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Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello I AM and All, Actually Klemp did cite some studies and I Googled it myself and saw that there is proof that identical twins share similarities. The
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
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      Hello I AM and All,
      Actually Klemp did cite some
      studies and I Googled it myself
      and saw that there is proof that
      identical twins share similarities.
      The mirrored behaviors could
      be genetical with brain frequencies
      and brain function being the
      same due to a quantum mechanical
      influence. I threw that last one
      in on my own, but who knows?

      I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
      use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
      Twin Soul concept. But, he did
      use the Lords of Karma ruse
      which, BTW, is not solely owned
      by Eckankar.

      Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
      to get new members by promising
      "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
      Liberation" but then he switches
      it up and demands (suggests)
      Mahanta Codependency and Sales
      Team participation in order to,
      possibly, get promoted and receive
      "Spiritual Rewards."

      It is funny that Klemp claims to
      take "Free Will" away from Souls
      who join Eckankar and follow him.
      Does this mean that those Souls
      who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
      have Free Will? It sounds like it!

      Prometheus


      iam999freedom wrote:
      Hi Prometheus,
      Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
      improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
      of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
      perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
      do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
      the environment.

      As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
      each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
      merely dress up dolls with no free choice?

      According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
      right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
      listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".

      What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
      Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
      etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
      prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.

      I AM

      prometheus_973" wrote:
      >
      > Hello I Am,
      > Okay, let me give it
      > a shot and use some
      > excerpts etc.
      >
      > HK's talking about
      > psychological studies
      > using identical twins
      > (not conjoined) that
      > were separated soon
      > after birth. They grew
      > up elsewhere and had
      > different influences
      > but dressed the same
      > and had the same type
      > of dog and gave the
      > dog the same name etc.,
      > etc.
      >
      > Thus, it seems that
      > Free Will relies upon
      > genetics (nature) more
      > than it does upon nurture,
      > although, HK says that
      > Yogi Berra stated that
      > "in theory, practice doesn't
      > matter; in practice, it does."
      >
      > BTW- According to Klemp
      > "The Lords of Karma have
      > selected a body with the
      > appropriate genes for each
      > student."
      >
      > However, HK has somewhat
      > contradicted what is in CH.
      > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
      > that "the spiritual workers
      > created man and placed
      > within him a living imperishable
      > Spirit, called Soul."
      >
      > There is no other mention
      > of these "spiritual workers."
      >
      > Anywho-
      >
      > HK is so clever the way
      > he'll twist a quote to add
      > even more confusion to
      > his message of absolute
      > servitude and obedience.
      >
      > I counted HK using "But"
      > four times. In an old H.I.
      > Letter he said never to
      > use "But" with one another
      > and that it was a nail in
      > the coffin of invention and
      > took away from what was
      > previously said.
      >
      > HK:
      > "BUT they dug in their heels
      > at the finding that such twins'
      > IQs were nearly as similar as
      > their heights."
      >
      > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
      > set. A kind owner may let it out
      > into the room on occasion. BUT
      > it is still in a house."
      >
      > "Researchers, too, can advance
      > only to a fixed point in their studies
      > of what elements make up a whole
      > individual. BUT they do not have
      > a magical key to the spiritual self.
      > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
      >
      > Funny that Klemp states that he
      > holds "a magical key" to control
      > others like a Black Magician would.
      >
      > "The Mahanta alone can help people
      > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
      > must have the right kind and amount
      > of daily experiences."
      >
      > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
      > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
      > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
      > the "right kind and amount of daily
      > experiences."
      >
      > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
      > doesn't like science and psychologists
      > since getting locked up in an asylum
      > and having to "play-the-game" to
      > be released early.
      >
      > HK states that "Real free will rests
      > entirely on trusting the Master's
      > prompts [signs?] as to which of
      > many choices to make in all things
      > human and divine."
      >
      > In other words do as I say not
      > as I do and there is no such
      > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
      > Does that kind sound like Cult
      > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
      > and scarier! HK goes on to say
      > that "He gives suggestions" and
      > "seldom does he issue directives...
      > True Free Will of an individual
      > stands upon the Mahanta's
      > guidance."
      >
      > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
      > as he speaks from experience:
      > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
      > ingrained ideas about patterns
      > against them. A subject thinks
      > he has the quick mind and eyes
      > to catch a Magician in an act,
      > even while he is being unburdened
      > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
      > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
      > played upon people by illusion."
      >
      > "Again, keep in-touch with the
      > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
      > exercises," but write those snail-
      > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
      > thinking and so I can use those
      > stories for my next book.
      >
      >
      > iam999freedom wrote:
      > Hi Prometheus,
      >
      > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
      > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
      > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
      >
      > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
      > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
      > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
      > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
      > different character than the other."
      >
      > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
      > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
      morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
      >
      > I still have yet to receive a response.
      >
      > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
      Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > I AM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > prometheus_wrote:
      > >
      > > The December 2012
      > > Eckankar Mystic World
      > > in the Ask the Master
      > > section are two interesting
      > > questions and answers.
      > >
      > > The first question has
      > > to do with Stress and
      > > how to overcome it.
      > >
      > > HK's answer is wishy-
      > > washy at best. He says
      > > that stress is "very
      > > uncomfortable... Yet
      > > stress is a good teacher."
      > >
      > > Klemp goes on to say
      > > that people increase
      > > their tolerance to stress
      > > by eating healthy, getting
      > > enough sleep, and by
      > > "Reducing our overuse
      > > of electronic devices."
      > >
      > > In other words it seems
      > > Klemp is saying, in a
      > > roundabout way, to use
      > > moderation. After all,
      > > he's saying to reduce
      > > "overuse."
      > >
      > > Then, again, how does
      > > a EK staffer at the ESC
      > > not use their computer
      > > 8 hours a day?
      > >
      > > The next question involves
      > > reincarnation. This guy's
      > > wife gave birth to a baby
      > > boy and two days later his
      > > mother translated (died).
      > > He indirectly asked if this
      > > new baby was his mother.
      > >
      > > Instead of giving this EKist
      > > a direct answer, Klemp,
      > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
      > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
      > > When it comes to rebirth,
      > > anything at all can happen...
      > > Whichever Soul is now your
      > > son, everything is in accord
      > > with what is best for all around."
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      >
    • iam999freedom
      Thats an interesting point about HK using Bait and Switch to get new members by promising Self-Mastery and Spiritual Liberation but then switching it up
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Thats an interesting point about HK using Bait and Switch to get new members by promising "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
        Liberation" but then switching it up and demanding (suggesting) Mahanta Codependency. It would be interesting to see how many Eckists started off on the path with problems with their father. I know I did as well as many others that I know of. It is so easy to get swarmed up in this feel good promise of Self-Mastery while codependency is subtly being reinforced at every turn. Before you know it codependency along with the threats about leaving the path can take a heavy toll on someone with a strong urge for independence.

        BTW, I think if there is such a thing as a Mahanta then it is our OWN HIGHEST STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

        I AM

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
        >
        > Hello I AM and All,
        > Actually Klemp did cite some
        > studies and I Googled it myself
        > and saw that there is proof that
        > identical twins share similarities.
        > The mirrored behaviors could
        > be genetical with brain frequencies
        > and brain function being the
        > same due to a quantum mechanical
        > influence. I threw that last one
        > in on my own, but who knows?
        >
        > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
        > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
        > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
        > use the Lords of Karma ruse
        > which, BTW, is not solely owned
        > by Eckankar.
        >
        > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
        > to get new members by promising
        > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
        > Liberation" but then he switches
        > it up and demands (suggests)
        > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
        > Team participation in order to,
        > possibly, get promoted and receive
        > "Spiritual Rewards."
        >
        > It is funny that Klemp claims to
        > take "Free Will" away from Souls
        > who join Eckankar and follow him.
        > Does this mean that those Souls
        > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
        > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > iam999freedom wrote:
        > Hi Prometheus,
        > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
        > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
        > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
        > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
        > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
        > the environment.
        >
        > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
        > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
        > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
        >
        > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
        > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
        > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
        >
        > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
        > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
        > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
        > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
        >
        > I AM
        >
        > prometheus_973" wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello I Am,
        > > Okay, let me give it
        > > a shot and use some
        > > excerpts etc.
        > >
        > > HK's talking about
        > > psychological studies
        > > using identical twins
        > > (not conjoined) that
        > > were separated soon
        > > after birth. They grew
        > > up elsewhere and had
        > > different influences
        > > but dressed the same
        > > and had the same type
        > > of dog and gave the
        > > dog the same name etc.,
        > > etc.
        > >
        > > Thus, it seems that
        > > Free Will relies upon
        > > genetics (nature) more
        > > than it does upon nurture,
        > > although, HK says that
        > > Yogi Berra stated that
        > > "in theory, practice doesn't
        > > matter; in practice, it does."
        > >
        > > BTW- According to Klemp
        > > "The Lords of Karma have
        > > selected a body with the
        > > appropriate genes for each
        > > student."
        > >
        > > However, HK has somewhat
        > > contradicted what is in CH.
        > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
        > > that "the spiritual workers
        > > created man and placed
        > > within him a living imperishable
        > > Spirit, called Soul."
        > >
        > > There is no other mention
        > > of these "spiritual workers."
        > >
        > > Anywho-
        > >
        > > HK is so clever the way
        > > he'll twist a quote to add
        > > even more confusion to
        > > his message of absolute
        > > servitude and obedience.
        > >
        > > I counted HK using "But"
        > > four times. In an old H.I.
        > > Letter he said never to
        > > use "But" with one another
        > > and that it was a nail in
        > > the coffin of invention and
        > > took away from what was
        > > previously said.
        > >
        > > HK:
        > > "BUT they dug in their heels
        > > at the finding that such twins'
        > > IQs were nearly as similar as
        > > their heights."
        > >
        > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
        > > set. A kind owner may let it out
        > > into the room on occasion. BUT
        > > it is still in a house."
        > >
        > > "Researchers, too, can advance
        > > only to a fixed point in their studies
        > > of what elements make up a whole
        > > individual. BUT they do not have
        > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
        > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
        > >
        > > Funny that Klemp states that he
        > > holds "a magical key" to control
        > > others like a Black Magician would.
        > >
        > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
        > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
        > > must have the right kind and amount
        > > of daily experiences."
        > >
        > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
        > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
        > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
        > > the "right kind and amount of daily
        > > experiences."
        > >
        > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
        > > doesn't like science and psychologists
        > > since getting locked up in an asylum
        > > and having to "play-the-game" to
        > > be released early.
        > >
        > > HK states that "Real free will rests
        > > entirely on trusting the Master's
        > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
        > > many choices to make in all things
        > > human and divine."
        > >
        > > In other words do as I say not
        > > as I do and there is no such
        > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
        > > Does that kind sound like Cult
        > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
        > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
        > > that "He gives suggestions" and
        > > "seldom does he issue directives...
        > > True Free Will of an individual
        > > stands upon the Mahanta's
        > > guidance."
        > >
        > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
        > > as he speaks from experience:
        > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
        > > ingrained ideas about patterns
        > > against them. A subject thinks
        > > he has the quick mind and eyes
        > > to catch a Magician in an act,
        > > even while he is being unburdened
        > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
        > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
        > > played upon people by illusion."
        > >
        > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
        > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
        > > exercises," but write those snail-
        > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
        > > thinking and so I can use those
        > > stories for my next book.
        > >
        > >
        > > iam999freedom wrote:
        > > Hi Prometheus,
        > >
        > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
        > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
        > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
        > >
        > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
        > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
        > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
        > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
        > > different character than the other."
        > >
        > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
        > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
        > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
        > >
        > > I still have yet to receive a response.
        > >
        > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
        > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > > I AM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > prometheus_wrote:
        > > >
        > > > The December 2012
        > > > Eckankar Mystic World
        > > > in the Ask the Master
        > > > section are two interesting
        > > > questions and answers.
        > > >
        > > > The first question has
        > > > to do with Stress and
        > > > how to overcome it.
        > > >
        > > > HK's answer is wishy-
        > > > washy at best. He says
        > > > that stress is "very
        > > > uncomfortable... Yet
        > > > stress is a good teacher."
        > > >
        > > > Klemp goes on to say
        > > > that people increase
        > > > their tolerance to stress
        > > > by eating healthy, getting
        > > > enough sleep, and by
        > > > "Reducing our overuse
        > > > of electronic devices."
        > > >
        > > > In other words it seems
        > > > Klemp is saying, in a
        > > > roundabout way, to use
        > > > moderation. After all,
        > > > he's saying to reduce
        > > > "overuse."
        > > >
        > > > Then, again, how does
        > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
        > > > not use their computer
        > > > 8 hours a day?
        > > >
        > > > The next question involves
        > > > reincarnation. This guy's
        > > > wife gave birth to a baby
        > > > boy and two days later his
        > > > mother translated (died).
        > > > He indirectly asked if this
        > > > new baby was his mother.
        > > >
        > > > Instead of giving this EKist
        > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
        > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
        > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
        > > > When it comes to rebirth,
        > > > anything at all can happen...
        > > > Whichever Soul is now your
        > > > son, everything is in accord
        > > > with what is best for all around."
        > > >
        > > > Prometheus
        > >
        >
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn t he have simple told the man that the child was or was not the soul of his mother?  Yep, he is wishy washy to say
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
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          Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the child was or was not the soul of his mother?  Yep, he is wishy washy to say the least.  He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly.  I guess he is afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask the same question and he might give the opposite answer.  Smells like a charlatan to me. 
          --- On Thu, 1/3/13, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, January 3, 2013, 2:58 AM

           
          The December 2012
          Eckankar Mystic World
          in the Ask the Master
          section are two interesting
          questions and answers.

          The first question has
          to do with Stress and
          how to overcome it.

          HK's answer is wishy-
          washy at best. He says
          that stress is "very
          uncomfortable... Yet
          stress is a good teacher."

          Klemp goes on to say
          that people increase
          their tolerance to stress
          by eating healthy, getting
          enough sleep, and by
          "Reducing our overuse
          of electronic devices."

          In other words it seems
          Klemp is saying, in a
          roundabout way, to use
          moderation. After all,
          he's saying to reduce
          "overuse."

          Then, again, how does
          a EK staffer at the ESC
          not use their computer
          8 hours a day?

          The next question involves
          reincarnation. This guy's
          wife gave birth to a baby
          boy and two days later his
          mother translated (died).
          He indirectly asked if this
          new baby was his mother.

          Instead of giving this EKist
          a direct answer, Klemp,
          the wishy-washy Mahanta
          says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
          When it comes to rebirth,
          anything at all can happen...
          Whichever Soul is now your
          son, everything is in accord
          with what is best for all around."

          Prometheus

        • Janice Pfeiffer
          Yep, You guys summed it up very well about what HK does.  Thanks for the info. ... From: iam999freedom Subject:
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
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            Yep, You guys summed it up very well about what HK does.  Thanks for the info.

            --- On Fri, 1/4/13, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

            From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, January 4, 2013, 1:45 AM

             
            Thats an interesting point about HK using Bait and Switch to get new members by promising "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
            Liberation" but then switching it up and demanding (suggesting) Mahanta Codependency. It would be interesting to see how many Eckists started off on the path with problems with their father. I know I did as well as many others that I know of. It is so easy to get swarmed up in this feel good promise of Self-Mastery while codependency is subtly being reinforced at every turn. Before you know it codependency along with the threats about leaving the path can take a heavy toll on someone with a strong urge for independence.

            BTW, I think if there is such a thing as a Mahanta then it is our OWN HIGHEST STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

            I AM

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
            >
            > Hello I AM and All,
            > Actually Klemp did cite some
            > studies and I Googled it myself
            > and saw that there is proof that
            > identical twins share similarities.
            > The mirrored behaviors could
            > be genetical with brain frequencies
            > and brain function being the
            > same due to a quantum mechanical
            > influence. I threw that last one
            > in on my own, but who knows?
            >
            > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
            > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
            > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
            > use the Lords of Karma ruse
            > which, BTW, is not solely owned
            > by Eckankar.
            >
            > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
            > to get new members by promising
            > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
            > Liberation" but then he switches
            > it up and demands (suggests)
            > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
            > Team participation in order to,
            > possibly, get promoted and receive
            > "Spiritual Rewards."
            >
            > It is funny that Klemp claims to
            > take "Free Will" away from Souls
            > who join Eckankar and follow him.
            > Does this mean that those Souls
            > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
            > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > iam999freedom wrote:
            > Hi Prometheus,
            > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
            > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
            > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
            > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
            > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
            > the environment.
            >
            > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
            > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
            > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
            >
            > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
            > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
            > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
            >
            > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
            > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
            > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
            > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
            >
            > I AM
            >
            > prometheus_973" wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello I Am,
            > > Okay, let me give it
            > > a shot and use some
            > > excerpts etc.
            > >
            > > HK's talking about
            > > psychological studies
            > > using identical twins
            > > (not conjoined) that
            > > were separated soon
            > > after birth. They grew
            > > up elsewhere and had
            > > different influences
            > > but dressed the same
            > > and had the same type
            > > of dog and gave the
            > > dog the same name etc.,
            > > etc.
            > >
            > > Thus, it seems that
            > > Free Will relies upon
            > > genetics (nature) more
            > > than it does upon nurture,
            > > although, HK says that
            > > Yogi Berra stated that
            > > "in theory, practice doesn't
            > > matter; in practice, it does."
            > >
            > > BTW- According to Klemp
            > > "The Lords of Karma have
            > > selected a body with the
            > > appropriate genes for each
            > > student."
            > >
            > > However, HK has somewhat
            > > contradicted what is in CH.
            > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
            > > that "the spiritual workers
            > > created man and placed
            > > within him a living imperishable
            > > Spirit, called Soul."
            > >
            > > There is no other mention
            > > of these "spiritual workers."
            > >
            > > Anywho-
            > >
            > > HK is so clever the way
            > > he'll twist a quote to add
            > > even more confusion to
            > > his message of absolute
            > > servitude and obedience.
            > >
            > > I counted HK using "But"
            > > four times. In an old H.I.
            > > Letter he said never to
            > > use "But" with one another
            > > and that it was a nail in
            > > the coffin of invention and
            > > took away from what was
            > > previously said.
            > >
            > > HK:
            > > "BUT they dug in their heels
            > > at the finding that such twins'
            > > IQs were nearly as similar as
            > > their heights."
            > >
            > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
            > > set. A kind owner may let it out
            > > into the room on occasion. BUT
            > > it is still in a house."
            > >
            > > "Researchers, too, can advance
            > > only to a fixed point in their studies
            > > of what elements make up a whole
            > > individual. BUT they do not have
            > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
            > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
            > >
            > > Funny that Klemp states that he
            > > holds "a magical key" to control
            > > others like a Black Magician would.
            > >
            > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
            > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
            > > must have the right kind and amount
            > > of daily experiences."
            > >
            > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
            > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
            > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
            > > the "right kind and amount of daily
            > > experiences."
            > >
            > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
            > > doesn't like science and psychologists
            > > since getting locked up in an asylum
            > > and having to "play-the-game" to
            > > be released early.
            > >
            > > HK states that "Real free will rests
            > > entirely on trusting the Master's
            > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
            > > many choices to make in all things
            > > human and divine."
            > >
            > > In other words do as I say not
            > > as I do and there is no such
            > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
            > > Does that kind sound like Cult
            > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
            > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
            > > that "He gives suggestions" and
            > > "seldom does he issue directives...
            > > True Free Will of an individual
            > > stands upon the Mahanta's
            > > guidance."
            > >
            > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
            > > as he speaks from experience:
            > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
            > > ingrained ideas about patterns
            > > against them. A subject thinks
            > > he has the quick mind and eyes
            > > to catch a Magician in an act,
            > > even while he is being unburdened
            > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
            > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
            > > played upon people by illusion."
            > >
            > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
            > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
            > > exercises," but write those snail-
            > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
            > > thinking and so I can use those
            > > stories for my next book.
            > >
            > >
            > > iam999freedom wrote:
            > > Hi Prometheus,
            > >
            > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
            > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
            > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
            > >
            > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
            > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
            > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
            > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
            > > different character than the other."
            > >
            > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
            > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
            > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
            > >
            > > I still have yet to receive a response.
            > >
            > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
            > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > > I AM
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > prometheus_wrote:
            > > >
            > > > The December 2012
            > > > Eckankar Mystic World
            > > > in the Ask the Master
            > > > section are two interesting
            > > > questions and answers.
            > > >
            > > > The first question has
            > > > to do with Stress and
            > > > how to overcome it.
            > > >
            > > > HK's answer is wishy-
            > > > washy at best. He says
            > > > that stress is "very
            > > > uncomfortable... Yet
            > > > stress is a good teacher."
            > > >
            > > > Klemp goes on to say
            > > > that people increase
            > > > their tolerance to stress
            > > > by eating healthy, getting
            > > > enough sleep, and by
            > > > "Reducing our overuse
            > > > of electronic devices."
            > > >
            > > > In other words it seems
            > > > Klemp is saying, in a
            > > > roundabout way, to use
            > > > moderation. After all,
            > > > he's saying to reduce
            > > > "overuse."
            > > >
            > > > Then, again, how does
            > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
            > > > not use their computer
            > > > 8 hours a day?
            > > >
            > > > The next question involves
            > > > reincarnation. This guy's
            > > > wife gave birth to a baby
            > > > boy and two days later his
            > > > mother translated (died).
            > > > He indirectly asked if this
            > > > new baby was his mother.
            > > >
            > > > Instead of giving this EKist
            > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
            > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
            > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
            > > > When it comes to rebirth,
            > > > anything at all can happen...
            > > > Whichever Soul is now your
            > > > son, everything is in accord
            > > > with what is best for all around."
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            > >
            >

          • prometheus_973
            Hello Janice, Yes, one would think that a Modern Day Prophet would, at least, attempt to live up to his PR, but that s not the case with Klemp. Why put
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
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              Hello Janice,
              Yes, one would think that
              a "Modern Day Prophet"
              would, at least, attempt
              to live up to his PR, but
              that's not the case with
              Klemp. Why put himself
              out there by demonstrating
              his powers? It's not like
              he announced to the
              whole world that he was....
              oh wait, he did!

              That was a long time ago
              and he never did make
              any predictions as most
              prophets do. Even Twit
              made some predictions.
              But, I'm sure that EKists
              haven't noticed and don't
              mine and that's why he
              doesn't feel any pressure
              to preform his responsibilities
              as a real prophet.

              Instead, Harold is very
              cautious of being too
              direct and understood.
              He'd rather have EKists
              fill-in the blanks and
              imagine what they want,
              need and expect until
              they go too far and have
              to have a behaviour
              adjustment by their RESA.
              That's why Klemp usually
              gives a very one dimensional
              perspective when he tells
              a story.

              Plus, Klemp's lazy so
              why put too much
              effort into it! And, he
              figures that all he needs
              to do is the KISS thing
              of Keeping It Simple (for)
              Stupid. Of course EKies
              will substitute Soul for
              Stupid but Stupid fits!

              It's really quite amazing
              how simple Klemp's
              redundant message is.
              If EKists would just compare
              Klemp's simple minded
              witticisms to other "spiritual"
              leaders one would have
              to wonder what they see
              in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
              but they just laugh at his
              quirkiness because he's
              operating on so many
              high planes of consciousness
              simultaneously. LOL!

              Just Google Kristamurti's
              quotes or the Dali Lama's.
              Klemp, the great Mahanta,
              isn't even in the same ball
              park with the current Dali
              Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
              (pg. 385) he claims that
              Buddhism is a 4th Plane
              religion while Eckankar
              is a 14th Plane Religion!
              But, EKists need to compare
              the two leaders and how
              they present themselves
              and what they have to say.

              Will ECKists make the
              comparison? No, of course
              not! They won't even allow
              the door to be opened a
              crack because some light
              might get in and show
              them the Truth. They can't
              handle the Truth and
              would rather remain ignorant.
              It's much easier, besides,
              what would they replace
              Eckankar with? It's too much
              responsibility to think for
              oneself and exercise free
              will. And, it would make
              life too lonely to lose all
              of those EK friends.

              Prometheus








              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a charlatan to me.


              Prometheus wrote:

              The December 2012
              Eckankar Mystic World
              in the Ask the Master
              section are two interesting
              questions and answers.

              The first question has
              to do with Stress and
              how to overcome it.

              HK's answer is wishy-
              washy at best. He says
              that stress is "very
              uncomfortable... Yet
              stress is a good teacher."

              Klemp goes on to say
              that people can increase
              their tolerance to stress
              by eating healthy, getting
              enough sleep, and by
              "Reducing our overuse
              of electronic devices."

              In other words it seems
              Klemp is saying, in a
              roundabout way, to use
              moderation. After all,
              he's saying to reduce
              "overuse."

              Then, again, how does
              a EK staffer at the ESC
              not use their computer
              8 hours a day?

              The next question involves
              reincarnation. This guy's
              wife gave birth to a baby
              boy and two days later his
              mother translated (died).
              He indirectly asked if this
              new baby was his mother.

              Instead of giving this EKist
              a direct answer, Klemp,
              the wishy-washy Mahanta
              says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
              When it comes to rebirth,
              anything at all can happen...
              Whichever Soul is now your
              son, everything is in accord
              with what is best for all around."

              Prometheus
            • Non
              So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn t do his own spiritual exercises,
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 5, 2013
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                So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master etc.

                Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)

                They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.

                Non ;)

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                >
                Hello Janice,
                Yes, one would think that
                a "Modern Day Prophet"
                would, at least, attempt
                to live up to his PR, but
                that's not the case with
                Klemp. Why put himself
                out there by demonstrating
                his powers? It's not like
                he announced to the
                whole world that he was....
                oh wait, he did!

                That was a long time ago
                and he never did make
                any predictions as most
                prophets do. Even Twit
                made some predictions.
                But, I'm sure that EKists
                haven't noticed and don't
                mine and that's why he
                doesn't feel any pressure
                to preform his responsibilities
                as a real prophet.

                Instead, Harold is very
                cautious of being too
                direct and understood.
                He'd rather have EKists
                fill-in the blanks and
                imagine what they want,
                need and expect until
                they go too far and have
                to have a behaviour
                adjustment by their RESA.
                That's why Klemp usually
                gives a very one dimensional
                perspective when he tells
                a story.

                Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                why put too much
                effort into it! And, he
                figures that all he needs
                to do is the KISS thing
                of Keeping It Simple (for)
                Stupid. Of course EKies
                will substitute Soul for
                Stupid but Stupid fits!

                It's really quite amazing
                how simple Klemp's
                redundant message is.
                If EKists would just compare
                Klemp's simple minded
                witticisms to other "spiritual"
                leaders one would have
                to wonder what they see
                in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                but they just laugh at his
                quirkiness because he's
                operating on so many
                high planes of consciousness
                simultaneously. LOL!

                Just Google Kristamurti's
                quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                isn't even in the same ball
                park with the current Dali
                Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                (pg. 385) he claims that
                Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                religion while Eckankar
                is a 14th Plane Religion!
                But, EKists need to compare
                the two leaders and how
                they present themselves
                and what they have to say.

                Will ECKists make the
                comparison? No, of course
                not! They won't even allow
                the door to be opened a
                crack because some light
                might get in and show
                them the Truth. They can't
                handle the Truth and
                would rather remain ignorant.
                It's much easier, besides,
                what would they replace
                Eckankar with? It's too much
                responsibility to think for
                oneself and exercise free
                will. And, it would make
                life too lonely to lose all
                of those EK friends.

                Prometheus








                Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
                child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
                least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                charlatan to me.


                Prometheus wrote:

                The December 2012
                Eckankar Mystic World
                in the Ask the Master
                section are two interesting
                questions and answers.

                The first question has
                to do with Stress and
                how to overcome it.

                HK's answer is wishy-
                washy at best. He says
                that stress is "very
                uncomfortable... Yet
                stress is a good teacher."

                Klemp goes on to say
                that people can increase
                their tolerance to stress
                by eating healthy, getting
                enough sleep, and by
                "Reducing our overuse
                of electronic devices."

                In other words it seems
                Klemp is saying, in a
                roundabout way, to use
                moderation. After all,
                he's saying to reduce
                "overuse."

                Then, again, how does
                a EK staffer at the ESC
                not use their computer
                8 hours a day?

                The next question involves
                reincarnation. This guy's
                wife gave birth to a baby
                boy and two days later his
                mother translated (died).
                He indirectly asked if this
                new baby was his mother.

                Instead of giving this EKist
                a direct answer, Klemp,
                the wishy-washy Mahanta
                says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                When it comes to rebirth,
                anything at all can happen...
                Whichever Soul is now your
                son, everything is in accord
                with what is best for all around."

                Prometheus
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Non and All, Thanks for the insightful summary. I was exploring the dogma of some fundamentalist charismatic Christian churches and saw a reference to a
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
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                  Hello Non and All,
                  Thanks for the insightful
                  summary. I was exploring
                  the dogma of some fundamentalist
                  charismatic Christian churches
                  and saw a reference to a
                  minor (Jewish) prophet:

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk

                  This person is mentioned
                  not by Jesus but by one of
                  his apostles in order to inspire
                  Faith.

                  Even when God seems to
                  turn his back and: causes
                  crops to fail; flocks to be
                  lost; cities attacked and
                  overrun by your enemies;
                  people brutalized, tortured
                  and killed, one is to have
                  Faith in God and a hereafter
                  reward for keeping this
                  faith. God's ego needs
                  you to believe in him
                  regardless of what pain
                  he allows to befall you.

                  One needs to project
                  a sense of hope in order
                  to better endure life, as
                  it is, no matter how bad.

                  And, it's easier to face these
                  challenges when you believe
                  that God is on your side and
                  not that of your oppressor.

                  However, does God really
                  take sides? It seems that God
                  is/was created in man's image.

                  All of this, it seems, is simply
                  an experiment to see if we
                  are all capable of evolving
                  into our "spiritual" potential.
                  Are we to become more than
                  merely a divine thought?
                  Maybe there is something
                  more to that piece of a mirror
                  analogy.

                  Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                  has the belief that you (and your
                  fellow believers or countrymen)
                  deserved the punishments as
                  repayment for sin. Some call it
                  Karma or cause and effect, or
                  what you sow you reap. Plus,
                  most religions see everyday
                  living and hardships as a test
                  of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                  to donate money to support
                  the specific dogma that, basically,
                  says and promises the same
                  or similar things in the imagined
                  hereafter.

                  Plus, each religion has always
                  blamed the non-believers for
                  the sins that they suffer under
                  as well. Eckankar is no different
                  and Klemp is more like these
                  preachers than EKists could ever
                  admit.

                  Well, got to go now....
                  I just had some thoughts
                  to share.

                  Prometheus

                  "Non" wrote:
                  So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                  compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises,
                  because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe
                  a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
                  material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
                  "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
                  and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
                  crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master
                  etc.

                  Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new
                  World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
                  anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
                  admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
                  always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet
                  in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
                  stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck
                  master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
                  is a more appropriate title to his life story.)

                  They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
                  think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                  advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on
                  the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                  drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it
                  is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.

                  Non ;)

                  prometheus wrote:

                  Hello Janice,
                  Yes, one would think that
                  a "Modern Day Prophet"
                  would, at least, attempt
                  to live up to his PR, but
                  that's not the case with
                  Klemp. Why put himself
                  out there by demonstrating
                  his powers? It's not like
                  he announced to the
                  whole world that he was....
                  oh wait, he did!

                  That was a long time ago
                  and he never did make
                  any predictions as most
                  prophets do. Even Twit
                  made some predictions.
                  But, I'm sure that EKists
                  haven't noticed and don't
                  mine and that's why he
                  doesn't feel any pressure
                  to preform his responsibilities
                  as a real prophet.

                  Instead, Harold is very
                  cautious of being too
                  direct and understood.
                  He'd rather have EKists
                  fill-in the blanks and
                  imagine what they want,
                  need and expect until
                  they go too far and have
                  to have a behaviour
                  adjustment by their RESA.
                  That's why Klemp usually
                  gives a very one dimensional
                  perspective when he tells
                  a story.

                  Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                  why put too much
                  effort into it! And, he
                  figures that all he needs
                  to do is the KISS thing
                  of Keeping It Simple (for)
                  Stupid. Of course EKies
                  will substitute Soul for
                  Stupid but Stupid fits!

                  It's really quite amazing
                  how simple Klemp's
                  redundant message is.
                  If EKists would just compare
                  Klemp's simple minded
                  witticisms to other "spiritual"
                  leaders one would have
                  to wonder what they see
                  in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                  but they just laugh at his
                  quirkiness because he's
                  operating on so many
                  high planes of consciousness
                  simultaneously. LOL!

                  Just Google Kristamurti's
                  quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                  Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                  isn't even in the same ball
                  park with the current Dali
                  Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                  (pg. 385) he claims that
                  Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                  religion while Eckankar
                  is a 14th Plane Religion!
                  But, EKists need to compare
                  the two leaders and how
                  they present themselves
                  and what they have to say.

                  Will ECKists make the
                  comparison? No, of course
                  not! They won't even allow
                  the door to be opened a
                  crack because some light
                  might get in and show
                  them the Truth. They can't
                  handle the Truth and
                  would rather remain ignorant.
                  It's much easier, besides,
                  what would they replace
                  Eckankar with? It's too much
                  responsibility to think for
                  oneself and exercise free
                  will. And, it would make
                  life too lonely to lose all
                  of those EK friends.

                  Prometheus


                  Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                  Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
                  child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
                  least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                  afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                  the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                  charlatan to me.


                  Prometheus wrote:

                  The December 2012
                  Eckankar Mystic World
                  in the Ask the Master
                  section are two interesting
                  questions and answers.

                  The first question has
                  to do with Stress and
                  how to overcome it.

                  HK's answer is wishy-
                  washy at best. He says
                  that stress is "very
                  uncomfortable... Yet
                  stress is a good teacher."

                  Klemp goes on to say
                  that people can increase
                  their tolerance to stress
                  by eating healthy, getting
                  enough sleep, and by
                  "Reducing our overuse
                  of electronic devices."

                  In other words it seems
                  Klemp is saying, in a
                  roundabout way, to use
                  moderation. After all,
                  he's saying to reduce
                  "overuse."

                  Then, again, how does
                  a EK staffer at the ESC
                  not use their computer
                  8 hours a day?

                  The next question involves
                  reincarnation. This guy's
                  wife gave birth to a baby
                  boy and two days later his
                  mother translated (died).
                  He indirectly asked if this
                  new baby was his mother.

                  Instead of giving this EKist
                  a direct answer, Klemp,
                  the wishy-washy Mahanta
                  says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                  When it comes to rebirth,
                  anything at all can happen...
                  Whichever Soul is now your
                  son, everything is in accord
                  with what is best for all around."

                  Prometheus
                • iam999freedom
                  Yes Non, combine authoritarianism with unconditional love for the master and you get a submissive control pattern as your reward. Buyer beware! Prometheus, you
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
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                    Yes Non, combine authoritarianism with unconditional love for the master and you get a submissive control pattern as your reward. Buyer beware!

                    Prometheus, you wrote:
                    "All of this, it seems, is simply
                    an experiment to see if we
                    are all capable of evolving
                    into our "spiritual" potential.
                    Are we to become more than
                    merely a divine thought?
                    Maybe there is something
                    more to that piece of a mirror
                    analogy."

                    I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again. I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the end result of the mirror analagy.

                    I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

                    I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event. Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more meaning than being in a pinball machine.

                    Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

                    Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think that it would ever be necessary.

                    Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

                    I AM

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Non and All,
                    > Thanks for the insightful
                    > summary. I was exploring
                    > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                    > charismatic Christian churches
                    > and saw a reference to a
                    > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                    >
                    > This person is mentioned
                    > not by Jesus but by one of
                    > his apostles in order to inspire
                    > Faith.
                    >
                    > Even when God seems to
                    > turn his back and: causes
                    > crops to fail; flocks to be
                    > lost; cities attacked and
                    > overrun by your enemies;
                    > people brutalized, tortured
                    > and killed, one is to have
                    > Faith in God and a hereafter
                    > reward for keeping this
                    > faith. God's ego needs
                    > you to believe in him
                    > regardless of what pain
                    > he allows to befall you.
                    >
                    > One needs to project
                    > a sense of hope in order
                    > to better endure life, as
                    > it is, no matter how bad.
                    >
                    > And, it's easier to face these
                    > challenges when you believe
                    > that God is on your side and
                    > not that of your oppressor.
                    >
                    > However, does God really
                    > take sides? It seems that God
                    > is/was created in man's image.
                    >
                    > All of this, it seems, is simply
                    > an experiment to see if we
                    > are all capable of evolving
                    > into our "spiritual" potential.
                    > Are we to become more than
                    > merely a divine thought?
                    > Maybe there is something
                    > more to that piece of a mirror
                    > analogy.
                    >
                    > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                    > has the belief that you (and your
                    > fellow believers or countrymen)
                    > deserved the punishments as
                    > repayment for sin. Some call it
                    > Karma or cause and effect, or
                    > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                    > most religions see everyday
                    > living and hardships as a test
                    > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                    > to donate money to support
                    > the specific dogma that, basically,
                    > says and promises the same
                    > or similar things in the imagined
                    > hereafter.
                    >
                    > Plus, each religion has always
                    > blamed the non-believers for
                    > the sins that they suffer under
                    > as well. Eckankar is no different
                    > and Klemp is more like these
                    > preachers than EKists could ever
                    > admit.
                    >
                    > Well, got to go now....
                    > I just had some thoughts
                    > to share.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > "Non" wrote:
                    > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                    > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises,
                    > because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe
                    > a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
                    > material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
                    > "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
                    > and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
                    > crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master
                    > etc.
                    >
                    > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new
                    > World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
                    > anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
                    > admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
                    > always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet
                    > in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
                    > stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck
                    > master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
                    > is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                    >
                    > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
                    > think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                    > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on
                    > the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                    > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it
                    > is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                    >
                    > Non ;)
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Janice,
                    > Yes, one would think that
                    > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                    > would, at least, attempt
                    > to live up to his PR, but
                    > that's not the case with
                    > Klemp. Why put himself
                    > out there by demonstrating
                    > his powers? It's not like
                    > he announced to the
                    > whole world that he was....
                    > oh wait, he did!
                    >
                    > That was a long time ago
                    > and he never did make
                    > any predictions as most
                    > prophets do. Even Twit
                    > made some predictions.
                    > But, I'm sure that EKists
                    > haven't noticed and don't
                    > mine and that's why he
                    > doesn't feel any pressure
                    > to preform his responsibilities
                    > as a real prophet.
                    >
                    > Instead, Harold is very
                    > cautious of being too
                    > direct and understood.
                    > He'd rather have EKists
                    > fill-in the blanks and
                    > imagine what they want,
                    > need and expect until
                    > they go too far and have
                    > to have a behaviour
                    > adjustment by their RESA.
                    > That's why Klemp usually
                    > gives a very one dimensional
                    > perspective when he tells
                    > a story.
                    >
                    > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                    > why put too much
                    > effort into it! And, he
                    > figures that all he needs
                    > to do is the KISS thing
                    > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                    > Stupid. Of course EKies
                    > will substitute Soul for
                    > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                    >
                    > It's really quite amazing
                    > how simple Klemp's
                    > redundant message is.
                    > If EKists would just compare
                    > Klemp's simple minded
                    > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                    > leaders one would have
                    > to wonder what they see
                    > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                    > but they just laugh at his
                    > quirkiness because he's
                    > operating on so many
                    > high planes of consciousness
                    > simultaneously. LOL!
                    >
                    > Just Google Kristamurti's
                    > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                    > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                    > isn't even in the same ball
                    > park with the current Dali
                    > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                    > (pg. 385) he claims that
                    > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                    > religion while Eckankar
                    > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                    > But, EKists need to compare
                    > the two leaders and how
                    > they present themselves
                    > and what they have to say.
                    >
                    > Will ECKists make the
                    > comparison? No, of course
                    > not! They won't even allow
                    > the door to be opened a
                    > crack because some light
                    > might get in and show
                    > them the Truth. They can't
                    > handle the Truth and
                    > would rather remain ignorant.
                    > It's much easier, besides,
                    > what would they replace
                    > Eckankar with? It's too much
                    > responsibility to think for
                    > oneself and exercise free
                    > will. And, it would make
                    > life too lonely to lose all
                    > of those EK friends.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                    > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
                    > child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
                    > least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                    > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                    > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                    > charlatan to me.
                    >
                    >
                    > Prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > The December 2012
                    > Eckankar Mystic World
                    > in the Ask the Master
                    > section are two interesting
                    > questions and answers.
                    >
                    > The first question has
                    > to do with Stress and
                    > how to overcome it.
                    >
                    > HK's answer is wishy-
                    > washy at best. He says
                    > that stress is "very
                    > uncomfortable... Yet
                    > stress is a good teacher."
                    >
                    > Klemp goes on to say
                    > that people can increase
                    > their tolerance to stress
                    > by eating healthy, getting
                    > enough sleep, and by
                    > "Reducing our overuse
                    > of electronic devices."
                    >
                    > In other words it seems
                    > Klemp is saying, in a
                    > roundabout way, to use
                    > moderation. After all,
                    > he's saying to reduce
                    > "overuse."
                    >
                    > Then, again, how does
                    > a EK staffer at the ESC
                    > not use their computer
                    > 8 hours a day?
                    >
                    > The next question involves
                    > reincarnation. This guy's
                    > wife gave birth to a baby
                    > boy and two days later his
                    > mother translated (died).
                    > He indirectly asked if this
                    > new baby was his mother.
                    >
                    > Instead of giving this EKist
                    > a direct answer, Klemp,
                    > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                    > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                    > When it comes to rebirth,
                    > anything at all can happen...
                    > Whichever Soul is now your
                    > son, everything is in accord
                    > with what is best for all around."
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello I Am, Non, and All, I m not so sure that humans will ever become like, God, our imagined or possible creator. And, if at all, certainly not in any
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                      Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                      I'm not so sure that humans
                      will ever become like, God,
                      our imagined or possible
                      creator. And, if at all, certainly
                      not in any lifetime soon.

                      But, it could be that the
                      universe(s) just happened
                      and that the remnants of
                      other life forms were spread
                      to this planet, and others,
                      via space rubble... from
                      destroyed civilizations
                      and planets. Or, was it an
                      intentional seeding by an
                      advanced race... which was,
                      itself, seeded by another
                      advanced race etc.

                      Maybe the "spiritual"
                      experiences we have
                      are the result of
                      interaction with the
                      quantum mechanical
                      field?

                      Anyway, it seems to me
                      that what really matters
                      are relationships. It's our
                      relationships with others,
                      even strangers, that matter
                      most. This is how we really
                      learn and grow. Loving
                      relationships are valuable.

                      Klemp, and others like
                      him, are: liars; posers;
                      have arrested development;
                      are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                      and are even psychopathic.
                      They are incapable of learning,
                      or caring about others (are
                      unloving) and attempt to
                      impede social progress and
                      justice. They use the rest of
                      us for their own personal
                      greed and selfish desires.

                      Then, again, this strife and
                      uncertainly (stress) that is
                      created can make life interesting
                      and a challenge, although,
                      it can/will also be physically
                      and emotionally painful.

                      But, having a regular life
                      without additional commitments
                      and involvements can also
                      offer rewarding experiences
                      and insights. We are never
                      all that alone. However, I'm
                      not sure how peace of any
                      sort (except in one's own mind)
                      will ever happen in a world
                      controlled by sociopaths.

                      One must care about everyone
                      and have caring relationships
                      with people in order for humankind
                      to advance and survive. To me,
                      this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                      I almost included animals, too,
                      but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                      include "caring" about them (all)
                      too.

                      How can one really "care" about
                      the sociopaths and psychopaths
                      except to keep them away from
                      nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                      people.

                      When one thinks about it the
                      definition of what's "normal"
                      keeps changing. The extroverts
                      seem to be more pathological
                      than the introverts don't you
                      agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                      to force us introverts to become
                      extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                      loves company I suppose or is
                      it that an army of glassy-eyed
                      introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                      is more intimidating.

                      In any case the idea of a "God"
                      to worship and viewed as being
                      "involved" in our lives detracts
                      from "us" being involved in our
                      lives because of the differences
                      we see in one another. This is
                      why there are so many different
                      religious dogmas of what's right
                      and wrong.

                      Therefore, the differences in the
                      way in which "God" is worshipped,
                      for me, shows that "God" does not
                      exist. We don't want to be alone
                      nor take responsibility for our own
                      actions. Thus, we blame God or
                      use God as our scape goat.

                      There are major flaws with all
                      of these religions and the so-called
                      "source" of their scriptures. It's
                      all hearsay and the only thing
                      that, supposedly, gives them
                      validation is that these various
                      people in history/myth that the
                      scribes wrote about are claimed
                      to have said or done some nice,
                      inspirational, brave, or insightful
                      things a very long time ago. Age/
                      time (being ancient) seems to
                      have given them credibility, because
                      it is believed and taught that
                      only Divine Intercession could
                      have been the source for their
                      Divine Inspiration.

                      But, IMO, there are many people,
                      today, who are not even followers
                      of these dogmas that are as, or
                      more: honest; brave; insightful;
                      inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                      than the prophets, saints, and founders
                      of these major and minor religions.
                      Many of these people inspired
                      others by never giving up in time
                      of conflict because, sometimes,
                      there weren't many other choices.
                      Even those who did give up and
                      had bad things befall them, still,
                      maintained their faith and this
                      fact turned them into "prophets"
                      or saints. If this is the standard
                      for religions there are an awful
                      lot of believers and faithful, today,
                      that just as deluded and desperate.

                      Prometheus


                      iam999freedom" wrote:
                      Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                      with unconditional love for the
                      master and you get a submissive
                      control pattern as your reward.
                      Buyer beware!

                      Prometheus, you wrote:
                      "All of this, it seems, is simply
                      an experiment to see if we
                      are all capable of evolving
                      into our "spiritual" potential.
                      Are we to become more than
                      merely a divine thought?
                      Maybe there is something
                      more to that piece of a mirror
                      analogy."

                      I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                      shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                      I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                      stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                      the end result of the mirror analagy.

                      I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                      see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

                      I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                      or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                      Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                      has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                      lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                      from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                      meaning than being in a pinball machine.

                      Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                      spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                      lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                      and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                      needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                      would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                      It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

                      Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                      that it would ever be necessary.

                      Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

                      I AM

                      prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Non and All,
                      > Thanks for the insightful
                      > summary. I was exploring
                      > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                      > charismatic Christian churches
                      > and saw a reference to a
                      > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                      >
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                      >
                      > This person is mentioned
                      > not by Jesus but by one of
                      > his apostles in order to inspire
                      > Faith.
                      >
                      > Even when God seems to
                      > turn his back and: causes
                      > crops to fail; flocks to be
                      > lost; cities attacked and
                      > overrun by your enemies;
                      > people brutalized, tortured
                      > and killed, one is to have
                      > Faith in God and a hereafter
                      > reward for keeping this
                      > faith. God's ego needs
                      > you to believe in him
                      > regardless of what pain
                      > he allows to befall you.
                      >
                      > One needs to project
                      > a sense of hope in order
                      > to better endure life, as
                      > it is, no matter how bad.
                      >
                      > And, it's easier to face these
                      > challenges when you believe
                      > that God is on your side and
                      > not that of your oppressor.
                      >
                      > However, does God really
                      > take sides? It seems that God
                      > is/was created in man's image.
                      >
                      > All of this, it seems, is simply
                      > an experiment to see if we
                      > are all capable of evolving
                      > into our "spiritual" potential.
                      > Are we to become more than
                      > merely a divine thought?
                      > Maybe there is something
                      > more to that piece of a mirror
                      > analogy.
                      >
                      > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                      > has the belief that you (and your
                      > fellow believers or countrymen)
                      > deserved the punishments as
                      > repayment for sin. Some call it
                      > Karma or cause and effect, or
                      > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                      > most religions see everyday
                      > living and hardships as a test
                      > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                      > to donate money to support
                      > the specific dogma that, basically,
                      > says and promises the same
                      > or similar things in the imagined
                      > hereafter.
                      >
                      > Plus, each religion has always
                      > blamed the non-believers for
                      > the sins that they suffer under
                      > as well. Eckankar is no different
                      > and Klemp is more like these
                      > preachers than EKists could ever
                      > admit.
                      >
                      > Well, got to go now....
                      > I just had some thoughts
                      > to share.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      "Non" wrote:
                      So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                      compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                      exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                      beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                      from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                      tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                      he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                      answers to ask the master etc.
                      >
                      Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                      as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                      not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                      is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                      Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                      leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                      him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                      with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                      by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                      >
                      They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                      you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                      advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                      on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                      drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                      it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                      >
                      > Non ;)
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Janice,
                      > Yes, one would think that
                      > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                      > would, at least, attempt
                      > to live up to his PR, but
                      > that's not the case with
                      > Klemp. Why put himself
                      > out there by demonstrating
                      > his powers? It's not like
                      > he announced to the
                      > whole world that he was....
                      > oh wait, he did!
                      >
                      > That was a long time ago
                      > and he never did make
                      > any predictions as most
                      > prophets do. Even Twit
                      > made some predictions.
                      > But, I'm sure that EKists
                      > haven't noticed and don't
                      > mine and that's why he
                      > doesn't feel any pressure
                      > to preform his responsibilities
                      > as a real prophet.
                      >
                      > Instead, Harold is very
                      > cautious of being too
                      > direct and understood.
                      > He'd rather have EKists
                      > fill-in the blanks and
                      > imagine what they want,
                      > need and expect until
                      > they go too far and have
                      > to have a behaviour
                      > adjustment by their RESA.
                      > That's why Klemp usually
                      > gives a very one dimensional
                      > perspective when he tells
                      > a story.
                      >
                      > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                      > why put too much
                      > effort into it! And, he
                      > figures that all he needs
                      > to do is the KISS thing
                      > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                      > Stupid. Of course EKies
                      > will substitute Soul for
                      > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                      >
                      > It's really quite amazing
                      > how simple Klemp's
                      > redundant message is.
                      > If EKists would just compare
                      > Klemp's simple minded
                      > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                      > leaders one would have
                      > to wonder what they see
                      > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                      > but they just laugh at his
                      > quirkiness because he's
                      > operating on so many
                      > high planes of consciousness
                      > simultaneously. LOL!
                      >
                      > Just Google Kristamurti's
                      > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                      > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                      > isn't even in the same ball
                      > park with the current Dali
                      > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                      > (pg. 385) he claims that
                      > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                      > religion while Eckankar
                      > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                      > But, EKists need to compare
                      > the two leaders and how
                      > they present themselves
                      > and what they have to say.
                      >
                      > Will ECKists make the
                      > comparison? No, of course
                      > not! They won't even allow
                      > the door to be opened a
                      > crack because some light
                      > might get in and show
                      > them the Truth. They can't
                      > handle the Truth and
                      > would rather remain ignorant.
                      > It's much easier, besides,
                      > what would they replace
                      > Eckankar with? It's too much
                      > responsibility to think for
                      > oneself and exercise free
                      > will. And, it would make
                      > life too lonely to lose all
                      > of those EK friends.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                      > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                      > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                      > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                      > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                      > charlatan to me.
                      >
                      >
                      > Prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > The December 2012
                      > Eckankar Mystic World
                      > in the Ask the Master
                      > section are two interesting
                      > questions and answers.
                      >
                      > The first question has
                      > to do with Stress and
                      > how to overcome it.
                      >
                      > HK's answer is wishy-
                      > washy at best. He says
                      > that stress is "very
                      > uncomfortable... Yet
                      > stress is a good teacher."
                      >
                      > Klemp goes on to say
                      > that people can increase
                      > their tolerance to stress
                      > by eating healthy, getting
                      > enough sleep, and by
                      > "Reducing our overuse
                      > of electronic devices."
                      >
                      > In other words it seems
                      > Klemp is saying, in a
                      > roundabout way, to use
                      > moderation. After all,
                      > he's saying to reduce
                      > "overuse."
                      >
                      > Then, again, how does
                      > a EK staffer at the ESC
                      > not use their computer
                      > 8 hours a day?
                      >
                      > The next question involves
                      > reincarnation. This guy's
                      > wife gave birth to a baby
                      > boy and two days later his
                      > mother translated (died).
                      > He indirectly asked if this
                      > new baby was his mother.
                      >
                      > Instead of giving this EKist
                      > a direct answer, Klemp,
                      > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                      > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                      > When it comes to rebirth,
                      > anything at all can happen...
                      > Whichever Soul is now your
                      > son, everything is in accord
                      > with what is best for all around."
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                    • Janice Pfeiffer
                      Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                        Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 

                        --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM

                         
                        Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                        I'm not so sure that humans
                        will ever become like, God,
                        our imagined or possible
                        creator. And, if at all, certainly
                        not in any lifetime soon.

                        But, it could be that the
                        universe(s) just happened
                        and that the remnants of
                        other life forms were spread
                        to this planet, and others,
                        via space rubble... from
                        destroyed civilizations
                        and planets. Or, was it an
                        intentional seeding by an
                        advanced race... which was,
                        itself, seeded by another
                        advanced race etc.

                        Maybe the "spiritual"
                        experiences we have
                        are the result of
                        interaction with the
                        quantum mechanical
                        field?

                        Anyway, it seems to me
                        that what really matters
                        are relationships. It's our
                        relationships with others,
                        even strangers, that matter
                        most. This is how we really
                        learn and grow. Loving
                        relationships are valuable.

                        Klemp, and others like
                        him, are: liars; posers;
                        have arrested development;
                        are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                        and are even psychopathic.
                        They are incapable of learning,
                        or caring about others (are
                        unloving) and attempt to
                        impede social progress and
                        justice. They use the rest of
                        us for their own personal
                        greed and selfish desires.

                        Then, again, this strife and
                        uncertainly (stress) that is
                        created can make life interesting
                        and a challenge, although,
                        it can/will also be physically
                        and emotionally painful.

                        But, having a regular life
                        without additional commitments
                        and involvements can also
                        offer rewarding experiences
                        and insights. We are never
                        all that alone. However, I'm
                        not sure how peace of any
                        sort (except in one's own mind)
                        will ever happen in a world
                        controlled by sociopaths.

                        One must care about everyone
                        and have caring relationships
                        with people in order for humankind
                        to advance and survive. To me,
                        this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                        I almost included animals, too,
                        but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                        include "caring" about them (all)
                        too.

                        How can one really "care" about
                        the sociopaths and psychopaths
                        except to keep them away from
                        nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                        people.

                        When one thinks about it the
                        definition of what's "normal"
                        keeps changing. The extroverts
                        seem to be more pathological
                        than the introverts don't you
                        agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                        to force us introverts to become
                        extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                        loves company I suppose or is
                        it that an army of glassy-eyed
                        introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                        is more intimidating.

                        In any case the idea of a "God"
                        to worship and viewed as being
                        "involved" in our lives detracts
                        from "us" being involved in our
                        lives because of the differences
                        we see in one another. This is
                        why there are so many different
                        religious dogmas of what's right
                        and wrong.

                        Therefore, the differences in the
                        way in which "God" is worshipped,
                        for me, shows that "God" does not
                        exist. We don't want to be alone
                        nor take responsibility for our own
                        actions. Thus, we blame God or
                        use God as our scape goat.

                        There are major flaws with all
                        of these religions and the so-called
                        "source" of their scriptures. It's
                        all hearsay and the only thing
                        that, supposedly, gives them
                        validation is that these various
                        people in history/myth that the
                        scribes wrote about are claimed
                        to have said or done some nice,
                        inspirational, brave, or insightful
                        things a very long time ago. Age/
                        time (being ancient) seems to
                        have given them credibility, because
                        it is believed and taught that
                        only Divine Intercession could
                        have been the source for their
                        Divine Inspiration.

                        But, IMO, there are many people,
                        today, who are not even followers
                        of these dogmas that are as, or
                        more: honest; brave; insightful;
                        inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                        than the prophets, saints, and founders
                        of these major and minor religions.
                        Many of these people inspired
                        others by never giving up in time
                        of conflict because, sometimes,
                        there weren't many other choices.
                        Even those who did give up and
                        had bad things befall them, still,
                        maintained their faith and this
                        fact turned them into "prophets"
                        or saints. If this is the standard
                        for religions there are an awful
                        lot of believers and faithful, today,
                        that just as deluded and desperate.

                        Prometheus


                        iam999freedom" wrote:
                        Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                        with unconditional love for the
                        master and you get a submissive
                        control pattern as your reward.
                        Buyer beware!

                        Prometheus, you wrote:
                        "All of this, it seems, is simply
                        an experiment to see if we
                        are all capable of evolving
                        into our "spiritual" potential.
                        Are we to become more than
                        merely a divine thought?
                        Maybe there is something
                        more to that piece of a mirror
                        analogy."

                        I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                        shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                        I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                        stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                        the end result of the mirror analagy.

                        I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                        see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

                        I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                        or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                        Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                        has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                        lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                        from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                        meaning than being in a pinball machine.

                        Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                        spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                        lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                        and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                        needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                        would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                        It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

                        Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                        that it would ever be necessary.

                        Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

                        I AM

                        prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Non and All,
                        > Thanks for the insightful
                        > summary. I was exploring
                        > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                        > charismatic Christian churches
                        > and saw a reference to a
                        > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                        >
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                        >
                        > This person is mentioned
                        > not by Jesus but by one of
                        > his apostles in order to inspire
                        > Faith.
                        >
                        > Even when God seems to
                        > turn his back and: causes
                        > crops to fail; flocks to be
                        > lost; cities attacked and
                        > overrun by your enemies;
                        > people brutalized, tortured
                        > and killed, one is to have
                        > Faith in God and a hereafter
                        > reward for keeping this
                        > faith. God's ego needs
                        > you to believe in him
                        > regardless of what pain
                        > he allows to befall you.
                        >
                        > One needs to project
                        > a sense of hope in order
                        > to better endure life, as
                        > it is, no matter how bad.
                        >
                        > And, it's easier to face these
                        > challenges when you believe
                        > that God is on your side and
                        > not that of your oppressor.
                        >
                        > However, does God really
                        > take sides? It seems that God
                        > is/was created in man's image.
                        >
                        > All of this, it seems, is simply
                        > an experiment to see if we
                        > are all capable of evolving
                        > into our "spiritual" potential.
                        > Are we to become more than
                        > merely a divine thought?
                        > Maybe there is something
                        > more to that piece of a mirror
                        > analogy.
                        >
                        > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                        > has the belief that you (and your
                        > fellow believers or countrymen)
                        > deserved the punishments as
                        > repayment for sin. Some call it
                        > Karma or cause and effect, or
                        > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                        > most religions see everyday
                        > living and hardships as a test
                        > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                        > to donate money to support
                        > the specific dogma that, basically,
                        > says and promises the same
                        > or similar things in the imagined
                        > hereafter.
                        >
                        > Plus, each religion has always
                        > blamed the non-believers for
                        > the sins that they suffer under
                        > as well. Eckankar is no different
                        > and Klemp is more like these
                        > preachers than EKists could ever
                        > admit.
                        >
                        > Well, got to go now....
                        > I just had some thoughts
                        > to share.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        "Non" wrote:
                        So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                        compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                        exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                        beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                        from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                        tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                        he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                        answers to ask the master etc.
                        >
                        Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                        as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                        not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                        is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                        Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                        leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                        him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                        with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                        by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                        >
                        They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                        you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                        advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                        on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                        drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                        it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                        >
                        > Non ;)
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Janice,
                        > Yes, one would think that
                        > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                        > would, at least, attempt
                        > to live up to his PR, but
                        > that's not the case with
                        > Klemp. Why put himself
                        > out there by demonstrating
                        > his powers? It's not like
                        > he announced to the
                        > whole world that he was....
                        > oh wait, he did!
                        >
                        > That was a long time ago
                        > and he never did make
                        > any predictions as most
                        > prophets do. Even Twit
                        > made some predictions.
                        > But, I'm sure that EKists
                        > haven't noticed and don't
                        > mine and that's why he
                        > doesn't feel any pressure
                        > to preform his responsibilities
                        > as a real prophet.
                        >
                        > Instead, Harold is very
                        > cautious of being too
                        > direct and understood.
                        > He'd rather have EKists
                        > fill-in the blanks and
                        > imagine what they want,
                        > need and expect until
                        > they go too far and have
                        > to have a behaviour
                        > adjustment by their RESA.
                        > That's why Klemp usually
                        > gives a very one dimensional
                        > perspective when he tells
                        > a story.
                        >
                        > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                        > why put too much
                        > effort into it! And, he
                        > figures that all he needs
                        > to do is the KISS thing
                        > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                        > Stupid. Of course EKies
                        > will substitute Soul for
                        > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                        >
                        > It's really quite amazing
                        > how simple Klemp's
                        > redundant message is.
                        > If EKists would just compare
                        > Klemp's simple minded
                        > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                        > leaders one would have
                        > to wonder what they see
                        > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                        > but they just laugh at his
                        > quirkiness because he's
                        > operating on so many
                        > high planes of consciousness
                        > simultaneously. LOL!
                        >
                        > Just Google Kristamurti's
                        > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                        > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                        > isn't even in the same ball
                        > park with the current Dali
                        > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                        > (pg. 385) he claims that
                        > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                        > religion while Eckankar
                        > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                        > But, EKists need to compare
                        > the two leaders and how
                        > they present themselves
                        > and what they have to say.
                        >
                        > Will ECKists make the
                        > comparison? No, of course
                        > not! They won't even allow
                        > the door to be opened a
                        > crack because some light
                        > might get in and show
                        > them the Truth. They can't
                        > handle the Truth and
                        > would rather remain ignorant.
                        > It's much easier, besides,
                        > what would they replace
                        > Eckankar with? It's too much
                        > responsibility to think for
                        > oneself and exercise free
                        > will. And, it would make
                        > life too lonely to lose all
                        > of those EK friends.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                        > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                        > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                        > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                        > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                        > charlatan to me.
                        >
                        >
                        > Prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > The December 2012
                        > Eckankar Mystic World
                        > in the Ask the Master
                        > section are two interesting
                        > questions and answers.
                        >
                        > The first question has
                        > to do with Stress and
                        > how to overcome it.
                        >
                        > HK's answer is wishy-
                        > washy at best. He says
                        > that stress is "very
                        > uncomfortable... Yet
                        > stress is a good teacher."
                        >
                        > Klemp goes on to say
                        > that people can increase
                        > their tolerance to stress
                        > by eating healthy, getting
                        > enough sleep, and by
                        > "Reducing our overuse
                        > of electronic devices."
                        >
                        > In other words it seems
                        > Klemp is saying, in a
                        > roundabout way, to use
                        > moderation. After all,
                        > he's saying to reduce
                        > "overuse."
                        >
                        > Then, again, how does
                        > a EK staffer at the ESC
                        > not use their computer
                        > 8 hours a day?
                        >
                        > The next question involves
                        > reincarnation. This guy's
                        > wife gave birth to a baby
                        > boy and two days later his
                        > mother translated (died).
                        > He indirectly asked if this
                        > new baby was his mother.
                        >
                        > Instead of giving this EKist
                        > a direct answer, Klemp,
                        > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                        > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                        > When it comes to rebirth,
                        > anything at all can happen...
                        > Whichever Soul is now your
                        > son, everything is in accord
                        > with what is best for all around."
                        >
                        > Prometheus

                      • tuza8
                        Hi prometheus973,I agree what you said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name is master ching hai, master ching hai claim
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                          Hi prometheus973,I agree what you
                          said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name is master ching hai, master ching hai claim herself is 8 billion plane initiation level,do you believe it?in 1985 she become master and began taught mediatation on light and sound,whom said come from higher world into this lower world ,her also said come to this lower world many times,alway is a master for help people.do you believe?
                          --- In EckankarSurvirvorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                          > I'm not so sure that humans
                          > will ever become like, God,
                          > our imagined or possible
                          > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                          > not in any lifetime soon.
                          >
                          > But, it could be that the
                          > universe(s) just happened
                          > and that the remnants of
                          > other life forms were spread
                          > to this planet, and others,
                          > via space rubble... from
                          > destroyed civilizations
                          > and planets. Or, was it an
                          > intentional seeding by an
                          > advanced race... which was,
                          > itself, seeded by another
                          > advanced race etc.
                          >
                          > Maybe the "spiritual"
                          > experiences we have
                          > are the result of
                          > interaction with the
                          > quantum mechanical
                          > field?
                          >
                          > Anyway, it seems to me
                          > that what really matters
                          > are relationships. It's our
                          > relationships with others,
                          > even strangers, that matter
                          > most. This is how we really
                          > learn and grow. Loving
                          > relationships are valuable.
                          >
                          > Klemp, and others like
                          > him, are: liars; posers;
                          > have arrested development;
                          > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                          > and are even psychopathic.
                          > They are incapable of learning,
                          > or caring about others (are
                          > unloving) and attempt to
                          > impede social progress and
                          > justice. They use the rest of
                          > us for their own personal
                          > greed and selfish desires.
                          >
                          > Then, again, this strife and
                          > uncertainly (stress) that is
                          > created can make life interesting
                          > and a challenge, although,
                          > it can/will also be physically
                          > and emotionally painful.
                          >
                          > But, having a regular life
                          > without additional commitments
                          > and involvements can also
                          > offer rewarding experiences
                          > and insights. We are never
                          > all that alone. However, I'm
                          > not sure how peace of any
                          > sort (except in one's own mind)
                          > will ever happen in a world
                          > controlled by sociopaths.
                          >
                          > One must care about everyone
                          > and have caring relationships
                          > with people in order for humankind
                          > to advance and survive. To me,
                          > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                          > I almost included animals, too,
                          > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                          > include "caring" about them (all)
                          > too.
                          >
                          > How can one really "care" about
                          > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                          > except to keep them away from
                          > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                          > people.
                          >
                          > When one thinks about it the
                          > definition of what's "normal"
                          > keeps changing. The extroverts
                          > seem to be more pathological
                          > than the introverts don't you
                          > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                          > to force us introverts to become
                          > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                          > loves company I suppose or is
                          > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                          > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                          > is more intimidating.
                          >
                          > In any case the idea of a "God"
                          > to worship and viewed as being
                          > "involved" in our lives detracts
                          > from "us" being involved in our
                          > lives because of the differences
                          > we see in one another. This is
                          > why there are so many different
                          > religious dogmas of what's right
                          > and wrong.
                          >
                          > Therefore, the differences in the
                          > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                          > for me, shows that "God" does not
                          > exist. We don't want to be alone
                          > nor take responsibility for our own
                          > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                          > use God as our scape goat.
                          >
                          > There are major flaws with all
                          > of these religions and the so-called
                          > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                          > all hearsay and the only thing
                          > that, supposedly, gives them
                          > validation is that these various
                          > people in history/myth that the
                          > scribes wrote about are claimed
                          > to have said or done some nice,
                          > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                          > things a very long time ago. Age/
                          > time (being ancient) seems to
                          > have given them credibility, because
                          > it is believed and taught that
                          > only Divine Intercession could
                          > have been the source for their
                          > Divine Inspiration.
                          >
                          > But, IMO, there are many people,
                          > today, who are not even followers
                          > of these dogmas that are as, or
                          > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                          > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                          > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                          > of these major and minor religions.
                          > Many of these people inspired
                          > others by never giving up in time
                          > of conflict because, sometimes,
                          > there weren't many other choices.
                          > Even those who did give up and
                          > had bad things befall them, still,
                          > maintained their faith and this
                          > fact turned them into "prophets"
                          > or saints. If this is the standard
                          > for religions there are an awful
                          > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                          > that just as deluded and desperate.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          > iam999freedom" wrote:
                          > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                          > with unconditional love for the
                          > master and you get a submissive
                          > control pattern as your reward.
                          > Buyer beware!
                          >
                          > Prometheus, you wrote:
                          > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                          > an experiment to see if we
                          > are all capable of evolving
                          > into our "spiritual" potential.
                          > Are we to become more than
                          > merely a divine thought?
                          > Maybe there is something
                          > more to that piece of a mirror
                          > analogy."
                          >
                          > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                          > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                          > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                          > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                          > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                          >
                          > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                          > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                          >
                          > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                          > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                          > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                          > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                          > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                          > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                          > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                          >
                          > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                          > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                          > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                          > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                          > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                          > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                          > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                          >
                          > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                          > that it would ever be necessary.
                          >
                          > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                          >
                          > I AM
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello Non and All,
                          > > Thanks for the insightful
                          > > summary. I was exploring
                          > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                          > > charismatic Christian churches
                          > > and saw a reference to a
                          > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                          > >
                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                          > >
                          > > This person is mentioned
                          > > not by Jesus but by one of
                          > > his apostles in order to inspire
                          > > Faith.
                          > >
                          > > Even when God seems to
                          > > turn his back and: causes
                          > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                          > > lost; cities attacked and
                          > > overrun by your enemies;
                          > > people brutalized, tortured
                          > > and killed, one is to have
                          > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                          > > reward for keeping this
                          > > faith. God's ego needs
                          > > you to believe in him
                          > > regardless of what pain
                          > > he allows to befall you.
                          > >
                          > > One needs to project
                          > > a sense of hope in order
                          > > to better endure life, as
                          > > it is, no matter how bad.
                          > >
                          > > And, it's easier to face these
                          > > challenges when you believe
                          > > that God is on your side and
                          > > not that of your oppressor.
                          > >
                          > > However, does God really
                          > > take sides? It seems that God
                          > > is/was created in man's image.
                          > >
                          > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                          > > an experiment to see if we
                          > > are all capable of evolving
                          > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                          > > Are we to become more than
                          > > merely a divine thought?
                          > > Maybe there is something
                          > > more to that piece of a mirror
                          > > analogy.
                          > >
                          > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                          > > has the belief that you (and your
                          > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                          > > deserved the punishments as
                          > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                          > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                          > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                          > > most religions see everyday
                          > > living and hardships as a test
                          > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                          > > to donate money to support
                          > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                          > > says and promises the same
                          > > or similar things in the imagined
                          > > hereafter.
                          > >
                          > > Plus, each religion has always
                          > > blamed the non-believers for
                          > > the sins that they suffer under
                          > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                          > > and Klemp is more like these
                          > > preachers than EKists could ever
                          > > admit.
                          > >
                          > > Well, got to go now....
                          > > I just had some thoughts
                          > > to share.
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > "Non" wrote:
                          > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                          > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                          > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                          > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                          > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                          > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                          > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                          > answers to ask the master etc.
                          > >
                          > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                          > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                          > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                          > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                          > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                          > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                          > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                          > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                          > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                          > >
                          > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                          > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                          > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                          > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                          > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                          > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                          > >
                          > > Non ;)
                          > >
                          > > prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello Janice,
                          > > Yes, one would think that
                          > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                          > > would, at least, attempt
                          > > to live up to his PR, but
                          > > that's not the case with
                          > > Klemp. Why put himself
                          > > out there by demonstrating
                          > > his powers? It's not like
                          > > he announced to the
                          > > whole world that he was....
                          > > oh wait, he did!
                          > >
                          > > That was a long time ago
                          > > and he never did make
                          > > any predictions as most
                          > > prophets do. Even Twit
                          > > made some predictions.
                          > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                          > > haven't noticed and don't
                          > > mine and that's why he
                          > > doesn't feel any pressure
                          > > to preform his responsibilities
                          > > as a real prophet.
                          > >
                          > > Instead, Harold is very
                          > > cautious of being too
                          > > direct and understood.
                          > > He'd rather have EKists
                          > > fill-in the blanks and
                          > > imagine what they want,
                          > > need and expect until
                          > > they go too far and have
                          > > to have a behaviour
                          > > adjustment by their RESA.
                          > > That's why Klemp usually
                          > > gives a very one dimensional
                          > > perspective when he tells
                          > > a story.
                          > >
                          > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                          > > why put too much
                          > > effort into it! And, he
                          > > figures that all he needs
                          > > to do is the KISS thing
                          > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                          > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                          > > will substitute Soul for
                          > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                          > >
                          > > It's really quite amazing
                          > > how simple Klemp's
                          > > redundant message is.
                          > > If EKists would just compare
                          > > Klemp's simple minded
                          > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                          > > leaders one would have
                          > > to wonder what they see
                          > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                          > > but they just laugh at his
                          > > quirkiness because he's
                          > > operating on so many
                          > > high planes of consciousness
                          > > simultaneously. LOL!
                          > >
                          > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                          > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                          > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                          > > isn't even in the same ball
                          > > park with the current Dali
                          > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                          > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                          > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                          > > religion while Eckankar
                          > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                          > > But, EKists need to compare
                          > > the two leaders and how
                          > > they present themselves
                          > > and what they have to say.
                          > >
                          > > Will ECKists make the
                          > > comparison? No, of course
                          > > not! They won't even allow
                          > > the door to be opened a
                          > > crack because some light
                          > > might get in and show
                          > > them the Truth. They can't
                          > > handle the Truth and
                          > > would rather remain ignorant.
                          > > It's much easier, besides,
                          > > what would they replace
                          > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                          > > responsibility to think for
                          > > oneself and exercise free
                          > > will. And, it would make
                          > > life too lonely to lose all
                          > > of those EK friends.
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                          > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                          > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                          > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                          > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                          > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                          > > charlatan to me.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          > > The December 2012
                          > > Eckankar Mystic World
                          > > in the Ask the Master
                          > > section are two interesting
                          > > questions and answers.
                          > >
                          > > The first question has
                          > > to do with Stress and
                          > > how to overcome it.
                          > >
                          > > HK's answer is wishy-
                          > > washy at best. He says
                          > > that stress is "very
                          > > uncomfortable... Yet
                          > > stress is a good teacher."
                          > >
                          > > Klemp goes on to say
                          > > that people can increase
                          > > their tolerance to stress
                          > > by eating healthy, getting
                          > > enough sleep, and by
                          > > "Reducing our overuse
                          > > of electronic devices."
                          > >
                          > > In other words it seems
                          > > Klemp is saying, in a
                          > > roundabout way, to use
                          > > moderation. After all,
                          > > he's saying to reduce
                          > > "overuse."
                          > >
                          > > Then, again, how does
                          > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                          > > not use their computer
                          > > 8 hours a day?
                          > >
                          > > The next question involves
                          > > reincarnation. This guy's
                          > > wife gave birth to a baby
                          > > boy and two days later his
                          > > mother translated (died).
                          > > He indirectly asked if this
                          > > new baby was his mother.
                          > >
                          > > Instead of giving this EKist
                          > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                          > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                          > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                          > > When it comes to rebirth,
                          > > anything at all can happen...
                          > > Whichever Soul is now your
                          > > son, everything is in accord
                          > > with what is best for all around."
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          >
                        • iam999freedom
                          Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning,
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                            Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

                            Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

                            I AM

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            >
                            > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                            > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                            > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                            > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                            >
                            > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From: prometheus_973
                            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                            > I'm not so sure that humans
                            > will ever become like, God,
                            > our imagined or possible
                            > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                            > not in any lifetime soon.
                            >
                            > But, it could be that the
                            > universe(s) just happened
                            > and that the remnants of
                            > other life forms were spread
                            > to this planet, and others,
                            > via space rubble... from
                            > destroyed civilizations
                            > and planets. Or, was it an
                            > intentional seeding by an
                            > advanced race... which was,
                            > itself, seeded by another
                            > advanced race etc.
                            >
                            > Maybe the "spiritual"
                            > experiences we have
                            > are the result of
                            > interaction with the
                            > quantum mechanical
                            > field?
                            >
                            > Anyway, it seems to me
                            > that what really matters
                            > are relationships. It's our
                            > relationships with others,
                            > even strangers, that matter
                            > most. This is how we really
                            > learn and grow. Loving
                            > relationships are valuable.
                            >
                            > Klemp, and others like
                            > him, are: liars; posers;
                            > have arrested development;
                            > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                            > and are even psychopathic.
                            > They are incapable of learning,
                            > or caring about others (are
                            > unloving) and attempt to
                            > impede social progress and
                            > justice. They use the rest of
                            > us for their own personal
                            > greed and selfish desires.
                            >
                            > Then, again, this strife and
                            > uncertainly (stress) that is
                            > created can make life interesting
                            > and a challenge, although,
                            > it can/will also be physically
                            > and emotionally painful.
                            >
                            > But, having a regular life
                            > without additional commitments
                            > and involvements can also
                            > offer rewarding experiences
                            > and insights. We are never
                            > all that alone. However, I'm
                            > not sure how peace of any
                            > sort (except in one's own mind)
                            > will ever happen in a world
                            > controlled by sociopaths.
                            >
                            > One must care about everyone
                            > and have caring relationships
                            > with people in order for humankind
                            > to advance and survive. To me,
                            > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                            > I almost included animals, too,
                            > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                            > include "caring" about them (all)
                            > too.
                            >
                            > How can one really "care" about
                            > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                            > except to keep them away from
                            > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                            > people.
                            >
                            > When one thinks about it the
                            > definition of what's "normal"
                            > keeps changing. The extroverts
                            > seem to be more pathological
                            > than the introverts don't you
                            > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                            > to force us introverts to become
                            > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                            > loves company I suppose or is
                            > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                            > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                            > is more intimidating.
                            >
                            > In any case the idea of a "God"
                            > to worship and viewed as being
                            > "involved" in our lives detracts
                            > from "us" being involved in our
                            > lives because of the differences
                            > we see in one another. This is
                            > why there are so many different
                            > religious dogmas of what's right
                            > and wrong.
                            >
                            > Therefore, the differences in the
                            > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                            > for me, shows that "God" does not
                            > exist. We don't want to be alone
                            > nor take responsibility for our own
                            > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                            > use God as our scape goat.
                            >
                            > There are major flaws with all
                            > of these religions and the so-called
                            > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                            > all hearsay and the only thing
                            > that, supposedly, gives them
                            > validation is that these various
                            > people in history/myth that the
                            > scribes wrote about are claimed
                            > to have said or done some nice,
                            > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                            > things a very long time ago. Age/
                            > time (being ancient) seems to
                            > have given them credibility, because
                            > it is believed and taught that
                            > only Divine Intercession could
                            > have been the source for their
                            > Divine Inspiration.
                            >
                            > But, IMO, there are many people,
                            > today, who are not even followers
                            > of these dogmas that are as, or
                            > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                            > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                            > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                            > of these major and minor religions.
                            > Many of these people inspired
                            > others by never giving up in time
                            > of conflict because, sometimes,
                            > there weren't many other choices.
                            > Even those who did give up and
                            > had bad things befall them, still,
                            > maintained their faith and this
                            > fact turned them into "prophets"
                            > or saints. If this is the standard
                            > for religions there are an awful
                            > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                            > that just as deluded and desperate.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > iam999freedom" wrote:
                            > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                            > with unconditional love for the
                            > master and you get a submissive
                            > control pattern as your reward.
                            > Buyer beware!
                            >
                            > Prometheus, you wrote:
                            > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                            > an experiment to see if we
                            > are all capable of evolving
                            > into our "spiritual" potential.
                            > Are we to become more than
                            > merely a divine thought?
                            > Maybe there is something
                            > more to that piece of a mirror
                            > analogy."
                            >
                            > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                            > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                            > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                            > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                            > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                            >
                            > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                            > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                            >
                            > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                            > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                            > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                            > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                            > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                            > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                            > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                            >
                            > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                            > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                            > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                            > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                            > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                            > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                            > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                            >
                            > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                            > that it would ever be necessary.
                            >
                            > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                            >
                            > I AM
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello Non and All,
                            > > Thanks for the insightful
                            > > summary. I was exploring
                            > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                            > > charismatic Christian churches
                            > > and saw a reference to a
                            > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                            > >
                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                            > >
                            > > This person is mentioned
                            > > not by Jesus but by one of
                            > > his apostles in order to inspire
                            > > Faith.
                            > >
                            > > Even when God seems to
                            > > turn his back and: causes
                            > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                            > > lost; cities attacked and
                            > > overrun by your enemies;
                            > > people brutalized, tortured
                            > > and killed, one is to have
                            > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                            > > reward for keeping this
                            > > faith. God's ego needs
                            > > you to believe in him
                            > > regardless of what pain
                            > > he allows to befall you.
                            > >
                            > > One needs to project
                            > > a sense of hope in order
                            > > to better endure life, as
                            > > it is, no matter how bad.
                            > >
                            > > And, it's easier to face these
                            > > challenges when you believe
                            > > that God is on your side and
                            > > not that of your oppressor.
                            > >
                            > > However, does God really
                            > > take sides? It seems that God
                            > > is/was created in man's image.
                            > >
                            > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                            > > an experiment to see if we
                            > > are all capable of evolving
                            > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                            > > Are we to become more than
                            > > merely a divine thought?
                            > > Maybe there is something
                            > > more to that piece of a mirror
                            > > analogy.
                            > >
                            > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                            > > has the belief that you (and your
                            > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                            > > deserved the punishments as
                            > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                            > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                            > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                            > > most religions see everyday
                            > > living and hardships as a test
                            > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                            > > to donate money to support
                            > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                            > > says and promises the same
                            > > or similar things in the imagined
                            > > hereafter.
                            > >
                            > > Plus, each religion has always
                            > > blamed the non-believers for
                            > > the sins that they suffer under
                            > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                            > > and Klemp is more like these
                            > > preachers than EKists could ever
                            > > admit.
                            > >
                            > > Well, got to go now....
                            > > I just had some thoughts
                            > > to share.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > "Non" wrote:
                            > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                            > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                            > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                            > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                            > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                            > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                            > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                            > answers to ask the master etc.
                            > >
                            > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                            > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                            > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                            > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                            > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                            > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                            > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                            > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                            > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                            > >
                            > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                            > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                            > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                            > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                            > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                            > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                            > >
                            > > Non ;)
                            > >
                            > > prometheus wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello Janice,
                            > > Yes, one would think that
                            > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                            > > would, at least, attempt
                            > > to live up to his PR, but
                            > > that's not the case with
                            > > Klemp. Why put himself
                            > > out there by demonstrating
                            > > his powers? It's not like
                            > > he announced to the
                            > > whole world that he was....
                            > > oh wait, he did!
                            > >
                            > > That was a long time ago
                            > > and he never did make
                            > > any predictions as most
                            > > prophets do. Even Twit
                            > > made some predictions.
                            > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                            > > haven't noticed and don't
                            > > mine and that's why he
                            > > doesn't feel any pressure
                            > > to preform his responsibilities
                            > > as a real prophet.
                            > >
                            > > Instead, Harold is very
                            > > cautious of being too
                            > > direct and understood.
                            > > He'd rather have EKists
                            > > fill-in the blanks and
                            > > imagine what they want,
                            > > need and expect until
                            > > they go too far and have
                            > > to have a behaviour
                            > > adjustment by their RESA.
                            > > That's why Klemp usually
                            > > gives a very one dimensional
                            > > perspective when he tells
                            > > a story.
                            > >
                            > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                            > > why put too much
                            > > effort into it! And, he
                            > > figures that all he needs
                            > > to do is the KISS thing
                            > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                            > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                            > > will substitute Soul for
                            > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                            > >
                            > > It's really quite amazing
                            > > how simple Klemp's
                            > > redundant message is.
                            > > If EKists would just compare
                            > > Klemp's simple minded
                            > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                            > > leaders one would have
                            > > to wonder what they see
                            > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                            > > but they just laugh at his
                            > > quirkiness because he's
                            > > operating on so many
                            > > high planes of consciousness
                            > > simultaneously. LOL!
                            > >
                            > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                            > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                            > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                            > > isn't even in the same ball
                            > > park with the current Dali
                            > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                            > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                            > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                            > > religion while Eckankar
                            > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                            > > But, EKists need to compare
                            > > the two leaders and how
                            > > they present themselves
                            > > and what they have to say.
                            > >
                            > > Will ECKists make the
                            > > comparison? No, of course
                            > > not! They won't even allow
                            > > the door to be opened a
                            > > crack because some light
                            > > might get in and show
                            > > them the Truth. They can't
                            > > handle the Truth and
                            > > would rather remain ignorant.
                            > > It's much easier, besides,
                            > > what would they replace
                            > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                            > > responsibility to think for
                            > > oneself and exercise free
                            > > will. And, it would make
                            > > life too lonely to lose all
                            > > of those EK friends.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                            > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                            > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                            > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                            > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                            > > charlatan to me.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus wrote:
                            > >
                            > > The December 2012
                            > > Eckankar Mystic World
                            > > in the Ask the Master
                            > > section are two interesting
                            > > questions and answers.
                            > >
                            > > The first question has
                            > > to do with Stress and
                            > > how to overcome it.
                            > >
                            > > HK's answer is wishy-
                            > > washy at best. He says
                            > > that stress is "very
                            > > uncomfortable... Yet
                            > > stress is a good teacher."
                            > >
                            > > Klemp goes on to say
                            > > that people can increase
                            > > their tolerance to stress
                            > > by eating healthy, getting
                            > > enough sleep, and by
                            > > "Reducing our overuse
                            > > of electronic devices."
                            > >
                            > > In other words it seems
                            > > Klemp is saying, in a
                            > > roundabout way, to use
                            > > moderation. After all,
                            > > he's saying to reduce
                            > > "overuse."
                            > >
                            > > Then, again, how does
                            > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                            > > not use their computer
                            > > 8 hours a day?
                            > >
                            > > The next question involves
                            > > reincarnation. This guy's
                            > > wife gave birth to a baby
                            > > boy and two days later his
                            > > mother translated (died).
                            > > He indirectly asked if this
                            > > new baby was his mother.
                            > >
                            > > Instead of giving this EKist
                            > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                            > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                            > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                            > > When it comes to rebirth,
                            > > anything at all can happen...
                            > > Whichever Soul is now your
                            > > son, everything is in accord
                            > > with what is best for all around."
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Tuza8, Welcome to the site! Thanks for the info on, yet, another religious scammer/fraud. I m assuming that your questions are rhetorical. I found some
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello Tuza8,
                              Welcome to the site!
                              Thanks for the info
                              on, yet, another religious
                              scammer/fraud.

                              I'm assuming that your
                              questions are rhetorical.

                              I found some info on this
                              person and the following
                              video:

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I

                              Here's more info that that
                              I uncovered on Wikipedia:

                              [Note the info within the (*****)
                              It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                              Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]

                              Quan Yin Method

                              In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the 'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with which she is now associated.[10]


                              *****
                              Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]

                              Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best, easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                              *****


                              Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the

                              "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:

                              Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                              Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                              Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                              Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                              Refrain from the use of intoxicants.

                              [edit]Quan Yin Method in China

                              Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]

                              The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July 1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in 20 provinces and cities.[10]

                              In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies of "heretical texts."[10]

                              [edit]Criticism

                              [edit]Environmental violations
                              In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400 and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned to establish a park on the site.[33]

                              Yes, I read where she is
                              very popular in Taiwan
                              and that she has 20,000
                              followers world wide.

                              She's half Vietnamese
                              and Chinese and became
                              a disciple of Thakar Singh
                              and studied Surat Shabd
                              Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                              Light and Sound), but
                              was, later, initiated by
                              a Buddhist monk.

                              All those who follow
                              her are asked to become
                              Vegetarians and initiation
                              is free of charge. It doesn't
                              appear that there is a
                              Membership Donation/Fee
                              like with Ecklankar, but
                              she does make a lot of
                              money by selling books,
                              videos, etc. She also owns
                              Vegetarian and Vegan
                              Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                              has jewelry outlets, and
                              designs her own clothing
                              line.

                              Her name, Ching Hai,
                              means "pure ocean."

                              Google the "Quan Yin
                              Method" to find out
                              more about her daily
                              meditation of the inner
                              L & S.

                              She's been described as a:
                              "tireless publicity seeker;
                              The Immaterial Girl... Part
                              Buddha, Part Madonna;
                              The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                              ... merchandizing mystic
                              from Taiwan."

                              So, it seems that because
                              of her Buddhist connections
                              that she's associated with
                              the more familiar Buddhism,
                              however, she teaches the
                              less known (outside India)
                              Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                              ECKankar.

                              Funny, though, that her
                              religion/enterprise had
                              a later start than ECKankar
                              but is making more money
                              and bringing in more people.

                              Prometheus

                              "tuza8" wrote:

                              Hi prometheu,
                              I agree what you said,
                              they are some false master
                              in public.

                              recently one femala master,
                              her name is master ching hai,
                              master ching hai claim herself
                              is 8 billion plane initiation level,

                              do you believe it?

                              in 1985 she become master
                              and began taught mediatation
                              on light and sound, whom said
                              come from higher world into
                              this lower world ,

                              her also said come to this
                              lower world many times,
                              alway is a master for help
                              people.

                              do you believe?

                              prometheus_973" wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                              > > I'm not so sure that humans
                              > > will ever become like, God,
                              > > our imagined or possible
                              > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                              > > not in any lifetime soon.
                              > >
                              > > But, it could be that the
                              > > universe(s) just happened
                              > > and that the remnants of
                              > > other life forms were spread
                              > > to this planet, and others,
                              > > via space rubble... from
                              > > destroyed civilizations
                              > > and planets. Or, was it an
                              > > intentional seeding by an
                              > > advanced race... which was,
                              > > itself, seeded by another
                              > > advanced race etc.
                              > >
                              > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                              > > experiences we have
                              > > are the result of
                              > > interaction with the
                              > > quantum mechanical
                              > > field?
                              > >
                              > > Anyway, it seems to me
                              > > that what really matters
                              > > are relationships. It's our
                              > > relationships with others,
                              > > even strangers, that matter
                              > > most. This is how we really
                              > > learn and grow. Loving
                              > > relationships are valuable.
                              > >
                              > > Klemp, and others like
                              > > him, are: liars; posers;
                              > > have arrested development;
                              > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                              > > and are even psychopathic.
                              > > They are incapable of learning,
                              > > or caring about others (are
                              > > unloving) and attempt to
                              > > impede social progress and
                              > > justice. They use the rest of
                              > > us for their own personal
                              > > greed and selfish desires.
                              > >
                              > > Then, again, this strife and
                              > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                              > > created can make life interesting
                              > > and a challenge, although,
                              > > it can/will also be physically
                              > > and emotionally painful.
                              > >
                              > > But, having a regular life
                              > > without additional commitments
                              > > and involvements can also
                              > > offer rewarding experiences
                              > > and insights. We are never
                              > > all that alone. However, I'm
                              > > not sure how peace of any
                              > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                              > > will ever happen in a world
                              > > controlled by sociopaths.
                              > >
                              > > One must care about everyone
                              > > and have caring relationships
                              > > with people in order for humankind
                              > > to advance and survive. To me,
                              > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                              > > I almost included animals, too,
                              > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                              > > include "caring" about them (all)
                              > > too.
                              > >
                              > > How can one really "care" about
                              > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                              > > except to keep them away from
                              > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                              > > people.
                              > >
                              > > When one thinks about it the
                              > > definition of what's "normal"
                              > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                              > > seem to be more pathological
                              > > than the introverts don't you
                              > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                              > > to force us introverts to become
                              > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                              > > loves company I suppose or is
                              > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                              > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                              > > is more intimidating.
                              > >
                              > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                              > > to worship and viewed as being
                              > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                              > > from "us" being involved in our
                              > > lives because of the differences
                              > > we see in one another. This is
                              > > why there are so many different
                              > > religious dogmas of what's right
                              > > and wrong.
                              > >
                              > > Therefore, the differences in the
                              > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                              > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                              > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                              > > nor take responsibility for our own
                              > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                              > > use God as our scape goat.
                              > >
                              > > There are major flaws with all
                              > > of these religions and the so-called
                              > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                              > > all hearsay and the only thing
                              > > that, supposedly, gives them
                              > > validation is that these various
                              > > people in history/myth that the
                              > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                              > > to have said or done some nice,
                              > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                              > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                              > > time (being ancient) seems to
                              > > have given them credibility, because
                              > > it is believed and taught that
                              > > only Divine Intercession could
                              > > have been the source for their
                              > > Divine Inspiration.
                              > >
                              > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                              > > today, who are not even followers
                              > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                              > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                              > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                              > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                              > > of these major and minor religions.
                              > > Many of these people inspired
                              > > others by never giving up in time
                              > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                              > > there weren't many other choices.
                              > > Even those who did give up and
                              > > had bad things befall them, still,
                              > > maintained their faith and this
                              > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                              > > or saints. If this is the standard
                              > > for religions there are an awful
                              > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                              > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                              > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                              > > with unconditional love for the
                              > > master and you get a submissive
                              > > control pattern as your reward.
                              > > Buyer beware!
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                              > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                              > > an experiment to see if we
                              > > are all capable of evolving
                              > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                              > > Are we to become more than
                              > > merely a divine thought?
                              > > Maybe there is something
                              > > more to that piece of a mirror
                              > > analogy."
                              > >
                              > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                              > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                              > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                              > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                              > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                              > >
                              > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                              > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                              > >
                              > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                              > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                              > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                              > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                              > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                              > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                              > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                              > >
                              > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                              > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                              > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                              > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                              > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                              > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                              > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                              > >
                              > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                              > > that it would ever be necessary.
                              > >
                              > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                              > >
                              > > I AM
                              > >
                              > > prometheus wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hello Non and All,
                              > > > Thanks for the insightful
                              > > > summary. I was exploring
                              > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                              > > > charismatic Christian churches
                              > > > and saw a reference to a
                              > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                              > > >
                              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                              > > >
                              > > > This person is mentioned
                              > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                              > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                              > > > Faith.
                              > > >
                              > > > Even when God seems to
                              > > > turn his back and: causes
                              > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                              > > > lost; cities attacked and
                              > > > overrun by your enemies;
                              > > > people brutalized, tortured
                              > > > and killed, one is to have
                              > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                              > > > reward for keeping this
                              > > > faith. God's ego needs
                              > > > you to believe in him
                              > > > regardless of what pain
                              > > > he allows to befall you.
                              > > >
                              > > > One needs to project
                              > > > a sense of hope in order
                              > > > to better endure life, as
                              > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                              > > >
                              > > > And, it's easier to face these
                              > > > challenges when you believe
                              > > > that God is on your side and
                              > > > not that of your oppressor.
                              > > >
                              > > > However, does God really
                              > > > take sides? It seems that God
                              > > > is/was created in man's image.
                              > > >
                              > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                              > > > an experiment to see if we
                              > > > are all capable of evolving
                              > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                              > > > Are we to become more than
                              > > > merely a divine thought?
                              > > > Maybe there is something
                              > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                              > > > analogy.
                              > > >
                              > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                              > > > has the belief that you (and your
                              > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                              > > > deserved the punishments as
                              > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                              > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                              > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                              > > > most religions see everyday
                              > > > living and hardships as a test
                              > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                              > > > to donate money to support
                              > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                              > > > says and promises the same
                              > > > or similar things in the imagined
                              > > > hereafter.
                              > > >
                              > > > Plus, each religion has always
                              > > > blamed the non-believers for
                              > > > the sins that they suffer under
                              > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                              > > > and Klemp is more like these
                              > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                              > > > admit.
                              > > >
                              > > > Well, got to go now....
                              > > > I just had some thoughts
                              > > > to share.
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus
                              > > >
                              > > "Non" wrote:
                              > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                              > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                              > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                              > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                              > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                              > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                              > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                              > > answers to ask the master etc.
                              > > >
                              > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                              > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                              > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                              > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                              > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                              > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                              > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                              > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                              > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                              > > >
                              > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                              > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                              > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                              > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                              > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                              > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                              > > >
                              > > > Non ;)
                              > > >
                              > > > prometheus wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hello Janice,
                              > > > Yes, one would think that
                              > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                              > > > would, at least, attempt
                              > > > to live up to his PR, but
                              > > > that's not the case with
                              > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                              > > > out there by demonstrating
                              > > > his powers? It's not like
                              > > > he announced to the
                              > > > whole world that he was....
                              > > > oh wait, he did!
                              > > >
                              > > > That was a long time ago
                              > > > and he never did make
                              > > > any predictions as most
                              > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                              > > > made some predictions.
                              > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                              > > > haven't noticed and don't
                              > > > mine and that's why he
                              > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                              > > > to preform his responsibilities
                              > > > as a real prophet.
                              > > >
                              > > > Instead, Harold is very
                              > > > cautious of being too
                              > > > direct and understood.
                              > > > He'd rather have EKists
                              > > > fill-in the blanks and
                              > > > imagine what they want,
                              > > > need and expect until
                              > > > they go too far and have
                              > > > to have a behaviour
                              > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                              > > > That's why Klemp usually
                              > > > gives a very one dimensional
                              > > > perspective when he tells
                              > > > a story.
                              > > >
                              > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                              > > > why put too much
                              > > > effort into it! And, he
                              > > > figures that all he needs
                              > > > to do is the KISS thing
                              > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                              > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                              > > > will substitute Soul for
                              > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                              > > >
                              > > > It's really quite amazing
                              > > > how simple Klemp's
                              > > > redundant message is.
                              > > > If EKists would just compare
                              > > > Klemp's simple minded
                              > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                              > > > leaders one would have
                              > > > to wonder what they see
                              > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                              > > > but they just laugh at his
                              > > > quirkiness because he's
                              > > > operating on so many
                              > > > high planes of consciousness
                              > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                              > > >
                              > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                              > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                              > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                              > > > isn't even in the same ball
                              > > > park with the current Dali
                              > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                              > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                              > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                              > > > religion while Eckankar
                              > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                              > > > But, EKists need to compare
                              > > > the two leaders and how
                              > > > they present themselves
                              > > > and what they have to say.
                              > > >
                              > > > Will ECKists make the
                              > > > comparison? No, of course
                              > > > not! They won't even allow
                              > > > the door to be opened a
                              > > > crack because some light
                              > > > might get in and show
                              > > > them the Truth. They can't
                              > > > handle the Truth and
                              > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                              > > > It's much easier, besides,
                              > > > what would they replace
                              > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                              > > > responsibility to think for
                              > > > oneself and exercise free
                              > > > will. And, it would make
                              > > > life too lonely to lose all
                              > > > of those EK friends.
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                              > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                              > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                              > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                              > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                              > > > charlatan to me.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > The December 2012
                              > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                              > > > in the Ask the Master
                              > > > section are two interesting
                              > > > questions and answers.
                              > > >
                              > > > The first question has
                              > > > to do with Stress and
                              > > > how to overcome it.
                              > > >
                              > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                              > > > washy at best. He says
                              > > > that stress is "very
                              > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                              > > > stress is a good teacher."
                              > > >
                              > > > Klemp goes on to say
                              > > > that people can increase
                              > > > their tolerance to stress
                              > > > by eating healthy, getting
                              > > > enough sleep, and by
                              > > > "Reducing our overuse
                              > > > of electronic devices."
                              > > >
                              > > > In other words it seems
                              > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                              > > > roundabout way, to use
                              > > > moderation. After all,
                              > > > he's saying to reduce
                              > > > "overuse."
                              > > >
                              > > > Then, again, how does
                              > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                              > > > not use their computer
                              > > > 8 hours a day?
                              > > >
                              > > > The next question involves
                              > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                              > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                              > > > boy and two days later his
                              > > > mother translated (died).
                              > > > He indirectly asked if this
                              > > > new baby was his mother.
                              > > >
                              > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                              > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                              > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                              > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                              > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                              > > > anything at all can happen...
                              > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                              > > > son, everything is in accord
                              > > > with what is best for all around."
                              > > >
                              > > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              >
                            • iam999freedom
                              I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
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                                I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle. In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are naturally more happy.

                                If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

                                I AM.......HAPPY LOL

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                >
                                > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                >
                                > I AM
                                >
                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                                > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                > >
                                > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > From: prometheus_973
                                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >  
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                > > will ever become like, God,
                                > > our imagined or possible
                                > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                > >
                                > > But, it could be that the
                                > > universe(s) just happened
                                > > and that the remnants of
                                > > other life forms were spread
                                > > to this planet, and others,
                                > > via space rubble... from
                                > > destroyed civilizations
                                > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                > > intentional seeding by an
                                > > advanced race... which was,
                                > > itself, seeded by another
                                > > advanced race etc.
                                > >
                                > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                > > experiences we have
                                > > are the result of
                                > > interaction with the
                                > > quantum mechanical
                                > > field?
                                > >
                                > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                > > that what really matters
                                > > are relationships. It's our
                                > > relationships with others,
                                > > even strangers, that matter
                                > > most. This is how we really
                                > > learn and grow. Loving
                                > > relationships are valuable.
                                > >
                                > > Klemp, and others like
                                > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                > > have arrested development;
                                > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                > > and are even psychopathic.
                                > > They are incapable of learning,
                                > > or caring about others (are
                                > > unloving) and attempt to
                                > > impede social progress and
                                > > justice. They use the rest of
                                > > us for their own personal
                                > > greed and selfish desires.
                                > >
                                > > Then, again, this strife and
                                > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                > > created can make life interesting
                                > > and a challenge, although,
                                > > it can/will also be physically
                                > > and emotionally painful.
                                > >
                                > > But, having a regular life
                                > > without additional commitments
                                > > and involvements can also
                                > > offer rewarding experiences
                                > > and insights. We are never
                                > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                > > not sure how peace of any
                                > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                > > will ever happen in a world
                                > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                > >
                                > > One must care about everyone
                                > > and have caring relationships
                                > > with people in order for humankind
                                > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                > > I almost included animals, too,
                                > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                > > too.
                                > >
                                > > How can one really "care" about
                                > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                > > except to keep them away from
                                > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                > > people.
                                > >
                                > > When one thinks about it the
                                > > definition of what's "normal"
                                > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                > > seem to be more pathological
                                > > than the introverts don't you
                                > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                > > to force us introverts to become
                                > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                > > loves company I suppose or is
                                > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                > > is more intimidating.
                                > >
                                > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                > > to worship and viewed as being
                                > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                > > from "us" being involved in our
                                > > lives because of the differences
                                > > we see in one another. This is
                                > > why there are so many different
                                > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                > > and wrong.
                                > >
                                > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                > > use God as our scape goat.
                                > >
                                > > There are major flaws with all
                                > > of these religions and the so-called
                                > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                > > validation is that these various
                                > > people in history/myth that the
                                > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                > > to have said or done some nice,
                                > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                > > have given them credibility, because
                                > > it is believed and taught that
                                > > only Divine Intercession could
                                > > have been the source for their
                                > > Divine Inspiration.
                                > >
                                > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                > > today, who are not even followers
                                > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                > > of these major and minor religions.
                                > > Many of these people inspired
                                > > others by never giving up in time
                                > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                > > there weren't many other choices.
                                > > Even those who did give up and
                                > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                > > maintained their faith and this
                                > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                > > for religions there are an awful
                                > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                > > with unconditional love for the
                                > > master and you get a submissive
                                > > control pattern as your reward.
                                > > Buyer beware!
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                > > an experiment to see if we
                                > > are all capable of evolving
                                > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                > > Are we to become more than
                                > > merely a divine thought?
                                > > Maybe there is something
                                > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                > > analogy."
                                > >
                                > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                > >
                                > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                > >
                                > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                > >
                                > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                > >
                                > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                > >
                                > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                > >
                                > > I AM
                                > >
                                > > prometheus wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hello Non and All,
                                > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                > > > summary. I was exploring
                                > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                > > > and saw a reference to a
                                > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                > > >
                                > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                > > >
                                > > > This person is mentioned
                                > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                > > > Faith.
                                > > >
                                > > > Even when God seems to
                                > > > turn his back and: causes
                                > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                > > > and killed, one is to have
                                > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                > > > reward for keeping this
                                > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                > > > you to believe in him
                                > > > regardless of what pain
                                > > > he allows to befall you.
                                > > >
                                > > > One needs to project
                                > > > a sense of hope in order
                                > > > to better endure life, as
                                > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                > > >
                                > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                > > > challenges when you believe
                                > > > that God is on your side and
                                > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                > > >
                                > > > However, does God really
                                > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                > > >
                                > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                > > > an experiment to see if we
                                > > > are all capable of evolving
                                > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                > > > Are we to become more than
                                > > > merely a divine thought?
                                > > > Maybe there is something
                                > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                > > > analogy.
                                > > >
                                > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                > > > deserved the punishments as
                                > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                > > > most religions see everyday
                                > > > living and hardships as a test
                                > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                > > > to donate money to support
                                > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                > > > says and promises the same
                                > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                > > > hereafter.
                                > > >
                                > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                > > > admit.
                                > > >
                                > > > Well, got to go now....
                                > > > I just had some thoughts
                                > > > to share.
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                                > > >
                                > > "Non" wrote:
                                > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                > > >
                                > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                > > >
                                > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                > > >
                                > > > Non ;)
                                > > >
                                > > > prometheus wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hello Janice,
                                > > > Yes, one would think that
                                > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                > > > would, at least, attempt
                                > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                > > > that's not the case with
                                > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                > > > out there by demonstrating
                                > > > his powers? It's not like
                                > > > he announced to the
                                > > > whole world that he was....
                                > > > oh wait, he did!
                                > > >
                                > > > That was a long time ago
                                > > > and he never did make
                                > > > any predictions as most
                                > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                > > > made some predictions.
                                > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                > > > mine and that's why he
                                > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                > > > as a real prophet.
                                > > >
                                > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                > > > cautious of being too
                                > > > direct and understood.
                                > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                > > > imagine what they want,
                                > > > need and expect until
                                > > > they go too far and have
                                > > > to have a behaviour
                                > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                > > > perspective when he tells
                                > > > a story.
                                > > >
                                > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                > > > why put too much
                                > > > effort into it! And, he
                                > > > figures that all he needs
                                > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                > > > will substitute Soul for
                                > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                > > >
                                > > > It's really quite amazing
                                > > > how simple Klemp's
                                > > > redundant message is.
                                > > > If EKists would just compare
                                > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                > > > leaders one would have
                                > > > to wonder what they see
                                > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                > > > but they just laugh at his
                                > > > quirkiness because he's
                                > > > operating on so many
                                > > > high planes of consciousness
                                > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                > > >
                                > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                > > > park with the current Dali
                                > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                > > > religion while Eckankar
                                > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                > > > the two leaders and how
                                > > > they present themselves
                                > > > and what they have to say.
                                > > >
                                > > > Will ECKists make the
                                > > > comparison? No, of course
                                > > > not! They won't even allow
                                > > > the door to be opened a
                                > > > crack because some light
                                > > > might get in and show
                                > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                > > > handle the Truth and
                                > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                > > > what would they replace
                                > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                > > > responsibility to think for
                                > > > oneself and exercise free
                                > > > will. And, it would make
                                > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                > > > of those EK friends.
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                > > > charlatan to me.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > The December 2012
                                > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                > > > in the Ask the Master
                                > > > section are two interesting
                                > > > questions and answers.
                                > > >
                                > > > The first question has
                                > > > to do with Stress and
                                > > > how to overcome it.
                                > > >
                                > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                > > > washy at best. He says
                                > > > that stress is "very
                                > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                > > >
                                > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                > > > that people can increase
                                > > > their tolerance to stress
                                > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                > > > enough sleep, and by
                                > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                > > > of electronic devices."
                                > > >
                                > > > In other words it seems
                                > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                > > > roundabout way, to use
                                > > > moderation. After all,
                                > > > he's saying to reduce
                                > > > "overuse."
                                > > >
                                > > > Then, again, how does
                                > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                > > > not use their computer
                                > > > 8 hours a day?
                                > > >
                                > > > The next question involves
                                > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                > > > boy and two days later his
                                > > > mother translated (died).
                                > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                > > > new baby was his mother.
                                > > >
                                > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                > > > anything at all can happen...
                                > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                > > > son, everything is in accord
                                > > > with what is best for all around."
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                >
                              • tuza8
                                Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said she is 8 trillion
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
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                                  Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said
                                  she is 8 trillion initiate right now ,I dont believe. ,because from 1986 untill now just 27 years ,how can her achieve such level?is it possible once achieve that level in a short time?27 year?you are a master,so ,you know the answer. is it possible?pls tell me.
                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Tuza8,
                                  > Welcome to the site!
                                  > Thanks for the info
                                  > on, yet, another religious
                                  > scammer/fraud.
                                  >
                                  > I'm assuming that your
                                  > questions are rhetorical.
                                  >
                                  > I found some info on this
                                  > person and the following
                                  > video:
                                  >
                                  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
                                  >
                                  > Here's more info that that
                                  > I uncovered on Wikipedia:
                                  >
                                  > [Note the info within the (*****)
                                  > It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                                  > Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
                                  >
                                  > Quan Yin Method
                                  >
                                  > In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the 'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with which she is now associated.[10]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > *****
                                  > Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
                                  >
                                  > Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best, easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                                  > *****
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
                                  >
                                  > "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
                                  >
                                  > Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                                  > Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                                  > Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                                  > Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                                  > Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
                                  >
                                  > [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
                                  >
                                  > Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
                                  >
                                  > The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July 1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in 20 provinces and cities.[10]
                                  >
                                  > In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies of "heretical texts."[10]
                                  >
                                  > [edit]Criticism
                                  >
                                  > [edit]Environmental violations
                                  > In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400 and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned to establish a park on the site.[33]
                                  >
                                  > Yes, I read where she is
                                  > very popular in Taiwan
                                  > and that she has 20,000
                                  > followers world wide.
                                  >
                                  > She's half Vietnamese
                                  > and Chinese and became
                                  > a disciple of Thakar Singh
                                  > and studied Surat Shabd
                                  > Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                                  > Light and Sound), but
                                  > was, later, initiated by
                                  > a Buddhist monk.
                                  >
                                  > All those who follow
                                  > her are asked to become
                                  > Vegetarians and initiation
                                  > is free of charge. It doesn't
                                  > appear that there is a
                                  > Membership Donation/Fee
                                  > like with Ecklankar, but
                                  > she does make a lot of
                                  > money by selling books,
                                  > videos, etc. She also owns
                                  > Vegetarian and Vegan
                                  > Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                                  > has jewelry outlets, and
                                  > designs her own clothing
                                  > line.
                                  >
                                  > Her name, Ching Hai,
                                  > means "pure ocean."
                                  >
                                  > Google the "Quan Yin
                                  > Method" to find out
                                  > more about her daily
                                  > meditation of the inner
                                  > L & S.
                                  >
                                  > She's been described as a:
                                  > "tireless publicity seeker;
                                  > The Immaterial Girl... Part
                                  > Buddha, Part Madonna;
                                  > The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                                  > ... merchandizing mystic
                                  > from Taiwan."
                                  >
                                  > So, it seems that because
                                  > of her Buddhist connections
                                  > that she's associated with
                                  > the more familiar Buddhism,
                                  > however, she teaches the
                                  > less known (outside India)
                                  > Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                                  > ECKankar.
                                  >
                                  > Funny, though, that her
                                  > religion/enterprise had
                                  > a later start than ECKankar
                                  > but is making more money
                                  > and bringing in more people.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  > "tuza8" wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi prometheu,
                                  > I agree what you said,
                                  > they are some false master
                                  > in public.
                                  >
                                  > recently one femala master,
                                  > her name is master ching hai,
                                  > master ching hai claim herself
                                  > is 8 billion plane initiation level,
                                  >
                                  > do you believe it?
                                  >
                                  > in 1985 she become master
                                  > and began taught mediatation
                                  > on light and sound, whom said
                                  > come from higher world into
                                  > this lower world ,
                                  >
                                  > her also said come to this
                                  > lower world many times,
                                  > alway is a master for help
                                  > people.
                                  >
                                  > do you believe?
                                  >
                                  > prometheus_973" wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                  > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                  > > > will ever become like, God,
                                  > > > our imagined or possible
                                  > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                  > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > But, it could be that the
                                  > > > universe(s) just happened
                                  > > > and that the remnants of
                                  > > > other life forms were spread
                                  > > > to this planet, and others,
                                  > > > via space rubble... from
                                  > > > destroyed civilizations
                                  > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                  > > > intentional seeding by an
                                  > > > advanced race... which was,
                                  > > > itself, seeded by another
                                  > > > advanced race etc.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                  > > > experiences we have
                                  > > > are the result of
                                  > > > interaction with the
                                  > > > quantum mechanical
                                  > > > field?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                  > > > that what really matters
                                  > > > are relationships. It's our
                                  > > > relationships with others,
                                  > > > even strangers, that matter
                                  > > > most. This is how we really
                                  > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                  > > > relationships are valuable.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Klemp, and others like
                                  > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                  > > > have arrested development;
                                  > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                  > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                  > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                  > > > or caring about others (are
                                  > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                  > > > impede social progress and
                                  > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                  > > > us for their own personal
                                  > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                  > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                  > > > created can make life interesting
                                  > > > and a challenge, although,
                                  > > > it can/will also be physically
                                  > > > and emotionally painful.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > But, having a regular life
                                  > > > without additional commitments
                                  > > > and involvements can also
                                  > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                  > > > and insights. We are never
                                  > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                  > > > not sure how peace of any
                                  > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                  > > > will ever happen in a world
                                  > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > One must care about everyone
                                  > > > and have caring relationships
                                  > > > with people in order for humankind
                                  > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                  > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                  > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                  > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                  > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                  > > > too.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > How can one really "care" about
                                  > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                  > > > except to keep them away from
                                  > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                  > > > people.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > When one thinks about it the
                                  > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                  > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                  > > > seem to be more pathological
                                  > > > than the introverts don't you
                                  > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                  > > > to force us introverts to become
                                  > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                  > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                  > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                  > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                  > > > is more intimidating.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                  > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                  > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                  > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                  > > > lives because of the differences
                                  > > > we see in one another. This is
                                  > > > why there are so many different
                                  > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                  > > > and wrong.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                  > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                  > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                  > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                  > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                  > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                  > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > There are major flaws with all
                                  > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                  > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                  > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                  > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                  > > > validation is that these various
                                  > > > people in history/myth that the
                                  > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                  > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                  > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                  > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                  > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                  > > > have given them credibility, because
                                  > > > it is believed and taught that
                                  > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                  > > > have been the source for their
                                  > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                  > > > today, who are not even followers
                                  > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                  > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                  > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                  > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                  > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                  > > > Many of these people inspired
                                  > > > others by never giving up in time
                                  > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                  > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                  > > > Even those who did give up and
                                  > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                  > > > maintained their faith and this
                                  > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                  > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                  > > > for religions there are an awful
                                  > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                  > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                  > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                  > > > with unconditional love for the
                                  > > > master and you get a submissive
                                  > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                  > > > Buyer beware!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                  > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                  > > > an experiment to see if we
                                  > > > are all capable of evolving
                                  > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                  > > > Are we to become more than
                                  > > > merely a divine thought?
                                  > > > Maybe there is something
                                  > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                  > > > analogy."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                  > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                  > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                  > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                  > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                  > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                  > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                  > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                  > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                  > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                  > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                  > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                  > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                  > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                  > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                  > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                  > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                  > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                  > > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I AM
                                  > > >
                                  > > > prometheus wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Hello Non and All,
                                  > > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                  > > > > summary. I was exploring
                                  > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                  > > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                  > > > > and saw a reference to a
                                  > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > This person is mentioned
                                  > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                  > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                  > > > > Faith.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Even when God seems to
                                  > > > > turn his back and: causes
                                  > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                  > > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                  > > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                  > > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                  > > > > and killed, one is to have
                                  > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                  > > > > reward for keeping this
                                  > > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                  > > > > you to believe in him
                                  > > > > regardless of what pain
                                  > > > > he allows to befall you.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > One needs to project
                                  > > > > a sense of hope in order
                                  > > > > to better endure life, as
                                  > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                  > > > > challenges when you believe
                                  > > > > that God is on your side and
                                  > > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > However, does God really
                                  > > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                  > > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                  > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                  > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                  > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                  > > > > Are we to become more than
                                  > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                  > > > > Maybe there is something
                                  > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                  > > > > analogy.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                  > > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                  > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                  > > > > deserved the punishments as
                                  > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                  > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                  > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                  > > > > most religions see everyday
                                  > > > > living and hardships as a test
                                  > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                  > > > > to donate money to support
                                  > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                  > > > > says and promises the same
                                  > > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                  > > > > hereafter.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                  > > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                  > > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                  > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                  > > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                  > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                  > > > > admit.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Well, got to go now....
                                  > > > > I just had some thoughts
                                  > > > > to share.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Prometheus
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > "Non" wrote:
                                  > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                  > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                  > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                  > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                  > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                  > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                  > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                  > > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                  > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                  > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                  > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                  > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                  > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                  > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                  > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                  > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                  > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                  > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                  > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                  > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                  > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Non ;)
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > prometheus wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Hello Janice,
                                  > > > > Yes, one would think that
                                  > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                  > > > > would, at least, attempt
                                  > > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                  > > > > that's not the case with
                                  > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                  > > > > out there by demonstrating
                                  > > > > his powers? It's not like
                                  > > > > he announced to the
                                  > > > > whole world that he was....
                                  > > > > oh wait, he did!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > That was a long time ago
                                  > > > > and he never did make
                                  > > > > any predictions as most
                                  > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                  > > > > made some predictions.
                                  > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                  > > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                  > > > > mine and that's why he
                                  > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                  > > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                  > > > > as a real prophet.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                  > > > > cautious of being too
                                  > > > > direct and understood.
                                  > > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                  > > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                  > > > > imagine what they want,
                                  > > > > need and expect until
                                  > > > > they go too far and have
                                  > > > > to have a behaviour
                                  > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                  > > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                  > > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                  > > > > perspective when he tells
                                  > > > > a story.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                  > > > > why put too much
                                  > > > > effort into it! And, he
                                  > > > > figures that all he needs
                                  > > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                  > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                  > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                  > > > > will substitute Soul for
                                  > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > It's really quite amazing
                                  > > > > how simple Klemp's
                                  > > > > redundant message is.
                                  > > > > If EKists would just compare
                                  > > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                  > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                  > > > > leaders one would have
                                  > > > > to wonder what they see
                                  > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                  > > > > but they just laugh at his
                                  > > > > quirkiness because he's
                                  > > > > operating on so many
                                  > > > > high planes of consciousness
                                  > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                  > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                  > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                  > > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                  > > > > park with the current Dali
                                  > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                  > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                  > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                  > > > > religion while Eckankar
                                  > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                  > > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                  > > > > the two leaders and how
                                  > > > > they present themselves
                                  > > > > and what they have to say.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Will ECKists make the
                                  > > > > comparison? No, of course
                                  > > > > not! They won't even allow
                                  > > > > the door to be opened a
                                  > > > > crack because some light
                                  > > > > might get in and show
                                  > > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                  > > > > handle the Truth and
                                  > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                  > > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                  > > > > what would they replace
                                  > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                  > > > > responsibility to think for
                                  > > > > oneself and exercise free
                                  > > > > will. And, it would make
                                  > > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                  > > > > of those EK friends.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Prometheus
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                  > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                  > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                  > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                  > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                  > > > > charlatan to me.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The December 2012
                                  > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                  > > > > in the Ask the Master
                                  > > > > section are two interesting
                                  > > > > questions and answers.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The first question has
                                  > > > > to do with Stress and
                                  > > > > how to overcome it.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                  > > > > washy at best. He says
                                  > > > > that stress is "very
                                  > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                  > > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                  > > > > that people can increase
                                  > > > > their tolerance to stress
                                  > > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                  > > > > enough sleep, and by
                                  > > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                  > > > > of electronic devices."
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > In other words it seems
                                  > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                  > > > > roundabout way, to use
                                  > > > > moderation. After all,
                                  > > > > he's saying to reduce
                                  > > > > "overuse."
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Then, again, how does
                                  > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                  > > > > not use their computer
                                  > > > > 8 hours a day?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The next question involves
                                  > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                  > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                  > > > > boy and two days later his
                                  > > > > mother translated (died).
                                  > > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                  > > > > new baby was his mother.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                  > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                  > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                  > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                  > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                  > > > > anything at all can happen...
                                  > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                  > > > > son, everything is in accord
                                  > > > > with what is best for all around."
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Prometheus
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello I AM, Janice and All, I read something where a teacher asked a child what she wanted to be when she grew up and she said Happy! Of course, that was the
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                                    Hello I AM, Janice and All,
                                    I read something where a
                                    teacher asked a child what
                                    she wanted to be when she
                                    grew up and she said "Happy!"

                                    Of course, that was the wrong
                                    answer. Happiness is not taught
                                    in school. Yet, happiness is
                                    the end result of that which
                                    is sought by those who are
                                    taught how to think and work
                                    for a living.

                                    Personally, I'd rather the
                                    various states of happiness
                                    including contentment.

                                    And yet the EK teachings
                                    are completely Mental
                                    Plane via:

                                    The Books, like the Shariyats;
                                    CDs; DVDs; Internet Videos;
                                    Seminar Talks; the RESA
                                    Hierarchy; Guidelines; Zoas;
                                    Satsang Society and ESC
                                    Board business meetings;
                                    Workshop and Seminar
                                    planning etc., to name
                                    just a few of the Mental
                                    Plane activities and the
                                    basis for Eckankar's
                                    existence.

                                    Let's not forget those Mystic
                                    Worlds, H.I. Letters, IROs,
                                    EWS discussions, Membership
                                    Donations. These realities
                                    are not seen by ECKists
                                    because they are too willing
                                    to accept the propaganda
                                    than think for themselves
                                    and question authority.

                                    I read a quote by Frank Zappa
                                    "The difference between a
                                    religion and a cult is how
                                    much property they own."
                                    It was something like that.
                                    Look at the Mormon Church!

                                    Thus, IMO, Eckankar will
                                    always remain a cult. LOL!

                                    Prometheus

                                    iam freedom wrote:
                                    I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should
                                    not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
                                    In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy
                                    entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are
                                    naturally more happy.

                                    If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something
                                    like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists
                                    are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance
                                    their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to
                                    solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

                                    I AM.......HAPPY LOL

                                    "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                    regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                    meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                    >
                                    > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                    sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                    point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                    >
                                    > I AM
                                    >
                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see it
                                    when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                    there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                    talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                    happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                    something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where people
                                    there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were people
                                    from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town came
                                    together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does appear to
                                    make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there is a kind
                                    of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about. We
                                    hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good. But when
                                    people are hurt, there are always others
                                    > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                    doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                    still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                    willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                    motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part of
                                    what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                    everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                    by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                    strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                    broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                    takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                    the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.Â
                                    After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                    > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they hide
                                    from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to admit
                                    that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle
                                    like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge
                                    to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths have a lot
                                    of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to
                                    see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your heart can break but
                                    can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would rather know my heart will
                                    hurt than not to feel anything for others at all. Strong loving hearts will
                                    mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the
                                    journey. Loving hearts can and will share the pain. Eckankar doesn't do
                                    anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does that say about the lem and the
                                    other leaders of
                                    > > eckankar? I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can
                                    even see. Bless all the loving eckist tonight.Â
                                    > >
                                    prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                    > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                    > > will ever become like, God,
                                    > > our imagined or possible
                                    > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                    > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                    > >
                                    > > But, it could be that the
                                    > > universe(s) just happened
                                    > > and that the remnants of
                                    > > other life forms were spread
                                    > > to this planet, and others,
                                    > > via space rubble... from
                                    > > destroyed civilizations
                                    > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                    > > intentional seeding by an
                                    > > advanced race... which was,
                                    > > itself, seeded by another
                                    > > advanced race etc.
                                    > >
                                    > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                    > > experiences we have
                                    > > are the result of
                                    > > interaction with the
                                    > > quantum mechanical
                                    > > field?
                                    > >
                                    > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                    > > that what really matters
                                    > > are relationships. It's our
                                    > > relationships with others,
                                    > > even strangers, that matter
                                    > > most. This is how we really
                                    > > learn and grow. Loving
                                    > > relationships are valuable.
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp, and others like
                                    > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                    > > have arrested development;
                                    > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                    > > and are even psychopathic.
                                    > > They are incapable of learning,
                                    > > or caring about others (are
                                    > > unloving) and attempt to
                                    > > impede social progress and
                                    > > justice. They use the rest of
                                    > > us for their own personal
                                    > > greed and selfish desires.
                                    > >
                                    > > Then, again, this strife and
                                    > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                    > > created can make life interesting
                                    > > and a challenge, although,
                                    > > it can/will also be physically
                                    > > and emotionally painful.
                                    > >
                                    > > But, having a regular life
                                    > > without additional commitments
                                    > > and involvements can also
                                    > > offer rewarding experiences
                                    > > and insights. We are never
                                    > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                    > > not sure how peace of any
                                    > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                    > > will ever happen in a world
                                    > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                    > >
                                    > > One must care about everyone
                                    > > and have caring relationships
                                    > > with people in order for humankind
                                    > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                    > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                    > > I almost included animals, too,
                                    > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                    > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                    > > too.
                                    > >
                                    > > How can one really "care" about
                                    > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                    > > except to keep them away from
                                    > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                    > > people.
                                    > >
                                    > > When one thinks about it the
                                    > > definition of what's "normal"
                                    > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                    > > seem to be more pathological
                                    > > than the introverts don't you
                                    > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                    > > to force us introverts to become
                                    > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                    > > loves company I suppose or is
                                    > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                    > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                    > > is more intimidating.
                                    > >
                                    > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                    > > to worship and viewed as being
                                    > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                    > > from "us" being involved in our
                                    > > lives because of the differences
                                    > > we see in one another. This is
                                    > > why there are so many different
                                    > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                    > > and wrong.
                                    > >
                                    > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                    > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                    > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                    > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                    > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                    > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                    > > use God as our scape goat.
                                    > >
                                    > > There are major flaws with all
                                    > > of these religions and the so-called
                                    > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                    > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                    > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                    > > validation is that these various
                                    > > people in history/myth that the
                                    > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                    > > to have said or done some nice,
                                    > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                    > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                    > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                    > > have given them credibility, because
                                    > > it is believed and taught that
                                    > > only Divine Intercession could
                                    > > have been the source for their
                                    > > Divine Inspiration.
                                    > >
                                    > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                    > > today, who are not even followers
                                    > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                    > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                    > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                    > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                    > > of these major and minor religions.
                                    > > Many of these people inspired
                                    > > others by never giving up in time
                                    > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                    > > there weren't many other choices.
                                    > > Even those who did give up and
                                    > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                    > > maintained their faith and this
                                    > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                    > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                    > > for religions there are an awful
                                    > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                    > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                    > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                    > > with unconditional love for the
                                    > > master and you get a submissive
                                    > > control pattern as your reward.
                                    > > Buyer beware!
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                    > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                    > > an experiment to see if we
                                    > > are all capable of evolving
                                    > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                    > > Are we to become more than
                                    > > merely a divine thought?
                                    > > Maybe there is something
                                    > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                    > > analogy."
                                    > >
                                    > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                    > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                    > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                    > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
                                    misinterpreting
                                    > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                    > >
                                    > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                    > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                    > >
                                    > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                    > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
                                    event.
                                    > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
                                    person
                                    > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                    > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
                                    moving
                                    > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
                                    more
                                    > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                    > >
                                    > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                    > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                    > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
                                    expressions
                                    > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                    > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                    > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                    > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                    > >
                                    > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                    > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                    > >
                                    > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                    > >
                                    > > I AM
                                    > >
                                    > > prometheus wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hello Non and All,
                                    > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                    > > > summary. I was exploring
                                    > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                    > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                    > > > and saw a reference to a
                                    > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                    > > >
                                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                    > > >
                                    > > > This person is mentioned
                                    > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                    > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                    > > > Faith.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Even when God seems to
                                    > > > turn his back and: causes
                                    > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                    > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                    > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                    > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                    > > > and killed, one is to have
                                    > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                    > > > reward for keeping this
                                    > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                    > > > you to believe in him
                                    > > > regardless of what pain
                                    > > > he allows to befall you.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > One needs to project
                                    > > > a sense of hope in order
                                    > > > to better endure life, as
                                    > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                    > > > challenges when you believe
                                    > > > that God is on your side and
                                    > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > However, does God really
                                    > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                    > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                    > > > an experiment to see if we
                                    > > > are all capable of evolving
                                    > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                    > > > Are we to become more than
                                    > > > merely a divine thought?
                                    > > > Maybe there is something
                                    > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                    > > > analogy.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                    > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                    > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                    > > > deserved the punishments as
                                    > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                    > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                    > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                    > > > most religions see everyday
                                    > > > living and hardships as a test
                                    > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                    > > > to donate money to support
                                    > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                    > > > says and promises the same
                                    > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                    > > > hereafter.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                    > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                    > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                    > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                    > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                    > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                    > > > admit.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Well, got to go now....
                                    > > > I just had some thoughts
                                    > > > to share.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus
                                    > > >
                                    > > "Non" wrote:
                                    > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                    > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                    > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
                                    anything
                                    > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                    > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                    > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                    > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                    > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                    > > >
                                    > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                    > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                    > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                    > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
                                    Dahlia
                                    > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                    > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                    > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
                                    religion,
                                    > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
                                    Struggle
                                    > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                    > > >
                                    > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                    > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                    > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
                                    benign
                                    > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
                                    actually
                                    > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
                                    out
                                    > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Non ;)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > prometheus wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hello Janice,
                                    > > > Yes, one would think that
                                    > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                    > > > would, at least, attempt
                                    > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                    > > > that's not the case with
                                    > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                    > > > out there by demonstrating
                                    > > > his powers? It's not like
                                    > > > he announced to the
                                    > > > whole world that he was....
                                    > > > oh wait, he did!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > That was a long time ago
                                    > > > and he never did make
                                    > > > any predictions as most
                                    > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                    > > > made some predictions.
                                    > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                    > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                    > > > mine and that's why he
                                    > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                    > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                    > > > as a real prophet.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                    > > > cautious of being too
                                    > > > direct and understood.
                                    > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                    > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                    > > > imagine what they want,
                                    > > > need and expect until
                                    > > > they go too far and have
                                    > > > to have a behaviour
                                    > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                    > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                    > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                    > > > perspective when he tells
                                    > > > a story.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                    > > > why put too much
                                    > > > effort into it! And, he
                                    > > > figures that all he needs
                                    > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                    > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                    > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                    > > > will substitute Soul for
                                    > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It's really quite amazing
                                    > > > how simple Klemp's
                                    > > > redundant message is.
                                    > > > If EKists would just compare
                                    > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                    > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                    > > > leaders one would have
                                    > > > to wonder what they see
                                    > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                    > > > but they just laugh at his
                                    > > > quirkiness because he's
                                    > > > operating on so many
                                    > > > high planes of consciousness
                                    > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                    > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                    > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                    > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                    > > > park with the current Dali
                                    > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                    > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                    > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                    > > > religion while Eckankar
                                    > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                    > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                    > > > the two leaders and how
                                    > > > they present themselves
                                    > > > and what they have to say.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Will ECKists make the
                                    > > > comparison? No, of course
                                    > > > not! They won't even allow
                                    > > > the door to be opened a
                                    > > > crack because some light
                                    > > > might get in and show
                                    > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                    > > > handle the Truth and
                                    > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                    > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                    > > > what would they replace
                                    > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                    > > > responsibility to think for
                                    > > > oneself and exercise free
                                    > > > will. And, it would make
                                    > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                    > > > of those EK friends.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
                                    that
                                    > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
                                    say
                                    > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he
                                    is
                                    > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
                                    ask
                                    > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                    > > > charlatan to me.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The December 2012
                                    > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                    > > > in the Ask the Master
                                    > > > section are two interesting
                                    > > > questions and answers.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The first question has
                                    > > > to do with Stress and
                                    > > > how to overcome it.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                    > > > washy at best. He says
                                    > > > that stress is "very
                                    > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                    > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                    > > > that people can increase
                                    > > > their tolerance to stress
                                    > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                    > > > enough sleep, and by
                                    > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                    > > > of electronic devices."
                                    > > >
                                    > > > In other words it seems
                                    > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                    > > > roundabout way, to use
                                    > > > moderation. After all,
                                    > > > he's saying to reduce
                                    > > > "overuse."
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Then, again, how does
                                    > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                    > > > not use their computer
                                    > > > 8 hours a day?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The next question involves
                                    > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                    > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                    > > > boy and two days later his
                                    > > > mother translated (died).
                                    > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                    > > > new baby was his mother.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                    > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                    > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                    > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                    > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                    > > > anything at all can happen...
                                    > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                    > > > son, everything is in accord
                                    > > > with what is best for all around."
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus
                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hello Tusa8, Let me try to address your questions and concerns. tuza8 wrote: Hi, prometheus and all, Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai, I
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                                      Hello Tusa8,
                                      Let me try to address
                                      your questions and
                                      concerns.

                                      "tuza8" wrote:
                                      "Hi, prometheus and all,

                                      Actually, I am former disciple
                                      of master ching hai,

                                      I dont think she is fake master,"

                                      ***
                                      ME: Yes, she is a FAKE!
                                      You are more of a Master
                                      than she is! Why? Because
                                      you have more integrity,
                                      more honesty, more
                                      detachment, and fewer
                                      desires than Ching Hai.

                                      A true Master cannot be
                                      a greedy Capitalist who
                                      uses excuses and a slight
                                      of hand (magic) to turn
                                      appearances into illusion.
                                      She is not humble nor is
                                      she enlightened, especially,
                                      in this Field of Action.
                                      ***

                                      "but regarding her level,
                                      she said she is 8 trillion
                                      initiate right now,"

                                      ***
                                      ME: A True Master does
                                      not brag about being a
                                      Master nor disclose that
                                      they are a Master nor
                                      do they disclose their
                                      "initiations."
                                      ***

                                      "I dont believe. ,
                                      because from 1986 untill
                                      now just 27 years,

                                      how can her achieve such
                                      level?

                                      is it possible once achieve
                                      that level in a short time?
                                      27 year?"

                                      ***
                                      ME: These outrageous claims
                                      by Ching Hai are simply more
                                      proof that she is a fraud. Those
                                      who would believe such lies
                                      have been tested and have
                                      Passed her brainwashing test.

                                      Many cult leaders, via increments,
                                      will test the waters. They will
                                      make a subtle, but illogical,
                                      or exaggerated claim or statement
                                      and see what happens. If it
                                      goes unnoticed/unquestioned
                                      or unchallenged and is accepted,
                                      then, more and more lies and
                                      outrageous claims and orders
                                      can be made or handed out
                                      until the only people left are
                                      those glassy-eyed brainwashed
                                      and loyal fanatics who have
                                      stopped thinking for themselves.
                                      ***

                                      "you are a master, so,
                                      you know the answer.

                                      is it possible?
                                      pls tell me."

                                      ***
                                      ME: I AM No Master.
                                      Even if you were to
                                      dream of me I would
                                      not be a Master. You
                                      are your own Master!
                                      Dream of yourself as
                                      a Master. This, in Truth,
                                      is your secret identity.

                                      Anyway, I've told you.

                                      If you have ears to hear
                                      you will hear and, I hope,
                                      will understand my words
                                      and advice.

                                      I'm not perfect... but
                                      neither is God. LOL!

                                      Prometheus



                                      prometheus wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello Tuza8,
                                      > Welcome to the site!
                                      > Thanks for the info
                                      > on, yet, another religious
                                      > scammer/fraud.
                                      >
                                      > I'm assuming that your
                                      > questions are rhetorical.
                                      >
                                      > I found some info on this
                                      > person and the following
                                      > video:
                                      >
                                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
                                      >
                                      > Here's more info that that
                                      > I uncovered on Wikipedia:
                                      >
                                      > [Note the info within the (*****)
                                      > It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                                      > Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
                                      >
                                      > Quan Yin Method
                                      >
                                      > In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the
                                      'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin
                                      Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat
                                      tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she
                                      severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with
                                      which she is now associated.[10]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > *****
                                      > Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know
                                      it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was
                                      first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way
                                      of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to
                                      the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha
                                      nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that
                                      those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
                                      >
                                      > Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is
                                      purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best,
                                      easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves
                                      meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that
                                      she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged
                                      repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                                      > *****
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for
                                      initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of
                                      beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products
                                      gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
                                      >
                                      > "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin
                                      Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five
                                      precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
                                      >
                                      > Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                                      > Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                                      > Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                                      > Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                                      > Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
                                      >
                                      > [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
                                      >
                                      > Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is
                                      commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread
                                      without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset
                                      of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a
                                      list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it
                                      included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
                                      >
                                      > The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were
                                      fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious
                                      organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At
                                      the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July
                                      1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in
                                      20 provinces and cities.[10]
                                      >
                                      > In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment
                                      Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover
                                      to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise
                                      allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and
                                      business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices
                                      and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to
                                      recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies
                                      of "heretical texts."[10]
                                      >
                                      > [edit]Criticism
                                      >
                                      > [edit]Environmental violations
                                      > In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in
                                      Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally
                                      constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the
                                      pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400
                                      and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The
                                      private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by
                                      police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned
                                      to establish a park on the site.[33]
                                      >
                                      > Yes, I read where she is
                                      > very popular in Taiwan
                                      > and that she has 20,000
                                      > followers world wide.
                                      >
                                      > She's half Vietnamese
                                      > and Chinese and became
                                      > a disciple of Thakar Singh
                                      > and studied Surat Shabd
                                      > Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                                      > Light and Sound), but
                                      > was, later, initiated by
                                      > a Buddhist monk.
                                      >
                                      > All those who follow
                                      > her are asked to become
                                      > Vegetarians and initiation
                                      > is free of charge. It doesn't
                                      > appear that there is a
                                      > Membership Donation/Fee
                                      > like with Ecklankar, but
                                      > she does make a lot of
                                      > money by selling books,
                                      > videos, etc. She also owns
                                      > Vegetarian and Vegan
                                      > Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                                      > has jewelry outlets, and
                                      > designs her own clothing
                                      > line.
                                      >
                                      > Her name, Ching Hai,
                                      > means "pure ocean."
                                      >
                                      > Google the "Quan Yin
                                      > Method" to find out
                                      > more about her daily
                                      > meditation of the inner
                                      > L & S.
                                      >
                                      > She's been described as a:
                                      > "tireless publicity seeker;
                                      > The Immaterial Girl... Part
                                      > Buddha, Part Madonna;
                                      > The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                                      > ... merchandizing mystic
                                      > from Taiwan."
                                      >
                                      > So, it seems that because
                                      > of her Buddhist connections
                                      > that she's associated with
                                      > the more familiar Buddhism,
                                      > however, she teaches the
                                      > less known (outside India)
                                      > Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                                      > ECKankar.
                                      >
                                      > Funny, though, that her
                                      > religion/enterprise had
                                      > a later start than ECKankar
                                      > but is making more money
                                      > and bringing in more people.
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      > "tuza8" wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi prometheu,
                                      > I agree what you said,
                                      > they are some false master
                                      > in public.
                                      >
                                      > recently one femala master,
                                      > her name is master ching hai,
                                      > master ching hai claim herself
                                      > is 8 billion plane initiation level,
                                      >
                                      > do you believe it?
                                      >
                                      > in 1985 she become master
                                      > and began taught mediatation
                                      > on light and sound, whom said
                                      > come from higher world into
                                      > this lower world ,
                                      >
                                      > her also said come to this
                                      > lower world many times,
                                      > alway is a master for help
                                      > people.
                                      >
                                      > do you believe?
                                    • Janice Pfeiffer
                                      Hi I am, It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven t learned much
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                                        Hi I am,
                                        It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 

                                        --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

                                        From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM

                                         
                                        Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

                                        Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

                                        I AM

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                        > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                        > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                                        > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                        >
                                        > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > From: prometheus_973
                                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                        > I'm not so sure that humans
                                        > will ever become like, God,
                                        > our imagined or possible
                                        > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                        > not in any lifetime soon.
                                        >
                                        > But, it could be that the
                                        > universe(s) just happened
                                        > and that the remnants of
                                        > other life forms were spread
                                        > to this planet, and others,
                                        > via space rubble... from
                                        > destroyed civilizations
                                        > and planets. Or, was it an
                                        > intentional seeding by an
                                        > advanced race... which was,
                                        > itself, seeded by another
                                        > advanced race etc.
                                        >
                                        > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                        > experiences we have
                                        > are the result of
                                        > interaction with the
                                        > quantum mechanical
                                        > field?
                                        >
                                        > Anyway, it seems to me
                                        > that what really matters
                                        > are relationships. It's our
                                        > relationships with others,
                                        > even strangers, that matter
                                        > most. This is how we really
                                        > learn and grow. Loving
                                        > relationships are valuable.
                                        >
                                        > Klemp, and others like
                                        > him, are: liars; posers;
                                        > have arrested development;
                                        > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                        > and are even psychopathic.
                                        > They are incapable of learning,
                                        > or caring about others (are
                                        > unloving) and attempt to
                                        > impede social progress and
                                        > justice. They use the rest of
                                        > us for their own personal
                                        > greed and selfish desires.
                                        >
                                        > Then, again, this strife and
                                        > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                        > created can make life interesting
                                        > and a challenge, although,
                                        > it can/will also be physically
                                        > and emotionally painful.
                                        >
                                        > But, having a regular life
                                        > without additional commitments
                                        > and involvements can also
                                        > offer rewarding experiences
                                        > and insights. We are never
                                        > all that alone. However, I'm
                                        > not sure how peace of any
                                        > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                        > will ever happen in a world
                                        > controlled by sociopaths.
                                        >
                                        > One must care about everyone
                                        > and have caring relationships
                                        > with people in order for humankind
                                        > to advance and survive. To me,
                                        > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                        > I almost included animals, too,
                                        > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                        > include "caring" about them (all)
                                        > too.
                                        >
                                        > How can one really "care" about
                                        > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                        > except to keep them away from
                                        > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                        > people.
                                        >
                                        > When one thinks about it the
                                        > definition of what's "normal"
                                        > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                        > seem to be more pathological
                                        > than the introverts don't you
                                        > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                        > to force us introverts to become
                                        > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                        > loves company I suppose or is
                                        > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                        > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                        > is more intimidating.
                                        >
                                        > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                        > to worship and viewed as being
                                        > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                        > from "us" being involved in our
                                        > lives because of the differences
                                        > we see in one another. This is
                                        > why there are so many different
                                        > religious dogmas of what's right
                                        > and wrong.
                                        >
                                        > Therefore, the differences in the
                                        > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                        > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                        > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                        > nor take responsibility for our own
                                        > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                        > use God as our scape goat.
                                        >
                                        > There are major flaws with all
                                        > of these religions and the so-called
                                        > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                        > all hearsay and the only thing
                                        > that, supposedly, gives them
                                        > validation is that these various
                                        > people in history/myth that the
                                        > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                        > to have said or done some nice,
                                        > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                        > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                        > time (being ancient) seems to
                                        > have given them credibility, because
                                        > it is believed and taught that
                                        > only Divine Intercession could
                                        > have been the source for their
                                        > Divine Inspiration.
                                        >
                                        > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                        > today, who are not even followers
                                        > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                        > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                        > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                        > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                        > of these major and minor religions.
                                        > Many of these people inspired
                                        > others by never giving up in time
                                        > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                        > there weren't many other choices.
                                        > Even those who did give up and
                                        > had bad things befall them, still,
                                        > maintained their faith and this
                                        > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                        > or saints. If this is the standard
                                        > for religions there are an awful
                                        > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                        > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                        > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                        > with unconditional love for the
                                        > master and you get a submissive
                                        > control pattern as your reward.
                                        > Buyer beware!
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                        > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                        > an experiment to see if we
                                        > are all capable of evolving
                                        > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                        > Are we to become more than
                                        > merely a divine thought?
                                        > Maybe there is something
                                        > more to that piece of a mirror
                                        > analogy."
                                        >
                                        > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                        > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                        > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                        > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                        > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                        >
                                        > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                        > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                        >
                                        > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                        > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                        > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                        > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                        > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                        > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                        > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                        >
                                        > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                        > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                        > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                        > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                        > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                        > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                        > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                        >
                                        > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                        > that it would ever be necessary.
                                        >
                                        > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                        >
                                        > I AM
                                        >
                                        > prometheus wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello Non and All,
                                        > > Thanks for the insightful
                                        > > summary. I was exploring
                                        > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                        > > charismatic Christian churches
                                        > > and saw a reference to a
                                        > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                        > >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                        > >
                                        > > This person is mentioned
                                        > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                        > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                        > > Faith.
                                        > >
                                        > > Even when God seems to
                                        > > turn his back and: causes
                                        > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                        > > lost; cities attacked and
                                        > > overrun by your enemies;
                                        > > people brutalized, tortured
                                        > > and killed, one is to have
                                        > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                        > > reward for keeping this
                                        > > faith. God's ego needs
                                        > > you to believe in him
                                        > > regardless of what pain
                                        > > he allows to befall you.
                                        > >
                                        > > One needs to project
                                        > > a sense of hope in order
                                        > > to better endure life, as
                                        > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                        > >
                                        > > And, it's easier to face these
                                        > > challenges when you believe
                                        > > that God is on your side and
                                        > > not that of your oppressor.
                                        > >
                                        > > However, does God really
                                        > > take sides? It seems that God
                                        > > is/was created in man's image.
                                        > >
                                        > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                        > > an experiment to see if we
                                        > > are all capable of evolving
                                        > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                        > > Are we to become more than
                                        > > merely a divine thought?
                                        > > Maybe there is something
                                        > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                        > > analogy.
                                        > >
                                        > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                        > > has the belief that you (and your
                                        > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                        > > deserved the punishments as
                                        > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                        > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                        > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                        > > most religions see everyday
                                        > > living and hardships as a test
                                        > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                        > > to donate money to support
                                        > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                        > > says and promises the same
                                        > > or similar things in the imagined
                                        > > hereafter.
                                        > >
                                        > > Plus, each religion has always
                                        > > blamed the non-believers for
                                        > > the sins that they suffer under
                                        > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                        > > and Klemp is more like these
                                        > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                        > > admit.
                                        > >
                                        > > Well, got to go now....
                                        > > I just had some thoughts
                                        > > to share.
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        > "Non" wrote:
                                        > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                        > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                        > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                        > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                        > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                        > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                        > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                        > answers to ask the master etc.
                                        > >
                                        > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                        > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                        > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                        > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                        > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                        > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                        > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                        > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                        > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                        > >
                                        > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                        > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                        > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                        > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                        > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                        > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                        > >
                                        > > Non ;)
                                        > >
                                        > > prometheus wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello Janice,
                                        > > Yes, one would think that
                                        > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                        > > would, at least, attempt
                                        > > to live up to his PR, but
                                        > > that's not the case with
                                        > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                        > > out there by demonstrating
                                        > > his powers? It's not like
                                        > > he announced to the
                                        > > whole world that he was....
                                        > > oh wait, he did!
                                        > >
                                        > > That was a long time ago
                                        > > and he never did make
                                        > > any predictions as most
                                        > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                        > > made some predictions.
                                        > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                        > > haven't noticed and don't
                                        > > mine and that's why he
                                        > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                        > > to preform his responsibilities
                                        > > as a real prophet.
                                        > >
                                        > > Instead, Harold is very
                                        > > cautious of being too
                                        > > direct and understood.
                                        > > He'd rather have EKists
                                        > > fill-in the blanks and
                                        > > imagine what they want,
                                        > > need and expect until
                                        > > they go too far and have
                                        > > to have a behaviour
                                        > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                        > > That's why Klemp usually
                                        > > gives a very one dimensional
                                        > > perspective when he tells
                                        > > a story.
                                        > >
                                        > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                        > > why put too much
                                        > > effort into it! And, he
                                        > > figures that all he needs
                                        > > to do is the KISS thing
                                        > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                        > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                        > > will substitute Soul for
                                        > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                        > >
                                        > > It's really quite amazing
                                        > > how simple Klemp's
                                        > > redundant message is.
                                        > > If EKists would just compare
                                        > > Klemp's simple minded
                                        > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                        > > leaders one would have
                                        > > to wonder what they see
                                        > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                        > > but they just laugh at his
                                        > > quirkiness because he's
                                        > > operating on so many
                                        > > high planes of consciousness
                                        > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                        > >
                                        > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                        > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                        > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                        > > isn't even in the same ball
                                        > > park with the current Dali
                                        > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                        > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                        > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                        > > religion while Eckankar
                                        > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                        > > But, EKists need to compare
                                        > > the two leaders and how
                                        > > they present themselves
                                        > > and what they have to say.
                                        > >
                                        > > Will ECKists make the
                                        > > comparison? No, of course
                                        > > not! They won't even allow
                                        > > the door to be opened a
                                        > > crack because some light
                                        > > might get in and show
                                        > > them the Truth. They can't
                                        > > handle the Truth and
                                        > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                        > > It's much easier, besides,
                                        > > what would they replace
                                        > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                        > > responsibility to think for
                                        > > oneself and exercise free
                                        > > will. And, it would make
                                        > > life too lonely to lose all
                                        > > of those EK friends.
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                        > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                        > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                        > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                        > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                        > > charlatan to me.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > The December 2012
                                        > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                        > > in the Ask the Master
                                        > > section are two interesting
                                        > > questions and answers.
                                        > >
                                        > > The first question has
                                        > > to do with Stress and
                                        > > how to overcome it.
                                        > >
                                        > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                        > > washy at best. He says
                                        > > that stress is "very
                                        > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                        > > stress is a good teacher."
                                        > >
                                        > > Klemp goes on to say
                                        > > that people can increase
                                        > > their tolerance to stress
                                        > > by eating healthy, getting
                                        > > enough sleep, and by
                                        > > "Reducing our overuse
                                        > > of electronic devices."
                                        > >
                                        > > In other words it seems
                                        > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                        > > roundabout way, to use
                                        > > moderation. After all,
                                        > > he's saying to reduce
                                        > > "overuse."
                                        > >
                                        > > Then, again, how does
                                        > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                        > > not use their computer
                                        > > 8 hours a day?
                                        > >
                                        > > The next question involves
                                        > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                        > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                        > > boy and two days later his
                                        > > mother translated (died).
                                        > > He indirectly asked if this
                                        > > new baby was his mother.
                                        > >
                                        > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                        > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                        > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                        > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                        > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                        > > anything at all can happen...
                                        > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                        > > son, everything is in accord
                                        > > with what is best for all around."
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        >

                                      • Non
                                        Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                          Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.

                                          Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.

                                          Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.

                                          Non ;)

                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi I am,
                                          > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
                                          >
                                          > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: iam999freedom
                                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                          >
                                          > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                          >
                                          > I AM
                                          >
                                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
                                          > there are always others
                                          > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
                                          > busy hiding their
                                          > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
                                          > other leaders of
                                          > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                          > >
                                          > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > From: prometheus_973
                                          > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                          > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >  
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                          > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                          > > will ever become like, God,
                                          > > our imagined or possible
                                          > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                          > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                          > >
                                          > > But, it could be that the
                                          > > universe(s) just happened
                                          > > and that the remnants of
                                          > > other life forms were spread
                                          > > to this planet, and others,
                                          > > via space rubble... from
                                          > > destroyed civilizations
                                          > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                          > > intentional seeding by an
                                          > > advanced race... which was,
                                          > > itself, seeded by another
                                          > > advanced race etc.
                                          > >
                                          > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                          > > experiences we have
                                          > > are the result of
                                          > > interaction with the
                                          > > quantum mechanical
                                          > > field?
                                          > >
                                          > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                          > > that what really matters
                                          > > are relationships. It's our
                                          > > relationships with others,
                                          > > even strangers, that matter
                                          > > most. This is how we really
                                          > > learn and grow. Loving
                                          > > relationships are valuable.
                                          > >
                                          > > Klemp, and others like
                                          > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                          > > have arrested development;
                                          > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                          > > and are even psychopathic.
                                          > > They are incapable of learning,
                                          > > or caring about others (are
                                          > > unloving) and attempt to
                                          > > impede social progress and
                                          > > justice. They use the rest of
                                          > > us for their own personal
                                          > > greed and selfish desires.
                                          > >
                                          > > Then, again, this strife and
                                          > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                          > > created can make life interesting
                                          > > and a challenge, although,
                                          > > it can/will also be physically
                                          > > and emotionally painful.
                                          > >
                                          > > But, having a regular life
                                          > > without additional commitments
                                          > > and involvements can also
                                          > > offer rewarding experiences
                                          > > and insights. We are never
                                          > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                          > > not sure how peace of any
                                          > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                          > > will ever happen in a world
                                          > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                          > >
                                          > > One must care about everyone
                                          > > and have caring relationships
                                          > > with people in order for humankind
                                          > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                          > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                          > > I almost included animals, too,
                                          > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                          > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                          > > too.
                                          > >
                                          > > How can one really "care" about
                                          > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                          > > except to keep them away from
                                          > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                          > > people.
                                          > >
                                          > > When one thinks about it the
                                          > > definition of what's "normal"
                                          > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                          > > seem to be more pathological
                                          > > than the introverts don't you
                                          > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                          > > to force us introverts to become
                                          > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                          > > loves company I suppose or is
                                          > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                          > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                          > > is more intimidating.
                                          > >
                                          > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                          > > to worship and viewed as being
                                          > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                          > > from "us" being involved in our
                                          > > lives because of the differences
                                          > > we see in one another. This is
                                          > > why there are so many different
                                          > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                          > > and wrong.
                                          > >
                                          > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                          > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                          > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                          > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                          > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                          > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                          > > use God as our scape goat.
                                          > >
                                          > > There are major flaws with all
                                          > > of these religions and the so-called
                                          > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                          > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                          > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                          > > validation is that these various
                                          > > people in history/myth that the
                                          > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                          > > to have said or done some nice,
                                          > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                          > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                          > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                          > > have given them credibility, because
                                          > > it is believed and taught that
                                          > > only Divine Intercession could
                                          > > have been the source for their
                                          > > Divine Inspiration.
                                          > >
                                          > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                          > > today, who are not even followers
                                          > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                          > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                          > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                          > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                          > > of these major and minor religions.
                                          > > Many of these people inspired
                                          > > others by never giving up in time
                                          > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                          > > there weren't many other choices.
                                          > > Even those who did give up and
                                          > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                          > > maintained their faith and this
                                          > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                          > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                          > > for religions there are an awful
                                          > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                          > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                          > >
                                          > > Prometheus
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                          > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                          > > with unconditional love for the
                                          > > master and you get a submissive
                                          > > control pattern as your reward.
                                          > > Buyer beware!
                                          > >
                                          > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                          > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                          > > an experiment to see if we
                                          > > are all capable of evolving
                                          > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                          > > Are we to become more than
                                          > > merely a divine thought?
                                          > > Maybe there is something
                                          > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                          > > analogy."
                                          > >
                                          > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                          > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                          > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                          > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                          > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                          > >
                                          > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                          > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                          > >
                                          > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                          > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                          > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                          > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                          > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                          > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                          > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                          > >
                                          > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                          > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                          > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                          > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                          > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                          > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                          > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                          > >
                                          > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                          > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                          > >
                                          > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                          > >
                                          > > I AM
                                          > >
                                          > > prometheus wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hello Non and All,
                                          > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                          > > > summary. I was exploring
                                          > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                          > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                          > > > and saw a reference to a
                                          > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                          > > >
                                          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                          > > >
                                          > > > This person is mentioned
                                          > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                          > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                          > > > Faith.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Even when God seems to
                                          > > > turn his back and: causes
                                          > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                          > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                          > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                          > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                          > > > and killed, one is to have
                                          > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                          > > > reward for keeping this
                                          > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                          > > > you to believe in him
                                          > > > regardless of what pain
                                          > > > he allows to befall you.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > One needs to project
                                          > > > a sense of hope in order
                                          > > > to better endure life, as
                                          > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                          > > > challenges when you believe
                                          > > > that God is on your side and
                                          > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > However, does God really
                                          > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                          > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                          > > > an experiment to see if we
                                          > > > are all capable of evolving
                                          > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                          > > > Are we to become more than
                                          > > > merely a divine thought?
                                          > > > Maybe there is something
                                          > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                          > > > analogy.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                          > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                          > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                          > > > deserved the punishments as
                                          > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                          > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                          > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                          > > > most religions see everyday
                                          > > > living and hardships as a test
                                          > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                          > > > to donate money to support
                                          > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                          > > > says and promises the same
                                          > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                          > > > hereafter.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                          > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                          > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                          > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                          > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                          > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                          > > > admit.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Well, got to go now....
                                          > > > I just had some thoughts
                                          > > > to share.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus
                                          > > >
                                          > > "Non" wrote:
                                          > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                          > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                          > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                          > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                          > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                          > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                          > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                          > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                          > > >
                                          > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                          > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                          > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                          > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                          > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                          > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                          > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                          > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                          > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                          > > >
                                          > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                          > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                          > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                          > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                          > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                          > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Non ;)
                                          > > >
                                          > > > prometheus wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hello Janice,
                                          > > > Yes, one would think that
                                          > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                          > > > would, at least, attempt
                                          > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                          > > > that's not the case with
                                          > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                          > > > out there by demonstrating
                                          > > > his powers? It's not like
                                          > > > he announced to the
                                          > > > whole world that he was....
                                          > > > oh wait, he did!
                                          > > >
                                          > > > That was a long time ago
                                          > > > and he never did make
                                          > > > any predictions as most
                                          > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                          > > > made some predictions.
                                          > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                          > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                          > > > mine and that's why he
                                          > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                          > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                          > > > as a real prophet.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                          > > > cautious of being too
                                          > > > direct and understood.
                                          > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                          > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                          > > > imagine what they want,
                                          > > > need and expect until
                                          > > > they go too far and have
                                          > > > to have a behaviour
                                          > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                          > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                          > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                          > > > perspective when he tells
                                          > > > a story.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                          > > > why put too much
                                          > > > effort into it! And, he
                                          > > > figures that all he needs
                                          > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                          > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                          > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                          > > > will substitute Soul for
                                          > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                          > > >
                                          > > > It's really quite amazing
                                          > > > how simple Klemp's
                                          > > > redundant message is.
                                          > > > If EKists would just compare
                                          > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                          > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                          > > > leaders one would have
                                          > > > to wonder what they see
                                          > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                          > > > but they just laugh at his
                                          > > > quirkiness because he's
                                          > > > operating on so many
                                          > > > high planes of consciousness
                                          > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                          > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                          > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                          > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                          > > > park with the current Dali
                                          > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                          > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                          > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                          > > > religion while Eckankar
                                          > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                          > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                          > > > the two leaders and how
                                          > > > they present themselves
                                          > > > and what they have to say.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Will ECKists make the
                                          > > > comparison? No, of course
                                          > > > not! They won't even allow
                                          > > > the door to be opened a
                                          > > > crack because some light
                                          > > > might get in and show
                                          > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                          > > > handle the Truth and
                                          > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                          > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                          > > > what would they replace
                                          > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                          > > > responsibility to think for
                                          > > > oneself and exercise free
                                          > > > will. And, it would make
                                          > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                          > > > of those EK friends.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                          > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                          > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                          > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                          > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                          > > > charlatan to me.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The December 2012
                                          > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                          > > > in the Ask the Master
                                          > > > section are two interesting
                                          > > > questions and answers.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The first question has
                                          > > > to do with Stress and
                                          > > > how to overcome it.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                          > > > washy at best. He says
                                          > > > that stress is "very
                                          > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                          > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                          > > > that people can increase
                                          > > > their tolerance to stress
                                          > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                          > > > enough sleep, and by
                                          > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                          > > > of electronic devices."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In other words it seems
                                          > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                          > > > roundabout way, to use
                                          > > > moderation. After all,
                                          > > > he's saying to reduce
                                          > > > "overuse."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Then, again, how does
                                          > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                          > > > not use their computer
                                          > > > 8 hours a day?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The next question involves
                                          > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                          > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                          > > > boy and two days later his
                                          > > > mother translated (died).
                                          > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                          > > > new baby was his mother.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                          > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                          > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                          > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                          > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                          > > > anything at all can happen...
                                          > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                          > > > son, everything is in accord
                                          > > > with what is best for all around."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • etznab18
                                          However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It states that the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                            "However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It states that "the spiritual workers created man and placed
                                            within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul."

                                            ***

                                            Then the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul; and man became like the living gods of the spirit worlds with intellectual powers, physical strength, and Soul. ... ." - S.K.S., Book One, p. 44

                                            Compare with:

                                            "The Seventh Command: And when this was done, the Seventh Intellect said: 'Let us make man after our own fashion and let us endow him with powers to rule this earth.' Then the Seven-Headed Intellect, The Creator of All Things throughout the Universe, created man and placed within his body a living, imperishable spirit, and man became like the Creator in intellectual power."

                                            http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ssm/ssm07.htm

                                            and (this is the older version)

                                            "Then Narayana, the Seven-headed Intellect, the Creator of all things throughout the universe, created man, and placed within his body a living, imperishable spirit, and man became like Narayana in intellectual power. Then was creation complete."

                                            http://campbellmgold.com/archive_esoteric/lost_continent_mu_churchward_1931.pdf

                                            Judging by the number of other similarities between writings of Twitchell and Churchward (concerning creation and Lemuria, etc.) I wonder if that quote by Twitchell was not entirely original. In fact, I believe Churchward's first book (Lost Continent of Mu) was part of the recommended reading list mentioned in LTG.

                                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hello I Am,
                                            > Okay, let me give it
                                            > a shot and use some
                                            > excerpts etc.
                                            >
                                            > HK's talking about
                                            > psychological studies
                                            > using identical twins
                                            > (not conjoined) that
                                            > were separated soon
                                            > after birth. They grew
                                            > up elsewhere and had
                                            > different influences
                                            > but dressed the same
                                            > and had the same type
                                            > of dog and gave the
                                            > dog the same name etc.,
                                            > etc.
                                            >
                                            > Thus, it seems that
                                            > Free Will relies upon
                                            > genetics (nature) more
                                            > than it does upon nurture,
                                            > although, HK says that
                                            > Yogi Berra stated that
                                            > "in theory, practice doesn't
                                            > matter; in practice, it does."
                                            >
                                            > BTW- According to Klemp
                                            > "The Lords of Karma have
                                            > selected a body with the
                                            > appropriate genes for each
                                            > student."
                                            >
                                            > However, HK has somewhat
                                            > contradicted what is in CH.
                                            > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                                            > that "the spiritual workers
                                            > created man and placed
                                            > within him a living imperishable
                                            > Spirit, called Soul."
                                            >
                                            > There is no other mention
                                            > of these "spiritual workers."
                                            >
                                            > Anywho-
                                            >
                                            > HK is so clever the way
                                            > he'll twist a quote to add
                                            > even more confusion to
                                            > his message of absolute
                                            > servitude and obedience.
                                            >
                                            > I counted HK using "But"
                                            > four times. In an old H.I.
                                            > Letter he said never to
                                            > use "But" with one another
                                            > and that it was a nail in
                                            > the coffin of invention and
                                            > took away from what was
                                            > previously said.
                                            >
                                            > HK:
                                            > "BUT they dug in their heels
                                            > at the finding that such twins'
                                            > IQs were nearly as similar as
                                            > their heights."
                                            >
                                            > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                                            > set. A kind owner may let it out
                                            > into the room on occasion. BUT
                                            > it is still in a house."
                                            >
                                            > "Researchers, too, can advance
                                            > only to a fixed point in their studies
                                            > of what elements make up a whole
                                            > individual. BUT they do not have
                                            > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                                            > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                                            >
                                            > Funny that Klemp states that he
                                            > holds "a magical key" to control
                                            > others like a Black Magician would.
                                            >
                                            > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                                            > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                                            > must have the right kind and amount
                                            > of daily experiences."
                                            >
                                            > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                                            > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                                            > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                                            > the "right kind and amount of daily
                                            > experiences."
                                            >
                                            > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                                            > doesn't like science and psychologists
                                            > since getting locked up in an asylum
                                            > and having to "play-the-game" to
                                            > be released early.
                                            >
                                            > HK states that "Real free will rests
                                            > entirely on trusting the Master's
                                            > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                                            > many choices to make in all things
                                            > human and divine."
                                            >
                                            > In other words do as I say not
                                            > as I do and there is no such
                                            > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                                            > Does that kind sound like Cult
                                            > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                                            > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                                            > that "He gives suggestions" and
                                            > "seldom does he issue directives...
                                            > True Free Will of an individual
                                            > stands upon the Mahanta's
                                            > guidance."
                                            >
                                            > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                                            > as he speaks from experience:
                                            > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                                            > ingrained ideas about patterns
                                            > against them. A subject thinks
                                            > he has the quick mind and eyes
                                            > to catch a Magician in an act,
                                            > even while he is being unburdened
                                            > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                                            > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                                            > played upon people by illusion."
                                            >
                                            > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                                            > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                                            > exercises," but write those snail-
                                            > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                                            > thinking and so I can use those
                                            > stories for my next book.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > iam999freedom wrote:
                                            > Hi Prometheus,
                                            >
                                            > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                                            > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                                            > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                                            >
                                            > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                                            > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                                            > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                                            > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                                            > different character than the other."
                                            >
                                            > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                                            > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next morning
                                            > on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                                            >
                                            > I still have yet to receive a response.
                                            >
                                            > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic Note
                                            > that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks,
                                            > I AM
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > prometheus_wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > The December 2012
                                            > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                            > > in the Ask the Master
                                            > > section are two interesting
                                            > > questions and answers.
                                            > >
                                            > > The first question has
                                            > > to do with Stress and
                                            > > how to overcome it.
                                            > >
                                            > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                            > > washy at best. He says
                                            > > that stress is "very
                                            > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                            > > stress is a good teacher."
                                            > >
                                            > > Klemp goes on to say
                                            > > that people increase
                                            > > their tolerance to stress
                                            > > by eating healthy, getting
                                            > > enough sleep, and by
                                            > > "Reducing our overuse
                                            > > of electronic devices."
                                            > >
                                            > > In other words it seems
                                            > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                            > > roundabout way, to use
                                            > > moderation. After all,
                                            > > he's saying to reduce
                                            > > "overuse."
                                            > >
                                            > > Then, again, how does
                                            > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                            > > not use their computer
                                            > > 8 hours a day?
                                            > >
                                            > > The next question involves
                                            > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                            > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                            > > boy and two days later his
                                            > > mother translated (died).
                                            > > He indirectly asked if this
                                            > > new baby was his mother.
                                            > >
                                            > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                            > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                            > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                            > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                            > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                            > > anything at all can happen...
                                            > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                            > > son, everything is in accord
                                            > > with what is best for all around."
                                            > >
                                            > > Prometheus
                                            >
                                          • etznab18
                                            Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                              Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a number of things. Another study suggested that "even one's political leanings are largely shaped by genes (not by 'free will,' or choice.)"

                                              OK? Got the picture now? Combine that with the first paragraph of Harold's article and with the other paragraphs that mentioned free will, illusion and influence of genes.

                                              My impression from the article was that genes were considered to have great influence upon people's behaviors, even moreso than upbringing, or life's experiences.

                                              Now, I've seen studies where twins grow up in different environments where one gets cancer and the other doesn't. Also, I think there is a lot of "dark space" about the physiology of genes (just like there is a lot of "dark space" in the universe ... the majority, some think.) Genes, IMO, don't matter so much as whether the genes are "turned on" or not. There are lots and lots of genes (or DNA) that remain inactive I think, what they call junk DNA, and my guess is that life experiences and upbringing DO have an effect on shaping individual character. Even with identical twins.

                                              The idea that genes have such a great influence on behavior is just relative to any number of other things, IMO.

                                              I had to wonder, was Harold speaking about Eugenics? or something similar?

                                              Consider the following:

                                              Doubts on genetic mutation triggered by inheritance

                                              "The first major challenge to conventional eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was made in 1915 by Thomas Hunt Morgan, who demonstrated the event of genetic mutation occurring outside of inheritance involving the discovery of the hatching of a fruit fly with white eyes from a family and ancestry of the red-eyed Drosophila melanogaster species of fruit fly.[36] Morgan claimed that this demonstrated that major genetic changes occurred outside of inheritance and that the concept of eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was, to some extent, not completely scientifically accurate.[36]

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Doubts_on_genetic_mutation_triggered_by_inheritance

                                              "A gene is a molecular unit of heredity of a living organism. It is a name given to some stretches of DNA and RNA that code for a polypeptide or for an RNA chain that has a function in the organism. [... .]"

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes#Changing_concept

                                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hello I AM and All,
                                              > Actually Klemp did cite some
                                              > studies and I Googled it myself
                                              > and saw that there is proof that
                                              > identical twins share similarities.
                                              > The mirrored behaviors could
                                              > be genetical with brain frequencies
                                              > and brain function being the
                                              > same due to a quantum mechanical
                                              > influence. I threw that last one
                                              > in on my own, but who knows?
                                              >
                                              > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
                                              > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
                                              > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
                                              > use the Lords of Karma ruse
                                              > which, BTW, is not solely owned
                                              > by Eckankar.
                                              >
                                              > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
                                              > to get new members by promising
                                              > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
                                              > Liberation" but then he switches
                                              > it up and demands (suggests)
                                              > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
                                              > Team participation in order to,
                                              > possibly, get promoted and receive
                                              > "Spiritual Rewards."
                                              >
                                              > It is funny that Klemp claims to
                                              > take "Free Will" away from Souls
                                              > who join Eckankar and follow him.
                                              > Does this mean that those Souls
                                              > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
                                              > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
                                              >
                                              > Prometheus
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > iam999freedom wrote:
                                              > Hi Prometheus,
                                              > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
                                              > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
                                              > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
                                              > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
                                              > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
                                              > the environment.
                                              >
                                              > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
                                              > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
                                              > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
                                              >
                                              > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
                                              > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
                                              > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
                                              >
                                              > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
                                              > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
                                              > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
                                              > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
                                              >
                                              > I AM
                                              >
                                              > prometheus_973" wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hello I Am,
                                              > > Okay, let me give it
                                              > > a shot and use some
                                              > > excerpts etc.
                                              > >
                                              > > HK's talking about
                                              > > psychological studies
                                              > > using identical twins
                                              > > (not conjoined) that
                                              > > were separated soon
                                              > > after birth. They grew
                                              > > up elsewhere and had
                                              > > different influences
                                              > > but dressed the same
                                              > > and had the same type
                                              > > of dog and gave the
                                              > > dog the same name etc.,
                                              > > etc.
                                              > >
                                              > > Thus, it seems that
                                              > > Free Will relies upon
                                              > > genetics (nature) more
                                              > > than it does upon nurture,
                                              > > although, HK says that
                                              > > Yogi Berra stated that
                                              > > "in theory, practice doesn't
                                              > > matter; in practice, it does."
                                              > >
                                              > > BTW- According to Klemp
                                              > > "The Lords of Karma have
                                              > > selected a body with the
                                              > > appropriate genes for each
                                              > > student."
                                              > >
                                              > > However, HK has somewhat
                                              > > contradicted what is in CH.
                                              > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                                              > > that "the spiritual workers
                                              > > created man and placed
                                              > > within him a living imperishable
                                              > > Spirit, called Soul."
                                              > >
                                              > > There is no other mention
                                              > > of these "spiritual workers."
                                              > >
                                              > > Anywho-
                                              > >
                                              > > HK is so clever the way
                                              > > he'll twist a quote to add
                                              > > even more confusion to
                                              > > his message of absolute
                                              > > servitude and obedience.
                                              > >
                                              > > I counted HK using "But"
                                              > > four times. In an old H.I.
                                              > > Letter he said never to
                                              > > use "But" with one another
                                              > > and that it was a nail in
                                              > > the coffin of invention and
                                              > > took away from what was
                                              > > previously said.
                                              > >
                                              > > HK:
                                              > > "BUT they dug in their heels
                                              > > at the finding that such twins'
                                              > > IQs were nearly as similar as
                                              > > their heights."
                                              > >
                                              > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                                              > > set. A kind owner may let it out
                                              > > into the room on occasion. BUT
                                              > > it is still in a house."
                                              > >
                                              > > "Researchers, too, can advance
                                              > > only to a fixed point in their studies
                                              > > of what elements make up a whole
                                              > > individual. BUT they do not have
                                              > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                                              > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                                              > >
                                              > > Funny that Klemp states that he
                                              > > holds "a magical key" to control
                                              > > others like a Black Magician would.
                                              > >
                                              > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                                              > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                                              > > must have the right kind and amount
                                              > > of daily experiences."
                                              > >
                                              > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                                              > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                                              > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                                              > > the "right kind and amount of daily
                                              > > experiences."
                                              > >
                                              > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                                              > > doesn't like science and psychologists
                                              > > since getting locked up in an asylum
                                              > > and having to "play-the-game" to
                                              > > be released early.
                                              > >
                                              > > HK states that "Real free will rests
                                              > > entirely on trusting the Master's
                                              > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                                              > > many choices to make in all things
                                              > > human and divine."
                                              > >
                                              > > In other words do as I say not
                                              > > as I do and there is no such
                                              > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                                              > > Does that kind sound like Cult
                                              > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                                              > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                                              > > that "He gives suggestions" and
                                              > > "seldom does he issue directives...
                                              > > True Free Will of an individual
                                              > > stands upon the Mahanta's
                                              > > guidance."
                                              > >
                                              > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                                              > > as he speaks from experience:
                                              > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                                              > > ingrained ideas about patterns
                                              > > against them. A subject thinks
                                              > > he has the quick mind and eyes
                                              > > to catch a Magician in an act,
                                              > > even while he is being unburdened
                                              > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                                              > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                                              > > played upon people by illusion."
                                              > >
                                              > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                                              > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                                              > > exercises," but write those snail-
                                              > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                                              > > thinking and so I can use those
                                              > > stories for my next book.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > iam999freedom wrote:
                                              > > Hi Prometheus,
                                              > >
                                              > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                                              > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                                              > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                                              > >
                                              > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                                              > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                                              > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                                              > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                                              > > different character than the other."
                                              > >
                                              > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                                              > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
                                              > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                                              > >
                                              > > I still have yet to receive a response.
                                              > >
                                              > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
                                              > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                                              > >
                                              > > Thanks,
                                              > > I AM
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > prometheus_wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > The December 2012
                                              > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                              > > > in the Ask the Master
                                              > > > section are two interesting
                                              > > > questions and answers.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > The first question has
                                              > > > to do with Stress and
                                              > > > how to overcome it.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                              > > > washy at best. He says
                                              > > > that stress is "very
                                              > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                              > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                              > > > that people increase
                                              > > > their tolerance to stress
                                              > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                              > > > enough sleep, and by
                                              > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                              > > > of electronic devices."
                                              > > >
                                              > > > In other words it seems
                                              > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                              > > > roundabout way, to use
                                              > > > moderation. After all,
                                              > > > he's saying to reduce
                                              > > > "overuse."
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Then, again, how does
                                              > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                              > > > not use their computer
                                              > > > 8 hours a day?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > The next question involves
                                              > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                              > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                              > > > boy and two days later his
                                              > > > mother translated (died).
                                              > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                              > > > new baby was his mother.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                              > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                              > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                              > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                              > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                              > > > anything at all can happen...
                                              > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                              > > > son, everything is in accord
                                              > > > with what is best for all around."
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Prometheus
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • Non
                                              Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 12, 2013
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                                                Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated as far as religion may be growing. :)

                                                Non ;)

                                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.
                                                >
                                                > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.
                                                >
                                                > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                                >
                                                > Non ;)
                                                >
                                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hi I am,
                                                > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
                                                > >
                                                > > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > From: iam999freedom
                                                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >  
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                                > >
                                                > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                                > >
                                                > > I AM
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
                                                > > there are always others
                                                > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
                                                > > busy hiding their
                                                > > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
                                                > > other leaders of
                                                > > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                                > > >
                                                > > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > From: prometheus_973
                                                > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                                > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >  
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                > > > will ever become like, God,
                                                > > > our imagined or possible
                                                > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > But, it could be that the
                                                > > > universe(s) just happened
                                                > > > and that the remnants of
                                                > > > other life forms were spread
                                                > > > to this planet, and others,
                                                > > > via space rubble... from
                                                > > > destroyed civilizations
                                                > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                > > > intentional seeding by an
                                                > > > advanced race... which was,
                                                > > > itself, seeded by another
                                                > > > advanced race etc.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                > > > experiences we have
                                                > > > are the result of
                                                > > > interaction with the
                                                > > > quantum mechanical
                                                > > > field?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                > > > that what really matters
                                                > > > are relationships. It's our
                                                > > > relationships with others,
                                                > > > even strangers, that matter
                                                > > > most. This is how we really
                                                > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                                > > > relationships are valuable.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Klemp, and others like
                                                > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                > > > have arrested development;
                                                > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                                > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                                > > > or caring about others (are
                                                > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                                > > > impede social progress and
                                                > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                                > > > us for their own personal
                                                > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                                > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                > > > created can make life interesting
                                                > > > and a challenge, although,
                                                > > > it can/will also be physically
                                                > > > and emotionally painful.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > But, having a regular life
                                                > > > without additional commitments
                                                > > > and involvements can also
                                                > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                                > > > and insights. We are never
                                                > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                > > > not sure how peace of any
                                                > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                > > > will ever happen in a world
                                                > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > One must care about everyone
                                                > > > and have caring relationships
                                                > > > with people in order for humankind
                                                > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                                > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                > > > too.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > How can one really "care" about
                                                > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                > > > except to keep them away from
                                                > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                > > > people.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > When one thinks about it the
                                                > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                                > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                > > > seem to be more pathological
                                                > > > than the introverts don't you
                                                > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                > > > to force us introverts to become
                                                > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                                > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                > > > is more intimidating.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                                > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                                > > > lives because of the differences
                                                > > > we see in one another. This is
                                                > > > why there are so many different
                                                > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                > > > and wrong.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > There are major flaws with all
                                                > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                                > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                > > > validation is that these various
                                                > > > people in history/myth that the
                                                > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                                > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                > > > have given them credibility, because
                                                > > > it is believed and taught that
                                                > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                                > > > have been the source for their
                                                > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                > > > today, who are not even followers
                                                > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                                > > > Many of these people inspired
                                                > > > others by never giving up in time
                                                > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                                > > > Even those who did give up and
                                                > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                > > > maintained their faith and this
                                                > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                > > > for religions there are an awful
                                                > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Prometheus
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                > > > with unconditional love for the
                                                > > > master and you get a submissive
                                                > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                                > > > Buyer beware!
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                > > > Are we to become more than
                                                > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                > > > Maybe there is something
                                                > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                > > > analogy."
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                                > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                                > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                                > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                                > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                                > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                                > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                                > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                                > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                                > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                                > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                                > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                                > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                                > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                                > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                                > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                                > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                                > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                                > > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I AM
                                                > > >
                                                > > > prometheus wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Hello Non and All,
                                                > > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                                > > > > summary. I was exploring
                                                > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                                > > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                                > > > > and saw a reference to a
                                                > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > This person is mentioned
                                                > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                                > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                                > > > > Faith.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Even when God seems to
                                                > > > > turn his back and: causes
                                                > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                                > > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                                > > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                                > > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                                > > > > and killed, one is to have
                                                > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                                > > > > reward for keeping this
                                                > > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                                > > > > you to believe in him
                                                > > > > regardless of what pain
                                                > > > > he allows to befall you.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > One needs to project
                                                > > > > a sense of hope in order
                                                > > > > to better endure life, as
                                                > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                                > > > > challenges when you believe
                                                > > > > that God is on your side and
                                                > > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > However, does God really
                                                > > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                                > > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                > > > > Are we to become more than
                                                > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                > > > > Maybe there is something
                                                > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                > > > > analogy.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                                > > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                                > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                                > > > > deserved the punishments as
                                                > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                                > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                                > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                                > > > > most religions see everyday
                                                > > > > living and hardships as a test
                                                > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                                > > > > to donate money to support
                                                > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                                > > > > says and promises the same
                                                > > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                                > > > > hereafter.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                                > > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                                > > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                                > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                                > > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                                > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                                > > > > admit.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Well, got to go now....
                                                > > > > I just had some thoughts
                                                > > > > to share.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Prometheus
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > "Non" wrote:
                                                > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                                > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                                > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                                > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                                > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                                > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                                > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                                > > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                                > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                                > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                                > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                                > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                                > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                                > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                                > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                                > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                                > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                                > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                                > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                                > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                                > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Non ;)
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > prometheus wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Hello Janice,
                                                > > > > Yes, one would think that
                                                > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                                > > > > would, at least, attempt
                                                > > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                                > > > > that's not the case with
                                                > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                                > > > > out there by demonstrating
                                                > > > > his powers? It's not like
                                                > > > > he announced to the
                                                > > > > whole world that he was....
                                                > > > > oh wait, he did!
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > That was a long time ago
                                                > > > > and he never did make
                                                > > > > any predictions as most
                                                > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                                > > > > made some predictions.
                                                > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                                > > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                                > > > > mine and that's why he
                                                > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                                > > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                                > > > > as a real prophet.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                                > > > > cautious of being too
                                                > > > > direct and understood.
                                                > > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                                > > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                                > > > > imagine what they want,
                                                > > > > need and expect until
                                                > > > > they go too far and have
                                                > > > > to have a behaviour
                                                > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                                > > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                                > > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                                > > > > perspective when he tells
                                                > > > > a story.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                                > > > > why put too much
                                                > > > > effort into it! And, he
                                                > > > > figures that all he needs
                                                > > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                                > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                                > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                                > > > > will substitute Soul for
                                                > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > It's really quite amazing
                                                > > > > how simple Klemp's
                                                > > > > redundant message is.
                                                > > > > If EKists would just compare
                                                > > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                                > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                                > > > > leaders one would have
                                                > > > > to wonder what they see
                                                > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                                > > > > but they just laugh at his
                                                > > > > quirkiness because he's
                                                > > > > operating on so many
                                                > > > > high planes of consciousness
                                                > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                                > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                                > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                                > > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                                > > > > park with the current Dali
                                                > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                                > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                                > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                                > > > > religion while Eckankar
                                                > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                                > > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                                > > > > the two leaders and how
                                                > > > > they present themselves
                                                > > > > and what they have to say.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Will ECKists make the
                                                > > > > comparison? No, of course
                                                > > > > not! They won't even allow
                                                > > > > the door to be opened a
                                                > > > > crack because some light
                                                > > > > might get in and show
                                                > > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                                > > > > handle the Truth and
                                                > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                                > > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                                > > > > what would they replace
                                                > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                                > > > > responsibility to think for
                                                > > > > oneself and exercise free
                                                > > > > will. And, it would make
                                                > > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                                > > > > of those EK friends.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Prometheus
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                                > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                                > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                                > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                                > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                                > > > > charlatan to me.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The December 2012
                                                > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                                > > > > in the Ask the Master
                                                > > > > section are two interesting
                                                > > > > questions and answers.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The first question has
                                                > > > > to do with Stress and
                                                > > > > how to overcome it.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                                > > > > washy at best. He says
                                                > > > > that stress is "very
                                                > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                                > > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                                > > > > that people can increase
                                                > > > > their tolerance to stress
                                                > > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                                > > > > enough sleep, and by
                                                > > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                                > > > > of electronic devices."
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > In other words it seems
                                                > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                                > > > > roundabout way, to use
                                                > > > > moderation. After all,
                                                > > > > he's saying to reduce
                                                > > > > "overuse."
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Then, again, how does
                                                > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                                > > > > not use their computer
                                                > > > > 8 hours a day?
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The next question involves
                                                > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                                > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                                > > > > boy and two days later his
                                                > > > > mother translated (died).
                                                > > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                                > > > > new baby was his mother.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                                > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                                > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                                > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                                > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                                > > > > anything at all can happen...
                                                > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                                > > > > son, everything is in accord
                                                > > > > with what is best for all around."
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Prometheus
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • prometheus_973
                                                Hello Non and All, Actually, having good interactive relationships with other people isn t necessarily about making new friends nor having the same religious,
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
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                                                  Hello Non and All,
                                                  Actually, having good
                                                  interactive relationships
                                                  with other people isn't
                                                  necessarily about making
                                                  new friends nor having
                                                  the same religious, political,
                                                  and lifestyle beliefs.
                                                  Trying to get others
                                                  to follow or accept our
                                                  beliefs isn't the goal.

                                                  It's more about being
                                                  "friendly" to/with/for
                                                  others and, thus, to
                                                  ourselves. Usually, being
                                                  friendly and promoting
                                                  "friendship" (versus making
                                                  friends) isn't that hard
                                                  to accomplish. And, if
                                                  it is, we need to make
                                                  more of an effort and
                                                  figure out what it is that's
                                                  making this difficult.

                                                  Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                                  some small talk, and recognizing
                                                  the other person by looking
                                                  directly at them goes a
                                                  long way.

                                                  We can have a friendship
                                                  (i.e. relationship) with a
                                                  clerk whose full name we
                                                  might not ever know. It's
                                                  fun to simply, and naturally,
                                                  smile and be friendly to
                                                  strangers and acquaintances
                                                  without expecting anything
                                                  else. It takes the pressure
                                                  off everyone when we keep
                                                  it light. This lightness of
                                                  Being will help to improve
                                                  our lives and that of others.

                                                  It's true that we will never
                                                  be able to be friendly with
                                                  some people. And, we won't
                                                  always be friends with those
                                                  people we know now. Some
                                                  people don't deserve our
                                                  efforts and will never deserve
                                                  it. They are enemies to what
                                                  we believe in.

                                                  And, not all relationships
                                                  work out nor need to be
                                                  continued for the sake of
                                                  all those involved. Sometimes
                                                  people just have to let go
                                                  and move on even with
                                                  family members. But, these
                                                  are usually relationships
                                                  that have become complicated
                                                  via various factors and are
                                                  usually more one-sided
                                                  due to a lack of communication,
                                                  closed mindedness and
                                                  hurt feelings.

                                                  Our positive relationships
                                                  with nature, to animals,
                                                  and to other people are
                                                  connections that make our
                                                  lives worth living.


                                                  Prometheus





                                                  "Non" wrote:
                                                  Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                                  to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                                  done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                                  friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                                  challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                                  as far as religion may be growing. :)

                                                  Non ;)

                                                  "Non" wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                                  teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                                  lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                                  possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                                  inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                                  act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                                  In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                                  otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                                  even a twisted moral imperative.
                                                  >
                                                  > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                                  direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                                  point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                                  like a small intervention.
                                                  >
                                                  > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                                  situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                                  and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                                  outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                                  at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                                  and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                                  heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                                  >
                                                  > Non ;)
                                                  >
                                                  Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  Hi I am,
                                                  It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                                  we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                                  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                                  possible and let them go on their way.
                                                  Thanks for your comments.
                                                  > >
                                                  I AM wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                                  regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                                  meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                                  sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                                  point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I AM
                                                  > >
                                                  Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                                  it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                                  there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                                  talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                                  happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                                  something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                                  people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                                  people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                                  came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                                  appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                                  is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                                  about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                                  good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                                  > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                                  doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                                  still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                                  willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                                  motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                                  of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                                  everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                                  by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                                  strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                                  broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                                  takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                                  the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                                  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                                  > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                                  hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                                  admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                                  sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                                  knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                                  have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                                  even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                                  heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                                  rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                                  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                                  others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                                  pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                                  that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                                  use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                                  tonight.
                                                  > > >

                                                  prometheus wrote:
                                                  > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                  > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                  > > > will ever become like, God,
                                                  > > > our imagined or possible
                                                  > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                  > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > But, it could be that the
                                                  > > > universe(s) just happened
                                                  > > > and that the remnants of
                                                  > > > other life forms were spread
                                                  > > > to this planet, and others,
                                                  > > > via space rubble... from
                                                  > > > destroyed civilizations
                                                  > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                  > > > intentional seeding by an
                                                  > > > advanced race... which was,
                                                  > > > itself, seeded by another
                                                  > > > advanced race etc.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                  > > > experiences we have
                                                  > > > are the result of
                                                  > > > interaction with the
                                                  > > > quantum mechanical
                                                  > > > field?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                  > > > that what really matters
                                                  > > > are relationships. It's our
                                                  > > > relationships with others,
                                                  > > > even strangers, that matter
                                                  > > > most. This is how we really
                                                  > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                                  > > > relationships are valuable.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Klemp, and others like
                                                  > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                  > > > have arrested development;
                                                  > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                  > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                                  > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                                  > > > or caring about others (are
                                                  > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                                  > > > impede social progress and
                                                  > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                                  > > > us for their own personal
                                                  > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                                  > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                  > > > created can make life interesting
                                                  > > > and a challenge, although,
                                                  > > > it can/will also be physically
                                                  > > > and emotionally painful.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > But, having a regular life
                                                  > > > without additional commitments
                                                  > > > and involvements can also
                                                  > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                                  > > > and insights. We are never
                                                  > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                  > > > not sure how peace of any
                                                  > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                  > > > will ever happen in a world
                                                  > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > One must care about everyone
                                                  > > > and have caring relationships
                                                  > > > with people in order for humankind
                                                  > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                  > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                  > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                                  > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                  > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                  > > > too.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > How can one really "care" about
                                                  > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                  > > > except to keep them away from
                                                  > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                  > > > people.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > When one thinks about it the
                                                  > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                                  > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                  > > > seem to be more pathological
                                                  > > > than the introverts don't you
                                                  > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                  > > > to force us introverts to become
                                                  > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                  > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                                  > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                  > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                  > > > is more intimidating.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                  > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                                  > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                  > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                                  > > > lives because of the differences
                                                  > > > we see in one another. This is
                                                  > > > why there are so many different
                                                  > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                  > > > and wrong.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                  > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                  > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                  > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                  > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                  > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                  > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > There are major flaws with all
                                                  > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                                  > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                  > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                  > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                  > > > validation is that these various
                                                  > > > people in history/myth that the
                                                  > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                  > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                                  > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                  > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                  > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                  > > > have given them credibility, because
                                                  > > > it is believed and taught that
                                                  > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                                  > > > have been the source for their
                                                  > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                  > > > today, who are not even followers
                                                  > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                  > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                  > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                  > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                  > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                                  > > > Many of these people inspired
                                                  > > > others by never giving up in time
                                                  > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                  > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                                  > > > Even those who did give up and
                                                  > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                  > > > maintained their faith and this
                                                  > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                  > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                  > > > for religions there are an awful
                                                  > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                  > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Prometheus
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                  > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                  > > > with unconditional love for the
                                                  > > > master and you get a submissive
                                                  > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                                  > > > Buyer beware!
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                  > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                  > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                  > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                  > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                  > > > Are we to become more than
                                                  > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                  > > > Maybe there is something
                                                  > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                  > > > analogy."
                                                • Non
                                                  Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
                                                    probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
                                                    other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
                                                    doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.

                                                    Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
                                                    a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
                                                    Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
                                                    strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
                                                    (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
                                                    highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
                                                    your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.

                                                    Non ;)

                                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Hello Non and All,
                                                    > Actually, having good
                                                    > interactive relationships
                                                    > with other people isn't
                                                    > necessarily about making
                                                    > new friends nor having
                                                    > the same religious, political,
                                                    > and lifestyle beliefs.
                                                    > Trying to get others
                                                    > to follow or accept our
                                                    > beliefs isn't the goal.
                                                    >
                                                    > It's more about being
                                                    > "friendly" to/with/for
                                                    > others and, thus, to
                                                    > ourselves. Usually, being
                                                    > friendly and promoting
                                                    > "friendship" (versus making
                                                    > friends) isn't that hard
                                                    > to accomplish. And, if
                                                    > it is, we need to make
                                                    > more of an effort and
                                                    > figure out what it is that's
                                                    > making this difficult.
                                                    >
                                                    > Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                                    > some small talk, and recognizing
                                                    > the other person by looking
                                                    > directly at them goes a
                                                    > long way.
                                                    >
                                                    > We can have a friendship
                                                    > (i.e. relationship) with a
                                                    > clerk whose full name we
                                                    > might not ever know. It's
                                                    > fun to simply, and naturally,
                                                    > smile and be friendly to
                                                    > strangers and acquaintances
                                                    > without expecting anything
                                                    > else. It takes the pressure
                                                    > off everyone when we keep
                                                    > it light. This lightness of
                                                    > Being will help to improve
                                                    > our lives and that of others.
                                                    >
                                                    > It's true that we will never
                                                    > be able to be friendly with
                                                    > some people. And, we won't
                                                    > always be friends with those
                                                    > people we know now. Some
                                                    > people don't deserve our
                                                    > efforts and will never deserve
                                                    > it. They are enemies to what
                                                    > we believe in.
                                                    >
                                                    > And, not all relationships
                                                    > work out nor need to be
                                                    > continued for the sake of
                                                    > all those involved. Sometimes
                                                    > people just have to let go
                                                    > and move on even with
                                                    > family members. But, these
                                                    > are usually relationships
                                                    > that have become complicated
                                                    > via various factors and are
                                                    > usually more one-sided
                                                    > due to a lack of communication,
                                                    > closed mindedness and
                                                    > hurt feelings.
                                                    >
                                                    > Our positive relationships
                                                    > with nature, to animals,
                                                    > and to other people are
                                                    > connections that make our
                                                    > lives worth living.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Prometheus
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > "Non" wrote:
                                                    > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                                    > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                                    > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                                    > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                                    > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                                    > as far as religion may be growing. :)
                                                    >
                                                    > Non ;)
                                                    >
                                                    > "Non" wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                                    > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                                    > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                                    > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                                    > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                                    > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                                    > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                                    > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                                    > even a twisted moral imperative.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                                    > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                                    > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                                    > like a small intervention.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                                    > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                                    > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                                    > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                                    > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                                    > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                                    > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Non ;)
                                                    > >
                                                    > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > Hi I am,
                                                    > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                                    > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                                    > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                                    > possible and let them go on their way.
                                                    > Thanks for your comments.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > I AM wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                                    > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                                    > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                                    > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                                    > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I AM
                                                    > > >
                                                    > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                                    > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                                    > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                                    > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                                    > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                                    > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                                    > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                                    > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                                    > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                                    > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                                    > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                                    > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                                    > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                                    > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                                    > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                                    > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                                    > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                                    > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                                    > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                                    > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                                    > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                                    > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                                    > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                                    > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                                    > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                                    > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                                    > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                                    > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                                    > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                                    > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                                    > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                                    > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                                    > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                                    > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                                    > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                                    > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                                    > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                                    > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                                    > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                                    > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                                    > tonight.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    >
                                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                                    > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                    > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                    > > > > will ever become like, God,
                                                    > > > > our imagined or possible
                                                    > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                    > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > But, it could be that the
                                                    > > > > universe(s) just happened
                                                    > > > > and that the remnants of
                                                    > > > > other life forms were spread
                                                    > > > > to this planet, and others,
                                                    > > > > via space rubble... from
                                                    > > > > destroyed civilizations
                                                    > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                    > > > > intentional seeding by an
                                                    > > > > advanced race... which was,
                                                    > > > > itself, seeded by another
                                                    > > > > advanced race etc.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                    > > > > experiences we have
                                                    > > > > are the result of
                                                    > > > > interaction with the
                                                    > > > > quantum mechanical
                                                    > > > > field?
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                    > > > > that what really matters
                                                    > > > > are relationships. It's our
                                                    > > > > relationships with others,
                                                    > > > > even strangers, that matter
                                                    > > > > most. This is how we really
                                                    > > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                                    > > > > relationships are valuable.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Klemp, and others like
                                                    > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                    > > > > have arrested development;
                                                    > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                    > > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                                    > > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                                    > > > > or caring about others (are
                                                    > > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                                    > > > > impede social progress and
                                                    > > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                                    > > > > us for their own personal
                                                    > > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                                    > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                    > > > > created can make life interesting
                                                    > > > > and a challenge, although,
                                                    > > > > it can/will also be physically
                                                    > > > > and emotionally painful.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > But, having a regular life
                                                    > > > > without additional commitments
                                                    > > > > and involvements can also
                                                    > > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                                    > > > > and insights. We are never
                                                    > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                    > > > > not sure how peace of any
                                                    > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                    > > > > will ever happen in a world
                                                    > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > One must care about everyone
                                                    > > > > and have caring relationships
                                                    > > > > with people in order for humankind
                                                    > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                    > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                    > > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                                    > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                    > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                    > > > > too.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > How can one really "care" about
                                                    > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                    > > > > except to keep them away from
                                                    > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                    > > > > people.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > When one thinks about it the
                                                    > > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                                    > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                    > > > > seem to be more pathological
                                                    > > > > than the introverts don't you
                                                    > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                    > > > > to force us introverts to become
                                                    > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                    > > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                                    > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                    > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                    > > > > is more intimidating.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                    > > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                                    > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                    > > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                                    > > > > lives because of the differences
                                                    > > > > we see in one another. This is
                                                    > > > > why there are so many different
                                                    > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                    > > > > and wrong.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                    > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                    > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                    > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                    > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                    > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                    > > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > There are major flaws with all
                                                    > > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                                    > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                    > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                    > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                    > > > > validation is that these various
                                                    > > > > people in history/myth that the
                                                    > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                    > > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                                    > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                    > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                    > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                    > > > > have given them credibility, because
                                                    > > > > it is believed and taught that
                                                    > > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                                    > > > > have been the source for their
                                                    > > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                    > > > > today, who are not even followers
                                                    > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                    > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                    > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                    > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                    > > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                                    > > > > Many of these people inspired
                                                    > > > > others by never giving up in time
                                                    > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                    > > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                                    > > > > Even those who did give up and
                                                    > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                    > > > > maintained their faith and this
                                                    > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                    > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                    > > > > for religions there are an awful
                                                    > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                    > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Prometheus
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                    > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                    > > > > with unconditional love for the
                                                    > > > > master and you get a submissive
                                                    > > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                                    > > > > Buyer beware!
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                    > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                    > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                    > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                    > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                    > > > > Are we to become more than
                                                    > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                    > > > > Maybe there is something
                                                    > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                    > > > > analogy."
                                                    >
                                                  • prometheus_973
                                                    Really! This is a valid spiritual technique that, unlike those HK hands out and sells, actually works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 18, 2013
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Really! This is a valid spiritual
                                                      technique that, unlike those
                                                      HK hands out and sells, actually
                                                      works:

                                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo

                                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
                                                      > probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
                                                      > other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
                                                      > doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.
                                                      >
                                                      > Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
                                                      > a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
                                                      > Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
                                                      > strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
                                                      > (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
                                                      > highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
                                                      > your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.
                                                      >
                                                      > Non ;)
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Hello Non and All,
                                                      > > Actually, having good
                                                      > > interactive relationships
                                                      > > with other people isn't
                                                      > > necessarily about making
                                                      > > new friends nor having
                                                      > > the same religious, political,
                                                      > > and lifestyle beliefs.
                                                      > > Trying to get others
                                                      > > to follow or accept our
                                                      > > beliefs isn't the goal.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > It's more about being
                                                      > > "friendly" to/with/for
                                                      > > others and, thus, to
                                                      > > ourselves. Usually, being
                                                      > > friendly and promoting
                                                      > > "friendship" (versus making
                                                      > > friends) isn't that hard
                                                      > > to accomplish. And, if
                                                      > > it is, we need to make
                                                      > > more of an effort and
                                                      > > figure out what it is that's
                                                      > > making this difficult.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                                      > > some small talk, and recognizing
                                                      > > the other person by looking
                                                      > > directly at them goes a
                                                      > > long way.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > We can have a friendship
                                                      > > (i.e. relationship) with a
                                                      > > clerk whose full name we
                                                      > > might not ever know. It's
                                                      > > fun to simply, and naturally,
                                                      > > smile and be friendly to
                                                      > > strangers and acquaintances
                                                      > > without expecting anything
                                                      > > else. It takes the pressure
                                                      > > off everyone when we keep
                                                      > > it light. This lightness of
                                                      > > Being will help to improve
                                                      > > our lives and that of others.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > It's true that we will never
                                                      > > be able to be friendly with
                                                      > > some people. And, we won't
                                                      > > always be friends with those
                                                      > > people we know now. Some
                                                      > > people don't deserve our
                                                      > > efforts and will never deserve
                                                      > > it. They are enemies to what
                                                      > > we believe in.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > And, not all relationships
                                                      > > work out nor need to be
                                                      > > continued for the sake of
                                                      > > all those involved. Sometimes
                                                      > > people just have to let go
                                                      > > and move on even with
                                                      > > family members. But, these
                                                      > > are usually relationships
                                                      > > that have become complicated
                                                      > > via various factors and are
                                                      > > usually more one-sided
                                                      > > due to a lack of communication,
                                                      > > closed mindedness and
                                                      > > hurt feelings.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Our positive relationships
                                                      > > with nature, to animals,
                                                      > > and to other people are
                                                      > > connections that make our
                                                      > > lives worth living.
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Prometheus
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > "Non" wrote:
                                                      > > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                                      > > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                                      > > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                                      > > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                                      > > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                                      > > as far as religion may be growing. :)
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Non ;)
                                                      > >
                                                      > > "Non" wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                                      > > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                                      > > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                                      > > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                                      > > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                                      > > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                                      > > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                                      > > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                                      > > even a twisted moral imperative.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                                      > > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                                      > > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                                      > > like a small intervention.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                                      > > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                                      > > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                                      > > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                                      > > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                                      > > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                                      > > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Non ;)
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > Hi I am,
                                                      > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                                      > > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                                      > > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                                      > > possible and let them go on their way.
                                                      > > Thanks for your comments.
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > I AM wrote:
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                                      > > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                                      > > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                                      > > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                                      > > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > I AM
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                                      > > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                                      > > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                                      > > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                                      > > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                                      > > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                                      > > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                                      > > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                                      > > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                                      > > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                                      > > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                                      > > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                                      > > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                                      > > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                                      > > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                                      > > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                                      > > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                                      > > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                                      > > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                                      > > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                                      > > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                                      > > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                                      > > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                                      > > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                                      > > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                                      > > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                                      > > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                                      > > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                                      > > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                                      > > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                                      > > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                                      > > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                                      > > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                                      > > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                                      > > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                                      > > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                                      > > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                                      > > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                                      > > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                                      > > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                                      > > tonight.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > prometheus wrote:
                                                      > > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                      > > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                      > > > > > will ever become like, God,
                                                      > > > > > our imagined or possible
                                                      > > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                      > > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > But, it could be that the
                                                      > > > > > universe(s) just happened
                                                      > > > > > and that the remnants of
                                                      > > > > > other life forms were spread
                                                      > > > > > to this planet, and others,
                                                      > > > > > via space rubble... from
                                                      > > > > > destroyed civilizations
                                                      > > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                      > > > > > intentional seeding by an
                                                      > > > > > advanced race... which was,
                                                      > > > > > itself, seeded by another
                                                      > > > > > advanced race etc.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                      > > > > > experiences we have
                                                      > > > > > are the result of
                                                      > > > > > interaction with the
                                                      > > > > > quantum mechanical
                                                      > > > > > field?
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                      > > > > > that what really matters
                                                      > > > > > are relationships. It's our
                                                      > > > > > relationships with others,
                                                      > > > > > even strangers, that matter
                                                      > > > > > most. This is how we really
                                                      > > > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                                      > > > > > relationships are valuable.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Klemp, and others like
                                                      > > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                      > > > > > have arrested development;
                                                      > > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                      > > > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                                      > > > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                                      > > > > > or caring about others (are
                                                      > > > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                                      > > > > > impede social progress and
                                                      > > > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                                      > > > > > us for their own personal
                                                      > > > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                                      > > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                      > > > > > created can make life interesting
                                                      > > > > > and a challenge, although,
                                                      > > > > > it can/will also be physically
                                                      > > > > > and emotionally painful.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > But, having a regular life
                                                      > > > > > without additional commitments
                                                      > > > > > and involvements can also
                                                      > > > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                                      > > > > > and insights. We are never
                                                      > > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                      > > > > > not sure how peace of any
                                                      > > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                      > > > > > will ever happen in a world
                                                      > > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > One must care about everyone
                                                      > > > > > and have caring relationships
                                                      > > > > > with people in order for humankind
                                                      > > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                      > > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                      > > > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                                      > > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                      > > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                      > > > > > too.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > How can one really "care" about
                                                      > > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                      > > > > > except to keep them away from
                                                      > > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                      > > > > > people.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > When one thinks about it the
                                                      > > > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                                      > > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                      > > > > > seem to be more pathological
                                                      > > > > > than the introverts don't you
                                                      > > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                      > > > > > to force us introverts to become
                                                      > > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                      > > > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                                      > > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                      > > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                      > > > > > is more intimidating.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                      > > > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                                      > > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                      > > > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                                      > > > > > lives because of the differences
                                                      > > > > > we see in one another. This is
                                                      > > > > > why there are so many different
                                                      > > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                      > > > > > and wrong.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                      > > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                      > > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                      > > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                      > > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                      > > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                      > > > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > There are major flaws with all
                                                      > > > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                                      > > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                      > > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                      > > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                      > > > > > validation is that these various
                                                      > > > > > people in history/myth that the
                                                      > > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                      > > > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                                      > > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                      > > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                      > > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                      > > > > > have given them credibility, because
                                                      > > > > > it is believed and taught that
                                                      > > > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                                      > > > > > have been the source for their
                                                      > > > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                      > > > > > today, who are not even followers
                                                      > > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                      > > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                      > > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                      > > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                      > > > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                                      > > > > > Many of these people inspired
                                                      > > > > > others by never giving up in time
                                                      > > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                      > > > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                                      > > > > > Even those who did give up and
                                                      > > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                      > > > > > maintained their faith and this
                                                      > > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                      > > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                      > > > > > for religions there are an awful
                                                      > > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                      > > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Prometheus
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                      > > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                      > > > > > with unconditional love for the
                                                      > > > > > master and you get a submissive
                                                      > > > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                                      > > > > > Buyer beware!
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                      > > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                      > > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                      > > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                      > > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                      > > > > > Are we to become more than
                                                      > > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                      > > > > > Maybe there is something
                                                      > > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                      > > > > > analogy."
                                                      > >
                                                      >
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