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Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

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  • iam999freedom
    I don t know what HK said about free will and genes as I left Eckankar years ago and don t have a liftetime membership. Maybe something original? If you
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 24, 2012
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      I don't know what HK said about "free will" and genes as I left Eckankar years ago and don't have a liftetime membership. Maybe something original? If you could send a summary about it to ESA it would be appreciated as then I could tie it into what you said about the conjoined twins.

      In your post (below) I don't think I understand the significance of what you are expressing. Could you explain?

      I AM

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
      >
      > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was karma ...
      > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I necessarily
      > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of karma.
      > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that it suggests
      > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
      >
      > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about action by the
      > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the creator did
      > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the effect is
      > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby learns
      > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the action of
      > touching fire, is instructive.
      >
      > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
      > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had something
      > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could create
      > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that affects
      > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the people
      > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things. That they
      > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even Harold
      > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so many
      > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the idea that
      > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything that
      > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was saying there
      > were examples where other people create things that can affect us, and
      > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible" for.
      >
      > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for individuals to
      > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a "bad" way.
      > History is filled with examples.
      >
      > ***
      >
      > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free will" and
      > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself: "It
      > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
      >
      > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
      > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
      > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
      > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
      > different character than the other.
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
      >
      >  
      > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful
      > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book
      > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media
      > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's
      > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
      >
      > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that
      > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE
      > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was
      > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days
      > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and
      > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is
      > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
      > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative
      > state is expected.
      >
      > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a
      > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received
      > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was
      > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs
      > were being crushed.
      >
      > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a
      > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc.
      > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.
      >
      > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated
      > within me:
      >
      > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could
      > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was
      > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest
      > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was
      > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward
      > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be.
      > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like
      > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it
      > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
      >
      > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific
      > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and
      > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
      >
      > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be
      > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
      >
      > I Am
      >
    • iam999freedom
      Hi Etznab, You wrote, What would creation be for a creator if the creator did not know the effect of a creation? In a previous post you wrote, Here s
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 24, 2012
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        Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the creator did not know the effect of a creation?"

        In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of individual choice."

        In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).

        Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.

        I should mention that there are many things in the book not mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only a glimpse of the Core.

        Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy, compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.

        I AM



        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
        >
        > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was karma ...
        > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I necessarily
        > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of karma.
        > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that it suggests
        > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
        >
        > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about action by the
        > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the creator did
        > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the effect is
        > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby learns
        > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the action of
        > touching fire, is instructive.
        >
        > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
        > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had something
        > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could create
        > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that affects
        > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the people
        > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things. That they
        > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even Harold
        > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so many
        > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the idea that
        > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything that
        > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was saying there
        > were examples where other people create things that can affect us, and
        > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible" for.
        >
        > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for individuals to
        > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a "bad" way.
        > History is filled with examples.
        >
        > ***
        >
        > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free will" and
        > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself: "It
        > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
        >
        > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
        > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
        > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
        > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
        > different character than the other.
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
        >
        >  
        > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful
        > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book
        > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media
        > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's
        > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
        >
        > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that
        > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE
        > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was
        > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days
        > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and
        > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is
        > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
        > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative
        > state is expected.
        >
        > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a
        > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received
        > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was
        > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs
        > were being crushed.
        >
        > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a
        > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc.
        > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.
        >
        > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated
        > within me:
        >
        > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could
        > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was
        > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest
        > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was
        > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward
        > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be.
        > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like
        > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it
        > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
        >
        > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific
        > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and
        > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
        >
        > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be
        > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
        >
        > I Am
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello IAM and All, Merry Christmas! Yes, the synchronicity of events is interesting and this occurred with the Newtown massacre. The one little girl who played
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 24, 2012
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          Hello IAM and All,

          Merry Christmas!

          Yes, the synchronicity of events
          is interesting and this occurred
          with the Newtown massacre.
          The one little girl who played
          dead while all of her classmates
          were murdered was fortunate.
          In their class picture she is exactly
          in the middle. She's in the middle
          row of the three rows and in
          the middle of that row.

          Prometheus

          iam999freedom wrote:
          I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful book I've
          just finished reading. You may have heard about the book already as it was
          written recently in 2012 and received some media attention. The name of the book
          is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben
          Alexander, MD.

          What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that before it he
          was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE cannot be explained by
          conventional scientific/medical thought. He was attacked by e-coli menningitis
          and lay in a coma for seven days completely brain dead in the areas of the brain
          whereby a NDE and consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
          recovered is also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
          there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative state is
          expected.

          It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a hold on
          this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received the book this past
          Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was so shocked and saddened that
          the core of my experiences and beliefs were being crushed.

          Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a refreshed
          look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc. I also feel
          rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.

          The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated within
          me:

          "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could conceive - but
          that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was present in all the other
          universes as well, but only in the tiniest trace amounts. Evil was necessary
          because without it free will was impossible, and without free will there could
          be no growth - no forward movement, no chance for us to become what God longed
          for us to be. Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world
          like ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it would
          ultimatlely be triumphant."

          The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific debate and
          spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and explicit fascinating
          way that evoked love and compassion.

          Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be experienced
          with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.

          I Am
        • Janice Pfeiffer
          That definitely sounds like a must read book.  Thanks for pointing it out. ... From: iam999freedom Subject:
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
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            That definitely sounds like a must read book.  Thanks for pointing it out.

            --- On Mon, 12/24/12, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

            From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, December 24, 2012, 2:50 AM

             
            I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.

            What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative state is expected.

            It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs were being crushed.

            Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc. I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.

            The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated within me:

            "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be. Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it would ultimatlely be triumphant."

            The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.

            Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.

            I Am

          • etznab18
            Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it. This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However,
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
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              "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it."

              This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29

              I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first originated and then evolved.

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
              >
              > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of individual choice."
              >
              > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
              >
              > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
              >
              > I should mention that there are many things in the book not mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only a glimpse of the Core.
              >
              > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy, compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
              >
              > I AM
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
              > >
              > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was karma ...
              > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I necessarily
              > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of karma.
              > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that it suggests
              > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
              > >
              > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about action by the
              > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the creator did
              > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the effect is
              > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby learns
              > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the action of
              > > touching fire, is instructive.
              > >
              > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
              > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had something
              > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could create
              > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that affects
              > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the people
              > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things. That they
              > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even Harold
              > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so many
              > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the idea that
              > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything that
              > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was saying there
              > > were examples where other people create things that can affect us, and
              > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible" for.
              > >
              > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for individuals to
              > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a "bad" way.
              > > History is filled with examples.
              > >
              > > ***
              > >
              > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free will" and
              > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself: "It
              > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
              > >
              > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
              > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
              > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
              > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
              > > different character than the other.
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
              > >
              > >  
              > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful
              > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book
              > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media
              > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's
              > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
              > >
              > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that
              > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE
              > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was
              > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days
              > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and
              > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is
              > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
              > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative
              > > state is expected.
              > >
              > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a
              > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received
              > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was
              > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs
              > > were being crushed.
              > >
              > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a
              > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc.
              > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.
              > >
              > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated
              > > within me:
              > >
              > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could
              > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was
              > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest
              > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was
              > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward
              > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be.
              > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like
              > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it
              > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
              > >
              > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific
              > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and
              > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
              > >
              > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be
              > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
              > >
              > > I Am
              > >
              >
            • etznab@aol.com
              A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds (what I recently found) from the following link.
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
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                A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                (what I recently found) from the following link.

                http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf

                "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                [... .]"

                I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.

                This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.

                "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."

                It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                that case, would anybody here care to comment?


                -----Original Message-----
                From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

                 
                "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                to experience life to enhance it."

                This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29

                I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                originated and then evolved.

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                >
                > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                >
                > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                time being One(God).
                >
                > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                >
                > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                a glimpse of the Core.
                >
                > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                >
                > I AM
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                > >
                > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                karma ...
                > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                necessarily
                > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                karma.
                > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                it suggests
                > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                > >
                > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                action by the
                > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                creator did
                > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                effect is
                > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                learns
                > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                action of
                > > touching fire, is instructive.
                > >
                > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                something
                > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                create
                > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                affects
                > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                people
                > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                That they
                > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                Harold
                > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                many
                > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                idea that
                > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                that
                > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                saying there
                > > were examples where other people create things that can
                affect us, and
                > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                for.
                > >
                > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                individuals to
                > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                "bad" way.
                > > History is filled with examples.
                > >
                > > ***
                > >
                > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                will" and
                > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                myself: "It
                > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                > >
                > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                when I
                > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                that had
                > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                the twins
                > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                one had a
                > > different character than the other.
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                > >
                > >  
                > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                wonderful
                > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                book
                > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                media
                > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                Neurosurgeon's
                > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                > >
                > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                that
                > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                his NDE
                > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                thought. He was
                > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                days
                > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                and
                > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                recovered is
                > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                was in
                > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                vegetative
                > > state is expected.
                > >
                > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                placed a
                > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                received
                > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                shootings I was
                > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                beliefs
                > > were being crushed.
                > >
                > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                now have a
                > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                will etc.
                > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                earth.
                > >
                > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                resonated
                > > within me:
                > >
                > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                could
                > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                was
                > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                tiniest
                > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                will was
                > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                no forward
                > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                to be.
                > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                world like
                > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                and it
                > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                > >
                > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                scientific
                > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                simple and
                > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                > >
                > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                can be
                > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                > >
                > > I Am
                > >
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, It s all interesting mental gymnastics and circular thinking fueled by myth. When reading about lila I thought of Lillith and how God kept screwing
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello All,
                  It's all interesting mental
                  gymnastics and circular
                  thinking fueled by myth.
                  When reading about lila I
                  thought of Lillith and how
                  God kept screwing up in
                  order to please Adam.

                  http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm

                  Prometheus

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                  >
                  > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                  > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                  >
                  > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                  >
                  > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                  > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                  > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                  > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                  > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                  > [... .]"
                  >
                  > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                  >
                  > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                  > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                  >
                  > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                  > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                  > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                  > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                  > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                  > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                  > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                  > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                  > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                  > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                  > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                  > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                  >
                  > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                  > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                  >
                  >  
                  > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                  > to experience life to enhance it."
                  >
                  > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                  > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                  > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                  >
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                  >
                  > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                  > originated and then evolved.
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                  > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                  > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                  > >
                  > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                  > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                  > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                  > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                  > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                  > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                  > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                  > >
                  > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                  > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                  > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                  > time being One(God).
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                  > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                  > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                  > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                  > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                  > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                  > >
                  > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                  > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                  > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                  > a glimpse of the Core.
                  > >
                  > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                  > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                  > >
                  > > I AM
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                  > karma ...
                  > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                  > necessarily
                  > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                  > karma.
                  > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                  > it suggests
                  > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                  > > >
                  > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                  > action by the
                  > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                  > creator did
                  > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                  > effect is
                  > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                  > learns
                  > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                  > action of
                  > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                  > > >
                  > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                  > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                  > something
                  > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                  > create
                  > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                  > affects
                  > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                  > people
                  > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                  > That they
                  > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                  > Harold
                  > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                  > many
                  > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                  > idea that
                  > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                  > that
                  > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                  > saying there
                  > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                  > affect us, and
                  > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                  > for.
                  > > >
                  > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                  > individuals to
                  > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                  > "bad" way.
                  > > > History is filled with examples.
                  > > >
                  > > > ***
                  > > >
                  > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                  > will" and
                  > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                  > myself: "It
                  > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                  > > >
                  > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                  > when I
                  > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                  > that had
                  > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                  > the twins
                  > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                  > one had a
                  > > > different character than the other.
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                  > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                  > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                  > > >
                  > > >  
                  > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                  > wonderful
                  > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                  > book
                  > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                  > media
                  > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                  > Neurosurgeon's
                  > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                  > > >
                  > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                  > that
                  > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                  > his NDE
                  > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                  > thought. He was
                  > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                  > days
                  > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                  > and
                  > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                  > recovered is
                  > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                  > was in
                  > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                  > vegetative
                  > > > state is expected.
                  > > >
                  > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                  > placed a
                  > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                  > received
                  > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                  > shootings I was
                  > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                  > beliefs
                  > > > were being crushed.
                  > > >
                  > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                  > now have a
                  > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                  > will etc.
                  > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                  > earth.
                  > > >
                  > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                  > resonated
                  > > > within me:
                  > > >
                  > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                  > could
                  > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                  > was
                  > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                  > tiniest
                  > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                  > will was
                  > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                  > no forward
                  > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                  > to be.
                  > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                  > world like
                  > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                  > and it
                  > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                  > > >
                  > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                  > scientific
                  > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                  > simple and
                  > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                  > > >
                  > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                  > can be
                  > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                  > > >
                  > > > I Am
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • iam999freedom
                  Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no proof at all and really makes no sense. On the other hand the story of Lila I
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no proof at all and really makes no sense.

                    On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.

                    I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about being in such an apathetic state.

                    Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of love with more freedom of expression.

                    Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were created.

                    I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.

                    When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it all.

                    I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.

                    I AM


                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    > It's all interesting mental
                    > gymnastics and circular
                    > thinking fueled by myth.
                    > When reading about lila I
                    > thought of Lillith and how
                    > God kept screwing up in
                    > order to please Adam.
                    >
                    > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                    > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                    > >
                    > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                    > >
                    > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                    > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                    > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                    > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                    > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                    > > [... .]"
                    > >
                    > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                    > >
                    > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                    > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                    > >
                    > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                    > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                    > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                    > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                    > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                    > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                    > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                    > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                    > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                    > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                    > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                    > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                    > >
                    > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                    > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                    > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                    > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                    > > to experience life to enhance it."
                    > >
                    > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                    > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                    > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                    > >
                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                    > >
                    > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                    > > originated and then evolved.
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                    > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                    > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                    > > >
                    > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                    > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                    > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                    > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                    > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                    > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                    > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                    > > >
                    > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                    > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                    > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                    > > time being One(God).
                    > > >
                    > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                    > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                    > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                    > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                    > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                    > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                    > > >
                    > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                    > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                    > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                    > > a glimpse of the Core.
                    > > >
                    > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                    > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                    > > >
                    > > > I AM
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                    > > karma ...
                    > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                    > > necessarily
                    > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                    > > karma.
                    > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                    > > it suggests
                    > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                    > > action by the
                    > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                    > > creator did
                    > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                    > > effect is
                    > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                    > > learns
                    > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                    > > action of
                    > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                    > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                    > > something
                    > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                    > > create
                    > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                    > > affects
                    > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                    > > people
                    > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                    > > That they
                    > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                    > > Harold
                    > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                    > > many
                    > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                    > > idea that
                    > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                    > > that
                    > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                    > > saying there
                    > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                    > > affect us, and
                    > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                    > > for.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                    > > individuals to
                    > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                    > > "bad" way.
                    > > > > History is filled with examples.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ***
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                    > > will" and
                    > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                    > > myself: "It
                    > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                    > > when I
                    > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                    > > that had
                    > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                    > > the twins
                    > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                    > > one had a
                    > > > > different character than the other.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                    > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                    > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                    > > > >
                    > > > >  
                    > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                    > > wonderful
                    > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                    > > book
                    > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                    > > media
                    > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                    > > Neurosurgeon's
                    > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                    > > that
                    > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                    > > his NDE
                    > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                    > > thought. He was
                    > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                    > > days
                    > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                    > > and
                    > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                    > > recovered is
                    > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                    > > was in
                    > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                    > > vegetative
                    > > > > state is expected.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                    > > placed a
                    > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                    > > received
                    > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                    > > shootings I was
                    > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                    > > beliefs
                    > > > > were being crushed.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                    > > now have a
                    > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                    > > will etc.
                    > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                    > > earth.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                    > > resonated
                    > > > > within me:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                    > > could
                    > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                    > > was
                    > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                    > > tiniest
                    > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                    > > will was
                    > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                    > > no forward
                    > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                    > > to be.
                    > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                    > > world like
                    > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                    > > and it
                    > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                    > > scientific
                    > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                    > > simple and
                    > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                    > > can be
                    > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I Am
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Non
                    Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God s attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then being horribly punished for their insolence.

                      I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                      Non ;)

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      > It's all interesting mental
                      > gymnastics and circular
                      > thinking fueled by myth.
                      > When reading about lila I
                      > thought of Lillith and how
                      > God kept screwing up in
                      > order to please Adam.
                      >
                      > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                      > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                      > >
                      > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                      > >
                      > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                      > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                      > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                      > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                      > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                      > > [... .]"
                      > >
                      > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                      > >
                      > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                      > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                      > >
                      > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                      > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                      > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                      > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                      > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                      > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                      > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                      > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                      > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                      > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                      > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                      > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                      > >
                      > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                      > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                      > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                      > > to experience life to enhance it."
                      > >
                      > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                      > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                      > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                      > >
                      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                      > >
                      > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                      > > originated and then evolved.
                      > >
                      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                      > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                      > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                      > > >
                      > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                      > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                      > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                      > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                      > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                      > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                      > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                      > > >
                      > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                      > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                      > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                      > > time being One(God).
                      > > >
                      > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                      > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                      > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                      > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                      > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                      > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                      > > >
                      > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                      > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                      > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                      > > a glimpse of the Core.
                      > > >
                      > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                      > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                      > > >
                      > > > I AM
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                      > > karma ...
                      > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                      > > necessarily
                      > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                      > > karma.
                      > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                      > > it suggests
                      > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                      > > action by the
                      > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                      > > creator did
                      > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                      > > effect is
                      > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                      > > learns
                      > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                      > > action of
                      > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                      > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                      > > something
                      > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                      > > create
                      > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                      > > affects
                      > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                      > > people
                      > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                      > > That they
                      > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                      > > Harold
                      > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                      > > many
                      > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                      > > idea that
                      > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                      > > that
                      > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                      > > saying there
                      > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                      > > affect us, and
                      > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                      > > for.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                      > > individuals to
                      > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                      > > "bad" way.
                      > > > > History is filled with examples.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ***
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                      > > will" and
                      > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                      > > myself: "It
                      > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                      > > when I
                      > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                      > > that had
                      > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                      > > the twins
                      > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                      > > one had a
                      > > > > different character than the other.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                      > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                      > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                      > > > >
                      > > > >  
                      > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                      > > wonderful
                      > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                      > > book
                      > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                      > > media
                      > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                      > > Neurosurgeon's
                      > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                      > > that
                      > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                      > > his NDE
                      > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                      > > thought. He was
                      > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                      > > days
                      > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                      > > and
                      > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                      > > recovered is
                      > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                      > > was in
                      > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                      > > vegetative
                      > > > > state is expected.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                      > > placed a
                      > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                      > > received
                      > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                      > > shootings I was
                      > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                      > > beliefs
                      > > > > were being crushed.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                      > > now have a
                      > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                      > > will etc.
                      > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                      > > earth.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                      > > resonated
                      > > > > within me:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                      > > could
                      > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                      > > was
                      > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                      > > tiniest
                      > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                      > > will was
                      > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                      > > no forward
                      > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                      > > to be.
                      > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                      > > world like
                      > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                      > > and it
                      > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                      > > scientific
                      > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                      > > simple and
                      > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                      > > can be
                      > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I Am
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      Too bad there wasn t someone to challenge the writers at the time of the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were eliminated for
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                        the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                        eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                        because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                        myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                        tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                        They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                        a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:

                        "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                        charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                        choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"

                        https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H82gz2n-WqA

                        Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                        name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?

                        I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                        in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                        versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                        people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                        "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                        children and teach them to believe as well.

                        As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                        (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                        within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                        of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                        their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                        where and how they even evolved.

                        ***

                        For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                        the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                        many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                        ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.

                        I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                        others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                        America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                        the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                        religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                        IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                        historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                        believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Non <eckchains@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 1:26 am
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

                         
                        Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                        God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                        for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                        to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                        variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                        complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                        being horribly punished for their insolence.

                        I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                        by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                        Non ;)

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        > It's all interesting mental
                        > gymnastics and circular
                        > thinking fueled by myth.
                        > When reading about lila I
                        > thought of Lillith and how
                        > God kept screwing up in
                        > order to please Adam.
                        >
                        > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple
                        contemplation seeds
                        > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                        > >
                        > >
                        http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                        > >
                        > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal
                        and
                        > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first
                        there was
                        > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity,
                        but rather
                        > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                        > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in
                        movement.
                        > > [... .]"
                        > >
                        > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                        > >
                        > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but
                        from that
                        > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                        > >
                        > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is
                        more akin
                        > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential
                        paradox that
                        > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage
                        place.
                        > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that
                        arises when two
                        > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and
                        controls
                        > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,”
                        play, is thus more
                        > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible
                        interdependent
                        > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that
                        neither ever
                        > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences
                        into a
                        > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of
                        structurality,
                        > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                        > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is
                        Beauty."
                        > >
                        > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt
                        only. And in
                        > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something
                        less in order
                        > > to experience life to enhance it."
                        > >
                        > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are
                        several
                        > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof
                        Capra, from
                        > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                        > >
                        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                        > >
                        > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of
                        Lila first
                        > > originated and then evolved.
                        > >
                        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                        "iam999freedom"
                        > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a
                        creator if the
                        > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                        > > >
                        > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought.
                        Maybe there
                        > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no
                        Souls and no
                        > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are
                        inherently
                        > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something
                        they
                        > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something
                        less. In this
                        > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things
                        and all
                        > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                        > > >
                        > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how
                        is life
                        > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                        > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond
                        space and
                        > > time being One(God).
                        > > >
                        > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something
                        less in
                        > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to
                        eventually
                        > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually
                        become
                        > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are
                        able to be
                        > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully
                        in the
                        > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body
                        limitations.
                        > > >
                        > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book
                        not
                        > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief.
                        Also as the
                        > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and
                        were only
                        > > a glimpse of the Core.
                        > > >
                        > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean
                        beauty, joy,
                        > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                        > > >
                        > > > I AM
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                        etznab@ wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came
                        to me was
                        > > karma ...
                        > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying
                        that I
                        > > necessarily
                        > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma
                        definitions of
                        > > karma.
                        > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and
                        believe that
                        > > it suggests
                        > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn
                        about
                        > > action by the
                        > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator
                        if the
                        > > creator did
                        > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps,
                        knowing the
                        > > effect is
                        > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is
                        that baby
                        > > learns
                        > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or
                        the
                        > > action of
                        > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are
                        responsible for
                        > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as
                        if they had
                        > > something
                        > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person
                        could
                        > > create
                        > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and
                        bombs) that
                        > > affects
                        > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily
                        believe that the
                        > > people
                        > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such
                        things.
                        > > That they
                        > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I
                        remember even
                        > > Harold
                        > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago
                        which, in so
                        > > many
                        > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination
                        and the
                        > > idea that
                        > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for
                        everything
                        > > that
                        > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression
                        Harold was
                        > > saying there
                        > > > > were examples where other people create things that
                        can
                        > > affect us, and
                        > > > > that they are things we are not each personally
                        "responsible"
                        > > for.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows
                        for
                        > > individuals to
                        > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other
                        people in a
                        > > "bad" way.
                        > > > > History is filled with examples.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ***
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote
                        about "free
                        > > will" and
                        > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say
                        to
                        > > myself: "It
                        > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In
                        the morning
                        > > when I
                        > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about
                        conjoined twins
                        > > that had
                        > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to
                        describe
                        > > the twins
                        > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many
                        words)
                        > > one had a
                        > > > > different character than the other.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                        > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                        > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT
                        LOVE
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  
                        > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested
                        about a
                        > > wonderful
                        > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard
                        about the
                        > > book
                        > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and
                        received some
                        > > media
                        > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of
                        Heaven: A
                        > > Neurosurgeon's
                        > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so
                        interesting is
                        > > that
                        > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the
                        validity of
                        > > his NDE
                        > > > > cannot be explained by conventional
                        scientific/medical
                        > > thought. He was
                        > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma
                        for seven
                        > > days
                        > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain
                        whereby a NDE
                        > > and
                        > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he
                        completely
                        > > recovered is
                        > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the
                        condition he
                        > > was in
                        > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival
                        living in a
                        > > vegetative
                        > > > > state is expected.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in
                        synchronicity. I
                        > > placed a
                        > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago
                        and just
                        > > received
                        > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the
                        Newtown
                        > > shootings I was
                        > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my
                        experiences and
                        > > beliefs
                        > > > > were being crushed.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what
                        happened I
                        > > now have a
                        > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love),
                        evil, free
                        > > will etc.
                        > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my
                        life on
                        > > earth.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I
                        found richly
                        > > resonated
                        > > > > within me:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more
                        than I
                        > > could
                        > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them
                        all. Evil
                        > > was
                        > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but
                        only in the
                        > > tiniest
                        > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without
                        it free
                        > > will was
                        > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no
                        growth -
                        > > no forward
                        > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God
                        longed for us
                        > > to be.
                        > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to
                        be in a
                        > > world like
                        > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly
                        dominant,
                        > > and it
                        > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other
                        worlds,
                        > > scientific
                        > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in
                        both a
                        > > simple and
                        > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and
                        compassion.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such
                        worlds/states
                        > > can be
                        > > > > experienced with persistence
                        meditative/comptemplative effort.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I Am
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • iam999freedom
                        Laughing so much aabout your post! Thanks, I needed that! I AM
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
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                          Laughing so much aabout your post! Thanks, I needed that!

                          I AM

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" <eckchains@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then being horribly punished for their insolence.
                          >
                          > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                          >
                          > Non ;)
                          >
                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello All,
                          > > It's all interesting mental
                          > > gymnastics and circular
                          > > thinking fueled by myth.
                          > > When reading about lila I
                          > > thought of Lillith and how
                          > > God kept screwing up in
                          > > order to please Adam.
                          > >
                          > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          > >
                          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                          > > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                          > > >
                          > > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                          > > >
                          > > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                          > > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                          > > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                          > > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                          > > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                          > > > [... .]"
                          > > >
                          > > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                          > > >
                          > > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                          > > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                          > > >
                          > > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                          > > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                          > > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                          > > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                          > > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                          > > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                          > > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                          > > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                          > > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                          > > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                          > > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                          > > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                          > > >
                          > > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                          > > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                          > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                          > > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                          > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                          > > >
                          > > >  
                          > > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                          > > > to experience life to enhance it."
                          > > >
                          > > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                          > > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                          > > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                          > > >
                          > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                          > > >
                          > > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                          > > > originated and then evolved.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                          > > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                          > > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                          > > > >
                          > > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                          > > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                          > > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                          > > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                          > > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                          > > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                          > > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                          > > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                          > > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                          > > > time being One(God).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                          > > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                          > > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                          > > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                          > > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                          > > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                          > > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                          > > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                          > > > a glimpse of the Core.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                          > > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I AM
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                          > > > karma ...
                          > > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                          > > > necessarily
                          > > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                          > > > karma.
                          > > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                          > > > it suggests
                          > > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                          > > > action by the
                          > > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                          > > > creator did
                          > > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                          > > > effect is
                          > > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                          > > > learns
                          > > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                          > > > action of
                          > > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                          > > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                          > > > something
                          > > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                          > > > create
                          > > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                          > > > affects
                          > > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                          > > > people
                          > > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                          > > > That they
                          > > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                          > > > Harold
                          > > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                          > > > many
                          > > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                          > > > idea that
                          > > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                          > > > that
                          > > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                          > > > saying there
                          > > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                          > > > affect us, and
                          > > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                          > > > for.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                          > > > individuals to
                          > > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                          > > > "bad" way.
                          > > > > > History is filled with examples.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > ***
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                          > > > will" and
                          > > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                          > > > myself: "It
                          > > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                          > > > when I
                          > > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                          > > > that had
                          > > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                          > > > the twins
                          > > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                          > > > one had a
                          > > > > > different character than the other.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                          > > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                          > > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                          > > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >  
                          > > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                          > > > wonderful
                          > > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                          > > > book
                          > > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                          > > > media
                          > > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                          > > > Neurosurgeon's
                          > > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                          > > > that
                          > > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                          > > > his NDE
                          > > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                          > > > thought. He was
                          > > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                          > > > days
                          > > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                          > > > and
                          > > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                          > > > recovered is
                          > > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                          > > > was in
                          > > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                          > > > vegetative
                          > > > > > state is expected.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                          > > > placed a
                          > > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                          > > > received
                          > > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                          > > > shootings I was
                          > > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                          > > > beliefs
                          > > > > > were being crushed.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                          > > > now have a
                          > > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                          > > > will etc.
                          > > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                          > > > earth.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                          > > > resonated
                          > > > > > within me:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                          > > > could
                          > > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                          > > > was
                          > > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                          > > > tiniest
                          > > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                          > > > will was
                          > > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                          > > > no forward
                          > > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                          > > > to be.
                          > > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                          > > > world like
                          > > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                          > > > and it
                          > > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                          > > > scientific
                          > > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                          > > > simple and
                          > > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                          > > > can be
                          > > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I Am
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello I AM and All, Yes, religion doesn t allow people to have their own unique experiences with Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc. And, there s always some expert
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
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                            Hello I AM and All,
                            Yes, religion doesn't allow
                            people to have their own
                            unique experiences with
                            Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc.
                            And, there's always some
                            expert to redirect a person
                            into their own niche when
                            each should explore their
                            own path but unite on the
                            inner realms of the same,
                            elusive, invisible Real.

                            Prometheus

                            I AM wrote:
                            Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no
                            proof at all and really makes no sense.

                            On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced
                            or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that
                            everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into
                            multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.

                            I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very
                            clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were
                            souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely
                            one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot
                            of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite
                            dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and
                            this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about
                            being in such an apathetic state.

                            Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases
                            thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were
                            quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least
                            they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the
                            souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds
                            seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well
                            because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured
                            that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of
                            love with more freedom of expression.

                            Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the
                            early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were
                            created.

                            I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life
                            beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings
                            from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to
                            instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the
                            time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that
                            dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.

                            When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot
                            of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but
                            certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I
                            tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with
                            me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it
                            all.

                            I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first
                            place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to
                            perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.

                            I AM


                            prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello All,
                            > It's all interesting mental
                            > gymnastics and circular
                            > thinking fueled by myth.
                            > When reading about lila I
                            > thought of Lillith and how
                            > God kept screwing up in
                            > order to please Adam.
                            >
                            http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                          • iam999freedom
                            Thanks for your comments Prometheus; they were meaningful to me. I d like to share a link for those who may enjoy beautiful, interesting photos in the world
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks for your comments Prometheus; they were meaningful to me.

                              I'd like to share a link for those who may enjoy beautiful, interesting photos in the world about nature, people, things, etc. There's 500 new photos that automatically refresh every day so it never gets boring. I usually quickly browse through about 50-100 a day which only takes about 5-10 minutes. I find that it helps me appreciate the wonderful aspects of this world which can easily be lost amidst a lot of the negativity. If you choose to check it out it is:

                              http://www.flickriver.com/explore/interesting/24hours/


                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello I AM and All,
                              > Yes, religion doesn't allow
                              > people to have their own
                              > unique experiences with
                              > Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc.
                              > And, there's always some
                              > expert to redirect a person
                              > into their own niche when
                              > each should explore their
                              > own path but unite on the
                              > inner realms of the same,
                              > elusive, invisible Real.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              > I AM wrote:
                              > Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no
                              > proof at all and really makes no sense.
                              >
                              > On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced
                              > or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that
                              > everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into
                              > multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.
                              >
                              > I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very
                              > clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were
                              > souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely
                              > one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot
                              > of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite
                              > dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and
                              > this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about
                              > being in such an apathetic state.
                              >
                              > Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases
                              > thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were
                              > quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least
                              > they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the
                              > souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds
                              > seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well
                              > because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured
                              > that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of
                              > love with more freedom of expression.
                              >
                              > Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the
                              > early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were
                              > created.
                              >
                              > I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life
                              > beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings
                              > from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to
                              > instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the
                              > time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that
                              > dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.
                              >
                              > When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot
                              > of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but
                              > certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I
                              > tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with
                              > me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it
                              > all.
                              >
                              > I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first
                              > place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to
                              > perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.
                              >
                              > I AM
                              >
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello All,
                              > > It's all interesting mental
                              > > gymnastics and circular
                              > > thinking fueled by myth.
                              > > When reading about lila I
                              > > thought of Lillith and how
                              > > God kept screwing up in
                              > > order to please Adam.
                              > >
                              > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Etznab and All, Yes, the gospel here: http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm had a very warped way of viewing women as well. I had read, elsewhere, that Lilith was
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello Etznab and All,
                                Yes, the gospel here:
                                http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                had a very warped way
                                of viewing women as
                                well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                that Lilith was created
                                in the same way as Adam
                                and was his equal, but
                                she didn't want to stay
                                with Adam, she was more
                                spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                a tool, was domineering
                                and only wanted sex.
                                Thus, Lilith asked God
                                if she could be with
                                him in Heaven and this
                                was granted. Therefore,
                                Lilith was not a demon
                                and evil but was actually
                                very spiritual.

                                The HBO series "True Blood"
                                has a different take on Lilith.
                                She was the first Vampire and
                                God's first, perfect, creation.

                                Prometheus

                                etznab wrote:
                                Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:

                                "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"

                                https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                82gz2n-WqA

                                Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?

                                I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                children and teach them to believe as well.

                                As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                where and how they even evolved.

                                ***

                                For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.

                                I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.



                                Non wrote:
                                Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                being horribly punished for their insolence.

                                I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                                Non ;)


                                <prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello All,
                                > It's all interesting mental
                                > gymnastics and circular
                                > thinking fueled by myth.
                                > When reading about lila I
                                > thought of Lillith and how
                                > God kept screwing up in
                                > order to please Adam.
                                >
                                http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                              • iam999freedom
                                The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure). The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).

                                  The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.

                                  The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.

                                  It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                                  > Yes, the gospel here:
                                  > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                  > had a very warped way
                                  > of viewing women as
                                  > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                  > that Lilith was created
                                  > in the same way as Adam
                                  > and was his equal, but
                                  > she didn't want to stay
                                  > with Adam, she was more
                                  > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                  > a tool, was domineering
                                  > and only wanted sex.
                                  > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                  > if she could be with
                                  > him in Heaven and this
                                  > was granted. Therefore,
                                  > Lilith was not a demon
                                  > and evil but was actually
                                  > very spiritual.
                                  >
                                  > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                  > has a different take on Lilith.
                                  > She was the first Vampire and
                                  > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  > etznab wrote:
                                  > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                  > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                  > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                  > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                  > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                  > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                  > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                  > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                  >
                                  > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                  > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                  > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                  >
                                  > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                  > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                  > 82gz2n-WqA
                                  >
                                  > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                  > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                  >
                                  > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                  > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                  > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                  > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                  > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                  > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                  >
                                  > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                  > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                  > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                  > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                  > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                  > where and how they even evolved.
                                  >
                                  > ***
                                  >
                                  > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                  > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                  > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                  > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                  >
                                  > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                  > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                  > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                  > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                  > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                  > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                  > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                  > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Non wrote:
                                  > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                  > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                  > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                  > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                  > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                  > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                  > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                  >
                                  > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                  > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                  >
                                  > Non ;)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > <prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello All,
                                  > > It's all interesting mental
                                  > > gymnastics and circular
                                  > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                  > > When reading about lila I
                                  > > thought of Lillith and how
                                  > > God kept screwing up in
                                  > > order to please Adam.
                                  > >
                                  > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                  >
                                • etznab18
                                  Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I ve never known this to happen so much as in the last
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 30, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                                    >
                                    > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                                    >
                                    > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                                    >
                                    > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                                    >
                                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                    > > Yes, the gospel here:
                                    > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                    > > had a very warped way
                                    > > of viewing women as
                                    > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                    > > that Lilith was created
                                    > > in the same way as Adam
                                    > > and was his equal, but
                                    > > she didn't want to stay
                                    > > with Adam, she was more
                                    > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                    > > a tool, was domineering
                                    > > and only wanted sex.
                                    > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                    > > if she could be with
                                    > > him in Heaven and this
                                    > > was granted. Therefore,
                                    > > Lilith was not a demon
                                    > > and evil but was actually
                                    > > very spiritual.
                                    > >
                                    > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                    > > has a different take on Lilith.
                                    > > She was the first Vampire and
                                    > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    > >
                                    > > etznab wrote:
                                    > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                    > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                    > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                    > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                    > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                    > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                    > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                    > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                    > >
                                    > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                    > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                    > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                    > >
                                    > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                    > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                    > > 82gz2n-WqA
                                    > >
                                    > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                    > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                    > >
                                    > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                    > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                    > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                    > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                    > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                    > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                    > >
                                    > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                    > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                    > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                    > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                    > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                    > > where and how they even evolved.
                                    > >
                                    > > ***
                                    > >
                                    > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                    > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                    > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                    > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                    > >
                                    > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                    > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                    > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                    > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                    > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                    > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                    > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                    > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Non wrote:
                                    > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                    > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                    > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                    > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                    > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                    > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                    > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                    > >
                                    > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                    > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                    > >
                                    > > Non ;)
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > <prometheus wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hello All,
                                    > > > It's all interesting mental
                                    > > > gymnastics and circular
                                    > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                    > > > When reading about lila I
                                    > > > thought of Lillith and how
                                    > > > God kept screwing up in
                                    > > > order to please Adam.
                                    > > >
                                    > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • iam999freedom
                                    Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking). Anyway, happy New Year to you and All! Cheers, I AM
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 2, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking).

                                      Anyway, happy New Year to you and All!

                                      Cheers,
                                      I AM

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!
                                      >
                                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                                      > >
                                      > > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                                      > >
                                      > > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                                      > >
                                      > > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                      > > > Yes, the gospel here:
                                      > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                      > > > had a very warped way
                                      > > > of viewing women as
                                      > > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                      > > > that Lilith was created
                                      > > > in the same way as Adam
                                      > > > and was his equal, but
                                      > > > she didn't want to stay
                                      > > > with Adam, she was more
                                      > > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                      > > > a tool, was domineering
                                      > > > and only wanted sex.
                                      > > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                      > > > if she could be with
                                      > > > him in Heaven and this
                                      > > > was granted. Therefore,
                                      > > > Lilith was not a demon
                                      > > > and evil but was actually
                                      > > > very spiritual.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                      > > > has a different take on Lilith.
                                      > > > She was the first Vampire and
                                      > > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prometheus
                                      > > >
                                      > > > etznab wrote:
                                      > > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                      > > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                      > > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                      > > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                      > > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                      > > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                      > > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                      > > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                      > > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                      > > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                      > > >
                                      > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                      > > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                      > > > 82gz2n-WqA
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                      > > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                      > > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                      > > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                      > > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                      > > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                      > > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                      > > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                      > > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                      > > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                      > > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                      > > > where and how they even evolved.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ***
                                      > > >
                                      > > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                      > > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                      > > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                      > > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                      > > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                      > > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                      > > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                      > > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                      > > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                      > > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                      > > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Non wrote:
                                      > > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                      > > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                      > > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                      > > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                      > > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                      > > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                      > > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                      > > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Non ;)
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > <prometheus wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Hello All,
                                      > > > > It's all interesting mental
                                      > > > > gymnastics and circular
                                      > > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                      > > > > When reading about lila I
                                      > > > > thought of Lillith and how
                                      > > > > God kept screwing up in
                                      > > > > order to please Adam.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • etznab18
                                      I ve never had so much trouble with a news server than with Yahoo. Just found out my account has been bouncing emails again (which means I don t get the
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jan 10, 2013
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                                        I've never had so much trouble with a news server than with Yahoo. Just found out my account has been bouncing emails again (which means I don't get the messages) since December 30th.

                                        Now I have to go back and read about two weeks of posts.

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking).
                                        >
                                        > Anyway, happy New Year to you and All!
                                        >
                                        > Cheers,
                                        > I AM
                                        >
                                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                        > > > > Yes, the gospel here:
                                        > > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                        > > > > had a very warped way
                                        > > > > of viewing women as
                                        > > > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                        > > > > that Lilith was created
                                        > > > > in the same way as Adam
                                        > > > > and was his equal, but
                                        > > > > she didn't want to stay
                                        > > > > with Adam, she was more
                                        > > > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                        > > > > a tool, was domineering
                                        > > > > and only wanted sex.
                                        > > > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                        > > > > if she could be with
                                        > > > > him in Heaven and this
                                        > > > > was granted. Therefore,
                                        > > > > Lilith was not a demon
                                        > > > > and evil but was actually
                                        > > > > very spiritual.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                        > > > > has a different take on Lilith.
                                        > > > > She was the first Vampire and
                                        > > > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Prometheus
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > etznab wrote:
                                        > > > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                        > > > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                        > > > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                        > > > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                        > > > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                        > > > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                        > > > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                        > > > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                        > > > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                        > > > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                        > > > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                        > > > > 82gz2n-WqA
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                        > > > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                        > > > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                        > > > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                        > > > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                        > > > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                        > > > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                        > > > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                        > > > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                        > > > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                        > > > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                        > > > > where and how they even evolved.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ***
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                        > > > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                        > > > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                        > > > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                        > > > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                        > > > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                        > > > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                        > > > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                        > > > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                        > > > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                        > > > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Non wrote:
                                        > > > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                        > > > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                        > > > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                        > > > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                        > > > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                        > > > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                        > > > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                        > > > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Non ;)
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > > Hello All,
                                        > > > > > It's all interesting mental
                                        > > > > > gymnastics and circular
                                        > > > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                        > > > > > When reading about lila I
                                        > > > > > thought of Lillith and how
                                        > > > > > God kept screwing up in
                                        > > > > > order to please Adam.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
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