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Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello IAM and All, Merry Christmas! Yes, the synchronicity of events is interesting and this occurred with the Newtown massacre. The one little girl who played
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 24, 2012
      Hello IAM and All,

      Merry Christmas!

      Yes, the synchronicity of events
      is interesting and this occurred
      with the Newtown massacre.
      The one little girl who played
      dead while all of her classmates
      were murdered was fortunate.
      In their class picture she is exactly
      in the middle. She's in the middle
      row of the three rows and in
      the middle of that row.

      Prometheus

      iam999freedom wrote:
      I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful book I've
      just finished reading. You may have heard about the book already as it was
      written recently in 2012 and received some media attention. The name of the book
      is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben
      Alexander, MD.

      What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that before it he
      was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE cannot be explained by
      conventional scientific/medical thought. He was attacked by e-coli menningitis
      and lay in a coma for seven days completely brain dead in the areas of the brain
      whereby a NDE and consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
      recovered is also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
      there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative state is
      expected.

      It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a hold on
      this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received the book this past
      Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was so shocked and saddened that
      the core of my experiences and beliefs were being crushed.

      Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a refreshed
      look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc. I also feel
      rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.

      The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated within
      me:

      "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could conceive - but
      that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was present in all the other
      universes as well, but only in the tiniest trace amounts. Evil was necessary
      because without it free will was impossible, and without free will there could
      be no growth - no forward movement, no chance for us to become what God longed
      for us to be. Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world
      like ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it would
      ultimatlely be triumphant."

      The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific debate and
      spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and explicit fascinating
      way that evoked love and compassion.

      Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be experienced
      with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.

      I Am
    • Janice Pfeiffer
      That definitely sounds like a must read book.  Thanks for pointing it out. ... From: iam999freedom Subject:
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
        That definitely sounds like a must read book.  Thanks for pointing it out.

        --- On Mon, 12/24/12, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

        From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, December 24, 2012, 2:50 AM

         
        I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.

        What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative state is expected.

        It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs were being crushed.

        Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc. I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.

        The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated within me:

        "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be. Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it would ultimatlely be triumphant."

        The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.

        Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.

        I Am

      • etznab18
        Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it. This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However,
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
          "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it."

          This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29

          I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first originated and then evolved.

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
          >
          > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of individual choice."
          >
          > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
          >
          > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
          >
          > I should mention that there are many things in the book not mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only a glimpse of the Core.
          >
          > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy, compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
          >
          > I AM
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
          > >
          > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was karma ...
          > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I necessarily
          > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of karma.
          > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that it suggests
          > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
          > >
          > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about action by the
          > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the creator did
          > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the effect is
          > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby learns
          > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the action of
          > > touching fire, is instructive.
          > >
          > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
          > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had something
          > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could create
          > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that affects
          > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the people
          > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things. That they
          > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even Harold
          > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so many
          > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the idea that
          > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything that
          > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was saying there
          > > were examples where other people create things that can affect us, and
          > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible" for.
          > >
          > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for individuals to
          > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a "bad" way.
          > > History is filled with examples.
          > >
          > > ***
          > >
          > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free will" and
          > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself: "It
          > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
          > >
          > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
          > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
          > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
          > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
          > > different character than the other.
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
          > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
          > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
          > >
          > >  
          > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful
          > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book
          > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media
          > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's
          > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
          > >
          > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that
          > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE
          > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was
          > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days
          > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and
          > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is
          > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
          > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative
          > > state is expected.
          > >
          > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a
          > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received
          > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was
          > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs
          > > were being crushed.
          > >
          > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a
          > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc.
          > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.
          > >
          > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated
          > > within me:
          > >
          > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could
          > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was
          > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest
          > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was
          > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward
          > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be.
          > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like
          > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it
          > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
          > >
          > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific
          > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and
          > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
          > >
          > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be
          > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
          > >
          > > I Am
          > >
          >
        • etznab@aol.com
          A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds (what I recently found) from the following link.
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
            A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
            (what I recently found) from the following link.

            http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf

            "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
            sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
            unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
            that there is self that is also always other and that such a
            perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
            [... .]"

            I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.

            This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
            whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.

            "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
            to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
            resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
            For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
            drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
            the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
            accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
            connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
            overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
            unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
            this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
            vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."

            It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
            that case, would anybody here care to comment?


            -----Original Message-----
            From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

             
            "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
            to experience life to enhance it."

            This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
            different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
            The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29

            I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
            originated and then evolved.

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
            <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
            creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
            >
            > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
            is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
            Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
            nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
            sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
            case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
            evil things as a matter of individual choice."
            >
            > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
            enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
            seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
            time being One(God).
            >
            > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
            order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
            enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
            identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
            it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
            "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
            >
            > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
            mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
            author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
            a glimpse of the Core.
            >
            > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
            compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
            >
            > I AM
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
            > >
            > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
            karma ...
            > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
            necessarily
            > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
            karma.
            > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
            it suggests
            > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
            > >
            > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
            action by the
            > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
            creator did
            > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
            effect is
            > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
            learns
            > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
            action of
            > > touching fire, is instructive.
            > >
            > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
            > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
            something
            > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
            create
            > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
            affects
            > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
            people
            > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
            That they
            > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
            Harold
            > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
            many
            > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
            idea that
            > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
            that
            > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
            saying there
            > > were examples where other people create things that can
            affect us, and
            > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
            for.
            > >
            > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
            individuals to
            > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
            "bad" way.
            > > History is filled with examples.
            > >
            > > ***
            > >
            > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
            will" and
            > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
            myself: "It
            > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
            > >
            > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
            when I
            > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
            that had
            > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
            the twins
            > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
            one had a
            > > different character than the other.
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
            > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
            > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
            > >
            > >  
            > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
            wonderful
            > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
            book
            > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
            media
            > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
            Neurosurgeon's
            > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
            > >
            > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
            that
            > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
            his NDE
            > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
            thought. He was
            > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
            days
            > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
            and
            > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
            recovered is
            > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
            was in
            > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
            vegetative
            > > state is expected.
            > >
            > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
            placed a
            > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
            received
            > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
            shootings I was
            > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
            beliefs
            > > were being crushed.
            > >
            > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
            now have a
            > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
            will etc.
            > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
            earth.
            > >
            > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
            resonated
            > > within me:
            > >
            > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
            could
            > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
            was
            > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
            tiniest
            > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
            will was
            > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
            no forward
            > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
            to be.
            > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
            world like
            > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
            and it
            > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
            > >
            > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
            scientific
            > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
            simple and
            > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
            > >
            > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
            can be
            > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
            > >
            > > I Am
            > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello All, It s all interesting mental gymnastics and circular thinking fueled by myth. When reading about lila I thought of Lillith and how God kept screwing
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
              Hello All,
              It's all interesting mental
              gymnastics and circular
              thinking fueled by myth.
              When reading about lila I
              thought of Lillith and how
              God kept screwing up in
              order to please Adam.

              http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm

              Prometheus

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
              >
              > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
              > (what I recently found) from the following link.
              >
              > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
              >
              > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
              > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
              > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
              > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
              > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
              > [... .]"
              >
              > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
              >
              > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
              > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
              >
              > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
              > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
              > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
              > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
              > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
              > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
              > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
              > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
              > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
              > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
              > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
              > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
              >
              > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
              > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
              >
              >  
              > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
              > to experience life to enhance it."
              >
              > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
              > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
              > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
              >
              > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
              > originated and then evolved.
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
              > iam999freedom@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
              > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
              > >
              > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
              > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
              > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
              > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
              > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
              > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
              > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
              > >
              > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
              > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
              > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
              > time being One(God).
              > >
              > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
              > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
              > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
              > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
              > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
              > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
              > >
              > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
              > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
              > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
              > a glimpse of the Core.
              > >
              > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
              > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
              > >
              > > I AM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
              > karma ...
              > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
              > necessarily
              > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
              > karma.
              > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
              > it suggests
              > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
              > > >
              > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
              > action by the
              > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
              > creator did
              > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
              > effect is
              > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
              > learns
              > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
              > action of
              > > > touching fire, is instructive.
              > > >
              > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
              > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
              > something
              > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
              > create
              > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
              > affects
              > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
              > people
              > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
              > That they
              > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
              > Harold
              > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
              > many
              > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
              > idea that
              > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
              > that
              > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
              > saying there
              > > > were examples where other people create things that can
              > affect us, and
              > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
              > for.
              > > >
              > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
              > individuals to
              > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
              > "bad" way.
              > > > History is filled with examples.
              > > >
              > > > ***
              > > >
              > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
              > will" and
              > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
              > myself: "It
              > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
              > > >
              > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
              > when I
              > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
              > that had
              > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
              > the twins
              > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
              > one had a
              > > > different character than the other.
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
              > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
              > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
              > > >
              > > >  
              > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
              > wonderful
              > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
              > book
              > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
              > media
              > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
              > Neurosurgeon's
              > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
              > > >
              > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
              > that
              > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
              > his NDE
              > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
              > thought. He was
              > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
              > days
              > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
              > and
              > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
              > recovered is
              > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
              > was in
              > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
              > vegetative
              > > > state is expected.
              > > >
              > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
              > placed a
              > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
              > received
              > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
              > shootings I was
              > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
              > beliefs
              > > > were being crushed.
              > > >
              > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
              > now have a
              > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
              > will etc.
              > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
              > earth.
              > > >
              > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
              > resonated
              > > > within me:
              > > >
              > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
              > could
              > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
              > was
              > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
              > tiniest
              > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
              > will was
              > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
              > no forward
              > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
              > to be.
              > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
              > world like
              > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
              > and it
              > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
              > > >
              > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
              > scientific
              > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
              > simple and
              > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
              > > >
              > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
              > can be
              > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
              > > >
              > > > I Am
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • iam999freedom
              Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no proof at all and really makes no sense. On the other hand the story of Lila I
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
                Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no proof at all and really makes no sense.

                On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.

                I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about being in such an apathetic state.

                Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of love with more freedom of expression.

                Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were created.

                I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.

                When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it all.

                I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.

                I AM


                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello All,
                > It's all interesting mental
                > gymnastics and circular
                > thinking fueled by myth.
                > When reading about lila I
                > thought of Lillith and how
                > God kept screwing up in
                > order to please Adam.
                >
                > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                > >
                > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                > >
                > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                > >
                > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                > > [... .]"
                > >
                > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                > >
                > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                > >
                > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                > >
                > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                > >
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                > >
                > >  
                > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                > > to experience life to enhance it."
                > >
                > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                > >
                > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                > >
                > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                > > originated and then evolved.
                > >
                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                > > >
                > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                > > >
                > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                > > time being One(God).
                > > >
                > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                > > >
                > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                > > a glimpse of the Core.
                > > >
                > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                > > >
                > > > I AM
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                > > karma ...
                > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                > > necessarily
                > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                > > karma.
                > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                > > it suggests
                > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                > > > >
                > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                > > action by the
                > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                > > creator did
                > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                > > effect is
                > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                > > learns
                > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                > > action of
                > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                > > > >
                > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                > > something
                > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                > > create
                > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                > > affects
                > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                > > people
                > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                > > That they
                > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                > > Harold
                > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                > > many
                > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                > > idea that
                > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                > > that
                > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                > > saying there
                > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                > > affect us, and
                > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                > > for.
                > > > >
                > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                > > individuals to
                > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                > > "bad" way.
                > > > > History is filled with examples.
                > > > >
                > > > > ***
                > > > >
                > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                > > will" and
                > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                > > myself: "It
                > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                > > > >
                > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                > > when I
                > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                > > that had
                > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                > > the twins
                > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                > > one had a
                > > > > different character than the other.
                > > > >
                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                > > > >
                > > > >  
                > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                > > wonderful
                > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                > > book
                > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                > > media
                > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                > > Neurosurgeon's
                > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                > > > >
                > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                > > that
                > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                > > his NDE
                > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                > > thought. He was
                > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                > > days
                > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                > > and
                > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                > > recovered is
                > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                > > was in
                > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                > > vegetative
                > > > > state is expected.
                > > > >
                > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                > > placed a
                > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                > > received
                > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                > > shootings I was
                > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                > > beliefs
                > > > > were being crushed.
                > > > >
                > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                > > now have a
                > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                > > will etc.
                > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                > > earth.
                > > > >
                > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                > > resonated
                > > > > within me:
                > > > >
                > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                > > could
                > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                > > was
                > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                > > tiniest
                > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                > > will was
                > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                > > no forward
                > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                > > to be.
                > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                > > world like
                > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                > > and it
                > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                > > > >
                > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                > > scientific
                > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                > > simple and
                > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                > > > >
                > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                > > can be
                > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                > > > >
                > > > > I Am
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Non
                Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God s attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
                  Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then being horribly punished for their insolence.

                  I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                  Non ;)

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  > It's all interesting mental
                  > gymnastics and circular
                  > thinking fueled by myth.
                  > When reading about lila I
                  > thought of Lillith and how
                  > God kept screwing up in
                  > order to please Adam.
                  >
                  > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                  > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                  > >
                  > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                  > >
                  > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                  > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                  > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                  > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                  > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                  > > [... .]"
                  > >
                  > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                  > >
                  > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                  > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                  > >
                  > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                  > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                  > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                  > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                  > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                  > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                  > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                  > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                  > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                  > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                  > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                  > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                  > >
                  > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                  > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                  > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                  > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                  > >
                  > >  
                  > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                  > > to experience life to enhance it."
                  > >
                  > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                  > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                  > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                  > >
                  > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                  > >
                  > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                  > > originated and then evolved.
                  > >
                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                  > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                  > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                  > > >
                  > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                  > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                  > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                  > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                  > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                  > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                  > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                  > > >
                  > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                  > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                  > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                  > > time being One(God).
                  > > >
                  > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                  > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                  > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                  > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                  > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                  > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                  > > >
                  > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                  > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                  > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                  > > a glimpse of the Core.
                  > > >
                  > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                  > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                  > > >
                  > > > I AM
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                  > > karma ...
                  > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                  > > necessarily
                  > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                  > > karma.
                  > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                  > > it suggests
                  > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                  > > action by the
                  > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                  > > creator did
                  > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                  > > effect is
                  > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                  > > learns
                  > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                  > > action of
                  > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                  > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                  > > something
                  > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                  > > create
                  > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                  > > affects
                  > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                  > > people
                  > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                  > > That they
                  > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                  > > Harold
                  > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                  > > many
                  > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                  > > idea that
                  > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                  > > that
                  > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                  > > saying there
                  > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                  > > affect us, and
                  > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                  > > for.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                  > > individuals to
                  > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                  > > "bad" way.
                  > > > > History is filled with examples.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ***
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                  > > will" and
                  > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                  > > myself: "It
                  > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                  > > when I
                  > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                  > > that had
                  > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                  > > the twins
                  > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                  > > one had a
                  > > > > different character than the other.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                  > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                  > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                  > > > >
                  > > > >  
                  > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                  > > wonderful
                  > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                  > > book
                  > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                  > > media
                  > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                  > > Neurosurgeon's
                  > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                  > > that
                  > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                  > > his NDE
                  > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                  > > thought. He was
                  > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                  > > days
                  > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                  > > and
                  > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                  > > recovered is
                  > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                  > > was in
                  > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                  > > vegetative
                  > > > > state is expected.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                  > > placed a
                  > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                  > > received
                  > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                  > > shootings I was
                  > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                  > > beliefs
                  > > > > were being crushed.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                  > > now have a
                  > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                  > > will etc.
                  > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                  > > earth.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                  > > resonated
                  > > > > within me:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                  > > could
                  > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                  > > was
                  > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                  > > tiniest
                  > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                  > > will was
                  > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                  > > no forward
                  > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                  > > to be.
                  > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                  > > world like
                  > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                  > > and it
                  > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                  > > scientific
                  > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                  > > simple and
                  > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                  > > can be
                  > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I Am
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  Too bad there wasn t someone to challenge the writers at the time of the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were eliminated for
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
                    Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                    the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                    eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                    because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                    myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                    tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                    They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                    a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:

                    "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                    charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                    choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"

                    https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H82gz2n-WqA

                    Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                    name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?

                    I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                    in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                    versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                    people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                    "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                    children and teach them to believe as well.

                    As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                    (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                    within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                    of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                    their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                    where and how they even evolved.

                    ***

                    For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                    the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                    many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                    ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.

                    I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                    others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                    America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                    the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                    religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                    IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                    historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                    believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Non <eckchains@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 1:26 am
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

                     
                    Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                    God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                    for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                    to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                    variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                    complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                    being horribly punished for their insolence.

                    I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                    by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                    Non ;)

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    > It's all interesting mental
                    > gymnastics and circular
                    > thinking fueled by myth.
                    > When reading about lila I
                    > thought of Lillith and how
                    > God kept screwing up in
                    > order to please Adam.
                    >
                    > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple
                    contemplation seeds
                    > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                    > >
                    > >
                    http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                    > >
                    > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal
                    and
                    > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first
                    there was
                    > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity,
                    but rather
                    > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                    > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in
                    movement.
                    > > [... .]"
                    > >
                    > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                    > >
                    > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but
                    from that
                    > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                    > >
                    > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is
                    more akin
                    > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential
                    paradox that
                    > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage
                    place.
                    > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that
                    arises when two
                    > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and
                    controls
                    > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,”
                    play, is thus more
                    > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible
                    interdependent
                    > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that
                    neither ever
                    > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences
                    into a
                    > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of
                    structurality,
                    > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                    > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is
                    Beauty."
                    > >
                    > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt
                    only. And in
                    > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                    > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                    > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something
                    less in order
                    > > to experience life to enhance it."
                    > >
                    > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are
                    several
                    > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof
                    Capra, from
                    > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                    > >
                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                    > >
                    > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of
                    Lila first
                    > > originated and then evolved.
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                    "iam999freedom"
                    > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a
                    creator if the
                    > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                    > > >
                    > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought.
                    Maybe there
                    > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no
                    Souls and no
                    > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are
                    inherently
                    > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something
                    they
                    > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something
                    less. In this
                    > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things
                    and all
                    > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                    > > >
                    > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how
                    is life
                    > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                    > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond
                    space and
                    > > time being One(God).
                    > > >
                    > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something
                    less in
                    > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to
                    eventually
                    > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually
                    become
                    > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are
                    able to be
                    > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully
                    in the
                    > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body
                    limitations.
                    > > >
                    > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book
                    not
                    > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief.
                    Also as the
                    > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and
                    were only
                    > > a glimpse of the Core.
                    > > >
                    > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean
                    beauty, joy,
                    > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                    > > >
                    > > > I AM
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                    etznab@ wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came
                    to me was
                    > > karma ...
                    > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying
                    that I
                    > > necessarily
                    > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma
                    definitions of
                    > > karma.
                    > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and
                    believe that
                    > > it suggests
                    > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn
                    about
                    > > action by the
                    > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator
                    if the
                    > > creator did
                    > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps,
                    knowing the
                    > > effect is
                    > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is
                    that baby
                    > > learns
                    > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or
                    the
                    > > action of
                    > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are
                    responsible for
                    > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as
                    if they had
                    > > something
                    > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person
                    could
                    > > create
                    > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and
                    bombs) that
                    > > affects
                    > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily
                    believe that the
                    > > people
                    > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such
                    things.
                    > > That they
                    > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I
                    remember even
                    > > Harold
                    > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago
                    which, in so
                    > > many
                    > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination
                    and the
                    > > idea that
                    > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for
                    everything
                    > > that
                    > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression
                    Harold was
                    > > saying there
                    > > > > were examples where other people create things that
                    can
                    > > affect us, and
                    > > > > that they are things we are not each personally
                    "responsible"
                    > > for.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows
                    for
                    > > individuals to
                    > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other
                    people in a
                    > > "bad" way.
                    > > > > History is filled with examples.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ***
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote
                    about "free
                    > > will" and
                    > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say
                    to
                    > > myself: "It
                    > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In
                    the morning
                    > > when I
                    > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about
                    conjoined twins
                    > > that had
                    > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to
                    describe
                    > > the twins
                    > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many
                    words)
                    > > one had a
                    > > > > different character than the other.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                    > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                    > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT
                    LOVE
                    > > > >
                    > > > >  
                    > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested
                    about a
                    > > wonderful
                    > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard
                    about the
                    > > book
                    > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and
                    received some
                    > > media
                    > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of
                    Heaven: A
                    > > Neurosurgeon's
                    > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so
                    interesting is
                    > > that
                    > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the
                    validity of
                    > > his NDE
                    > > > > cannot be explained by conventional
                    scientific/medical
                    > > thought. He was
                    > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma
                    for seven
                    > > days
                    > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain
                    whereby a NDE
                    > > and
                    > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he
                    completely
                    > > recovered is
                    > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the
                    condition he
                    > > was in
                    > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival
                    living in a
                    > > vegetative
                    > > > > state is expected.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in
                    synchronicity. I
                    > > placed a
                    > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago
                    and just
                    > > received
                    > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the
                    Newtown
                    > > shootings I was
                    > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my
                    experiences and
                    > > beliefs
                    > > > > were being crushed.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what
                    happened I
                    > > now have a
                    > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love),
                    evil, free
                    > > will etc.
                    > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my
                    life on
                    > > earth.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I
                    found richly
                    > > resonated
                    > > > > within me:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more
                    than I
                    > > could
                    > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them
                    all. Evil
                    > > was
                    > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but
                    only in the
                    > > tiniest
                    > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without
                    it free
                    > > will was
                    > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no
                    growth -
                    > > no forward
                    > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God
                    longed for us
                    > > to be.
                    > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to
                    be in a
                    > > world like
                    > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly
                    dominant,
                    > > and it
                    > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other
                    worlds,
                    > > scientific
                    > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in
                    both a
                    > > simple and
                    > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and
                    compassion.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such
                    worlds/states
                    > > can be
                    > > > > experienced with persistence
                    meditative/comptemplative effort.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I Am
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • iam999freedom
                    Laughing so much aabout your post! Thanks, I needed that! I AM
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
                      Laughing so much aabout your post! Thanks, I needed that!

                      I AM

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" <eckchains@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then being horribly punished for their insolence.
                      >
                      > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                      >
                      > Non ;)
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello All,
                      > > It's all interesting mental
                      > > gymnastics and circular
                      > > thinking fueled by myth.
                      > > When reading about lila I
                      > > thought of Lillith and how
                      > > God kept screwing up in
                      > > order to please Adam.
                      > >
                      > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                      > > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                      > > >
                      > > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                      > > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                      > > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                      > > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                      > > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                      > > > [... .]"
                      > > >
                      > > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                      > > >
                      > > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                      > > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                      > > >
                      > > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                      > > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                      > > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                      > > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                      > > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                      > > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                      > > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                      > > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                      > > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                      > > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                      > > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                      > > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                      > > >
                      > > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                      > > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                      > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      > > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                      > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                      > > >
                      > > >  
                      > > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                      > > > to experience life to enhance it."
                      > > >
                      > > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                      > > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                      > > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                      > > >
                      > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                      > > >
                      > > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                      > > > originated and then evolved.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                      > > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                      > > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                      > > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                      > > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                      > > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                      > > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                      > > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                      > > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                      > > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                      > > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                      > > > time being One(God).
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                      > > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                      > > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                      > > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                      > > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                      > > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                      > > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                      > > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                      > > > a glimpse of the Core.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                      > > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I AM
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                      > > > karma ...
                      > > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                      > > > necessarily
                      > > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                      > > > karma.
                      > > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                      > > > it suggests
                      > > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                      > > > action by the
                      > > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                      > > > creator did
                      > > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                      > > > effect is
                      > > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                      > > > learns
                      > > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                      > > > action of
                      > > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                      > > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                      > > > something
                      > > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                      > > > create
                      > > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                      > > > affects
                      > > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                      > > > people
                      > > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                      > > > That they
                      > > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                      > > > Harold
                      > > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                      > > > many
                      > > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                      > > > idea that
                      > > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                      > > > that
                      > > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                      > > > saying there
                      > > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                      > > > affect us, and
                      > > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                      > > > for.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                      > > > individuals to
                      > > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                      > > > "bad" way.
                      > > > > > History is filled with examples.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > ***
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                      > > > will" and
                      > > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                      > > > myself: "It
                      > > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                      > > > when I
                      > > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                      > > > that had
                      > > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                      > > > the twins
                      > > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                      > > > one had a
                      > > > > > different character than the other.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                      > > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      > > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                      > > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >  
                      > > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                      > > > wonderful
                      > > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                      > > > book
                      > > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                      > > > media
                      > > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                      > > > Neurosurgeon's
                      > > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                      > > > that
                      > > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                      > > > his NDE
                      > > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                      > > > thought. He was
                      > > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                      > > > days
                      > > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                      > > > and
                      > > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                      > > > recovered is
                      > > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                      > > > was in
                      > > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                      > > > vegetative
                      > > > > > state is expected.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                      > > > placed a
                      > > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                      > > > received
                      > > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                      > > > shootings I was
                      > > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                      > > > beliefs
                      > > > > > were being crushed.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                      > > > now have a
                      > > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                      > > > will etc.
                      > > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                      > > > earth.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                      > > > resonated
                      > > > > > within me:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                      > > > could
                      > > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                      > > > was
                      > > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                      > > > tiniest
                      > > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                      > > > will was
                      > > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                      > > > no forward
                      > > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                      > > > to be.
                      > > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                      > > > world like
                      > > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                      > > > and it
                      > > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                      > > > scientific
                      > > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                      > > > simple and
                      > > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                      > > > can be
                      > > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I Am
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello I AM and All, Yes, religion doesn t allow people to have their own unique experiences with Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc. And, there s always some expert
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
                        Hello I AM and All,
                        Yes, religion doesn't allow
                        people to have their own
                        unique experiences with
                        Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc.
                        And, there's always some
                        expert to redirect a person
                        into their own niche when
                        each should explore their
                        own path but unite on the
                        inner realms of the same,
                        elusive, invisible Real.

                        Prometheus

                        I AM wrote:
                        Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no
                        proof at all and really makes no sense.

                        On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced
                        or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that
                        everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into
                        multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.

                        I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very
                        clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were
                        souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely
                        one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot
                        of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite
                        dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and
                        this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about
                        being in such an apathetic state.

                        Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases
                        thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were
                        quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least
                        they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the
                        souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds
                        seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well
                        because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured
                        that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of
                        love with more freedom of expression.

                        Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the
                        early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were
                        created.

                        I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life
                        beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings
                        from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to
                        instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the
                        time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that
                        dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.

                        When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot
                        of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but
                        certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I
                        tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with
                        me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it
                        all.

                        I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first
                        place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to
                        perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.

                        I AM


                        prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        > It's all interesting mental
                        > gymnastics and circular
                        > thinking fueled by myth.
                        > When reading about lila I
                        > thought of Lillith and how
                        > God kept screwing up in
                        > order to please Adam.
                        >
                        http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                      • iam999freedom
                        Thanks for your comments Prometheus; they were meaningful to me. I d like to share a link for those who may enjoy beautiful, interesting photos in the world
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
                          Thanks for your comments Prometheus; they were meaningful to me.

                          I'd like to share a link for those who may enjoy beautiful, interesting photos in the world about nature, people, things, etc. There's 500 new photos that automatically refresh every day so it never gets boring. I usually quickly browse through about 50-100 a day which only takes about 5-10 minutes. I find that it helps me appreciate the wonderful aspects of this world which can easily be lost amidst a lot of the negativity. If you choose to check it out it is:

                          http://www.flickriver.com/explore/interesting/24hours/


                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello I AM and All,
                          > Yes, religion doesn't allow
                          > people to have their own
                          > unique experiences with
                          > Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc.
                          > And, there's always some
                          > expert to redirect a person
                          > into their own niche when
                          > each should explore their
                          > own path but unite on the
                          > inner realms of the same,
                          > elusive, invisible Real.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > I AM wrote:
                          > Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no
                          > proof at all and really makes no sense.
                          >
                          > On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced
                          > or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that
                          > everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into
                          > multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.
                          >
                          > I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very
                          > clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were
                          > souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely
                          > one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot
                          > of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite
                          > dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and
                          > this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about
                          > being in such an apathetic state.
                          >
                          > Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases
                          > thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were
                          > quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least
                          > they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the
                          > souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds
                          > seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well
                          > because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured
                          > that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of
                          > love with more freedom of expression.
                          >
                          > Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the
                          > early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were
                          > created.
                          >
                          > I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life
                          > beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings
                          > from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to
                          > instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the
                          > time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that
                          > dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.
                          >
                          > When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot
                          > of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but
                          > certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I
                          > tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with
                          > me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it
                          > all.
                          >
                          > I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first
                          > place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to
                          > perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.
                          >
                          > I AM
                          >
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello All,
                          > > It's all interesting mental
                          > > gymnastics and circular
                          > > thinking fueled by myth.
                          > > When reading about lila I
                          > > thought of Lillith and how
                          > > God kept screwing up in
                          > > order to please Adam.
                          > >
                          > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Etznab and All, Yes, the gospel here: http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm had a very warped way of viewing women as well. I had read, elsewhere, that Lilith was
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
                            Hello Etznab and All,
                            Yes, the gospel here:
                            http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                            had a very warped way
                            of viewing women as
                            well. I had read, elsewhere,
                            that Lilith was created
                            in the same way as Adam
                            and was his equal, but
                            she didn't want to stay
                            with Adam, she was more
                            spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                            a tool, was domineering
                            and only wanted sex.
                            Thus, Lilith asked God
                            if she could be with
                            him in Heaven and this
                            was granted. Therefore,
                            Lilith was not a demon
                            and evil but was actually
                            very spiritual.

                            The HBO series "True Blood"
                            has a different take on Lilith.
                            She was the first Vampire and
                            God's first, perfect, creation.

                            Prometheus

                            etznab wrote:
                            Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                            the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                            eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                            because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                            myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                            tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                            They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                            a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:

                            "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                            charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                            choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"

                            https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                            !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                            82gz2n-WqA

                            Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                            name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?

                            I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                            in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                            versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                            people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                            "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                            children and teach them to believe as well.

                            As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                            (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                            within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                            of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                            their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                            where and how they even evolved.

                            ***

                            For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                            the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                            many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                            ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.

                            I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                            others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                            America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                            the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                            religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                            IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                            historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                            believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.



                            Non wrote:
                            Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                            God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                            for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                            to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                            variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                            complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                            being horribly punished for their insolence.

                            I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                            by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                            Non ;)


                            <prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello All,
                            > It's all interesting mental
                            > gymnastics and circular
                            > thinking fueled by myth.
                            > When reading about lila I
                            > thought of Lillith and how
                            > God kept screwing up in
                            > order to please Adam.
                            >
                            http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                          • iam999freedom
                            The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure). The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
                              The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).

                              The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.

                              The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.

                              It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Etznab and All,
                              > Yes, the gospel here:
                              > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                              > had a very warped way
                              > of viewing women as
                              > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                              > that Lilith was created
                              > in the same way as Adam
                              > and was his equal, but
                              > she didn't want to stay
                              > with Adam, she was more
                              > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                              > a tool, was domineering
                              > and only wanted sex.
                              > Thus, Lilith asked God
                              > if she could be with
                              > him in Heaven and this
                              > was granted. Therefore,
                              > Lilith was not a demon
                              > and evil but was actually
                              > very spiritual.
                              >
                              > The HBO series "True Blood"
                              > has a different take on Lilith.
                              > She was the first Vampire and
                              > God's first, perfect, creation.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              > etznab wrote:
                              > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                              > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                              > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                              > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                              > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                              > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                              > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                              > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                              >
                              > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                              > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                              > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                              >
                              > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                              > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                              > 82gz2n-WqA
                              >
                              > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                              > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                              >
                              > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                              > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                              > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                              > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                              > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                              > children and teach them to believe as well.
                              >
                              > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                              > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                              > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                              > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                              > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                              > where and how they even evolved.
                              >
                              > ***
                              >
                              > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                              > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                              > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                              > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                              >
                              > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                              > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                              > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                              > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                              > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                              > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                              > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                              > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Non wrote:
                              > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                              > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                              > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                              > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                              > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                              > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                              > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                              >
                              > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                              > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                              >
                              > Non ;)
                              >
                              >
                              > <prometheus wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello All,
                              > > It's all interesting mental
                              > > gymnastics and circular
                              > > thinking fueled by myth.
                              > > When reading about lila I
                              > > thought of Lillith and how
                              > > God kept screwing up in
                              > > order to please Adam.
                              > >
                              > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                              >
                            • etznab18
                              Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I ve never known this to happen so much as in the last
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 30, 2012
                                Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                                >
                                > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                                >
                                > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                                >
                                > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                                >
                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                > > Yes, the gospel here:
                                > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                > > had a very warped way
                                > > of viewing women as
                                > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                > > that Lilith was created
                                > > in the same way as Adam
                                > > and was his equal, but
                                > > she didn't want to stay
                                > > with Adam, she was more
                                > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                > > a tool, was domineering
                                > > and only wanted sex.
                                > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                > > if she could be with
                                > > him in Heaven and this
                                > > was granted. Therefore,
                                > > Lilith was not a demon
                                > > and evil but was actually
                                > > very spiritual.
                                > >
                                > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                > > has a different take on Lilith.
                                > > She was the first Vampire and
                                > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > > etznab wrote:
                                > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                > >
                                > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                > >
                                > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                > > 82gz2n-WqA
                                > >
                                > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                > >
                                > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                > >
                                > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                > > where and how they even evolved.
                                > >
                                > > ***
                                > >
                                > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                > >
                                > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Non wrote:
                                > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                > >
                                > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                > >
                                > > Non ;)
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > <prometheus wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hello All,
                                > > > It's all interesting mental
                                > > > gymnastics and circular
                                > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                > > > When reading about lila I
                                > > > thought of Lillith and how
                                > > > God kept screwing up in
                                > > > order to please Adam.
                                > > >
                                > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                > >
                                >
                              • iam999freedom
                                Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking). Anyway, happy New Year to you and All! Cheers, I AM
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 2, 2013
                                  Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking).

                                  Anyway, happy New Year to you and All!

                                  Cheers,
                                  I AM

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!
                                  >
                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                                  > >
                                  > > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                                  > >
                                  > > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                                  > >
                                  > > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                  > > > Yes, the gospel here:
                                  > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                  > > > had a very warped way
                                  > > > of viewing women as
                                  > > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                  > > > that Lilith was created
                                  > > > in the same way as Adam
                                  > > > and was his equal, but
                                  > > > she didn't want to stay
                                  > > > with Adam, she was more
                                  > > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                  > > > a tool, was domineering
                                  > > > and only wanted sex.
                                  > > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                  > > > if she could be with
                                  > > > him in Heaven and this
                                  > > > was granted. Therefore,
                                  > > > Lilith was not a demon
                                  > > > and evil but was actually
                                  > > > very spiritual.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                  > > > has a different take on Lilith.
                                  > > > She was the first Vampire and
                                  > > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Prometheus
                                  > > >
                                  > > > etznab wrote:
                                  > > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                  > > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                  > > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                  > > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                  > > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                  > > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                  > > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                  > > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                  > > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                  > > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                  > > >
                                  > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                  > > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                  > > > 82gz2n-WqA
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                  > > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                  > > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                  > > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                  > > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                  > > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                  > > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                  > > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                  > > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                  > > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                  > > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                  > > > where and how they even evolved.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ***
                                  > > >
                                  > > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                  > > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                  > > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                  > > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                  > > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                  > > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                  > > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                  > > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                  > > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                  > > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                  > > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Non wrote:
                                  > > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                  > > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                  > > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                  > > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                  > > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                  > > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                  > > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                  > > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Non ;)
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > <prometheus wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Hello All,
                                  > > > > It's all interesting mental
                                  > > > > gymnastics and circular
                                  > > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                  > > > > When reading about lila I
                                  > > > > thought of Lillith and how
                                  > > > > God kept screwing up in
                                  > > > > order to please Adam.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • etznab18
                                  I ve never had so much trouble with a news server than with Yahoo. Just found out my account has been bouncing emails again (which means I don t get the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 10, 2013
                                    I've never had so much trouble with a news server than with Yahoo. Just found out my account has been bouncing emails again (which means I don't get the messages) since December 30th.

                                    Now I have to go back and read about two weeks of posts.

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking).
                                    >
                                    > Anyway, happy New Year to you and All!
                                    >
                                    > Cheers,
                                    > I AM
                                    >
                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                    > > > > Yes, the gospel here:
                                    > > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                    > > > > had a very warped way
                                    > > > > of viewing women as
                                    > > > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                    > > > > that Lilith was created
                                    > > > > in the same way as Adam
                                    > > > > and was his equal, but
                                    > > > > she didn't want to stay
                                    > > > > with Adam, she was more
                                    > > > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                    > > > > a tool, was domineering
                                    > > > > and only wanted sex.
                                    > > > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                    > > > > if she could be with
                                    > > > > him in Heaven and this
                                    > > > > was granted. Therefore,
                                    > > > > Lilith was not a demon
                                    > > > > and evil but was actually
                                    > > > > very spiritual.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                    > > > > has a different take on Lilith.
                                    > > > > She was the first Vampire and
                                    > > > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Prometheus
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > etznab wrote:
                                    > > > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                    > > > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                    > > > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                    > > > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                    > > > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                    > > > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                    > > > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                    > > > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                    > > > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                    > > > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                    > > > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                    > > > > 82gz2n-WqA
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                    > > > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                    > > > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                    > > > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                    > > > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                    > > > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                    > > > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                    > > > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                    > > > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                    > > > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                    > > > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                    > > > > where and how they even evolved.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ***
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                    > > > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                    > > > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                    > > > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                    > > > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                    > > > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                    > > > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                    > > > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                    > > > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                    > > > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                    > > > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Non wrote:
                                    > > > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                    > > > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                    > > > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                    > > > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                    > > > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                    > > > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                    > > > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                    > > > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Non ;)
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > Hello All,
                                    > > > > > It's all interesting mental
                                    > > > > > gymnastics and circular
                                    > > > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                    > > > > > When reading about lila I
                                    > > > > > thought of Lillith and how
                                    > > > > > God kept screwing up in
                                    > > > > > order to please Adam.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
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