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The Wishy-Washy Mahanta

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  • prometheus_973
    The December 2012 Eckankar Mystic World in the Ask the Master section are two interesting questions and answers. The first question has to do with Stress and
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 2, 2013
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      The December 2012
      Eckankar Mystic World
      in the Ask the Master
      section are two interesting
      questions and answers.

      The first question has
      to do with Stress and
      how to overcome it.

      HK's answer is wishy-
      washy at best. He says
      that stress is "very
      uncomfortable... Yet
      stress is a good teacher."

      Klemp goes on to say
      that people increase
      their tolerance to stress
      by eating healthy, getting
      enough sleep, and by
      "Reducing our overuse
      of electronic devices."

      In other words it seems
      Klemp is saying, in a
      roundabout way, to use
      moderation. After all,
      he's saying to reduce
      "overuse."

      Then, again, how does
      a EK staffer at the ESC
      not use their computer
      8 hours a day?

      The next question involves
      reincarnation. This guy's
      wife gave birth to a baby
      boy and two days later his
      mother translated (died).
      He indirectly asked if this
      new baby was his mother.

      Instead of giving this EKist
      a direct answer, Klemp,
      the wishy-washy Mahanta
      says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
      When it comes to rebirth,
      anything at all can happen...
      Whichever Soul is now your
      son, everything is in accord
      with what is best for all around."

      Prometheus
    • iam999freedom
      Hi Prometheus, On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about free will and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 2, 2013
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        Hi Prometheus,

        On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself: "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"

        Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
        turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
        been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
        and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
        different character than the other."

        I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)

        I still have yet to receive a response.

        I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.

        Thanks,
        I AM




        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > The December 2012
        > Eckankar Mystic World
        > in the Ask the Master
        > section are two interesting
        > questions and answers.
        >
        > The first question has
        > to do with Stress and
        > how to overcome it.
        >
        > HK's answer is wishy-
        > washy at best. He says
        > that stress is "very
        > uncomfortable... Yet
        > stress is a good teacher."
        >
        > Klemp goes on to say
        > that people increase
        > their tolerance to stress
        > by eating healthy, getting
        > enough sleep, and by
        > "Reducing our overuse
        > of electronic devices."
        >
        > In other words it seems
        > Klemp is saying, in a
        > roundabout way, to use
        > moderation. After all,
        > he's saying to reduce
        > "overuse."
        >
        > Then, again, how does
        > a EK staffer at the ESC
        > not use their computer
        > 8 hours a day?
        >
        > The next question involves
        > reincarnation. This guy's
        > wife gave birth to a baby
        > boy and two days later his
        > mother translated (died).
        > He indirectly asked if this
        > new baby was his mother.
        >
        > Instead of giving this EKist
        > a direct answer, Klemp,
        > the wishy-washy Mahanta
        > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
        > When it comes to rebirth,
        > anything at all can happen...
        > Whichever Soul is now your
        > son, everything is in accord
        > with what is best for all around."
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello I Am, Okay, let me give it a shot and use some excerpts etc. HK s talking about psychological studies using identical twins (not conjoined) that were
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 2, 2013
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          Hello I Am,
          Okay, let me give it
          a shot and use some
          excerpts etc.

          HK's talking about
          psychological studies
          using identical twins
          (not conjoined) that
          were separated soon
          after birth. They grew
          up elsewhere and had
          different influences
          but dressed the same
          and had the same type
          of dog and gave the
          dog the same name etc.,
          etc.

          Thus, it seems that
          Free Will relies upon
          genetics (nature) more
          than it does upon nurture,
          although, HK says that
          Yogi Berra stated that
          "in theory, practice doesn't
          matter; in practice, it does."

          BTW- According to Klemp
          "The Lords of Karma have
          selected a body with the
          appropriate genes for each
          student."

          However, HK has somewhat
          contradicted what is in CH.
          3 of the Shariyat. It states
          that "the spiritual workers
          created man and placed
          within him a living imperishable
          Spirit, called Soul."

          There is no other mention
          of these "spiritual workers."

          Anywho-

          HK is so clever the way
          he'll twist a quote to add
          even more confusion to
          his message of absolute
          servitude and obedience.

          I counted HK using "But"
          four times. In an old H.I.
          Letter he said never to
          use "But" with one another
          and that it was a nail in
          the coffin of invention and
          took away from what was
          previously said.

          HK:
          "BUT they dug in their heels
          at the finding that such twins'
          IQs were nearly as similar as
          their heights."

          "The hamster's destiny is firmly
          set. A kind owner may let it out
          into the room on occasion. BUT
          it is still in a house."

          "Researchers, too, can advance
          only to a fixed point in their studies
          of what elements make up a whole
          individual. BUT they do not have
          a magical key to the spiritual self.
          The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."

          Funny that Klemp states that he
          holds "a magical key" to control
          others like a Black Magician would.

          "The Mahanta alone can help people
          out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
          must have the right kind and amount
          of daily experiences."

          I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
          and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
          Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
          the "right kind and amount of daily
          experiences."

          Yes, Klemp like most religionists
          doesn't like science and psychologists
          since getting locked up in an asylum
          and having to "play-the-game" to
          be released early.

          HK states that "Real free will rests
          entirely on trusting the Master's
          prompts [signs?] as to which of
          many choices to make in all things
          human and divine."

          In other words do as I say not
          as I do and there is no such
          thing as Free Will for ECKists.
          Does that kind sound like Cult
          think? Klemp is getting nuttier
          and scarier! HK goes on to say
          that "He gives suggestions" and
          "seldom does he issue directives...
          True Free Will of an individual
          stands upon the Mahanta's
          guidance."

          Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
          as he speaks from experience:
          "Master Magicians turn subjects'
          ingrained ideas about patterns
          against them. A subject thinks
          he has the quick mind and eyes
          to catch a Magician in an act,
          even while he is being unburdened
          of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
          That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
          played upon people by illusion."

          "Again, keep in-touch with the
          Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
          exercises," but write those snail-
          mail IROs so I'll know what you're
          thinking and so I can use those
          stories for my next book.


          iam999freedom wrote:
          Hi Prometheus,

          On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
          "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
          "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"

          Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
          turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
          been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
          and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
          different character than the other."

          I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
          Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next morning
          on TV about conjoined twins. (above)

          I still have yet to receive a response.

          I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic Note
          that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.

          Thanks,
          I AM




          prometheus_wrote:
          >
          > The December 2012
          > Eckankar Mystic World
          > in the Ask the Master
          > section are two interesting
          > questions and answers.
          >
          > The first question has
          > to do with Stress and
          > how to overcome it.
          >
          > HK's answer is wishy-
          > washy at best. He says
          > that stress is "very
          > uncomfortable... Yet
          > stress is a good teacher."
          >
          > Klemp goes on to say
          > that people increase
          > their tolerance to stress
          > by eating healthy, getting
          > enough sleep, and by
          > "Reducing our overuse
          > of electronic devices."
          >
          > In other words it seems
          > Klemp is saying, in a
          > roundabout way, to use
          > moderation. After all,
          > he's saying to reduce
          > "overuse."
          >
          > Then, again, how does
          > a EK staffer at the ESC
          > not use their computer
          > 8 hours a day?
          >
          > The next question involves
          > reincarnation. This guy's
          > wife gave birth to a baby
          > boy and two days later his
          > mother translated (died).
          > He indirectly asked if this
          > new baby was his mother.
          >
          > Instead of giving this EKist
          > a direct answer, Klemp,
          > the wishy-washy Mahanta
          > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
          > When it comes to rebirth,
          > anything at all can happen...
          > Whichever Soul is now your
          > son, everything is in accord
          > with what is best for all around."
          >
          > Prometheus
        • iam999freedom
          Hi Prometheus, Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
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            Hi Prometheus,
            Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with the environment.

            As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls merely dress up dolls with no free choice?

            According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".

            What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc. Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.

            I AM

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
            >
            > Hello I Am,
            > Okay, let me give it
            > a shot and use some
            > excerpts etc.
            >
            > HK's talking about
            > psychological studies
            > using identical twins
            > (not conjoined) that
            > were separated soon
            > after birth. They grew
            > up elsewhere and had
            > different influences
            > but dressed the same
            > and had the same type
            > of dog and gave the
            > dog the same name etc.,
            > etc.
            >
            > Thus, it seems that
            > Free Will relies upon
            > genetics (nature) more
            > than it does upon nurture,
            > although, HK says that
            > Yogi Berra stated that
            > "in theory, practice doesn't
            > matter; in practice, it does."
            >
            > BTW- According to Klemp
            > "The Lords of Karma have
            > selected a body with the
            > appropriate genes for each
            > student."
            >
            > However, HK has somewhat
            > contradicted what is in CH.
            > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
            > that "the spiritual workers
            > created man and placed
            > within him a living imperishable
            > Spirit, called Soul."
            >
            > There is no other mention
            > of these "spiritual workers."
            >
            > Anywho-
            >
            > HK is so clever the way
            > he'll twist a quote to add
            > even more confusion to
            > his message of absolute
            > servitude and obedience.
            >
            > I counted HK using "But"
            > four times. In an old H.I.
            > Letter he said never to
            > use "But" with one another
            > and that it was a nail in
            > the coffin of invention and
            > took away from what was
            > previously said.
            >
            > HK:
            > "BUT they dug in their heels
            > at the finding that such twins'
            > IQs were nearly as similar as
            > their heights."
            >
            > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
            > set. A kind owner may let it out
            > into the room on occasion. BUT
            > it is still in a house."
            >
            > "Researchers, too, can advance
            > only to a fixed point in their studies
            > of what elements make up a whole
            > individual. BUT they do not have
            > a magical key to the spiritual self.
            > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
            >
            > Funny that Klemp states that he
            > holds "a magical key" to control
            > others like a Black Magician would.
            >
            > "The Mahanta alone can help people
            > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
            > must have the right kind and amount
            > of daily experiences."
            >
            > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
            > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
            > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
            > the "right kind and amount of daily
            > experiences."
            >
            > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
            > doesn't like science and psychologists
            > since getting locked up in an asylum
            > and having to "play-the-game" to
            > be released early.
            >
            > HK states that "Real free will rests
            > entirely on trusting the Master's
            > prompts [signs?] as to which of
            > many choices to make in all things
            > human and divine."
            >
            > In other words do as I say not
            > as I do and there is no such
            > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
            > Does that kind sound like Cult
            > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
            > and scarier! HK goes on to say
            > that "He gives suggestions" and
            > "seldom does he issue directives...
            > True Free Will of an individual
            > stands upon the Mahanta's
            > guidance."
            >
            > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
            > as he speaks from experience:
            > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
            > ingrained ideas about patterns
            > against them. A subject thinks
            > he has the quick mind and eyes
            > to catch a Magician in an act,
            > even while he is being unburdened
            > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
            > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
            > played upon people by illusion."
            >
            > "Again, keep in-touch with the
            > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
            > exercises," but write those snail-
            > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
            > thinking and so I can use those
            > stories for my next book.
            >
            >
            > iam999freedom wrote:
            > Hi Prometheus,
            >
            > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
            > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
            > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
            >
            > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
            > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
            > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
            > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
            > different character than the other."
            >
            > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
            > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next morning
            > on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
            >
            > I still have yet to receive a response.
            >
            > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic Note
            > that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > I AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > prometheus_wrote:
            > >
            > > The December 2012
            > > Eckankar Mystic World
            > > in the Ask the Master
            > > section are two interesting
            > > questions and answers.
            > >
            > > The first question has
            > > to do with Stress and
            > > how to overcome it.
            > >
            > > HK's answer is wishy-
            > > washy at best. He says
            > > that stress is "very
            > > uncomfortable... Yet
            > > stress is a good teacher."
            > >
            > > Klemp goes on to say
            > > that people increase
            > > their tolerance to stress
            > > by eating healthy, getting
            > > enough sleep, and by
            > > "Reducing our overuse
            > > of electronic devices."
            > >
            > > In other words it seems
            > > Klemp is saying, in a
            > > roundabout way, to use
            > > moderation. After all,
            > > he's saying to reduce
            > > "overuse."
            > >
            > > Then, again, how does
            > > a EK staffer at the ESC
            > > not use their computer
            > > 8 hours a day?
            > >
            > > The next question involves
            > > reincarnation. This guy's
            > > wife gave birth to a baby
            > > boy and two days later his
            > > mother translated (died).
            > > He indirectly asked if this
            > > new baby was his mother.
            > >
            > > Instead of giving this EKist
            > > a direct answer, Klemp,
            > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
            > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
            > > When it comes to rebirth,
            > > anything at all can happen...
            > > Whichever Soul is now your
            > > son, everything is in accord
            > > with what is best for all around."
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello I AM and All, Actually Klemp did cite some studies and I Googled it myself and saw that there is proof that identical twins share similarities. The
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello I AM and All,
              Actually Klemp did cite some
              studies and I Googled it myself
              and saw that there is proof that
              identical twins share similarities.
              The mirrored behaviors could
              be genetical with brain frequencies
              and brain function being the
              same due to a quantum mechanical
              influence. I threw that last one
              in on my own, but who knows?

              I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
              use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
              Twin Soul concept. But, he did
              use the Lords of Karma ruse
              which, BTW, is not solely owned
              by Eckankar.

              Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
              to get new members by promising
              "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
              Liberation" but then he switches
              it up and demands (suggests)
              Mahanta Codependency and Sales
              Team participation in order to,
              possibly, get promoted and receive
              "Spiritual Rewards."

              It is funny that Klemp claims to
              take "Free Will" away from Souls
              who join Eckankar and follow him.
              Does this mean that those Souls
              who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
              have Free Will? It sounds like it!

              Prometheus


              iam999freedom wrote:
              Hi Prometheus,
              Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
              improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
              of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
              perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
              do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
              the environment.

              As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
              each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
              merely dress up dolls with no free choice?

              According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
              right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
              listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".

              What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
              Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
              etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
              prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.

              I AM

              prometheus_973" wrote:
              >
              > Hello I Am,
              > Okay, let me give it
              > a shot and use some
              > excerpts etc.
              >
              > HK's talking about
              > psychological studies
              > using identical twins
              > (not conjoined) that
              > were separated soon
              > after birth. They grew
              > up elsewhere and had
              > different influences
              > but dressed the same
              > and had the same type
              > of dog and gave the
              > dog the same name etc.,
              > etc.
              >
              > Thus, it seems that
              > Free Will relies upon
              > genetics (nature) more
              > than it does upon nurture,
              > although, HK says that
              > Yogi Berra stated that
              > "in theory, practice doesn't
              > matter; in practice, it does."
              >
              > BTW- According to Klemp
              > "The Lords of Karma have
              > selected a body with the
              > appropriate genes for each
              > student."
              >
              > However, HK has somewhat
              > contradicted what is in CH.
              > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
              > that "the spiritual workers
              > created man and placed
              > within him a living imperishable
              > Spirit, called Soul."
              >
              > There is no other mention
              > of these "spiritual workers."
              >
              > Anywho-
              >
              > HK is so clever the way
              > he'll twist a quote to add
              > even more confusion to
              > his message of absolute
              > servitude and obedience.
              >
              > I counted HK using "But"
              > four times. In an old H.I.
              > Letter he said never to
              > use "But" with one another
              > and that it was a nail in
              > the coffin of invention and
              > took away from what was
              > previously said.
              >
              > HK:
              > "BUT they dug in their heels
              > at the finding that such twins'
              > IQs were nearly as similar as
              > their heights."
              >
              > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
              > set. A kind owner may let it out
              > into the room on occasion. BUT
              > it is still in a house."
              >
              > "Researchers, too, can advance
              > only to a fixed point in their studies
              > of what elements make up a whole
              > individual. BUT they do not have
              > a magical key to the spiritual self.
              > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
              >
              > Funny that Klemp states that he
              > holds "a magical key" to control
              > others like a Black Magician would.
              >
              > "The Mahanta alone can help people
              > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
              > must have the right kind and amount
              > of daily experiences."
              >
              > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
              > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
              > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
              > the "right kind and amount of daily
              > experiences."
              >
              > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
              > doesn't like science and psychologists
              > since getting locked up in an asylum
              > and having to "play-the-game" to
              > be released early.
              >
              > HK states that "Real free will rests
              > entirely on trusting the Master's
              > prompts [signs?] as to which of
              > many choices to make in all things
              > human and divine."
              >
              > In other words do as I say not
              > as I do and there is no such
              > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
              > Does that kind sound like Cult
              > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
              > and scarier! HK goes on to say
              > that "He gives suggestions" and
              > "seldom does he issue directives...
              > True Free Will of an individual
              > stands upon the Mahanta's
              > guidance."
              >
              > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
              > as he speaks from experience:
              > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
              > ingrained ideas about patterns
              > against them. A subject thinks
              > he has the quick mind and eyes
              > to catch a Magician in an act,
              > even while he is being unburdened
              > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
              > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
              > played upon people by illusion."
              >
              > "Again, keep in-touch with the
              > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
              > exercises," but write those snail-
              > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
              > thinking and so I can use those
              > stories for my next book.
              >
              >
              > iam999freedom wrote:
              > Hi Prometheus,
              >
              > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
              > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
              > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
              >
              > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
              > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
              > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
              > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
              > different character than the other."
              >
              > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
              > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
              morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
              >
              > I still have yet to receive a response.
              >
              > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
              Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > I AM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > prometheus_wrote:
              > >
              > > The December 2012
              > > Eckankar Mystic World
              > > in the Ask the Master
              > > section are two interesting
              > > questions and answers.
              > >
              > > The first question has
              > > to do with Stress and
              > > how to overcome it.
              > >
              > > HK's answer is wishy-
              > > washy at best. He says
              > > that stress is "very
              > > uncomfortable... Yet
              > > stress is a good teacher."
              > >
              > > Klemp goes on to say
              > > that people increase
              > > their tolerance to stress
              > > by eating healthy, getting
              > > enough sleep, and by
              > > "Reducing our overuse
              > > of electronic devices."
              > >
              > > In other words it seems
              > > Klemp is saying, in a
              > > roundabout way, to use
              > > moderation. After all,
              > > he's saying to reduce
              > > "overuse."
              > >
              > > Then, again, how does
              > > a EK staffer at the ESC
              > > not use their computer
              > > 8 hours a day?
              > >
              > > The next question involves
              > > reincarnation. This guy's
              > > wife gave birth to a baby
              > > boy and two days later his
              > > mother translated (died).
              > > He indirectly asked if this
              > > new baby was his mother.
              > >
              > > Instead of giving this EKist
              > > a direct answer, Klemp,
              > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
              > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
              > > When it comes to rebirth,
              > > anything at all can happen...
              > > Whichever Soul is now your
              > > son, everything is in accord
              > > with what is best for all around."
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              >
            • iam999freedom
              Thats an interesting point about HK using Bait and Switch to get new members by promising Self-Mastery and Spiritual Liberation but then switching it up
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Thats an interesting point about HK using Bait and Switch to get new members by promising "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
                Liberation" but then switching it up and demanding (suggesting) Mahanta Codependency. It would be interesting to see how many Eckists started off on the path with problems with their father. I know I did as well as many others that I know of. It is so easy to get swarmed up in this feel good promise of Self-Mastery while codependency is subtly being reinforced at every turn. Before you know it codependency along with the threats about leaving the path can take a heavy toll on someone with a strong urge for independence.

                BTW, I think if there is such a thing as a Mahanta then it is our OWN HIGHEST STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

                I AM

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                >
                > Hello I AM and All,
                > Actually Klemp did cite some
                > studies and I Googled it myself
                > and saw that there is proof that
                > identical twins share similarities.
                > The mirrored behaviors could
                > be genetical with brain frequencies
                > and brain function being the
                > same due to a quantum mechanical
                > influence. I threw that last one
                > in on my own, but who knows?
                >
                > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
                > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
                > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
                > use the Lords of Karma ruse
                > which, BTW, is not solely owned
                > by Eckankar.
                >
                > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
                > to get new members by promising
                > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
                > Liberation" but then he switches
                > it up and demands (suggests)
                > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
                > Team participation in order to,
                > possibly, get promoted and receive
                > "Spiritual Rewards."
                >
                > It is funny that Klemp claims to
                > take "Free Will" away from Souls
                > who join Eckankar and follow him.
                > Does this mean that those Souls
                > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
                > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > iam999freedom wrote:
                > Hi Prometheus,
                > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
                > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
                > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
                > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
                > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
                > the environment.
                >
                > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
                > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
                > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
                >
                > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
                > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
                > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
                >
                > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
                > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
                > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
                > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
                >
                > I AM
                >
                > prometheus_973" wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello I Am,
                > > Okay, let me give it
                > > a shot and use some
                > > excerpts etc.
                > >
                > > HK's talking about
                > > psychological studies
                > > using identical twins
                > > (not conjoined) that
                > > were separated soon
                > > after birth. They grew
                > > up elsewhere and had
                > > different influences
                > > but dressed the same
                > > and had the same type
                > > of dog and gave the
                > > dog the same name etc.,
                > > etc.
                > >
                > > Thus, it seems that
                > > Free Will relies upon
                > > genetics (nature) more
                > > than it does upon nurture,
                > > although, HK says that
                > > Yogi Berra stated that
                > > "in theory, practice doesn't
                > > matter; in practice, it does."
                > >
                > > BTW- According to Klemp
                > > "The Lords of Karma have
                > > selected a body with the
                > > appropriate genes for each
                > > student."
                > >
                > > However, HK has somewhat
                > > contradicted what is in CH.
                > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                > > that "the spiritual workers
                > > created man and placed
                > > within him a living imperishable
                > > Spirit, called Soul."
                > >
                > > There is no other mention
                > > of these "spiritual workers."
                > >
                > > Anywho-
                > >
                > > HK is so clever the way
                > > he'll twist a quote to add
                > > even more confusion to
                > > his message of absolute
                > > servitude and obedience.
                > >
                > > I counted HK using "But"
                > > four times. In an old H.I.
                > > Letter he said never to
                > > use "But" with one another
                > > and that it was a nail in
                > > the coffin of invention and
                > > took away from what was
                > > previously said.
                > >
                > > HK:
                > > "BUT they dug in their heels
                > > at the finding that such twins'
                > > IQs were nearly as similar as
                > > their heights."
                > >
                > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                > > set. A kind owner may let it out
                > > into the room on occasion. BUT
                > > it is still in a house."
                > >
                > > "Researchers, too, can advance
                > > only to a fixed point in their studies
                > > of what elements make up a whole
                > > individual. BUT they do not have
                > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                > >
                > > Funny that Klemp states that he
                > > holds "a magical key" to control
                > > others like a Black Magician would.
                > >
                > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                > > must have the right kind and amount
                > > of daily experiences."
                > >
                > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                > > the "right kind and amount of daily
                > > experiences."
                > >
                > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                > > doesn't like science and psychologists
                > > since getting locked up in an asylum
                > > and having to "play-the-game" to
                > > be released early.
                > >
                > > HK states that "Real free will rests
                > > entirely on trusting the Master's
                > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                > > many choices to make in all things
                > > human and divine."
                > >
                > > In other words do as I say not
                > > as I do and there is no such
                > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                > > Does that kind sound like Cult
                > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                > > that "He gives suggestions" and
                > > "seldom does he issue directives...
                > > True Free Will of an individual
                > > stands upon the Mahanta's
                > > guidance."
                > >
                > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                > > as he speaks from experience:
                > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                > > ingrained ideas about patterns
                > > against them. A subject thinks
                > > he has the quick mind and eyes
                > > to catch a Magician in an act,
                > > even while he is being unburdened
                > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                > > played upon people by illusion."
                > >
                > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                > > exercises," but write those snail-
                > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                > > thinking and so I can use those
                > > stories for my next book.
                > >
                > >
                > > iam999freedom wrote:
                > > Hi Prometheus,
                > >
                > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                > >
                > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                > > different character than the other."
                > >
                > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
                > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                > >
                > > I still have yet to receive a response.
                > >
                > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
                > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > > I AM
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > prometheus_wrote:
                > > >
                > > > The December 2012
                > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                > > > in the Ask the Master
                > > > section are two interesting
                > > > questions and answers.
                > > >
                > > > The first question has
                > > > to do with Stress and
                > > > how to overcome it.
                > > >
                > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                > > > washy at best. He says
                > > > that stress is "very
                > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                > > > stress is a good teacher."
                > > >
                > > > Klemp goes on to say
                > > > that people increase
                > > > their tolerance to stress
                > > > by eating healthy, getting
                > > > enough sleep, and by
                > > > "Reducing our overuse
                > > > of electronic devices."
                > > >
                > > > In other words it seems
                > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                > > > roundabout way, to use
                > > > moderation. After all,
                > > > he's saying to reduce
                > > > "overuse."
                > > >
                > > > Then, again, how does
                > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                > > > not use their computer
                > > > 8 hours a day?
                > > >
                > > > The next question involves
                > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                > > > boy and two days later his
                > > > mother translated (died).
                > > > He indirectly asked if this
                > > > new baby was his mother.
                > > >
                > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                > > > anything at all can happen...
                > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                > > > son, everything is in accord
                > > > with what is best for all around."
                > > >
                > > > Prometheus
                > >
                >
              • Janice Pfeiffer
                Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn t he have simple told the man that the child was or was not the soul of his mother?  Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the child was or was not the soul of his mother?  Yep, he is wishy washy to say the least.  He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly.  I guess he is afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask the same question and he might give the opposite answer.  Smells like a charlatan to me. 
                  --- On Thu, 1/3/13, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, January 3, 2013, 2:58 AM

                   
                  The December 2012
                  Eckankar Mystic World
                  in the Ask the Master
                  section are two interesting
                  questions and answers.

                  The first question has
                  to do with Stress and
                  how to overcome it.

                  HK's answer is wishy-
                  washy at best. He says
                  that stress is "very
                  uncomfortable... Yet
                  stress is a good teacher."

                  Klemp goes on to say
                  that people increase
                  their tolerance to stress
                  by eating healthy, getting
                  enough sleep, and by
                  "Reducing our overuse
                  of electronic devices."

                  In other words it seems
                  Klemp is saying, in a
                  roundabout way, to use
                  moderation. After all,
                  he's saying to reduce
                  "overuse."

                  Then, again, how does
                  a EK staffer at the ESC
                  not use their computer
                  8 hours a day?

                  The next question involves
                  reincarnation. This guy's
                  wife gave birth to a baby
                  boy and two days later his
                  mother translated (died).
                  He indirectly asked if this
                  new baby was his mother.

                  Instead of giving this EKist
                  a direct answer, Klemp,
                  the wishy-washy Mahanta
                  says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                  When it comes to rebirth,
                  anything at all can happen...
                  Whichever Soul is now your
                  son, everything is in accord
                  with what is best for all around."

                  Prometheus

                • Janice Pfeiffer
                  Yep, You guys summed it up very well about what HK does.  Thanks for the info. ... From: iam999freedom Subject:
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yep, You guys summed it up very well about what HK does.  Thanks for the info.

                    --- On Fri, 1/4/13, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

                    From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, January 4, 2013, 1:45 AM

                     
                    Thats an interesting point about HK using Bait and Switch to get new members by promising "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
                    Liberation" but then switching it up and demanding (suggesting) Mahanta Codependency. It would be interesting to see how many Eckists started off on the path with problems with their father. I know I did as well as many others that I know of. It is so easy to get swarmed up in this feel good promise of Self-Mastery while codependency is subtly being reinforced at every turn. Before you know it codependency along with the threats about leaving the path can take a heavy toll on someone with a strong urge for independence.

                    BTW, I think if there is such a thing as a Mahanta then it is our OWN HIGHEST STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

                    I AM

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello I AM and All,
                    > Actually Klemp did cite some
                    > studies and I Googled it myself
                    > and saw that there is proof that
                    > identical twins share similarities.
                    > The mirrored behaviors could
                    > be genetical with brain frequencies
                    > and brain function being the
                    > same due to a quantum mechanical
                    > influence. I threw that last one
                    > in on my own, but who knows?
                    >
                    > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
                    > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
                    > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
                    > use the Lords of Karma ruse
                    > which, BTW, is not solely owned
                    > by Eckankar.
                    >
                    > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
                    > to get new members by promising
                    > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
                    > Liberation" but then he switches
                    > it up and demands (suggests)
                    > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
                    > Team participation in order to,
                    > possibly, get promoted and receive
                    > "Spiritual Rewards."
                    >
                    > It is funny that Klemp claims to
                    > take "Free Will" away from Souls
                    > who join Eckankar and follow him.
                    > Does this mean that those Souls
                    > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
                    > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > iam999freedom wrote:
                    > Hi Prometheus,
                    > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
                    > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
                    > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
                    > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
                    > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
                    > the environment.
                    >
                    > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
                    > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
                    > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
                    >
                    > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
                    > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
                    > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
                    >
                    > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
                    > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
                    > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
                    > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
                    >
                    > I AM
                    >
                    > prometheus_973" wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello I Am,
                    > > Okay, let me give it
                    > > a shot and use some
                    > > excerpts etc.
                    > >
                    > > HK's talking about
                    > > psychological studies
                    > > using identical twins
                    > > (not conjoined) that
                    > > were separated soon
                    > > after birth. They grew
                    > > up elsewhere and had
                    > > different influences
                    > > but dressed the same
                    > > and had the same type
                    > > of dog and gave the
                    > > dog the same name etc.,
                    > > etc.
                    > >
                    > > Thus, it seems that
                    > > Free Will relies upon
                    > > genetics (nature) more
                    > > than it does upon nurture,
                    > > although, HK says that
                    > > Yogi Berra stated that
                    > > "in theory, practice doesn't
                    > > matter; in practice, it does."
                    > >
                    > > BTW- According to Klemp
                    > > "The Lords of Karma have
                    > > selected a body with the
                    > > appropriate genes for each
                    > > student."
                    > >
                    > > However, HK has somewhat
                    > > contradicted what is in CH.
                    > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                    > > that "the spiritual workers
                    > > created man and placed
                    > > within him a living imperishable
                    > > Spirit, called Soul."
                    > >
                    > > There is no other mention
                    > > of these "spiritual workers."
                    > >
                    > > Anywho-
                    > >
                    > > HK is so clever the way
                    > > he'll twist a quote to add
                    > > even more confusion to
                    > > his message of absolute
                    > > servitude and obedience.
                    > >
                    > > I counted HK using "But"
                    > > four times. In an old H.I.
                    > > Letter he said never to
                    > > use "But" with one another
                    > > and that it was a nail in
                    > > the coffin of invention and
                    > > took away from what was
                    > > previously said.
                    > >
                    > > HK:
                    > > "BUT they dug in their heels
                    > > at the finding that such twins'
                    > > IQs were nearly as similar as
                    > > their heights."
                    > >
                    > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                    > > set. A kind owner may let it out
                    > > into the room on occasion. BUT
                    > > it is still in a house."
                    > >
                    > > "Researchers, too, can advance
                    > > only to a fixed point in their studies
                    > > of what elements make up a whole
                    > > individual. BUT they do not have
                    > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                    > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                    > >
                    > > Funny that Klemp states that he
                    > > holds "a magical key" to control
                    > > others like a Black Magician would.
                    > >
                    > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                    > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                    > > must have the right kind and amount
                    > > of daily experiences."
                    > >
                    > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                    > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                    > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                    > > the "right kind and amount of daily
                    > > experiences."
                    > >
                    > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                    > > doesn't like science and psychologists
                    > > since getting locked up in an asylum
                    > > and having to "play-the-game" to
                    > > be released early.
                    > >
                    > > HK states that "Real free will rests
                    > > entirely on trusting the Master's
                    > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                    > > many choices to make in all things
                    > > human and divine."
                    > >
                    > > In other words do as I say not
                    > > as I do and there is no such
                    > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                    > > Does that kind sound like Cult
                    > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                    > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                    > > that "He gives suggestions" and
                    > > "seldom does he issue directives...
                    > > True Free Will of an individual
                    > > stands upon the Mahanta's
                    > > guidance."
                    > >
                    > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                    > > as he speaks from experience:
                    > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                    > > ingrained ideas about patterns
                    > > against them. A subject thinks
                    > > he has the quick mind and eyes
                    > > to catch a Magician in an act,
                    > > even while he is being unburdened
                    > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                    > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                    > > played upon people by illusion."
                    > >
                    > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                    > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                    > > exercises," but write those snail-
                    > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                    > > thinking and so I can use those
                    > > stories for my next book.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > iam999freedom wrote:
                    > > Hi Prometheus,
                    > >
                    > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                    > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                    > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                    > >
                    > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                    > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                    > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                    > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                    > > different character than the other."
                    > >
                    > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                    > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
                    > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                    > >
                    > > I still have yet to receive a response.
                    > >
                    > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
                    > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks,
                    > > I AM
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > prometheus_wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > The December 2012
                    > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                    > > > in the Ask the Master
                    > > > section are two interesting
                    > > > questions and answers.
                    > > >
                    > > > The first question has
                    > > > to do with Stress and
                    > > > how to overcome it.
                    > > >
                    > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                    > > > washy at best. He says
                    > > > that stress is "very
                    > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                    > > > stress is a good teacher."
                    > > >
                    > > > Klemp goes on to say
                    > > > that people increase
                    > > > their tolerance to stress
                    > > > by eating healthy, getting
                    > > > enough sleep, and by
                    > > > "Reducing our overuse
                    > > > of electronic devices."
                    > > >
                    > > > In other words it seems
                    > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                    > > > roundabout way, to use
                    > > > moderation. After all,
                    > > > he's saying to reduce
                    > > > "overuse."
                    > > >
                    > > > Then, again, how does
                    > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                    > > > not use their computer
                    > > > 8 hours a day?
                    > > >
                    > > > The next question involves
                    > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                    > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                    > > > boy and two days later his
                    > > > mother translated (died).
                    > > > He indirectly asked if this
                    > > > new baby was his mother.
                    > > >
                    > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                    > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                    > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                    > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                    > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                    > > > anything at all can happen...
                    > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                    > > > son, everything is in accord
                    > > > with what is best for all around."
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    >

                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Janice, Yes, one would think that a Modern Day Prophet would, at least, attempt to live up to his PR, but that s not the case with Klemp. Why put
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 3, 2013
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                      Hello Janice,
                      Yes, one would think that
                      a "Modern Day Prophet"
                      would, at least, attempt
                      to live up to his PR, but
                      that's not the case with
                      Klemp. Why put himself
                      out there by demonstrating
                      his powers? It's not like
                      he announced to the
                      whole world that he was....
                      oh wait, he did!

                      That was a long time ago
                      and he never did make
                      any predictions as most
                      prophets do. Even Twit
                      made some predictions.
                      But, I'm sure that EKists
                      haven't noticed and don't
                      mine and that's why he
                      doesn't feel any pressure
                      to preform his responsibilities
                      as a real prophet.

                      Instead, Harold is very
                      cautious of being too
                      direct and understood.
                      He'd rather have EKists
                      fill-in the blanks and
                      imagine what they want,
                      need and expect until
                      they go too far and have
                      to have a behaviour
                      adjustment by their RESA.
                      That's why Klemp usually
                      gives a very one dimensional
                      perspective when he tells
                      a story.

                      Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                      why put too much
                      effort into it! And, he
                      figures that all he needs
                      to do is the KISS thing
                      of Keeping It Simple (for)
                      Stupid. Of course EKies
                      will substitute Soul for
                      Stupid but Stupid fits!

                      It's really quite amazing
                      how simple Klemp's
                      redundant message is.
                      If EKists would just compare
                      Klemp's simple minded
                      witticisms to other "spiritual"
                      leaders one would have
                      to wonder what they see
                      in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                      but they just laugh at his
                      quirkiness because he's
                      operating on so many
                      high planes of consciousness
                      simultaneously. LOL!

                      Just Google Kristamurti's
                      quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                      Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                      isn't even in the same ball
                      park with the current Dali
                      Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                      (pg. 385) he claims that
                      Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                      religion while Eckankar
                      is a 14th Plane Religion!
                      But, EKists need to compare
                      the two leaders and how
                      they present themselves
                      and what they have to say.

                      Will ECKists make the
                      comparison? No, of course
                      not! They won't even allow
                      the door to be opened a
                      crack because some light
                      might get in and show
                      them the Truth. They can't
                      handle the Truth and
                      would rather remain ignorant.
                      It's much easier, besides,
                      what would they replace
                      Eckankar with? It's too much
                      responsibility to think for
                      oneself and exercise free
                      will. And, it would make
                      life too lonely to lose all
                      of those EK friends.

                      Prometheus








                      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a charlatan to me.


                      Prometheus wrote:

                      The December 2012
                      Eckankar Mystic World
                      in the Ask the Master
                      section are two interesting
                      questions and answers.

                      The first question has
                      to do with Stress and
                      how to overcome it.

                      HK's answer is wishy-
                      washy at best. He says
                      that stress is "very
                      uncomfortable... Yet
                      stress is a good teacher."

                      Klemp goes on to say
                      that people can increase
                      their tolerance to stress
                      by eating healthy, getting
                      enough sleep, and by
                      "Reducing our overuse
                      of electronic devices."

                      In other words it seems
                      Klemp is saying, in a
                      roundabout way, to use
                      moderation. After all,
                      he's saying to reduce
                      "overuse."

                      Then, again, how does
                      a EK staffer at the ESC
                      not use their computer
                      8 hours a day?

                      The next question involves
                      reincarnation. This guy's
                      wife gave birth to a baby
                      boy and two days later his
                      mother translated (died).
                      He indirectly asked if this
                      new baby was his mother.

                      Instead of giving this EKist
                      a direct answer, Klemp,
                      the wishy-washy Mahanta
                      says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                      When it comes to rebirth,
                      anything at all can happen...
                      Whichever Soul is now your
                      son, everything is in accord
                      with what is best for all around."

                      Prometheus
                    • Non
                      So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn t do his own spiritual exercises,
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 5, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master etc.

                        Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)

                        They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.

                        Non ;)

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                        >
                        Hello Janice,
                        Yes, one would think that
                        a "Modern Day Prophet"
                        would, at least, attempt
                        to live up to his PR, but
                        that's not the case with
                        Klemp. Why put himself
                        out there by demonstrating
                        his powers? It's not like
                        he announced to the
                        whole world that he was....
                        oh wait, he did!

                        That was a long time ago
                        and he never did make
                        any predictions as most
                        prophets do. Even Twit
                        made some predictions.
                        But, I'm sure that EKists
                        haven't noticed and don't
                        mine and that's why he
                        doesn't feel any pressure
                        to preform his responsibilities
                        as a real prophet.

                        Instead, Harold is very
                        cautious of being too
                        direct and understood.
                        He'd rather have EKists
                        fill-in the blanks and
                        imagine what they want,
                        need and expect until
                        they go too far and have
                        to have a behaviour
                        adjustment by their RESA.
                        That's why Klemp usually
                        gives a very one dimensional
                        perspective when he tells
                        a story.

                        Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                        why put too much
                        effort into it! And, he
                        figures that all he needs
                        to do is the KISS thing
                        of Keeping It Simple (for)
                        Stupid. Of course EKies
                        will substitute Soul for
                        Stupid but Stupid fits!

                        It's really quite amazing
                        how simple Klemp's
                        redundant message is.
                        If EKists would just compare
                        Klemp's simple minded
                        witticisms to other "spiritual"
                        leaders one would have
                        to wonder what they see
                        in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                        but they just laugh at his
                        quirkiness because he's
                        operating on so many
                        high planes of consciousness
                        simultaneously. LOL!

                        Just Google Kristamurti's
                        quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                        Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                        isn't even in the same ball
                        park with the current Dali
                        Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                        (pg. 385) he claims that
                        Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                        religion while Eckankar
                        is a 14th Plane Religion!
                        But, EKists need to compare
                        the two leaders and how
                        they present themselves
                        and what they have to say.

                        Will ECKists make the
                        comparison? No, of course
                        not! They won't even allow
                        the door to be opened a
                        crack because some light
                        might get in and show
                        them the Truth. They can't
                        handle the Truth and
                        would rather remain ignorant.
                        It's much easier, besides,
                        what would they replace
                        Eckankar with? It's too much
                        responsibility to think for
                        oneself and exercise free
                        will. And, it would make
                        life too lonely to lose all
                        of those EK friends.

                        Prometheus








                        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
                        child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
                        least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                        afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                        the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                        charlatan to me.


                        Prometheus wrote:

                        The December 2012
                        Eckankar Mystic World
                        in the Ask the Master
                        section are two interesting
                        questions and answers.

                        The first question has
                        to do with Stress and
                        how to overcome it.

                        HK's answer is wishy-
                        washy at best. He says
                        that stress is "very
                        uncomfortable... Yet
                        stress is a good teacher."

                        Klemp goes on to say
                        that people can increase
                        their tolerance to stress
                        by eating healthy, getting
                        enough sleep, and by
                        "Reducing our overuse
                        of electronic devices."

                        In other words it seems
                        Klemp is saying, in a
                        roundabout way, to use
                        moderation. After all,
                        he's saying to reduce
                        "overuse."

                        Then, again, how does
                        a EK staffer at the ESC
                        not use their computer
                        8 hours a day?

                        The next question involves
                        reincarnation. This guy's
                        wife gave birth to a baby
                        boy and two days later his
                        mother translated (died).
                        He indirectly asked if this
                        new baby was his mother.

                        Instead of giving this EKist
                        a direct answer, Klemp,
                        the wishy-washy Mahanta
                        says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                        When it comes to rebirth,
                        anything at all can happen...
                        Whichever Soul is now your
                        son, everything is in accord
                        with what is best for all around."

                        Prometheus
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Non and All, Thanks for the insightful summary. I was exploring the dogma of some fundamentalist charismatic Christian churches and saw a reference to a
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Non and All,
                          Thanks for the insightful
                          summary. I was exploring
                          the dogma of some fundamentalist
                          charismatic Christian churches
                          and saw a reference to a
                          minor (Jewish) prophet:

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk

                          This person is mentioned
                          not by Jesus but by one of
                          his apostles in order to inspire
                          Faith.

                          Even when God seems to
                          turn his back and: causes
                          crops to fail; flocks to be
                          lost; cities attacked and
                          overrun by your enemies;
                          people brutalized, tortured
                          and killed, one is to have
                          Faith in God and a hereafter
                          reward for keeping this
                          faith. God's ego needs
                          you to believe in him
                          regardless of what pain
                          he allows to befall you.

                          One needs to project
                          a sense of hope in order
                          to better endure life, as
                          it is, no matter how bad.

                          And, it's easier to face these
                          challenges when you believe
                          that God is on your side and
                          not that of your oppressor.

                          However, does God really
                          take sides? It seems that God
                          is/was created in man's image.

                          All of this, it seems, is simply
                          an experiment to see if we
                          are all capable of evolving
                          into our "spiritual" potential.
                          Are we to become more than
                          merely a divine thought?
                          Maybe there is something
                          more to that piece of a mirror
                          analogy.

                          Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                          has the belief that you (and your
                          fellow believers or countrymen)
                          deserved the punishments as
                          repayment for sin. Some call it
                          Karma or cause and effect, or
                          what you sow you reap. Plus,
                          most religions see everyday
                          living and hardships as a test
                          of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                          to donate money to support
                          the specific dogma that, basically,
                          says and promises the same
                          or similar things in the imagined
                          hereafter.

                          Plus, each religion has always
                          blamed the non-believers for
                          the sins that they suffer under
                          as well. Eckankar is no different
                          and Klemp is more like these
                          preachers than EKists could ever
                          admit.

                          Well, got to go now....
                          I just had some thoughts
                          to share.

                          Prometheus

                          "Non" wrote:
                          So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                          compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises,
                          because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe
                          a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
                          material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
                          "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
                          and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
                          crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master
                          etc.

                          Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new
                          World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
                          anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
                          admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
                          always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet
                          in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
                          stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck
                          master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
                          is a more appropriate title to his life story.)

                          They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
                          think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                          advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on
                          the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                          drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it
                          is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.

                          Non ;)

                          prometheus wrote:

                          Hello Janice,
                          Yes, one would think that
                          a "Modern Day Prophet"
                          would, at least, attempt
                          to live up to his PR, but
                          that's not the case with
                          Klemp. Why put himself
                          out there by demonstrating
                          his powers? It's not like
                          he announced to the
                          whole world that he was....
                          oh wait, he did!

                          That was a long time ago
                          and he never did make
                          any predictions as most
                          prophets do. Even Twit
                          made some predictions.
                          But, I'm sure that EKists
                          haven't noticed and don't
                          mine and that's why he
                          doesn't feel any pressure
                          to preform his responsibilities
                          as a real prophet.

                          Instead, Harold is very
                          cautious of being too
                          direct and understood.
                          He'd rather have EKists
                          fill-in the blanks and
                          imagine what they want,
                          need and expect until
                          they go too far and have
                          to have a behaviour
                          adjustment by their RESA.
                          That's why Klemp usually
                          gives a very one dimensional
                          perspective when he tells
                          a story.

                          Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                          why put too much
                          effort into it! And, he
                          figures that all he needs
                          to do is the KISS thing
                          of Keeping It Simple (for)
                          Stupid. Of course EKies
                          will substitute Soul for
                          Stupid but Stupid fits!

                          It's really quite amazing
                          how simple Klemp's
                          redundant message is.
                          If EKists would just compare
                          Klemp's simple minded
                          witticisms to other "spiritual"
                          leaders one would have
                          to wonder what they see
                          in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                          but they just laugh at his
                          quirkiness because he's
                          operating on so many
                          high planes of consciousness
                          simultaneously. LOL!

                          Just Google Kristamurti's
                          quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                          Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                          isn't even in the same ball
                          park with the current Dali
                          Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                          (pg. 385) he claims that
                          Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                          religion while Eckankar
                          is a 14th Plane Religion!
                          But, EKists need to compare
                          the two leaders and how
                          they present themselves
                          and what they have to say.

                          Will ECKists make the
                          comparison? No, of course
                          not! They won't even allow
                          the door to be opened a
                          crack because some light
                          might get in and show
                          them the Truth. They can't
                          handle the Truth and
                          would rather remain ignorant.
                          It's much easier, besides,
                          what would they replace
                          Eckankar with? It's too much
                          responsibility to think for
                          oneself and exercise free
                          will. And, it would make
                          life too lonely to lose all
                          of those EK friends.

                          Prometheus


                          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                          Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
                          child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
                          least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                          afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                          the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                          charlatan to me.


                          Prometheus wrote:

                          The December 2012
                          Eckankar Mystic World
                          in the Ask the Master
                          section are two interesting
                          questions and answers.

                          The first question has
                          to do with Stress and
                          how to overcome it.

                          HK's answer is wishy-
                          washy at best. He says
                          that stress is "very
                          uncomfortable... Yet
                          stress is a good teacher."

                          Klemp goes on to say
                          that people can increase
                          their tolerance to stress
                          by eating healthy, getting
                          enough sleep, and by
                          "Reducing our overuse
                          of electronic devices."

                          In other words it seems
                          Klemp is saying, in a
                          roundabout way, to use
                          moderation. After all,
                          he's saying to reduce
                          "overuse."

                          Then, again, how does
                          a EK staffer at the ESC
                          not use their computer
                          8 hours a day?

                          The next question involves
                          reincarnation. This guy's
                          wife gave birth to a baby
                          boy and two days later his
                          mother translated (died).
                          He indirectly asked if this
                          new baby was his mother.

                          Instead of giving this EKist
                          a direct answer, Klemp,
                          the wishy-washy Mahanta
                          says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                          When it comes to rebirth,
                          anything at all can happen...
                          Whichever Soul is now your
                          son, everything is in accord
                          with what is best for all around."

                          Prometheus
                        • iam999freedom
                          Yes Non, combine authoritarianism with unconditional love for the master and you get a submissive control pattern as your reward. Buyer beware! Prometheus, you
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 6, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Yes Non, combine authoritarianism with unconditional love for the master and you get a submissive control pattern as your reward. Buyer beware!

                            Prometheus, you wrote:
                            "All of this, it seems, is simply
                            an experiment to see if we
                            are all capable of evolving
                            into our "spiritual" potential.
                            Are we to become more than
                            merely a divine thought?
                            Maybe there is something
                            more to that piece of a mirror
                            analogy."

                            I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again. I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the end result of the mirror analagy.

                            I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

                            I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event. Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more meaning than being in a pinball machine.

                            Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

                            Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think that it would ever be necessary.

                            Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

                            I AM

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Non and All,
                            > Thanks for the insightful
                            > summary. I was exploring
                            > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                            > charismatic Christian churches
                            > and saw a reference to a
                            > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                            >
                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                            >
                            > This person is mentioned
                            > not by Jesus but by one of
                            > his apostles in order to inspire
                            > Faith.
                            >
                            > Even when God seems to
                            > turn his back and: causes
                            > crops to fail; flocks to be
                            > lost; cities attacked and
                            > overrun by your enemies;
                            > people brutalized, tortured
                            > and killed, one is to have
                            > Faith in God and a hereafter
                            > reward for keeping this
                            > faith. God's ego needs
                            > you to believe in him
                            > regardless of what pain
                            > he allows to befall you.
                            >
                            > One needs to project
                            > a sense of hope in order
                            > to better endure life, as
                            > it is, no matter how bad.
                            >
                            > And, it's easier to face these
                            > challenges when you believe
                            > that God is on your side and
                            > not that of your oppressor.
                            >
                            > However, does God really
                            > take sides? It seems that God
                            > is/was created in man's image.
                            >
                            > All of this, it seems, is simply
                            > an experiment to see if we
                            > are all capable of evolving
                            > into our "spiritual" potential.
                            > Are we to become more than
                            > merely a divine thought?
                            > Maybe there is something
                            > more to that piece of a mirror
                            > analogy.
                            >
                            > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                            > has the belief that you (and your
                            > fellow believers or countrymen)
                            > deserved the punishments as
                            > repayment for sin. Some call it
                            > Karma or cause and effect, or
                            > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                            > most religions see everyday
                            > living and hardships as a test
                            > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                            > to donate money to support
                            > the specific dogma that, basically,
                            > says and promises the same
                            > or similar things in the imagined
                            > hereafter.
                            >
                            > Plus, each religion has always
                            > blamed the non-believers for
                            > the sins that they suffer under
                            > as well. Eckankar is no different
                            > and Klemp is more like these
                            > preachers than EKists could ever
                            > admit.
                            >
                            > Well, got to go now....
                            > I just had some thoughts
                            > to share.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > "Non" wrote:
                            > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                            > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises,
                            > because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe
                            > a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
                            > material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
                            > "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
                            > and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
                            > crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master
                            > etc.
                            >
                            > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new
                            > World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
                            > anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
                            > admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
                            > always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet
                            > in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
                            > stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck
                            > master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
                            > is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                            >
                            > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
                            > think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                            > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on
                            > the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                            > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it
                            > is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                            >
                            > Non ;)
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Janice,
                            > Yes, one would think that
                            > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                            > would, at least, attempt
                            > to live up to his PR, but
                            > that's not the case with
                            > Klemp. Why put himself
                            > out there by demonstrating
                            > his powers? It's not like
                            > he announced to the
                            > whole world that he was....
                            > oh wait, he did!
                            >
                            > That was a long time ago
                            > and he never did make
                            > any predictions as most
                            > prophets do. Even Twit
                            > made some predictions.
                            > But, I'm sure that EKists
                            > haven't noticed and don't
                            > mine and that's why he
                            > doesn't feel any pressure
                            > to preform his responsibilities
                            > as a real prophet.
                            >
                            > Instead, Harold is very
                            > cautious of being too
                            > direct and understood.
                            > He'd rather have EKists
                            > fill-in the blanks and
                            > imagine what they want,
                            > need and expect until
                            > they go too far and have
                            > to have a behaviour
                            > adjustment by their RESA.
                            > That's why Klemp usually
                            > gives a very one dimensional
                            > perspective when he tells
                            > a story.
                            >
                            > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                            > why put too much
                            > effort into it! And, he
                            > figures that all he needs
                            > to do is the KISS thing
                            > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                            > Stupid. Of course EKies
                            > will substitute Soul for
                            > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                            >
                            > It's really quite amazing
                            > how simple Klemp's
                            > redundant message is.
                            > If EKists would just compare
                            > Klemp's simple minded
                            > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                            > leaders one would have
                            > to wonder what they see
                            > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                            > but they just laugh at his
                            > quirkiness because he's
                            > operating on so many
                            > high planes of consciousness
                            > simultaneously. LOL!
                            >
                            > Just Google Kristamurti's
                            > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                            > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                            > isn't even in the same ball
                            > park with the current Dali
                            > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                            > (pg. 385) he claims that
                            > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                            > religion while Eckankar
                            > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                            > But, EKists need to compare
                            > the two leaders and how
                            > they present themselves
                            > and what they have to say.
                            >
                            > Will ECKists make the
                            > comparison? No, of course
                            > not! They won't even allow
                            > the door to be opened a
                            > crack because some light
                            > might get in and show
                            > them the Truth. They can't
                            > handle the Truth and
                            > would rather remain ignorant.
                            > It's much easier, besides,
                            > what would they replace
                            > Eckankar with? It's too much
                            > responsibility to think for
                            > oneself and exercise free
                            > will. And, it would make
                            > life too lonely to lose all
                            > of those EK friends.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
                            > child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
                            > least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                            > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                            > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                            > charlatan to me.
                            >
                            >
                            > Prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > The December 2012
                            > Eckankar Mystic World
                            > in the Ask the Master
                            > section are two interesting
                            > questions and answers.
                            >
                            > The first question has
                            > to do with Stress and
                            > how to overcome it.
                            >
                            > HK's answer is wishy-
                            > washy at best. He says
                            > that stress is "very
                            > uncomfortable... Yet
                            > stress is a good teacher."
                            >
                            > Klemp goes on to say
                            > that people can increase
                            > their tolerance to stress
                            > by eating healthy, getting
                            > enough sleep, and by
                            > "Reducing our overuse
                            > of electronic devices."
                            >
                            > In other words it seems
                            > Klemp is saying, in a
                            > roundabout way, to use
                            > moderation. After all,
                            > he's saying to reduce
                            > "overuse."
                            >
                            > Then, again, how does
                            > a EK staffer at the ESC
                            > not use their computer
                            > 8 hours a day?
                            >
                            > The next question involves
                            > reincarnation. This guy's
                            > wife gave birth to a baby
                            > boy and two days later his
                            > mother translated (died).
                            > He indirectly asked if this
                            > new baby was his mother.
                            >
                            > Instead of giving this EKist
                            > a direct answer, Klemp,
                            > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                            > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                            > When it comes to rebirth,
                            > anything at all can happen...
                            > Whichever Soul is now your
                            > son, everything is in accord
                            > with what is best for all around."
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello I Am, Non, and All, I m not so sure that humans will ever become like, God, our imagined or possible creator. And, if at all, certainly not in any
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                              Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                              I'm not so sure that humans
                              will ever become like, God,
                              our imagined or possible
                              creator. And, if at all, certainly
                              not in any lifetime soon.

                              But, it could be that the
                              universe(s) just happened
                              and that the remnants of
                              other life forms were spread
                              to this planet, and others,
                              via space rubble... from
                              destroyed civilizations
                              and planets. Or, was it an
                              intentional seeding by an
                              advanced race... which was,
                              itself, seeded by another
                              advanced race etc.

                              Maybe the "spiritual"
                              experiences we have
                              are the result of
                              interaction with the
                              quantum mechanical
                              field?

                              Anyway, it seems to me
                              that what really matters
                              are relationships. It's our
                              relationships with others,
                              even strangers, that matter
                              most. This is how we really
                              learn and grow. Loving
                              relationships are valuable.

                              Klemp, and others like
                              him, are: liars; posers;
                              have arrested development;
                              are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                              and are even psychopathic.
                              They are incapable of learning,
                              or caring about others (are
                              unloving) and attempt to
                              impede social progress and
                              justice. They use the rest of
                              us for their own personal
                              greed and selfish desires.

                              Then, again, this strife and
                              uncertainly (stress) that is
                              created can make life interesting
                              and a challenge, although,
                              it can/will also be physically
                              and emotionally painful.

                              But, having a regular life
                              without additional commitments
                              and involvements can also
                              offer rewarding experiences
                              and insights. We are never
                              all that alone. However, I'm
                              not sure how peace of any
                              sort (except in one's own mind)
                              will ever happen in a world
                              controlled by sociopaths.

                              One must care about everyone
                              and have caring relationships
                              with people in order for humankind
                              to advance and survive. To me,
                              this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                              I almost included animals, too,
                              but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                              include "caring" about them (all)
                              too.

                              How can one really "care" about
                              the sociopaths and psychopaths
                              except to keep them away from
                              nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                              people.

                              When one thinks about it the
                              definition of what's "normal"
                              keeps changing. The extroverts
                              seem to be more pathological
                              than the introverts don't you
                              agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                              to force us introverts to become
                              extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                              loves company I suppose or is
                              it that an army of glassy-eyed
                              introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                              is more intimidating.

                              In any case the idea of a "God"
                              to worship and viewed as being
                              "involved" in our lives detracts
                              from "us" being involved in our
                              lives because of the differences
                              we see in one another. This is
                              why there are so many different
                              religious dogmas of what's right
                              and wrong.

                              Therefore, the differences in the
                              way in which "God" is worshipped,
                              for me, shows that "God" does not
                              exist. We don't want to be alone
                              nor take responsibility for our own
                              actions. Thus, we blame God or
                              use God as our scape goat.

                              There are major flaws with all
                              of these religions and the so-called
                              "source" of their scriptures. It's
                              all hearsay and the only thing
                              that, supposedly, gives them
                              validation is that these various
                              people in history/myth that the
                              scribes wrote about are claimed
                              to have said or done some nice,
                              inspirational, brave, or insightful
                              things a very long time ago. Age/
                              time (being ancient) seems to
                              have given them credibility, because
                              it is believed and taught that
                              only Divine Intercession could
                              have been the source for their
                              Divine Inspiration.

                              But, IMO, there are many people,
                              today, who are not even followers
                              of these dogmas that are as, or
                              more: honest; brave; insightful;
                              inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                              than the prophets, saints, and founders
                              of these major and minor religions.
                              Many of these people inspired
                              others by never giving up in time
                              of conflict because, sometimes,
                              there weren't many other choices.
                              Even those who did give up and
                              had bad things befall them, still,
                              maintained their faith and this
                              fact turned them into "prophets"
                              or saints. If this is the standard
                              for religions there are an awful
                              lot of believers and faithful, today,
                              that just as deluded and desperate.

                              Prometheus


                              iam999freedom" wrote:
                              Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                              with unconditional love for the
                              master and you get a submissive
                              control pattern as your reward.
                              Buyer beware!

                              Prometheus, you wrote:
                              "All of this, it seems, is simply
                              an experiment to see if we
                              are all capable of evolving
                              into our "spiritual" potential.
                              Are we to become more than
                              merely a divine thought?
                              Maybe there is something
                              more to that piece of a mirror
                              analogy."

                              I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                              shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                              I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                              stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                              the end result of the mirror analagy.

                              I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                              see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

                              I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                              or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                              Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                              has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                              lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                              from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                              meaning than being in a pinball machine.

                              Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                              spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                              lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                              and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                              needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                              would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                              It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

                              Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                              that it would ever be necessary.

                              Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

                              I AM

                              prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Non and All,
                              > Thanks for the insightful
                              > summary. I was exploring
                              > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                              > charismatic Christian churches
                              > and saw a reference to a
                              > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                              >
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                              >
                              > This person is mentioned
                              > not by Jesus but by one of
                              > his apostles in order to inspire
                              > Faith.
                              >
                              > Even when God seems to
                              > turn his back and: causes
                              > crops to fail; flocks to be
                              > lost; cities attacked and
                              > overrun by your enemies;
                              > people brutalized, tortured
                              > and killed, one is to have
                              > Faith in God and a hereafter
                              > reward for keeping this
                              > faith. God's ego needs
                              > you to believe in him
                              > regardless of what pain
                              > he allows to befall you.
                              >
                              > One needs to project
                              > a sense of hope in order
                              > to better endure life, as
                              > it is, no matter how bad.
                              >
                              > And, it's easier to face these
                              > challenges when you believe
                              > that God is on your side and
                              > not that of your oppressor.
                              >
                              > However, does God really
                              > take sides? It seems that God
                              > is/was created in man's image.
                              >
                              > All of this, it seems, is simply
                              > an experiment to see if we
                              > are all capable of evolving
                              > into our "spiritual" potential.
                              > Are we to become more than
                              > merely a divine thought?
                              > Maybe there is something
                              > more to that piece of a mirror
                              > analogy.
                              >
                              > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                              > has the belief that you (and your
                              > fellow believers or countrymen)
                              > deserved the punishments as
                              > repayment for sin. Some call it
                              > Karma or cause and effect, or
                              > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                              > most religions see everyday
                              > living and hardships as a test
                              > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                              > to donate money to support
                              > the specific dogma that, basically,
                              > says and promises the same
                              > or similar things in the imagined
                              > hereafter.
                              >
                              > Plus, each religion has always
                              > blamed the non-believers for
                              > the sins that they suffer under
                              > as well. Eckankar is no different
                              > and Klemp is more like these
                              > preachers than EKists could ever
                              > admit.
                              >
                              > Well, got to go now....
                              > I just had some thoughts
                              > to share.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              "Non" wrote:
                              So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                              compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                              exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                              beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                              from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                              tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                              he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                              answers to ask the master etc.
                              >
                              Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                              as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                              not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                              is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                              Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                              leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                              him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                              with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                              by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                              >
                              They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                              you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                              advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                              on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                              drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                              it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                              >
                              > Non ;)
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Janice,
                              > Yes, one would think that
                              > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                              > would, at least, attempt
                              > to live up to his PR, but
                              > that's not the case with
                              > Klemp. Why put himself
                              > out there by demonstrating
                              > his powers? It's not like
                              > he announced to the
                              > whole world that he was....
                              > oh wait, he did!
                              >
                              > That was a long time ago
                              > and he never did make
                              > any predictions as most
                              > prophets do. Even Twit
                              > made some predictions.
                              > But, I'm sure that EKists
                              > haven't noticed and don't
                              > mine and that's why he
                              > doesn't feel any pressure
                              > to preform his responsibilities
                              > as a real prophet.
                              >
                              > Instead, Harold is very
                              > cautious of being too
                              > direct and understood.
                              > He'd rather have EKists
                              > fill-in the blanks and
                              > imagine what they want,
                              > need and expect until
                              > they go too far and have
                              > to have a behaviour
                              > adjustment by their RESA.
                              > That's why Klemp usually
                              > gives a very one dimensional
                              > perspective when he tells
                              > a story.
                              >
                              > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                              > why put too much
                              > effort into it! And, he
                              > figures that all he needs
                              > to do is the KISS thing
                              > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                              > Stupid. Of course EKies
                              > will substitute Soul for
                              > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                              >
                              > It's really quite amazing
                              > how simple Klemp's
                              > redundant message is.
                              > If EKists would just compare
                              > Klemp's simple minded
                              > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                              > leaders one would have
                              > to wonder what they see
                              > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                              > but they just laugh at his
                              > quirkiness because he's
                              > operating on so many
                              > high planes of consciousness
                              > simultaneously. LOL!
                              >
                              > Just Google Kristamurti's
                              > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                              > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                              > isn't even in the same ball
                              > park with the current Dali
                              > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                              > (pg. 385) he claims that
                              > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                              > religion while Eckankar
                              > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                              > But, EKists need to compare
                              > the two leaders and how
                              > they present themselves
                              > and what they have to say.
                              >
                              > Will ECKists make the
                              > comparison? No, of course
                              > not! They won't even allow
                              > the door to be opened a
                              > crack because some light
                              > might get in and show
                              > them the Truth. They can't
                              > handle the Truth and
                              > would rather remain ignorant.
                              > It's much easier, besides,
                              > what would they replace
                              > Eckankar with? It's too much
                              > responsibility to think for
                              > oneself and exercise free
                              > will. And, it would make
                              > life too lonely to lose all
                              > of those EK friends.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                              > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                              > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                              > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                              > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                              > charlatan to me.
                              >
                              >
                              > Prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > The December 2012
                              > Eckankar Mystic World
                              > in the Ask the Master
                              > section are two interesting
                              > questions and answers.
                              >
                              > The first question has
                              > to do with Stress and
                              > how to overcome it.
                              >
                              > HK's answer is wishy-
                              > washy at best. He says
                              > that stress is "very
                              > uncomfortable... Yet
                              > stress is a good teacher."
                              >
                              > Klemp goes on to say
                              > that people can increase
                              > their tolerance to stress
                              > by eating healthy, getting
                              > enough sleep, and by
                              > "Reducing our overuse
                              > of electronic devices."
                              >
                              > In other words it seems
                              > Klemp is saying, in a
                              > roundabout way, to use
                              > moderation. After all,
                              > he's saying to reduce
                              > "overuse."
                              >
                              > Then, again, how does
                              > a EK staffer at the ESC
                              > not use their computer
                              > 8 hours a day?
                              >
                              > The next question involves
                              > reincarnation. This guy's
                              > wife gave birth to a baby
                              > boy and two days later his
                              > mother translated (died).
                              > He indirectly asked if this
                              > new baby was his mother.
                              >
                              > Instead of giving this EKist
                              > a direct answer, Klemp,
                              > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                              > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                              > When it comes to rebirth,
                              > anything at all can happen...
                              > Whichever Soul is now your
                              > son, everything is in accord
                              > with what is best for all around."
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                            • Janice Pfeiffer
                              Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                                Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 

                                --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM

                                 
                                Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                I'm not so sure that humans
                                will ever become like, God,
                                our imagined or possible
                                creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                not in any lifetime soon.

                                But, it could be that the
                                universe(s) just happened
                                and that the remnants of
                                other life forms were spread
                                to this planet, and others,
                                via space rubble... from
                                destroyed civilizations
                                and planets. Or, was it an
                                intentional seeding by an
                                advanced race... which was,
                                itself, seeded by another
                                advanced race etc.

                                Maybe the "spiritual"
                                experiences we have
                                are the result of
                                interaction with the
                                quantum mechanical
                                field?

                                Anyway, it seems to me
                                that what really matters
                                are relationships. It's our
                                relationships with others,
                                even strangers, that matter
                                most. This is how we really
                                learn and grow. Loving
                                relationships are valuable.

                                Klemp, and others like
                                him, are: liars; posers;
                                have arrested development;
                                are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                and are even psychopathic.
                                They are incapable of learning,
                                or caring about others (are
                                unloving) and attempt to
                                impede social progress and
                                justice. They use the rest of
                                us for their own personal
                                greed and selfish desires.

                                Then, again, this strife and
                                uncertainly (stress) that is
                                created can make life interesting
                                and a challenge, although,
                                it can/will also be physically
                                and emotionally painful.

                                But, having a regular life
                                without additional commitments
                                and involvements can also
                                offer rewarding experiences
                                and insights. We are never
                                all that alone. However, I'm
                                not sure how peace of any
                                sort (except in one's own mind)
                                will ever happen in a world
                                controlled by sociopaths.

                                One must care about everyone
                                and have caring relationships
                                with people in order for humankind
                                to advance and survive. To me,
                                this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                I almost included animals, too,
                                but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                include "caring" about them (all)
                                too.

                                How can one really "care" about
                                the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                except to keep them away from
                                nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                people.

                                When one thinks about it the
                                definition of what's "normal"
                                keeps changing. The extroverts
                                seem to be more pathological
                                than the introverts don't you
                                agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                to force us introverts to become
                                extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                loves company I suppose or is
                                it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                is more intimidating.

                                In any case the idea of a "God"
                                to worship and viewed as being
                                "involved" in our lives detracts
                                from "us" being involved in our
                                lives because of the differences
                                we see in one another. This is
                                why there are so many different
                                religious dogmas of what's right
                                and wrong.

                                Therefore, the differences in the
                                way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                for me, shows that "God" does not
                                exist. We don't want to be alone
                                nor take responsibility for our own
                                actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                use God as our scape goat.

                                There are major flaws with all
                                of these religions and the so-called
                                "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                all hearsay and the only thing
                                that, supposedly, gives them
                                validation is that these various
                                people in history/myth that the
                                scribes wrote about are claimed
                                to have said or done some nice,
                                inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                things a very long time ago. Age/
                                time (being ancient) seems to
                                have given them credibility, because
                                it is believed and taught that
                                only Divine Intercession could
                                have been the source for their
                                Divine Inspiration.

                                But, IMO, there are many people,
                                today, who are not even followers
                                of these dogmas that are as, or
                                more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                of these major and minor religions.
                                Many of these people inspired
                                others by never giving up in time
                                of conflict because, sometimes,
                                there weren't many other choices.
                                Even those who did give up and
                                had bad things befall them, still,
                                maintained their faith and this
                                fact turned them into "prophets"
                                or saints. If this is the standard
                                for religions there are an awful
                                lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                that just as deluded and desperate.

                                Prometheus


                                iam999freedom" wrote:
                                Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                with unconditional love for the
                                master and you get a submissive
                                control pattern as your reward.
                                Buyer beware!

                                Prometheus, you wrote:
                                "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                an experiment to see if we
                                are all capable of evolving
                                into our "spiritual" potential.
                                Are we to become more than
                                merely a divine thought?
                                Maybe there is something
                                more to that piece of a mirror
                                analogy."

                                I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                the end result of the mirror analagy.

                                I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

                                I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                meaning than being in a pinball machine.

                                Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

                                Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                that it would ever be necessary.

                                Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

                                I AM

                                prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Non and All,
                                > Thanks for the insightful
                                > summary. I was exploring
                                > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                > charismatic Christian churches
                                > and saw a reference to a
                                > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                >
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                >
                                > This person is mentioned
                                > not by Jesus but by one of
                                > his apostles in order to inspire
                                > Faith.
                                >
                                > Even when God seems to
                                > turn his back and: causes
                                > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                > lost; cities attacked and
                                > overrun by your enemies;
                                > people brutalized, tortured
                                > and killed, one is to have
                                > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                > reward for keeping this
                                > faith. God's ego needs
                                > you to believe in him
                                > regardless of what pain
                                > he allows to befall you.
                                >
                                > One needs to project
                                > a sense of hope in order
                                > to better endure life, as
                                > it is, no matter how bad.
                                >
                                > And, it's easier to face these
                                > challenges when you believe
                                > that God is on your side and
                                > not that of your oppressor.
                                >
                                > However, does God really
                                > take sides? It seems that God
                                > is/was created in man's image.
                                >
                                > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                > an experiment to see if we
                                > are all capable of evolving
                                > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                > Are we to become more than
                                > merely a divine thought?
                                > Maybe there is something
                                > more to that piece of a mirror
                                > analogy.
                                >
                                > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                > has the belief that you (and your
                                > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                > deserved the punishments as
                                > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                > most religions see everyday
                                > living and hardships as a test
                                > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                > to donate money to support
                                > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                > says and promises the same
                                > or similar things in the imagined
                                > hereafter.
                                >
                                > Plus, each religion has always
                                > blamed the non-believers for
                                > the sins that they suffer under
                                > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                > and Klemp is more like these
                                > preachers than EKists could ever
                                > admit.
                                >
                                > Well, got to go now....
                                > I just had some thoughts
                                > to share.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                "Non" wrote:
                                So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                answers to ask the master etc.
                                >
                                Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                >
                                They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                >
                                > Non ;)
                                >
                                > prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Janice,
                                > Yes, one would think that
                                > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                > would, at least, attempt
                                > to live up to his PR, but
                                > that's not the case with
                                > Klemp. Why put himself
                                > out there by demonstrating
                                > his powers? It's not like
                                > he announced to the
                                > whole world that he was....
                                > oh wait, he did!
                                >
                                > That was a long time ago
                                > and he never did make
                                > any predictions as most
                                > prophets do. Even Twit
                                > made some predictions.
                                > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                > haven't noticed and don't
                                > mine and that's why he
                                > doesn't feel any pressure
                                > to preform his responsibilities
                                > as a real prophet.
                                >
                                > Instead, Harold is very
                                > cautious of being too
                                > direct and understood.
                                > He'd rather have EKists
                                > fill-in the blanks and
                                > imagine what they want,
                                > need and expect until
                                > they go too far and have
                                > to have a behaviour
                                > adjustment by their RESA.
                                > That's why Klemp usually
                                > gives a very one dimensional
                                > perspective when he tells
                                > a story.
                                >
                                > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                > why put too much
                                > effort into it! And, he
                                > figures that all he needs
                                > to do is the KISS thing
                                > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                > will substitute Soul for
                                > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                >
                                > It's really quite amazing
                                > how simple Klemp's
                                > redundant message is.
                                > If EKists would just compare
                                > Klemp's simple minded
                                > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                > leaders one would have
                                > to wonder what they see
                                > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                > but they just laugh at his
                                > quirkiness because he's
                                > operating on so many
                                > high planes of consciousness
                                > simultaneously. LOL!
                                >
                                > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                > isn't even in the same ball
                                > park with the current Dali
                                > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                > religion while Eckankar
                                > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                > But, EKists need to compare
                                > the two leaders and how
                                > they present themselves
                                > and what they have to say.
                                >
                                > Will ECKists make the
                                > comparison? No, of course
                                > not! They won't even allow
                                > the door to be opened a
                                > crack because some light
                                > might get in and show
                                > them the Truth. They can't
                                > handle the Truth and
                                > would rather remain ignorant.
                                > It's much easier, besides,
                                > what would they replace
                                > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                > responsibility to think for
                                > oneself and exercise free
                                > will. And, it would make
                                > life too lonely to lose all
                                > of those EK friends.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                > charlatan to me.
                                >
                                >
                                > Prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > The December 2012
                                > Eckankar Mystic World
                                > in the Ask the Master
                                > section are two interesting
                                > questions and answers.
                                >
                                > The first question has
                                > to do with Stress and
                                > how to overcome it.
                                >
                                > HK's answer is wishy-
                                > washy at best. He says
                                > that stress is "very
                                > uncomfortable... Yet
                                > stress is a good teacher."
                                >
                                > Klemp goes on to say
                                > that people can increase
                                > their tolerance to stress
                                > by eating healthy, getting
                                > enough sleep, and by
                                > "Reducing our overuse
                                > of electronic devices."
                                >
                                > In other words it seems
                                > Klemp is saying, in a
                                > roundabout way, to use
                                > moderation. After all,
                                > he's saying to reduce
                                > "overuse."
                                >
                                > Then, again, how does
                                > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                > not use their computer
                                > 8 hours a day?
                                >
                                > The next question involves
                                > reincarnation. This guy's
                                > wife gave birth to a baby
                                > boy and two days later his
                                > mother translated (died).
                                > He indirectly asked if this
                                > new baby was his mother.
                                >
                                > Instead of giving this EKist
                                > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                > When it comes to rebirth,
                                > anything at all can happen...
                                > Whichever Soul is now your
                                > son, everything is in accord
                                > with what is best for all around."
                                >
                                > Prometheus

                              • tuza8
                                Hi prometheus973,I agree what you said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name is master ching hai, master ching hai claim
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi prometheus973,I agree what you
                                  said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name is master ching hai, master ching hai claim herself is 8 billion plane initiation level,do you believe it?in 1985 she become master and began taught mediatation on light and sound,whom said come from higher world into this lower world ,her also said come to this lower world many times,alway is a master for help people.do you believe?
                                  --- In EckankarSurvirvorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                  > I'm not so sure that humans
                                  > will ever become like, God,
                                  > our imagined or possible
                                  > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                  > not in any lifetime soon.
                                  >
                                  > But, it could be that the
                                  > universe(s) just happened
                                  > and that the remnants of
                                  > other life forms were spread
                                  > to this planet, and others,
                                  > via space rubble... from
                                  > destroyed civilizations
                                  > and planets. Or, was it an
                                  > intentional seeding by an
                                  > advanced race... which was,
                                  > itself, seeded by another
                                  > advanced race etc.
                                  >
                                  > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                  > experiences we have
                                  > are the result of
                                  > interaction with the
                                  > quantum mechanical
                                  > field?
                                  >
                                  > Anyway, it seems to me
                                  > that what really matters
                                  > are relationships. It's our
                                  > relationships with others,
                                  > even strangers, that matter
                                  > most. This is how we really
                                  > learn and grow. Loving
                                  > relationships are valuable.
                                  >
                                  > Klemp, and others like
                                  > him, are: liars; posers;
                                  > have arrested development;
                                  > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                  > and are even psychopathic.
                                  > They are incapable of learning,
                                  > or caring about others (are
                                  > unloving) and attempt to
                                  > impede social progress and
                                  > justice. They use the rest of
                                  > us for their own personal
                                  > greed and selfish desires.
                                  >
                                  > Then, again, this strife and
                                  > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                  > created can make life interesting
                                  > and a challenge, although,
                                  > it can/will also be physically
                                  > and emotionally painful.
                                  >
                                  > But, having a regular life
                                  > without additional commitments
                                  > and involvements can also
                                  > offer rewarding experiences
                                  > and insights. We are never
                                  > all that alone. However, I'm
                                  > not sure how peace of any
                                  > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                  > will ever happen in a world
                                  > controlled by sociopaths.
                                  >
                                  > One must care about everyone
                                  > and have caring relationships
                                  > with people in order for humankind
                                  > to advance and survive. To me,
                                  > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                  > I almost included animals, too,
                                  > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                  > include "caring" about them (all)
                                  > too.
                                  >
                                  > How can one really "care" about
                                  > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                  > except to keep them away from
                                  > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                  > people.
                                  >
                                  > When one thinks about it the
                                  > definition of what's "normal"
                                  > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                  > seem to be more pathological
                                  > than the introverts don't you
                                  > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                  > to force us introverts to become
                                  > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                  > loves company I suppose or is
                                  > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                  > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                  > is more intimidating.
                                  >
                                  > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                  > to worship and viewed as being
                                  > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                  > from "us" being involved in our
                                  > lives because of the differences
                                  > we see in one another. This is
                                  > why there are so many different
                                  > religious dogmas of what's right
                                  > and wrong.
                                  >
                                  > Therefore, the differences in the
                                  > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                  > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                  > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                  > nor take responsibility for our own
                                  > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                  > use God as our scape goat.
                                  >
                                  > There are major flaws with all
                                  > of these religions and the so-called
                                  > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                  > all hearsay and the only thing
                                  > that, supposedly, gives them
                                  > validation is that these various
                                  > people in history/myth that the
                                  > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                  > to have said or done some nice,
                                  > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                  > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                  > time (being ancient) seems to
                                  > have given them credibility, because
                                  > it is believed and taught that
                                  > only Divine Intercession could
                                  > have been the source for their
                                  > Divine Inspiration.
                                  >
                                  > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                  > today, who are not even followers
                                  > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                  > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                  > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                  > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                  > of these major and minor religions.
                                  > Many of these people inspired
                                  > others by never giving up in time
                                  > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                  > there weren't many other choices.
                                  > Even those who did give up and
                                  > had bad things befall them, still,
                                  > maintained their faith and this
                                  > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                  > or saints. If this is the standard
                                  > for religions there are an awful
                                  > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                  > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                  > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                  > with unconditional love for the
                                  > master and you get a submissive
                                  > control pattern as your reward.
                                  > Buyer beware!
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                  > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                  > an experiment to see if we
                                  > are all capable of evolving
                                  > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                  > Are we to become more than
                                  > merely a divine thought?
                                  > Maybe there is something
                                  > more to that piece of a mirror
                                  > analogy."
                                  >
                                  > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                  > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                  > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                  > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                  > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                  >
                                  > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                  > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                  >
                                  > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                  > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                  > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                  > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                  > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                  > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                  > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                  > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                  > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                  > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                  > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                  > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                  > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                  >
                                  > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                  > that it would ever be necessary.
                                  >
                                  > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                  >
                                  > I AM
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Non and All,
                                  > > Thanks for the insightful
                                  > > summary. I was exploring
                                  > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                  > > charismatic Christian churches
                                  > > and saw a reference to a
                                  > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                  > >
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                  > >
                                  > > This person is mentioned
                                  > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                  > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                  > > Faith.
                                  > >
                                  > > Even when God seems to
                                  > > turn his back and: causes
                                  > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                  > > lost; cities attacked and
                                  > > overrun by your enemies;
                                  > > people brutalized, tortured
                                  > > and killed, one is to have
                                  > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                  > > reward for keeping this
                                  > > faith. God's ego needs
                                  > > you to believe in him
                                  > > regardless of what pain
                                  > > he allows to befall you.
                                  > >
                                  > > One needs to project
                                  > > a sense of hope in order
                                  > > to better endure life, as
                                  > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                  > >
                                  > > And, it's easier to face these
                                  > > challenges when you believe
                                  > > that God is on your side and
                                  > > not that of your oppressor.
                                  > >
                                  > > However, does God really
                                  > > take sides? It seems that God
                                  > > is/was created in man's image.
                                  > >
                                  > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                  > > an experiment to see if we
                                  > > are all capable of evolving
                                  > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                  > > Are we to become more than
                                  > > merely a divine thought?
                                  > > Maybe there is something
                                  > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                  > > analogy.
                                  > >
                                  > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                  > > has the belief that you (and your
                                  > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                  > > deserved the punishments as
                                  > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                  > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                  > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                  > > most religions see everyday
                                  > > living and hardships as a test
                                  > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                  > > to donate money to support
                                  > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                  > > says and promises the same
                                  > > or similar things in the imagined
                                  > > hereafter.
                                  > >
                                  > > Plus, each religion has always
                                  > > blamed the non-believers for
                                  > > the sins that they suffer under
                                  > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                  > > and Klemp is more like these
                                  > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                  > > admit.
                                  > >
                                  > > Well, got to go now....
                                  > > I just had some thoughts
                                  > > to share.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > "Non" wrote:
                                  > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                  > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                  > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                  > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                  > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                  > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                  > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                  > answers to ask the master etc.
                                  > >
                                  > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                  > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                  > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                  > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                  > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                  > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                  > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                  > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                  > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                  > >
                                  > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                  > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                  > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                  > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                  > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                  > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                  > >
                                  > > Non ;)
                                  > >
                                  > > prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Janice,
                                  > > Yes, one would think that
                                  > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                  > > would, at least, attempt
                                  > > to live up to his PR, but
                                  > > that's not the case with
                                  > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                  > > out there by demonstrating
                                  > > his powers? It's not like
                                  > > he announced to the
                                  > > whole world that he was....
                                  > > oh wait, he did!
                                  > >
                                  > > That was a long time ago
                                  > > and he never did make
                                  > > any predictions as most
                                  > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                  > > made some predictions.
                                  > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                  > > haven't noticed and don't
                                  > > mine and that's why he
                                  > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                  > > to preform his responsibilities
                                  > > as a real prophet.
                                  > >
                                  > > Instead, Harold is very
                                  > > cautious of being too
                                  > > direct and understood.
                                  > > He'd rather have EKists
                                  > > fill-in the blanks and
                                  > > imagine what they want,
                                  > > need and expect until
                                  > > they go too far and have
                                  > > to have a behaviour
                                  > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                  > > That's why Klemp usually
                                  > > gives a very one dimensional
                                  > > perspective when he tells
                                  > > a story.
                                  > >
                                  > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                  > > why put too much
                                  > > effort into it! And, he
                                  > > figures that all he needs
                                  > > to do is the KISS thing
                                  > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                  > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                  > > will substitute Soul for
                                  > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                  > >
                                  > > It's really quite amazing
                                  > > how simple Klemp's
                                  > > redundant message is.
                                  > > If EKists would just compare
                                  > > Klemp's simple minded
                                  > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                  > > leaders one would have
                                  > > to wonder what they see
                                  > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                  > > but they just laugh at his
                                  > > quirkiness because he's
                                  > > operating on so many
                                  > > high planes of consciousness
                                  > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                  > >
                                  > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                  > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                  > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                  > > isn't even in the same ball
                                  > > park with the current Dali
                                  > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                  > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                  > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                  > > religion while Eckankar
                                  > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                  > > But, EKists need to compare
                                  > > the two leaders and how
                                  > > they present themselves
                                  > > and what they have to say.
                                  > >
                                  > > Will ECKists make the
                                  > > comparison? No, of course
                                  > > not! They won't even allow
                                  > > the door to be opened a
                                  > > crack because some light
                                  > > might get in and show
                                  > > them the Truth. They can't
                                  > > handle the Truth and
                                  > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                  > > It's much easier, besides,
                                  > > what would they replace
                                  > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                  > > responsibility to think for
                                  > > oneself and exercise free
                                  > > will. And, it would make
                                  > > life too lonely to lose all
                                  > > of those EK friends.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                  > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                  > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                  > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                  > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                  > > charlatan to me.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > The December 2012
                                  > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                  > > in the Ask the Master
                                  > > section are two interesting
                                  > > questions and answers.
                                  > >
                                  > > The first question has
                                  > > to do with Stress and
                                  > > how to overcome it.
                                  > >
                                  > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                  > > washy at best. He says
                                  > > that stress is "very
                                  > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                  > > stress is a good teacher."
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp goes on to say
                                  > > that people can increase
                                  > > their tolerance to stress
                                  > > by eating healthy, getting
                                  > > enough sleep, and by
                                  > > "Reducing our overuse
                                  > > of electronic devices."
                                  > >
                                  > > In other words it seems
                                  > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                  > > roundabout way, to use
                                  > > moderation. After all,
                                  > > he's saying to reduce
                                  > > "overuse."
                                  > >
                                  > > Then, again, how does
                                  > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                  > > not use their computer
                                  > > 8 hours a day?
                                  > >
                                  > > The next question involves
                                  > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                  > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                  > > boy and two days later his
                                  > > mother translated (died).
                                  > > He indirectly asked if this
                                  > > new baby was his mother.
                                  > >
                                  > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                  > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                  > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                  > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                  > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                  > > anything at all can happen...
                                  > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                  > > son, everything is in accord
                                  > > with what is best for all around."
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  >
                                • iam999freedom
                                  Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning,
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 7, 2013
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                                    Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

                                    Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

                                    I AM

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                    > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                    > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                                    > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                    >
                                    > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: prometheus_973
                                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                    > I'm not so sure that humans
                                    > will ever become like, God,
                                    > our imagined or possible
                                    > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                    > not in any lifetime soon.
                                    >
                                    > But, it could be that the
                                    > universe(s) just happened
                                    > and that the remnants of
                                    > other life forms were spread
                                    > to this planet, and others,
                                    > via space rubble... from
                                    > destroyed civilizations
                                    > and planets. Or, was it an
                                    > intentional seeding by an
                                    > advanced race... which was,
                                    > itself, seeded by another
                                    > advanced race etc.
                                    >
                                    > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                    > experiences we have
                                    > are the result of
                                    > interaction with the
                                    > quantum mechanical
                                    > field?
                                    >
                                    > Anyway, it seems to me
                                    > that what really matters
                                    > are relationships. It's our
                                    > relationships with others,
                                    > even strangers, that matter
                                    > most. This is how we really
                                    > learn and grow. Loving
                                    > relationships are valuable.
                                    >
                                    > Klemp, and others like
                                    > him, are: liars; posers;
                                    > have arrested development;
                                    > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                    > and are even psychopathic.
                                    > They are incapable of learning,
                                    > or caring about others (are
                                    > unloving) and attempt to
                                    > impede social progress and
                                    > justice. They use the rest of
                                    > us for their own personal
                                    > greed and selfish desires.
                                    >
                                    > Then, again, this strife and
                                    > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                    > created can make life interesting
                                    > and a challenge, although,
                                    > it can/will also be physically
                                    > and emotionally painful.
                                    >
                                    > But, having a regular life
                                    > without additional commitments
                                    > and involvements can also
                                    > offer rewarding experiences
                                    > and insights. We are never
                                    > all that alone. However, I'm
                                    > not sure how peace of any
                                    > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                    > will ever happen in a world
                                    > controlled by sociopaths.
                                    >
                                    > One must care about everyone
                                    > and have caring relationships
                                    > with people in order for humankind
                                    > to advance and survive. To me,
                                    > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                    > I almost included animals, too,
                                    > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                    > include "caring" about them (all)
                                    > too.
                                    >
                                    > How can one really "care" about
                                    > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                    > except to keep them away from
                                    > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                    > people.
                                    >
                                    > When one thinks about it the
                                    > definition of what's "normal"
                                    > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                    > seem to be more pathological
                                    > than the introverts don't you
                                    > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                    > to force us introverts to become
                                    > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                    > loves company I suppose or is
                                    > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                    > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                    > is more intimidating.
                                    >
                                    > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                    > to worship and viewed as being
                                    > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                    > from "us" being involved in our
                                    > lives because of the differences
                                    > we see in one another. This is
                                    > why there are so many different
                                    > religious dogmas of what's right
                                    > and wrong.
                                    >
                                    > Therefore, the differences in the
                                    > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                    > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                    > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                    > nor take responsibility for our own
                                    > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                    > use God as our scape goat.
                                    >
                                    > There are major flaws with all
                                    > of these religions and the so-called
                                    > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                    > all hearsay and the only thing
                                    > that, supposedly, gives them
                                    > validation is that these various
                                    > people in history/myth that the
                                    > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                    > to have said or done some nice,
                                    > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                    > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                    > time (being ancient) seems to
                                    > have given them credibility, because
                                    > it is believed and taught that
                                    > only Divine Intercession could
                                    > have been the source for their
                                    > Divine Inspiration.
                                    >
                                    > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                    > today, who are not even followers
                                    > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                    > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                    > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                    > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                    > of these major and minor religions.
                                    > Many of these people inspired
                                    > others by never giving up in time
                                    > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                    > there weren't many other choices.
                                    > Even those who did give up and
                                    > had bad things befall them, still,
                                    > maintained their faith and this
                                    > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                    > or saints. If this is the standard
                                    > for religions there are an awful
                                    > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                    > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                    > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                    > with unconditional love for the
                                    > master and you get a submissive
                                    > control pattern as your reward.
                                    > Buyer beware!
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                    > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                    > an experiment to see if we
                                    > are all capable of evolving
                                    > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                    > Are we to become more than
                                    > merely a divine thought?
                                    > Maybe there is something
                                    > more to that piece of a mirror
                                    > analogy."
                                    >
                                    > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                    > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                    > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                    > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                    > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                    >
                                    > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                    > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                    >
                                    > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                    > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                    > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                    > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                    > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                    > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                    > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                    >
                                    > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                    > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                    > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                    > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                    > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                    > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                    > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                    >
                                    > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                    > that it would ever be necessary.
                                    >
                                    > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                    >
                                    > I AM
                                    >
                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Non and All,
                                    > > Thanks for the insightful
                                    > > summary. I was exploring
                                    > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                    > > charismatic Christian churches
                                    > > and saw a reference to a
                                    > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                    > >
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                    > >
                                    > > This person is mentioned
                                    > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                    > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                    > > Faith.
                                    > >
                                    > > Even when God seems to
                                    > > turn his back and: causes
                                    > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                    > > lost; cities attacked and
                                    > > overrun by your enemies;
                                    > > people brutalized, tortured
                                    > > and killed, one is to have
                                    > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                    > > reward for keeping this
                                    > > faith. God's ego needs
                                    > > you to believe in him
                                    > > regardless of what pain
                                    > > he allows to befall you.
                                    > >
                                    > > One needs to project
                                    > > a sense of hope in order
                                    > > to better endure life, as
                                    > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                    > >
                                    > > And, it's easier to face these
                                    > > challenges when you believe
                                    > > that God is on your side and
                                    > > not that of your oppressor.
                                    > >
                                    > > However, does God really
                                    > > take sides? It seems that God
                                    > > is/was created in man's image.
                                    > >
                                    > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                    > > an experiment to see if we
                                    > > are all capable of evolving
                                    > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                    > > Are we to become more than
                                    > > merely a divine thought?
                                    > > Maybe there is something
                                    > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                    > > analogy.
                                    > >
                                    > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                    > > has the belief that you (and your
                                    > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                    > > deserved the punishments as
                                    > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                    > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                    > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                    > > most religions see everyday
                                    > > living and hardships as a test
                                    > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                    > > to donate money to support
                                    > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                    > > says and promises the same
                                    > > or similar things in the imagined
                                    > > hereafter.
                                    > >
                                    > > Plus, each religion has always
                                    > > blamed the non-believers for
                                    > > the sins that they suffer under
                                    > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                    > > and Klemp is more like these
                                    > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                    > > admit.
                                    > >
                                    > > Well, got to go now....
                                    > > I just had some thoughts
                                    > > to share.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > "Non" wrote:
                                    > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                    > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                    > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                    > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                    > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                    > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                    > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                    > answers to ask the master etc.
                                    > >
                                    > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                    > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                    > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                    > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                    > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                    > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                    > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                    > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                    > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                    > >
                                    > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                    > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                    > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                    > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                    > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                    > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                    > >
                                    > > Non ;)
                                    > >
                                    > > prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Janice,
                                    > > Yes, one would think that
                                    > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                    > > would, at least, attempt
                                    > > to live up to his PR, but
                                    > > that's not the case with
                                    > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                    > > out there by demonstrating
                                    > > his powers? It's not like
                                    > > he announced to the
                                    > > whole world that he was....
                                    > > oh wait, he did!
                                    > >
                                    > > That was a long time ago
                                    > > and he never did make
                                    > > any predictions as most
                                    > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                    > > made some predictions.
                                    > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                    > > haven't noticed and don't
                                    > > mine and that's why he
                                    > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                    > > to preform his responsibilities
                                    > > as a real prophet.
                                    > >
                                    > > Instead, Harold is very
                                    > > cautious of being too
                                    > > direct and understood.
                                    > > He'd rather have EKists
                                    > > fill-in the blanks and
                                    > > imagine what they want,
                                    > > need and expect until
                                    > > they go too far and have
                                    > > to have a behaviour
                                    > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                    > > That's why Klemp usually
                                    > > gives a very one dimensional
                                    > > perspective when he tells
                                    > > a story.
                                    > >
                                    > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                    > > why put too much
                                    > > effort into it! And, he
                                    > > figures that all he needs
                                    > > to do is the KISS thing
                                    > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                    > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                    > > will substitute Soul for
                                    > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                    > >
                                    > > It's really quite amazing
                                    > > how simple Klemp's
                                    > > redundant message is.
                                    > > If EKists would just compare
                                    > > Klemp's simple minded
                                    > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                    > > leaders one would have
                                    > > to wonder what they see
                                    > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                    > > but they just laugh at his
                                    > > quirkiness because he's
                                    > > operating on so many
                                    > > high planes of consciousness
                                    > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                    > >
                                    > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                    > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                    > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                    > > isn't even in the same ball
                                    > > park with the current Dali
                                    > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                    > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                    > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                    > > religion while Eckankar
                                    > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                    > > But, EKists need to compare
                                    > > the two leaders and how
                                    > > they present themselves
                                    > > and what they have to say.
                                    > >
                                    > > Will ECKists make the
                                    > > comparison? No, of course
                                    > > not! They won't even allow
                                    > > the door to be opened a
                                    > > crack because some light
                                    > > might get in and show
                                    > > them the Truth. They can't
                                    > > handle the Truth and
                                    > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                    > > It's much easier, besides,
                                    > > what would they replace
                                    > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                    > > responsibility to think for
                                    > > oneself and exercise free
                                    > > will. And, it would make
                                    > > life too lonely to lose all
                                    > > of those EK friends.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                    > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                    > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                    > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                    > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                    > > charlatan to me.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > The December 2012
                                    > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                    > > in the Ask the Master
                                    > > section are two interesting
                                    > > questions and answers.
                                    > >
                                    > > The first question has
                                    > > to do with Stress and
                                    > > how to overcome it.
                                    > >
                                    > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                    > > washy at best. He says
                                    > > that stress is "very
                                    > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                    > > stress is a good teacher."
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp goes on to say
                                    > > that people can increase
                                    > > their tolerance to stress
                                    > > by eating healthy, getting
                                    > > enough sleep, and by
                                    > > "Reducing our overuse
                                    > > of electronic devices."
                                    > >
                                    > > In other words it seems
                                    > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                    > > roundabout way, to use
                                    > > moderation. After all,
                                    > > he's saying to reduce
                                    > > "overuse."
                                    > >
                                    > > Then, again, how does
                                    > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                    > > not use their computer
                                    > > 8 hours a day?
                                    > >
                                    > > The next question involves
                                    > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                    > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                    > > boy and two days later his
                                    > > mother translated (died).
                                    > > He indirectly asked if this
                                    > > new baby was his mother.
                                    > >
                                    > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                    > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                    > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                    > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                    > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                    > > anything at all can happen...
                                    > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                    > > son, everything is in accord
                                    > > with what is best for all around."
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    >
                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hello Tuza8, Welcome to the site! Thanks for the info on, yet, another religious scammer/fraud. I m assuming that your questions are rhetorical. I found some
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hello Tuza8,
                                      Welcome to the site!
                                      Thanks for the info
                                      on, yet, another religious
                                      scammer/fraud.

                                      I'm assuming that your
                                      questions are rhetorical.

                                      I found some info on this
                                      person and the following
                                      video:

                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I

                                      Here's more info that that
                                      I uncovered on Wikipedia:

                                      [Note the info within the (*****)
                                      It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                                      Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]

                                      Quan Yin Method

                                      In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the 'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with which she is now associated.[10]


                                      *****
                                      Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]

                                      Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best, easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                                      *****


                                      Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the

                                      "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:

                                      Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                                      Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                                      Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                                      Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                                      Refrain from the use of intoxicants.

                                      [edit]Quan Yin Method in China

                                      Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]

                                      The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July 1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in 20 provinces and cities.[10]

                                      In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies of "heretical texts."[10]

                                      [edit]Criticism

                                      [edit]Environmental violations
                                      In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400 and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned to establish a park on the site.[33]

                                      Yes, I read where she is
                                      very popular in Taiwan
                                      and that she has 20,000
                                      followers world wide.

                                      She's half Vietnamese
                                      and Chinese and became
                                      a disciple of Thakar Singh
                                      and studied Surat Shabd
                                      Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                                      Light and Sound), but
                                      was, later, initiated by
                                      a Buddhist monk.

                                      All those who follow
                                      her are asked to become
                                      Vegetarians and initiation
                                      is free of charge. It doesn't
                                      appear that there is a
                                      Membership Donation/Fee
                                      like with Ecklankar, but
                                      she does make a lot of
                                      money by selling books,
                                      videos, etc. She also owns
                                      Vegetarian and Vegan
                                      Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                                      has jewelry outlets, and
                                      designs her own clothing
                                      line.

                                      Her name, Ching Hai,
                                      means "pure ocean."

                                      Google the "Quan Yin
                                      Method" to find out
                                      more about her daily
                                      meditation of the inner
                                      L & S.

                                      She's been described as a:
                                      "tireless publicity seeker;
                                      The Immaterial Girl... Part
                                      Buddha, Part Madonna;
                                      The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                                      ... merchandizing mystic
                                      from Taiwan."

                                      So, it seems that because
                                      of her Buddhist connections
                                      that she's associated with
                                      the more familiar Buddhism,
                                      however, she teaches the
                                      less known (outside India)
                                      Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                                      ECKankar.

                                      Funny, though, that her
                                      religion/enterprise had
                                      a later start than ECKankar
                                      but is making more money
                                      and bringing in more people.

                                      Prometheus

                                      "tuza8" wrote:

                                      Hi prometheu,
                                      I agree what you said,
                                      they are some false master
                                      in public.

                                      recently one femala master,
                                      her name is master ching hai,
                                      master ching hai claim herself
                                      is 8 billion plane initiation level,

                                      do you believe it?

                                      in 1985 she become master
                                      and began taught mediatation
                                      on light and sound, whom said
                                      come from higher world into
                                      this lower world ,

                                      her also said come to this
                                      lower world many times,
                                      alway is a master for help
                                      people.

                                      do you believe?

                                      prometheus_973" wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                      > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                      > > will ever become like, God,
                                      > > our imagined or possible
                                      > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                      > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                      > >
                                      > > But, it could be that the
                                      > > universe(s) just happened
                                      > > and that the remnants of
                                      > > other life forms were spread
                                      > > to this planet, and others,
                                      > > via space rubble... from
                                      > > destroyed civilizations
                                      > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                      > > intentional seeding by an
                                      > > advanced race... which was,
                                      > > itself, seeded by another
                                      > > advanced race etc.
                                      > >
                                      > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                      > > experiences we have
                                      > > are the result of
                                      > > interaction with the
                                      > > quantum mechanical
                                      > > field?
                                      > >
                                      > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                      > > that what really matters
                                      > > are relationships. It's our
                                      > > relationships with others,
                                      > > even strangers, that matter
                                      > > most. This is how we really
                                      > > learn and grow. Loving
                                      > > relationships are valuable.
                                      > >
                                      > > Klemp, and others like
                                      > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                      > > have arrested development;
                                      > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                      > > and are even psychopathic.
                                      > > They are incapable of learning,
                                      > > or caring about others (are
                                      > > unloving) and attempt to
                                      > > impede social progress and
                                      > > justice. They use the rest of
                                      > > us for their own personal
                                      > > greed and selfish desires.
                                      > >
                                      > > Then, again, this strife and
                                      > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                      > > created can make life interesting
                                      > > and a challenge, although,
                                      > > it can/will also be physically
                                      > > and emotionally painful.
                                      > >
                                      > > But, having a regular life
                                      > > without additional commitments
                                      > > and involvements can also
                                      > > offer rewarding experiences
                                      > > and insights. We are never
                                      > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                      > > not sure how peace of any
                                      > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                      > > will ever happen in a world
                                      > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                      > >
                                      > > One must care about everyone
                                      > > and have caring relationships
                                      > > with people in order for humankind
                                      > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                      > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                      > > I almost included animals, too,
                                      > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                      > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                      > > too.
                                      > >
                                      > > How can one really "care" about
                                      > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                      > > except to keep them away from
                                      > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                      > > people.
                                      > >
                                      > > When one thinks about it the
                                      > > definition of what's "normal"
                                      > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                      > > seem to be more pathological
                                      > > than the introverts don't you
                                      > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                      > > to force us introverts to become
                                      > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                      > > loves company I suppose or is
                                      > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                      > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                      > > is more intimidating.
                                      > >
                                      > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                      > > to worship and viewed as being
                                      > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                      > > from "us" being involved in our
                                      > > lives because of the differences
                                      > > we see in one another. This is
                                      > > why there are so many different
                                      > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                      > > and wrong.
                                      > >
                                      > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                      > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                      > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                      > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                      > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                      > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                      > > use God as our scape goat.
                                      > >
                                      > > There are major flaws with all
                                      > > of these religions and the so-called
                                      > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                      > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                      > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                      > > validation is that these various
                                      > > people in history/myth that the
                                      > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                      > > to have said or done some nice,
                                      > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                      > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                      > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                      > > have given them credibility, because
                                      > > it is believed and taught that
                                      > > only Divine Intercession could
                                      > > have been the source for their
                                      > > Divine Inspiration.
                                      > >
                                      > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                      > > today, who are not even followers
                                      > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                      > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                      > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                      > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                      > > of these major and minor religions.
                                      > > Many of these people inspired
                                      > > others by never giving up in time
                                      > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                      > > there weren't many other choices.
                                      > > Even those who did give up and
                                      > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                      > > maintained their faith and this
                                      > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                      > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                      > > for religions there are an awful
                                      > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                      > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                      > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                      > > with unconditional love for the
                                      > > master and you get a submissive
                                      > > control pattern as your reward.
                                      > > Buyer beware!
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                      > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                      > > an experiment to see if we
                                      > > are all capable of evolving
                                      > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                      > > Are we to become more than
                                      > > merely a divine thought?
                                      > > Maybe there is something
                                      > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                      > > analogy."
                                      > >
                                      > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                      > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                      > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                      > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                      > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                      > >
                                      > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                      > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                      > >
                                      > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                      > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                      > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                      > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                      > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                      > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                      > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                      > >
                                      > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                      > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                      > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                      > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                      > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                      > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                      > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                      > >
                                      > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                      > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                      > >
                                      > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                      > >
                                      > > I AM
                                      > >
                                      > > prometheus wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hello Non and All,
                                      > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                      > > > summary. I was exploring
                                      > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                      > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                      > > > and saw a reference to a
                                      > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                      > > >
                                      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                      > > >
                                      > > > This person is mentioned
                                      > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                      > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                      > > > Faith.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Even when God seems to
                                      > > > turn his back and: causes
                                      > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                      > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                      > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                      > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                      > > > and killed, one is to have
                                      > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                      > > > reward for keeping this
                                      > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                      > > > you to believe in him
                                      > > > regardless of what pain
                                      > > > he allows to befall you.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > One needs to project
                                      > > > a sense of hope in order
                                      > > > to better endure life, as
                                      > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                      > > > challenges when you believe
                                      > > > that God is on your side and
                                      > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > However, does God really
                                      > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                      > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                      > > > an experiment to see if we
                                      > > > are all capable of evolving
                                      > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                      > > > Are we to become more than
                                      > > > merely a divine thought?
                                      > > > Maybe there is something
                                      > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                      > > > analogy.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                      > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                      > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                      > > > deserved the punishments as
                                      > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                      > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                      > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                      > > > most religions see everyday
                                      > > > living and hardships as a test
                                      > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                      > > > to donate money to support
                                      > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                      > > > says and promises the same
                                      > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                      > > > hereafter.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                      > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                      > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                      > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                      > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                      > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                      > > > admit.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Well, got to go now....
                                      > > > I just had some thoughts
                                      > > > to share.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prometheus
                                      > > >
                                      > > "Non" wrote:
                                      > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                      > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                      > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                      > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                      > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                      > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                      > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                      > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                      > > >
                                      > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                      > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                      > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                      > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                      > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                      > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                      > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                      > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                      > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                      > > >
                                      > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                      > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                      > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                      > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                      > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                      > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Non ;)
                                      > > >
                                      > > > prometheus wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hello Janice,
                                      > > > Yes, one would think that
                                      > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                      > > > would, at least, attempt
                                      > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                      > > > that's not the case with
                                      > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                      > > > out there by demonstrating
                                      > > > his powers? It's not like
                                      > > > he announced to the
                                      > > > whole world that he was....
                                      > > > oh wait, he did!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > That was a long time ago
                                      > > > and he never did make
                                      > > > any predictions as most
                                      > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                      > > > made some predictions.
                                      > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                      > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                      > > > mine and that's why he
                                      > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                      > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                      > > > as a real prophet.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                      > > > cautious of being too
                                      > > > direct and understood.
                                      > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                      > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                      > > > imagine what they want,
                                      > > > need and expect until
                                      > > > they go too far and have
                                      > > > to have a behaviour
                                      > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                      > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                      > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                      > > > perspective when he tells
                                      > > > a story.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                      > > > why put too much
                                      > > > effort into it! And, he
                                      > > > figures that all he needs
                                      > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                      > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                      > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                      > > > will substitute Soul for
                                      > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > It's really quite amazing
                                      > > > how simple Klemp's
                                      > > > redundant message is.
                                      > > > If EKists would just compare
                                      > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                      > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                      > > > leaders one would have
                                      > > > to wonder what they see
                                      > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                      > > > but they just laugh at his
                                      > > > quirkiness because he's
                                      > > > operating on so many
                                      > > > high planes of consciousness
                                      > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                      > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                      > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                      > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                      > > > park with the current Dali
                                      > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                      > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                      > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                      > > > religion while Eckankar
                                      > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                      > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                      > > > the two leaders and how
                                      > > > they present themselves
                                      > > > and what they have to say.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Will ECKists make the
                                      > > > comparison? No, of course
                                      > > > not! They won't even allow
                                      > > > the door to be opened a
                                      > > > crack because some light
                                      > > > might get in and show
                                      > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                      > > > handle the Truth and
                                      > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                      > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                      > > > what would they replace
                                      > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                      > > > responsibility to think for
                                      > > > oneself and exercise free
                                      > > > will. And, it would make
                                      > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                      > > > of those EK friends.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prometheus
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                      > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                      > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                      > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                      > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                      > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                      > > > charlatan to me.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The December 2012
                                      > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                      > > > in the Ask the Master
                                      > > > section are two interesting
                                      > > > questions and answers.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The first question has
                                      > > > to do with Stress and
                                      > > > how to overcome it.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                      > > > washy at best. He says
                                      > > > that stress is "very
                                      > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                      > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                      > > > that people can increase
                                      > > > their tolerance to stress
                                      > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                      > > > enough sleep, and by
                                      > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                      > > > of electronic devices."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > In other words it seems
                                      > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                      > > > roundabout way, to use
                                      > > > moderation. After all,
                                      > > > he's saying to reduce
                                      > > > "overuse."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Then, again, how does
                                      > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                      > > > not use their computer
                                      > > > 8 hours a day?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The next question involves
                                      > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                      > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                      > > > boy and two days later his
                                      > > > mother translated (died).
                                      > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                      > > > new baby was his mother.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                      > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                      > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                      > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                      > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                      > > > anything at all can happen...
                                      > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                      > > > son, everything is in accord
                                      > > > with what is best for all around."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • iam999freedom
                                      I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
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                                        I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle. In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are naturally more happy.

                                        If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

                                        I AM.......HAPPY LOL

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                        >
                                        > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                        >
                                        > I AM
                                        >
                                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                        > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                        > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                                        > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                        > >
                                        > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > From: prometheus_973
                                        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >  
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                        > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                        > > will ever become like, God,
                                        > > our imagined or possible
                                        > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                        > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                        > >
                                        > > But, it could be that the
                                        > > universe(s) just happened
                                        > > and that the remnants of
                                        > > other life forms were spread
                                        > > to this planet, and others,
                                        > > via space rubble... from
                                        > > destroyed civilizations
                                        > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                        > > intentional seeding by an
                                        > > advanced race... which was,
                                        > > itself, seeded by another
                                        > > advanced race etc.
                                        > >
                                        > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                        > > experiences we have
                                        > > are the result of
                                        > > interaction with the
                                        > > quantum mechanical
                                        > > field?
                                        > >
                                        > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                        > > that what really matters
                                        > > are relationships. It's our
                                        > > relationships with others,
                                        > > even strangers, that matter
                                        > > most. This is how we really
                                        > > learn and grow. Loving
                                        > > relationships are valuable.
                                        > >
                                        > > Klemp, and others like
                                        > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                        > > have arrested development;
                                        > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                        > > and are even psychopathic.
                                        > > They are incapable of learning,
                                        > > or caring about others (are
                                        > > unloving) and attempt to
                                        > > impede social progress and
                                        > > justice. They use the rest of
                                        > > us for their own personal
                                        > > greed and selfish desires.
                                        > >
                                        > > Then, again, this strife and
                                        > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                        > > created can make life interesting
                                        > > and a challenge, although,
                                        > > it can/will also be physically
                                        > > and emotionally painful.
                                        > >
                                        > > But, having a regular life
                                        > > without additional commitments
                                        > > and involvements can also
                                        > > offer rewarding experiences
                                        > > and insights. We are never
                                        > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                        > > not sure how peace of any
                                        > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                        > > will ever happen in a world
                                        > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                        > >
                                        > > One must care about everyone
                                        > > and have caring relationships
                                        > > with people in order for humankind
                                        > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                        > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                        > > I almost included animals, too,
                                        > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                        > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                        > > too.
                                        > >
                                        > > How can one really "care" about
                                        > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                        > > except to keep them away from
                                        > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                        > > people.
                                        > >
                                        > > When one thinks about it the
                                        > > definition of what's "normal"
                                        > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                        > > seem to be more pathological
                                        > > than the introverts don't you
                                        > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                        > > to force us introverts to become
                                        > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                        > > loves company I suppose or is
                                        > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                        > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                        > > is more intimidating.
                                        > >
                                        > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                        > > to worship and viewed as being
                                        > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                        > > from "us" being involved in our
                                        > > lives because of the differences
                                        > > we see in one another. This is
                                        > > why there are so many different
                                        > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                        > > and wrong.
                                        > >
                                        > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                        > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                        > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                        > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                        > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                        > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                        > > use God as our scape goat.
                                        > >
                                        > > There are major flaws with all
                                        > > of these religions and the so-called
                                        > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                        > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                        > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                        > > validation is that these various
                                        > > people in history/myth that the
                                        > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                        > > to have said or done some nice,
                                        > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                        > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                        > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                        > > have given them credibility, because
                                        > > it is believed and taught that
                                        > > only Divine Intercession could
                                        > > have been the source for their
                                        > > Divine Inspiration.
                                        > >
                                        > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                        > > today, who are not even followers
                                        > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                        > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                        > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                        > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                        > > of these major and minor religions.
                                        > > Many of these people inspired
                                        > > others by never giving up in time
                                        > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                        > > there weren't many other choices.
                                        > > Even those who did give up and
                                        > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                        > > maintained their faith and this
                                        > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                        > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                        > > for religions there are an awful
                                        > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                        > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                        > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                        > > with unconditional love for the
                                        > > master and you get a submissive
                                        > > control pattern as your reward.
                                        > > Buyer beware!
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                        > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                        > > an experiment to see if we
                                        > > are all capable of evolving
                                        > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                        > > Are we to become more than
                                        > > merely a divine thought?
                                        > > Maybe there is something
                                        > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                        > > analogy."
                                        > >
                                        > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                        > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                        > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                        > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                        > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                        > >
                                        > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                        > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                        > >
                                        > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                        > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                        > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                        > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                        > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                        > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                        > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                        > >
                                        > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                        > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                        > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                        > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                        > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                        > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                        > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                        > >
                                        > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                        > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                        > >
                                        > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                        > >
                                        > > I AM
                                        > >
                                        > > prometheus wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hello Non and All,
                                        > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                        > > > summary. I was exploring
                                        > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                        > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                        > > > and saw a reference to a
                                        > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                        > > >
                                        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                        > > >
                                        > > > This person is mentioned
                                        > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                        > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                        > > > Faith.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Even when God seems to
                                        > > > turn his back and: causes
                                        > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                        > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                        > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                        > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                        > > > and killed, one is to have
                                        > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                        > > > reward for keeping this
                                        > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                        > > > you to believe in him
                                        > > > regardless of what pain
                                        > > > he allows to befall you.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > One needs to project
                                        > > > a sense of hope in order
                                        > > > to better endure life, as
                                        > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                        > > > challenges when you believe
                                        > > > that God is on your side and
                                        > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > However, does God really
                                        > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                        > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                        > > > an experiment to see if we
                                        > > > are all capable of evolving
                                        > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                        > > > Are we to become more than
                                        > > > merely a divine thought?
                                        > > > Maybe there is something
                                        > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                        > > > analogy.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                        > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                        > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                        > > > deserved the punishments as
                                        > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                        > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                        > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                        > > > most religions see everyday
                                        > > > living and hardships as a test
                                        > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                        > > > to donate money to support
                                        > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                        > > > says and promises the same
                                        > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                        > > > hereafter.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                        > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                        > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                        > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                        > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                        > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                        > > > admit.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Well, got to go now....
                                        > > > I just had some thoughts
                                        > > > to share.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus
                                        > > >
                                        > > "Non" wrote:
                                        > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                        > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                        > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                        > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                        > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                        > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                        > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                        > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                        > > >
                                        > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                        > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                        > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                        > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                        > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                        > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                        > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                        > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                        > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                        > > >
                                        > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                        > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                        > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                        > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                        > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                        > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Non ;)
                                        > > >
                                        > > > prometheus wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hello Janice,
                                        > > > Yes, one would think that
                                        > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                        > > > would, at least, attempt
                                        > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                        > > > that's not the case with
                                        > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                        > > > out there by demonstrating
                                        > > > his powers? It's not like
                                        > > > he announced to the
                                        > > > whole world that he was....
                                        > > > oh wait, he did!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > That was a long time ago
                                        > > > and he never did make
                                        > > > any predictions as most
                                        > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                        > > > made some predictions.
                                        > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                        > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                        > > > mine and that's why he
                                        > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                        > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                        > > > as a real prophet.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                        > > > cautious of being too
                                        > > > direct and understood.
                                        > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                        > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                        > > > imagine what they want,
                                        > > > need and expect until
                                        > > > they go too far and have
                                        > > > to have a behaviour
                                        > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                        > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                        > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                        > > > perspective when he tells
                                        > > > a story.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                        > > > why put too much
                                        > > > effort into it! And, he
                                        > > > figures that all he needs
                                        > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                        > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                        > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                        > > > will substitute Soul for
                                        > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > It's really quite amazing
                                        > > > how simple Klemp's
                                        > > > redundant message is.
                                        > > > If EKists would just compare
                                        > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                        > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                        > > > leaders one would have
                                        > > > to wonder what they see
                                        > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                        > > > but they just laugh at his
                                        > > > quirkiness because he's
                                        > > > operating on so many
                                        > > > high planes of consciousness
                                        > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                        > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                        > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                        > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                        > > > park with the current Dali
                                        > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                        > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                        > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                        > > > religion while Eckankar
                                        > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                        > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                        > > > the two leaders and how
                                        > > > they present themselves
                                        > > > and what they have to say.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Will ECKists make the
                                        > > > comparison? No, of course
                                        > > > not! They won't even allow
                                        > > > the door to be opened a
                                        > > > crack because some light
                                        > > > might get in and show
                                        > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                        > > > handle the Truth and
                                        > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                        > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                        > > > what would they replace
                                        > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                        > > > responsibility to think for
                                        > > > oneself and exercise free
                                        > > > will. And, it would make
                                        > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                        > > > of those EK friends.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                        > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                        > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                        > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                        > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                        > > > charlatan to me.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The December 2012
                                        > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                        > > > in the Ask the Master
                                        > > > section are two interesting
                                        > > > questions and answers.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The first question has
                                        > > > to do with Stress and
                                        > > > how to overcome it.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                        > > > washy at best. He says
                                        > > > that stress is "very
                                        > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                        > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                        > > > that people can increase
                                        > > > their tolerance to stress
                                        > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                        > > > enough sleep, and by
                                        > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                        > > > of electronic devices."
                                        > > >
                                        > > > In other words it seems
                                        > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                        > > > roundabout way, to use
                                        > > > moderation. After all,
                                        > > > he's saying to reduce
                                        > > > "overuse."
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Then, again, how does
                                        > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                        > > > not use their computer
                                        > > > 8 hours a day?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The next question involves
                                        > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                        > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                        > > > boy and two days later his
                                        > > > mother translated (died).
                                        > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                        > > > new baby was his mother.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                        > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                        > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                        > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                        > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                        > > > anything at all can happen...
                                        > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                        > > > son, everything is in accord
                                        > > > with what is best for all around."
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • tuza8
                                        Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said she is 8 trillion
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 8, 2013
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                                          Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said
                                          she is 8 trillion initiate right now ,I dont believe. ,because from 1986 untill now just 27 years ,how can her achieve such level?is it possible once achieve that level in a short time?27 year?you are a master,so ,you know the answer. is it possible?pls tell me.
                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello Tuza8,
                                          > Welcome to the site!
                                          > Thanks for the info
                                          > on, yet, another religious
                                          > scammer/fraud.
                                          >
                                          > I'm assuming that your
                                          > questions are rhetorical.
                                          >
                                          > I found some info on this
                                          > person and the following
                                          > video:
                                          >
                                          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
                                          >
                                          > Here's more info that that
                                          > I uncovered on Wikipedia:
                                          >
                                          > [Note the info within the (*****)
                                          > It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                                          > Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
                                          >
                                          > Quan Yin Method
                                          >
                                          > In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the 'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with which she is now associated.[10]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > *****
                                          > Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
                                          >
                                          > Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best, easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                                          > *****
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
                                          >
                                          > "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
                                          >
                                          > Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                                          > Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                                          > Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                                          > Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                                          > Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
                                          >
                                          > [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
                                          >
                                          > Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
                                          >
                                          > The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July 1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in 20 provinces and cities.[10]
                                          >
                                          > In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies of "heretical texts."[10]
                                          >
                                          > [edit]Criticism
                                          >
                                          > [edit]Environmental violations
                                          > In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400 and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned to establish a park on the site.[33]
                                          >
                                          > Yes, I read where she is
                                          > very popular in Taiwan
                                          > and that she has 20,000
                                          > followers world wide.
                                          >
                                          > She's half Vietnamese
                                          > and Chinese and became
                                          > a disciple of Thakar Singh
                                          > and studied Surat Shabd
                                          > Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                                          > Light and Sound), but
                                          > was, later, initiated by
                                          > a Buddhist monk.
                                          >
                                          > All those who follow
                                          > her are asked to become
                                          > Vegetarians and initiation
                                          > is free of charge. It doesn't
                                          > appear that there is a
                                          > Membership Donation/Fee
                                          > like with Ecklankar, but
                                          > she does make a lot of
                                          > money by selling books,
                                          > videos, etc. She also owns
                                          > Vegetarian and Vegan
                                          > Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                                          > has jewelry outlets, and
                                          > designs her own clothing
                                          > line.
                                          >
                                          > Her name, Ching Hai,
                                          > means "pure ocean."
                                          >
                                          > Google the "Quan Yin
                                          > Method" to find out
                                          > more about her daily
                                          > meditation of the inner
                                          > L & S.
                                          >
                                          > She's been described as a:
                                          > "tireless publicity seeker;
                                          > The Immaterial Girl... Part
                                          > Buddha, Part Madonna;
                                          > The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                                          > ... merchandizing mystic
                                          > from Taiwan."
                                          >
                                          > So, it seems that because
                                          > of her Buddhist connections
                                          > that she's associated with
                                          > the more familiar Buddhism,
                                          > however, she teaches the
                                          > less known (outside India)
                                          > Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                                          > ECKankar.
                                          >
                                          > Funny, though, that her
                                          > religion/enterprise had
                                          > a later start than ECKankar
                                          > but is making more money
                                          > and bringing in more people.
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          > "tuza8" wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi prometheu,
                                          > I agree what you said,
                                          > they are some false master
                                          > in public.
                                          >
                                          > recently one femala master,
                                          > her name is master ching hai,
                                          > master ching hai claim herself
                                          > is 8 billion plane initiation level,
                                          >
                                          > do you believe it?
                                          >
                                          > in 1985 she become master
                                          > and began taught mediatation
                                          > on light and sound, whom said
                                          > come from higher world into
                                          > this lower world ,
                                          >
                                          > her also said come to this
                                          > lower world many times,
                                          > alway is a master for help
                                          > people.
                                          >
                                          > do you believe?
                                          >
                                          > prometheus_973" wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                          > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                          > > > will ever become like, God,
                                          > > > our imagined or possible
                                          > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                          > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But, it could be that the
                                          > > > universe(s) just happened
                                          > > > and that the remnants of
                                          > > > other life forms were spread
                                          > > > to this planet, and others,
                                          > > > via space rubble... from
                                          > > > destroyed civilizations
                                          > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                          > > > intentional seeding by an
                                          > > > advanced race... which was,
                                          > > > itself, seeded by another
                                          > > > advanced race etc.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                          > > > experiences we have
                                          > > > are the result of
                                          > > > interaction with the
                                          > > > quantum mechanical
                                          > > > field?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                          > > > that what really matters
                                          > > > are relationships. It's our
                                          > > > relationships with others,
                                          > > > even strangers, that matter
                                          > > > most. This is how we really
                                          > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                          > > > relationships are valuable.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Klemp, and others like
                                          > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                          > > > have arrested development;
                                          > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                          > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                          > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                          > > > or caring about others (are
                                          > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                          > > > impede social progress and
                                          > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                          > > > us for their own personal
                                          > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                          > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                          > > > created can make life interesting
                                          > > > and a challenge, although,
                                          > > > it can/will also be physically
                                          > > > and emotionally painful.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But, having a regular life
                                          > > > without additional commitments
                                          > > > and involvements can also
                                          > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                          > > > and insights. We are never
                                          > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                          > > > not sure how peace of any
                                          > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                          > > > will ever happen in a world
                                          > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > One must care about everyone
                                          > > > and have caring relationships
                                          > > > with people in order for humankind
                                          > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                          > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                          > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                          > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                          > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                          > > > too.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > How can one really "care" about
                                          > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                          > > > except to keep them away from
                                          > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                          > > > people.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > When one thinks about it the
                                          > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                          > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                          > > > seem to be more pathological
                                          > > > than the introverts don't you
                                          > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                          > > > to force us introverts to become
                                          > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                          > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                          > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                          > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                          > > > is more intimidating.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                          > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                          > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                          > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                          > > > lives because of the differences
                                          > > > we see in one another. This is
                                          > > > why there are so many different
                                          > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                          > > > and wrong.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                          > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                          > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                          > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                          > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                          > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                          > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > There are major flaws with all
                                          > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                          > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                          > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                          > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                          > > > validation is that these various
                                          > > > people in history/myth that the
                                          > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                          > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                          > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                          > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                          > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                          > > > have given them credibility, because
                                          > > > it is believed and taught that
                                          > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                          > > > have been the source for their
                                          > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                          > > > today, who are not even followers
                                          > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                          > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                          > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                          > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                          > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                          > > > Many of these people inspired
                                          > > > others by never giving up in time
                                          > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                          > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                          > > > Even those who did give up and
                                          > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                          > > > maintained their faith and this
                                          > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                          > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                          > > > for religions there are an awful
                                          > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                          > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                          > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                          > > > with unconditional love for the
                                          > > > master and you get a submissive
                                          > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                          > > > Buyer beware!
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                          > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                          > > > an experiment to see if we
                                          > > > are all capable of evolving
                                          > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                          > > > Are we to become more than
                                          > > > merely a divine thought?
                                          > > > Maybe there is something
                                          > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                          > > > analogy."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                          > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                          > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                          > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                          > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                          > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                          > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                          > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                          > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                          > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                          > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                          > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                          > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                          > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                          > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                          > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                          > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                          > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                          > > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I AM
                                          > > >
                                          > > > prometheus wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Hello Non and All,
                                          > > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                          > > > > summary. I was exploring
                                          > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                          > > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                          > > > > and saw a reference to a
                                          > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > This person is mentioned
                                          > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                          > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                          > > > > Faith.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Even when God seems to
                                          > > > > turn his back and: causes
                                          > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                          > > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                          > > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                          > > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                          > > > > and killed, one is to have
                                          > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                          > > > > reward for keeping this
                                          > > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                          > > > > you to believe in him
                                          > > > > regardless of what pain
                                          > > > > he allows to befall you.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > One needs to project
                                          > > > > a sense of hope in order
                                          > > > > to better endure life, as
                                          > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                          > > > > challenges when you believe
                                          > > > > that God is on your side and
                                          > > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > However, does God really
                                          > > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                          > > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                          > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                          > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                          > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                          > > > > Are we to become more than
                                          > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                          > > > > Maybe there is something
                                          > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                          > > > > analogy.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                          > > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                          > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                          > > > > deserved the punishments as
                                          > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                          > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                          > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                          > > > > most religions see everyday
                                          > > > > living and hardships as a test
                                          > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                          > > > > to donate money to support
                                          > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                          > > > > says and promises the same
                                          > > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                          > > > > hereafter.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                          > > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                          > > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                          > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                          > > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                          > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                          > > > > admit.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Well, got to go now....
                                          > > > > I just had some thoughts
                                          > > > > to share.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Prometheus
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > "Non" wrote:
                                          > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                          > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                          > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                          > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                          > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                          > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                          > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                          > > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                          > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                          > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                          > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                          > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                          > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                          > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                          > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                          > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                          > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                          > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                          > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                          > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                          > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Non ;)
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > prometheus wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Hello Janice,
                                          > > > > Yes, one would think that
                                          > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                          > > > > would, at least, attempt
                                          > > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                          > > > > that's not the case with
                                          > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                          > > > > out there by demonstrating
                                          > > > > his powers? It's not like
                                          > > > > he announced to the
                                          > > > > whole world that he was....
                                          > > > > oh wait, he did!
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > That was a long time ago
                                          > > > > and he never did make
                                          > > > > any predictions as most
                                          > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                          > > > > made some predictions.
                                          > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                          > > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                          > > > > mine and that's why he
                                          > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                          > > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                          > > > > as a real prophet.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                          > > > > cautious of being too
                                          > > > > direct and understood.
                                          > > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                          > > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                          > > > > imagine what they want,
                                          > > > > need and expect until
                                          > > > > they go too far and have
                                          > > > > to have a behaviour
                                          > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                          > > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                          > > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                          > > > > perspective when he tells
                                          > > > > a story.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                          > > > > why put too much
                                          > > > > effort into it! And, he
                                          > > > > figures that all he needs
                                          > > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                          > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                          > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                          > > > > will substitute Soul for
                                          > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > It's really quite amazing
                                          > > > > how simple Klemp's
                                          > > > > redundant message is.
                                          > > > > If EKists would just compare
                                          > > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                          > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                          > > > > leaders one would have
                                          > > > > to wonder what they see
                                          > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                          > > > > but they just laugh at his
                                          > > > > quirkiness because he's
                                          > > > > operating on so many
                                          > > > > high planes of consciousness
                                          > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                          > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                          > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                          > > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                          > > > > park with the current Dali
                                          > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                          > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                          > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                          > > > > religion while Eckankar
                                          > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                          > > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                          > > > > the two leaders and how
                                          > > > > they present themselves
                                          > > > > and what they have to say.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Will ECKists make the
                                          > > > > comparison? No, of course
                                          > > > > not! They won't even allow
                                          > > > > the door to be opened a
                                          > > > > crack because some light
                                          > > > > might get in and show
                                          > > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                          > > > > handle the Truth and
                                          > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                          > > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                          > > > > what would they replace
                                          > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                          > > > > responsibility to think for
                                          > > > > oneself and exercise free
                                          > > > > will. And, it would make
                                          > > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                          > > > > of those EK friends.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Prometheus
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                          > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                          > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                          > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                          > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                          > > > > charlatan to me.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > The December 2012
                                          > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                          > > > > in the Ask the Master
                                          > > > > section are two interesting
                                          > > > > questions and answers.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > The first question has
                                          > > > > to do with Stress and
                                          > > > > how to overcome it.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                          > > > > washy at best. He says
                                          > > > > that stress is "very
                                          > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                          > > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                          > > > > that people can increase
                                          > > > > their tolerance to stress
                                          > > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                          > > > > enough sleep, and by
                                          > > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                          > > > > of electronic devices."
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > In other words it seems
                                          > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                          > > > > roundabout way, to use
                                          > > > > moderation. After all,
                                          > > > > he's saying to reduce
                                          > > > > "overuse."
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Then, again, how does
                                          > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                          > > > > not use their computer
                                          > > > > 8 hours a day?
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > The next question involves
                                          > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                          > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                          > > > > boy and two days later his
                                          > > > > mother translated (died).
                                          > > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                          > > > > new baby was his mother.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                          > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                          > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                          > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                          > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                          > > > > anything at all can happen...
                                          > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                          > > > > son, everything is in accord
                                          > > > > with what is best for all around."
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Prometheus
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • prometheus_973
                                          Hello I AM, Janice and All, I read something where a teacher asked a child what she wanted to be when she grew up and she said Happy! Of course, that was the
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                                            Hello I AM, Janice and All,
                                            I read something where a
                                            teacher asked a child what
                                            she wanted to be when she
                                            grew up and she said "Happy!"

                                            Of course, that was the wrong
                                            answer. Happiness is not taught
                                            in school. Yet, happiness is
                                            the end result of that which
                                            is sought by those who are
                                            taught how to think and work
                                            for a living.

                                            Personally, I'd rather the
                                            various states of happiness
                                            including contentment.

                                            And yet the EK teachings
                                            are completely Mental
                                            Plane via:

                                            The Books, like the Shariyats;
                                            CDs; DVDs; Internet Videos;
                                            Seminar Talks; the RESA
                                            Hierarchy; Guidelines; Zoas;
                                            Satsang Society and ESC
                                            Board business meetings;
                                            Workshop and Seminar
                                            planning etc., to name
                                            just a few of the Mental
                                            Plane activities and the
                                            basis for Eckankar's
                                            existence.

                                            Let's not forget those Mystic
                                            Worlds, H.I. Letters, IROs,
                                            EWS discussions, Membership
                                            Donations. These realities
                                            are not seen by ECKists
                                            because they are too willing
                                            to accept the propaganda
                                            than think for themselves
                                            and question authority.

                                            I read a quote by Frank Zappa
                                            "The difference between a
                                            religion and a cult is how
                                            much property they own."
                                            It was something like that.
                                            Look at the Mormon Church!

                                            Thus, IMO, Eckankar will
                                            always remain a cult. LOL!

                                            Prometheus

                                            iam freedom wrote:
                                            I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should
                                            not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
                                            In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy
                                            entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are
                                            naturally more happy.

                                            If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something
                                            like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists
                                            are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance
                                            their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to
                                            solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

                                            I AM.......HAPPY LOL

                                            "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                            regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                            meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                            >
                                            > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                            sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                            point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                            >
                                            > I AM
                                            >
                                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see it
                                            when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                            there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                            talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                            happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                            something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where people
                                            there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were people
                                            from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town came
                                            together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does appear to
                                            make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there is a kind
                                            of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about. We
                                            hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good. But when
                                            people are hurt, there are always others
                                            > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                            doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                            still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                            willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                            motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part of
                                            what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                            everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                            by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                            strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                            broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                            takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                            the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.Â
                                            After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                            > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they hide
                                            from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to admit
                                            that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle
                                            like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge
                                            to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths have a lot
                                            of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to
                                            see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your heart can break but
                                            can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would rather know my heart will
                                            hurt than not to feel anything for others at all. Strong loving hearts will
                                            mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the
                                            journey. Loving hearts can and will share the pain. Eckankar doesn't do
                                            anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does that say about the lem and the
                                            other leaders of
                                            > > eckankar? I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can
                                            even see. Bless all the loving eckist tonight.Â
                                            > >
                                            prometheus wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                            > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                            > > will ever become like, God,
                                            > > our imagined or possible
                                            > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                            > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                            > >
                                            > > But, it could be that the
                                            > > universe(s) just happened
                                            > > and that the remnants of
                                            > > other life forms were spread
                                            > > to this planet, and others,
                                            > > via space rubble... from
                                            > > destroyed civilizations
                                            > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                            > > intentional seeding by an
                                            > > advanced race... which was,
                                            > > itself, seeded by another
                                            > > advanced race etc.
                                            > >
                                            > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                            > > experiences we have
                                            > > are the result of
                                            > > interaction with the
                                            > > quantum mechanical
                                            > > field?
                                            > >
                                            > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                            > > that what really matters
                                            > > are relationships. It's our
                                            > > relationships with others,
                                            > > even strangers, that matter
                                            > > most. This is how we really
                                            > > learn and grow. Loving
                                            > > relationships are valuable.
                                            > >
                                            > > Klemp, and others like
                                            > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                            > > have arrested development;
                                            > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                            > > and are even psychopathic.
                                            > > They are incapable of learning,
                                            > > or caring about others (are
                                            > > unloving) and attempt to
                                            > > impede social progress and
                                            > > justice. They use the rest of
                                            > > us for their own personal
                                            > > greed and selfish desires.
                                            > >
                                            > > Then, again, this strife and
                                            > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                            > > created can make life interesting
                                            > > and a challenge, although,
                                            > > it can/will also be physically
                                            > > and emotionally painful.
                                            > >
                                            > > But, having a regular life
                                            > > without additional commitments
                                            > > and involvements can also
                                            > > offer rewarding experiences
                                            > > and insights. We are never
                                            > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                            > > not sure how peace of any
                                            > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                            > > will ever happen in a world
                                            > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                            > >
                                            > > One must care about everyone
                                            > > and have caring relationships
                                            > > with people in order for humankind
                                            > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                            > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                            > > I almost included animals, too,
                                            > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                            > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                            > > too.
                                            > >
                                            > > How can one really "care" about
                                            > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                            > > except to keep them away from
                                            > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                            > > people.
                                            > >
                                            > > When one thinks about it the
                                            > > definition of what's "normal"
                                            > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                            > > seem to be more pathological
                                            > > than the introverts don't you
                                            > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                            > > to force us introverts to become
                                            > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                            > > loves company I suppose or is
                                            > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                            > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                            > > is more intimidating.
                                            > >
                                            > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                            > > to worship and viewed as being
                                            > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                            > > from "us" being involved in our
                                            > > lives because of the differences
                                            > > we see in one another. This is
                                            > > why there are so many different
                                            > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                            > > and wrong.
                                            > >
                                            > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                            > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                            > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                            > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                            > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                            > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                            > > use God as our scape goat.
                                            > >
                                            > > There are major flaws with all
                                            > > of these religions and the so-called
                                            > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                            > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                            > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                            > > validation is that these various
                                            > > people in history/myth that the
                                            > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                            > > to have said or done some nice,
                                            > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                            > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                            > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                            > > have given them credibility, because
                                            > > it is believed and taught that
                                            > > only Divine Intercession could
                                            > > have been the source for their
                                            > > Divine Inspiration.
                                            > >
                                            > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                            > > today, who are not even followers
                                            > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                            > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                            > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                            > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                            > > of these major and minor religions.
                                            > > Many of these people inspired
                                            > > others by never giving up in time
                                            > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                            > > there weren't many other choices.
                                            > > Even those who did give up and
                                            > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                            > > maintained their faith and this
                                            > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                            > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                            > > for religions there are an awful
                                            > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                            > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                            > >
                                            > > Prometheus
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                            > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                            > > with unconditional love for the
                                            > > master and you get a submissive
                                            > > control pattern as your reward.
                                            > > Buyer beware!
                                            > >
                                            > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                            > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                            > > an experiment to see if we
                                            > > are all capable of evolving
                                            > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                            > > Are we to become more than
                                            > > merely a divine thought?
                                            > > Maybe there is something
                                            > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                            > > analogy."
                                            > >
                                            > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                            > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                            > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                            > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
                                            misinterpreting
                                            > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                            > >
                                            > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                            > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                            > >
                                            > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                            > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
                                            event.
                                            > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
                                            person
                                            > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                            > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
                                            moving
                                            > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
                                            more
                                            > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                            > >
                                            > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                            > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                            > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
                                            expressions
                                            > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                            > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                            > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                            > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                            > >
                                            > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                            > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                            > >
                                            > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                            > >
                                            > > I AM
                                            > >
                                            > > prometheus wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Hello Non and All,
                                            > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                            > > > summary. I was exploring
                                            > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                            > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                            > > > and saw a reference to a
                                            > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                            > > >
                                            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                            > > >
                                            > > > This person is mentioned
                                            > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                            > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                            > > > Faith.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Even when God seems to
                                            > > > turn his back and: causes
                                            > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                            > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                            > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                            > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                            > > > and killed, one is to have
                                            > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                            > > > reward for keeping this
                                            > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                            > > > you to believe in him
                                            > > > regardless of what pain
                                            > > > he allows to befall you.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > One needs to project
                                            > > > a sense of hope in order
                                            > > > to better endure life, as
                                            > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                            > > > challenges when you believe
                                            > > > that God is on your side and
                                            > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > However, does God really
                                            > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                            > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                            > > > an experiment to see if we
                                            > > > are all capable of evolving
                                            > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                            > > > Are we to become more than
                                            > > > merely a divine thought?
                                            > > > Maybe there is something
                                            > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                            > > > analogy.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                            > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                            > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                            > > > deserved the punishments as
                                            > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                            > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                            > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                            > > > most religions see everyday
                                            > > > living and hardships as a test
                                            > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                            > > > to donate money to support
                                            > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                            > > > says and promises the same
                                            > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                            > > > hereafter.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                            > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                            > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                            > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                            > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                            > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                            > > > admit.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Well, got to go now....
                                            > > > I just had some thoughts
                                            > > > to share.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Prometheus
                                            > > >
                                            > > "Non" wrote:
                                            > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                            > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                            > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
                                            anything
                                            > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                            > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                            > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                            > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                            > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                            > > >
                                            > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                            > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                            > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                            > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
                                            Dahlia
                                            > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                            > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                            > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
                                            religion,
                                            > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
                                            Struggle
                                            > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                            > > >
                                            > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                            > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                            > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
                                            benign
                                            > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
                                            actually
                                            > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
                                            out
                                            > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Non ;)
                                            > > >
                                            > > > prometheus wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Hello Janice,
                                            > > > Yes, one would think that
                                            > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                            > > > would, at least, attempt
                                            > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                            > > > that's not the case with
                                            > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                            > > > out there by demonstrating
                                            > > > his powers? It's not like
                                            > > > he announced to the
                                            > > > whole world that he was....
                                            > > > oh wait, he did!
                                            > > >
                                            > > > That was a long time ago
                                            > > > and he never did make
                                            > > > any predictions as most
                                            > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                            > > > made some predictions.
                                            > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                            > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                            > > > mine and that's why he
                                            > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                            > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                            > > > as a real prophet.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                            > > > cautious of being too
                                            > > > direct and understood.
                                            > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                            > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                            > > > imagine what they want,
                                            > > > need and expect until
                                            > > > they go too far and have
                                            > > > to have a behaviour
                                            > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                            > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                            > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                            > > > perspective when he tells
                                            > > > a story.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                            > > > why put too much
                                            > > > effort into it! And, he
                                            > > > figures that all he needs
                                            > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                            > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                            > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                            > > > will substitute Soul for
                                            > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                            > > >
                                            > > > It's really quite amazing
                                            > > > how simple Klemp's
                                            > > > redundant message is.
                                            > > > If EKists would just compare
                                            > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                            > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                            > > > leaders one would have
                                            > > > to wonder what they see
                                            > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                            > > > but they just laugh at his
                                            > > > quirkiness because he's
                                            > > > operating on so many
                                            > > > high planes of consciousness
                                            > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                            > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                            > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                            > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                            > > > park with the current Dali
                                            > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                            > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                            > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                            > > > religion while Eckankar
                                            > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                            > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                            > > > the two leaders and how
                                            > > > they present themselves
                                            > > > and what they have to say.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Will ECKists make the
                                            > > > comparison? No, of course
                                            > > > not! They won't even allow
                                            > > > the door to be opened a
                                            > > > crack because some light
                                            > > > might get in and show
                                            > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                            > > > handle the Truth and
                                            > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                            > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                            > > > what would they replace
                                            > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                            > > > responsibility to think for
                                            > > > oneself and exercise free
                                            > > > will. And, it would make
                                            > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                            > > > of those EK friends.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Prometheus
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
                                            that
                                            > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
                                            say
                                            > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he
                                            is
                                            > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
                                            ask
                                            > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                            > > > charlatan to me.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The December 2012
                                            > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                            > > > in the Ask the Master
                                            > > > section are two interesting
                                            > > > questions and answers.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The first question has
                                            > > > to do with Stress and
                                            > > > how to overcome it.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                            > > > washy at best. He says
                                            > > > that stress is "very
                                            > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                            > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                            > > > that people can increase
                                            > > > their tolerance to stress
                                            > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                            > > > enough sleep, and by
                                            > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                            > > > of electronic devices."
                                            > > >
                                            > > > In other words it seems
                                            > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                            > > > roundabout way, to use
                                            > > > moderation. After all,
                                            > > > he's saying to reduce
                                            > > > "overuse."
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Then, again, how does
                                            > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                            > > > not use their computer
                                            > > > 8 hours a day?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The next question involves
                                            > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                            > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                            > > > boy and two days later his
                                            > > > mother translated (died).
                                            > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                            > > > new baby was his mother.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                            > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                            > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                            > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                            > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                            > > > anything at all can happen...
                                            > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                            > > > son, everything is in accord
                                            > > > with what is best for all around."
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Prometheus
                                          • prometheus_973
                                            Hello Tusa8, Let me try to address your questions and concerns. tuza8 wrote: Hi, prometheus and all, Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai, I
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                                              Hello Tusa8,
                                              Let me try to address
                                              your questions and
                                              concerns.

                                              "tuza8" wrote:
                                              "Hi, prometheus and all,

                                              Actually, I am former disciple
                                              of master ching hai,

                                              I dont think she is fake master,"

                                              ***
                                              ME: Yes, she is a FAKE!
                                              You are more of a Master
                                              than she is! Why? Because
                                              you have more integrity,
                                              more honesty, more
                                              detachment, and fewer
                                              desires than Ching Hai.

                                              A true Master cannot be
                                              a greedy Capitalist who
                                              uses excuses and a slight
                                              of hand (magic) to turn
                                              appearances into illusion.
                                              She is not humble nor is
                                              she enlightened, especially,
                                              in this Field of Action.
                                              ***

                                              "but regarding her level,
                                              she said she is 8 trillion
                                              initiate right now,"

                                              ***
                                              ME: A True Master does
                                              not brag about being a
                                              Master nor disclose that
                                              they are a Master nor
                                              do they disclose their
                                              "initiations."
                                              ***

                                              "I dont believe. ,
                                              because from 1986 untill
                                              now just 27 years,

                                              how can her achieve such
                                              level?

                                              is it possible once achieve
                                              that level in a short time?
                                              27 year?"

                                              ***
                                              ME: These outrageous claims
                                              by Ching Hai are simply more
                                              proof that she is a fraud. Those
                                              who would believe such lies
                                              have been tested and have
                                              Passed her brainwashing test.

                                              Many cult leaders, via increments,
                                              will test the waters. They will
                                              make a subtle, but illogical,
                                              or exaggerated claim or statement
                                              and see what happens. If it
                                              goes unnoticed/unquestioned
                                              or unchallenged and is accepted,
                                              then, more and more lies and
                                              outrageous claims and orders
                                              can be made or handed out
                                              until the only people left are
                                              those glassy-eyed brainwashed
                                              and loyal fanatics who have
                                              stopped thinking for themselves.
                                              ***

                                              "you are a master, so,
                                              you know the answer.

                                              is it possible?
                                              pls tell me."

                                              ***
                                              ME: I AM No Master.
                                              Even if you were to
                                              dream of me I would
                                              not be a Master. You
                                              are your own Master!
                                              Dream of yourself as
                                              a Master. This, in Truth,
                                              is your secret identity.

                                              Anyway, I've told you.

                                              If you have ears to hear
                                              you will hear and, I hope,
                                              will understand my words
                                              and advice.

                                              I'm not perfect... but
                                              neither is God. LOL!

                                              Prometheus



                                              prometheus wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hello Tuza8,
                                              > Welcome to the site!
                                              > Thanks for the info
                                              > on, yet, another religious
                                              > scammer/fraud.
                                              >
                                              > I'm assuming that your
                                              > questions are rhetorical.
                                              >
                                              > I found some info on this
                                              > person and the following
                                              > video:
                                              >
                                              > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
                                              >
                                              > Here's more info that that
                                              > I uncovered on Wikipedia:
                                              >
                                              > [Note the info within the (*****)
                                              > It sounds a lot like Klemp's
                                              > Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
                                              >
                                              > Quan Yin Method
                                              >
                                              > In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the
                                              'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin
                                              Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat
                                              tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she
                                              severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with
                                              which she is now associated.[10]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > *****
                                              > Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know
                                              it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was
                                              first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way
                                              of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to
                                              the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha
                                              nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that
                                              those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
                                              >
                                              > Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is
                                              purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best,
                                              easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves
                                              meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that
                                              she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged
                                              repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
                                              > *****
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for
                                              initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of
                                              beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products
                                              gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
                                              >
                                              > "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin
                                              Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five
                                              precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
                                              >
                                              > Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
                                              > Refrain from speaking what is not true.
                                              > Refrain from taking what is not offered.
                                              > Refrain from sexual misconduct.
                                              > Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
                                              >
                                              > [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
                                              >
                                              > Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is
                                              commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread
                                              without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset
                                              of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a
                                              list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it
                                              included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
                                              >
                                              > The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were
                                              fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious
                                              organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At
                                              the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July
                                              1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in
                                              20 provinces and cities.[10]
                                              >
                                              > In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment
                                              Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover
                                              to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise
                                              allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and
                                              business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices
                                              and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to
                                              recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies
                                              of "heretical texts."[10]
                                              >
                                              > [edit]Criticism
                                              >
                                              > [edit]Environmental violations
                                              > In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in
                                              Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally
                                              constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the
                                              pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400
                                              and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The
                                              private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by
                                              police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned
                                              to establish a park on the site.[33]
                                              >
                                              > Yes, I read where she is
                                              > very popular in Taiwan
                                              > and that she has 20,000
                                              > followers world wide.
                                              >
                                              > She's half Vietnamese
                                              > and Chinese and became
                                              > a disciple of Thakar Singh
                                              > and studied Surat Shabd
                                              > Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
                                              > Light and Sound), but
                                              > was, later, initiated by
                                              > a Buddhist monk.
                                              >
                                              > All those who follow
                                              > her are asked to become
                                              > Vegetarians and initiation
                                              > is free of charge. It doesn't
                                              > appear that there is a
                                              > Membership Donation/Fee
                                              > like with Ecklankar, but
                                              > she does make a lot of
                                              > money by selling books,
                                              > videos, etc. She also owns
                                              > Vegetarian and Vegan
                                              > Restaurants (Loving Hut),
                                              > has jewelry outlets, and
                                              > designs her own clothing
                                              > line.
                                              >
                                              > Her name, Ching Hai,
                                              > means "pure ocean."
                                              >
                                              > Google the "Quan Yin
                                              > Method" to find out
                                              > more about her daily
                                              > meditation of the inner
                                              > L & S.
                                              >
                                              > She's been described as a:
                                              > "tireless publicity seeker;
                                              > The Immaterial Girl... Part
                                              > Buddha, Part Madonna;
                                              > The Buddhist Martha Stewart
                                              > ... merchandizing mystic
                                              > from Taiwan."
                                              >
                                              > So, it seems that because
                                              > of her Buddhist connections
                                              > that she's associated with
                                              > the more familiar Buddhism,
                                              > however, she teaches the
                                              > less known (outside India)
                                              > Surat Shabd Yoga as does
                                              > ECKankar.
                                              >
                                              > Funny, though, that her
                                              > religion/enterprise had
                                              > a later start than ECKankar
                                              > but is making more money
                                              > and bringing in more people.
                                              >
                                              > Prometheus
                                              >
                                              > "tuza8" wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hi prometheu,
                                              > I agree what you said,
                                              > they are some false master
                                              > in public.
                                              >
                                              > recently one femala master,
                                              > her name is master ching hai,
                                              > master ching hai claim herself
                                              > is 8 billion plane initiation level,
                                              >
                                              > do you believe it?
                                              >
                                              > in 1985 she become master
                                              > and began taught mediatation
                                              > on light and sound, whom said
                                              > come from higher world into
                                              > this lower world ,
                                              >
                                              > her also said come to this
                                              > lower world many times,
                                              > alway is a master for help
                                              > people.
                                              >
                                              > do you believe?
                                            • Janice Pfeiffer
                                              Hi I am, It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven t learned much
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 9, 2013
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                                                Hi I am,
                                                It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 

                                                --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

                                                From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM

                                                 
                                                Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

                                                Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

                                                I AM

                                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                                > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                                > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the other leaders of
                                                > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                                >
                                                > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > From: prometheus_973
                                                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >  
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                > will ever become like, God,
                                                > our imagined or possible
                                                > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                >
                                                > But, it could be that the
                                                > universe(s) just happened
                                                > and that the remnants of
                                                > other life forms were spread
                                                > to this planet, and others,
                                                > via space rubble... from
                                                > destroyed civilizations
                                                > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                > intentional seeding by an
                                                > advanced race... which was,
                                                > itself, seeded by another
                                                > advanced race etc.
                                                >
                                                > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                > experiences we have
                                                > are the result of
                                                > interaction with the
                                                > quantum mechanical
                                                > field?
                                                >
                                                > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                > that what really matters
                                                > are relationships. It's our
                                                > relationships with others,
                                                > even strangers, that matter
                                                > most. This is how we really
                                                > learn and grow. Loving
                                                > relationships are valuable.
                                                >
                                                > Klemp, and others like
                                                > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                > have arrested development;
                                                > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                > and are even psychopathic.
                                                > They are incapable of learning,
                                                > or caring about others (are
                                                > unloving) and attempt to
                                                > impede social progress and
                                                > justice. They use the rest of
                                                > us for their own personal
                                                > greed and selfish desires.
                                                >
                                                > Then, again, this strife and
                                                > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                > created can make life interesting
                                                > and a challenge, although,
                                                > it can/will also be physically
                                                > and emotionally painful.
                                                >
                                                > But, having a regular life
                                                > without additional commitments
                                                > and involvements can also
                                                > offer rewarding experiences
                                                > and insights. We are never
                                                > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                > not sure how peace of any
                                                > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                > will ever happen in a world
                                                > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                >
                                                > One must care about everyone
                                                > and have caring relationships
                                                > with people in order for humankind
                                                > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                > I almost included animals, too,
                                                > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                > too.
                                                >
                                                > How can one really "care" about
                                                > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                > except to keep them away from
                                                > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                > people.
                                                >
                                                > When one thinks about it the
                                                > definition of what's "normal"
                                                > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                > seem to be more pathological
                                                > than the introverts don't you
                                                > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                > to force us introverts to become
                                                > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                > loves company I suppose or is
                                                > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                > is more intimidating.
                                                >
                                                > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                > to worship and viewed as being
                                                > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                > from "us" being involved in our
                                                > lives because of the differences
                                                > we see in one another. This is
                                                > why there are so many different
                                                > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                > and wrong.
                                                >
                                                > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                > use God as our scape goat.
                                                >
                                                > There are major flaws with all
                                                > of these religions and the so-called
                                                > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                > validation is that these various
                                                > people in history/myth that the
                                                > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                > to have said or done some nice,
                                                > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                > have given them credibility, because
                                                > it is believed and taught that
                                                > only Divine Intercession could
                                                > have been the source for their
                                                > Divine Inspiration.
                                                >
                                                > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                > today, who are not even followers
                                                > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                > of these major and minor religions.
                                                > Many of these people inspired
                                                > others by never giving up in time
                                                > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                > there weren't many other choices.
                                                > Even those who did give up and
                                                > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                > maintained their faith and this
                                                > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                > for religions there are an awful
                                                > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                >
                                                > Prometheus
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                > with unconditional love for the
                                                > master and you get a submissive
                                                > control pattern as your reward.
                                                > Buyer beware!
                                                >
                                                > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                > an experiment to see if we
                                                > are all capable of evolving
                                                > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                > Are we to become more than
                                                > merely a divine thought?
                                                > Maybe there is something
                                                > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                > analogy."
                                                >
                                                > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                                > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                                > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                                > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                                > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                                >
                                                > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                                > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                                >
                                                > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                                > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                                > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                                > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                                > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                                > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                                > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                                >
                                                > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                                > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                                > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                                > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                                > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                                > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                                > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                                >
                                                > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                                > that it would ever be necessary.
                                                >
                                                > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                                >
                                                > I AM
                                                >
                                                > prometheus wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hello Non and All,
                                                > > Thanks for the insightful
                                                > > summary. I was exploring
                                                > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                                > > charismatic Christian churches
                                                > > and saw a reference to a
                                                > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                                > >
                                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                                > >
                                                > > This person is mentioned
                                                > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                                > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                                > > Faith.
                                                > >
                                                > > Even when God seems to
                                                > > turn his back and: causes
                                                > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                                > > lost; cities attacked and
                                                > > overrun by your enemies;
                                                > > people brutalized, tortured
                                                > > and killed, one is to have
                                                > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                                > > reward for keeping this
                                                > > faith. God's ego needs
                                                > > you to believe in him
                                                > > regardless of what pain
                                                > > he allows to befall you.
                                                > >
                                                > > One needs to project
                                                > > a sense of hope in order
                                                > > to better endure life, as
                                                > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                                > >
                                                > > And, it's easier to face these
                                                > > challenges when you believe
                                                > > that God is on your side and
                                                > > not that of your oppressor.
                                                > >
                                                > > However, does God really
                                                > > take sides? It seems that God
                                                > > is/was created in man's image.
                                                > >
                                                > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                > > an experiment to see if we
                                                > > are all capable of evolving
                                                > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                > > Are we to become more than
                                                > > merely a divine thought?
                                                > > Maybe there is something
                                                > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                > > analogy.
                                                > >
                                                > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                                > > has the belief that you (and your
                                                > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                                > > deserved the punishments as
                                                > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                                > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                                > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                                > > most religions see everyday
                                                > > living and hardships as a test
                                                > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                                > > to donate money to support
                                                > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                                > > says and promises the same
                                                > > or similar things in the imagined
                                                > > hereafter.
                                                > >
                                                > > Plus, each religion has always
                                                > > blamed the non-believers for
                                                > > the sins that they suffer under
                                                > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                                > > and Klemp is more like these
                                                > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                                > > admit.
                                                > >
                                                > > Well, got to go now....
                                                > > I just had some thoughts
                                                > > to share.
                                                > >
                                                > > Prometheus
                                                > >
                                                > "Non" wrote:
                                                > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                                > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                                > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                                > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                                > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                                > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                                > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                                > answers to ask the master etc.
                                                > >
                                                > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                                > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                                > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                                > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                                > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                                > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                                > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                                > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                                > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                                > >
                                                > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                                > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                                > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                                > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                                > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                                > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                                > >
                                                > > Non ;)
                                                > >
                                                > > prometheus wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hello Janice,
                                                > > Yes, one would think that
                                                > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                                > > would, at least, attempt
                                                > > to live up to his PR, but
                                                > > that's not the case with
                                                > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                                > > out there by demonstrating
                                                > > his powers? It's not like
                                                > > he announced to the
                                                > > whole world that he was....
                                                > > oh wait, he did!
                                                > >
                                                > > That was a long time ago
                                                > > and he never did make
                                                > > any predictions as most
                                                > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                                > > made some predictions.
                                                > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                                > > haven't noticed and don't
                                                > > mine and that's why he
                                                > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                                > > to preform his responsibilities
                                                > > as a real prophet.
                                                > >
                                                > > Instead, Harold is very
                                                > > cautious of being too
                                                > > direct and understood.
                                                > > He'd rather have EKists
                                                > > fill-in the blanks and
                                                > > imagine what they want,
                                                > > need and expect until
                                                > > they go too far and have
                                                > > to have a behaviour
                                                > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                                > > That's why Klemp usually
                                                > > gives a very one dimensional
                                                > > perspective when he tells
                                                > > a story.
                                                > >
                                                > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                                > > why put too much
                                                > > effort into it! And, he
                                                > > figures that all he needs
                                                > > to do is the KISS thing
                                                > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                                > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                                > > will substitute Soul for
                                                > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                                > >
                                                > > It's really quite amazing
                                                > > how simple Klemp's
                                                > > redundant message is.
                                                > > If EKists would just compare
                                                > > Klemp's simple minded
                                                > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                                > > leaders one would have
                                                > > to wonder what they see
                                                > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                                > > but they just laugh at his
                                                > > quirkiness because he's
                                                > > operating on so many
                                                > > high planes of consciousness
                                                > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                                > >
                                                > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                                > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                                > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                                > > isn't even in the same ball
                                                > > park with the current Dali
                                                > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                                > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                                > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                                > > religion while Eckankar
                                                > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                                > > But, EKists need to compare
                                                > > the two leaders and how
                                                > > they present themselves
                                                > > and what they have to say.
                                                > >
                                                > > Will ECKists make the
                                                > > comparison? No, of course
                                                > > not! They won't even allow
                                                > > the door to be opened a
                                                > > crack because some light
                                                > > might get in and show
                                                > > them the Truth. They can't
                                                > > handle the Truth and
                                                > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                                > > It's much easier, besides,
                                                > > what would they replace
                                                > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                                > > responsibility to think for
                                                > > oneself and exercise free
                                                > > will. And, it would make
                                                > > life too lonely to lose all
                                                > > of those EK friends.
                                                > >
                                                > > Prometheus
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                                > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                                > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                                > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                                > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                                > > charlatan to me.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Prometheus wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > The December 2012
                                                > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                                > > in the Ask the Master
                                                > > section are two interesting
                                                > > questions and answers.
                                                > >
                                                > > The first question has
                                                > > to do with Stress and
                                                > > how to overcome it.
                                                > >
                                                > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                                > > washy at best. He says
                                                > > that stress is "very
                                                > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                                > > stress is a good teacher."
                                                > >
                                                > > Klemp goes on to say
                                                > > that people can increase
                                                > > their tolerance to stress
                                                > > by eating healthy, getting
                                                > > enough sleep, and by
                                                > > "Reducing our overuse
                                                > > of electronic devices."
                                                > >
                                                > > In other words it seems
                                                > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                                > > roundabout way, to use
                                                > > moderation. After all,
                                                > > he's saying to reduce
                                                > > "overuse."
                                                > >
                                                > > Then, again, how does
                                                > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                                > > not use their computer
                                                > > 8 hours a day?
                                                > >
                                                > > The next question involves
                                                > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                                > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                                > > boy and two days later his
                                                > > mother translated (died).
                                                > > He indirectly asked if this
                                                > > new baby was his mother.
                                                > >
                                                > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                                > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                                > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                                > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                                > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                                > > anything at all can happen...
                                                > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                                > > son, everything is in accord
                                                > > with what is best for all around."
                                                > >
                                                > > Prometheus
                                                >

                                              • Non
                                                Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                                  Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.

                                                  Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.

                                                  Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.

                                                  Non ;)

                                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi I am,
                                                  > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
                                                  >
                                                  > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > From: iam999freedom
                                                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >  
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                                  >
                                                  > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                                  >
                                                  > I AM
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
                                                  > there are always others
                                                  > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
                                                  > busy hiding their
                                                  > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
                                                  > other leaders of
                                                  > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > From: prometheus_973
                                                  > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                                  > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >  
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                  > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                  > > will ever become like, God,
                                                  > > our imagined or possible
                                                  > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                  > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > But, it could be that the
                                                  > > universe(s) just happened
                                                  > > and that the remnants of
                                                  > > other life forms were spread
                                                  > > to this planet, and others,
                                                  > > via space rubble... from
                                                  > > destroyed civilizations
                                                  > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                  > > intentional seeding by an
                                                  > > advanced race... which was,
                                                  > > itself, seeded by another
                                                  > > advanced race etc.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                  > > experiences we have
                                                  > > are the result of
                                                  > > interaction with the
                                                  > > quantum mechanical
                                                  > > field?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                  > > that what really matters
                                                  > > are relationships. It's our
                                                  > > relationships with others,
                                                  > > even strangers, that matter
                                                  > > most. This is how we really
                                                  > > learn and grow. Loving
                                                  > > relationships are valuable.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Klemp, and others like
                                                  > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                  > > have arrested development;
                                                  > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                  > > and are even psychopathic.
                                                  > > They are incapable of learning,
                                                  > > or caring about others (are
                                                  > > unloving) and attempt to
                                                  > > impede social progress and
                                                  > > justice. They use the rest of
                                                  > > us for their own personal
                                                  > > greed and selfish desires.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Then, again, this strife and
                                                  > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                  > > created can make life interesting
                                                  > > and a challenge, although,
                                                  > > it can/will also be physically
                                                  > > and emotionally painful.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > But, having a regular life
                                                  > > without additional commitments
                                                  > > and involvements can also
                                                  > > offer rewarding experiences
                                                  > > and insights. We are never
                                                  > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                  > > not sure how peace of any
                                                  > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                  > > will ever happen in a world
                                                  > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > One must care about everyone
                                                  > > and have caring relationships
                                                  > > with people in order for humankind
                                                  > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                  > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                  > > I almost included animals, too,
                                                  > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                  > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                  > > too.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > How can one really "care" about
                                                  > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                  > > except to keep them away from
                                                  > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                  > > people.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > When one thinks about it the
                                                  > > definition of what's "normal"
                                                  > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                  > > seem to be more pathological
                                                  > > than the introverts don't you
                                                  > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                  > > to force us introverts to become
                                                  > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                  > > loves company I suppose or is
                                                  > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                  > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                  > > is more intimidating.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                  > > to worship and viewed as being
                                                  > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                  > > from "us" being involved in our
                                                  > > lives because of the differences
                                                  > > we see in one another. This is
                                                  > > why there are so many different
                                                  > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                  > > and wrong.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                  > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                  > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                  > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                  > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                  > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                  > > use God as our scape goat.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > There are major flaws with all
                                                  > > of these religions and the so-called
                                                  > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                  > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                  > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                  > > validation is that these various
                                                  > > people in history/myth that the
                                                  > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                  > > to have said or done some nice,
                                                  > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                  > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                  > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                  > > have given them credibility, because
                                                  > > it is believed and taught that
                                                  > > only Divine Intercession could
                                                  > > have been the source for their
                                                  > > Divine Inspiration.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                  > > today, who are not even followers
                                                  > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                  > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                  > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                  > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                  > > of these major and minor religions.
                                                  > > Many of these people inspired
                                                  > > others by never giving up in time
                                                  > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                  > > there weren't many other choices.
                                                  > > Even those who did give up and
                                                  > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                  > > maintained their faith and this
                                                  > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                  > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                  > > for religions there are an awful
                                                  > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                  > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Prometheus
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                  > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                  > > with unconditional love for the
                                                  > > master and you get a submissive
                                                  > > control pattern as your reward.
                                                  > > Buyer beware!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                  > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                  > > an experiment to see if we
                                                  > > are all capable of evolving
                                                  > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                  > > Are we to become more than
                                                  > > merely a divine thought?
                                                  > > Maybe there is something
                                                  > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                  > > analogy."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                                  > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                                  > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                                  > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                                  > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                                  > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                                  > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                                  > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                                  > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                                  > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                                  > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                                  > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                                  > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                                  > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                                  > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                                  > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                                  > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                                  > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                                  > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I AM
                                                  > >
                                                  > > prometheus wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Hello Non and All,
                                                  > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                                  > > > summary. I was exploring
                                                  > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                                  > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                                  > > > and saw a reference to a
                                                  > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > This person is mentioned
                                                  > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                                  > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                                  > > > Faith.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Even when God seems to
                                                  > > > turn his back and: causes
                                                  > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                                  > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                                  > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                                  > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                                  > > > and killed, one is to have
                                                  > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                                  > > > reward for keeping this
                                                  > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                                  > > > you to believe in him
                                                  > > > regardless of what pain
                                                  > > > he allows to befall you.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > One needs to project
                                                  > > > a sense of hope in order
                                                  > > > to better endure life, as
                                                  > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                                  > > > challenges when you believe
                                                  > > > that God is on your side and
                                                  > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > However, does God really
                                                  > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                                  > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                  > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                  > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                  > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                  > > > Are we to become more than
                                                  > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                  > > > Maybe there is something
                                                  > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                  > > > analogy.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                                  > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                                  > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                                  > > > deserved the punishments as
                                                  > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                                  > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                                  > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                                  > > > most religions see everyday
                                                  > > > living and hardships as a test
                                                  > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                                  > > > to donate money to support
                                                  > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                                  > > > says and promises the same
                                                  > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                                  > > > hereafter.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                                  > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                                  > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                                  > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                                  > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                                  > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                                  > > > admit.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Well, got to go now....
                                                  > > > I just had some thoughts
                                                  > > > to share.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Prometheus
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > "Non" wrote:
                                                  > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                                  > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                                  > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                                  > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                                  > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                                  > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                                  > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                                  > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                                  > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                                  > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                                  > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                                  > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                                  > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                                  > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                                  > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                                  > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                                  > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                                  > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                                  > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                                  > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                                  > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Non ;)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > prometheus wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Hello Janice,
                                                  > > > Yes, one would think that
                                                  > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                                  > > > would, at least, attempt
                                                  > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                                  > > > that's not the case with
                                                  > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                                  > > > out there by demonstrating
                                                  > > > his powers? It's not like
                                                  > > > he announced to the
                                                  > > > whole world that he was....
                                                  > > > oh wait, he did!
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > That was a long time ago
                                                  > > > and he never did make
                                                  > > > any predictions as most
                                                  > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                                  > > > made some predictions.
                                                  > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                                  > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                                  > > > mine and that's why he
                                                  > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                                  > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                                  > > > as a real prophet.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                                  > > > cautious of being too
                                                  > > > direct and understood.
                                                  > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                                  > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                                  > > > imagine what they want,
                                                  > > > need and expect until
                                                  > > > they go too far and have
                                                  > > > to have a behaviour
                                                  > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                                  > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                                  > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                                  > > > perspective when he tells
                                                  > > > a story.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                                  > > > why put too much
                                                  > > > effort into it! And, he
                                                  > > > figures that all he needs
                                                  > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                                  > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                                  > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                                  > > > will substitute Soul for
                                                  > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > It's really quite amazing
                                                  > > > how simple Klemp's
                                                  > > > redundant message is.
                                                  > > > If EKists would just compare
                                                  > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                                  > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                                  > > > leaders one would have
                                                  > > > to wonder what they see
                                                  > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                                  > > > but they just laugh at his
                                                  > > > quirkiness because he's
                                                  > > > operating on so many
                                                  > > > high planes of consciousness
                                                  > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                                  > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                                  > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                                  > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                                  > > > park with the current Dali
                                                  > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                                  > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                                  > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                                  > > > religion while Eckankar
                                                  > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                                  > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                                  > > > the two leaders and how
                                                  > > > they present themselves
                                                  > > > and what they have to say.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Will ECKists make the
                                                  > > > comparison? No, of course
                                                  > > > not! They won't even allow
                                                  > > > the door to be opened a
                                                  > > > crack because some light
                                                  > > > might get in and show
                                                  > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                                  > > > handle the Truth and
                                                  > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                                  > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                                  > > > what would they replace
                                                  > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                                  > > > responsibility to think for
                                                  > > > oneself and exercise free
                                                  > > > will. And, it would make
                                                  > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                                  > > > of those EK friends.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Prometheus
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                  > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                                  > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                                  > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                                  > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                                  > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                                  > > > charlatan to me.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > The December 2012
                                                  > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                                  > > > in the Ask the Master
                                                  > > > section are two interesting
                                                  > > > questions and answers.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > The first question has
                                                  > > > to do with Stress and
                                                  > > > how to overcome it.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                                  > > > washy at best. He says
                                                  > > > that stress is "very
                                                  > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                                  > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                                  > > > that people can increase
                                                  > > > their tolerance to stress
                                                  > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                                  > > > enough sleep, and by
                                                  > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                                  > > > of electronic devices."
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > In other words it seems
                                                  > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                                  > > > roundabout way, to use
                                                  > > > moderation. After all,
                                                  > > > he's saying to reduce
                                                  > > > "overuse."
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Then, again, how does
                                                  > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                                  > > > not use their computer
                                                  > > > 8 hours a day?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > The next question involves
                                                  > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                                  > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                                  > > > boy and two days later his
                                                  > > > mother translated (died).
                                                  > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                                  > > > new baby was his mother.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                                  > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                                  > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                                  > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                                  > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                                  > > > anything at all can happen...
                                                  > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                                  > > > son, everything is in accord
                                                  > > > with what is best for all around."
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Prometheus
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • etznab18
                                                  However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It states that the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                                    "However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It states that "the spiritual workers created man and placed
                                                    within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul."

                                                    ***

                                                    Then the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul; and man became like the living gods of the spirit worlds with intellectual powers, physical strength, and Soul. ... ." - S.K.S., Book One, p. 44

                                                    Compare with:

                                                    "The Seventh Command: And when this was done, the Seventh Intellect said: 'Let us make man after our own fashion and let us endow him with powers to rule this earth.' Then the Seven-Headed Intellect, The Creator of All Things throughout the Universe, created man and placed within his body a living, imperishable spirit, and man became like the Creator in intellectual power."

                                                    http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ssm/ssm07.htm

                                                    and (this is the older version)

                                                    "Then Narayana, the Seven-headed Intellect, the Creator of all things throughout the universe, created man, and placed within his body a living, imperishable spirit, and man became like Narayana in intellectual power. Then was creation complete."

                                                    http://campbellmgold.com/archive_esoteric/lost_continent_mu_churchward_1931.pdf

                                                    Judging by the number of other similarities between writings of Twitchell and Churchward (concerning creation and Lemuria, etc.) I wonder if that quote by Twitchell was not entirely original. In fact, I believe Churchward's first book (Lost Continent of Mu) was part of the recommended reading list mentioned in LTG.

                                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Hello I Am,
                                                    > Okay, let me give it
                                                    > a shot and use some
                                                    > excerpts etc.
                                                    >
                                                    > HK's talking about
                                                    > psychological studies
                                                    > using identical twins
                                                    > (not conjoined) that
                                                    > were separated soon
                                                    > after birth. They grew
                                                    > up elsewhere and had
                                                    > different influences
                                                    > but dressed the same
                                                    > and had the same type
                                                    > of dog and gave the
                                                    > dog the same name etc.,
                                                    > etc.
                                                    >
                                                    > Thus, it seems that
                                                    > Free Will relies upon
                                                    > genetics (nature) more
                                                    > than it does upon nurture,
                                                    > although, HK says that
                                                    > Yogi Berra stated that
                                                    > "in theory, practice doesn't
                                                    > matter; in practice, it does."
                                                    >
                                                    > BTW- According to Klemp
                                                    > "The Lords of Karma have
                                                    > selected a body with the
                                                    > appropriate genes for each
                                                    > student."
                                                    >
                                                    > However, HK has somewhat
                                                    > contradicted what is in CH.
                                                    > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                                                    > that "the spiritual workers
                                                    > created man and placed
                                                    > within him a living imperishable
                                                    > Spirit, called Soul."
                                                    >
                                                    > There is no other mention
                                                    > of these "spiritual workers."
                                                    >
                                                    > Anywho-
                                                    >
                                                    > HK is so clever the way
                                                    > he'll twist a quote to add
                                                    > even more confusion to
                                                    > his message of absolute
                                                    > servitude and obedience.
                                                    >
                                                    > I counted HK using "But"
                                                    > four times. In an old H.I.
                                                    > Letter he said never to
                                                    > use "But" with one another
                                                    > and that it was a nail in
                                                    > the coffin of invention and
                                                    > took away from what was
                                                    > previously said.
                                                    >
                                                    > HK:
                                                    > "BUT they dug in their heels
                                                    > at the finding that such twins'
                                                    > IQs were nearly as similar as
                                                    > their heights."
                                                    >
                                                    > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                                                    > set. A kind owner may let it out
                                                    > into the room on occasion. BUT
                                                    > it is still in a house."
                                                    >
                                                    > "Researchers, too, can advance
                                                    > only to a fixed point in their studies
                                                    > of what elements make up a whole
                                                    > individual. BUT they do not have
                                                    > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                                                    > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                                                    >
                                                    > Funny that Klemp states that he
                                                    > holds "a magical key" to control
                                                    > others like a Black Magician would.
                                                    >
                                                    > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                                                    > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                                                    > must have the right kind and amount
                                                    > of daily experiences."
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                                                    > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                                                    > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                                                    > the "right kind and amount of daily
                                                    > experiences."
                                                    >
                                                    > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                                                    > doesn't like science and psychologists
                                                    > since getting locked up in an asylum
                                                    > and having to "play-the-game" to
                                                    > be released early.
                                                    >
                                                    > HK states that "Real free will rests
                                                    > entirely on trusting the Master's
                                                    > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                                                    > many choices to make in all things
                                                    > human and divine."
                                                    >
                                                    > In other words do as I say not
                                                    > as I do and there is no such
                                                    > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                                                    > Does that kind sound like Cult
                                                    > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                                                    > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                                                    > that "He gives suggestions" and
                                                    > "seldom does he issue directives...
                                                    > True Free Will of an individual
                                                    > stands upon the Mahanta's
                                                    > guidance."
                                                    >
                                                    > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                                                    > as he speaks from experience:
                                                    > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                                                    > ingrained ideas about patterns
                                                    > against them. A subject thinks
                                                    > he has the quick mind and eyes
                                                    > to catch a Magician in an act,
                                                    > even while he is being unburdened
                                                    > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                                                    > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                                                    > played upon people by illusion."
                                                    >
                                                    > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                                                    > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                                                    > exercises," but write those snail-
                                                    > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                                                    > thinking and so I can use those
                                                    > stories for my next book.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > iam999freedom wrote:
                                                    > Hi Prometheus,
                                                    >
                                                    > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                                                    > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                                                    > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                                                    >
                                                    > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                                                    > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                                                    > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                                                    > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                                                    > different character than the other."
                                                    >
                                                    > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                                                    > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next morning
                                                    > on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                                                    >
                                                    > I still have yet to receive a response.
                                                    >
                                                    > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic Note
                                                    > that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                                                    >
                                                    > Thanks,
                                                    > I AM
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > prometheus_wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The December 2012
                                                    > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                                    > > in the Ask the Master
                                                    > > section are two interesting
                                                    > > questions and answers.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The first question has
                                                    > > to do with Stress and
                                                    > > how to overcome it.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                                    > > washy at best. He says
                                                    > > that stress is "very
                                                    > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                                    > > stress is a good teacher."
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Klemp goes on to say
                                                    > > that people increase
                                                    > > their tolerance to stress
                                                    > > by eating healthy, getting
                                                    > > enough sleep, and by
                                                    > > "Reducing our overuse
                                                    > > of electronic devices."
                                                    > >
                                                    > > In other words it seems
                                                    > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                                    > > roundabout way, to use
                                                    > > moderation. After all,
                                                    > > he's saying to reduce
                                                    > > "overuse."
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Then, again, how does
                                                    > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                                    > > not use their computer
                                                    > > 8 hours a day?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The next question involves
                                                    > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                                    > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                                    > > boy and two days later his
                                                    > > mother translated (died).
                                                    > > He indirectly asked if this
                                                    > > new baby was his mother.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                                    > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                                    > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                                    > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                                    > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                                    > > anything at all can happen...
                                                    > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                                    > > son, everything is in accord
                                                    > > with what is best for all around."
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Prometheus
                                                    >
                                                  • etznab18
                                                    Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                                      Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a number of things. Another study suggested that "even one's political leanings are largely shaped by genes (not by 'free will,' or choice.)"

                                                      OK? Got the picture now? Combine that with the first paragraph of Harold's article and with the other paragraphs that mentioned free will, illusion and influence of genes.

                                                      My impression from the article was that genes were considered to have great influence upon people's behaviors, even moreso than upbringing, or life's experiences.

                                                      Now, I've seen studies where twins grow up in different environments where one gets cancer and the other doesn't. Also, I think there is a lot of "dark space" about the physiology of genes (just like there is a lot of "dark space" in the universe ... the majority, some think.) Genes, IMO, don't matter so much as whether the genes are "turned on" or not. There are lots and lots of genes (or DNA) that remain inactive I think, what they call junk DNA, and my guess is that life experiences and upbringing DO have an effect on shaping individual character. Even with identical twins.

                                                      The idea that genes have such a great influence on behavior is just relative to any number of other things, IMO.

                                                      I had to wonder, was Harold speaking about Eugenics? or something similar?

                                                      Consider the following:

                                                      Doubts on genetic mutation triggered by inheritance

                                                      "The first major challenge to conventional eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was made in 1915 by Thomas Hunt Morgan, who demonstrated the event of genetic mutation occurring outside of inheritance involving the discovery of the hatching of a fruit fly with white eyes from a family and ancestry of the red-eyed Drosophila melanogaster species of fruit fly.[36] Morgan claimed that this demonstrated that major genetic changes occurred outside of inheritance and that the concept of eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was, to some extent, not completely scientifically accurate.[36]

                                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Doubts_on_genetic_mutation_triggered_by_inheritance

                                                      "A gene is a molecular unit of heredity of a living organism. It is a name given to some stretches of DNA and RNA that code for a polypeptide or for an RNA chain that has a function in the organism. [... .]"

                                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes#Changing_concept

                                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hello I AM and All,
                                                      > Actually Klemp did cite some
                                                      > studies and I Googled it myself
                                                      > and saw that there is proof that
                                                      > identical twins share similarities.
                                                      > The mirrored behaviors could
                                                      > be genetical with brain frequencies
                                                      > and brain function being the
                                                      > same due to a quantum mechanical
                                                      > influence. I threw that last one
                                                      > in on my own, but who knows?
                                                      >
                                                      > I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
                                                      > use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
                                                      > Twin Soul concept. But, he did
                                                      > use the Lords of Karma ruse
                                                      > which, BTW, is not solely owned
                                                      > by Eckankar.
                                                      >
                                                      > Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
                                                      > to get new members by promising
                                                      > "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
                                                      > Liberation" but then he switches
                                                      > it up and demands (suggests)
                                                      > Mahanta Codependency and Sales
                                                      > Team participation in order to,
                                                      > possibly, get promoted and receive
                                                      > "Spiritual Rewards."
                                                      >
                                                      > It is funny that Klemp claims to
                                                      > take "Free Will" away from Souls
                                                      > who join Eckankar and follow him.
                                                      > Does this mean that those Souls
                                                      > who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
                                                      > have Free Will? It sounds like it!
                                                      >
                                                      > Prometheus
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > iam999freedom wrote:
                                                      > Hi Prometheus,
                                                      > Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
                                                      > improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same type
                                                      > of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
                                                      > perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
                                                      > do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
                                                      > the environment.
                                                      >
                                                      > As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
                                                      > each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
                                                      > merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
                                                      >
                                                      > According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
                                                      > right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
                                                      > listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
                                                      >
                                                      > What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
                                                      > Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and love
                                                      > etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
                                                      > prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
                                                      >
                                                      > I AM
                                                      >
                                                      > prometheus_973" wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Hello I Am,
                                                      > > Okay, let me give it
                                                      > > a shot and use some
                                                      > > excerpts etc.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > HK's talking about
                                                      > > psychological studies
                                                      > > using identical twins
                                                      > > (not conjoined) that
                                                      > > were separated soon
                                                      > > after birth. They grew
                                                      > > up elsewhere and had
                                                      > > different influences
                                                      > > but dressed the same
                                                      > > and had the same type
                                                      > > of dog and gave the
                                                      > > dog the same name etc.,
                                                      > > etc.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Thus, it seems that
                                                      > > Free Will relies upon
                                                      > > genetics (nature) more
                                                      > > than it does upon nurture,
                                                      > > although, HK says that
                                                      > > Yogi Berra stated that
                                                      > > "in theory, practice doesn't
                                                      > > matter; in practice, it does."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > BTW- According to Klemp
                                                      > > "The Lords of Karma have
                                                      > > selected a body with the
                                                      > > appropriate genes for each
                                                      > > student."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > However, HK has somewhat
                                                      > > contradicted what is in CH.
                                                      > > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
                                                      > > that "the spiritual workers
                                                      > > created man and placed
                                                      > > within him a living imperishable
                                                      > > Spirit, called Soul."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > There is no other mention
                                                      > > of these "spiritual workers."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Anywho-
                                                      > >
                                                      > > HK is so clever the way
                                                      > > he'll twist a quote to add
                                                      > > even more confusion to
                                                      > > his message of absolute
                                                      > > servitude and obedience.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I counted HK using "But"
                                                      > > four times. In an old H.I.
                                                      > > Letter he said never to
                                                      > > use "But" with one another
                                                      > > and that it was a nail in
                                                      > > the coffin of invention and
                                                      > > took away from what was
                                                      > > previously said.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > HK:
                                                      > > "BUT they dug in their heels
                                                      > > at the finding that such twins'
                                                      > > IQs were nearly as similar as
                                                      > > their heights."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
                                                      > > set. A kind owner may let it out
                                                      > > into the room on occasion. BUT
                                                      > > it is still in a house."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > "Researchers, too, can advance
                                                      > > only to a fixed point in their studies
                                                      > > of what elements make up a whole
                                                      > > individual. BUT they do not have
                                                      > > a magical key to the spiritual self.
                                                      > > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Funny that Klemp states that he
                                                      > > holds "a magical key" to control
                                                      > > others like a Black Magician would.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > "The Mahanta alone can help people
                                                      > > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
                                                      > > must have the right kind and amount
                                                      > > of daily experiences."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
                                                      > > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
                                                      > > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
                                                      > > the "right kind and amount of daily
                                                      > > experiences."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
                                                      > > doesn't like science and psychologists
                                                      > > since getting locked up in an asylum
                                                      > > and having to "play-the-game" to
                                                      > > be released early.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > HK states that "Real free will rests
                                                      > > entirely on trusting the Master's
                                                      > > prompts [signs?] as to which of
                                                      > > many choices to make in all things
                                                      > > human and divine."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > In other words do as I say not
                                                      > > as I do and there is no such
                                                      > > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
                                                      > > Does that kind sound like Cult
                                                      > > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
                                                      > > and scarier! HK goes on to say
                                                      > > that "He gives suggestions" and
                                                      > > "seldom does he issue directives...
                                                      > > True Free Will of an individual
                                                      > > stands upon the Mahanta's
                                                      > > guidance."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
                                                      > > as he speaks from experience:
                                                      > > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
                                                      > > ingrained ideas about patterns
                                                      > > against them. A subject thinks
                                                      > > he has the quick mind and eyes
                                                      > > to catch a Magician in an act,
                                                      > > even while he is being unburdened
                                                      > > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
                                                      > > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
                                                      > > played upon people by illusion."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > "Again, keep in-touch with the
                                                      > > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
                                                      > > exercises," but write those snail-
                                                      > > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
                                                      > > thinking and so I can use those
                                                      > > stories for my next book.
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > iam999freedom wrote:
                                                      > > Hi Prometheus,
                                                      > >
                                                      > > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
                                                      > > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
                                                      > > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                                                      > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                                                      > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                                                      > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                                                      > > different character than the other."
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
                                                      > > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
                                                      > morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I still have yet to receive a response.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
                                                      > Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Thanks,
                                                      > > I AM
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > prometheus_wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > The December 2012
                                                      > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                                      > > > in the Ask the Master
                                                      > > > section are two interesting
                                                      > > > questions and answers.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > The first question has
                                                      > > > to do with Stress and
                                                      > > > how to overcome it.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                                      > > > washy at best. He says
                                                      > > > that stress is "very
                                                      > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                                      > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                                      > > > that people increase
                                                      > > > their tolerance to stress
                                                      > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                                      > > > enough sleep, and by
                                                      > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                                      > > > of electronic devices."
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > In other words it seems
                                                      > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                                      > > > roundabout way, to use
                                                      > > > moderation. After all,
                                                      > > > he's saying to reduce
                                                      > > > "overuse."
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Then, again, how does
                                                      > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                                      > > > not use their computer
                                                      > > > 8 hours a day?
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > The next question involves
                                                      > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                                      > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                                      > > > boy and two days later his
                                                      > > > mother translated (died).
                                                      > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                                      > > > new baby was his mother.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                                      > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                                      > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                                      > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                                      > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                                      > > > anything at all can happen...
                                                      > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                                      > > > son, everything is in accord
                                                      > > > with what is best for all around."
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Prometheus
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • Non
                                                      Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jan 12, 2013
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                                                        Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated as far as religion may be growing. :)

                                                        Non ;)

                                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may. In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them, otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as even a twisted moral imperative.
                                                        >
                                                        > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem like a small intervention.
                                                        >
                                                        > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant, and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                                        >
                                                        > Non ;)
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Hi I am,
                                                        > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.  So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > From: iam999freedom
                                                        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                                        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >  
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I AM
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes, there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when people are hurt,
                                                        > > there are always others
                                                        > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
                                                        > > busy hiding their
                                                        > > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
                                                        > > other leaders of
                                                        > > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > From: prometheus_973
                                                        > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
                                                        > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >  
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                        > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                        > > > will ever become like, God,
                                                        > > > our imagined or possible
                                                        > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                        > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > But, it could be that the
                                                        > > > universe(s) just happened
                                                        > > > and that the remnants of
                                                        > > > other life forms were spread
                                                        > > > to this planet, and others,
                                                        > > > via space rubble... from
                                                        > > > destroyed civilizations
                                                        > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                        > > > intentional seeding by an
                                                        > > > advanced race... which was,
                                                        > > > itself, seeded by another
                                                        > > > advanced race etc.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                        > > > experiences we have
                                                        > > > are the result of
                                                        > > > interaction with the
                                                        > > > quantum mechanical
                                                        > > > field?
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                        > > > that what really matters
                                                        > > > are relationships. It's our
                                                        > > > relationships with others,
                                                        > > > even strangers, that matter
                                                        > > > most. This is how we really
                                                        > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                                        > > > relationships are valuable.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Klemp, and others like
                                                        > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                        > > > have arrested development;
                                                        > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                        > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                                        > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                                        > > > or caring about others (are
                                                        > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                                        > > > impede social progress and
                                                        > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                                        > > > us for their own personal
                                                        > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                                        > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                        > > > created can make life interesting
                                                        > > > and a challenge, although,
                                                        > > > it can/will also be physically
                                                        > > > and emotionally painful.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > But, having a regular life
                                                        > > > without additional commitments
                                                        > > > and involvements can also
                                                        > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                                        > > > and insights. We are never
                                                        > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                        > > > not sure how peace of any
                                                        > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                        > > > will ever happen in a world
                                                        > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > One must care about everyone
                                                        > > > and have caring relationships
                                                        > > > with people in order for humankind
                                                        > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                        > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                        > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                                        > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                        > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                        > > > too.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > How can one really "care" about
                                                        > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                        > > > except to keep them away from
                                                        > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                        > > > people.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > When one thinks about it the
                                                        > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                                        > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                        > > > seem to be more pathological
                                                        > > > than the introverts don't you
                                                        > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                        > > > to force us introverts to become
                                                        > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                        > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                                        > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                        > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                        > > > is more intimidating.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                        > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                                        > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                        > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                                        > > > lives because of the differences
                                                        > > > we see in one another. This is
                                                        > > > why there are so many different
                                                        > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                        > > > and wrong.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                        > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                        > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                        > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                        > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                        > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                        > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > There are major flaws with all
                                                        > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                                        > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                        > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                        > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                        > > > validation is that these various
                                                        > > > people in history/myth that the
                                                        > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                        > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                                        > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                        > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                        > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                        > > > have given them credibility, because
                                                        > > > it is believed and taught that
                                                        > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                                        > > > have been the source for their
                                                        > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                        > > > today, who are not even followers
                                                        > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                        > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                        > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                        > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                        > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                                        > > > Many of these people inspired
                                                        > > > others by never giving up in time
                                                        > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                        > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                                        > > > Even those who did give up and
                                                        > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                        > > > maintained their faith and this
                                                        > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                        > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                        > > > for religions there are an awful
                                                        > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                        > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Prometheus
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                        > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                        > > > with unconditional love for the
                                                        > > > master and you get a submissive
                                                        > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                                        > > > Buyer beware!
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                        > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                        > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                        > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                        > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                        > > > Are we to become more than
                                                        > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                        > > > Maybe there is something
                                                        > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                        > > > analogy."
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
                                                        > > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
                                                        > > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
                                                        > > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
                                                        > > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
                                                        > > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
                                                        > > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
                                                        > > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
                                                        > > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
                                                        > > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
                                                        > > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
                                                        > > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
                                                        > > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
                                                        > > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
                                                        > > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
                                                        > > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
                                                        > > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
                                                        > > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
                                                        > > > that it would ever be necessary.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > I AM
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > prometheus wrote:
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Hello Non and All,
                                                        > > > > Thanks for the insightful
                                                        > > > > summary. I was exploring
                                                        > > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
                                                        > > > > charismatic Christian churches
                                                        > > > > and saw a reference to a
                                                        > > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > This person is mentioned
                                                        > > > > not by Jesus but by one of
                                                        > > > > his apostles in order to inspire
                                                        > > > > Faith.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Even when God seems to
                                                        > > > > turn his back and: causes
                                                        > > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
                                                        > > > > lost; cities attacked and
                                                        > > > > overrun by your enemies;
                                                        > > > > people brutalized, tortured
                                                        > > > > and killed, one is to have
                                                        > > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
                                                        > > > > reward for keeping this
                                                        > > > > faith. God's ego needs
                                                        > > > > you to believe in him
                                                        > > > > regardless of what pain
                                                        > > > > he allows to befall you.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > One needs to project
                                                        > > > > a sense of hope in order
                                                        > > > > to better endure life, as
                                                        > > > > it is, no matter how bad.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > And, it's easier to face these
                                                        > > > > challenges when you believe
                                                        > > > > that God is on your side and
                                                        > > > > not that of your oppressor.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > However, does God really
                                                        > > > > take sides? It seems that God
                                                        > > > > is/was created in man's image.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                        > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                        > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                        > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                        > > > > Are we to become more than
                                                        > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                        > > > > Maybe there is something
                                                        > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                        > > > > analogy.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
                                                        > > > > has the belief that you (and your
                                                        > > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
                                                        > > > > deserved the punishments as
                                                        > > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
                                                        > > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
                                                        > > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
                                                        > > > > most religions see everyday
                                                        > > > > living and hardships as a test
                                                        > > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
                                                        > > > > to donate money to support
                                                        > > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
                                                        > > > > says and promises the same
                                                        > > > > or similar things in the imagined
                                                        > > > > hereafter.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Plus, each religion has always
                                                        > > > > blamed the non-believers for
                                                        > > > > the sins that they suffer under
                                                        > > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
                                                        > > > > and Klemp is more like these
                                                        > > > > preachers than EKists could ever
                                                        > > > > admit.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Well, got to go now....
                                                        > > > > I just had some thoughts
                                                        > > > > to share.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Prometheus
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > "Non" wrote:
                                                        > > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
                                                        > > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
                                                        > > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
                                                        > > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
                                                        > > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
                                                        > > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
                                                        > > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
                                                        > > > answers to ask the master etc.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
                                                        > > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
                                                        > > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
                                                        > > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
                                                        > > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
                                                        > > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
                                                        > > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
                                                        > > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
                                                        > > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
                                                        > > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
                                                        > > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
                                                        > > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
                                                        > > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
                                                        > > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Non ;)
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > prometheus wrote:
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Hello Janice,
                                                        > > > > Yes, one would think that
                                                        > > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
                                                        > > > > would, at least, attempt
                                                        > > > > to live up to his PR, but
                                                        > > > > that's not the case with
                                                        > > > > Klemp. Why put himself
                                                        > > > > out there by demonstrating
                                                        > > > > his powers? It's not like
                                                        > > > > he announced to the
                                                        > > > > whole world that he was....
                                                        > > > > oh wait, he did!
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > That was a long time ago
                                                        > > > > and he never did make
                                                        > > > > any predictions as most
                                                        > > > > prophets do. Even Twit
                                                        > > > > made some predictions.
                                                        > > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
                                                        > > > > haven't noticed and don't
                                                        > > > > mine and that's why he
                                                        > > > > doesn't feel any pressure
                                                        > > > > to preform his responsibilities
                                                        > > > > as a real prophet.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Instead, Harold is very
                                                        > > > > cautious of being too
                                                        > > > > direct and understood.
                                                        > > > > He'd rather have EKists
                                                        > > > > fill-in the blanks and
                                                        > > > > imagine what they want,
                                                        > > > > need and expect until
                                                        > > > > they go too far and have
                                                        > > > > to have a behaviour
                                                        > > > > adjustment by their RESA.
                                                        > > > > That's why Klemp usually
                                                        > > > > gives a very one dimensional
                                                        > > > > perspective when he tells
                                                        > > > > a story.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
                                                        > > > > why put too much
                                                        > > > > effort into it! And, he
                                                        > > > > figures that all he needs
                                                        > > > > to do is the KISS thing
                                                        > > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
                                                        > > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
                                                        > > > > will substitute Soul for
                                                        > > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > It's really quite amazing
                                                        > > > > how simple Klemp's
                                                        > > > > redundant message is.
                                                        > > > > If EKists would just compare
                                                        > > > > Klemp's simple minded
                                                        > > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
                                                        > > > > leaders one would have
                                                        > > > > to wonder what they see
                                                        > > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
                                                        > > > > but they just laugh at his
                                                        > > > > quirkiness because he's
                                                        > > > > operating on so many
                                                        > > > > high planes of consciousness
                                                        > > > > simultaneously. LOL!
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
                                                        > > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
                                                        > > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
                                                        > > > > isn't even in the same ball
                                                        > > > > park with the current Dali
                                                        > > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
                                                        > > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
                                                        > > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
                                                        > > > > religion while Eckankar
                                                        > > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
                                                        > > > > But, EKists need to compare
                                                        > > > > the two leaders and how
                                                        > > > > they present themselves
                                                        > > > > and what they have to say.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Will ECKists make the
                                                        > > > > comparison? No, of course
                                                        > > > > not! They won't even allow
                                                        > > > > the door to be opened a
                                                        > > > > crack because some light
                                                        > > > > might get in and show
                                                        > > > > them the Truth. They can't
                                                        > > > > handle the Truth and
                                                        > > > > would rather remain ignorant.
                                                        > > > > It's much easier, besides,
                                                        > > > > what would they replace
                                                        > > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
                                                        > > > > responsibility to think for
                                                        > > > > oneself and exercise free
                                                        > > > > will. And, it would make
                                                        > > > > life too lonely to lose all
                                                        > > > > of those EK friends.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Prometheus
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                        > > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
                                                        > > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
                                                        > > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
                                                        > > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
                                                        > > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
                                                        > > > > charlatan to me.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Prometheus wrote:
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > The December 2012
                                                        > > > > Eckankar Mystic World
                                                        > > > > in the Ask the Master
                                                        > > > > section are two interesting
                                                        > > > > questions and answers.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > The first question has
                                                        > > > > to do with Stress and
                                                        > > > > how to overcome it.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > HK's answer is wishy-
                                                        > > > > washy at best. He says
                                                        > > > > that stress is "very
                                                        > > > > uncomfortable... Yet
                                                        > > > > stress is a good teacher."
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Klemp goes on to say
                                                        > > > > that people can increase
                                                        > > > > their tolerance to stress
                                                        > > > > by eating healthy, getting
                                                        > > > > enough sleep, and by
                                                        > > > > "Reducing our overuse
                                                        > > > > of electronic devices."
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > In other words it seems
                                                        > > > > Klemp is saying, in a
                                                        > > > > roundabout way, to use
                                                        > > > > moderation. After all,
                                                        > > > > he's saying to reduce
                                                        > > > > "overuse."
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Then, again, how does
                                                        > > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
                                                        > > > > not use their computer
                                                        > > > > 8 hours a day?
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > The next question involves
                                                        > > > > reincarnation. This guy's
                                                        > > > > wife gave birth to a baby
                                                        > > > > boy and two days later his
                                                        > > > > mother translated (died).
                                                        > > > > He indirectly asked if this
                                                        > > > > new baby was his mother.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Instead of giving this EKist
                                                        > > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
                                                        > > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
                                                        > > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
                                                        > > > > When it comes to rebirth,
                                                        > > > > anything at all can happen...
                                                        > > > > Whichever Soul is now your
                                                        > > > > son, everything is in accord
                                                        > > > > with what is best for all around."
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Prometheus
                                                        > > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                      • prometheus_973
                                                        Hello Non and All, Actually, having good interactive relationships with other people isn t necessarily about making new friends nor having the same religious,
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
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                                                          Hello Non and All,
                                                          Actually, having good
                                                          interactive relationships
                                                          with other people isn't
                                                          necessarily about making
                                                          new friends nor having
                                                          the same religious, political,
                                                          and lifestyle beliefs.
                                                          Trying to get others
                                                          to follow or accept our
                                                          beliefs isn't the goal.

                                                          It's more about being
                                                          "friendly" to/with/for
                                                          others and, thus, to
                                                          ourselves. Usually, being
                                                          friendly and promoting
                                                          "friendship" (versus making
                                                          friends) isn't that hard
                                                          to accomplish. And, if
                                                          it is, we need to make
                                                          more of an effort and
                                                          figure out what it is that's
                                                          making this difficult.

                                                          Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                                          some small talk, and recognizing
                                                          the other person by looking
                                                          directly at them goes a
                                                          long way.

                                                          We can have a friendship
                                                          (i.e. relationship) with a
                                                          clerk whose full name we
                                                          might not ever know. It's
                                                          fun to simply, and naturally,
                                                          smile and be friendly to
                                                          strangers and acquaintances
                                                          without expecting anything
                                                          else. It takes the pressure
                                                          off everyone when we keep
                                                          it light. This lightness of
                                                          Being will help to improve
                                                          our lives and that of others.

                                                          It's true that we will never
                                                          be able to be friendly with
                                                          some people. And, we won't
                                                          always be friends with those
                                                          people we know now. Some
                                                          people don't deserve our
                                                          efforts and will never deserve
                                                          it. They are enemies to what
                                                          we believe in.

                                                          And, not all relationships
                                                          work out nor need to be
                                                          continued for the sake of
                                                          all those involved. Sometimes
                                                          people just have to let go
                                                          and move on even with
                                                          family members. But, these
                                                          are usually relationships
                                                          that have become complicated
                                                          via various factors and are
                                                          usually more one-sided
                                                          due to a lack of communication,
                                                          closed mindedness and
                                                          hurt feelings.

                                                          Our positive relationships
                                                          with nature, to animals,
                                                          and to other people are
                                                          connections that make our
                                                          lives worth living.


                                                          Prometheus





                                                          "Non" wrote:
                                                          Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                                          to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                                          done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                                          friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                                          challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                                          as far as religion may be growing. :)

                                                          Non ;)

                                                          "Non" wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                                          teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                                          lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                                          possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                                          inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                                          act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                                          In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                                          otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                                          even a twisted moral imperative.
                                                          >
                                                          > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                                          direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                                          point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                                          like a small intervention.
                                                          >
                                                          > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                                          situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                                          and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                                          outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                                          at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                                          and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                                          heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                                          >
                                                          > Non ;)
                                                          >
                                                          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          Hi I am,
                                                          It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                                          we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                                          So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                                          possible and let them go on their way.
                                                          Thanks for your comments.
                                                          > >
                                                          I AM wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                                          regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                                          meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                                          sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                                          point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > I AM
                                                          > >
                                                          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                          > > >
                                                          Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                                          it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                                          there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                                          talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                                          happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                                          something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                                          people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                                          people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                                          came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                                          appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                                          is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                                          about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                                          good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                                          > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                                          doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                                          still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                                          willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                                          motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                                          of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                                          everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                                          by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                                          strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                                          broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                                          takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                                          the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                                          After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                                          > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                                          hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                                          admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                                          sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                                          knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                                          have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                                          even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                                          heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                                          rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                                          Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                                          others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                                          pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                                          that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                                          use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                                          tonight.
                                                          > > >

                                                          prometheus wrote:
                                                          > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                          > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                          > > > will ever become like, God,
                                                          > > > our imagined or possible
                                                          > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                          > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > But, it could be that the
                                                          > > > universe(s) just happened
                                                          > > > and that the remnants of
                                                          > > > other life forms were spread
                                                          > > > to this planet, and others,
                                                          > > > via space rubble... from
                                                          > > > destroyed civilizations
                                                          > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                          > > > intentional seeding by an
                                                          > > > advanced race... which was,
                                                          > > > itself, seeded by another
                                                          > > > advanced race etc.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                          > > > experiences we have
                                                          > > > are the result of
                                                          > > > interaction with the
                                                          > > > quantum mechanical
                                                          > > > field?
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                          > > > that what really matters
                                                          > > > are relationships. It's our
                                                          > > > relationships with others,
                                                          > > > even strangers, that matter
                                                          > > > most. This is how we really
                                                          > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                                          > > > relationships are valuable.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Klemp, and others like
                                                          > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                          > > > have arrested development;
                                                          > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                          > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                                          > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                                          > > > or caring about others (are
                                                          > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                                          > > > impede social progress and
                                                          > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                                          > > > us for their own personal
                                                          > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                                          > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                          > > > created can make life interesting
                                                          > > > and a challenge, although,
                                                          > > > it can/will also be physically
                                                          > > > and emotionally painful.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > But, having a regular life
                                                          > > > without additional commitments
                                                          > > > and involvements can also
                                                          > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                                          > > > and insights. We are never
                                                          > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                          > > > not sure how peace of any
                                                          > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                          > > > will ever happen in a world
                                                          > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > One must care about everyone
                                                          > > > and have caring relationships
                                                          > > > with people in order for humankind
                                                          > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                          > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                          > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                                          > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                          > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                          > > > too.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > How can one really "care" about
                                                          > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                          > > > except to keep them away from
                                                          > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                          > > > people.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > When one thinks about it the
                                                          > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                                          > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                          > > > seem to be more pathological
                                                          > > > than the introverts don't you
                                                          > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                          > > > to force us introverts to become
                                                          > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                          > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                                          > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                          > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                          > > > is more intimidating.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                          > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                                          > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                          > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                                          > > > lives because of the differences
                                                          > > > we see in one another. This is
                                                          > > > why there are so many different
                                                          > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                          > > > and wrong.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                          > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                          > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                          > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                          > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                          > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                          > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > There are major flaws with all
                                                          > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                                          > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                          > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                          > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                          > > > validation is that these various
                                                          > > > people in history/myth that the
                                                          > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                          > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                                          > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                          > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                          > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                          > > > have given them credibility, because
                                                          > > > it is believed and taught that
                                                          > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                                          > > > have been the source for their
                                                          > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                          > > > today, who are not even followers
                                                          > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                          > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                          > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                          > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                          > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                                          > > > Many of these people inspired
                                                          > > > others by never giving up in time
                                                          > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                          > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                                          > > > Even those who did give up and
                                                          > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                          > > > maintained their faith and this
                                                          > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                          > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                          > > > for religions there are an awful
                                                          > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                          > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Prometheus
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                          > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                          > > > with unconditional love for the
                                                          > > > master and you get a submissive
                                                          > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                                          > > > Buyer beware!
                                                          > > >
                                                          > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                          > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                          > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                          > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                          > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                          > > > Are we to become more than
                                                          > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                          > > > Maybe there is something
                                                          > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                          > > > analogy."
                                                        • Non
                                                          Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jan 13, 2013
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
                                                            probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
                                                            other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
                                                            doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.

                                                            Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
                                                            a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
                                                            Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
                                                            strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
                                                            (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
                                                            highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
                                                            your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.

                                                            Non ;)

                                                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Hello Non and All,
                                                            > Actually, having good
                                                            > interactive relationships
                                                            > with other people isn't
                                                            > necessarily about making
                                                            > new friends nor having
                                                            > the same religious, political,
                                                            > and lifestyle beliefs.
                                                            > Trying to get others
                                                            > to follow or accept our
                                                            > beliefs isn't the goal.
                                                            >
                                                            > It's more about being
                                                            > "friendly" to/with/for
                                                            > others and, thus, to
                                                            > ourselves. Usually, being
                                                            > friendly and promoting
                                                            > "friendship" (versus making
                                                            > friends) isn't that hard
                                                            > to accomplish. And, if
                                                            > it is, we need to make
                                                            > more of an effort and
                                                            > figure out what it is that's
                                                            > making this difficult.
                                                            >
                                                            > Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                                            > some small talk, and recognizing
                                                            > the other person by looking
                                                            > directly at them goes a
                                                            > long way.
                                                            >
                                                            > We can have a friendship
                                                            > (i.e. relationship) with a
                                                            > clerk whose full name we
                                                            > might not ever know. It's
                                                            > fun to simply, and naturally,
                                                            > smile and be friendly to
                                                            > strangers and acquaintances
                                                            > without expecting anything
                                                            > else. It takes the pressure
                                                            > off everyone when we keep
                                                            > it light. This lightness of
                                                            > Being will help to improve
                                                            > our lives and that of others.
                                                            >
                                                            > It's true that we will never
                                                            > be able to be friendly with
                                                            > some people. And, we won't
                                                            > always be friends with those
                                                            > people we know now. Some
                                                            > people don't deserve our
                                                            > efforts and will never deserve
                                                            > it. They are enemies to what
                                                            > we believe in.
                                                            >
                                                            > And, not all relationships
                                                            > work out nor need to be
                                                            > continued for the sake of
                                                            > all those involved. Sometimes
                                                            > people just have to let go
                                                            > and move on even with
                                                            > family members. But, these
                                                            > are usually relationships
                                                            > that have become complicated
                                                            > via various factors and are
                                                            > usually more one-sided
                                                            > due to a lack of communication,
                                                            > closed mindedness and
                                                            > hurt feelings.
                                                            >
                                                            > Our positive relationships
                                                            > with nature, to animals,
                                                            > and to other people are
                                                            > connections that make our
                                                            > lives worth living.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Prometheus
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > "Non" wrote:
                                                            > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                                            > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                                            > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                                            > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                                            > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                                            > as far as religion may be growing. :)
                                                            >
                                                            > Non ;)
                                                            >
                                                            > "Non" wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                                            > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                                            > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                                            > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                                            > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                                            > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                                            > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                                            > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                                            > even a twisted moral imperative.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                                            > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                                            > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                                            > like a small intervention.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                                            > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                                            > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                                            > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                                            > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                                            > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                                            > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Non ;)
                                                            > >
                                                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                            > > >
                                                            > Hi I am,
                                                            > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                                            > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                                            > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                                            > possible and let them go on their way.
                                                            > Thanks for your comments.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > I AM wrote:
                                                            > > >
                                                            > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                                            > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                                            > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                                            > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                                            > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > I AM
                                                            > > >
                                                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                                            > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                                            > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                                            > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                                            > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                                            > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                                            > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                                            > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                                            > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                                            > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                                            > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                                            > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                                            > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                                            > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                                            > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                                            > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                                            > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                                            > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                                            > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                                            > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                                            > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                                            > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                                            > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                                            > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                                            > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                                            > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                                            > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                                            > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                                            > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                                            > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                                            > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                                            > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                                            > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                                            > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                                            > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                                            > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                                            > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                                            > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                                            > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                                            > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                                            > tonight.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            >
                                                            > prometheus wrote:
                                                            > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                            > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                            > > > > will ever become like, God,
                                                            > > > > our imagined or possible
                                                            > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                            > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > But, it could be that the
                                                            > > > > universe(s) just happened
                                                            > > > > and that the remnants of
                                                            > > > > other life forms were spread
                                                            > > > > to this planet, and others,
                                                            > > > > via space rubble... from
                                                            > > > > destroyed civilizations
                                                            > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                            > > > > intentional seeding by an
                                                            > > > > advanced race... which was,
                                                            > > > > itself, seeded by another
                                                            > > > > advanced race etc.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                            > > > > experiences we have
                                                            > > > > are the result of
                                                            > > > > interaction with the
                                                            > > > > quantum mechanical
                                                            > > > > field?
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                            > > > > that what really matters
                                                            > > > > are relationships. It's our
                                                            > > > > relationships with others,
                                                            > > > > even strangers, that matter
                                                            > > > > most. This is how we really
                                                            > > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                                            > > > > relationships are valuable.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Klemp, and others like
                                                            > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                            > > > > have arrested development;
                                                            > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                            > > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                                            > > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                                            > > > > or caring about others (are
                                                            > > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                                            > > > > impede social progress and
                                                            > > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                                            > > > > us for their own personal
                                                            > > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                                            > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                            > > > > created can make life interesting
                                                            > > > > and a challenge, although,
                                                            > > > > it can/will also be physically
                                                            > > > > and emotionally painful.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > But, having a regular life
                                                            > > > > without additional commitments
                                                            > > > > and involvements can also
                                                            > > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                                            > > > > and insights. We are never
                                                            > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                            > > > > not sure how peace of any
                                                            > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                            > > > > will ever happen in a world
                                                            > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > One must care about everyone
                                                            > > > > and have caring relationships
                                                            > > > > with people in order for humankind
                                                            > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                            > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                            > > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                                            > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                            > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                            > > > > too.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > How can one really "care" about
                                                            > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                            > > > > except to keep them away from
                                                            > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                            > > > > people.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > When one thinks about it the
                                                            > > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                                            > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                            > > > > seem to be more pathological
                                                            > > > > than the introverts don't you
                                                            > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                            > > > > to force us introverts to become
                                                            > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                            > > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                                            > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                            > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                            > > > > is more intimidating.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                            > > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                                            > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                            > > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                                            > > > > lives because of the differences
                                                            > > > > we see in one another. This is
                                                            > > > > why there are so many different
                                                            > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                            > > > > and wrong.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                            > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                            > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                            > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                            > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                            > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                            > > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > There are major flaws with all
                                                            > > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                                            > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                            > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                            > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                            > > > > validation is that these various
                                                            > > > > people in history/myth that the
                                                            > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                            > > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                                            > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                            > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                            > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                            > > > > have given them credibility, because
                                                            > > > > it is believed and taught that
                                                            > > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                                            > > > > have been the source for their
                                                            > > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                            > > > > today, who are not even followers
                                                            > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                            > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                            > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                            > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                            > > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                                            > > > > Many of these people inspired
                                                            > > > > others by never giving up in time
                                                            > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                            > > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                                            > > > > Even those who did give up and
                                                            > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                            > > > > maintained their faith and this
                                                            > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                            > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                            > > > > for religions there are an awful
                                                            > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                            > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Prometheus
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                            > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                            > > > > with unconditional love for the
                                                            > > > > master and you get a submissive
                                                            > > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                                            > > > > Buyer beware!
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                            > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                            > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                            > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                            > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                            > > > > Are we to become more than
                                                            > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                            > > > > Maybe there is something
                                                            > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                            > > > > analogy."
                                                            >
                                                          • prometheus_973
                                                            Really! This is a valid spiritual technique that, unlike those HK hands out and sells, actually works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jan 18, 2013
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Really! This is a valid spiritual
                                                              technique that, unlike those
                                                              HK hands out and sells, actually
                                                              works:

                                                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo

                                                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
                                                              > probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and to each
                                                              > other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
                                                              > doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the continued effort.
                                                              >
                                                              > Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
                                                              > a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
                                                              > Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
                                                              > strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
                                                              > (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
                                                              > highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
                                                              > your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.
                                                              >
                                                              > Non ;)
                                                              >
                                                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Hello Non and All,
                                                              > > Actually, having good
                                                              > > interactive relationships
                                                              > > with other people isn't
                                                              > > necessarily about making
                                                              > > new friends nor having
                                                              > > the same religious, political,
                                                              > > and lifestyle beliefs.
                                                              > > Trying to get others
                                                              > > to follow or accept our
                                                              > > beliefs isn't the goal.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > It's more about being
                                                              > > "friendly" to/with/for
                                                              > > others and, thus, to
                                                              > > ourselves. Usually, being
                                                              > > friendly and promoting
                                                              > > "friendship" (versus making
                                                              > > friends) isn't that hard
                                                              > > to accomplish. And, if
                                                              > > it is, we need to make
                                                              > > more of an effort and
                                                              > > figure out what it is that's
                                                              > > making this difficult.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Smiles, politeness, sharing
                                                              > > some small talk, and recognizing
                                                              > > the other person by looking
                                                              > > directly at them goes a
                                                              > > long way.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > We can have a friendship
                                                              > > (i.e. relationship) with a
                                                              > > clerk whose full name we
                                                              > > might not ever know. It's
                                                              > > fun to simply, and naturally,
                                                              > > smile and be friendly to
                                                              > > strangers and acquaintances
                                                              > > without expecting anything
                                                              > > else. It takes the pressure
                                                              > > off everyone when we keep
                                                              > > it light. This lightness of
                                                              > > Being will help to improve
                                                              > > our lives and that of others.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > It's true that we will never
                                                              > > be able to be friendly with
                                                              > > some people. And, we won't
                                                              > > always be friends with those
                                                              > > people we know now. Some
                                                              > > people don't deserve our
                                                              > > efforts and will never deserve
                                                              > > it. They are enemies to what
                                                              > > we believe in.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > And, not all relationships
                                                              > > work out nor need to be
                                                              > > continued for the sake of
                                                              > > all those involved. Sometimes
                                                              > > people just have to let go
                                                              > > and move on even with
                                                              > > family members. But, these
                                                              > > are usually relationships
                                                              > > that have become complicated
                                                              > > via various factors and are
                                                              > > usually more one-sided
                                                              > > due to a lack of communication,
                                                              > > closed mindedness and
                                                              > > hurt feelings.
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Our positive relationships
                                                              > > with nature, to animals,
                                                              > > and to other people are
                                                              > > connections that make our
                                                              > > lives worth living.
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Prometheus
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > "Non" wrote:
                                                              > > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
                                                              > > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
                                                              > > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
                                                              > > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
                                                              > > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
                                                              > > as far as religion may be growing. :)
                                                              > >
                                                              > > Non ;)
                                                              > >
                                                              > > "Non" wrote:
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
                                                              > > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
                                                              > > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
                                                              > > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
                                                              > > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
                                                              > > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
                                                              > > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
                                                              > > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
                                                              > > even a twisted moral imperative.
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
                                                              > > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
                                                              > > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
                                                              > > like a small intervention.
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
                                                              > > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
                                                              > > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
                                                              > > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
                                                              > > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
                                                              > > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
                                                              > > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > > Non ;)
                                                              > > >
                                                              > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                              > > > >
                                                              > > Hi I am,
                                                              > > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
                                                              > > we deal with them. I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
                                                              > > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
                                                              > > possible and let them go on their way.
                                                              > > Thanks for your comments.
                                                              > > > >
                                                              > > I AM wrote:
                                                              > > > >
                                                              > > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
                                                              > > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
                                                              > > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
                                                              > > > >
                                                              > > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
                                                              > > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
                                                              > > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
                                                              > > > >
                                                              > > > > I AM
                                                              > > > >
                                                              > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much. The way I see
                                                              > > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
                                                              > > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things. We
                                                              > > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
                                                              > > happening that stunned us all. The senselessness of what happened is not
                                                              > > something a loving heart can even begin to understand. But there where
                                                              > > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children. There were
                                                              > > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could. That town
                                                              > > came together to support each other in an amazing way. Shared grief does
                                                              > > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual. So for me, I think there
                                                              > > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
                                                              > > about. We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
                                                              > > good. But when people are hurt, there are always others
                                                              > > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love. It
                                                              > > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
                                                              > > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
                                                              > > willingness to help others. Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
                                                              > > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths. Maybe part
                                                              > > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
                                                              > > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
                                                              > > by foreign threats. Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
                                                              > > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
                                                              > > broken inside. Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
                                                              > > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
                                                              > > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
                                                              > > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
                                                              > > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards. They don't live life, they
                                                              > > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves. You got to
                                                              > > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
                                                              > > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
                                                              > > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them. So I guess those sociopaths
                                                              > > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
                                                              > > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself. When you love, your
                                                              > > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it? I would
                                                              > > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
                                                              > > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
                                                              > > others haven't even begun the journey. Loving hearts can and will share the
                                                              > > pain. Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar. So what does
                                                              > > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar? I'd say those they
                                                              > > use are closer to perfection than they can even see. Bless all the loving eckist
                                                              > > tonight.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > >
                                                              > > prometheus wrote:
                                                              > > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
                                                              > > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
                                                              > > > > > will ever become like, God,
                                                              > > > > > our imagined or possible
                                                              > > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
                                                              > > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > But, it could be that the
                                                              > > > > > universe(s) just happened
                                                              > > > > > and that the remnants of
                                                              > > > > > other life forms were spread
                                                              > > > > > to this planet, and others,
                                                              > > > > > via space rubble... from
                                                              > > > > > destroyed civilizations
                                                              > > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
                                                              > > > > > intentional seeding by an
                                                              > > > > > advanced race... which was,
                                                              > > > > > itself, seeded by another
                                                              > > > > > advanced race etc.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
                                                              > > > > > experiences we have
                                                              > > > > > are the result of
                                                              > > > > > interaction with the
                                                              > > > > > quantum mechanical
                                                              > > > > > field?
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
                                                              > > > > > that what really matters
                                                              > > > > > are relationships. It's our
                                                              > > > > > relationships with others,
                                                              > > > > > even strangers, that matter
                                                              > > > > > most. This is how we really
                                                              > > > > > learn and grow. Loving
                                                              > > > > > relationships are valuable.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > Klemp, and others like
                                                              > > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
                                                              > > > > > have arrested development;
                                                              > > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
                                                              > > > > > and are even psychopathic.
                                                              > > > > > They are incapable of learning,
                                                              > > > > > or caring about others (are
                                                              > > > > > unloving) and attempt to
                                                              > > > > > impede social progress and
                                                              > > > > > justice. They use the rest of
                                                              > > > > > us for their own personal
                                                              > > > > > greed and selfish desires.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > Then, again, this strife and
                                                              > > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
                                                              > > > > > created can make life interesting
                                                              > > > > > and a challenge, although,
                                                              > > > > > it can/will also be physically
                                                              > > > > > and emotionally painful.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > But, having a regular life
                                                              > > > > > without additional commitments
                                                              > > > > > and involvements can also
                                                              > > > > > offer rewarding experiences
                                                              > > > > > and insights. We are never
                                                              > > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
                                                              > > > > > not sure how peace of any
                                                              > > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
                                                              > > > > > will ever happen in a world
                                                              > > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > One must care about everyone
                                                              > > > > > and have caring relationships
                                                              > > > > > with people in order for humankind
                                                              > > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
                                                              > > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
                                                              > > > > > I almost included animals, too,
                                                              > > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
                                                              > > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
                                                              > > > > > too.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > How can one really "care" about
                                                              > > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
                                                              > > > > > except to keep them away from
                                                              > > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
                                                              > > > > > people.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > When one thinks about it the
                                                              > > > > > definition of what's "normal"
                                                              > > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
                                                              > > > > > seem to be more pathological
                                                              > > > > > than the introverts don't you
                                                              > > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
                                                              > > > > > to force us introverts to become
                                                              > > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
                                                              > > > > > loves company I suppose or is
                                                              > > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
                                                              > > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
                                                              > > > > > is more intimidating.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
                                                              > > > > > to worship and viewed as being
                                                              > > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
                                                              > > > > > from "us" being involved in our
                                                              > > > > > lives because of the differences
                                                              > > > > > we see in one another. This is
                                                              > > > > > why there are so many different
                                                              > > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
                                                              > > > > > and wrong.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
                                                              > > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
                                                              > > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
                                                              > > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
                                                              > > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
                                                              > > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
                                                              > > > > > use God as our scape goat.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > There are major flaws with all
                                                              > > > > > of these religions and the so-called
                                                              > > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
                                                              > > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
                                                              > > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
                                                              > > > > > validation is that these various
                                                              > > > > > people in history/myth that the
                                                              > > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
                                                              > > > > > to have said or done some nice,
                                                              > > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
                                                              > > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
                                                              > > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
                                                              > > > > > have given them credibility, because
                                                              > > > > > it is believed and taught that
                                                              > > > > > only Divine Intercession could
                                                              > > > > > have been the source for their
                                                              > > > > > Divine Inspiration.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
                                                              > > > > > today, who are not even followers
                                                              > > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
                                                              > > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
                                                              > > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
                                                              > > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
                                                              > > > > > of these major and minor religions.
                                                              > > > > > Many of these people inspired
                                                              > > > > > others by never giving up in time
                                                              > > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
                                                              > > > > > there weren't many other choices.
                                                              > > > > > Even those who did give up and
                                                              > > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
                                                              > > > > > maintained their faith and this
                                                              > > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
                                                              > > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
                                                              > > > > > for religions there are an awful
                                                              > > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
                                                              > > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > Prometheus
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
                                                              > > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
                                                              > > > > > with unconditional love for the
                                                              > > > > > master and you get a submissive
                                                              > > > > > control pattern as your reward.
                                                              > > > > > Buyer beware!
                                                              > > > > >
                                                              > > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
                                                              > > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
                                                              > > > > > an experiment to see if we
                                                              > > > > > are all capable of evolving
                                                              > > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
                                                              > > > > > Are we to become more than
                                                              > > > > > merely a divine thought?
                                                              > > > > > Maybe there is something
                                                              > > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
                                                              > > > > > analogy."
                                                              > >
                                                              >
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