Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

Expand Messages
  • Non
    Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God s attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then being horribly punished for their insolence.

      I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

      Non ;)

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      > It's all interesting mental
      > gymnastics and circular
      > thinking fueled by myth.
      > When reading about lila I
      > thought of Lillith and how
      > God kept screwing up in
      > order to please Adam.
      >
      > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
      > >
      > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
      > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
      > >
      > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
      > >
      > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
      > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
      > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
      > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
      > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
      > > [... .]"
      > >
      > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
      > >
      > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
      > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
      > >
      > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
      > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
      > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
      > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
      > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
      > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
      > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
      > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
      > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
      > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
      > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
      > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
      > >
      > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
      > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
      > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
      > >
      > >  
      > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
      > > to experience life to enhance it."
      > >
      > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
      > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
      > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
      > >
      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
      > >
      > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
      > > originated and then evolved.
      > >
      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
      > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
      > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
      > > >
      > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
      > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
      > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
      > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
      > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
      > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
      > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
      > > >
      > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
      > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
      > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
      > > time being One(God).
      > > >
      > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
      > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
      > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
      > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
      > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
      > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
      > > >
      > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
      > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
      > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
      > > a glimpse of the Core.
      > > >
      > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
      > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
      > > >
      > > > I AM
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
      > > karma ...
      > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
      > > necessarily
      > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
      > > karma.
      > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
      > > it suggests
      > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
      > > > >
      > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
      > > action by the
      > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
      > > creator did
      > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
      > > effect is
      > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
      > > learns
      > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
      > > action of
      > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
      > > > >
      > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
      > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
      > > something
      > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
      > > create
      > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
      > > affects
      > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
      > > people
      > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
      > > That they
      > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
      > > Harold
      > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
      > > many
      > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
      > > idea that
      > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
      > > that
      > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
      > > saying there
      > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
      > > affect us, and
      > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
      > > for.
      > > > >
      > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
      > > individuals to
      > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
      > > "bad" way.
      > > > > History is filled with examples.
      > > > >
      > > > > ***
      > > > >
      > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
      > > will" and
      > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
      > > myself: "It
      > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
      > > > >
      > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
      > > when I
      > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
      > > that had
      > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
      > > the twins
      > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
      > > one had a
      > > > > different character than the other.
      > > > >
      > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
      > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
      > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
      > > > >
      > > > >  
      > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
      > > wonderful
      > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
      > > book
      > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
      > > media
      > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
      > > Neurosurgeon's
      > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
      > > > >
      > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
      > > that
      > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
      > > his NDE
      > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
      > > thought. He was
      > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
      > > days
      > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
      > > and
      > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
      > > recovered is
      > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
      > > was in
      > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
      > > vegetative
      > > > > state is expected.
      > > > >
      > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
      > > placed a
      > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
      > > received
      > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
      > > shootings I was
      > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
      > > beliefs
      > > > > were being crushed.
      > > > >
      > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
      > > now have a
      > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
      > > will etc.
      > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
      > > earth.
      > > > >
      > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
      > > resonated
      > > > > within me:
      > > > >
      > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
      > > could
      > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
      > > was
      > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
      > > tiniest
      > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
      > > will was
      > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
      > > no forward
      > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
      > > to be.
      > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
      > > world like
      > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
      > > and it
      > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
      > > > >
      > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
      > > scientific
      > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
      > > simple and
      > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
      > > > >
      > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
      > > can be
      > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
      > > > >
      > > > > I Am
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • etznab@aol.com
      Too bad there wasn t someone to challenge the writers at the time of the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were eliminated for
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
        the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
        eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
        because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
        myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
        tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
        They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
        a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:

        "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
        charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
        choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"

        https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H82gz2n-WqA

        Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
        name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?

        I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
        in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
        versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
        people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
        "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
        children and teach them to believe as well.

        As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
        (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
        within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
        of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
        their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
        where and how they even evolved.

        ***

        For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
        the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
        many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
        ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.

        I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
        others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
        America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
        the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
        religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
        IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
        historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
        believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Non <eckchains@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 1:26 am
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

         
        Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
        God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
        for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
        to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
        variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
        complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
        being horribly punished for their insolence.

        I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
        by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

        Non ;)

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > It's all interesting mental
        > gymnastics and circular
        > thinking fueled by myth.
        > When reading about lila I
        > thought of Lillith and how
        > God kept screwing up in
        > order to please Adam.
        >
        > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
        > >
        > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple
        contemplation seeds
        > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
        > >
        > >
        http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
        > >
        > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal
        and
        > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first
        there was
        > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity,
        but rather
        > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
        > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in
        movement.
        > > [... .]"
        > >
        > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
        > >
        > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but
        from that
        > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
        > >
        > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is
        more akin
        > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential
        paradox that
        > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage
        place.
        > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that
        arises when two
        > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and
        controls
        > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,”
        play, is thus more
        > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible
        interdependent
        > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that
        neither ever
        > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences
        into a
        > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of
        structurality,
        > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
        > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is
        Beauty."
        > >
        > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt
        only. And in
        > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
        > >
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
        > >
        > >  
        > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something
        less in order
        > > to experience life to enhance it."
        > >
        > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are
        several
        > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof
        Capra, from
        > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
        > >
        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
        > >
        > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of
        Lila first
        > > originated and then evolved.
        > >
        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
        "iam999freedom"
        > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a
        creator if the
        > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
        > > >
        > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought.
        Maybe there
        > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no
        Souls and no
        > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are
        inherently
        > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something
        they
        > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something
        less. In this
        > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things
        and all
        > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
        > > >
        > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how
        is life
        > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
        > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond
        space and
        > > time being One(God).
        > > >
        > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something
        less in
        > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to
        eventually
        > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually
        become
        > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are
        able to be
        > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully
        in the
        > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body
        limitations.
        > > >
        > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book
        not
        > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief.
        Also as the
        > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and
        were only
        > > a glimpse of the Core.
        > > >
        > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean
        beauty, joy,
        > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
        > > >
        > > > I AM
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
        etznab@ wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came
        to me was
        > > karma ...
        > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying
        that I
        > > necessarily
        > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma
        definitions of
        > > karma.
        > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and
        believe that
        > > it suggests
        > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
        > > > >
        > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn
        about
        > > action by the
        > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator
        if the
        > > creator did
        > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps,
        knowing the
        > > effect is
        > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is
        that baby
        > > learns
        > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or
        the
        > > action of
        > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
        > > > >
        > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are
        responsible for
        > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as
        if they had
        > > something
        > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person
        could
        > > create
        > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and
        bombs) that
        > > affects
        > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily
        believe that the
        > > people
        > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such
        things.
        > > That they
        > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I
        remember even
        > > Harold
        > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago
        which, in so
        > > many
        > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination
        and the
        > > idea that
        > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for
        everything
        > > that
        > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression
        Harold was
        > > saying there
        > > > > were examples where other people create things that
        can
        > > affect us, and
        > > > > that they are things we are not each personally
        "responsible"
        > > for.
        > > > >
        > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows
        for
        > > individuals to
        > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other
        people in a
        > > "bad" way.
        > > > > History is filled with examples.
        > > > >
        > > > > ***
        > > > >
        > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote
        about "free
        > > will" and
        > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say
        to
        > > myself: "It
        > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
        > > > >
        > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In
        the morning
        > > when I
        > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about
        conjoined twins
        > > that had
        > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to
        describe
        > > the twins
        > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many
        words)
        > > one had a
        > > > > different character than the other.
        > > > >
        > > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
        > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
        > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT
        LOVE
        > > > >
        > > > >  
        > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested
        about a
        > > wonderful
        > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard
        about the
        > > book
        > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and
        received some
        > > media
        > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of
        Heaven: A
        > > Neurosurgeon's
        > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
        > > > >
        > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so
        interesting is
        > > that
        > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the
        validity of
        > > his NDE
        > > > > cannot be explained by conventional
        scientific/medical
        > > thought. He was
        > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma
        for seven
        > > days
        > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain
        whereby a NDE
        > > and
        > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he
        completely
        > > recovered is
        > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the
        condition he
        > > was in
        > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival
        living in a
        > > vegetative
        > > > > state is expected.
        > > > >
        > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in
        synchronicity. I
        > > placed a
        > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago
        and just
        > > received
        > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the
        Newtown
        > > shootings I was
        > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my
        experiences and
        > > beliefs
        > > > > were being crushed.
        > > > >
        > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what
        happened I
        > > now have a
        > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love),
        evil, free
        > > will etc.
        > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my
        life on
        > > earth.
        > > > >
        > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I
        found richly
        > > resonated
        > > > > within me:
        > > > >
        > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more
        than I
        > > could
        > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them
        all. Evil
        > > was
        > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but
        only in the
        > > tiniest
        > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without
        it free
        > > will was
        > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no
        growth -
        > > no forward
        > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God
        longed for us
        > > to be.
        > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to
        be in a
        > > world like
        > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly
        dominant,
        > > and it
        > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
        > > > >
        > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other
        worlds,
        > > scientific
        > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in
        both a
        > > simple and
        > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and
        compassion.
        > > > >
        > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such
        worlds/states
        > > can be
        > > > > experienced with persistence
        meditative/comptemplative effort.
        > > > >
        > > > > I Am
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • iam999freedom
        Laughing so much aabout your post! Thanks, I needed that! I AM
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Laughing so much aabout your post! Thanks, I needed that!

          I AM

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" <eckchains@...> wrote:
          >
          > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then being horribly punished for their insolence.
          >
          > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
          >
          > Non ;)
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello All,
          > > It's all interesting mental
          > > gymnastics and circular
          > > thinking fueled by myth.
          > > When reading about lila I
          > > thought of Lillith and how
          > > God kept screwing up in
          > > order to please Adam.
          > >
          > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
          > > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
          > > >
          > > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
          > > >
          > > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
          > > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
          > > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
          > > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
          > > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
          > > > [... .]"
          > > >
          > > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
          > > >
          > > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
          > > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
          > > >
          > > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
          > > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
          > > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
          > > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
          > > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
          > > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
          > > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
          > > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
          > > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
          > > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
          > > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
          > > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
          > > >
          > > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
          > > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
          > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          > > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          > > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
          > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
          > > >
          > > >  
          > > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
          > > > to experience life to enhance it."
          > > >
          > > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
          > > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
          > > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
          > > >
          > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
          > > >
          > > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
          > > > originated and then evolved.
          > > >
          > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
          > > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
          > > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
          > > > >
          > > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
          > > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
          > > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
          > > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
          > > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
          > > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
          > > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
          > > > >
          > > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
          > > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
          > > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
          > > > time being One(God).
          > > > >
          > > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
          > > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
          > > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
          > > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
          > > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
          > > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
          > > > >
          > > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
          > > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
          > > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
          > > > a glimpse of the Core.
          > > > >
          > > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
          > > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
          > > > >
          > > > > I AM
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
          > > > karma ...
          > > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
          > > > necessarily
          > > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
          > > > karma.
          > > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
          > > > it suggests
          > > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
          > > > action by the
          > > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
          > > > creator did
          > > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
          > > > effect is
          > > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
          > > > learns
          > > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
          > > > action of
          > > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
          > > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
          > > > something
          > > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
          > > > create
          > > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
          > > > affects
          > > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
          > > > people
          > > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
          > > > That they
          > > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
          > > > Harold
          > > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
          > > > many
          > > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
          > > > idea that
          > > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
          > > > that
          > > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
          > > > saying there
          > > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
          > > > affect us, and
          > > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
          > > > for.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
          > > > individuals to
          > > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
          > > > "bad" way.
          > > > > > History is filled with examples.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > ***
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
          > > > will" and
          > > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
          > > > myself: "It
          > > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
          > > > when I
          > > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
          > > > that had
          > > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
          > > > the twins
          > > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
          > > > one had a
          > > > > > different character than the other.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
          > > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          > > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
          > > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
          > > > > >
          > > > > >  
          > > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
          > > > wonderful
          > > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
          > > > book
          > > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
          > > > media
          > > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
          > > > Neurosurgeon's
          > > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
          > > > that
          > > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
          > > > his NDE
          > > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
          > > > thought. He was
          > > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
          > > > days
          > > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
          > > > and
          > > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
          > > > recovered is
          > > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
          > > > was in
          > > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
          > > > vegetative
          > > > > > state is expected.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
          > > > placed a
          > > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
          > > > received
          > > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
          > > > shootings I was
          > > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
          > > > beliefs
          > > > > > were being crushed.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
          > > > now have a
          > > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
          > > > will etc.
          > > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
          > > > earth.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
          > > > resonated
          > > > > > within me:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
          > > > could
          > > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
          > > > was
          > > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
          > > > tiniest
          > > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
          > > > will was
          > > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
          > > > no forward
          > > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
          > > > to be.
          > > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
          > > > world like
          > > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
          > > > and it
          > > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
          > > > > >
          > > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
          > > > scientific
          > > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
          > > > simple and
          > > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
          > > > can be
          > > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I Am
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello I AM and All, Yes, religion doesn t allow people to have their own unique experiences with Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc. And, there s always some expert
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello I AM and All,
            Yes, religion doesn't allow
            people to have their own
            unique experiences with
            Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc.
            And, there's always some
            expert to redirect a person
            into their own niche when
            each should explore their
            own path but unite on the
            inner realms of the same,
            elusive, invisible Real.

            Prometheus

            I AM wrote:
            Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no
            proof at all and really makes no sense.

            On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced
            or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that
            everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into
            multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.

            I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very
            clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were
            souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely
            one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot
            of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite
            dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and
            this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about
            being in such an apathetic state.

            Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases
            thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were
            quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least
            they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the
            souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds
            seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well
            because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured
            that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of
            love with more freedom of expression.

            Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the
            early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were
            created.

            I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life
            beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings
            from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to
            instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the
            time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that
            dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.

            When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot
            of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but
            certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I
            tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with
            me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it
            all.

            I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first
            place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to
            perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.

            I AM


            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello All,
            > It's all interesting mental
            > gymnastics and circular
            > thinking fueled by myth.
            > When reading about lila I
            > thought of Lillith and how
            > God kept screwing up in
            > order to please Adam.
            >
            http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
            >
            > Prometheus
          • iam999freedom
            Thanks for your comments Prometheus; they were meaningful to me. I d like to share a link for those who may enjoy beautiful, interesting photos in the world
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks for your comments Prometheus; they were meaningful to me.

              I'd like to share a link for those who may enjoy beautiful, interesting photos in the world about nature, people, things, etc. There's 500 new photos that automatically refresh every day so it never gets boring. I usually quickly browse through about 50-100 a day which only takes about 5-10 minutes. I find that it helps me appreciate the wonderful aspects of this world which can easily be lost amidst a lot of the negativity. If you choose to check it out it is:

              http://www.flickriver.com/explore/interesting/24hours/


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello I AM and All,
              > Yes, religion doesn't allow
              > people to have their own
              > unique experiences with
              > Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc.
              > And, there's always some
              > expert to redirect a person
              > into their own niche when
              > each should explore their
              > own path but unite on the
              > inner realms of the same,
              > elusive, invisible Real.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > I AM wrote:
              > Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no
              > proof at all and really makes no sense.
              >
              > On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced
              > or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that
              > everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into
              > multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.
              >
              > I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very
              > clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were
              > souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely
              > one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot
              > of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite
              > dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and
              > this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about
              > being in such an apathetic state.
              >
              > Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases
              > thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were
              > quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least
              > they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the
              > souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds
              > seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well
              > because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured
              > that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of
              > love with more freedom of expression.
              >
              > Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the
              > early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were
              > created.
              >
              > I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life
              > beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings
              > from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to
              > instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the
              > time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that
              > dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.
              >
              > When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot
              > of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but
              > certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I
              > tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with
              > me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it
              > all.
              >
              > I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first
              > place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to
              > perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.
              >
              > I AM
              >
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello All,
              > > It's all interesting mental
              > > gymnastics and circular
              > > thinking fueled by myth.
              > > When reading about lila I
              > > thought of Lillith and how
              > > God kept screwing up in
              > > order to please Adam.
              > >
              > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Etznab and All, Yes, the gospel here: http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm had a very warped way of viewing women as well. I had read, elsewhere, that Lilith was
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Etznab and All,
                Yes, the gospel here:
                http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                had a very warped way
                of viewing women as
                well. I had read, elsewhere,
                that Lilith was created
                in the same way as Adam
                and was his equal, but
                she didn't want to stay
                with Adam, she was more
                spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                a tool, was domineering
                and only wanted sex.
                Thus, Lilith asked God
                if she could be with
                him in Heaven and this
                was granted. Therefore,
                Lilith was not a demon
                and evil but was actually
                very spiritual.

                The HBO series "True Blood"
                has a different take on Lilith.
                She was the first Vampire and
                God's first, perfect, creation.

                Prometheus

                etznab wrote:
                Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:

                "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"

                https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                82gz2n-WqA

                Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?

                I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                children and teach them to believe as well.

                As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                where and how they even evolved.

                ***

                For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.

                I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.



                Non wrote:
                Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                being horribly punished for their insolence.

                I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                Non ;)


                <prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello All,
                > It's all interesting mental
                > gymnastics and circular
                > thinking fueled by myth.
                > When reading about lila I
                > thought of Lillith and how
                > God kept screwing up in
                > order to please Adam.
                >
                http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
              • iam999freedom
                The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure). The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).

                  The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.

                  The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.

                  It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                  > Yes, the gospel here:
                  > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                  > had a very warped way
                  > of viewing women as
                  > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                  > that Lilith was created
                  > in the same way as Adam
                  > and was his equal, but
                  > she didn't want to stay
                  > with Adam, she was more
                  > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                  > a tool, was domineering
                  > and only wanted sex.
                  > Thus, Lilith asked God
                  > if she could be with
                  > him in Heaven and this
                  > was granted. Therefore,
                  > Lilith was not a demon
                  > and evil but was actually
                  > very spiritual.
                  >
                  > The HBO series "True Blood"
                  > has a different take on Lilith.
                  > She was the first Vampire and
                  > God's first, perfect, creation.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > etznab wrote:
                  > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                  > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                  > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                  > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                  > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                  > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                  > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                  > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                  >
                  > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                  > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                  > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                  >
                  > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                  > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                  > 82gz2n-WqA
                  >
                  > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                  > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                  >
                  > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                  > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                  > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                  > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                  > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                  > children and teach them to believe as well.
                  >
                  > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                  > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                  > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                  > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                  > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                  > where and how they even evolved.
                  >
                  > ***
                  >
                  > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                  > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                  > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                  > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                  >
                  > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                  > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                  > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                  > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                  > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                  > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                  > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                  > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Non wrote:
                  > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                  > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                  > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                  > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                  > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                  > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                  > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                  >
                  > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                  > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                  >
                  > Non ;)
                  >
                  >
                  > <prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello All,
                  > > It's all interesting mental
                  > > gymnastics and circular
                  > > thinking fueled by myth.
                  > > When reading about lila I
                  > > thought of Lillith and how
                  > > God kept screwing up in
                  > > order to please Adam.
                  > >
                  > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                  >
                • etznab18
                  Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I ve never known this to happen so much as in the last
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 30, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                    >
                    > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                    >
                    > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                    >
                    > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Etznab and All,
                    > > Yes, the gospel here:
                    > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                    > > had a very warped way
                    > > of viewing women as
                    > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                    > > that Lilith was created
                    > > in the same way as Adam
                    > > and was his equal, but
                    > > she didn't want to stay
                    > > with Adam, she was more
                    > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                    > > a tool, was domineering
                    > > and only wanted sex.
                    > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                    > > if she could be with
                    > > him in Heaven and this
                    > > was granted. Therefore,
                    > > Lilith was not a demon
                    > > and evil but was actually
                    > > very spiritual.
                    > >
                    > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                    > > has a different take on Lilith.
                    > > She was the first Vampire and
                    > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > > etznab wrote:
                    > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                    > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                    > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                    > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                    > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                    > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                    > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                    > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                    > >
                    > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                    > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                    > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                    > >
                    > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                    > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                    > > 82gz2n-WqA
                    > >
                    > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                    > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                    > >
                    > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                    > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                    > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                    > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                    > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                    > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                    > >
                    > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                    > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                    > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                    > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                    > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                    > > where and how they even evolved.
                    > >
                    > > ***
                    > >
                    > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                    > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                    > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                    > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                    > >
                    > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                    > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                    > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                    > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                    > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                    > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                    > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                    > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Non wrote:
                    > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                    > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                    > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                    > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                    > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                    > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                    > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                    > >
                    > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                    > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                    > >
                    > > Non ;)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > <prometheus wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello All,
                    > > > It's all interesting mental
                    > > > gymnastics and circular
                    > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                    > > > When reading about lila I
                    > > > thought of Lillith and how
                    > > > God kept screwing up in
                    > > > order to please Adam.
                    > > >
                    > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                    > >
                    >
                  • iam999freedom
                    Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking). Anyway, happy New Year to you and All! Cheers, I AM
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 2, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking).

                      Anyway, happy New Year to you and All!

                      Cheers,
                      I AM

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                      > >
                      > > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                      > >
                      > > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                      > >
                      > > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                      > >
                      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hello Etznab and All,
                      > > > Yes, the gospel here:
                      > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                      > > > had a very warped way
                      > > > of viewing women as
                      > > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                      > > > that Lilith was created
                      > > > in the same way as Adam
                      > > > and was his equal, but
                      > > > she didn't want to stay
                      > > > with Adam, she was more
                      > > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                      > > > a tool, was domineering
                      > > > and only wanted sex.
                      > > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                      > > > if she could be with
                      > > > him in Heaven and this
                      > > > was granted. Therefore,
                      > > > Lilith was not a demon
                      > > > and evil but was actually
                      > > > very spiritual.
                      > > >
                      > > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                      > > > has a different take on Lilith.
                      > > > She was the first Vampire and
                      > > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
                      > > >
                      > > > etznab wrote:
                      > > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                      > > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                      > > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                      > > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                      > > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                      > > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                      > > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                      > > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                      > > >
                      > > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                      > > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                      > > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                      > > >
                      > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                      > > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                      > > > 82gz2n-WqA
                      > > >
                      > > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                      > > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                      > > >
                      > > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                      > > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                      > > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                      > > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                      > > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                      > > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                      > > >
                      > > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                      > > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                      > > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                      > > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                      > > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                      > > > where and how they even evolved.
                      > > >
                      > > > ***
                      > > >
                      > > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                      > > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                      > > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                      > > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                      > > >
                      > > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                      > > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                      > > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                      > > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                      > > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                      > > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                      > > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                      > > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Non wrote:
                      > > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                      > > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                      > > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                      > > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                      > > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                      > > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                      > > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                      > > >
                      > > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                      > > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                      > > >
                      > > > Non ;)
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > <prometheus wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hello All,
                      > > > > It's all interesting mental
                      > > > > gymnastics and circular
                      > > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                      > > > > When reading about lila I
                      > > > > thought of Lillith and how
                      > > > > God kept screwing up in
                      > > > > order to please Adam.
                      > > > >
                      > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • etznab18
                      I ve never had so much trouble with a news server than with Yahoo. Just found out my account has been bouncing emails again (which means I don t get the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 10, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I've never had so much trouble with a news server than with Yahoo. Just found out my account has been bouncing emails again (which means I don't get the messages) since December 30th.

                        Now I have to go back and read about two weeks of posts.

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                        >
                        > Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking).
                        >
                        > Anyway, happy New Year to you and All!
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > I AM
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!
                        > >
                        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                        > > >
                        > > > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                        > > >
                        > > > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                        > > >
                        > > > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hello Etznab and All,
                        > > > > Yes, the gospel here:
                        > > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                        > > > > had a very warped way
                        > > > > of viewing women as
                        > > > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                        > > > > that Lilith was created
                        > > > > in the same way as Adam
                        > > > > and was his equal, but
                        > > > > she didn't want to stay
                        > > > > with Adam, she was more
                        > > > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                        > > > > a tool, was domineering
                        > > > > and only wanted sex.
                        > > > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                        > > > > if she could be with
                        > > > > him in Heaven and this
                        > > > > was granted. Therefore,
                        > > > > Lilith was not a demon
                        > > > > and evil but was actually
                        > > > > very spiritual.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                        > > > > has a different take on Lilith.
                        > > > > She was the first Vampire and
                        > > > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Prometheus
                        > > > >
                        > > > > etznab wrote:
                        > > > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                        > > > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                        > > > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                        > > > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                        > > > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                        > > > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                        > > > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                        > > > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                        > > > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                        > > > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                        > > > >
                        > > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                        > > > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                        > > > > 82gz2n-WqA
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                        > > > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                        > > > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                        > > > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                        > > > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                        > > > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                        > > > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                        > > > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                        > > > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                        > > > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                        > > > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                        > > > > where and how they even evolved.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ***
                        > > > >
                        > > > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                        > > > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                        > > > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                        > > > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                        > > > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                        > > > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                        > > > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                        > > > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                        > > > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                        > > > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                        > > > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Non wrote:
                        > > > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                        > > > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                        > > > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                        > > > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                        > > > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                        > > > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                        > > > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                        > > > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Non ;)
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > Hello All,
                        > > > > > It's all interesting mental
                        > > > > > gymnastics and circular
                        > > > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                        > > > > > When reading about lila I
                        > > > > > thought of Lillith and how
                        > > > > > God kept screwing up in
                        > > > > > order to please Adam.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.