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Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

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  • iam999freedom
    Hi Etznab, You wrote, What would creation be for a creator if the creator did not know the effect of a creation? In a previous post you wrote, Here s
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 24, 2012
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      Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the creator did not know the effect of a creation?"

      In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of individual choice."

      In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).

      Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.

      I should mention that there are many things in the book not mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only a glimpse of the Core.

      Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy, compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.

      I AM



      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
      >
      > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was karma ...
      > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I necessarily
      > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of karma.
      > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that it suggests
      > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
      >
      > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about action by the
      > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the creator did
      > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the effect is
      > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby learns
      > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the action of
      > touching fire, is instructive.
      >
      > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
      > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had something
      > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could create
      > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that affects
      > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the people
      > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things. That they
      > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even Harold
      > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so many
      > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the idea that
      > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything that
      > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was saying there
      > were examples where other people create things that can affect us, and
      > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible" for.
      >
      > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for individuals to
      > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a "bad" way.
      > History is filled with examples.
      >
      > ***
      >
      > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free will" and
      > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself: "It
      > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
      >
      > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
      > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
      > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
      > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
      > different character than the other.
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
      >
      >  
      > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful
      > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book
      > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media
      > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's
      > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
      >
      > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that
      > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE
      > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was
      > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days
      > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and
      > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is
      > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
      > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative
      > state is expected.
      >
      > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a
      > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received
      > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was
      > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs
      > were being crushed.
      >
      > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a
      > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc.
      > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.
      >
      > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated
      > within me:
      >
      > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could
      > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was
      > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest
      > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was
      > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward
      > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be.
      > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like
      > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it
      > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
      >
      > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific
      > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and
      > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
      >
      > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be
      > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
      >
      > I Am
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello IAM and All, Merry Christmas! Yes, the synchronicity of events is interesting and this occurred with the Newtown massacre. The one little girl who played
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 24, 2012
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        Hello IAM and All,

        Merry Christmas!

        Yes, the synchronicity of events
        is interesting and this occurred
        with the Newtown massacre.
        The one little girl who played
        dead while all of her classmates
        were murdered was fortunate.
        In their class picture she is exactly
        in the middle. She's in the middle
        row of the three rows and in
        the middle of that row.

        Prometheus

        iam999freedom wrote:
        I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful book I've
        just finished reading. You may have heard about the book already as it was
        written recently in 2012 and received some media attention. The name of the book
        is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben
        Alexander, MD.

        What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that before it he
        was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE cannot be explained by
        conventional scientific/medical thought. He was attacked by e-coli menningitis
        and lay in a coma for seven days completely brain dead in the areas of the brain
        whereby a NDE and consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
        recovered is also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
        there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative state is
        expected.

        It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a hold on
        this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received the book this past
        Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was so shocked and saddened that
        the core of my experiences and beliefs were being crushed.

        Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a refreshed
        look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc. I also feel
        rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.

        The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated within
        me:

        "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could conceive - but
        that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was present in all the other
        universes as well, but only in the tiniest trace amounts. Evil was necessary
        because without it free will was impossible, and without free will there could
        be no growth - no forward movement, no chance for us to become what God longed
        for us to be. Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world
        like ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it would
        ultimatlely be triumphant."

        The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific debate and
        spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and explicit fascinating
        way that evoked love and compassion.

        Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be experienced
        with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.

        I Am
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        That definitely sounds like a must read book.  Thanks for pointing it out. ... From: iam999freedom Subject:
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
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          That definitely sounds like a must read book.  Thanks for pointing it out.

          --- On Mon, 12/24/12, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

          From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, December 24, 2012, 2:50 AM

           
          I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.

          What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative state is expected.

          It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs were being crushed.

          Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc. I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.

          The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated within me:

          "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be. Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it would ultimatlely be triumphant."

          The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.

          Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.

          I Am

        • etznab18
          Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it. This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However,
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
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            "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it."

            This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29

            I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first originated and then evolved.

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
            >
            > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of individual choice."
            >
            > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
            >
            > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
            >
            > I should mention that there are many things in the book not mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only a glimpse of the Core.
            >
            > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy, compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
            >
            > I AM
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
            > >
            > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was karma ...
            > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I necessarily
            > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of karma.
            > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that it suggests
            > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
            > >
            > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about action by the
            > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the creator did
            > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the effect is
            > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby learns
            > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the action of
            > > touching fire, is instructive.
            > >
            > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
            > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had something
            > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could create
            > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that affects
            > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the people
            > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things. That they
            > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even Harold
            > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so many
            > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the idea that
            > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything that
            > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was saying there
            > > were examples where other people create things that can affect us, and
            > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible" for.
            > >
            > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for individuals to
            > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a "bad" way.
            > > History is filled with examples.
            > >
            > > ***
            > >
            > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free will" and
            > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself: "It
            > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
            > >
            > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
            > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
            > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
            > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
            > > different character than the other.
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
            > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
            > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
            > >
            > >  
            > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful
            > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book
            > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media
            > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's
            > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
            > >
            > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that
            > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE
            > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was
            > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days
            > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and
            > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is
            > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
            > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative
            > > state is expected.
            > >
            > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a
            > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received
            > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was
            > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs
            > > were being crushed.
            > >
            > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a
            > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc.
            > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.
            > >
            > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated
            > > within me:
            > >
            > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could
            > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was
            > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest
            > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was
            > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward
            > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be.
            > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like
            > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it
            > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
            > >
            > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific
            > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and
            > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
            > >
            > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be
            > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
            > >
            > > I Am
            > >
            >
          • etznab@aol.com
            A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds (what I recently found) from the following link.
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
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              A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
              (what I recently found) from the following link.

              http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf

              "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
              sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
              unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
              that there is self that is also always other and that such a
              perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
              [... .]"

              I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.

              This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
              whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.

              "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
              to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
              resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
              For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
              drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
              the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
              accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
              connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
              overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
              unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
              this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
              vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."

              It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
              that case, would anybody here care to comment?


              -----Original Message-----
              From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

               
              "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
              to experience life to enhance it."

              This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
              different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
              The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29

              I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
              originated and then evolved.

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
              <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
              creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
              >
              > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
              is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
              Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
              nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
              sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
              case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
              evil things as a matter of individual choice."
              >
              > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
              enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
              seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
              time being One(God).
              >
              > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
              order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
              enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
              identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
              it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
              "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
              >
              > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
              mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
              author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
              a glimpse of the Core.
              >
              > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
              compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
              >
              > I AM
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
              > >
              > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
              karma ...
              > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
              necessarily
              > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
              karma.
              > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
              it suggests
              > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
              > >
              > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
              action by the
              > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
              creator did
              > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
              effect is
              > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
              learns
              > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
              action of
              > > touching fire, is instructive.
              > >
              > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
              > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
              something
              > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
              create
              > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
              affects
              > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
              people
              > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
              That they
              > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
              Harold
              > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
              many
              > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
              idea that
              > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
              that
              > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
              saying there
              > > were examples where other people create things that can
              affect us, and
              > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
              for.
              > >
              > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
              individuals to
              > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
              "bad" way.
              > > History is filled with examples.
              > >
              > > ***
              > >
              > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
              will" and
              > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
              myself: "It
              > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
              > >
              > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
              when I
              > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
              that had
              > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
              the twins
              > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
              one had a
              > > different character than the other.
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
              > >
              > >  
              > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
              wonderful
              > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
              book
              > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
              media
              > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
              Neurosurgeon's
              > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
              > >
              > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
              that
              > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
              his NDE
              > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
              thought. He was
              > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
              days
              > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
              and
              > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
              recovered is
              > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
              was in
              > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
              vegetative
              > > state is expected.
              > >
              > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
              placed a
              > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
              received
              > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
              shootings I was
              > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
              beliefs
              > > were being crushed.
              > >
              > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
              now have a
              > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
              will etc.
              > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
              earth.
              > >
              > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
              resonated
              > > within me:
              > >
              > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
              could
              > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
              was
              > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
              tiniest
              > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
              will was
              > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
              no forward
              > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
              to be.
              > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
              world like
              > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
              and it
              > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
              > >
              > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
              scientific
              > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
              simple and
              > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
              > >
              > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
              can be
              > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
              > >
              > > I Am
              > >
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello All, It s all interesting mental gymnastics and circular thinking fueled by myth. When reading about lila I thought of Lillith and how God kept screwing
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello All,
                It's all interesting mental
                gymnastics and circular
                thinking fueled by myth.
                When reading about lila I
                thought of Lillith and how
                God kept screwing up in
                order to please Adam.

                http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm

                Prometheus

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                >
                > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                >
                > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                >
                > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                > [... .]"
                >
                > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                >
                > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                >
                > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                >
                > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                >
                >  
                > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                > to experience life to enhance it."
                >
                > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                >
                > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                > originated and then evolved.
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                > >
                > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                > >
                > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                > time being One(God).
                > >
                > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                > >
                > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                > a glimpse of the Core.
                > >
                > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                > >
                > > I AM
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                > karma ...
                > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                > necessarily
                > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                > karma.
                > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                > it suggests
                > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                > > >
                > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                > action by the
                > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                > creator did
                > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                > effect is
                > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                > learns
                > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                > action of
                > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                > > >
                > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                > something
                > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                > create
                > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                > affects
                > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                > people
                > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                > That they
                > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                > Harold
                > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                > many
                > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                > idea that
                > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                > that
                > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                > saying there
                > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                > affect us, and
                > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                > for.
                > > >
                > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                > individuals to
                > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                > "bad" way.
                > > > History is filled with examples.
                > > >
                > > > ***
                > > >
                > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                > will" and
                > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                > myself: "It
                > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                > > >
                > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                > when I
                > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                > that had
                > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                > the twins
                > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                > one had a
                > > > different character than the other.
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                > > >
                > > >  
                > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                > wonderful
                > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                > book
                > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                > media
                > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                > Neurosurgeon's
                > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                > > >
                > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                > that
                > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                > his NDE
                > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                > thought. He was
                > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                > days
                > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                > and
                > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                > recovered is
                > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                > was in
                > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                > vegetative
                > > > state is expected.
                > > >
                > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                > placed a
                > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                > received
                > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                > shootings I was
                > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                > beliefs
                > > > were being crushed.
                > > >
                > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                > now have a
                > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                > will etc.
                > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                > earth.
                > > >
                > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                > resonated
                > > > within me:
                > > >
                > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                > could
                > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                > was
                > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                > tiniest
                > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                > will was
                > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                > no forward
                > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                > to be.
                > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                > world like
                > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                > and it
                > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                > > >
                > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                > scientific
                > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                > simple and
                > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                > > >
                > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                > can be
                > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                > > >
                > > > I Am
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • iam999freedom
                Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no proof at all and really makes no sense. On the other hand the story of Lila I
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no proof at all and really makes no sense.

                  On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.

                  I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about being in such an apathetic state.

                  Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of love with more freedom of expression.

                  Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were created.

                  I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.

                  When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it all.

                  I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.

                  I AM


                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  > It's all interesting mental
                  > gymnastics and circular
                  > thinking fueled by myth.
                  > When reading about lila I
                  > thought of Lillith and how
                  > God kept screwing up in
                  > order to please Adam.
                  >
                  > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                  > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                  > >
                  > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                  > >
                  > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                  > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                  > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                  > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                  > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                  > > [... .]"
                  > >
                  > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                  > >
                  > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                  > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                  > >
                  > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                  > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                  > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                  > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                  > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                  > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                  > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                  > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                  > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                  > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                  > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                  > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                  > >
                  > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                  > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                  > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                  > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                  > >
                  > >  
                  > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                  > > to experience life to enhance it."
                  > >
                  > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                  > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                  > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                  > >
                  > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                  > >
                  > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                  > > originated and then evolved.
                  > >
                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                  > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                  > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                  > > >
                  > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                  > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                  > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                  > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                  > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                  > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                  > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                  > > >
                  > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                  > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                  > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                  > > time being One(God).
                  > > >
                  > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                  > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                  > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                  > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                  > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                  > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                  > > >
                  > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                  > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                  > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                  > > a glimpse of the Core.
                  > > >
                  > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                  > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                  > > >
                  > > > I AM
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                  > > karma ...
                  > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                  > > necessarily
                  > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                  > > karma.
                  > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                  > > it suggests
                  > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                  > > action by the
                  > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                  > > creator did
                  > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                  > > effect is
                  > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                  > > learns
                  > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                  > > action of
                  > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                  > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                  > > something
                  > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                  > > create
                  > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                  > > affects
                  > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                  > > people
                  > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                  > > That they
                  > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                  > > Harold
                  > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                  > > many
                  > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                  > > idea that
                  > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                  > > that
                  > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                  > > saying there
                  > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                  > > affect us, and
                  > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                  > > for.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                  > > individuals to
                  > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                  > > "bad" way.
                  > > > > History is filled with examples.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ***
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                  > > will" and
                  > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                  > > myself: "It
                  > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                  > > when I
                  > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                  > > that had
                  > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                  > > the twins
                  > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                  > > one had a
                  > > > > different character than the other.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                  > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                  > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                  > > > >
                  > > > >  
                  > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                  > > wonderful
                  > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                  > > book
                  > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                  > > media
                  > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                  > > Neurosurgeon's
                  > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                  > > that
                  > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                  > > his NDE
                  > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                  > > thought. He was
                  > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                  > > days
                  > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                  > > and
                  > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                  > > recovered is
                  > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                  > > was in
                  > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                  > > vegetative
                  > > > > state is expected.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                  > > placed a
                  > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                  > > received
                  > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                  > > shootings I was
                  > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                  > > beliefs
                  > > > > were being crushed.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                  > > now have a
                  > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                  > > will etc.
                  > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                  > > earth.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                  > > resonated
                  > > > > within me:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                  > > could
                  > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                  > > was
                  > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                  > > tiniest
                  > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                  > > will was
                  > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                  > > no forward
                  > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                  > > to be.
                  > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                  > > world like
                  > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                  > > and it
                  > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                  > > scientific
                  > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                  > > simple and
                  > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                  > > can be
                  > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I Am
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Non
                  Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God s attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then being horribly punished for their insolence.

                    I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                    Non ;)

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    > It's all interesting mental
                    > gymnastics and circular
                    > thinking fueled by myth.
                    > When reading about lila I
                    > thought of Lillith and how
                    > God kept screwing up in
                    > order to please Adam.
                    >
                    > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                    > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                    > >
                    > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                    > >
                    > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                    > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                    > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                    > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                    > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                    > > [... .]"
                    > >
                    > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                    > >
                    > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                    > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                    > >
                    > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                    > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                    > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                    > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                    > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                    > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                    > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                    > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                    > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                    > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                    > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                    > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                    > >
                    > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                    > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                    > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                    > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                    > > to experience life to enhance it."
                    > >
                    > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                    > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                    > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                    > >
                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                    > >
                    > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                    > > originated and then evolved.
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                    > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                    > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                    > > >
                    > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                    > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                    > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                    > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                    > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                    > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                    > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                    > > >
                    > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                    > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                    > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                    > > time being One(God).
                    > > >
                    > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                    > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                    > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                    > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                    > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                    > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                    > > >
                    > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                    > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                    > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                    > > a glimpse of the Core.
                    > > >
                    > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                    > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                    > > >
                    > > > I AM
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                    > > karma ...
                    > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                    > > necessarily
                    > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                    > > karma.
                    > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                    > > it suggests
                    > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                    > > action by the
                    > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                    > > creator did
                    > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                    > > effect is
                    > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                    > > learns
                    > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                    > > action of
                    > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                    > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                    > > something
                    > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                    > > create
                    > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                    > > affects
                    > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                    > > people
                    > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                    > > That they
                    > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                    > > Harold
                    > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                    > > many
                    > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                    > > idea that
                    > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                    > > that
                    > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                    > > saying there
                    > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                    > > affect us, and
                    > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                    > > for.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                    > > individuals to
                    > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                    > > "bad" way.
                    > > > > History is filled with examples.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ***
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                    > > will" and
                    > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                    > > myself: "It
                    > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                    > > when I
                    > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                    > > that had
                    > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                    > > the twins
                    > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                    > > one had a
                    > > > > different character than the other.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                    > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                    > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                    > > > >
                    > > > >  
                    > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                    > > wonderful
                    > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                    > > book
                    > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                    > > media
                    > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                    > > Neurosurgeon's
                    > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                    > > that
                    > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                    > > his NDE
                    > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                    > > thought. He was
                    > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                    > > days
                    > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                    > > and
                    > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                    > > recovered is
                    > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                    > > was in
                    > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                    > > vegetative
                    > > > > state is expected.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                    > > placed a
                    > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                    > > received
                    > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                    > > shootings I was
                    > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                    > > beliefs
                    > > > > were being crushed.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                    > > now have a
                    > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                    > > will etc.
                    > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                    > > earth.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                    > > resonated
                    > > > > within me:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                    > > could
                    > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                    > > was
                    > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                    > > tiniest
                    > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                    > > will was
                    > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                    > > no forward
                    > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                    > > to be.
                    > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                    > > world like
                    > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                    > > and it
                    > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                    > > scientific
                    > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                    > > simple and
                    > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                    > > can be
                    > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I Am
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    Too bad there wasn t someone to challenge the writers at the time of the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were eliminated for
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                      the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                      eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                      because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                      myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                      tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                      They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                      a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:

                      "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                      charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                      choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"

                      https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H82gz2n-WqA

                      Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                      name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?

                      I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                      in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                      versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                      people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                      "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                      children and teach them to believe as well.

                      As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                      (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                      within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                      of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                      their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                      where and how they even evolved.

                      ***

                      For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                      the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                      many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                      ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.

                      I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                      others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                      America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                      the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                      religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                      IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                      historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                      believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Non <eckchains@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 1:26 am
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

                       
                      Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                      God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                      for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                      to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                      variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                      complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                      being horribly punished for their insolence.

                      I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                      by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                      Non ;)

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      > It's all interesting mental
                      > gymnastics and circular
                      > thinking fueled by myth.
                      > When reading about lila I
                      > thought of Lillith and how
                      > God kept screwing up in
                      > order to please Adam.
                      >
                      > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple
                      contemplation seeds
                      > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                      > >
                      > >
                      http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                      > >
                      > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal
                      and
                      > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first
                      there was
                      > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity,
                      but rather
                      > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                      > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in
                      movement.
                      > > [... .]"
                      > >
                      > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                      > >
                      > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but
                      from that
                      > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                      > >
                      > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is
                      more akin
                      > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential
                      paradox that
                      > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage
                      place.
                      > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that
                      arises when two
                      > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and
                      controls
                      > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,”
                      play, is thus more
                      > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible
                      interdependent
                      > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that
                      neither ever
                      > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences
                      into a
                      > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of
                      structurality,
                      > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                      > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is
                      Beauty."
                      > >
                      > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt
                      only. And in
                      > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                      > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something
                      less in order
                      > > to experience life to enhance it."
                      > >
                      > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are
                      several
                      > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof
                      Capra, from
                      > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                      > >
                      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                      > >
                      > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of
                      Lila first
                      > > originated and then evolved.
                      > >
                      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                      "iam999freedom"
                      > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a
                      creator if the
                      > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                      > > >
                      > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought.
                      Maybe there
                      > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no
                      Souls and no
                      > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are
                      inherently
                      > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something
                      they
                      > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something
                      less. In this
                      > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things
                      and all
                      > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                      > > >
                      > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how
                      is life
                      > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                      > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond
                      space and
                      > > time being One(God).
                      > > >
                      > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something
                      less in
                      > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to
                      eventually
                      > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually
                      become
                      > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are
                      able to be
                      > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully
                      in the
                      > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body
                      limitations.
                      > > >
                      > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book
                      not
                      > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief.
                      Also as the
                      > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and
                      were only
                      > > a glimpse of the Core.
                      > > >
                      > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean
                      beauty, joy,
                      > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                      > > >
                      > > > I AM
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                      etznab@ wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came
                      to me was
                      > > karma ...
                      > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying
                      that I
                      > > necessarily
                      > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma
                      definitions of
                      > > karma.
                      > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and
                      believe that
                      > > it suggests
                      > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn
                      about
                      > > action by the
                      > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator
                      if the
                      > > creator did
                      > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps,
                      knowing the
                      > > effect is
                      > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is
                      that baby
                      > > learns
                      > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or
                      the
                      > > action of
                      > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are
                      responsible for
                      > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as
                      if they had
                      > > something
                      > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person
                      could
                      > > create
                      > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and
                      bombs) that
                      > > affects
                      > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily
                      believe that the
                      > > people
                      > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such
                      things.
                      > > That they
                      > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I
                      remember even
                      > > Harold
                      > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago
                      which, in so
                      > > many
                      > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination
                      and the
                      > > idea that
                      > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for
                      everything
                      > > that
                      > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression
                      Harold was
                      > > saying there
                      > > > > were examples where other people create things that
                      can
                      > > affect us, and
                      > > > > that they are things we are not each personally
                      "responsible"
                      > > for.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows
                      for
                      > > individuals to
                      > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other
                      people in a
                      > > "bad" way.
                      > > > > History is filled with examples.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ***
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote
                      about "free
                      > > will" and
                      > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say
                      to
                      > > myself: "It
                      > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In
                      the morning
                      > > when I
                      > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about
                      conjoined twins
                      > > that had
                      > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to
                      describe
                      > > the twins
                      > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many
                      words)
                      > > one had a
                      > > > > different character than the other.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                      > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                      > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT
                      LOVE
                      > > > >
                      > > > >  
                      > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested
                      about a
                      > > wonderful
                      > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard
                      about the
                      > > book
                      > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and
                      received some
                      > > media
                      > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of
                      Heaven: A
                      > > Neurosurgeon's
                      > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so
                      interesting is
                      > > that
                      > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the
                      validity of
                      > > his NDE
                      > > > > cannot be explained by conventional
                      scientific/medical
                      > > thought. He was
                      > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma
                      for seven
                      > > days
                      > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain
                      whereby a NDE
                      > > and
                      > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he
                      completely
                      > > recovered is
                      > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the
                      condition he
                      > > was in
                      > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival
                      living in a
                      > > vegetative
                      > > > > state is expected.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in
                      synchronicity. I
                      > > placed a
                      > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago
                      and just
                      > > received
                      > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the
                      Newtown
                      > > shootings I was
                      > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my
                      experiences and
                      > > beliefs
                      > > > > were being crushed.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what
                      happened I
                      > > now have a
                      > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love),
                      evil, free
                      > > will etc.
                      > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my
                      life on
                      > > earth.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I
                      found richly
                      > > resonated
                      > > > > within me:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more
                      than I
                      > > could
                      > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them
                      all. Evil
                      > > was
                      > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but
                      only in the
                      > > tiniest
                      > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without
                      it free
                      > > will was
                      > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no
                      growth -
                      > > no forward
                      > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God
                      longed for us
                      > > to be.
                      > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to
                      be in a
                      > > world like
                      > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly
                      dominant,
                      > > and it
                      > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other
                      worlds,
                      > > scientific
                      > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in
                      both a
                      > > simple and
                      > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and
                      compassion.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such
                      worlds/states
                      > > can be
                      > > > > experienced with persistence
                      meditative/comptemplative effort.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I Am
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • iam999freedom
                      Laughing so much aabout your post! Thanks, I needed that! I AM
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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                        Laughing so much aabout your post! Thanks, I needed that!

                        I AM

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" <eckchains@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then being horribly punished for their insolence.
                        >
                        > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                        >
                        > Non ;)
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello All,
                        > > It's all interesting mental
                        > > gymnastics and circular
                        > > thinking fueled by myth.
                        > > When reading about lila I
                        > > thought of Lillith and how
                        > > God kept screwing up in
                        > > order to please Adam.
                        > >
                        > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                        > > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                        > > >
                        > > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                        > > >
                        > > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                        > > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                        > > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                        > > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                        > > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                        > > > [... .]"
                        > > >
                        > > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                        > > >
                        > > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                        > > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                        > > >
                        > > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                        > > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                        > > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                        > > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                        > > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                        > > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                        > > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                        > > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                        > > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                        > > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                        > > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                        > > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                        > > >
                        > > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                        > > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                        > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        > > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                        > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                        > > >
                        > > >  
                        > > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                        > > > to experience life to enhance it."
                        > > >
                        > > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                        > > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                        > > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                        > > >
                        > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                        > > >
                        > > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                        > > > originated and then evolved.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                        > > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                        > > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                        > > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                        > > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                        > > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                        > > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                        > > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                        > > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                        > > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                        > > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                        > > > time being One(God).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                        > > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                        > > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                        > > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                        > > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                        > > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                        > > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                        > > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                        > > > a glimpse of the Core.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                        > > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I AM
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                        > > > karma ...
                        > > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                        > > > necessarily
                        > > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                        > > > karma.
                        > > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                        > > > it suggests
                        > > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                        > > > action by the
                        > > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                        > > > creator did
                        > > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                        > > > effect is
                        > > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                        > > > learns
                        > > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                        > > > action of
                        > > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                        > > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                        > > > something
                        > > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                        > > > create
                        > > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                        > > > affects
                        > > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                        > > > people
                        > > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                        > > > That they
                        > > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                        > > > Harold
                        > > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                        > > > many
                        > > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                        > > > idea that
                        > > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                        > > > that
                        > > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                        > > > saying there
                        > > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                        > > > affect us, and
                        > > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                        > > > for.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                        > > > individuals to
                        > > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                        > > > "bad" way.
                        > > > > > History is filled with examples.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ***
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                        > > > will" and
                        > > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                        > > > myself: "It
                        > > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                        > > > when I
                        > > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                        > > > that had
                        > > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                        > > > the twins
                        > > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                        > > > one had a
                        > > > > > different character than the other.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                        > > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        > > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                        > > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >  
                        > > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                        > > > wonderful
                        > > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                        > > > book
                        > > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                        > > > media
                        > > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                        > > > Neurosurgeon's
                        > > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                        > > > that
                        > > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                        > > > his NDE
                        > > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                        > > > thought. He was
                        > > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                        > > > days
                        > > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                        > > > and
                        > > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                        > > > recovered is
                        > > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                        > > > was in
                        > > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                        > > > vegetative
                        > > > > > state is expected.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                        > > > placed a
                        > > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                        > > > received
                        > > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                        > > > shootings I was
                        > > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                        > > > beliefs
                        > > > > > were being crushed.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                        > > > now have a
                        > > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                        > > > will etc.
                        > > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                        > > > earth.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                        > > > resonated
                        > > > > > within me:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                        > > > could
                        > > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                        > > > was
                        > > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                        > > > tiniest
                        > > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                        > > > will was
                        > > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                        > > > no forward
                        > > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                        > > > to be.
                        > > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                        > > > world like
                        > > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                        > > > and it
                        > > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                        > > > scientific
                        > > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                        > > > simple and
                        > > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                        > > > can be
                        > > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I Am
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello I AM and All, Yes, religion doesn t allow people to have their own unique experiences with Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc. And, there s always some expert
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
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                          Hello I AM and All,
                          Yes, religion doesn't allow
                          people to have their own
                          unique experiences with
                          Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc.
                          And, there's always some
                          expert to redirect a person
                          into their own niche when
                          each should explore their
                          own path but unite on the
                          inner realms of the same,
                          elusive, invisible Real.

                          Prometheus

                          I AM wrote:
                          Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no
                          proof at all and really makes no sense.

                          On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced
                          or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that
                          everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into
                          multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.

                          I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very
                          clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were
                          souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely
                          one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot
                          of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite
                          dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and
                          this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about
                          being in such an apathetic state.

                          Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases
                          thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were
                          quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least
                          they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the
                          souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds
                          seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well
                          because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured
                          that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of
                          love with more freedom of expression.

                          Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the
                          early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were
                          created.

                          I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life
                          beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings
                          from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to
                          instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the
                          time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that
                          dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.

                          When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot
                          of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but
                          certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I
                          tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with
                          me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it
                          all.

                          I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first
                          place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to
                          perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.

                          I AM


                          prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          > It's all interesting mental
                          > gymnastics and circular
                          > thinking fueled by myth.
                          > When reading about lila I
                          > thought of Lillith and how
                          > God kept screwing up in
                          > order to please Adam.
                          >
                          http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                        • iam999freedom
                          Thanks for your comments Prometheus; they were meaningful to me. I d like to share a link for those who may enjoy beautiful, interesting photos in the world
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks for your comments Prometheus; they were meaningful to me.

                            I'd like to share a link for those who may enjoy beautiful, interesting photos in the world about nature, people, things, etc. There's 500 new photos that automatically refresh every day so it never gets boring. I usually quickly browse through about 50-100 a day which only takes about 5-10 minutes. I find that it helps me appreciate the wonderful aspects of this world which can easily be lost amidst a lot of the negativity. If you choose to check it out it is:

                            http://www.flickriver.com/explore/interesting/24hours/


                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello I AM and All,
                            > Yes, religion doesn't allow
                            > people to have their own
                            > unique experiences with
                            > Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc.
                            > And, there's always some
                            > expert to redirect a person
                            > into their own niche when
                            > each should explore their
                            > own path but unite on the
                            > inner realms of the same,
                            > elusive, invisible Real.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > I AM wrote:
                            > Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no
                            > proof at all and really makes no sense.
                            >
                            > On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced
                            > or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that
                            > everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into
                            > multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.
                            >
                            > I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very
                            > clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were
                            > souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely
                            > one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot
                            > of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite
                            > dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and
                            > this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about
                            > being in such an apathetic state.
                            >
                            > Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases
                            > thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were
                            > quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least
                            > they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the
                            > souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds
                            > seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well
                            > because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured
                            > that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of
                            > love with more freedom of expression.
                            >
                            > Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the
                            > early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were
                            > created.
                            >
                            > I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life
                            > beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings
                            > from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to
                            > instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the
                            > time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that
                            > dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.
                            >
                            > When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot
                            > of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but
                            > certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I
                            > tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with
                            > me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it
                            > all.
                            >
                            > I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first
                            > place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to
                            > perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.
                            >
                            > I AM
                            >
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello All,
                            > > It's all interesting mental
                            > > gymnastics and circular
                            > > thinking fueled by myth.
                            > > When reading about lila I
                            > > thought of Lillith and how
                            > > God kept screwing up in
                            > > order to please Adam.
                            > >
                            > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Etznab and All, Yes, the gospel here: http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm had a very warped way of viewing women as well. I had read, elsewhere, that Lilith was
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
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                              Hello Etznab and All,
                              Yes, the gospel here:
                              http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                              had a very warped way
                              of viewing women as
                              well. I had read, elsewhere,
                              that Lilith was created
                              in the same way as Adam
                              and was his equal, but
                              she didn't want to stay
                              with Adam, she was more
                              spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                              a tool, was domineering
                              and only wanted sex.
                              Thus, Lilith asked God
                              if she could be with
                              him in Heaven and this
                              was granted. Therefore,
                              Lilith was not a demon
                              and evil but was actually
                              very spiritual.

                              The HBO series "True Blood"
                              has a different take on Lilith.
                              She was the first Vampire and
                              God's first, perfect, creation.

                              Prometheus

                              etznab wrote:
                              Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                              the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                              eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                              because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                              myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                              tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                              They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                              a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:

                              "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                              charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                              choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"

                              https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                              !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                              82gz2n-WqA

                              Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                              name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?

                              I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                              in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                              versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                              people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                              "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                              children and teach them to believe as well.

                              As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                              (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                              within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                              of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                              their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                              where and how they even evolved.

                              ***

                              For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                              the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                              many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                              ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.

                              I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                              others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                              America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                              the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                              religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                              IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                              historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                              believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.



                              Non wrote:
                              Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                              God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                              for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                              to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                              variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                              complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                              being horribly punished for their insolence.

                              I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                              by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                              Non ;)


                              <prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello All,
                              > It's all interesting mental
                              > gymnastics and circular
                              > thinking fueled by myth.
                              > When reading about lila I
                              > thought of Lillith and how
                              > God kept screwing up in
                              > order to please Adam.
                              >
                              http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                            • iam999freedom
                              The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure). The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).

                                The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.

                                The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.

                                It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Etznab and All,
                                > Yes, the gospel here:
                                > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                > had a very warped way
                                > of viewing women as
                                > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                > that Lilith was created
                                > in the same way as Adam
                                > and was his equal, but
                                > she didn't want to stay
                                > with Adam, she was more
                                > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                > a tool, was domineering
                                > and only wanted sex.
                                > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                > if she could be with
                                > him in Heaven and this
                                > was granted. Therefore,
                                > Lilith was not a demon
                                > and evil but was actually
                                > very spiritual.
                                >
                                > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                > has a different take on Lilith.
                                > She was the first Vampire and
                                > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                > etznab wrote:
                                > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                >
                                > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                >
                                > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                > 82gz2n-WqA
                                >
                                > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                >
                                > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                >
                                > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                > where and how they even evolved.
                                >
                                > ***
                                >
                                > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                >
                                > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Non wrote:
                                > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                >
                                > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                >
                                > Non ;)
                                >
                                >
                                > <prometheus wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello All,
                                > > It's all interesting mental
                                > > gymnastics and circular
                                > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                > > When reading about lila I
                                > > thought of Lillith and how
                                > > God kept screwing up in
                                > > order to please Adam.
                                > >
                                > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                >
                              • etznab18
                                Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I ve never known this to happen so much as in the last
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 30, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                                  >
                                  > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                                  >
                                  > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                                  >
                                  > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                                  >
                                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                  > > Yes, the gospel here:
                                  > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                  > > had a very warped way
                                  > > of viewing women as
                                  > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                  > > that Lilith was created
                                  > > in the same way as Adam
                                  > > and was his equal, but
                                  > > she didn't want to stay
                                  > > with Adam, she was more
                                  > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                  > > a tool, was domineering
                                  > > and only wanted sex.
                                  > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                  > > if she could be with
                                  > > him in Heaven and this
                                  > > was granted. Therefore,
                                  > > Lilith was not a demon
                                  > > and evil but was actually
                                  > > very spiritual.
                                  > >
                                  > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                  > > has a different take on Lilith.
                                  > > She was the first Vampire and
                                  > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  > >
                                  > > etznab wrote:
                                  > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                  > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                  > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                  > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                  > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                  > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                  > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                  > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                  > >
                                  > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                  > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                  > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                  > >
                                  > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                  > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                  > > 82gz2n-WqA
                                  > >
                                  > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                  > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                  > >
                                  > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                  > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                  > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                  > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                  > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                  > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                  > >
                                  > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                  > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                  > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                  > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                  > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                  > > where and how they even evolved.
                                  > >
                                  > > ***
                                  > >
                                  > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                  > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                  > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                  > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                  > >
                                  > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                  > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                  > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                  > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                  > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                  > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                  > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                  > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Non wrote:
                                  > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                  > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                  > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                  > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                  > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                  > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                  > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                  > >
                                  > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                  > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                  > >
                                  > > Non ;)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > <prometheus wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hello All,
                                  > > > It's all interesting mental
                                  > > > gymnastics and circular
                                  > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                  > > > When reading about lila I
                                  > > > thought of Lillith and how
                                  > > > God kept screwing up in
                                  > > > order to please Adam.
                                  > > >
                                  > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • iam999freedom
                                  Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking). Anyway, happy New Year to you and All! Cheers, I AM
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 2, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking).

                                    Anyway, happy New Year to you and All!

                                    Cheers,
                                    I AM

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!
                                    >
                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                                    > >
                                    > > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                                    > >
                                    > > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                                    > >
                                    > > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                    > > > Yes, the gospel here:
                                    > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                    > > > had a very warped way
                                    > > > of viewing women as
                                    > > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                    > > > that Lilith was created
                                    > > > in the same way as Adam
                                    > > > and was his equal, but
                                    > > > she didn't want to stay
                                    > > > with Adam, she was more
                                    > > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                    > > > a tool, was domineering
                                    > > > and only wanted sex.
                                    > > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                    > > > if she could be with
                                    > > > him in Heaven and this
                                    > > > was granted. Therefore,
                                    > > > Lilith was not a demon
                                    > > > and evil but was actually
                                    > > > very spiritual.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                    > > > has a different take on Lilith.
                                    > > > She was the first Vampire and
                                    > > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Prometheus
                                    > > >
                                    > > > etznab wrote:
                                    > > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                    > > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                    > > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                    > > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                    > > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                    > > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                    > > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                    > > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                    > > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                    > > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                    > > >
                                    > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                    > > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                    > > > 82gz2n-WqA
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                    > > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                    > > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                    > > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                    > > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                    > > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                    > > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                    > > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                    > > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                    > > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                    > > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                    > > > where and how they even evolved.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ***
                                    > > >
                                    > > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                    > > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                    > > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                    > > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                    > > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                    > > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                    > > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                    > > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                    > > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                    > > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                    > > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Non wrote:
                                    > > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                    > > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                    > > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                    > > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                    > > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                    > > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                    > > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                    > > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Non ;)
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > <prometheus wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Hello All,
                                    > > > > It's all interesting mental
                                    > > > > gymnastics and circular
                                    > > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                    > > > > When reading about lila I
                                    > > > > thought of Lillith and how
                                    > > > > God kept screwing up in
                                    > > > > order to please Adam.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • etznab18
                                    I ve never had so much trouble with a news server than with Yahoo. Just found out my account has been bouncing emails again (which means I don t get the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 10, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I've never had so much trouble with a news server than with Yahoo. Just found out my account has been bouncing emails again (which means I don't get the messages) since December 30th.

                                      Now I have to go back and read about two weeks of posts.

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking).
                                      >
                                      > Anyway, happy New Year to you and All!
                                      >
                                      > Cheers,
                                      > I AM
                                      >
                                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                      > > > > Yes, the gospel here:
                                      > > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                      > > > > had a very warped way
                                      > > > > of viewing women as
                                      > > > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                      > > > > that Lilith was created
                                      > > > > in the same way as Adam
                                      > > > > and was his equal, but
                                      > > > > she didn't want to stay
                                      > > > > with Adam, she was more
                                      > > > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                      > > > > a tool, was domineering
                                      > > > > and only wanted sex.
                                      > > > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                      > > > > if she could be with
                                      > > > > him in Heaven and this
                                      > > > > was granted. Therefore,
                                      > > > > Lilith was not a demon
                                      > > > > and evil but was actually
                                      > > > > very spiritual.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                      > > > > has a different take on Lilith.
                                      > > > > She was the first Vampire and
                                      > > > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Prometheus
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > etznab wrote:
                                      > > > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                      > > > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                      > > > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                      > > > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                      > > > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                      > > > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                      > > > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                      > > > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                      > > > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                      > > > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                      > > > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                      > > > > 82gz2n-WqA
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                      > > > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                      > > > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                      > > > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                      > > > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                      > > > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                      > > > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                      > > > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                      > > > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                      > > > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                      > > > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                      > > > > where and how they even evolved.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ***
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                      > > > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                      > > > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                      > > > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                      > > > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                      > > > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                      > > > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                      > > > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                      > > > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                      > > > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                      > > > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Non wrote:
                                      > > > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                      > > > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                      > > > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                      > > > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                      > > > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                      > > > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                      > > > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                      > > > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Non ;)
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > > Hello All,
                                      > > > > > It's all interesting mental
                                      > > > > > gymnastics and circular
                                      > > > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                      > > > > > When reading about lila I
                                      > > > > > thought of Lillith and how
                                      > > > > > God kept screwing up in
                                      > > > > > order to please Adam.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
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