual workers
        > > created man and placed
        > > within him a living imperishable
        > > Spirit, called Soul."
        > >
        > > There is no other mention
        > > of these "spiritual workers."
        > >
        > > Anywho-
        > >
        > > HK is so clever the way
        > > he'll twist a quote to add
        > > even more confusion to
        > > his message of absolute
        > > servitude and obedience.
        > >
        > > I counted HK using "But"
        > > four times. In an old H.I.
        > > Letter he said never to
        > > use "But" with one another
        > > and that it was a nail in
        > > the coffin of invention and
        > > took away from what was
        > > previously said.
        > >
        > > HK:
        > > "BUT they dug in their heels
        > > at the finding that such twins'
        > > IQs were nearly as similar as
        > > their heights."
        > >
        > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
        > > set. A kind owner may let it out
        > > into the room on occasion. BUT
        > > it is still in a house."
        > >
        > > "Researchers, too, can advance
        > > only to a fixed point in their studies
        > > of what elements make up a whole
        > > individual. BUT they do not have
        > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
        > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
        > >
        > > Funny that Klemp states that he
        > > holds "a magical key" to control
        > > others like a Black Magician would.
        > >
        > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
        > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
        > > must have the right kind and amount
        > > of daily experiences."
        > >
        > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
        > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
        > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
        > > the "right kind and amount of daily
        > > experiences."
        > >
        > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
        > > doesn't like science and psychologists
        > > since getting locked up in an asylum
        > > and having to "play-the-game" to
        > > be released early.
        > >
        > > HK states that "Real free will rests
        > > entirely on trusting the Master's
        > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
        > > many choices to make in all things
        > > human and divine."
        > >
        > > In other words do as I say not
        > > as I do and there is no such
        > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
        > > Does that kind sound like Cult
        > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
        > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
        > > that "He gives suggestions" and
        > > "seldom does he issue directives...
        > > True Free Will of an individual
        > > stands upon the Mahanta's
        > > guidance."
        > >
        > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
        > > as he speaks from experience:
        > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
        > > ingrained ideas about patterns
        > > against them. A subject thinks
        > > he has the quick mind and eyes
        > > to catch a Magician in an act,
        > > even while he is being unburdened
        > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
        > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
        > > played upon people by illusion."
        > >
        > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
        > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
        > > exercises," but write those snail-
        > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
        > > thinking and so I can use those
        > > stories for my next book.
        > >
        > >
        > > iam999freedom wrote:
        > > Hi Prometheus,
        > >
        > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
        > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
        > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
        > >
        > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
        > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
        > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
        > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
        > > different character than the other."
        > >
        > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
        > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
        > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
        > >
        > > I still have yet to receive a response.
        > >
        > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
        > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > > I AM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > prometheus_wrote:
        > > >
        > > > The December 2012
        > > > Eckankar Mystic World
        > > > in the Ask the Master
        > > > section are two interesting
        > > > questions and answers.
        > > >
        > > > The first question has
        > > > to do with Stress and
        > > > how to overcome it.
        > > >
        > > > HK's answer is wishy-
        > > > washy at best. He says
        > > > that stress is "very
        > > > uncomfortable... Yet
        > > > stress is a good teacher."
        > > >
        > > > Klemp goes on to say
        > > > that people increase
        > > > their tolerance to stress
        > > > by eating healthy, getting
        > > > enough sleep, and by
        > > > "Reducing our overuse
        > > > of electronic devices."
        > > >
        > > > In other words it seems
        > > > Klemp is saying, in a
        > > > roundabout way, to use
        > > > moderation. After all,
        > > > he's saying to reduce
        > > > "overuse."
        > > >
        > > > Then, again, how does
        > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
        > > > not use their computer
        > > > 8 hours a day?
        > > >
        > > > The next question involves
        > > > reincarnation. This guy's
        > > > wife gave birth to a baby
        > > > boy and two days later his
        > > > mother translated (died).
        > > > He indirectly asked if this
        > > > new baby was his mother.
        > > >
        > > > Instead of giving this EKist
        > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
        > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
        > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
        > > > When it comes to rebirth,
        > > > anything at all can happen...
        > > > Whichever Soul is now your
        > > > son, everything is in accord
        > > > with what is best for all around."
        > > >
        > > > Prometheus
        > >
        >

      • prometheus_973
        Hello Janice, Yes, one would think that a Modern Day Prophet would, at least, attempt to live up to his PR, but that s not the case with Klemp. Why put
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
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          Hello Janice,
          Yes, one would think that
          a "Modern Day Prophet"
          would, at least, attempt
          to live up to his PR, but
          that's not the case with
          Klemp. Why put himself
          out there by demonstrating
          his powers? It's not like
          he announced to the
          whole world that he was....
          oh wait, he did!

          That was a long time ago
          and he never did make
          any predictions as most
          prophets do. Even Twit
          made some predictions.
          But, I'm sure that EKists
          haven't noticed and don't
          mine and that's why he
          doesn't feel any pressure
          to preform his responsibilities
          as a real prophet.

          Instead, Harold is very
          cautious of being too
          direct and understood.
          He'd rather have EKists
          fill-in the blanks and
          imagine what they want,
          need and expect until
          they go too far and have
          to have a behaviour
          adjustment by their RESA.
          That's why Klemp usually
          gives a very one dimensional
          perspective when he tells
          a story.

          Plus, Klemp's lazy so
          why put too much
          effort into it! And, he
          figures that all he needs
          to do is the KISS thing
          of Keeping It Simple (for)
          Stupid. Of course EKies
          will substitute Soul for
          Stupid but Stupid fits!

          It's really quite amazing
          how simple Klemp's
          redundant message is.
          If EKists would just compare
          Klemp's simple minded
          witticisms to other "spiritual"
          leaders one would have
          to wonder what they see
          in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
          but they just laugh at his
          quirkiness because he's
          operating on so many
          high planes of consciousness
          simultaneously. LOL!

          Just Google Kristamurti's
          quotes or the Dali Lama's.
          Klemp, the great Mahanta,
          isn't even in the same ball
          park with the current Dali
          Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
          (pg. 385) he claims that
          Buddhism is a 4th Plane
          religion while Eckankar
          is a 14th Plane Religion!
          But, EKists need to compare
          the two leaders and how
          they present themselves
          and what they have to say.

          Will ECKists make the
          comparison? No, of course
          not! They won't even allow
          the door to be opened a
          crack because some light
          might get in and show
          them the Truth. They can't
          handle the Truth and
          would rather remain ignorant.
          It's much easier, besides,
          what would they replace
          Eckankar with? It's too much
          responsibility to think for
          oneself and exercise free
          will. And, it would make
          life too lonely to lose all
          of those EK friends.

          Prometheus








          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a charlatan to me.


          Prometheus wrote:

          The December 2012
          Eckankar Mystic World
          in the Ask the Master
          section are two interesting
          questions and answers.

          The first question has
          to do with Stress and
          how to overcome it.

          HK's answer is wishy-
          washy at best. He says
          that stress is "very
          uncomfortable... Yet
          stress is a good teacher."

          Klemp goes on to say
          that people can increase
          their tolerance to stress
          by eating healthy, getting
          enough sleep, and by
          "Reducing our overuse
          of electronic devices."

          In other words it seems
          Klemp is saying, in a
          roundabout way, to use
          moderation. After all,
          he's saying to reduce
          "overuse."

          Then, again, how does
          a EK staffer at the ESC
          not use their computer
          8 hours a day?

          The next question involves
          reincarnation. This guy's
          wife gave birth to a baby
          boy and two days later his
          mother translated (died).
          He indirectly asked if this
          new baby was his mother.

          Instead of giving this EKist
          a direct answer, Klemp,
          the wishy-washy Mahanta
          says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
          When it comes to rebirth,
          anything at all can happen...
          Whichever Soul is now your
          son, everything is in accord
          with what is best for all around."

          Prometheus
        • Non
          So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn t do his own spiritual exercises,
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 5, 2013
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            So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master etc.

            Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)

            They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.

            Non ;)

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
            >
            Hello Janice,
            Yes, one would think that
            a "Modern Day Prophet"
            would, at least, attempt
            to live up to his PR, but
            that's not the case with
            Klemp. Why put himself
            out there by demonstrating
            his powers? It's not like
            he announced to the
            whole world that he was....
            oh wait, he did!

            That was a long time ago
            and he never did make
            any predictions as most
            prophets do. Even Twit
            made some predictions.
            But, I'm sure that EKists
            haven't noticed and don't
            mine and that's why he
            doesn't feel any pressure
            to preform his responsibilities
            as a real prophet.

            Instead, Harold is very
            cautious of being too
            direct and understood.
            He'd rather have EKists
            fill-in the blanks and
            imagine what they want,
            need and expect until
            they go too far and have
            to have a behaviour
            adjustment by their RESA.
            That's why Klemp usually
            gives a very one dimensional
            perspective when he tells
            a story.

            Plus, Klemp's lazy so
            why put too much
            effort into it! And, he
            figures that all he needs
            to do is the KISS thing
            of Keeping It Simple (for)
            Stupid. Of course EKies
            will substitute Soul for
            Stupid but Stupid fits!

            It's really quite amazing
            how simple Klemp's
            redundant message is.
            If EKists would just compare
            Klemp's simple minded
            witticisms to other "spiritual"
            leaders one would have
            to wonder what they see
            in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
            but they just laugh at his
            quirkiness because he's
            operating on so many
            high planes of consciousness
            simultaneously. LOL!

            Just Google Kristamurti's
            quotes or the Dali Lama's.
            Klemp, the great Mahanta,
            isn't even in the same ball
            park with the current Dali
            Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
            (pg. 385) he claims that
            Buddhism is a 4th Plane
            religion while Eckankar
            is a 14th Plane Religion!
            But, EKists need to compare
            the two leaders and how
            they present themselves
            and what they have to say.

            Will ECKists make the
            comparison? No, of course
            not! They won't even allow
            the door to be opened a
            crack because some light
            might get in and show
            them the Truth. They can't
            handle the Truth and
            would rather remain ignorant.
            It's much easier, besides,
            what would they replace
            Eckankar with? It's too much
            responsibility to think for
            oneself and exercise free
            will. And, it would make
            life too lonely to lose all
            of those EK friends.

            Prometheus








            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
            child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
            least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
            afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
            the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
            charlatan to me.


            Prometheus wrote:

            The December 2012
            Eckankar Mystic World
            in the Ask the Master
            section are two interesting
            questions and answers.

            The first question has
            to do with Stress and
            how to overcome it.

            HK's answer is wishy-
            washy at best. He says
            that stress is "very
            uncomfortable... Yet
            stress is a good teacher."

            Klemp goes on to say
            that people can increase
            their tolerance to stress
            by eating healthy, getting
            enough sleep, and by
            "Reducing our overuse
            of electronic devices."

            In other words it seems
            Klemp is saying, in a
            roundabout way, to use
            moderation. After all,
            he's saying to reduce
            "overuse."

            Then, again, how does
            a EK staffer at the ESC
            not use their computer
            8 hours a day?

            The next question involves
            reincarnation. This guy's
            wife gave birth to a baby
            boy and two days later his
            mother translated (died).
            He indirectly asked if this
            new baby was his mother.

            Instead of giving this EKist
            a direct answer, Klemp,
            the wishy-washy Mahanta
            says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
            When it comes to rebirth,
            anything at all can happen...
            Whichever Soul is now your
            son, everything is in accord
            with what is best for all around."

            Prometheus
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Non and All, Thanks for the insightful summary. I was exploring the dogma of some fundamentalist charismatic Christian churches and saw a reference to a
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
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              Hello Non and All,
              Thanks for the insightful
              summary. I was exploring
              the dogma of some fundamentalist
              charismatic Christian churches
              and saw a reference to a
              minor (Jewish) prophet:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk

              This person is mentioned
              not by Jesus but by one of
              his apostles in order to inspire
              Faith.

              Even when God seems to
              turn his back and: causes
              crops to fail; flocks to be
              lost; cities attacked and
              overrun by your enemies;
              people brutalized, tortured
              and killed, one is to have
              Faith in God and a hereafter
              reward for keeping this
              faith. God's ego needs
              you to believe in him
              regardless of what pain
              he allows to befall you.

              One needs to project
              a sense of hope in order
              to better endure life, as
              it is, no matter how bad.

              And, it's easier to face these
              challenges when you believe
              that God is on your side and
              not that of your oppressor.

              However, does God really
              take sides? It seems that God
              is/was created in man's image.

              All of this, it seems, is simply
              an experiment to see if we
              are all capable of evolving
              into our "spiritual" potential.
              Are we to become more than
              merely a divine thought?
              Maybe there is something
              more to that piece of a mirror
              analogy.

              Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
              has the belief that you (and your
              fellow believers or countrymen)
              deserved the punishments as
              repayment for sin. Some call it
              Karma or cause and effect, or
              what you sow you reap. Plus,
              most religions see everyday
              living and hardships as a test
              of faith. Yet, one is supposed
              to donate money to support
              the specific dogma that, basically,
              says and promises the same
              or similar things in the imagined
              hereafter.

              Plus, each religion has always
              blamed the non-believers for
              the sins that they suffer under
              as well. Eckankar is no different
              and Klemp is more like these
              preachers than EKists could ever
              admit.

              Well, got to go now....
              I just had some thoughts
              to share.

              Prometheus

              "Non" wrote:
              So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
              compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises,
              because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe
              a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
              material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
              "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
              and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
              crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master
              etc.

              Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new
              World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
              anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
              admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
              always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet
              in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
              stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck
              master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
              is a more appropriate title to his life story.)

              They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
              think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
              advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on
              the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
              drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it
              is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.

              Non ;)

              prometheus wrote:

              Hello Janice,
              Yes, one would think that
              a "Modern Day Prophet"
              would, at least, attempt
              to live up to his PR, but
              that's not the case with
              Klemp. Why put himself
              out there by demonstrating
              his powers? It's not like
              he announced to the
              whole world that he was....
              oh wait, he did!

              That was a long time ago
              and he never did make
              any predictions as most
              prophets do. Even Twit
              made some predictions.
              But, I'm sure that EKists
              haven't noticed and don't
              mine and that's why he
              doesn't feel any pressure
              to preform his responsibilities
              as a real prophet.

              Instead, Harold is very
              cautious of being too
              direct and understood.
              He'd rather have EKists
              fill-in the blanks and
              imagine what they want,
              need and expect until
              they go too far and have
              to have a behaviour
              adjustment by their RESA.
              That's why Klemp usually
              gives a very one dimensional
              perspective when he tells
              a story.

              Plus, Klemp's lazy so
              why put too much
              effort into it! And, he
              figures that all he needs
              to do is the KISS thing
              of Keeping It Simple (for)
              Stupid. Of course EKies
              will substitute Soul for
              Stupid but Stupid fits!

              It's really quite amazing
              how simple Klemp's
              redundant message is.
              If EKists would just compare
              Klemp's simple minded
              witticisms to other "spiritual"
              leaders one would have
              to wonder what they see
              in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
              but they just laugh at his
              quirkiness because he's
              operating on so many
              high planes of consciousness
              simultaneously. LOL!

              Just Google Kristamurti's
              quotes or the Dali Lama's.
              Klemp, the great Mahanta,
              isn't even in the same ball
              park with the current Dali
              Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
              (pg. 385) he claims that
              Buddhism is a 4th Plane
              religion while Eckankar
              is a 14th Plane Religion!
              But, EKists need to compare
              the two leaders and how
              they present themselves
              and what they have to say.

              Will ECKists make the
              comparison? No, of course
              not! They won't even allow
              the door to be opened a
              crack because some light
              might get in and show
              them the Truth. They can't
              handle the Truth and
              would rather remain ignorant.
              It's much easier, besides,
              what would they replace
              Eckankar with? It's too much
              responsibility to think for
              oneself and exercise free
              will. And, it would make
              life too lonely to lose all
              of those EK friends.

              Prometheus


              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
              child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
              least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
              afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
              the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
              charlatan to me.


              Prometheus wrote:

              The December 2012
              Eckankar Mystic World
              in the Ask the Master
              section are two interesting
              questions and answers.

              The first question has
              to do with Stress and
              how to overcome it.

              HK's answer is wishy-
              washy at best. He says
              that stress is "very
              uncomfortable... Yet
              stress is a good teacher."

              Klemp goes on to say
              that people can increase
              their tolerance to stress
              by eating healthy, getting
              enough sleep, and by
              "Reducing our overuse
              of electronic devices."

              In other words it seems
              Klemp is saying, in a
              roundabout way, to use
              moderation. After all,
              he's saying to reduce
              "overuse."

              Then, again, how does
              a EK staffer at the ESC
              not use their computer
              8 hours a day?

              The next question involves
              reincarnation. This guy's
              wife gave birth to a baby
              boy and two days later his
              mother translated (died).
              He indirectly asked if this
              new baby was his mother.

              Instead of giving this EKist
              a direct answer, Klemp,
              the wishy-washy Mahanta
              says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
              When it comes to rebirth,
              anything at all can happen...
              Whichever Soul is now your
              son, everything is in accord
              with what is best for all around."

              Prometheus
            • iam999freedom
              Yes Non, combine authoritarianism with unconditional love for the master and you get a submissive control pattern as your reward. Buyer beware! Prometheus, you
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes Non, combine authoritarianism with unconditional love for the master and you get a submissive control pattern as your reward. Buyer beware!

                Prometheus, you wrote:
                "All of this, it seems, is simply
                an experiment to see if we
                are all capable of evolving
                into our "spiritual" potential.
                Are we to become more than
                merely a divine thought?
                Maybe there is something
                more to that piece of a mirror
                analogy."

                I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again. I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the end result of the mirror analagy.

                I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

                I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event. Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more meaning than being in a pinball machine.

                Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

                Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think that it would ever be necessary.

                Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

                I AM

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                >
                > Hello Non and All,
                > Thanks for the insightful
                > summary. I was exploring
                > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                > charismatic Christian churches
                > and saw a reference to a
                > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                >
                > This person is mentioned
                > not by Jesus but by one of
                > his apostles in order to inspire
                > Faith.
                >
                > Even when God seems to
                > turn his back and: causes
                > crops to fail; flocks to be
                > lost; cities attacked and
                > overrun by your enemies;
                > people brutalized, tortured
                > and killed, one is to have
                > Faith in God and a hereafter
                > reward for keeping this
                > faith. God's ego needs
                > you to believe in him
                > regardless of what pain
                > he allows to befall you.
                >
                > One needs to project
                > a sense of hope in order
                > to better endure life, as
                > it is, no matter how bad.
                >
                > And, it's easier to face these
                > challenges when you believe
                > that God is on your side and
                > not that of your oppressor.
                >
                > However, does God really
                > take sides? It seems that God
                > is/was created in man's image.
                >
                > All of this, it seems, is simply
                > an experiment to see if we
                > are all capable of evolving
                > into our "spiritual" potential.
                > Are we to become more than
                > merely a divine thought?
                > Maybe there is something
                > more to that piece of a mirror
                > analogy.
                >
                > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                > has the belief that you (and your
                > fellow believers or countrymen)
                > deserved the punishments as
                > repayment for sin. Some call it
                > Karma or cause and effect, or
                > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                > most religions see everyday
                > living and hardships as a test
                > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                > to donate money to support
                > the specific dogma that, basically,
                > says and promises the same
                > or similar things in the imagined
                > hereafter.
                >
                > Plus, each religion has always
                > blamed the non-believers for
                > the sins that they suffer under
                > as well. Eckankar is no different
                > and Klemp is more like these
                > preachers than EKists could ever
                > admit.
                >
                > Well, got to go now....
                > I just had some thoughts
                > to share.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > "Non" wrote:
                > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises,
                > because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe
                > a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
                > material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
                > "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
                > and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
                > crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master
                > etc.
                >
                > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new
                > World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
                > anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
                > admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
                > always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet
                > in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
                > stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck
                > master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
                > is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                >
                > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
                > think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on
                > the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it
                > is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                >
                > Non ;)
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello Janice,
                > Yes, one would think that
                > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                > would, at least, attempt
                > to live up to his PR, but
                > that's not the case with
                > Klemp. Why put himself
                > out there by demonstrating
                > his powers? It's not like
                > he announced to the
                > whole world that he was....
                > oh wait, he did!
                >
                > That was a long time ago
                > and he never did make
                > any predictions as most
                > prophets do. Even Twit
                > made some predictions.
                > But, I'm sure that EKists
                > haven't noticed and don't
                > mine and that's why he
                > doesn't feel any pressure
                > to preform his responsibilities
                > as a real prophet.
                >
                > Instead, Harold is very
                > cautious of being too
                > direct and understood.
                > He'd rather have EKists
                > fill-in the blanks and
                > imagine what they want,
                > need and expect until
                > they go too far and have
                > to have a behaviour
                > adjustment by their RESA.
                > That's why Klemp usually
                > gives a very one dimensional
                > perspective when he tells
                > a story.
                >
                > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                > why put too much
                > effort into it! And, he
                > figures that all he needs
                > to do is the KISS thing
                > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                > Stupid. Of course EKies
                > will substitute Soul for
                > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                >
                > It's really quite amazing
                > how simple Klemp's
                > redundant message is.
                > If EKists would just compare
                > Klemp's simple minded
                > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                > leaders one would have
                > to wonder what they see
                > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                > but they just laugh at his
                > quirkiness because he's
                > operating on so many
                > high planes of consciousness
                > simultaneously. LOL!
                >
                > Just Google Kristamurti's
                > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                > isn't even in the same ball
                > park with the current Dali
                > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                > (pg. 385) he claims that
                > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                > religion while Eckankar
                > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                > But, EKists need to compare
                > the two leaders and how
                > they present themselves
                > and what they have to say.
                >
                > Will ECKists make the
                > comparison? No, of course
                > not! They won't even allow
                > the door to be opened a
                > crack because some light
                > might get in and show
                > them the Truth. They can't
                > handle the Truth and
                > would rather remain ignorant.
                > It's much easier, besides,
                > what would they replace
                > Eckankar with? It's too much
                > responsibility to think for
                > oneself and exercise free
                > will. And, it would make
                > life too lonely to lose all
                > of those EK friends.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
                > child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
                > least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                > charlatan to me.
                >
                >
                > Prometheus wrote:
                >
                > The December 2012
                > Eckankar Mystic World
                > in the Ask the Master
                > section are two interesting
                > questions and answers.
                >
                > The first question has
                > to do with Stress and
                > how to overcome it.
                >
                > HK's answer is wishy-
                > washy at best. He says
                > that stress is "very
                > uncomfortable... Yet
                > stress is a good teacher."
                >
                > Klemp goes on to say
                > that people can increase
                > their tolerance to stress
                > by eating healthy, getting
                > enough sleep, and by
                > "Reducing our overuse
                > of electronic devices."
                >
                > In other words it seems
                > Klemp is saying, in a
                > roundabout way, to use
                > moderation. After all,
                > he's saying to reduce
                > "overuse."
                >
                > Then, again, how does
                > a EK staffer at the ESC
                > not use their computer
                > 8 hours a day?
                >
                > The next question involves
                > reincarnation. This guy's
                > wife gave birth to a baby
                > boy and two days later his
                > mother translated (died).
                > He indirectly asked if this
                > new baby was his mother.
                >
                > Instead of giving this EKist
                > a direct answer, Klemp,
                > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                > When it comes to rebirth,
                > anything at all can happen...
                > Whichever Soul is now your
                > son, everything is in accord
                > with what is best for all around."
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello I Am, Non, and All, I m not so sure that humans will ever become like, God, our imagined or possible creator. And, if at all, certainly not in any
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                  I'm not so sure that humans
                  will ever become like, God,
                  our imagined or possible
                  creator. And, if at all, certainly
                  not in any lifetime soon.

                  But, it could be that the
                  universe(s) just happened
                  and that the remnants of
                  other life forms were spread
                  to this planet, and others,
                  via space rubble... from
                  destroyed civilizations
                  and planets. Or, was it an
                  intentional seeding by an
                  advanced race... which was,
                  itself, seeded by another
                  advanced race etc.

                  Maybe the "spiritual"
                  experiences we have
                  are the result of
                  interaction with the
                  quantum mechanical
                  field?

                  Anyway, it seems to me
                  that what really matters
                  are relationships. It's our
                  relationships with others,
                  even strangers, that matter
                  most. This is how we really
                  learn and grow. Loving
                  relationships are valuable.

                  Klemp, and others like
                  him, are: liars; posers;
                  have arrested development;
                  are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                  and are even psychopathic.
                  They are incapable of learning,
                  or caring about others (are
                  unloving) and attempt to
                  impede social progress and
                  justice. They use the rest of
                  us for their own personal
                  greed and selfish desires.

                  Then, again, this strife and
                  uncertainly (stress) that is
                  created can make life interesting
                  and a challenge, although,
                  it can/will also be physically
                  and emotionally painful.

                  But, having a regular life
                  without additional commitments
                  and involvements can also
                  offer rewarding experiences
                  and insights. We are never
                  all that alone. However, I'm
                  not sure how peace of any
                  sort (except in one's own mind)
                  will ever happen in a world
                  controlled by sociopaths.

                  One must care about everyone
                  and have caring relationships
                  with people in order for humankind
                  to advance and survive. To me,
                  this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                  I almost included animals, too,
                  but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                  include "caring" about them (all)
                  too.

                  How can one really "care" about
                  the sociopaths and psychopaths
                  except to keep them away from
                  nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                  people.

                  When one thinks about it the
                  definition of what's "normal"
                  keeps changing. The extroverts
                  seem to be more pathological
                  than the introverts don't you
                  agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                  to force us introverts to become
                  extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                  loves company I suppose or is
                  it that an army of glassy-eyed
                  introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                  is more intimidating.

                  In any case the idea of a "God"
                  to worship and viewed as being
                  "involved" in our lives detracts
                  from "us" being involved in our
                  lives because of the differences
                  we see in one another. This is
                  why there are so many different
                  religious dogmas of what's right
                  and wrong.

                  Therefore, the differences in the
                  way in which "God" is worshipped,
                  for me, shows that "God" does not
                  exist. We don't want to be alone
                  nor take responsibility for our own
                  actions. Thus, we blame God or
                  use God as our scape goat.

                  There are major flaws with all
                  of these religions and the so-called
                  "source" of their scriptures. It's
                  all hearsay and the only thing
                  that, supposedly, gives them
                  validation is that these various
                  people in history/myth that the
                  scribes wrote about are claimed
                  to have said or done some nice,
                  inspirational, brave, or insightful
                  things a very long time ago. Age/
                  time (being ancient) seems to
                  have given them credibility, because
                  it is believed and taught that
                  only Divine Intercession could
                  have been the source for their
                  Divine Inspiration.

                  But, IMO, there are many people,
                  today, who are not even followers
                  of these dogmas that are as, or
                  more: honest; brave; insightful;
                  inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                  than the prophets, saints, and founders
                  of these major and minor religions.
                  Many of these people inspired
                  others by never giving up in time
                  of conflict because, sometimes,
                  there weren't many other choices.
                  Even those who did give up and
                  had bad things befall them, still,
                  maintained their faith and this
                  fact turned them into "prophets"
                  or saints. If this is the standard
                  for religions there are an awful
                  lot of believers and faithful, today,
                  that just as deluded and desperate.

                  Prometheus


                  iam999freedom" wrote:
                  Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                  with unconditional love for the
                  master and you get a submissive
                  control pattern as your reward.
                  Buyer beware!

                  Prometheus, you wrote:
                  "All of this, it seems, is simply
                  an experiment to see if we
                  are all capable of evolving
                  into our "spiritual" potential.
                  Are we to become more than
                  merely a divine thought?
                  Maybe there is something
                  more to that piece of a mirror
                  analogy."

                  I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                  shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                  I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                  stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                  the end result of the mirror analagy.

                  I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                  see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

                  I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                  or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                  Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                  has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                  lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                  from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                  meaning than being in a pinball machine.

                  Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                  spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                  lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                  and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                  needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                  would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                  It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

                  Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                  that it would ever be necessary.

                  Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

                  I AM

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Non and All,
                  > Thanks for the insightful
                  > summary. I was exploring
                  > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                  > charismatic Christian churches
                  > and saw a reference to a
                  > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                  >
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                  >
                  > This person is mentioned
                  > not by Jesus but by one of
                  > his apostles in order to inspire
                  > Faith.
                  >
                  > Even when God seems to
                  > turn his back and: causes
                  > crops to fail; flocks to be
                  > lost; cities attacked and
                  > overrun by your enemies;
                  > people brutalized, tortured
                  > and killed, one is to have
                  > Faith in God and a hereafter
                  > reward for keeping this
                  > faith. God's ego needs
                  > you to believe in him
                  > regardless of what pain
                  > he allows to befall you.
                  >
                  > One needs to project
                  > a sense of hope in order
                  > to better endure life, as
                  > it is, no matter how bad.
                  >
                  > And, it's easier to face these
                  > challenges when you believe
                  > that God is on your side and
                  > not that of your oppressor.
                  >
                  > However, does God really
                  > take sides? It seems that God
                  > is/was created in man's image.
                  >
                  > All of this, it seems, is simply
                  > an experiment to see if we
                  > are all capable of evolving
                  > into our "spiritual" potential.
                  > Are we to become more than
                  > merely a divine thought?
                  > Maybe there is something
                  > more to that piece of a mirror
                  > analogy.
                  >
                  > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                  > has the belief that you (and your
                  > fellow believers or countrymen)
                  > deserved the punishments as
                  > repayment for sin. Some call it
                  > Karma or cause and effect, or
                  > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                  > most religions see everyday
                  > living and hardships as a test
                  > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                  > to donate money to support
                  > the specific dogma that, basically,
                  > says and promises the same
                  > or similar things in the imagined
                  > hereafter.
                  >
                  > Plus, each religion has always
                  > blamed the non-believers for
                  > the sins that they suffer under
                  > as well. Eckankar is no different
                  > and Klemp is more like these
                  > preachers than EKists could ever
                  > admit.
                  >
                  > Well, got to go now....
                  > I just had some thoughts
                  > to share.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  "Non" wrote:
                  So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                  compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                  exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                  beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                  from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                  tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                  he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                  answers to ask the master etc.
                  >
                  Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                  as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                  not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                  is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                  Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                  leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                  him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                  with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                  by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                  >
                  They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                  you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                  advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                  on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                  drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                  it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                  >
                  > Non ;)
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Janice,
                  > Yes, one would think that
                  > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                  > would, at least, attempt
                  > to live up to his PR, but
                  > that's not the case with
                  > Klemp. Why put himself
                  > out there by demonstrating
                  > his powers? It's not like
                  > he announced to the
                  > whole world that he was....
                  > oh wait, he did!
                  >
                  > That was a long time ago
                  > and he never did make
                  > any predictions as most
                  > prophets do. Even Twit
                  > made some predictions.
                  > But, I'm sure that EKists
                  > haven't noticed and don't
                  > mine and that's why he
                  > doesn't feel any pressure
                  > to preform his responsibilities
                  > as a real prophet.
                  >
                  > Instead, Harold is very
                  > cautious of being too
                  > direct and understood.
                  > He'd rather have EKists
                  > fill-in the blanks and
                  > imagine what they want,
                  > need and expect until
                  > they go too far and have
                  > to have a behaviour
                  > adjustment by their RESA.
                  > That's why Klemp usually
                  > gives a very one dimensional
                  > perspective when he tells
                  > a story.
                  >
                  > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                  > why put too much
                  > effort into it! And, he
                  > figures that all he needs
                  > to do is the KISS thing
                  > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                  > Stupid. Of course EKies
                  > will substitute Soul for
                  > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                  >
                  > It's really quite amazing
                  > how simple Klemp's
                  > redundant message is.
                  > If EKists would just compare
                  > Klemp's simple minded
                  > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                  > leaders one would have
                  > to wonder what they see
                  > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                  > but they just laugh at his
                  > quirkiness because he's
                  > operating on so many
                  > high planes of consciousness
                  > simultaneously. LOL!
                  >
                  > Just Google Kristamurti's
                  > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                  > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                  > isn't even in the same ball
                  > park with the current Dali
                  > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                  > (pg. 385) he claims that
                  > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                  > religion while Eckankar
                  > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                  > But, EKists need to compare
                  > the two leaders and how
                  > they present themselves
                  > and what they have to say.
                  >
                  > Will ECKists make the
                  > comparison? No, of course
                  > not! They won't even allow
                  > the door to be opened a
                  > crack because some light
                  > might get in and show
                  > them the Truth. They can't
                  > handle the Truth and
                  > would rather remain ignorant.
                  > It's much easier, besides,
                  > what would they replace
                  > Eckankar with? It's too much
                  > responsibility to think for
                  > oneself and exercise free
                  > will. And, it would make
                  > life too lonely to lose all
                  > of those EK friends.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                  > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                  > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                  > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                  > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                  > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                  > charlatan to me.
                  >
                  >
                  > Prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > The December 2012
                  > Eckankar Mystic World
                  > in the Ask the Master
                  > section are two interesting
                  > questions and answers.
                  >
                  > The first question has
                  > to do with Stress and
                  > how to overcome it.
                  >
                  > HK's answer is wishy-
                  > washy at best. He says
                  > that stress is "very
                  > uncomfortable... Yet
                  > stress is a good teacher."
                  >
                  > Klemp goes on to say
                  > that people can increase
                  > their tolerance to stress
                  > by eating healthy, getting
                  > enough sleep, and by
                  > "Reducing our overuse
                  > of electronic devices."
                  >
                  > In other words it seems
                  > Klemp is saying, in a
                  > roundabout way, to use
                  > moderation. After all,
                  > he's saying to reduce
                  > "overuse."
                  >
                  > Then, again, how does
                  > a EK staffer at the ESC
                  > not use their computer
                  > 8 hours a day?
                  >
                  > The next question involves
                  > reincarnation. This guy's
                  > wife gave birth to a baby
                  > boy and two days later his
                  > mother translated (died).
                  > He indirectly asked if this
                  > new baby was his mother.
                  >
                  > Instead of giving this EKist
                  > a direct answer, Klemp,
                  > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                  > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                  > When it comes to rebirth,
                  > anything at all can happen...
                  > Whichever Soul is now your
                  > son, everything is in accord
                  > with what is best for all around."
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                • Janice Pfeiffer
                  Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                    Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 

                    --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM

                     
                    Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                    I'm not so sure that humans
                    will ever become like, God,
                    our imagined or possible
                    creator. And, if at all, certainly
                    not in any lifetime soon.

                    But, it could be that the
                    universe(s) just happened
                    and that the remnants of
                    other life forms were spread
                    to this planet, and others,
                    via space rubble... from
                    destroyed civilizations
                    and planets. Or, was it an
                    intentional seeding by an
                    advanced race... which was,
                    itself, seeded by another
                    advanced race etc.

                    Maybe the "spiritual"
                    experiences we have
                    are the result of
                    interaction with the
                    quantum mechanical
                    field?

                    Anyway, it seems to me
                    that what really matters
                    are relationships. It's our
                    relationships with others,
                    even strangers, that matter
                    most. This is how we really
                    learn and grow. Loving
                    relationships are valuable.

                    Klemp, and others like
                    him, are: liars; posers;
                    have arrested development;
                    are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                    and are even psychopathic.
                    They are incapable of learning,
                    or caring about others (are
                    unloving) and attempt to
                    impede social progress and
                    justice. They use the rest of
                    us for their own personal
                    greed and selfish desires.

                    Then, again, this strife and
                    uncertainly (stress) that is
                    created can make life interesting
                    and a challenge, although,
                    it can/will also be physically
                    and emotionally painful.

                    But, having a regular life
                    without additional commitments
                    and involvements can also
                    offer rewarding experiences
                    and insights. We are never
                    all that alone. However, I'm
                    not sure how peace of any
                    sort (except in one's own mind)
                    will ever happen in a world
                    controlled by sociopaths.

                    One must care about everyone
                    and have caring relationships
                    with people in order for humankind
                    to advance and survive. To me,
                    this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                    I almost included animals, too,
                    but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                    include "caring" about them (all)
                    too.

                    How can one really "care" about
                    the sociopaths and psychopaths
                    except to keep them away from
                    nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                    people.

                    When one thinks about it the
                    definition of what's "normal"
                    keeps changing. The extroverts
                    seem to be more pathological
                    than the introverts don't you
                    agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                    to force us introverts to become
                    extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                    loves company I suppose or is
                    it that an army of glassy-eyed
                    introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                    is more intimidating.

                    In any case the idea of a "God"
                    to worship and viewed as being
                    "involved" in our lives detracts
                    from "us" being involved in our
                    lives because of the differences
                    we see in one another. This is
                    why there are so many different
                    religious dogmas of what's right
                    and wrong.

                    Therefore, the differences in the
                    way in which "God" is worshipped,
                    for me, shows that "God" does not
                    exist. We don't want to be alone
                    nor take responsibility for our own
                    actions. Thus, we blame God or
                    use God as our scape goat.

                    There are major flaws with all
                    of these religions and the so-called
                    "source" of their scriptures. It's
                    all hearsay and the only thing
                    that, supposedly, gives them
                    validation is that these various
                    people in history/myth that the
                    scribes wrote about are claimed
                    to have said or done some nice,
                    inspirational, brave, or insightful
                    things a very long time ago. Age/
                    time (being ancient) seems to
                    have given them credibility, because
                    it is believed and taught that
                    only Divine Intercession could
                    have been the source for their
                    Divine Inspiration.

                    But, IMO, there are many people,
                    today, who are not even followers
                    of these dogmas that are as, or
                    more: honest; brave; insightful;
                    inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                    than the prophets, saints, and founders
                    of these major and minor religions.
                    Many of these people inspired
                    others by never giving up in time
                    of conflict because, sometimes,
                    there weren't many other choices.
                    Even those who did give up and
                    had bad things befall them, still,
                    maintained their faith and this
                    fact turned them into "prophets"
                    or saints. If this is the standard
                    for religions there are an awful
                    lot of believers and faithful, today,
                    that just as deluded and desperate.

                    Prometheus


                    iam999freedom" wrote:
                    Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                    with unconditional love for the
                    master and you get a submissive
                    control pattern as your reward.
                    Buyer beware!

                    Prometheus, you wrote:
                    "All of this, it seems, is simply
                    an experiment to see if we
                    are all capable of evolving
                    into our "spiritual" potential.
                    Are we to become more than
                    merely a divine thought?
                    Maybe there is something
                    more to that piece of a mirror
                    analogy."

                    I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                    shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                    I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                    stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                    the end result of the mirror analagy.

                    I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                    see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

                    I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                    or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                    Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                    has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                    lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                    from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                    meaning than being in a pinball machine.

                    Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                    spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                    lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                    and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                    needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                    would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                    It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

                    Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                    that it would ever be necessary.

                    Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

                    I AM

                    prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Non and All,
                    > Thanks for the insightful
                    > summary. I was exploring
                    > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                    > charismatic Christian churches
                    > and saw a reference to a
                    > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                    >
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                    >
                    > This person is mentioned
                    > not by Jesus but by one of
                    > his apostles in order to inspire
                    > Faith.
                    >
                    > Even when God seems to
                    > turn his back and: causes
                    > crops to fail; flocks to be
                    > lost; cities attacked and
                    > overrun by your enemies;
                    > people brutalized, tortured
                    > and killed, one is to have
                    > Faith in God and a hereafter
                    > reward for keeping this
                    > faith. God's ego needs
                    > you to believe in him
                    > regardless of what pain
                    > he allows to befall you.
                    >
                    > One needs to project
                    > a sense of hope in order
                    > to better endure life, as
                    > it is, no matter how bad.
                    >
                    > And, it's easier to face these
                    > challenges when you believe
                    > that God is on your side and
                    > not that of your oppressor.
                    >
                    > However, does God really
                    > take sides? It seems that God
                    > is/was created in man's image.
                    >
                    > All of this, it seems, is simply
                    > an experiment to see if we
                    > are all capable of evolving
                    > into our "spiritual" potential.
                    > Are we to become more than
                    > merely a divine thought?
                    > Maybe there is something
                    > more to that piece of a mirror
                    > analogy.
                    >
                    > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                    > has the belief that you (and your
                    > fellow believers or countrymen)
                    > deserved the punishments as
                    > repayment for sin. Some call it
                    > Karma or cause and effect, or
                    > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                    > most religions see everyday
                    > living and hardships as a test
                    > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                    > to donate money to support
                    > the specific dogma that, basically,
                    > says and promises the same
                    > or similar things in the imagined
                    > hereafter.
                    >
                    > Plus, each religion has always
                    > blamed the non-believers for
                    > the sins that they suffer under
                    > as well. Eckankar is no different
                    > and Klemp is more like these
                    > preachers than EKists could ever
                    > admit.
                    >
                    > Well, got to go now....
                    > I just had some thoughts
                    > to share.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    "Non" wrote:
                    So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                    compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                    exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                    beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                    from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                    tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                    he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                    answers to ask the master etc.
                    >
                    Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                    as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                    not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                    is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                    Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                    leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                    him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                    with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                    by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                    >
                    They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                    you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                    advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                    on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                    drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                    it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                    >
                    > Non ;)
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Janice,
                    > Yes, one would think that
                    > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                    > would, at least, attempt
                    > to live up to his PR, but
                    > that's not the case with
                    > Klemp. Why put himself
                    > out there by demonstrating
                    > his powers? It's not like
                    > he announced to the
                    > whole world that he was....
                    > oh wait, he did!
                    >
                    > That was a long time ago
                    > and he never did make
                    > any predictions as most
                    > prophets do. Even Twit
                    > made some predictions.
                    > But, I'm sure that EKists
                    > haven't noticed and don't
                    > mine and that's why he
                    > doesn't feel any pressure
                    > to preform his responsibilities
                    > as a real prophet.
                    >
                    > Instead, Harold is very
                    > cautious of being too
                    > direct and understood.
                    > He'd rather have EKists
                    > fill-in the blanks and
                    > imagine what they want,
                    > need and expect until
                    > they go too far and have
                    > to have a behaviour
                    > adjustment by their RESA.
                    > That's why Klemp usually
                    > gives a very one dimensional
                    > perspective when he tells
                    > a story.
                    >
                    > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                    > why put too much
                    > effort into it! And, he
                    > figures that all he needs
                    > to do is the KISS thing
                    > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                    > Stupid. Of course EKies
                    > will substitute Soul for
                    > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                    >
                    > It's really quite amazing
                    > how simple Klemp's
                    > redundant message is.
                    > If EKists would just compare
                    > Klemp's simple minded
                    > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                    > leaders one would have
                    > to wonder what they see
                    > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                    > but they just laugh at his
                    > quirkiness because he's
                    > operating on so many
                    > high planes of consciousness
                    > simultaneously. LOL!
                    >
                    > Just Google Kristamurti's
                    > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                    > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                    > isn't even in the same ball
                    > park with the current Dali
                    > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                    > (pg. 385) he claims that
                    > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                    > religion while Eckankar
                    > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                    > But, EKists need to compare
                    > the two leaders and how
                    > they present themselves
                    > and what they have to say.
                    >
                    > Will ECKists make the
                    > comparison? No, of course
                    > not! They won't even allow
                    > the door to be opened a
                    > crack because some light
                    > might get in and show
                    > them the Truth. They can't
                    > handle the Truth and
                    > would rather remain ignorant.
                    > It's much easier, besides,
                    > what would they replace
                    > Eckankar with? It's too much
                    > responsibility to think for
                    > oneself and exercise free
                    > will. And, it would make
                    > life too lonely to lose all
                    > of those EK friends.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                    > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                    > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                    > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                    > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                    > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                    > charlatan to me.
                    >
                    >
                    > Prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > The December 2012
                    > Eckankar Mystic World
                    > in the Ask the Master
                    > section are two interesting
                    > questions and answers.
                    >
                    > The first question has
                    > to do with Stress and
                    > how to overcome it.
                    >
                    > HK's answer is wishy-
                    > washy at best. He says
                    > that stress is "very
                    > uncomfortable... Yet
                    > stress is a good teacher."
                    >
                    > Klemp goes on to say
                    > that people can increase
                    > their tolerance to stress
                    > by eating healthy, getting
                    > enough sleep, and by
                    > "Reducing our overuse
                    > of electronic devices."
                    >
                    > In other words it seems
                    > Klemp is saying, in a
                    > roundabout way, to use
                    > moderation. After all,
                    > he's saying to reduce
                    > "overuse."
                    >
                    > Then, again, how does
                    > a EK staffer at the ESC
                    > not use their computer
                    > 8 hours a day?
                    >
                    > The next question involves
                    > reincarnation. This guy's
                    > wife gave birth to a baby
                    > boy and two days later his
                    > mother translated (died).
                    > He indirectly asked if this
                    > new baby was his mother.
                    >
                    > Instead of giving this EKist
                    > a direct answer, Klemp,
                    > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                    > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                    > When it comes to rebirth,
                    > anything at all can happen...
                    > Whichever Soul is now your
                    > son, everything is in accord
                    > with what is best for all around."
                    >
                    > Prometheus

                  • tuza8
                    Hi prometheus973,I agree what you said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name is master ching hai, master ching hai claim
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                      Hi prometheus973,I agree what you
                      said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name is master ching hai, master ching hai claim herself is 8 billion plane initiation level,do you believe it?in 1985 she become master and began taught mediatation on light and sound,whom said come from higher world into this lower world ,her also said come to this lower world many times,alway is a master for help people.do you believe?
                      --- In EckankarSurvirvorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                      > I'm not so sure that humans
                      > will ever become like, God,
                      > our imagined or possible
                      > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                      > not in any lifetime soon.
                      >
                      > But, it could be that the
                      > universe(s) just happened
                      > and that the remnants of
                      > other life forms were spread
                      > to this planet, and others,
                      > via space rubble... from
                      > destroyed civilizations
                      > and planets. Or, was it an
                      > intentional seeding by an
                      > advanced race... which was,
                      > itself, seeded by another
                      > advanced race etc.
                      >
                      > Maybe the "spiritual"
                      > experiences we have
                      > are the result of
                      > interaction with the
                      > quantum mechanical
                      > field?
                      >
                      > Anyway, it seems to me
                      > that what really matters
                      > are relationships. It's our
                      > relationships with others,
                      > even strangers, that matter
                      > most. This is how we really
                      > learn and grow. Loving
                      > relationships are valuable.
                      >
                      > Klemp, and others like
                      > him, are: liars; posers;
                      > have arrested development;
                      > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                      > and are even psychopathic.
                      > They are incapable of learning,
                      > or caring about others (are
                      > unloving) and attempt to
                      > impede social progress and
                      > justice. They use the rest of
                      > us for their own personal
                      > greed and selfish desires.
                      >
                      > Then, again, this strife and
                      > uncertainly (stress) that is
                      > created can make life interesting
                      > and a challenge, although,
                      > it can/will also be physically
                      > and emotionally painful.
                      >
                      > But, having a regular life
                      > without additional commitments
                      > and involvements can also
                      > offer rewarding experiences
                      > and insights. We are never
                      > all that alone. However, I'm
                      > not sure how peace of any
                      > sort (except in one's own mind)
                      > will ever happen in a world
                      > controlled by sociopaths.
                      >
                      > One must care about everyone
                      > and have caring relationships
                      > with people in order for humankind
                      > to advance and survive. To me,
                      > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                      > I almost included animals, too,
                      > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                      > include "caring" about them (all)
                      > too.
                      >
                      > How can one really "care" about
                      > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                      > except to keep them away from
                      > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                      > people.
                      >
                      > When one thinks about it the
                      > definition of what's "normal"
                      > keeps changing. The extroverts
                      > seem to be more pathological
                      > than the introverts don't you
                      > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                      > to force us introverts to become
                      > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                      > loves company I suppose or is
                      > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                      > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                      > is more intimidating.
                      >
                      > In any case the idea of a "God"
                      > to worship and viewed as being
                      > "involved" in our lives detracts
                      > from "us" being involved in our
                      > lives because of the differences
                      > we see in one another. This is
                      > why there are so many different
                      > religious dogmas of what's right
                      > and wrong.
                      >
                      > Therefore, the differences in the
                      > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                      > for me, shows that "God" does not
                      > exist. We don't want to be alone
                      > nor take responsibility for our own
                      > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                      > use God as our scape goat.
                      >
                      > There are major flaws with all
                      > of these religions and the so-called
                      > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                      > all hearsay and the only thing
                      > that, supposedly, gives them
                      > validation is that these various
                      > people in history/myth that the
                      > scribes wrote about are claimed
                      > to have said or done some nice,
                      > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                      > things a very long time ago. Age/
                      > time (being ancient) seems to
                      > have given them credibility, because
                      > it is believed and taught that
                      > only Divine Intercession could
                      > have been the source for their
                      > Divine Inspiration.
                      >
                      > But, IMO, there are many people,
                      > today, who are not even followers
                      > of these dogmas that are as, or
                      > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                      > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                      > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                      > of these major and minor religions.
                      > Many of these people inspired
                      > others by never giving up in time
                      > of conflict because, sometimes,
                      > there weren't many other choices.
                      > Even those who did give up and
                      > had bad things befall them, still,
                      > maintained their faith and this
                      > fact turned them into "prophets"
                      > or saints. If this is the standard
                      > for religions there are an awful
                      > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                      > that just as deluded and desperate.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > iam999freedom" wrote:
                      > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                      > with unconditional love for the
                      > master and you get a submissive
                      > control pattern as your reward.
                      > Buyer beware!
                      >
                      > Prometheus, you wrote:
                      > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                      > an experiment to see if we
                      > are all capable of evolving
                      > into our "spiritual" potential.
                      > Are we to become more than
                      > merely a divine thought?
                      > Maybe there is something
                      > more to that piece of a mirror
                      > analogy."
                      >
                      > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                      > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                      > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                      > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                      > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                      >
                      > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                      > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                      >
                      > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                      > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                      > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                      > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                      > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                      > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                      > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                      >
                      > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                      > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                      > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                      > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                      > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                      > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                      > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                      >
                      > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                      > that it would ever be necessary.
                      >
                      > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                      >
                      > I AM
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Non and All,
                      > > Thanks for the insightful
                      > > summary. I was exploring
                      > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                      > > charismatic Christian churches
                      > > and saw a reference to a
                      > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                      > >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                      > >
                      > > This person is mentioned
                      > > not by Jesus but by one of
                      > > his apostles in order to inspire
                      > > Faith.
                      > >
                      > > Even when God seems to
                      > > turn his back and: causes
                      > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                      > > lost; cities attacked and
                      > > overrun by your enemies;
                      > > people brutalized, tortured
                      > > and killed, one is to have
                      > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                      > > reward for keeping this
                      > > faith. God's ego needs
                      > > you to believe in him
                      > > regardless of what pain
                      > > he allows to befall you.
                      > >
                      > > One needs to project
                      > > a sense of hope in order
                      > > to better endure life, as
                      > > it is, no matter how bad.
                      > >
                      > > And, it's easier to face these
                      > > challenges when you believe
                      > > that God is on your side and
                      > > not that of your oppressor.
                      > >
                      > > However, does God really
                      > > take sides? It seems that God
                      > > is/was created in man's image.
                      > >
                      > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                      > > an experiment to see if we
                      > > are all capable of evolving
                      > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                      > > Are we to become more than
                      > > merely a divine thought?
                      > > Maybe there is something
                      > > more to that piece of a mirror
                      > > analogy.
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                      > > has the belief that you (and your
                      > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                      > > deserved the punishments as
                      > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                      > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                      > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                      > > most religions see everyday
                      > > living and hardships as a test
                      > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                      > > to donate money to support
                      > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                      > > says and promises the same
                      > > or similar things in the imagined
                      > > hereafter.
                      > >
                      > > Plus, each religion has always
                      > > blamed the non-believers for
                      > > the sins that they suffer under
                      > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                      > > and Klemp is more like these
                      > > preachers than EKists could ever
                      > > admit.
                      > >
                      > > Well, got to go now....
                      > > I just had some thoughts
                      > > to share.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > "Non" wrote:
                      > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                      > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                      > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                      > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                      > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                      > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                      > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                      > answers to ask the master etc.
                      > >
                      > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                      > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                      > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                      > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                      > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                      > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                      > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                      > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                      > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                      > >
                      > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                      > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                      > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                      > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                      > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                      > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                      > >
                      > > Non ;)
                      > >
                      > > prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Janice,
                      > > Yes, one would think that
                      > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                      > > would, at least, attempt
                      > > to live up to his PR, but
                      > > that's not the case with
                      > > Klemp. Why put himself
                      > > out there by demonstrating
                      > > his powers? It's not like
                      > > he announced to the
                      > > whole world that he was....
                      > > oh wait, he did!
                      > >
                      > > That was a long time ago
                      > > and he never did make
                      > > any predictions as most
                      > > prophets do. Even Twit
                      > > made some predictions.
                      > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                      > > haven't noticed and don't
                      > > mine and that's why he
                      > > doesn't feel any pressure
                      > > to preform his responsibilities
                      > > as a real prophet.
                      > >
                      > > Instead, Harold is very
                      > > cautious of being too
                      > > direct and understood.
                      > > He'd rather have EKists
                      > > fill-in the blanks and
                      > > imagine what they want,
                      > > need and expect until
                      > > they go too far and have
                      > > to have a behaviour
                      > > adjustment by their RESA.
                      > > That's why Klemp usually
                      > > gives a very one dimensional
                      > > perspective when he tells
                      > > a story.
                      > >
                      > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                      > > why put too much
                      > > effort into it! And, he
                      > > figures that all he needs
                      > > to do is the KISS thing
                      > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                      > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                      > > will substitute Soul for
                      > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                      > >
                      > > It's really quite amazing
                      > > how simple Klemp's
                      > > redundant message is.
                      > > If EKists would just compare
                      > > Klemp's simple minded
                      > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                      > > leaders one would have
                      > > to wonder what they see
                      > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                      > > but they just laugh at his
                      > > quirkiness because he's
                      > > operating on so many
                      > > high planes of consciousness
                      > > simultaneously. LOL!
                      > >
                      > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                      > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                      > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                      > > isn't even in the same ball
                      > > park with the current Dali
                      > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                      > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                      > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                      > > religion while Eckankar
                      > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                      > > But, EKists need to compare
                      > > the two leaders and how
                      > > they present themselves
                      > > and what they have to say.
                      > >
                      > > Will ECKists make the
                      > > comparison? No, of course
                      > > not! They won't even allow
                      > > the door to be opened a
                      > > crack because some light
                      > > might get in and show
                      > > them the Truth. They can't
                      > > handle the Truth and
                      > > would rather remain ignorant.
                      > > It's much easier, besides,
                      > > what would they replace
                      > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                      > > responsibility to think for
                      > > oneself and exercise free
                      > > will. And, it would make
                      > > life too lonely to lose all
                      > > of those EK friends.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                      > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                      > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                      > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                      > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                      > > charlatan to me.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > The December 2012
                      > > Eckankar Mystic World
                      > > in the Ask the Master
                      > > section are two interesting
                      > > questions and answers.
                      > >
                      > > The first question has
                      > > to do with Stress and
                      > > how to overcome it.
                      > >
                      > > HK's answer is wishy-
                      > > washy at best. He says
                      > > that stress is "very
                      > > uncomfortable... Yet
                      > > stress is a good teacher."
                      > >
                      > > Klemp goes on to say
                      > > that people can increase
                      > > their tolerance to stress
                      > > by eating healthy, getting
                      > > enough sleep, and by
                      > > "Reducing our overuse
                      > > of electronic devices."
                      > >
                      > > In other words it seems
                      > > Klemp is saying, in a
                      > > roundabout way, to use
                      > > moderation. After all,
                      > > he's saying to reduce
                      > > "overuse."
                      > >
                      > > Then, again, how does
                      > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                      > > not use their computer
                      > > 8 hours a day?
                      > >
                      > > The next question involves
                      > > reincarnation. This guy's
                      > > wife gave birth to a baby
                      > > boy and two days later his
                      > > mother translated (died).
                      > > He indirectly asked if this
                      > > new baby was his mother.
                      > >
                      > > Instead of giving this EKist
                      > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                      > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                      > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                      > > When it comes to rebirth,
                      > > anything at all can happen...
                      > > Whichever Soul is now your
                      > > son, everything is in accord
                      > > with what is best for all around."
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      >
                    • iam999freedom
                      Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning,
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

                        Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

                        I AM

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        >
                        > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                        > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                        > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                        > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                        >
                        > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > From: prometheus_973
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                        > I'm not so sure that humans
                        > will ever become like, God,
                        > our imagined or possible
                        > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                        > not in any lifetime soon.
                        >
                        > But, it could be that the
                        > universe(s) just happened
                        > and that the remnants of
                        > other life forms were spread
                        > to this planet, and others,
                        > via space rubble... from
                        > destroyed civilizations
                        > and planets. Or, was it an
                        > intentional seeding by an
                        > advanced race... which was,
                        > itself, seeded by another
                        > advanced race etc.
                        >
                        > Maybe the "spiritual"
                        > experiences we have
                        > are the result of
                        > interaction with the
                        > quantum mechanical
                        > field?
                        >
                        > Anyway, it seems to me
                        > that what really matters
                        > are relationships. It's our
                        > relationships with others,
                        > even strangers, that matter
                        > most. This is how we really
                        > learn and grow. Loving
                        > relationships are valuable.
                        >
                        > Klemp, and others like
                        > him, are: liars; posers;
                        > have arrested development;
                        > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                        > and are even psychopathic.
                        > They are incapable of learning,
                        > or caring about others (are
                        > unloving) and attempt to
                        > impede social progress and
                        > justice. They use the rest of
                        > us for their own personal
                        > greed and selfish desires.
                        >
                        > Then, again, this strife and
                        > uncertainly (stress) that is
                        > created can make life interesting
                        > and a challenge, although,
                        > it can/will also be physically
                        > and emotionally painful.
                        >
                        > But, having a regular life
                        > without additional commitments
                        > and involvements can also
                        > offer rewarding experiences
                        > and insights. We are never
                        > all that alone. However, I'm
                        > not sure how peace of any
                        > sort (except in one's own mind)
                        > will ever happen in a world
                        > controlled by sociopaths.
                        >
                        > One must care about everyone
                        > and have caring relationships
                        > with people in order for humankind
                        > to advance and survive. To me,
                        > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                        > I almost included animals, too,
                        > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                        > include "caring" about them (all)
                        > too.
                        >
                        > How can one really "care" about
                        > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                        > except to keep them away from
                        > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                        > people.
                        >
                        > When one thinks about it the
                        > definition of what's "normal"
                        > keeps changing. The extroverts
                        > seem to be more pathological
                        > than the introverts don't you
                        > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                        > to force us introverts to become
                        > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                        > loves company I suppose or is
                        > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                        > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                        > is more intimidating.
                        >
                        > In any case the idea of a "God"
                        > to worship and viewed as being
                        > "involved" in our lives detracts
                        > from "us" being involved in our
                        > lives because of the differences
                        > we see in one another. This is
                        > why there are so many different
                        > religious dogmas of what's right
                        > and wrong.
                        >
                        > Therefore, the differences in the
                        > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                        > for me, shows that "God" does not
                        > exist. We don't want to be alone
                        > nor take responsibility for our own
                        > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                        > use God as our scape goat.
                        >
                        > There are major flaws with all
                        > of these religions and the so-called
                        > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                        > all hearsay and the only thing
                        > that, supposedly, gives them
                        > validation is that these various
                        > people in history/myth that the
                        > scribes wrote about are claimed
                        > to have said or done some nice,
                        > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                        > things a very long time ago. Age/
                        > time (being ancient) seems to
                        > have given them credibility, because
                        > it is believed and taught that
                        > only Divine Intercession could
                        > have been the source for their
                        > Divine Inspiration.
                        >
                        > But, IMO, there are many people,
                        > today, who are not even followers
                        > of these dogmas that are as, or
                        > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                        > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                        > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                        > of these major and minor religions.
                        > Many of these people inspired
                        > others by never giving up in time
                        > of conflict because, sometimes,
                        > there weren't many other choices.
                        > Even those who did give up and
                        > had bad things befall them, still,
                        > maintained their faith and this
                        > fact turned them into "prophets"
                        > or saints. If this is the standard
                        > for religions there are an awful
                        > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                        > that just as deluded and desperate.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > iam999freedom" wrote:
                        > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                        > with unconditional love for the
                        > master and you get a submissive
                        > control pattern as your reward.
                        > Buyer beware!
                        >
                        > Prometheus, you wrote:
                        > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                        > an experiment to see if we
                        > are all capable of evolving
                        > into our "spiritual" potential.
                        > Are we to become more than
                        > merely a divine thought?
                        > Maybe there is something
                        > more to that piece of a mirror
                        > analogy."
                        >
                        > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                        > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                        > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                        > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                        > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                        >
                        > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                        > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                        >
                        > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                        > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                        > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                        > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                        > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                        > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                        > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                        >
                        > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                        > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                        > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                        > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                        > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                        > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                        > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                        >
                        > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                        > that it would ever be necessary.
                        >
                        > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                        >
                        > I AM
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello Non and All,
                        > > Thanks for the insightful
                        > > summary. I was exploring
                        > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                        > > charismatic Christian churches
                        > > and saw a reference to a
                        > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                        > >
                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                        > >
                        > > This person is mentioned
                        > > not by Jesus but by one of
                        > > his apostles in order to inspire
                        > > Faith.
                        > >
                        > > Even when God seems to
                        > > turn his back and: causes
                        > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                        > > lost; cities attacked and
                        > > overrun by your enemies;
                        > > people brutalized, tortured
                        > > and killed, one is to have
                        > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                        > > reward for keeping this
                        > > faith. God's ego needs
                        > > you to believe in him
                        > > regardless of what pain
                        > > he allows to befall you.
                        > >
                        > > One needs to project
                        > > a sense of hope in order
                        > > to better endure life, as
                        > > it is, no matter how bad.
                        > >
                        > > And, it's easier to face these
                        > > challenges when you believe
                        > > that God is on your side and
                        > > not that of your oppressor.
                        > >
                        > > However, does God really
                        > > take sides? It seems that God
                        > > is/was created in man's image.
                        > >
                        > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                        > > an experiment to see if we
                        > > are all capable of evolving
                        > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                        > > Are we to become more than
                        > > merely a divine thought?
                        > > Maybe there is something
                        > > more to that piece of a mirror
                        > > analogy.
                        > >
                        > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                        > > has the belief that you (and your
                        > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                        > > deserved the punishments as
                        > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                        > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                        > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                        > > most religions see everyday
                        > > living and hardships as a test
                        > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                        > > to donate money to support
                        > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                        > > says and promises the same
                        > > or similar things in the imagined
                        > > hereafter.
                        > >
                        > > Plus, each religion has always
                        > > blamed the non-believers for
                        > > the sins that they suffer under
                        > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                        > > and Klemp is more like these
                        > > preachers than EKists could ever
                        > > admit.
                        > >
                        > > Well, got to go now....
                        > > I just had some thoughts
                        > > to share.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > "Non" wrote:
                        > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                        > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                        > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                        > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                        > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                        > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                        > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                        > answers to ask the master etc.
                        > >
                        > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                        > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                        > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                        > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                        > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                        > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                        > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                        > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                        > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                        > >
                        > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                        > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                        > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                        > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                        > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                        > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                        > >
                        > > Non ;)
                        > >
                        > > prometheus wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello Janice,
                        > > Yes, one would think that
                        > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                        > > would, at least, attempt
                        > > to live up to his PR, but
                        > > that's not the case with
                        > > Klemp. Why put himself
                        > > out there by demonstrating
                        > > his powers? It's not like
                        > > he announced to the
                        > > whole world that he was....
                        > > oh wait, he did!
                        > >
                        > > That was a long time ago
                        > > and he never did make
                        > > any predictions as most
                        > > prophets do. Even Twit
                        > > made some predictions.
                        > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                        > > haven't noticed and don't
                        > > mine and that's why he
                        > > doesn't feel any pressure
                        > > to preform his responsibilities
                        > > as a real prophet.
                        > >
                        > > Instead, Harold is very
                        > > cautious of being too
                        > > direct and understood.
                        > > He'd rather have EKists
                        > > fill-in the blanks and
                        > > imagine what they want,
                        > > need and expect until
                        > > they go too far and have
                        > > to have a behaviour
                        > > adjustment by their RESA.
                        > > That's why Klemp usually
                        > > gives a very one dimensional
                        > > perspective when he tells
                        > > a story.
                        > >
                        > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                        > > why put too much
                        > > effort into it! And, he
                        > > figures that all he needs
                        > > to do is the KISS thing
                        > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                        > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                        > > will substitute Soul for
                        > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                        > >
                        > > It's really quite amazing
                        > > how simple Klemp's
                        > > redundant message is.
                        > > If EKists would just compare
                        > > Klemp's simple minded
                        > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                        > > leaders one would have
                        > > to wonder what they see
                        > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                        > > but they just laugh at his
                        > > quirkiness because he's
                        > > operating on so many
                        > > high planes of consciousness
                        > > simultaneously. LOL!
                        > >
                        > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                        > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                        > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                        > > isn't even in the same ball
                        > > park with the current Dali
                        > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                        > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                        > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                        > > religion while Eckankar
                        > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                        > > But, EKists need to compare
                        > > the two leaders and how
                        > > they present themselves
                        > > and what they have to say.
                        > >
                        > > Will ECKists make the
                        > > comparison? No, of course
                        > > not! They won't even allow
                        > > the door to be opened a
                        > > crack because some light
                        > > might get in and show
                        > > them the Truth. They can't
                        > > handle the Truth and
                        > > would rather remain ignorant.
                        > > It's much easier, besides,
                        > > what would they replace
                        > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                        > > responsibility to think for
                        > > oneself and exercise free
                        > > will. And, it would make
                        > > life too lonely to lose all
                        > > of those EK friends.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                        > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                        > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                        > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                        > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                        > > charlatan to me.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus wrote:
                        > >
                        > > The December 2012
                        > > Eckankar Mystic World
                        > > in the Ask the Master
                        > > section are two interesting
                        > > questions and answers.
                        > >
                        > > The first question has
                        > > to do with Stress and
                        > > how to overcome it.
                        > >
                        > > HK's answer is wishy-
                        > > washy at best. He says
                        > > that stress is "very
                        > > uncomfortable... Yet
                        > > stress is a good teacher."
                        > >
                        > > Klemp goes on to say
                        > > that people can increase
                        > > their tolerance to stress
                        > > by eating healthy, getting
                        > > enough sleep, and by
                        > > "Reducing our overuse
                        > > of electronic devices."
                        > >
                        > > In other words it seems
                        > > Klemp is saying, in a
                        > > roundabout way, to use
                        > > moderation. After all,
                        > > he's saying to reduce
                        > > "overuse."
                        > >
                        > > Then, again, how does
                        > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                        > > not use their computer
                        > > 8 hours a day?
                        > >
                        > > The next question involves
                        > > reincarnation. This guy's
                        > > wife gave birth to a baby
                        > > boy and two days later his
                        > > mother translated (died).
                        > > He indirectly asked if this
                        > > new baby was his mother.
                        > >
                        > > Instead of giving this EKist
                        > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                        > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                        > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                        > > When it comes to rebirth,
                        > > anything at all can happen...
                        > > Whichever Soul is now your
                        > > son, everything is in accord
                        > > with what is best for all around."
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Tuza8, Welcome to the site! Thanks for the info on, yet, another religious scammer/fraud. I m assuming that your questions are rhetorical. I found some
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Tuza8,
                          Welcome to the site!
                          Thanks for the info
                          on, yet, another religious
                          scammer/fraud.

                          I'm assuming that your
                          questions are rhetorical.

                          I found some info on this
                          person and the following
                          video:

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I

                          Here's more info that that
                          I uncovered on Wikipedia:

                          [Note the info within the (*****)
                          It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                          Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]

                          Quan Yin Method

                          In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the 'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with which she is now associated.[10]


                          *****
                          Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]

                          Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best, easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                          *****


                          Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the

                          "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:

                          Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                          Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                          Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                          Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                          Refrain from the use of intoxicants.

                          [edit]Quan Yin Method in China

                          Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]

                          The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July 1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in 20 provinces and cities.[10]

                          In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies of "heretical texts."[10]

                          [edit]Criticism

                          [edit]Environmental violations
                          In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400 and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned to establish a park on the site.[33]

                          Yes, I read where she is
                          very popular in Taiwan
                          and that she has 20,000
                          followers world wide.

                          She's half Vietnamese
                          and Chinese and became
                          a disciple of Thakar Singh
                          and studied Surat Shabd
                          Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                          Light and Sound), but
                          was, later, initiated by
                          a Buddhist monk.

                          All those who follow
                          her are asked to become
                          Vegetarians and initiation
                          is free of charge. It doesn't
                          appear that there is a
                          Membership Donation/Fee
                          like with Ecklankar, but
                          she does make a lot of
                          money by selling books,
                          videos, etc. She also owns
                          Vegetarian and Vegan
                          Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                          has jewelry outlets, and
                          designs her own clothing
                          line.

                          Her name, Ching Hai,
                          means "pure ocean."

                          Google the "Quan Yin
                          Method" to find out
                          more about her daily
                          meditation of the inner
                          L & S.

                          She's been described as a:
                          "tireless publicity seeker;
                          The Immaterial Girl... Part
                          Buddha, Part Madonna;
                          The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                          ... merchandizing mystic
                          from Taiwan."

                          So, it seems that because
                          of her Buddhist connections
                          that she's associated with
                          the more familiar Buddhism,
                          however, she teaches the
                          less known (outside India)
                          Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                          ECKankar.

                          Funny, though, that her
                          religion/enterprise had
                          a later start than ECKankar
                          but is making more money
                          and bringing in more people.

                          Prometheus

                          "tuza8" wrote:

                          Hi prometheu,
                          I agree what you said,
                          they are some false master
                          in public.

                          recently one femala master,
                          her name is master ching hai,
                          master ching hai claim herself
                          is 8 billion plane initiation level,

                          do you believe it?

                          in 1985 she become master
                          and began taught mediatation
                          on light and sound, whom said
                          come from higher world into
                          this lower world ,

                          her also said come to this
                          lower world many times,
                          alway is a master for help
                          people.

                          do you believe?

                          prometheus_973" wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                          > > I'm not so sure that humans
                          > > will ever become like, God,
                          > > our imagined or possible
                          > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                          > > not in any lifetime soon.
                          > >
                          > > But, it could be that the
                          > > universe(s) just happened
                          > > and that the remnants of
                          > > other life forms were spread
                          > > to this planet, and others,
                          > > via space rubble... from
                          > > destroyed civilizations
                          > > and planets. Or, was it an
                          > > intentional seeding by an
                          > > advanced race... which was,
                          > > itself, seeded by another
                          > > advanced race etc.
                          > >
                          > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                          > > experiences we have
                          > > are the result of
                          > > interaction with the
                          > > quantum mechanical
                          > > field?
                          > >
                          > > Anyway, it seems to me
                          > > that what really matters
                          > > are relationships. It's our
                          > > relationships with others,
                          > > even strangers, that matter
                          > > most. This is how we really
                          > > learn and grow. Loving
                          > > relationships are valuable.
                          > >
                          > > Klemp, and others like
                          > > him, are: liars; posers;
                          > > have arrested development;
                          > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                          > > and are even psychopathic.
                          > > They are incapable of learning,
                          > > or caring about others (are
                          > > unloving) and attempt to
                          > > impede social progress and
                          > > justice. They use the rest of
                          > > us for their own personal
                          > > greed and selfish desires.
                          > >
                          > > Then, again, this strife and
                          > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                          > > created can make life interesting
                          > > and a challenge, although,
                          > > it can/will also be physically
                          > > and emotionally painful.
                          > >
                          > > But, having a regular life
                          > > without additional commitments
                          > > and involvements can also
                          > > offer rewarding experiences
                          > > and insights. We are never
                          > > all that alone. However, I'm
                          > > not sure how peace of any
                          > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                          > > will ever happen in a world
                          > > controlled by sociopaths.
                          > >
                          > > One must care about everyone
                          > > and have caring relationships
                          > > with people in order for humankind
                          > > to advance and survive. To me,
                          > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                          > > I almost included animals, too,
                          > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                          > > include "caring" about them (all)
                          > > too.
                          > >
                          > > How can one really "care" about
                          > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                          > > except to keep them away from
                          > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                          > > people.
                          > >
                          > > When one thinks about it the
                          > > definition of what's "normal"
                          > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                          > > seem to be more pathological
                          > > than the introverts don't you
                          > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                          > > to force us introverts to become
                          > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                          > > loves company I suppose or is
                          > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                          > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                          > > is more intimidating.
                          > >
                          > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                          > > to worship and viewed as being
                          > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                          > > from "us" being involved in our
                          > > lives because of the differences
                          > > we see in one another. This is
                          > > why there are so many different
                          > > religious dogmas of what's right
                          > > and wrong.
                          > >
                          > > Therefore, the differences in the
                          > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                          > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                          > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                          > > nor take responsibility for our own
                          > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                          > > use God as our scape goat.
                          > >
                          > > There are major flaws with all
                          > > of these religions and the so-called
                          > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                          > > all hearsay and the only thing
                          > > that, supposedly, gives them
                          > > validation is that these various
                          > > people in history/myth that the
                          > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                          > > to have said or done some nice,
                          > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                          > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                          > > time (being ancient) seems to
                          > > have given them credibility, because
                          > > it is believed and taught that
                          > > only Divine Intercession could
                          > > have been the source for their
                          > > Divine Inspiration.
                          > >
                          > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                          > > today, who are not even followers
                          > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                          > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                          > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                          > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                          > > of these major and minor religions.
                          > > Many of these people inspired
                          > > others by never giving up in time
                          > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                          > > there weren't many other choices.
                          > > Even those who did give up and
                          > > had bad things befall them, still,
                          > > maintained their faith and this
                          > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                          > > or saints. If this is the standard
                          > > for religions there are an awful
                          > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                          > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                          > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                          > > with unconditional love for the
                          > > master and you get a submissive
                          > > control pattern as your reward.
                          > > Buyer beware!
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                          > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                          > > an experiment to see if we
                          > > are all capable of evolving
                          > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                          > > Are we to become more than
                          > > merely a divine thought?
                          > > Maybe there is something
                          > > more to that piece of a mirror
                          > > analogy."
                          > >
                          > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                          > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                          > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                          > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                          > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                          > >
                          > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                          > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                          > >
                          > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                          > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                          > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                          > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                          > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                          > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                          > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                          > >
                          > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                          > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                          > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                          > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                          > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                          > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                          > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                          > >
                          > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                          > > that it would ever be necessary.
                          > >
                          > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                          > >
                          > > I AM
                          > >
                          > > prometheus wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hello Non and All,
                          > > > Thanks for the insightful
                          > > > summary. I was exploring
                          > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                          > > > charismatic Christian churches
                          > > > and saw a reference to a
                          > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                          > > >
                          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                          > > >
                          > > > This person is mentioned
                          > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                          > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                          > > > Faith.
                          > > >
                          > > > Even when God seems to
                          > > > turn his back and: causes
                          > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                          > > > lost; cities attacked and
                          > > > overrun by your enemies;
                          > > > people brutalized, tortured
                          > > > and killed, one is to have
                          > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                          > > > reward for keeping this
                          > > > faith. God's ego needs
                          > > > you to believe in him
                          > > > regardless of what pain
                          > > > he allows to befall you.
                          > > >
                          > > > One needs to project
                          > > > a sense of hope in order
                          > > > to better endure life, as
                          > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                          > > >
                          > > > And, it's easier to face these
                          > > > challenges when you believe
                          > > > that God is on your side and
                          > > > not that of your oppressor.
                          > > >
                          > > > However, does God really
                          > > > take sides? It seems that God
                          > > > is/was created in man's image.
                          > > >
                          > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                          > > > an experiment to see if we
                          > > > are all capable of evolving
                          > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                          > > > Are we to become more than
                          > > > merely a divine thought?
                          > > > Maybe there is something
                          > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                          > > > analogy.
                          > > >
                          > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                          > > > has the belief that you (and your
                          > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                          > > > deserved the punishments as
                          > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                          > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                          > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                          > > > most religions see everyday
                          > > > living and hardships as a test
                          > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                          > > > to donate money to support
                          > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                          > > > says and promises the same
                          > > > or similar things in the imagined
                          > > > hereafter.
                          > > >
                          > > > Plus, each religion has always
                          > > > blamed the non-believers for
                          > > > the sins that they suffer under
                          > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                          > > > and Klemp is more like these
                          > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                          > > > admit.
                          > > >
                          > > > Well, got to go now....
                          > > > I just had some thoughts
                          > > > to share.
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus
                          > > >
                          > > "Non" wrote:
                          > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                          > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                          > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                          > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                          > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                          > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                          > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                          > > answers to ask the master etc.
                          > > >
                          > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                          > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                          > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                          > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                          > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                          > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                          > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                          > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                          > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                          > > >
                          > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                          > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                          > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                          > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                          > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                          > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                          > > >
                          > > > Non ;)
                          > > >
                          > > > prometheus wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hello Janice,
                          > > > Yes, one would think that
                          > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                          > > > would, at least, attempt
                          > > > to live up to his PR, but
                          > > > that's not the case with
                          > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                          > > > out there by demonstrating
                          > > > his powers? It's not like
                          > > > he announced to the
                          > > > whole world that he was....
                          > > > oh wait, he did!
                          > > >
                          > > > That was a long time ago
                          > > > and he never did make
                          > > > any predictions as most
                          > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                          > > > made some predictions.
                          > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                          > > > haven't noticed and don't
                          > > > mine and that's why he
                          > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                          > > > to preform his responsibilities
                          > > > as a real prophet.
                          > > >
                          > > > Instead, Harold is very
                          > > > cautious of being too
                          > > > direct and understood.
                          > > > He'd rather have EKists
                          > > > fill-in the blanks and
                          > > > imagine what they want,
                          > > > need and expect until
                          > > > they go too far and have
                          > > > to have a behaviour
                          > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                          > > > That's why Klemp usually
                          > > > gives a very one dimensional
                          > > > perspective when he tells
                          > > > a story.
                          > > >
                          > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                          > > > why put too much
                          > > > effort into it! And, he
                          > > > figures that all he needs
                          > > > to do is the KISS thing
                          > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                          > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                          > > > will substitute Soul for
                          > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                          > > >
                          > > > It's really quite amazing
                          > > > how simple Klemp's
                          > > > redundant message is.
                          > > > If EKists would just compare
                          > > > Klemp's simple minded
                          > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                          > > > leaders one would have
                          > > > to wonder what they see
                          > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                          > > > but they just laugh at his
                          > > > quirkiness because he's
                          > > > operating on so many
                          > > > high planes of consciousness
                          > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                          > > >
                          > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                          > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                          > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                          > > > isn't even in the same ball
                          > > > park with the current Dali
                          > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                          > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                          > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                          > > > religion while Eckankar
                          > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                          > > > But, EKists need to compare
                          > > > the two leaders and how
                          > > > they present themselves
                          > > > and what they have to say.
                          > > >
                          > > > Will ECKists make the
                          > > > comparison? No, of course
                          > > > not! They won't even allow
                          > > > the door to be opened a
                          > > > crack because some light
                          > > > might get in and show
                          > > > them the Truth. They can't
                          > > > handle the Truth and
                          > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                          > > > It's much easier, besides,
                          > > > what would they replace
                          > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                          > > > responsibility to think for
                          > > > oneself and exercise free
                          > > > will. And, it would make
                          > > > life too lonely to lose all
                          > > > of those EK friends.
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                          > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                          > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                          > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                          > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                          > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                          > > > charlatan to me.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > The December 2012
                          > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                          > > > in the Ask the Master
                          > > > section are two interesting
                          > > > questions and answers.
                          > > >
                          > > > The first question has
                          > > > to do with Stress and
                          > > > how to overcome it.
                          > > >
                          > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                          > > > washy at best. He says
                          > > > that stress is "very
                          > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                          > > > stress is a good teacher."
                          > > >
                          > > > Klemp goes on to say
                          > > > that people can increase
                          > > > their tolerance to stress
                          > > > by eating healthy, getting
                          > > > enough sleep, and by
                          > > > "Reducing our overuse
                          > > > of electronic devices."
                          > > >
                          > > > In other words it seems
                          > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                          > > > roundabout way, to use
                          > > > moderation. After all,
                          > > > he's saying to reduce
                          > > > "overuse."
                          > > >
                          > > > Then, again, how does
                          > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                          > > > not use their computer
                          > > > 8 hours a day?
                          > > >
                          > > > The next question involves
                          > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                          > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                          > > > boy and two days later his
                          > > > mother translated (died).
                          > > > He indirectly asked if this
                          > > > new baby was his mother.
                          > > >
                          > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                          > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                          > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                          > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                          > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                          > > > anything at all can happen...
                          > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                          > > > son, everything is in accord
                          > > > with what is best for all around."
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          >
                        • iam999freedom
                          I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
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                            I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle. In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are naturally more happy.

                            If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

                            I AM.......HAPPY LOL

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                            >
                            > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                            >
                            > I AM
                            >
                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                            > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                            > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                            > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                            > >
                            > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > From: prometheus_973
                            > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                            > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >  
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                            > > I'm not so sure that humans
                            > > will ever become like, God,
                            > > our imagined or possible
                            > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                            > > not in any lifetime soon.
                            > >
                            > > But, it could be that the
                            > > universe(s) just happened
                            > > and that the remnants of
                            > > other life forms were spread
                            > > to this planet, and others,
                            > > via space rubble... from
                            > > destroyed civilizations
                            > > and planets. Or, was it an
                            > > intentional seeding by an
                            > > advanced race... which was,
                            > > itself, seeded by another
                            > > advanced race etc.
                            > >
                            > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                            > > experiences we have
                            > > are the result of
                            > > interaction with the
                            > > quantum mechanical
                            > > field?
                            > >
                            > > Anyway, it seems to me
                            > > that what really matters
                            > > are relationships. It's our
                            > > relationships with others,
                            > > even strangers, that matter
                            > > most. This is how we really
                            > > learn and grow. Loving
                            > > relationships are valuable.
                            > >
                            > > Klemp, and others like
                            > > him, are: liars; posers;
                            > > have arrested development;
                            > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                            > > and are even psychopathic.
                            > > They are incapable of learning,
                            > > or caring about others (are
                            > > unloving) and attempt to
                            > > impede social progress and
                            > > justice. They use the rest of
                            > > us for their own personal
                            > > greed and selfish desires.
                            > >
                            > > Then, again, this strife and
                            > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                            > > created can make life interesting
                            > > and a challenge, although,
                            > > it can/will also be physically
                            > > and emotionally painful.
                            > >
                            > > But, having a regular life
                            > > without additional commitments
                            > > and involvements can also
                            > > offer rewarding experiences
                            > > and insights. We are never
                            > > all that alone. However, I'm
                            > > not sure how peace of any
                            > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                            > > will ever happen in a world
                            > > controlled by sociopaths.
                            > >
                            > > One must care about everyone
                            > > and have caring relationships
                            > > with people in order for humankind
                            > > to advance and survive. To me,
                            > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                            > > I almost included animals, too,
                            > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                            > > include "caring" about them (all)
                            > > too.
                            > >
                            > > How can one really "care" about
                            > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                            > > except to keep them away from
                            > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                            > > people.
                            > >
                            > > When one thinks about it the
                            > > definition of what's "normal"
                            > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                            > > seem to be more pathological
                            > > than the introverts don't you
                            > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                            > > to force us introverts to become
                            > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                            > > loves company I suppose or is
                            > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                            > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                            > > is more intimidating.
                            > >
                            > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                            > > to worship and viewed as being
                            > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                            > > from "us" being involved in our
                            > > lives because of the differences
                            > > we see in one another. This is
                            > > why there are so many different
                            > > religious dogmas of what's right
                            > > and wrong.
                            > >
                            > > Therefore, the differences in the
                            > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                            > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                            > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                            > > nor take responsibility for our own
                            > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                            > > use God as our scape goat.
                            > >
                            > > There are major flaws with all
                            > > of these religions and the so-called
                            > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                            > > all hearsay and the only thing
                            > > that, supposedly, gives them
                            > > validation is that these various
                            > > people in history/myth that the
                            > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                            > > to have said or done some nice,
                            > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                            > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                            > > time (being ancient) seems to
                            > > have given them credibility, because
                            > > it is believed and taught that
                            > > only Divine Intercession could
                            > > have been the source for their
                            > > Divine Inspiration.
                            > >
                            > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                            > > today, who are not even followers
                            > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                            > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                            > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                            > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                            > > of these major and minor religions.
                            > > Many of these people inspired
                            > > others by never giving up in time
                            > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                            > > there weren't many other choices.
                            > > Even those who did give up and
                            > > had bad things befall them, still,
                            > > maintained their faith and this
                            > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                            > > or saints. If this is the standard
                            > > for religions there are an awful
                            > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                            > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                            > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                            > > with unconditional love for the
                            > > master and you get a submissive
                            > > control pattern as your reward.
                            > > Buyer beware!
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                            > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                            > > an experiment to see if we
                            > > are all capable of evolving
                            > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                            > > Are we to become more than
                            > > merely a divine thought?
                            > > Maybe there is something
                            > > more to that piece of a mirror
                            > > analogy."
                            > >
                            > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                            > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                            > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                            > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                            > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                            > >
                            > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                            > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                            > >
                            > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                            > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                            > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                            > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                            > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                            > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                            > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                            > >
                            > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                            > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                            > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                            > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                            > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                            > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                            > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                            > >
                            > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                            > > that it would ever be necessary.
                            > >
                            > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                            > >
                            > > I AM
                            > >
                            > > prometheus wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hello Non and All,
                            > > > Thanks for the insightful
                            > > > summary. I was exploring
                            > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                            > > > charismatic Christian churches
                            > > > and saw a reference to a
                            > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                            > > >
                            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                            > > >
                            > > > This person is mentioned
                            > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                            > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                            > > > Faith.
                            > > >
                            > > > Even when God seems to
                            > > > turn his back and: causes
                            > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                            > > > lost; cities attacked and
                            > > > overrun by your enemies;
                            > > > people brutalized, tortured
                            > > > and killed, one is to have
                            > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                            > > > reward for keeping this
                            > > > faith. God's ego needs
                            > > > you to believe in him
                            > > > regardless of what pain
                            > > > he allows to befall you.
                            > > >
                            > > > One needs to project
                            > > > a sense of hope in order
                            > > > to better endure life, as
                            > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                            > > >
                            > > > And, it's easier to face these
                            > > > challenges when you believe
                            > > > that God is on your side and
                            > > > not that of your oppressor.
                            > > >
                            > > > However, does God really
                            > > > take sides? It seems that God
                            > > > is/was created in man's image.
                            > > >
                            > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                            > > > an experiment to see if we
                            > > > are all capable of evolving
                            > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                            > > > Are we to become more than
                            > > > merely a divine thought?
                            > > > Maybe there is something
                            > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                            > > > analogy.
                            > > >
                            > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                            > > > has the belief that you (and your
                            > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                            > > > deserved the punishments as
                            > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                            > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                            > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                            > > > most religions see everyday
                            > > > living and hardships as a test
                            > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                            > > > to donate money to support
                            > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                            > > > says and promises the same
                            > > > or similar things in the imagined
                            > > > hereafter.
                            > > >
                            > > > Plus, each religion has always
                            > > > blamed the non-believers for
                            > > > the sins that they suffer under
                            > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                            > > > and Klemp is more like these
                            > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                            > > > admit.
                            > > >
                            > > > Well, got to go now....
                            > > > I just had some thoughts
                            > > > to share.
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus
                            > > >
                            > > "Non" wrote:
                            > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                            > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                            > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                            > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                            > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                            > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                            > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                            > > answers to ask the master etc.
                            > > >
                            > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                            > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                            > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                            > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                            > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                            > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                            > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                            > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                            > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                            > > >
                            > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                            > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                            > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                            > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                            > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                            > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                            > > >
                            > > > Non ;)
                            > > >
                            > > > prometheus wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hello Janice,
                            > > > Yes, one would think that
                            > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                            > > > would, at least, attempt
                            > > > to live up to his PR, but
                            > > > that's not the case with
                            > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                            > > > out there by demonstrating
                            > > > his powers? It's not like
                            > > > he announced to the
                            > > > whole world that he was....
                            > > > oh wait, he did!
                            > > >
                            > > > That was a long time ago
                            > > > and he never did make
                            > > > any predictions as most
                            > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                            > > > made some predictions.
                            > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                            > > > haven't noticed and don't
                            > > > mine and that's why he
                            > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                            > > > to preform his responsibilities
                            > > > as a real prophet.
                            > > >
                            > > > Instead, Harold is very
                            > > > cautious of being too
                            > > > direct and understood.
                            > > > He'd rather have EKists
                            > > > fill-in the blanks and
                            > > > imagine what they want,
                            > > > need and expect until
                            > > > they go too far and have
                            > > > to have a behaviour
                            > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                            > > > That's why Klemp usually
                            > > > gives a very one dimensional
                            > > > perspective when he tells
                            > > > a story.
                            > > >
                            > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                            > > > why put too much
                            > > > effort into it! And, he
                            > > > figures that all he needs
                            > > > to do is the KISS thing
                            > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                            > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                            > > > will substitute Soul for
                            > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                            > > >
                            > > > It's really quite amazing
                            > > > how simple Klemp's
                            > > > redundant message is.
                            > > > If EKists would just compare
                            > > > Klemp's simple minded
                            > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                            > > > leaders one would have
                            > > > to wonder what they see
                            > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                            > > > but they just laugh at his
                            > > > quirkiness because he's
                            > > > operating on so many
                            > > > high planes of consciousness
                            > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                            > > >
                            > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                            > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                            > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                            > > > isn't even in the same ball
                            > > > park with the current Dali
                            > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                            > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                            > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                            > > > religion while Eckankar
                            > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                            > > > But, EKists need to compare
                            > > > the two leaders and how
                            > > > they present themselves
                            > > > and what they have to say.
                            > > >
                            > > > Will ECKists make the
                            > > > comparison? No, of course
                            > > > not! They won't even allow
                            > > > the door to be opened a
                            > > > crack because some light
                            > > > might get in and show
                            > > > them the Truth. They can't
                            > > > handle the Truth and
                            > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                            > > > It's much easier, besides,
                            > > > what would they replace
                            > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                            > > > responsibility to think for
                            > > > oneself and exercise free
                            > > > will. And, it would make
                            > > > life too lonely to lose all
                            > > > of those EK friends.
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                            > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                            > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                            > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                            > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                            > > > charlatan to me.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > The December 2012
                            > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                            > > > in the Ask the Master
                            > > > section are two interesting
                            > > > questions and answers.
                            > > >
                            > > > The first question has
                            > > > to do with Stress and
                            > > > how to overcome it.
                            > > >
                            > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                            > > > washy at best. He says
                            > > > that stress is "very
                            > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                            > > > stress is a good teacher."
                            > > >
                            > > > Klemp goes on to say
                            > > > that people can increase
                            > > > their tolerance to stress
                            > > > by eating healthy, getting
                            > > > enough sleep, and by
                            > > > "Reducing our overuse
                            > > > of electronic devices."
                            > > >
                            > > > In other words it seems
                            > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                            > > > roundabout way, to use
                            > > > moderation. After all,
                            > > > he's saying to reduce
                            > > > "overuse."
                            > > >
                            > > > Then, again, how does
                            > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                            > > > not use their computer
                            > > > 8 hours a day?
                            > > >
                            > > > The next question involves
                            > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                            > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                            > > > boy and two days later his
                            > > > mother translated (died).
                            > > > He indirectly asked if this
                            > > > new baby was his mother.
                            > > >
                            > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                            > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                            > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                            > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                            > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                            > > > anything at all can happen...
                            > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                            > > > son, everything is in accord
                            > > > with what is best for all around."
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            >
                          • tuza8
                            Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said she is 8 trillion
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
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                              Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said
                              she is 8 trillion initiate right now ,I dont believe. ,because from 1986 untill now just 27 years ,how can her achieve such level?is it possible once achieve that level in a short time?27 year?you are a master,so ,you know the answer. is it possible?pls tell me.
                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Tuza8,
                              > Welcome to the site!
                              > Thanks for the info
                              > on, yet, another religious
                              > scammer/fraud.
                              >
                              > I'm assuming that your
                              > questions are rhetorical.
                              >
                              > I found some info on this
                              > person and the following
                              > video:
                              >
                              > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
                              >
                              > Here's more info that that
                              > I uncovered on Wikipedia:
                              >
                              > [Note the info within the (*****)
                              > It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                              > Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
                              >
                              > Quan Yin Method
                              >
                              > In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the 'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with which she is now associated.[10]
                              >
                              >
                              > *****
                              > Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
                              >
                              > Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best, easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                              > *****
                              >
                              >
                              > Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
                              >
                              > "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
                              >
                              > Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                              > Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                              > Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                              > Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                              > Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
                              >
                              > [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
                              >
                              > Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
                              >
                              > The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July 1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in 20 provinces and cities.[10]
                              >
                              > In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies of "heretical texts."[10]
                              >
                              > [edit]Criticism
                              >
                              > [edit]Environmental violations
                              > In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400 and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned to establish a park on the site.[33]
                              >
                              > Yes, I read where she is
                              > very popular in Taiwan
                              > and that she has 20,000
                              > followers world wide.
                              >
                              > She's half Vietnamese
                              > and Chinese and became
                              > a disciple of Thakar Singh
                              > and studied Surat Shabd
                              > Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                              > Light and Sound), but
                              > was, later, initiated by
                              > a Buddhist monk.
                              >
                              > All those who follow
                              > her are asked to become
                              > Vegetarians and initiation
                              > is free of charge. It doesn't
                              > appear that there is a
                              > Membership Donation/Fee
                              > like with Ecklankar, but
                              > she does make a lot of
                              > money by selling books,
                              > videos, etc. She also owns
                              > Vegetarian and Vegan
                              > Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                              > has jewelry outlets, and
                              > designs her own clothing
                              > line.
                              >
                              > Her name, Ching Hai,
                              > means "pure ocean."
                              >
                              > Google the "Quan Yin
                              > Method" to find out
                              > more about her daily
                              > meditation of the inner
                              > L & S.
                              >
                              > She's been described as a:
                              > "tireless publicity seeker;
                              > The Immaterial Girl... Part
                              > Buddha, Part Madonna;
                              > The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                              > ... merchandizing mystic
                              > from Taiwan."
                              >
                              > So, it seems that because
                              > of her Buddhist connections
                              > that she's associated with
                              > the more familiar Buddhism,
                              > however, she teaches the
                              > less known (outside India)
                              > Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                              > ECKankar.
                              >
                              > Funny, though, that her
                              > religion/enterprise had
                              > a later start than ECKankar
                              > but is making more money
                              > and bringing in more people.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              > "tuza8" wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi prometheu,
                              > I agree what you said,
                              > they are some false master
                              > in public.
                              >
                              > recently one femala master,
                              > her name is master ching hai,
                              > master ching hai claim herself
                              > is 8 billion plane initiation level,
                              >
                              > do you believe it?
                              >
                              > in 1985 she become master
                              > and began taught mediatation
                              > on light and sound, whom said
                              > come from higher world into
                              > this lower world ,
                              >
                              > her also said come to this
                              > lower world many times,
                              > alway is a master for help
                              > people.
                              >
                              > do you believe?
                              >
                              > prometheus_973" wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                              > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                              > > > will ever become like, God,
                              > > > our imagined or possible
                              > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                              > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                              > > >
                              > > > But, it could be that the
                              > > > universe(s) just happened
                              > > > and that the remnants of
                              > > > other life forms were spread
                              > > > to this planet, and others,
                              > > > via space rubble... from
                              > > > destroyed civilizations
                              > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                              > > > intentional seeding by an
                              > > > advanced race... which was,
                              > > > itself, seeded by another
                              > > > advanced race etc.
                              > > >
                              > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                              > > > experiences we have
                              > > > are the result of
                              > > > interaction with the
                              > > > quantum mechanical
                              > > > field?
                              > > >
                              > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                              > > > that what really matters
                              > > > are relationships. It's our
                              > > > relationships with others,
                              > > > even strangers, that matter
                              > > > most. This is how we really
                              > > > learn and grow. Loving
                              > > > relationships are valuable.
                              > > >
                              > > > Klemp, and others like
                              > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                              > > > have arrested development;
                              > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                              > > > and are even psychopathic.
                              > > > They are incapable of learning,
                              > > > or caring about others (are
                              > > > unloving) and attempt to
                              > > > impede social progress and
                              > > > justice. They use the rest of
                              > > > us for their own personal
                              > > > greed and selfish desires.
                              > > >
                              > > > Then, again, this strife and
                              > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                              > > > created can make life interesting
                              > > > and a challenge, although,
                              > > > it can/will also be physically
                              > > > and emotionally painful.
                              > > >
                              > > > But, having a regular life
                              > > > without additional commitments
                              > > > and involvements can also
                              > > > offer rewarding experiences
                              > > > and insights. We are never
                              > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                              > > > not sure how peace of any
                              > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                              > > > will ever happen in a world
                              > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                              > > >
                              > > > One must care about everyone
                              > > > and have caring relationships
                              > > > with people in order for humankind
                              > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                              > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                              > > > I almost included animals, too,
                              > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                              > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                              > > > too.
                              > > >
                              > > > How can one really "care" about
                              > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                              > > > except to keep them away from
                              > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                              > > > people.
                              > > >
                              > > > When one thinks about it the
                              > > > definition of what's "normal"
                              > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                              > > > seem to be more pathological
                              > > > than the introverts don't you
                              > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                              > > > to force us introverts to become
                              > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                              > > > loves company I suppose or is
                              > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                              > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                              > > > is more intimidating.
                              > > >
                              > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                              > > > to worship and viewed as being
                              > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                              > > > from "us" being involved in our
                              > > > lives because of the differences
                              > > > we see in one another. This is
                              > > > why there are so many different
                              > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                              > > > and wrong.
                              > > >
                              > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                              > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                              > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                              > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                              > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                              > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                              > > > use God as our scape goat.
                              > > >
                              > > > There are major flaws with all
                              > > > of these religions and the so-called
                              > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                              > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                              > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                              > > > validation is that these various
                              > > > people in history/myth that the
                              > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                              > > > to have said or done some nice,
                              > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                              > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                              > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                              > > > have given them credibility, because
                              > > > it is believed and taught that
                              > > > only Divine Intercession could
                              > > > have been the source for their
                              > > > Divine Inspiration.
                              > > >
                              > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                              > > > today, who are not even followers
                              > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                              > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                              > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                              > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                              > > > of these major and minor religions.
                              > > > Many of these people inspired
                              > > > others by never giving up in time
                              > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                              > > > there weren't many other choices.
                              > > > Even those who did give up and
                              > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                              > > > maintained their faith and this
                              > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                              > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                              > > > for religions there are an awful
                              > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                              > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                              > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                              > > > with unconditional love for the
                              > > > master and you get a submissive
                              > > > control pattern as your reward.
                              > > > Buyer beware!
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                              > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                              > > > an experiment to see if we
                              > > > are all capable of evolving
                              > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                              > > > Are we to become more than
                              > > > merely a divine thought?
                              > > > Maybe there is something
                              > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                              > > > analogy."
                              > > >
                              > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                              > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                              > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                              > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                              > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                              > > >
                              > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                              > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                              > > >
                              > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                              > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                              > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                              > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                              > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                              > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                              > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                              > > >
                              > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                              > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                              > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                              > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                              > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                              > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                              > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                              > > >
                              > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                              > > > that it would ever be necessary.
                              > > >
                              > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                              > > >
                              > > > I AM
                              > > >
                              > > > prometheus wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hello Non and All,
                              > > > > Thanks for the insightful
                              > > > > summary. I was exploring
                              > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                              > > > > charismatic Christian churches
                              > > > > and saw a reference to a
                              > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                              > > > >
                              > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                              > > > >
                              > > > > This person is mentioned
                              > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                              > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                              > > > > Faith.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Even when God seems to
                              > > > > turn his back and: causes
                              > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                              > > > > lost; cities attacked and
                              > > > > overrun by your enemies;
                              > > > > people brutalized, tortured
                              > > > > and killed, one is to have
                              > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                              > > > > reward for keeping this
                              > > > > faith. God's ego needs
                              > > > > you to believe in him
                              > > > > regardless of what pain
                              > > > > he allows to befall you.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > One needs to project
                              > > > > a sense of hope in order
                              > > > > to better endure life, as
                              > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > And, it's easier to face these
                              > > > > challenges when you believe
                              > > > > that God is on your side and
                              > > > > not that of your oppressor.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > However, does God really
                              > > > > take sides? It seems that God
                              > > > > is/was created in man's image.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                              > > > > an experiment to see if we
                              > > > > are all capable of evolving
                              > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                              > > > > Are we to become more than
                              > > > > merely a divine thought?
                              > > > > Maybe there is something
                              > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                              > > > > analogy.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                              > > > > has the belief that you (and your
                              > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                              > > > > deserved the punishments as
                              > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                              > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                              > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                              > > > > most religions see everyday
                              > > > > living and hardships as a test
                              > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                              > > > > to donate money to support
                              > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                              > > > > says and promises the same
                              > > > > or similar things in the imagined
                              > > > > hereafter.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Plus, each religion has always
                              > > > > blamed the non-believers for
                              > > > > the sins that they suffer under
                              > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                              > > > > and Klemp is more like these
                              > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                              > > > > admit.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Well, got to go now....
                              > > > > I just had some thoughts
                              > > > > to share.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Prometheus
                              > > > >
                              > > > "Non" wrote:
                              > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                              > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                              > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                              > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                              > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                              > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                              > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                              > > > answers to ask the master etc.
                              > > > >
                              > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                              > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                              > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                              > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                              > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                              > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                              > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                              > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                              > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                              > > > >
                              > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                              > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                              > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                              > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                              > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                              > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Non ;)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > prometheus wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hello Janice,
                              > > > > Yes, one would think that
                              > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                              > > > > would, at least, attempt
                              > > > > to live up to his PR, but
                              > > > > that's not the case with
                              > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                              > > > > out there by demonstrating
                              > > > > his powers? It's not like
                              > > > > he announced to the
                              > > > > whole world that he was....
                              > > > > oh wait, he did!
                              > > > >
                              > > > > That was a long time ago
                              > > > > and he never did make
                              > > > > any predictions as most
                              > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                              > > > > made some predictions.
                              > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                              > > > > haven't noticed and don't
                              > > > > mine and that's why he
                              > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                              > > > > to preform his responsibilities
                              > > > > as a real prophet.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Instead, Harold is very
                              > > > > cautious of being too
                              > > > > direct and understood.
                              > > > > He'd rather have EKists
                              > > > > fill-in the blanks and
                              > > > > imagine what they want,
                              > > > > need and expect until
                              > > > > they go too far and have
                              > > > > to have a behaviour
                              > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                              > > > > That's why Klemp usually
                              > > > > gives a very one dimensional
                              > > > > perspective when he tells
                              > > > > a story.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                              > > > > why put too much
                              > > > > effort into it! And, he
                              > > > > figures that all he needs
                              > > > > to do is the KISS thing
                              > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                              > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                              > > > > will substitute Soul for
                              > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                              > > > >
                              > > > > It's really quite amazing
                              > > > > how simple Klemp's
                              > > > > redundant message is.
                              > > > > If EKists would just compare
                              > > > > Klemp's simple minded
                              > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                              > > > > leaders one would have
                              > > > > to wonder what they see
                              > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                              > > > > but they just laugh at his
                              > > > > quirkiness because he's
                              > > > > operating on so many
                              > > > > high planes of consciousness
                              > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                              > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                              > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                              > > > > isn't even in the same ball
                              > > > > park with the current Dali
                              > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                              > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                              > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                              > > > > religion while Eckankar
                              > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                              > > > > But, EKists need to compare
                              > > > > the two leaders and how
                              > > > > they present themselves
                              > > > > and what they have to say.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Will ECKists make the
                              > > > > comparison? No, of course
                              > > > > not! They won't even allow
                              > > > > the door to be opened a
                              > > > > crack because some light
                              > > > > might get in and show
                              > > > > them the Truth. They can't
                              > > > > handle the Truth and
                              > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                              > > > > It's much easier, besides,
                              > > > > what would they replace
                              > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                              > > > > responsibility to think for
                              > > > > oneself and exercise free
                              > > > > will. And, it would make
                              > > > > life too lonely to lose all
                              > > > > of those EK friends.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Prometheus
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                              > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                              > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                              > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                              > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                              > > > > charlatan to me.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Prometheus wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The December 2012
                              > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                              > > > > in the Ask the Master
                              > > > > section are two interesting
                              > > > > questions and answers.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The first question has
                              > > > > to do with Stress and
                              > > > > how to overcome it.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                              > > > > washy at best. He says
                              > > > > that stress is "very
                              > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                              > > > > stress is a good teacher."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Klemp goes on to say
                              > > > > that people can increase
                              > > > > their tolerance to stress
                              > > > > by eating healthy, getting
                              > > > > enough sleep, and by
                              > > > > "Reducing our overuse
                              > > > > of electronic devices."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > In other words it seems
                              > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                              > > > > roundabout way, to use
                              > > > > moderation. After all,
                              > > > > he's saying to reduce
                              > > > > "overuse."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Then, again, how does
                              > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                              > > > > not use their computer
                              > > > > 8 hours a day?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The next question involves
                              > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                              > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                              > > > > boy and two days later his
                              > > > > mother translated (died).
                              > > > > He indirectly asked if this
                              > > > > new baby was his mother.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                              > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                              > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                              > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                              > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                              > > > > anything at all can happen...
                              > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                              > > > > son, everything is in accord
                              > > > > with what is best for all around."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Prometheus
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello I AM, Janice and All, I read something where a teacher asked a child what she wanted to be when she grew up and she said Happy! Of course, that was the
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                                Hello I AM, Janice and All,
                                I read something where a
                                teacher asked a child what
                                she wanted to be when she
                                grew up and she said "Happy!"

                                Of course, that was the wrong
                                answer. Happiness is not taught
                                in school. Yet, happiness is
                                the end result of that which
                                is sought by those who are
                                taught how to think and work
                                for a living.

                                Personally, I'd rather the
                                various states of happiness
                                including contentment.

                                And yet the EK teachings
                                are completely Mental
                                Plane via:

                                The Books, like the Shariyats;
                                CDs; DVDs; Internet Videos;
                                Seminar Talks; the RESA
                                Hierarchy; Guidelines; Zoas;
                                Satsang Society and ESC
                                Board business meetings;
                                Workshop and Seminar
                                planning etc., to name
                                just a few of the Mental
                                Plane activities and the
                                basis for Eckankar's
                                existence.

                                Let's not forget those Mystic
                                Worlds, H.I. Letters, IROs,
                                EWS discussions, Membership
                                Donations. These realities
                                are not seen by ECKists
                                because they are too willing
                                to accept the propaganda
                                than think for themselves
                                and question authority.

                                I read a quote by Frank Zappa
                                "The difference between a
                                religion and a cult is how
                                much property they own."
                                It was something like that.
                                Look at the Mormon Church!

                                Thus, IMO, Eckankar will
                                always remain a cult. LOL!

                                Prometheus

                                iam freedom wrote:
                                I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should
                                not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
                                In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy
                                entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are
                                naturally more happy.

                                If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something
                                like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists
                                are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance
                                their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to
                                solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

                                I AM.......HAPPY LOL

                                "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                >
                                > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                >
                                > I AM
                                >
                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see it
                                when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where people
                                there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were people
                                from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town came
                                together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does appear to
                                make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there is a kind
                                of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about. We
                                hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good. But when
                                people are hurt, there are always others
                                > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part of
                                what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.Â
                                After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they hide
                                from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to admit
                                that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle
                                like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge
                                to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths have a lot
                                of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to
                                see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your heart can break but
                                can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would rather know my heart will
                                hurt than not to feel anything for others at all. Strong loving hearts will
                                mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the
                                journey. Loving hearts can and will share the pain. Eckankar doesn't do
                                anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does that say about the lem and the
                                other leaders of
                                > > eckankar? I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can
                                even see. Bless all the loving eckist tonight.Â
                                > >
                                prometheus wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                > > will ever become like, God,
                                > > our imagined or possible
                                > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                > >
                                > > But, it could be that the
                                > > universe(s) just happened
                                > > and that the remnants of
                                > > other life forms were spread
                                > > to this planet, and others,
                                > > via space rubble... from
                                > > destroyed civilizations
                                > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                > > intentional seeding by an
                                > > advanced race... which was,
                                > > itself, seeded by another
                                > > advanced race etc.
                                > >
                                > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                > > experiences we have
                                > > are the result of
                                > > interaction with the
                                > > quantum mechanical
                                > > field?
                                > >
                                > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                > > that what really matters
                                > > are relationships. It's our
                                > > relationships with others,
                                > > even strangers, that matter
                                > > most. This is how we really
                                > > learn and grow. Loving
                                > > relationships are valuable.
                                > >
                                > > Klemp, and others like
                                > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                > > have arrested development;
                                > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                > > and are even psychopathic.
                                > > They are incapable of learning,
                                > > or caring about others (are
                                > > unloving) and attempt to
                                > > impede social progress and
                                > > justice. They use the rest of
                                > > us for their own personal
                                > > greed and selfish desires.
                                > >
                                > > Then, again, this strife and
                                > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                > > created can make life interesting
                                > > and a challenge, although,
                                > > it can/will also be physically
                                > > and emotionally painful.
                                > >
                                > > But, having a regular life
                                > > without additional commitments
                                > > and involvements can also
                                > > offer rewarding experiences
                                > > and insights. We are never
                                > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                > > not sure how peace of any
                                > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                > > will ever happen in a world
                                > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                > >
                                > > One must care about everyone
                                > > and have caring relationships
                                > > with people in order for humankind
                                > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                > > I almost included animals, too,
                                > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                > > too.
                                > >
                                > > How can one really "care" about
                                > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                > > except to keep them away from
                                > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                > > people.
                                > >
                                > > When one thinks about it the
                                > > definition of what's "normal"
                                > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                > > seem to be more pathological
                                > > than the introverts don't you
                                > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                > > to force us introverts to become
                                > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                > > loves company I suppose or is
                                > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                > > is more intimidating.
                                > >
                                > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                > > to worship and viewed as being
                                > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                > > from "us" being involved in our
                                > > lives because of the differences
                                > > we see in one another. This is
                                > > why there are so many different
                                > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                > > and wrong.
                                > >
                                > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                > > use God as our scape goat.
                                > >
                                > > There are major flaws with all
                                > > of these religions and the so-called
                                > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                > > validation is that these various
                                > > people in history/myth that the
                                > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                > > to have said or done some nice,
                                > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                > > have given them credibility, because
                                > > it is believed and taught that
                                > > only Divine Intercession could
                                > > have been the source for their
                                > > Divine Inspiration.
                                > >
                                > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                > > today, who are not even followers
                                > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                > > of these major and minor religions.
                                > > Many of these people inspired
                                > > others by never giving up in time
                                > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                > > there weren't many other choices.
                                > > Even those who did give up and
                                > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                > > maintained their faith and this
                                > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                > > for religions there are an awful
                                > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                > > with unconditional love for the
                                > > master and you get a submissive
                                > > control pattern as your reward.
                                > > Buyer beware!
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                > > an experiment to see if we
                                > > are all capable of evolving
                                > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                > > Are we to become more than
                                > > merely a divine thought?
                                > > Maybe there is something
                                > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                > > analogy."
                                > >
                                > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
                                misinterpreting
                                > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                > >
                                > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                > >
                                > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
                                event.
                                > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
                                person
                                > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
                                moving
                                > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
                                more
                                > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                > >
                                > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
                                expressions
                                > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                > >
                                > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                > >
                                > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                > >
                                > > I AM
                                > >
                                > > prometheus wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hello Non and All,
                                > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                > > > summary. I was exploring
                                > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                > > > and saw a reference to a
                                > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                > > >
                                > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                > > >
                                > > > This person is mentioned
                                > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                > > > Faith.
                                > > >
                                > > > Even when God seems to
                                > > > turn his back and: causes
                                > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                > > > and killed, one is to have
                                > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                > > > reward for keeping this
                                > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                > > > you to believe in him
                                > > > regardless of what pain
                                > > > he allows to befall you.
                                > > >
                                > > > One needs to project
                                > > > a sense of hope in order
                                > > > to better endure life, as
                                > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                > > >
                                > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                > > > challenges when you believe
                                > > > that God is on your side and
                                > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                > > >
                                > > > However, does God really
                                > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                > > >
                                > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                > > > an experiment to see if we
                                > > > are all capable of evolving
                                > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                > > > Are we to become more than
                                > > > merely a divine thought?
                                > > > Maybe there is something
                                > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                > > > analogy.
                                > > >
                                > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                > > > deserved the punishments as
                                > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                > > > most religions see everyday
                                > > > living and hardships as a test
                                > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                > > > to donate money to support
                                > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                > > > says and promises the same
                                > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                > > > hereafter.
                                > > >
                                > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                > > > admit.
                                > > >
                                > > > Well, got to go now....
                                > > > I just had some thoughts
                                > > > to share.
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                                > > >
                                > > "Non" wrote:
                                > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
                                anything
                                > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                > > >
                                > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
                                Dahlia
                                > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
                                religion,
                                > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
                                Struggle
                                > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                > > >
                                > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
                                benign
                                > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
                                actually
                                > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
                                out
                                > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                > > >
                                > > > Non ;)
                                > > >
                                > > > prometheus wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hello Janice,
                                > > > Yes, one would think that
                                > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                > > > would, at least, attempt
                                > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                > > > that's not the case with
                                > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                > > > out there by demonstrating
                                > > > his powers? It's not like
                                > > > he announced to the
                                > > > whole world that he was....
                                > > > oh wait, he did!
                                > > >
                                > > > That was a long time ago
                                > > > and he never did make
                                > > > any predictions as most
                                > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                > > > made some predictions.
                                > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                > > > mine and that's why he
                                > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                > > > as a real prophet.
                                > > >
                                > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                > > > cautious of being too
                                > > > direct and understood.
                                > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                > > > imagine what they want,
                                > > > need and expect until
                                > > > they go too far and have
                                > > > to have a behaviour
                                > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                > > > perspective when he tells
                                > > > a story.
                                > > >
                                > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                > > > why put too much
                                > > > effort into it! And, he
                                > > > figures that all he needs
                                > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                > > > will substitute Soul for
                                > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                > > >
                                > > > It's really quite amazing
                                > > > how simple Klemp's
                                > > > redundant message is.
                                > > > If EKists would just compare
                                > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                > > > leaders one would have
                                > > > to wonder what they see
                                > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                > > > but they just laugh at his
                                > > > quirkiness because he's
                                > > > operating on so many
                                > > > high planes of consciousness
                                > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                > > >
                                > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                > > > park with the current Dali
                                > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                > > > religion while Eckankar
                                > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                > > > the two leaders and how
                                > > > they present themselves
                                > > > and what they have to say.
                                > > >
                                > > > Will ECKists make the
                                > > > comparison? No, of course
                                > > > not! They won't even allow
                                > > > the door to be opened a
                                > > > crack because some light
                                > > > might get in and show
                                > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                > > > handle the Truth and
                                > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                > > > what would they replace
                                > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                > > > responsibility to think for
                                > > > oneself and exercise free
                                > > > will. And, it would make
                                > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                > > > of those EK friends.
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
                                that
                                > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
                                say
                                > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he
                                is
                                > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
                                ask
                                > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                > > > charlatan to me.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > The December 2012
                                > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                > > > in the Ask the Master
                                > > > section are two interesting
                                > > > questions and answers.
                                > > >
                                > > > The first question has
                                > > > to do with Stress and
                                > > > how to overcome it.
                                > > >
                                > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                > > > washy at best. He says
                                > > > that stress is "very
                                > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                > > >
                                > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                > > > that people can increase
                                > > > their tolerance to stress
                                > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                > > > enough sleep, and by
                                > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                > > > of electronic devices."
                                > > >
                                > > > In other words it seems
                                > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                > > > roundabout way, to use
                                > > > moderation. After all,
                                > > > he's saying to reduce
                                > > > "overuse."
                                > > >
                                > > > Then, again, how does
                                > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                > > > not use their computer
                                > > > 8 hours a day?
                                > > >
                                > > > The next question involves
                                > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                > > > boy and two days later his
                                > > > mother translated (died).
                                > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                > > > new baby was his mother.
                                > > >
                                > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                > > > anything at all can happen...
                                > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                > > > son, everything is in accord
                                > > > with what is best for all around."
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Tusa8, Let me try to address your questions and concerns. tuza8 wrote: Hi, prometheus and all, Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai, I
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                                  Hello Tusa8,
                                  Let me try to address
                                  your questions and
                                  concerns.

                                  "tuza8" wrote:
                                  "Hi, prometheus and all,

                                  Actually, I am former disciple
                                  of master ching hai,

                                  I dont think she is fake master,"

                                  ***
                                  ME: Yes, she is a FAKE!
                                  You are more of a Master
                                  than she is! Why? Because
                                  you have more integrity,
                                  more honesty, more
                                  detachment, and fewer
                                  desires than Ching Hai.

                                  A true Master cannot be
                                  a greedy Capitalist who
                                  uses excuses and a slight
                                  of hand (magic) to turn
                                  appearances into illusion.
                                  She is not humble nor is
                                  she enlightened, especially,
                                  in this Field of Action.
                                  ***

                                  "but regarding her level,
                                  she said she is 8 trillion
                                  initiate right now,"

                                  ***
                                  ME: A True Master does
                                  not brag about being a
                                  Master nor disclose that
                                  they are a Master nor
                                  do they disclose their
                                  "initiations."
                                  ***

                                  "I dont believe. ,
                                  because from 1986 untill
                                  now just 27 years,

                                  how can her achieve such
                                  level?

                                  is it possible once achieve
                                  that level in a short time?
                                  27 year?"

                                  ***
                                  ME: These outrageous claims
                                  by Ching Hai are simply more
                                  proof that she is a fraud. Those
                                  who would believe such lies
                                  have been tested and have
                                  Passed her brainwashing test.

                                  Many cult leaders, via increments,
                                  will test the waters. They will
                                  make a subtle, but illogical,
                                  or exaggerated claim or statement
                                  and see what happens. If it
                                  goes unnoticed/unquestioned
                                  or unchallenged and is accepted,
                                  then, more and more lies and
                                  outrageous claims and orders
                                  can be made or handed out
                                  until the only people left are
                                  those glassy-eyed brainwashed
                                  and loyal fanatics who have
                                  stopped thinking for themselves.
                                  ***

                                  "you are a master, so,
                                  you know the answer.

                                  is it possible?
                                  pls tell me."

                                  ***
                                  ME: I AM No Master.
                                  Even if you were to
                                  dream of me I would
                                  not be a Master. You
                                  are your own Master!
                                  Dream of yourself as
                                  a Master. This, in Truth,
                                  is your secret identity.

                                  Anyway, I've told you.

                                  If you have ears to hear
                                  you will hear and, I hope,
                                  will understand my words
                                  and advice.

                                  I'm not perfect... but
                                  neither is God. LOL!

                                  Prometheus



                                  prometheus wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Tuza8,
                                  > Welcome to the site!
                                  > Thanks for the info
                                  > on, yet, another religious
                                  > scammer/fraud.
                                  >
                                  > I'm assuming that your
                                  > questions are rhetorical.
                                  >
                                  > I found some info on this
                                  > person and the following
                                  > video:
                                  >
                                  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
                                  >
                                  > Here's more info that that
                                  > I uncovered on Wikipedia:
                                  >
                                  > [Note the info within the (*****)
                                  > It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                                  > Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
                                  >
                                  > Quan Yin Method
                                  >
                                  > In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the
                                  'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin
                                  Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat
                                  tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she
                                  severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with
                                  which she is now associated.[10]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > *****
                                  > Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know
                                  it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was
                                  first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way
                                  of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to
                                  the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha
                                  nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that
                                  those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
                                  >
                                  > Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is
                                  purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best,
                                  easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves
                                  meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that
                                  she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged
                                  repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                                  > *****
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for
                                  initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of
                                  beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products
                                  gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
                                  >
                                  > "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin
                                  Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five
                                  precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
                                  >
                                  > Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                                  > Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                                  > Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                                  > Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                                  > Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
                                  >
                                  > [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
                                  >
                                  > Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is
                                  commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread
                                  without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset
                                  of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a
                                  list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it
                                  included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
                                  >
                                  > The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were
                                  fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious
                                  organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At
                                  the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July
                                  1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in
                                  20 provinces and cities.[10]
                                  >
                                  > In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment
                                  Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover
                                  to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise
                                  allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and
                                  business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices
                                  and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to
                                  recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies
                                  of "heretical texts."[10]
                                  >
                                  > [edit]Criticism
                                  >
                                  > [edit]Environmental violations
                                  > In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in
                                  Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally
                                  constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the
                                  pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400
                                  and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The
                                  private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by
                                  police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned
                                  to establish a park on the site.[33]
                                  >
                                  > Yes, I read where she is
                                  > very popular in Taiwan
                                  > and that she has 20,000
                                  > followers world wide.
                                  >
                                  > She's half Vietnamese
                                  > and Chinese and became
                                  > a disciple of Thakar Singh
                                  > and studied Surat Shabd
                                  > Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                                  > Light and Sound), but
                                  > was, later, initiated by
                                  > a Buddhist monk.
                                  >
                                  > All those who follow
                                  > her are asked to become
                                  > Vegetarians and initiation
                                  > is free of charge. It doesn't
                                  > appear that there is a
                                  > Membership Donation/Fee
                                  > like with Ecklankar, but
                                  > she does make a lot of
                                  > money by selling books,
                                  > videos, etc. She also owns
                                  > Vegetarian and Vegan
                                  > Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                                  > has jewelry outlets, and
                                  > designs her own clothing
                                  > line.
                                  >
                                  > Her name, Ching Hai,
                                  > means "pure ocean."
                                  >
                                  > Google the "Quan Yin
                                  > Method" to find out
                                  > more about her daily
                                  > meditation of the inner
                                  > L & S.
                                  >
                                  > She's been described as a:
                                  > "tireless publicity seeker;
                                  > The Immaterial Girl... Part
                                  > Buddha, Part Madonna;
                                  > The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                                  > ... merchandizing mystic
                                  > from Taiwan."
                                  >
                                  > So, it seems that because
                                  > of her Buddhist connections
                                  > that she's associated with
                                  > the more familiar Buddhism,
                                  > however, she teaches the
                                  > less known (outside India)
                                  > Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                                  > ECKankar.
                                  >
                                  > Funny, though, that her
                                  > religion/enterprise had
                                  > a later start than ECKankar
                                  > but is making more money
                                  > and bringing in more people.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  > "tuza8" wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi prometheu,
                                  > I agree what you said,
                                  > they are some false master
                                  > in public.
                                  >
                                  > recently one femala master,
                                  > her name is master ching hai,
                                  > master ching hai claim herself
                                  > is 8 billion plane initiation level,
                                  >
                                  > do you believe it?
                                  >
                                  > in 1985 she become master
                                  > and began taught mediatation
                                  > on light and sound, whom said
                                  > come from higher world into
                                  > this lower world ,
                                  >
                                  > her also said come to this
                                  > lower world many times,
                                  > alway is a master for help
                                  > people.
                                  >
                                  > do you believe?
                                • Janice Pfeiffer
                                  Hi I am, It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven t learned much
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                                    Hi I am,
                                    It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 

                                    --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

                                    From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM

                                     
                                    Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

                                    Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

                                    I AM

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                    > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                    > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                                    > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                    >
                                    > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: prometheus_973
                                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                    > I'm not so sure that humans
                                    > will ever become like, God,
                                    > our imagined or possible
                                    > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                    > not in any lifetime soon.
                                    >
                                    > But, it could be that the
                                    > universe(s) just happened
                                    > and that the remnants of
                                    > other life forms were spread
                                    > to this planet, and others,
                                    > via space rubble... from
                                    > destroyed civilizations
                                    > and planets. Or, was it an
                                    > intentional seeding by an
                                    > advanced race... which was,
                                    > itself, seeded by another
                                    > advanced race etc.
                                    >
                                    > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                    > experiences we have
                                    > are the result of
                                    > interaction with the
                                    > quantum mechanical
                                    > field?
                                    >
                                    > Anyway, it seems to me
                                    > that what really matters
                                    > are relationships. It's our
                                    > relationships with others,
                                    > even strangers, that matter
                                    > most. This is how we really
                                    > learn and grow. Loving
                                    > relationships are valuable.
                                    >
                                    > Klemp, and others like
                                    > him, are: liars; posers;
                                    > have arrested development;
                                    > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                    > and are even psychopathic.
                                    > They are incapable of learning,
                                    > or caring about others (are
                                    > unloving) and attempt to
                                    > impede social progress and
                                    > justice. They use the rest of
                                    > us for their own personal
                                    > greed and selfish desires.
                                    >
                                    > Then, again, this strife and
                                    > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                    > created can make life interesting
                                    > and a challenge, although,
                                    > it can/will also be physically
                                    > and emotionally painful.
                                    >
                                    > But, having a regular life
                                    > without additional commitments
                                    > and involvements can also
                                    > offer rewarding experiences
                                    > and insights. We are never
                                    > all that alone. However, I'm
                                    > not sure how peace of any
                                    > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                    > will ever happen in a world
                                    > controlled by sociopaths.
                                    >
                                    > One must care about everyone
                                    > and have caring relationships
                                    > with people in order for humankind
                                    > to advance and survive. To me,
                                    > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                    > I almost included animals, too,
                                    > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                    > include "caring" about them (all)
                                    > too.
                                    >
                                    > How can one really "care" about
                                    > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                    > except to keep them away from
                                    > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                    > people.
                                    >
                                    > When one thinks about it the
                                    > definition of what's "normal"
                                    > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                    > seem to be more pathological
                                    > than the introverts don't you
                                    > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                    > to force us introverts to become
                                    > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                    > loves company I suppose or is
                                    > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                    > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                    > is more intimidating.
                                    >
                                    > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                    > to worship and viewed as being
                                    > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                    > from "us" being involved in our
                                    > lives because of the differences
                                    > we see in one another. This is
                                    > why there are so many different
                                    > religious dogmas of what's right
                                    > and wrong.
                                    >
                                    > Therefore, the differences in the
                                    > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                    > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                    > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                    > nor take responsibility for our own
                                    > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                    > use God as our scape goat.
                                    >
                                    > There are major flaws with all
                                    > of these religions and the so-called
                                    > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                    > all hearsay and the only thing
                                    > that, supposedly, gives them
                                    > validation is that these various
                                    > people in history/myth that the
                                    > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                    > to have said or done some nice,
                                    > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                    > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                    > time (being ancient) seems to
                                    > have given them credibility, because
                                    > it is believed and taught that
                                    > only Divine Intercession could
                                    > have been the source for their
                                    > Divine Inspiration.
                                    >
                                    > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                    > today, who are not even followers
                                    > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                    > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                    > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                    > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                    > of these major and minor religions.
                                    > Many of these people inspired
                                    > others by never giving up in time
                                    > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                    > there weren't many other choices.
                                    > Even those who did give up and
                                    > had bad things befall them, still,
                                    > maintained their faith and this
                                    > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                    > or saints. If this is the standard
                                    > for religions there are an awful
                                    > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                    > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                    > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                    > with unconditional love for the
                                    > master and you get a submissive
                                    > control pattern as your reward.
                                    > Buyer beware!
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                    > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                    > an experiment to see if we
                                    > are all capable of evolving
                                    > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                    > Are we to become more than
                                    > merely a divine thought?
                                    > Maybe there is something
                                    > more to that piece of a mirror
                                    > analogy."
                                    >
                                    > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                    > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                    > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                    > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                    > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                    >
                                    > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                    > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                    >
                                    > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                    > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                    > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                    > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                    > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                    > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                    > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                    >
                                    > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                    > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                    > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                    > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                    > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                    > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                    > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                    >
                                    > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                    > that it would ever be necessary.
                                    >
                                    > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                    >
                                    > I AM
                                    >
                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Non and All,
                                    > > Thanks for the insightful
                                    > > summary. I was exploring
                                    > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                    > > charismatic Christian churches
                                    > > and saw a reference to a
                                    > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                    > >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                    > >
                                    > > This person is mentioned
                                    > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                    > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                    > > Faith.
                                    > >
                                    > > Even when God seems to
                                    > > turn his back and: causes
                                    > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                    > > lost; cities attacked and
                                    > > overrun by your enemies;
                                    > > people brutalized, tortured
                                    > > and killed, one is to have
                                    > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                    > > reward for keeping this
                                    > > faith. God's ego needs
                                    > > you to believe in him
                                    > > regardless of what pain
                                    > > he allows to befall you.
                                    > >
                                    > > One needs to project
                                    > > a sense of hope in order
                                    > > to better endure life, as
                                    > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                    > >
                                    > > And, it's easier to face these
                                    > > challenges when you believe
                                    > > that God is on your side and
                                    > > not that of your oppressor.
                                    > >
                                    > > However, does God really
                                    > > take sides? It seems that God
                                    > > is/was created in man's image.
                                    > >
                                    > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                    > > an experiment to see if we
                                    > > are all capable of evolving
                                    > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                    > > Are we to become more than
                                    > > merely a divine thought?
                                    > > Maybe there is something
                                    > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                    > > analogy.
                                    > >
                                    > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                    > > has the belief that you (and your
                                    > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                    > > deserved the punishments as
                                    > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                    > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                    > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                    > > most religions see everyday
                                    > > living and hardships as a test
                                    > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                    > > to donate money to support
                                    > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                    > > says and promises the same
                                    > > or similar things in the imagined
                                    > > hereafter.
                                    > >
                                    > > Plus, each religion has always
                                    > > blamed the non-believers for
                                    > > the sins that they suffer under
                                    > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                    > > and Klemp is more like these
                                    > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                    > > admit.
                                    > >
                                    > > Well, got to go now....
                                    > > I just had some thoughts
                                    > > to share.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > "Non" wrote:
                                    > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                    > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                    > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                    > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                    > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                    > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                    > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                    > answers to ask the master etc.
                                    > >
                                    > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                    > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                    > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                    > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                    > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                    > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                    > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                    > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                    > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                    > >
                                    > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                    > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                    > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                    > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                    > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                    > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                    > >
                                    > > Non ;)
                                    > >
                                    > > prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Janice,
                                    > > Yes, one would think that
                                    > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                    > > would, at least, attempt
                                    > > to live up to his PR, but
                                    > > that's not the case with
                                    > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                    > > out there by demonstrating
                                    > > his powers? It's not like
                                    > > he announced to the
                                    > > whole world that he was....
                                    > > oh wait, he did!
                                    > >
                                    > > That was a long time ago
                                    > > and he never did make
                                    > > any predictions as most
                                    > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                    > > made some predictions.
                                    > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                    > > haven't noticed and don't
                                    > > mine and that's why he
                                    > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                    > > to preform his responsibilities
                                    > > as a real prophet.
                                    > >
                                    > > Instead, Harold is very
                                    > > cautious of being too
                                    > > direct and understood.
                                    > > He'd rather have EKists
                                    > > fill-in the blanks and
                                    > > imagine what they want,
                                    > > need and expect until
                                    > > they go too far and have
                                    > > to have a behaviour
                                    > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                    > > That's why Klemp usually
                                    > > gives a very one dimensional
                                    > > perspective when he tells
                                    > > a story.
                                    > >
                                    > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                    > > why put too much
                                    > > effort into it! And, he
                                    > > figures that all he needs
                                    > > to do is the KISS thing
                                    > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                    > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                    > > will substitute Soul for
                                    > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                    > >
                                    > > It's really quite amazing
                                    > > how simple Klemp's
                                    > > redundant message is.
                                    > > If EKists would just compare
                                    > > Klemp's simple minded
                                    > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                    > > leaders one would have
                                    > > to wonder what they see
                                    > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                    > > but they just laugh at his
                                    > > quirkiness because he's
                                    > > operating on so many
                                    > > high planes of consciousness
                                    > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                    > >
                                    > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                    > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                    > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                    > > isn't even in the same ball
                                    > > park with the current Dali
                                    > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                    > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                    > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                    > > religion while Eckankar
                                    > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                    > > But, EKists need to compare
                                    > > the two leaders and how
                                    > > they present themselves
                                    > > and what they have to say.
                                    > >
                                    > > Will ECKists make the
                                    > > comparison? No, of course
                                    > > not! They won't even allow
                                    > > the door to be opened a
                                    > > crack because some light
                                    > > might get in and show
                                    > > them the Truth. They can't
                                    > > handle the Truth and
                                    > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                    > > It's much easier, besides,
                                    > > what would they replace
                                    > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                    > > responsibility to think for
                                    > > oneself and exercise free
                                    > > will. And, it would make
                                    > > life too lonely to lose all
                                    > > of those EK friends.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                    > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                    > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                    > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                    > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                    > > charlatan to me.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > The December 2012
                                    > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                    > > in the Ask the Master
                                    > > section are two interesting
                                    > > questions and answers.
                                    > >
                                    > > The first question has
                                    > > to do with Stress and
                                    > > how to overcome it.
                                    > >
                                    > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                    > > washy at best. He says
                                    > > that stress is "very
                                    > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                    > > stress is a good teacher."
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp goes on to say
                                    > > that people can increase
                                    > > their tolerance to stress
                                    > > by eating healthy, getting
                                    > > enough sleep, and by
                                    > > "Reducing our overuse
                                    > > of electronic devices."
                                    > >
                                    > > In other words it seems
                                    > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                    > > roundabout way, to use
                                    > > moderation. After all,
                                    > > he's saying to reduce
                                    > > "overuse."
                                    > >
                                    > > Then, again, how does
                                    > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                    > > not use their computer
                                    > > 8 hours a day?
                                    > >
                                    > > The next question involves
                                    > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                    > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                    > > boy and two days later his
                                    > > mother translated (died).
                                    > > He indirectly asked if this
                                    > > new baby was his mother.
                                    > >
                                    > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                    > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                    > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                    > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                    > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                    > > anything at all can happen...
                                    > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                    > > son, everything is in accord
                                    > > with what is best for all around."
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    >

                                  • Non
                                    Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.

                                      Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.

                                      Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.

                                      Non ;)

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi I am,
                                      > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
                                      >
                                      > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: iam999freedom
                                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                      >
                                      > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                      >
                                      > I AM
                                      >
                                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
                                      > there are always others
                                      > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
                                      > busy hiding their
                                      > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
                                      > other leaders of
                                      > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                      > >
                                      > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > From: prometheus_973
                                      > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >  
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                      > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                      > > will ever become like, God,
                                      > > our imagined or possible
                                      > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                      > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                      > >
                                      > > But, it could be that the
                                      > > universe(s) just happened
                                      > > and that the remnants of
                                      > > other life forms were spread
                                      > > to this planet, and others,
                                      > > via space rubble... from
                                      > > destroyed civilizations
                                      > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                      > > intentional seeding by an
                                      > > advanced race... which was,
                                      > > itself, seeded by another
                                      > > advanced race etc.
                                      > >
                                      > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                      > > experiences we have
                                      > > are the result of
                                      > > interaction with the
                                      > > quantum mechanical
                                      > > field?
                                      > >
                                      > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                      > > that what really matters
                                      > > are relationships. It's our
                                      > > relationships with others,
                                      > > even strangers, that matter
                                      > > most. This is how we really
                                      > > learn and grow. Loving
                                      > > relationships are valuable.
                                      > >
                                      > > Klemp, and others like
                                      > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                      > > have arrested development;
                                      > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                      > > and are even psychopathic.
                                      > > They are incapable of learning,
                                      > > or caring about others (are
                                      > > unloving) and attempt to
                                      > > impede social progress and
                                      > > justice. They use the rest of
                                      > > us for their own personal
                                      > > greed and selfish desires.
                                      > >
                                      > > Then, again, this strife and
                                      > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                      > > created can make life interesting
                                      > > and a challenge, although,
                                      > > it can/will also be physically
                                      > > and emotionally painful.
                                      > >
                                      > > But, having a regular life
                                      > > without additional commitments
                                      > > and involvements can also
                                      > > offer rewarding experiences
                                      > > and insights. We are never
                                      > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                      > > not sure how peace of any
                                      > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                      > > will ever happen in a world
                                      > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                      > >
                                      > > One must care about everyone
                                      > > and have caring relationships
                                      > > with people in order for humankind
                                      > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                      > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                      > > I almost included animals, too,
                                      > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                      > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                      > > too.
                                      > >
                                      > > How can one really "care" about
                                      > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                      > > except to keep them away from
                                      > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                      > > people.
                                      > >
                                      > > When one thinks about it the
                                      > > definition of what's "normal"
                                      > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                      > > seem to be more pathological
                                      > > than the introverts don't you
                                      > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                      > > to force us introverts to become
                                      > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                      > > loves company I suppose or is
                                      > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                      > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                      > > is more intimidating.
                                      > >
                                      > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                      > > to worship and viewed as being
                                      > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                      > > from "us" being involved in our
                                      > > lives because of the differences
                                      > > we see in one another. This is
                                      > > why there are so many different
                                      > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                      > > and wrong.
                                      > >
                                      > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                      > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                      > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                      > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                      > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                      > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                      > > use God as our scape goat.
                                      > >
                                      > > There are major flaws with all
                                      > > of these religions and the so-called
                                      > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                      > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                      > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                      > > validation is that these various
                                      > > people in history/myth that the
                                      > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                      > > to have said or done some nice,
                                      > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                      > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                      > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                      > > have given them credibility, because
                                      > > it is believed and taught that
                                      > > only Divine Intercession could
                                      > > have been the source for their
                                      > > Divine Inspiration.
                                      > >
                                      > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                      > > today, who are not even followers
                                      > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                      > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                      > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                      > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                      > > of these major and minor religions.
                                      > > Many of these people inspired
                                      > > others by never giving up in time
                                      > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                      > > there weren't many other choices.
                                      > > Even those who did give up and
                                      > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                      > > maintained their faith and this
                                      > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                      > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                      > > for religions there are an awful
                                      > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                      > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                      > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                      > > with unconditional love for the
                                      > > master and you get a submissive
                                      > > control pattern as your reward.
                                      > > Buyer beware!
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                      > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                      > > an experiment to see if we
                                      > > are all capable of evolving
                                      > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                      > > Are we to become more than
                                      > > merely a divine thought?
                                      > > Maybe there is something
                                      > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                      > > analogy."
                                      > >
                                      > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                      > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                      > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                      > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                      > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                      > >
                                      > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                      > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                      > >
                                      > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                      > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                      > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                      > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                      > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                      > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                      > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                      > >
                                      > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                      > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                      > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                      > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                      > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                      > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                      > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                      > >
                                      > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                      > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                      > >
                                      > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                      > >
                                      > > I AM
                                      > >
                                      > > prometheus wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hello Non and All,
                                      > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                      > > > summary. I was exploring
                                      > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                      > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                      > > > and saw a reference to a
                                      > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                      > > >
                                      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                      > > >
                                      > > > This person is mentioned
                                      > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                      > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                      > > > Faith.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Even when God seems to
                                      > > > turn his back and: causes
                                      > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                      > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                      > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                      > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                      > > > and killed, one is to have
                                      > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                      > > > reward for keeping this
                                      > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                      > > > you to believe in him
                                      > > > regardless of what pain
                                      > > > he allows to befall you.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > One needs to project
                                      > > > a sense of hope in order
                                      > > > to better endure life, as
                                      > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                      > > > challenges when you believe
                                      > > > that God is on your side and
                                      > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > However, does God really
                                      > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                      > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                      > > > an experiment to see if we
                                      > > > are all capable of evolving
                                      > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                      > > > Are we to become more than
                                      > > > merely a divine thought?
                                      > > > Maybe there is something
                                      > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                      > > > analogy.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                      > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                      > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                      > > > deserved the punishments as
                                      > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                      > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                      > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                      > > > most religions see everyday
                                      > > > living and hardships as a test
                                      > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                      > > > to donate money to support
                                      > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                      > > > says and promises the same
                                      > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                      > > > hereafter.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                      > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                      > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                      > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                      > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                      > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                      > > > admit.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Well, got to go now....
                                      > > > I just had some thoughts
                                      > > > to share.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prometheus
                                      > > >
                                      > > "Non" wrote:
                                      > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                      > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                      > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                      > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                      > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                      > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                      > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                      > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                      > > >
                                      > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                      > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                      > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                      > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                      > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                      > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                      > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                      > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                      > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                      > > >
                                      > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                      > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                      > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                      > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                      > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                      > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Non ;)
                                      > > >
                                      > > > prometheus wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hello Janice,
                                      > > > Yes, one would think that
                                      > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                      > > > would, at least, attempt
                                      > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                      > > > that's not the case with
                                      > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                      > > > out there by demonstrating
                                      > > > his powers? It's not like
                                      > > > he announced to the
                                      > > > whole world that he was....
                                      > > > oh wait, he did!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > That was a long time ago
                                      > > > and he never did make
                                      > > > any predictions as most
                                      > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                      > > > made some predictions.
                                      > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                      > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                      > > > mine and that's why he
                                      > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                      > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                      > > > as a real prophet.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                      > > > cautious of being too
                                      > > > direct and understood.
                                      > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                      > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                      > > > imagine what they want,
                                      > > > need and expect until
                                      > > > they go too far and have
                                      > > > to have a behaviour
                                      > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                      > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                      > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                      > > > perspective when he tells
                                      > > > a story.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                      > > > why put too much
                                      > > > effort into it! And, he
                                      > > > figures that all he needs
                                      > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                      > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                      > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                      > > > will substitute Soul for
                                      > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > It's really quite amazing
                                      > > > how simple Klemp's
                                      > > > redundant message is.
                                      > > > If EKists would just compare
                                      > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                      > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                      > > > leaders one would have
                                      > > > to wonder what they see
                                      > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                      > > > but they just laugh at his
                                      > > > quirkiness because he's
                                      > > > operating on so many
                                      > > > high planes of consciousness
                                      > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                      > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                      > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                      > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                      > > > park with the current Dali
                                      > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                      > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                      > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                      > > > religion while Eckankar
                                      > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                      > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                      > > > the two leaders and how
                                      > > > they present themselves
                                      > > > and what they have to say.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Will ECKists make the
                                      > > > comparison? No, of course
                                      > > > not! They won't even allow
                                      > > > the door to be opened a
                                      > > > crack because some light
                                      > > > might get in and show
                                      > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                      > > > handle the Truth and
                                      > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                      > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                      > > > what would they replace
                                      > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                      > > > responsibility to think for
                                      > > > oneself and exercise free
                                      > > > will. And, it would make
                                      > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                      > > > of those EK friends.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prometheus
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                      > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                      > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                      > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                      > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                      > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                      > > > charlatan to me.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The December 2012
                                      > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                      > > > in the Ask the Master
                                      > > > section are two interesting
                                      > > > questions and answers.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The first question has
                                      > > > to do with Stress and
                                      > > > how to overcome it.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                      > > > washy at best. He says
                                      > > > that stress is "very
                                      > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                      > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                      > > > that people can increase
                                      > > > their tolerance to stress
                                      > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                      > > > enough sleep, and by
                                      > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                      > > > of electronic devices."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > In other words it seems
                                      > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                      > > > roundabout way, to use
                                      > > > moderation. After all,
                                      > > > he's saying to reduce
                                      > > > "overuse."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Then, again, how does
                                      > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                      > > > not use their computer
                                      > > > 8 hours a day?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The next question involves
                                      > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                      > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                      > > > boy and two days later his
                                      > > > mother translated (died).
                                      > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                      > > > new baby was his mother.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                      > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                      > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                      > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                      > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                      > > > anything at all can happen...
                                      > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                      > > > son, everything is in accord
                                      > > > with what is best for all around."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • etznab18
                                      However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It states that the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                        "However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It states that "the spiritual workers created man and placed
                                        within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul."

                                        ***

                                        Then the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul; and man became like the living gods of the spirit worlds with intellectual powers, physical strength, and Soul. ... ." - S.K.S., Book One, p. 44

                                        Compare with:

                                        "The Seventh Command: And when this was done, the Seventh Intellect said: 'Let us make man after our own fashion and let us endow him with powers to rule this earth.' Then the Seven-Headed Intellect, The Creator of All Things throughout the Universe, created man and placed within his body a living, imperishable spirit, and man became like the Creator in intellectual power."

                                        http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ssm/ssm07.htm

                                        and (this is the older version)

                                        "Then Narayana, the Seven-headed Intellect, the Creator of all things throughout the universe, created man, and placed within his body a living, imperishable spirit, and man became like Narayana in intellectual power. Then was creation complete."

                                        http://campbellmgold.com/archive_esoteric/lost_continent_mu_churchward_1931.pdf

                                        Judging by the number of other similarities between writings of Twitchell and Churchward (concerning creation and Lemuria, etc.) I wonder if that quote by Twitchell was not entirely original. In fact, I believe Churchward's first book (Lost Continent of Mu) was part of the recommended reading list mentioned in LTG.

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello I Am,
                                        > Okay, let me give it
                                        > a shot and use some
                                        > excerpts etc.
                                        >
                                        > HK's talking about
                                        > psychological studies
                                        > using identical twins
                                        > (not conjoined) that
                                        > were separated soon
                                        > after birth. They grew
                                        > up elsewhere and had
                                        > different influences
                                        > but dressed the same
                                        > and had the same type
                                        > of dog and gave the
                                        > dog the same name etc.,
                                        > etc.
                                        >
                                        > Thus, it seems that
                                        > Free Will relies upon
                                        > genetics (nature) more
                                        > than it does upon nurture,
                                        > although, HK says that
                                        > Yogi Berra stated that
                                        > "in theory, practice doesn't
                                        > matter; in practice, it does."
                                        >
                                        > BTW- According to Klemp
                                        > "The Lords of Karma have
                                        > selected a body with the
                                        > appropriate genes for each
                                        > student."
                                        >
                                        > However, HK has somewhat
                                        > contradicted what is in CH.
                                        > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                                        > that "the spiritual workers
                                        > created man and placed
                                        > within him a living imperishable
                                        > Spirit, called Soul."
                                        >
                                        > There is no other mention
                                        > of these "spiritual workers."
                                        >
                                        > Anywho-
                                        >
                                        > HK is so clever the way
                                        > he'll twist a quote to add
                                        > even more confusion to
                                        > his message of absolute
                                        > servitude and obedience.
                                        >
                                        > I counted HK using "But"
                                        > four times. In an old H.I.
                                        > Letter he said never to
                                        > use "But" with one another
                                        > and that it was a nail in
                                        > the coffin of invention and
                                        > took away from what was
                                        > previously said.
                                        >
                                        > HK:
                                        > "BUT they dug in their heels
                                        > at the finding that such twins'
                                        > IQs were nearly as similar as
                                        > their heights."
                                        >
                                        > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                                        > set. A kind owner may let it out
                                        > into the room on occasion. BUT
                                        > it is still in a house."
                                        >
                                        > "Researchers, too, can advance
                                        > only to a fixed point in their studies
                                        > of what elements make up a whole
                                        > individual. BUT they do not have
                                        > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                                        > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                                        >
                                        > Funny that Klemp states that he
                                        > holds "a magical key" to control
                                        > others like a Black Magician would.
                                        >
                                        > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                                        > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                                        > must have the right kind and amount
                                        > of daily experiences."
                                        >
                                        > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                                        > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                                        > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                                        > the "right kind and amount of daily
                                        > experiences."
                                        >
                                        > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                                        > doesn't like science and psychologists
                                        > since getting locked up in an asylum
                                        > and having to "play-the-game" to
                                        > be released early.
                                        >
                                        > HK states that "Real free will rests
                                        > entirely on trusting the Master's
                                        > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                                        > many choices to make in all things
                                        > human and divine."
                                        >
                                        > In other words do as I say not
                                        > as I do and there is no such
                                        > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                                        > Does that kind sound like Cult
                                        > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                                        > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                                        > that "He gives suggestions" and
                                        > "seldom does he issue directives...
                                        > True Free Will of an individual
                                        > stands upon the Mahanta's
                                        > guidance."
                                        >
                                        > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                                        > as he speaks from experience:
                                        > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                                        > ingrained ideas about patterns
                                        > against them. A subject thinks
                                        > he has the quick mind and eyes
                                        > to catch a Magician in an act,
                                        > even while he is being unburdened
                                        > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                                        > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                                        > played upon people by illusion."
                                        >
                                        > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                                        > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                                        > exercises," but write those snail-
                                        > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                                        > thinking and so I can use those
                                        > stories for my next book.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > iam999freedom wrote:
                                        > Hi Prometheus,
                                        >
                                        > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                                        > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                                        > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                                        >
                                        > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                                        > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                                        > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                                        > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                                        > different character than the other."
                                        >
                                        > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                                        > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next morning
                                        > on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                                        >
                                        > I still have yet to receive a response.
                                        >
                                        > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic Note
                                        > that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                                        >
                                        > Thanks,
                                        > I AM
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > prometheus_wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > The December 2012
                                        > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                        > > in the Ask the Master
                                        > > section are two interesting
                                        > > questions and answers.
                                        > >
                                        > > The first question has
                                        > > to do with Stress and
                                        > > how to overcome it.
                                        > >
                                        > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                        > > washy at best. He says
                                        > > that stress is "very
                                        > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                        > > stress is a good teacher."
                                        > >
                                        > > Klemp goes on to say
                                        > > that people increase
                                        > > their tolerance to stress
                                        > > by eating healthy, getting
                                        > > enough sleep, and by
                                        > > "Reducing our overuse
                                        > > of electronic devices."
                                        > >
                                        > > In other words it seems
                                        > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                        > > roundabout way, to use
                                        > > moderation. After all,
                                        > > he's saying to reduce
                                        > > "overuse."
                                        > >
                                        > > Then, again, how does
                                        > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                        > > not use their computer
                                        > > 8 hours a day?
                                        > >
                                        > > The next question involves
                                        > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                        > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                        > > boy and two days later his
                                        > > mother translated (died).
                                        > > He indirectly asked if this
                                        > > new baby was his mother.
                                        > >
                                        > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                        > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                        > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                        > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                        > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                        > > anything at all can happen...
                                        > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                        > > son, everything is in accord
                                        > > with what is best for all around."
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        >
                                      • etznab18
                                        Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                          Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a number of things. Another study suggested that "even one's political leanings are largely shaped by genes (not by 'free will,' or choice.)"

                                          OK? Got the picture now? Combine that with the first paragraph of Harold's article and with the other paragraphs that mentioned free will, illusion and influence of genes.

                                          My impression from the article was that genes were considered to have great influence upon people's behaviors, even moreso than upbringing, or life's experiences.

                                          Now, I've seen studies where twins grow up in different environments where one gets cancer and the other doesn't. Also, I think there is a lot of "dark space" about the physiology of genes (just like there is a lot of "dark space" in the universe ... the majority, some think.) Genes, IMO, don't matter so much as whether the genes are "turned on" or not. There are lots and lots of genes (or DNA) that remain inactive I think, what they call junk DNA, and my guess is that life experiences and upbringing DO have an effect on shaping individual character. Even with identical twins.

                                          The idea that genes have such a great influence on behavior is just relative to any number of other things, IMO.

                                          I had to wonder, was Harold speaking about Eugenics? or something similar?

                                          Consider the following:

                                          Doubts on genetic mutation triggered by inheritance

                                          "The first major challenge to conventional eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was made in 1915 by Thomas Hunt Morgan, who demonstrated the event of genetic mutation occurring outside of inheritance involving the discovery of the hatching of a fruit fly with white eyes from a family and ancestry of the red-eyed Drosophila melanogaster species of fruit fly.[36] Morgan claimed that this demonstrated that major genetic changes occurred outside of inheritance and that the concept of eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was, to some extent, not completely scientifically accurate.[36]

                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Doubts_on_genetic_mutation_triggered_by_inheritance

                                          "A gene is a molecular unit of heredity of a living organism. It is a name given to some stretches of DNA and RNA that code for a polypeptide or for an RNA chain that has a function in the organism. [... .]"

                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes#Changing_concept

                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello I AM and All,
                                          > Actually Klemp did cite some
                                          > studies and I Googled it myself
                                          > and saw that there is proof that
                                          > identical twins share similarities.
                                          > The mirrored behaviors could
                                          > be genetical with brain frequencies
                                          > and brain function being the
                                          > same due to a quantum mechanical
                                          > influence. I threw that last one
                                          > in on my own, but who knows?
                                          >
                                          > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
                                          > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
                                          > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
                                          > use the Lords of Karma ruse
                                          > which, BTW, is not solely owned
                                          > by Eckankar.
                                          >
                                          > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
                                          > to get new members by promising
                                          > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
                                          > Liberation" but then he switches
                                          > it up and demands (suggests)
                                          > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
                                          > Team participation in order to,
                                          > possibly, get promoted and receive
                                          > "Spiritual Rewards."
                                          >
                                          > It is funny that Klemp claims to
                                          > take "Free Will" away from Souls
                                          > who join Eckankar and follow him.
                                          > Does this mean that those Souls
                                          > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
                                          > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > iam999freedom wrote:
                                          > Hi Prometheus,
                                          > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
                                          > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
                                          > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
                                          > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
                                          > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
                                          > the environment.
                                          >
                                          > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
                                          > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
                                          > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
                                          >
                                          > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
                                          > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
                                          > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
                                          >
                                          > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
                                          > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
                                          > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
                                          > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
                                          >
                                          > I AM
                                          >
                                          > prometheus_973" wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello I Am,
                                          > > Okay, let me give it
                                          > > a shot and use some
                                          > > excerpts etc.
                                          > >
                                          > > HK's talking about
                                          > > psychological studies
                                          > > using identical twins
                                          > > (not conjoined) that
                                          > > were separated soon
                                          > > after birth. They grew
                                          > > up elsewhere and had
                                          > > different influences
                                          > > but dressed the same
                                          > > and had the same type
                                          > > of dog and gave the
                                          > > dog the same name etc.,
                                          > > etc.
                                          > >
                                          > > Thus, it seems that
                                          > > Free Will relies upon
                                          > > genetics (nature) more
                                          > > than it does upon nurture,
                                          > > although, HK says that
                                          > > Yogi Berra stated that
                                          > > "in theory, practice doesn't
                                          > > matter; in practice, it does."
                                          > >
                                          > > BTW- According to Klemp
                                          > > "The Lords of Karma have
                                          > > selected a body with the
                                          > > appropriate genes for each
                                          > > student."
                                          > >
                                          > > However, HK has somewhat
                                          > > contradicted what is in CH.
                                          > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                                          > > that "the spiritual workers
                                          > > created man and placed
                                          > > within him a living imperishable
                                          > > Spirit, called Soul."
                                          > >
                                          > > There is no other mention
                                          > > of these "spiritual workers."
                                          > >
                                          > > Anywho-
                                          > >
                                          > > HK is so clever the way
                                          > > he'll twist a quote to add
                                          > > even more confusion to
                                          > > his message of absolute
                                          > > servitude and obedience.
                                          > >
                                          > > I counted HK using "But"
                                          > > four times. In an old H.I.
                                          > > Letter he said never to
                                          > > use "But" with one another
                                          > > and that it was a nail in
                                          > > the coffin of invention and
                                          > > took away from what was
                                          > > previously said.
                                          > >
                                          > > HK:
                                          > > "BUT they dug in their heels
                                          > > at the finding that such twins'
                                          > > IQs were nearly as similar as
                                          > > their heights."
                                          > >
                                          > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                                          > > set. A kind owner may let it out
                                          > > into the room on occasion. BUT
                                          > > it is still in a house."
                                          > >
                                          > > "Researchers, too, can advance
                                          > > only to a fixed point in their studies
                                          > > of what elements make up a whole
                                          > > individual. BUT they do not have
                                          > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                                          > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                                          > >
                                          > > Funny that Klemp states that he
                                          > > holds "a magical key" to control
                                          > > others like a Black Magician would.
                                          > >
                                          > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                                          > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                                          > > must have the right kind and amount
                                          > > of daily experiences."
                                          > >
                                          > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                                          > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                                          > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                                          > > the "right kind and amount of daily
                                          > > experiences."
                                          > >
                                          > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                                          > > doesn't like science and psychologists
                                          > > since getting locked up in an asylum
                                          > > and having to "play-the-game" to
                                          > > be released early.
                                          > >
                                          > > HK states that "Real free will rests
                                          > > entirely on trusting the Master's
                                          > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                                          > > many choices to make in all things
                                          > > human and divine."
                                          > >
                                          > > In other words do as I say not
                                          > > as I do and there is no such
                                          > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                                          > > Does that kind sound like Cult
                                          > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                                          > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                                          > > that "He gives suggestions" and
                                          > > "seldom does he issue directives...
                                          > > True Free Will of an individual
                                          > > stands upon the Mahanta's
                                          > > guidance."
                                          > >
                                          > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                                          > > as he speaks from experience:
                                          > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                                          > > ingrained ideas about patterns
                                          > > against them. A subject thinks
                                          > > he has the quick mind and eyes
                                          > > to catch a Magician in an act,
                                          > > even while he is being unburdened
                                          > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                                          > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                                          > > played upon people by illusion."
                                          > >
                                          > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                                          > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                                          > > exercises," but write those snail-
                                          > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                                          > > thinking and so I can use those
                                          > > stories for my next book.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > iam999freedom wrote:
                                          > > Hi Prometheus,
                                          > >
                                          > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                                          > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                                          > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                                          > >
                                          > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                                          > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                                          > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                                          > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                                          > > different character than the other."
                                          > >
                                          > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                                          > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
                                          > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                                          > >
                                          > > I still have yet to receive a response.
                                          > >
                                          > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
                                          > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                                          > >
                                          > > Thanks,
                                          > > I AM
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > prometheus_wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The December 2012
                                          > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                          > > > in the Ask the Master
                                          > > > section are two interesting
                                          > > > questions and answers.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The first question has
                                          > > > to do with Stress and
                                          > > > how to overcome it.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                          > > > washy at best. He says
                                          > > > that stress is "very
                                          > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                          > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                          > > > that people increase
                                          > > > their tolerance to stress
                                          > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                          > > > enough sleep, and by
                                          > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                          > > > of electronic devices."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In other words it seems
                                          > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                          > > > roundabout way, to use
                                          > > > moderation. After all,
                                          > > > he's saying to reduce
                                          > > > "overuse."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Then, again, how does
                                          > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                          > > > not use their computer
                                          > > > 8 hours a day?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The next question involves
                                          > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                          > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                          > > > boy and two days later his
                                          > > > mother translated (died).
                                          > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                          > > > new baby was his mother.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                          > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                          > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                          > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                          > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                          > > > anything at all can happen...
                                          > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                          > > > son, everything is in accord
                                          > > > with what is best for all around."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Non
                                          Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 12, 2013
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                                            Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated as far as religion may be growing. :)

                                            Non ;)

                                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.
                                            >
                                            > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.
                                            >
                                            > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                            >
                                            > Non ;)
                                            >
                                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hi I am,
                                            > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
                                            > >
                                            > > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > From: iam999freedom
                                            > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                            > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >  
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                            > >
                                            > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                            > >
                                            > > I AM
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
                                            > > there are always others
                                            > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
                                            > > busy hiding their
                                            > > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
                                            > > other leaders of
                                            > > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > From: prometheus_973
                                            > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                            > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >  
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                            > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                            > > > will ever become like, God,
                                            > > > our imagined or possible
                                            > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                            > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > But, it could be that the
                                            > > > universe(s) just happened
                                            > > > and that the remnants of
                                            > > > other life forms were spread
                                            > > > to this planet, and others,
                                            > > > via space rubble... from
                                            > > > destroyed civilizations
                                            > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                            > > > intentional seeding by an
                                            > > > advanced race... which was,
                                            > > > itself, seeded by another
                                            > > > advanced race etc.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                            > > > experiences we have
                                            > > > are the result of
                                            > > > interaction with the
                                            > > > quantum mechanical
                                            > > > field?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                            > > > that what really matters
                                            > > > are relationships. It's our
                                            > > > relationships with others,
                                            > > > even strangers, that matter
                                            > > > most. This is how we really
                                            > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                            > > > relationships are valuable.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Klemp, and others like
                                            > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                            > > > have arrested development;
                                            > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                            > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                            > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                            > > > or caring about others (are
                                            > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                            > > > impede social progress and
                                            > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                            > > > us for their own personal
                                            > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                            > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                            > > > created can make life interesting
                                            > > > and a challenge, although,
                                            > > > it can/will also be physically
                                            > > > and emotionally painful.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > But, having a regular life
                                            > > > without additional commitments
                                            > > > and involvements can also
                                            > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                            > > > and insights. We are never
                                            > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                            > > > not sure how peace of any
                                            > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                            > > > will ever happen in a world
                                            > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > One must care about everyone
                                            > > > and have caring relationships
                                            > > > with people in order for humankind
                                            > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                            > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                            > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                            > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                            > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                            > > > too.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > How can one really "care" about
                                            > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                            > > > except to keep them away from
                                            > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                            > > > people.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > When one thinks about it the
                                            > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                            > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                            > > > seem to be more pathological
                                            > > > than the introverts don't you
                                            > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                            > > > to force us introverts to become
                                            > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                            > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                            > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                            > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                            > > > is more intimidating.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                            > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                            > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                            > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                            > > > lives because of the differences
                                            > > > we see in one another. This is
                                            > > > why there are so many different
                                            > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                            > > > and wrong.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                            > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                            > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                            > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                            > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                            > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                            > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > There are major flaws with all
                                            > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                            > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                            > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                            > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                            > > > validation is that these various
                                            > > > people in history/myth that the
                                            > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                            > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                            > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                            > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                            > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                            > > > have given them credibility, because
                                            > > > it is believed and taught that
                                            > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                            > > > have been the source for their
                                            > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                            > > > today, who are not even followers
                                            > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                            > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                            > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                            > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                            > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                            > > > Many of these people inspired
                                            > > > others by never giving up in time
                                            > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                            > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                            > > > Even those who did give up and
                                            > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                            > > > maintained their faith and this
                                            > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                            > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                            > > > for religions there are an awful
                                            > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                            > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Prometheus
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                            > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                            > > > with unconditional love for the
                                            > > > master and you get a submissive
                                            > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                            > > > Buyer beware!
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                            > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                            > > > an experiment to see if we
                                            > > > are all capable of evolving
                                            > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                            > > > Are we to become more than
                                            > > > merely a divine thought?
                                            > > > Maybe there is something
                                            > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                            > > > analogy."
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                            > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                            > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                            > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                            > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                            > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                            > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                            > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                            > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                            > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                            > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                            > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                            > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                            > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                            > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                            > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                            > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                            > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                            > > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I AM
                                            > > >
                                            > > > prometheus wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hello Non and All,
                                            > > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                            > > > > summary. I was exploring
                                            > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                            > > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                            > > > > and saw a reference to a
                                            > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > This person is mentioned
                                            > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                            > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                            > > > > Faith.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Even when God seems to
                                            > > > > turn his back and: causes
                                            > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                            > > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                            > > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                            > > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                            > > > > and killed, one is to have
                                            > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                            > > > > reward for keeping this
                                            > > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                            > > > > you to believe in him
                                            > > > > regardless of what pain
                                            > > > > he allows to befall you.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > One needs to project
                                            > > > > a sense of hope in order
                                            > > > > to better endure life, as
                                            > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                            > > > > challenges when you believe
                                            > > > > that God is on your side and
                                            > > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > However, does God really
                                            > > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                            > > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                            > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                            > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                            > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                            > > > > Are we to become more than
                                            > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                            > > > > Maybe there is something
                                            > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                            > > > > analogy.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                            > > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                            > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                            > > > > deserved the punishments as
                                            > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                            > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                            > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                            > > > > most religions see everyday
                                            > > > > living and hardships as a test
                                            > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                            > > > > to donate money to support
                                            > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                            > > > > says and promises the same
                                            > > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                            > > > > hereafter.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                            > > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                            > > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                            > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                            > > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                            > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                            > > > > admit.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Well, got to go now....
                                            > > > > I just had some thoughts
                                            > > > > to share.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Prometheus
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > "Non" wrote:
                                            > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                            > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                            > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                            > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                            > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                            > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                            > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                            > > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                            > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                            > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                            > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                            > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                            > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                            > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                            > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                            > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                            > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                            > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                            > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                            > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                            > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Non ;)
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > prometheus wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hello Janice,
                                            > > > > Yes, one would think that
                                            > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                            > > > > would, at least, attempt
                                            > > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                            > > > > that's not the case with
                                            > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                            > > > > out there by demonstrating
                                            > > > > his powers? It's not like
                                            > > > > he announced to the
                                            > > > > whole world that he was....
                                            > > > > oh wait, he did!
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > That was a long time ago
                                            > > > > and he never did make
                                            > > > > any predictions as most
                                            > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                            > > > > made some predictions.
                                            > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                            > > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                            > > > > mine and that's why he
                                            > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                            > > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                            > > > > as a real prophet.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                            > > > > cautious of being too
                                            > > > > direct and understood.
                                            > > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                            > > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                            > > > > imagine what they want,
                                            > > > > need and expect until
                                            > > > > they go too far and have
                                            > > > > to have a behaviour
                                            > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                            > > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                            > > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                            > > > > perspective when he tells
                                            > > > > a story.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                            > > > > why put too much
                                            > > > > effort into it! And, he
                                            > > > > figures that all he needs
                                            > > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                            > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                            > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                            > > > > will substitute Soul for
                                            > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > It's really quite amazing
                                            > > > > how simple Klemp's
                                            > > > > redundant message is.
                                            > > > > If EKists would just compare
                                            > > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                            > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                            > > > > leaders one would have
                                            > > > > to wonder what they see
                                            > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                            > > > > but they just laugh at his
                                            > > > > quirkiness because he's
                                            > > > > operating on so many
                                            > > > > high planes of consciousness
                                            > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                            > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                            > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                            > > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                            > > > > park with the current Dali
                                            > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                            > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                            > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                            > > > > religion while Eckankar
                                            > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                            > > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                            > > > > the two leaders and how
                                            > > > > they present themselves
                                            > > > > and what they have to say.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Will ECKists make the
                                            > > > > comparison? No, of course
                                            > > > > not! They won't even allow
                                            > > > > the door to be opened a
                                            > > > > crack because some light
                                            > > > > might get in and show
                                            > > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                            > > > > handle the Truth and
                                            > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                            > > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                            > > > > what would they replace
                                            > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                            > > > > responsibility to think for
                                            > > > > oneself and exercise free
                                            > > > > will. And, it would make
                                            > > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                            > > > > of those EK friends.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Prometheus
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                            > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                            > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                            > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                            > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                            > > > > charlatan to me.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > The December 2012
                                            > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                            > > > > in the Ask the Master
                                            > > > > section are two interesting
                                            > > > > questions and answers.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > The first question has
                                            > > > > to do with Stress and
                                            > > > > how to overcome it.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                            > > > > washy at best. He says
                                            > > > > that stress is "very
                                            > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                            > > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                            > > > > that people can increase
                                            > > > > their tolerance to stress
                                            > > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                            > > > > enough sleep, and by
                                            > > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                            > > > > of electronic devices."
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > In other words it seems
                                            > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                            > > > > roundabout way, to use
                                            > > > > moderation. After all,
                                            > > > > he's saying to reduce
                                            > > > > "overuse."
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Then, again, how does
                                            > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                            > > > > not use their computer
                                            > > > > 8 hours a day?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > The next question involves
                                            > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                            > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                            > > > > boy and two days later his
                                            > > > > mother translated (died).
                                            > > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                            > > > > new baby was his mother.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                            > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                            > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                            > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                            > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                            > > > > anything at all can happen...
                                            > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                            > > > > son, everything is in accord
                                            > > > > with what is best for all around."
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Prometheus
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • prometheus_973
                                            Hello Non and All, Actually, having good interactive relationships with other people isn t necessarily about making new friends nor having the same religious,
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
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                                              Hello Non and All,
                                              Actually, having good
                                              interactive relationships
                                              with other people isn't
                                              necessarily about making
                                              new friends nor having
                                              the same religious, political,
                                              and lifestyle beliefs.
                                              Trying to get others
                                              to follow or accept our
                                              beliefs isn't the goal.

                                              It's more about being
                                              "friendly" to/with/for
                                              others and, thus, to
                                              ourselves. Usually, being
                                              friendly and promoting
                                              "friendship" (versus making
                                              friends) isn't that hard
                                              to accomplish. And, if
                                              it is, we need to make
                                              more of an effort and
                                              figure out what it is that's
                                              making this difficult.

                                              Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                              some small talk, and recognizing
                                              the other person by looking
                                              directly at them goes a
                                              long way.

                                              We can have a friendship
                                              (i.e. relationship) with a
                                              clerk whose full name we
                                              might not ever know. It's
                                              fun to simply, and naturally,
                                              smile and be friendly to
                                              strangers and acquaintances
                                              without expecting anything
                                              else. It takes the pressure
                                              off everyone when we keep
                                              it light. This lightness of
                                              Being will help to improve
                                              our lives and that of others.

                                              It's true that we will never
                                              be able to be friendly with
                                              some people. And, we won't
                                              always be friends with those
                                              people we know now. Some
                                              people don't deserve our
                                              efforts and will never deserve
                                              it. They are enemies to what
                                              we believe in.

                                              And, not all relationships
                                              work out nor need to be
                                              continued for the sake of
                                              all those involved. Sometimes
                                              people just have to let go
                                              and move on even with
                                              family members. But, these
                                              are usually relationships
                                              that have become complicated
                                              via various factors and are
                                              usually more one-sided
                                              due to a lack of communication,
                                              closed mindedness and
                                              hurt feelings.

                                              Our positive relationships
                                              with nature, to animals,
                                              and to other people are
                                              connections that make our
                                              lives worth living.


                                              Prometheus





                                              "Non" wrote:
                                              Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                              to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                              done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                              friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                              challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                              as far as religion may be growing. :)

                                              Non ;)

                                              "Non" wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                              teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                              lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                              possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                              inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                              act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                              In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                              otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                              even a twisted moral imperative.
                                              >
                                              > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                              direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                              point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                              like a small intervention.
                                              >
                                              > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                              situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                              and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                              outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                              at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                              and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                              heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                              >
                                              > Non ;)
                                              >
                                              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                              > >
                                              Hi I am,
                                              It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                              we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                              So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                              possible and let them go on their way.
                                              Thanks for your comments.
                                              > >
                                              I AM wrote:
                                              > >
                                              Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                              regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                              meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                              > >
                                              > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                              sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                              point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                              > >
                                              > > I AM
                                              > >
                                              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                              it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                              there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                              talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                              happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                              something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                              people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                              people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                              came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                              appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                              is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                              about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                              good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                              > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                              doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                              still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                              willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                              motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                              of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                              everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                              by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                              strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                              broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                              takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                              the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                              After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                              > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                              hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                              admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                              sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                              knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                              have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                              even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                              heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                              rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                              Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                              others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                              pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                              that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                              use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                              tonight.
                                              > > >

                                              prometheus wrote:
                                              > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                              > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                              > > > will ever become like, God,
                                              > > > our imagined or possible
                                              > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                              > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > But, it could be that the
                                              > > > universe(s) just happened
                                              > > > and that the remnants of
                                              > > > other life forms were spread
                                              > > > to this planet, and others,
                                              > > > via space rubble... from
                                              > > > destroyed civilizations
                                              > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                              > > > intentional seeding by an
                                              > > > advanced race... which was,
                                              > > > itself, seeded by another
                                              > > > advanced race etc.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                              > > > experiences we have
                                              > > > are the result of
                                              > > > interaction with the
                                              > > > quantum mechanical
                                              > > > field?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                              > > > that what really matters
                                              > > > are relationships. It's our
                                              > > > relationships with others,
                                              > > > even strangers, that matter
                                              > > > most. This is how we really
                                              > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                              > > > relationships are valuable.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Klemp, and others like
                                              > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                              > > > have arrested development;
                                              > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                              > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                              > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                              > > > or caring about others (are
                                              > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                              > > > impede social progress and
                                              > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                              > > > us for their own personal
                                              > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                              > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                              > > > created can make life interesting
                                              > > > and a challenge, although,
                                              > > > it can/will also be physically
                                              > > > and emotionally painful.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > But, having a regular life
                                              > > > without additional commitments
                                              > > > and involvements can also
                                              > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                              > > > and insights. We are never
                                              > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                              > > > not sure how peace of any
                                              > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                              > > > will ever happen in a world
                                              > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > One must care about everyone
                                              > > > and have caring relationships
                                              > > > with people in order for humankind
                                              > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                              > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                              > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                              > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                              > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                              > > > too.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > How can one really "care" about
                                              > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                              > > > except to keep them away from
                                              > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                              > > > people.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > When one thinks about it the
                                              > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                              > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                              > > > seem to be more pathological
                                              > > > than the introverts don't you
                                              > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                              > > > to force us introverts to become
                                              > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                              > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                              > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                              > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                              > > > is more intimidating.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                              > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                              > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                              > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                              > > > lives because of the differences
                                              > > > we see in one another. This is
                                              > > > why there are so many different
                                              > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                              > > > and wrong.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                              > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                              > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                              > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                              > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                              > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                              > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > There are major flaws with all
                                              > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                              > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                              > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                              > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                              > > > validation is that these various
                                              > > > people in history/myth that the
                                              > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                              > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                              > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                              > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                              > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                              > > > have given them credibility, because
                                              > > > it is believed and taught that
                                              > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                              > > > have been the source for their
                                              > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                              > > > today, who are not even followers
                                              > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                              > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                              > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                              > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                              > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                              > > > Many of these people inspired
                                              > > > others by never giving up in time
                                              > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                              > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                              > > > Even those who did give up and
                                              > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                              > > > maintained their faith and this
                                              > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                              > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                              > > > for religions there are an awful
                                              > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                              > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Prometheus
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                              > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                              > > > with unconditional love for the
                                              > > > master and you get a submissive
                                              > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                              > > > Buyer beware!
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                              > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                              > > > an experiment to see if we
                                              > > > are all capable of evolving
                                              > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                              > > > Are we to become more than
                                              > > > merely a divine thought?
                                              > > > Maybe there is something
                                              > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                              > > > analogy."
                                            • Non
                                              Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
                                                probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
                                                other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
                                                doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.

                                                Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
                                                a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
                                                Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
                                                strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
                                                (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
                                                highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
                                                your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.

                                                Non ;)

                                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hello Non and All,
                                                > Actually, having good
                                                > interactive relationships
                                                > with other people isn't
                                                > necessarily about making
                                                > new friends nor having
                                                > the same religious, political,
                                                > and lifestyle beliefs.
                                                > Trying to get others
                                                > to follow or accept our
                                                > beliefs isn't the goal.
                                                >
                                                > It's more about being
                                                > "friendly" to/with/for
                                                > others and, thus, to
                                                > ourselves. Usually, being
                                                > friendly and promoting
                                                > "friendship" (versus making
                                                > friends) isn't that hard
                                                > to accomplish. And, if
                                                > it is, we need to make
                                                > more of an effort and
                                                > figure out what it is that's
                                                > making this difficult.
                                                >
                                                > Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                                > some small talk, and recognizing
                                                > the other person by looking
                                                > directly at them goes a
                                                > long way.
                                                >
                                                > We can have a friendship
                                                > (i.e. relationship) with a
                                                > clerk whose full name we
                                                > might not ever know. It's
                                                > fun to simply, and naturally,
                                                > smile and be friendly to
                                                > strangers and acquaintances
                                                > without expecting anything
                                                > else. It takes the pressure
                                                > off everyone when we keep
                                                > it light. This lightness of
                                                > Being will help to improve
                                                > our lives and that of others.
                                                >
                                                > It's true that we will never
                                                > be able to be friendly with
                                                > some people. And, we won't
                                                > always be friends with those
                                                > people we know now. Some
                                                > people don't deserve our
                                                > efforts and will never deserve
                                                > it. They are enemies to what
                                                > we believe in.
                                                >
                                                > And, not all relationships
                                                > work out nor need to be
                                                > continued for the sake of
                                                > all those involved. Sometimes
                                                > people just have to let go
                                                > and move on even with
                                                > family members. But, these
                                                > are usually relationships
                                                > that have become complicated
                                                > via various factors and are
                                                > usually more one-sided
                                                > due to a lack of communication,
                                                > closed mindedness and
                                                > hurt feelings.
                                                >
                                                > Our positive relationships
                                                > with nature, to animals,
                                                > and to other people are
                                                > connections that make our
                                                > lives worth living.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Prometheus
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > "Non" wrote:
                                                > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                                > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                                > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                                > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                                > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                                > as far as religion may be growing. :)
                                                >
                                                > Non ;)
                                                >
                                                > "Non" wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                                > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                                > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                                > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                                > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                                > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                                > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                                > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                                > even a twisted moral imperative.
                                                > >
                                                > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                                > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                                > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                                > like a small intervention.
                                                > >
                                                > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                                > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                                > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                                > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                                > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                                > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                                > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                                > >
                                                > > Non ;)
                                                > >
                                                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > Hi I am,
                                                > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                                > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                                > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                                > possible and let them go on their way.
                                                > Thanks for your comments.
                                                > > >
                                                > I AM wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                                > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                                > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                                > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                                > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I AM
                                                > > >
                                                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                                > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                                > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                                > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                                > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                                > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                                > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                                > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                                > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                                > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                                > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                                > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                                > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                                > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                                > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                                > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                                > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                                > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                                > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                                > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                                > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                                > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                                > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                                > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                                > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                                > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                                > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                                > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                                > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                                > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                                > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                                > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                                > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                                > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                                > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                                > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                                > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                                > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                                > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                                > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                                > tonight.
                                                > > > >
                                                >
                                                > prometheus wrote:
                                                > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                > > > > will ever become like, God,
                                                > > > > our imagined or possible
                                                > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > But, it could be that the
                                                > > > > universe(s) just happened
                                                > > > > and that the remnants of
                                                > > > > other life forms were spread
                                                > > > > to this planet, and others,
                                                > > > > via space rubble... from
                                                > > > > destroyed civilizations
                                                > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                > > > > intentional seeding by an
                                                > > > > advanced race... which was,
                                                > > > > itself, seeded by another
                                                > > > > advanced race etc.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                > > > > experiences we have
                                                > > > > are the result of
                                                > > > > interaction with the
                                                > > > > quantum mechanical
                                                > > > > field?
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                > > > > that what really matters
                                                > > > > are relationships. It's our
                                                > > > > relationships with others,
                                                > > > > even strangers, that matter
                                                > > > > most. This is how we really
                                                > > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                                > > > > relationships are valuable.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Klemp, and others like
                                                > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                > > > > have arrested development;
                                                > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                > > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                                > > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                                > > > > or caring about others (are
                                                > > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                                > > > > impede social progress and
                                                > > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                                > > > > us for their own personal
                                                > > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                                > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                > > > > created can make life interesting
                                                > > > > and a challenge, although,
                                                > > > > it can/will also be physically
                                                > > > > and emotionally painful.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > But, having a regular life
                                                > > > > without additional commitments
                                                > > > > and involvements can also
                                                > > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                                > > > > and insights. We are never
                                                > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                > > > > not sure how peace of any
                                                > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                > > > > will ever happen in a world
                                                > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > One must care about everyone
                                                > > > > and have caring relationships
                                                > > > > with people in order for humankind
                                                > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                > > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                                > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                > > > > too.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > How can one really "care" about
                                                > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                > > > > except to keep them away from
                                                > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                > > > > people.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > When one thinks about it the
                                                > > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                                > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                > > > > seem to be more pathological
                                                > > > > than the introverts don't you
                                                > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                > > > > to force us introverts to become
                                                > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                > > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                                > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                > > > > is more intimidating.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                > > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                                > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                > > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                                > > > > lives because of the differences
                                                > > > > we see in one another. This is
                                                > > > > why there are so many different
                                                > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                > > > > and wrong.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                > > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > There are major flaws with all
                                                > > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                                > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                > > > > validation is that these various
                                                > > > > people in history/myth that the
                                                > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                > > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                                > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                > > > > have given them credibility, because
                                                > > > > it is believed and taught that
                                                > > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                                > > > > have been the source for their
                                                > > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                > > > > today, who are not even followers
                                                > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                > > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                                > > > > Many of these people inspired
                                                > > > > others by never giving up in time
                                                > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                > > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                                > > > > Even those who did give up and
                                                > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                > > > > maintained their faith and this
                                                > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                > > > > for religions there are an awful
                                                > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Prometheus
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                > > > > with unconditional love for the
                                                > > > > master and you get a submissive
                                                > > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                                > > > > Buyer beware!
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                > > > > Are we to become more than
                                                > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                > > > > Maybe there is something
                                                > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                > > > > analogy."
                                                >
                                              • prometheus_973
                                                Really! This is a valid spiritual technique that, unlike those HK hands out and sells, actually works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 18, 2013
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Really! This is a valid spiritual
                                                  technique that, unlike those
                                                  HK hands out and sells, actually
                                                  works:

                                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo

                                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
                                                  > probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
                                                  > other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
                                                  > doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.
                                                  >
                                                  > Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
                                                  > a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
                                                  > Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
                                                  > strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
                                                  > (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
                                                  > highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
                                                  > your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.
                                                  >
                                                  > Non ;)
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Hello Non and All,
                                                  > > Actually, having good
                                                  > > interactive relationships
                                                  > > with other people isn't
                                                  > > necessarily about making
                                                  > > new friends nor having
                                                  > > the same religious, political,
                                                  > > and lifestyle beliefs.
                                                  > > Trying to get others
                                                  > > to follow or accept our
                                                  > > beliefs isn't the goal.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > It's more about being
                                                  > > "friendly" to/with/for
                                                  > > others and, thus, to
                                                  > > ourselves. Usually, being
                                                  > > friendly and promoting
                                                  > > "friendship" (versus making
                                                  > > friends) isn't that hard
                                                  > > to accomplish. And, if
                                                  > > it is, we need to make
                                                  > > more of an effort and
                                                  > > figure out what it is that's
                                                  > > making this difficult.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                                  > > some small talk, and recognizing
                                                  > > the other person by looking
                                                  > > directly at them goes a
                                                  > > long way.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > We can have a friendship
                                                  > > (i.e. relationship) with a
                                                  > > clerk whose full name we
                                                  > > might not ever know. It's
                                                  > > fun to simply, and naturally,
                                                  > > smile and be friendly to
                                                  > > strangers and acquaintances
                                                  > > without expecting anything
                                                  > > else. It takes the pressure
                                                  > > off everyone when we keep
                                                  > > it light. This lightness of
                                                  > > Being will help to improve
                                                  > > our lives and that of others.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > It's true that we will never
                                                  > > be able to be friendly with
                                                  > > some people. And, we won't
                                                  > > always be friends with those
                                                  > > people we know now. Some
                                                  > > people don't deserve our
                                                  > > efforts and will never deserve
                                                  > > it. They are enemies to what
                                                  > > we believe in.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > And, not all relationships
                                                  > > work out nor need to be
                                                  > > continued for the sake of
                                                  > > all those involved. Sometimes
                                                  > > people just have to let go
                                                  > > and move on even with
                                                  > > family members. But, these
                                                  > > are usually relationships
                                                  > > that have become complicated
                                                  > > via various factors and are
                                                  > > usually more one-sided
                                                  > > due to a lack of communication,
                                                  > > closed mindedness and
                                                  > > hurt feelings.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Our positive relationships
                                                  > > with nature, to animals,
                                                  > > and to other people are
                                                  > > connections that make our
                                                  > > lives worth living.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Prometheus
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "Non" wrote:
                                                  > > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                                  > > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                                  > > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                                  > > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                                  > > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                                  > > as far as religion may be growing. :)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Non ;)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "Non" wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                                  > > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                                  > > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                                  > > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                                  > > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                                  > > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                                  > > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                                  > > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                                  > > even a twisted moral imperative.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                                  > > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                                  > > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                                  > > like a small intervention.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                                  > > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                                  > > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                                  > > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                                  > > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                                  > > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                                  > > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Non ;)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > Hi I am,
                                                  > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                                  > > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                                  > > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                                  > > possible and let them go on their way.
                                                  > > Thanks for your comments.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > I AM wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                                  > > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                                  > > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                                  > > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                                  > > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > I AM
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                                  > > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                                  > > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                                  > > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                                  > > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                                  > > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                                  > > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                                  > > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                                  > > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                                  > > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                                  > > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                                  > > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                                  > > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                                  > > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                                  > > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                                  > > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                                  > > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                                  > > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                                  > > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                                  > > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                                  > > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                                  > > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                                  > > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                                  > > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                                  > > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                                  > > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                                  > > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                                  > > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                                  > > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                                  > > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                                  > > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                                  > > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                                  > > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                                  > > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                                  > > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                                  > > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                                  > > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                                  > > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                                  > > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                                  > > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                                  > > tonight.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > prometheus wrote:
                                                  > > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                  > > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                  > > > > > will ever become like, God,
                                                  > > > > > our imagined or possible
                                                  > > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                  > > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > But, it could be that the
                                                  > > > > > universe(s) just happened
                                                  > > > > > and that the remnants of
                                                  > > > > > other life forms were spread
                                                  > > > > > to this planet, and others,
                                                  > > > > > via space rubble... from
                                                  > > > > > destroyed civilizations
                                                  > > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                  > > > > > intentional seeding by an
                                                  > > > > > advanced race... which was,
                                                  > > > > > itself, seeded by another
                                                  > > > > > advanced race etc.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                  > > > > > experiences we have
                                                  > > > > > are the result of
                                                  > > > > > interaction with the
                                                  > > > > > quantum mechanical
                                                  > > > > > field?
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                  > > > > > that what really matters
                                                  > > > > > are relationships. It's our
                                                  > > > > > relationships with others,
                                                  > > > > > even strangers, that matter
                                                  > > > > > most. This is how we really
                                                  > > > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                                  > > > > > relationships are valuable.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Klemp, and others like
                                                  > > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                  > > > > > have arrested development;
                                                  > > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                  > > > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                                  > > > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                                  > > > > > or caring about others (are
                                                  > > > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                                  > > > > > impede social progress and
                                                  > > > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                                  > > > > > us for their own personal
                                                  > > > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                                  > > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                  > > > > > created can make life interesting
                                                  > > > > > and a challenge, although,
                                                  > > > > > it can/will also be physically
                                                  > > > > > and emotionally painful.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > But, having a regular life
                                                  > > > > > without additional commitments
                                                  > > > > > and involvements can also
                                                  > > > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                                  > > > > > and insights. We are never
                                                  > > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                  > > > > > not sure how peace of any
                                                  > > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                  > > > > > will ever happen in a world
                                                  > > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > One must care about everyone
                                                  > > > > > and have caring relationships
                                                  > > > > > with people in order for humankind
                                                  > > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                  > > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                  > > > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                                  > > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                  > > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                  > > > > > too.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > How can one really "care" about
                                                  > > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                  > > > > > except to keep them away from
                                                  > > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                  > > > > > people.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > When one thinks about it the
                                                  > > > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                                  > > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                  > > > > > seem to be more pathological
                                                  > > > > > than the introverts don't you
                                                  > > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                  > > > > > to force us introverts to become
                                                  > > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                  > > > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                                  > > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                  > > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                  > > > > > is more intimidating.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                  > > > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                                  > > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                  > > > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                                  > > > > > lives because of the differences
                                                  > > > > > we see in one another. This is
                                                  > > > > > why there are so many different
                                                  > > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                  > > > > > and wrong.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                  > > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                  > > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                  > > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                  > > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                  > > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                  > > > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > There are major flaws with all
                                                  > > > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                                  > > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                  > > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                  > > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                  > > > > > validation is that these various
                                                  > > > > > people in history/myth that the
                                                  > > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                  > > > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                                  > > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                  > > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                  > > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                  > > > > > have given them credibility, because
                                                  > > > > > it is believed and taught that
                                                  > > > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                                  > > > > > have been the source for their
                                                  > > > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                  > > > > > today, who are not even followers
                                                  > > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                  > > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                  > > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                  > > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                  > > > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                                  > > > > > Many of these people inspired
                                                  > > > > > others by never giving up in time
                                                  > > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                  > > > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                                  > > > > > Even those who did give up and
                                                  > > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                  > > > > > maintained their faith and this
                                                  > > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                  > > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                  > > > > > for religions there are an awful
                                                  > > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                  > > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Prometheus
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                  > > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                  > > > > > with unconditional love for the
                                                  > > > > > master and you get a submissive
                                                  > > > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                                  > > > > > Buyer beware!
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                  > > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                  > > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                  > > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                  > > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                  > > > > > Are we to become more than
                                                  > > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                  > > > > > Maybe there is something
                                                  > > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                  > > > > > analogy."
                                                  > >
                                                  >
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