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A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

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  • iam999freedom
    I thought I d share for those who may be interested about a wonderful book I ve just finished reading. You may have heard about the book already as it was
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 23, 2012
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      I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.

      What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative state is expected.

      It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs were being crushed.

      Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc. I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.

      The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated within me:

      "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be. Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it would ultimatlely be triumphant."

      The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.

      Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.

      I Am
    • etznab@aol.com
      About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was karma ... in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I necessarily believe in all the
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 24, 2012
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        About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was karma ...
        in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I necessarily
        believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of karma.
        Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that it suggests
        "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.

        It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about action by the
        effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the creator did
        not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the effect is
        the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby learns
        about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the action of
        touching fire, is instructive.

        I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
        everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had something
        to do with it. However, given free will, one person could create
        something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that affects
        millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the people
        affected are "responsible" as if they created such things. That they
        created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even Harold
        Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so many
        words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the idea that
        people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything that
        happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was saying there
        were examples where other people create things that can affect us, and
        that they are things we are not each personally "responsible" for.

        What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for individuals to
        make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a "bad" way.
        History is filled with examples.

        ***

        Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free will" and
        genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself: "It
        looks to me like Harold has lost it!"

        Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
        turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
        been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
        and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
        different character than the other.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

         
        I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful
        book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book
        already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media
        attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's
        Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.

        What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that
        before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE
        cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was
        attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days
        completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and
        consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is
        also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
        there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative
        state is expected.

        It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a
        hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received
        the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was
        so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs
        were being crushed.

        Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a
        refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc.
        I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.

        The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated
        within me:

        "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could
        conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was
        present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest
        trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was
        impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward
        movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be.
        Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like
        ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it
        would ultimatlely be triumphant."

        The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific
        debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and
        explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.

        Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be
        experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.

        I Am
      • iam999freedom
        I don t know what HK said about free will and genes as I left Eckankar years ago and don t have a liftetime membership. Maybe something original? If you
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 24, 2012
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          I don't know what HK said about "free will" and genes as I left Eckankar years ago and don't have a liftetime membership. Maybe something original? If you could send a summary about it to ESA it would be appreciated as then I could tie it into what you said about the conjoined twins.

          In your post (below) I don't think I understand the significance of what you are expressing. Could you explain?

          I AM

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
          >
          > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was karma ...
          > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I necessarily
          > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of karma.
          > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that it suggests
          > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
          >
          > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about action by the
          > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the creator did
          > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the effect is
          > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby learns
          > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the action of
          > touching fire, is instructive.
          >
          > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
          > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had something
          > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could create
          > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that affects
          > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the people
          > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things. That they
          > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even Harold
          > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so many
          > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the idea that
          > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything that
          > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was saying there
          > were examples where other people create things that can affect us, and
          > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible" for.
          >
          > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for individuals to
          > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a "bad" way.
          > History is filled with examples.
          >
          > ***
          >
          > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free will" and
          > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself: "It
          > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
          >
          > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
          > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
          > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
          > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
          > different character than the other.
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
          >
          >  
          > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful
          > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book
          > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media
          > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's
          > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
          >
          > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that
          > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE
          > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was
          > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days
          > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and
          > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is
          > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
          > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative
          > state is expected.
          >
          > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a
          > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received
          > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was
          > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs
          > were being crushed.
          >
          > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a
          > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc.
          > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.
          >
          > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated
          > within me:
          >
          > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could
          > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was
          > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest
          > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was
          > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward
          > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be.
          > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like
          > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it
          > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
          >
          > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific
          > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and
          > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
          >
          > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be
          > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
          >
          > I Am
          >
        • iam999freedom
          Hi Etznab, You wrote, What would creation be for a creator if the creator did not know the effect of a creation? In a previous post you wrote, Here s
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 24, 2012
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            Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the creator did not know the effect of a creation?"

            In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of individual choice."

            In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).

            Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.

            I should mention that there are many things in the book not mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only a glimpse of the Core.

            Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy, compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.

            I AM



            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
            >
            > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was karma ...
            > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I necessarily
            > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of karma.
            > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that it suggests
            > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
            >
            > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about action by the
            > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the creator did
            > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the effect is
            > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby learns
            > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the action of
            > touching fire, is instructive.
            >
            > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
            > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had something
            > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could create
            > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that affects
            > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the people
            > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things. That they
            > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even Harold
            > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so many
            > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the idea that
            > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything that
            > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was saying there
            > were examples where other people create things that can affect us, and
            > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible" for.
            >
            > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for individuals to
            > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a "bad" way.
            > History is filled with examples.
            >
            > ***
            >
            > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free will" and
            > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself: "It
            > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
            >
            > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
            > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
            > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
            > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
            > different character than the other.
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
            >
            >  
            > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful
            > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book
            > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media
            > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's
            > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
            >
            > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that
            > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE
            > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was
            > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days
            > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and
            > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is
            > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
            > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative
            > state is expected.
            >
            > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a
            > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received
            > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was
            > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs
            > were being crushed.
            >
            > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a
            > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc.
            > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.
            >
            > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated
            > within me:
            >
            > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could
            > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was
            > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest
            > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was
            > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward
            > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be.
            > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like
            > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it
            > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
            >
            > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific
            > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and
            > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
            >
            > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be
            > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
            >
            > I Am
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello IAM and All, Merry Christmas! Yes, the synchronicity of events is interesting and this occurred with the Newtown massacre. The one little girl who played
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 24, 2012
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              Hello IAM and All,

              Merry Christmas!

              Yes, the synchronicity of events
              is interesting and this occurred
              with the Newtown massacre.
              The one little girl who played
              dead while all of her classmates
              were murdered was fortunate.
              In their class picture she is exactly
              in the middle. She's in the middle
              row of the three rows and in
              the middle of that row.

              Prometheus

              iam999freedom wrote:
              I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful book I've
              just finished reading. You may have heard about the book already as it was
              written recently in 2012 and received some media attention. The name of the book
              is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben
              Alexander, MD.

              What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that before it he
              was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE cannot be explained by
              conventional scientific/medical thought. He was attacked by e-coli menningitis
              and lay in a coma for seven days completely brain dead in the areas of the brain
              whereby a NDE and consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
              recovered is also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
              there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative state is
              expected.

              It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a hold on
              this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received the book this past
              Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was so shocked and saddened that
              the core of my experiences and beliefs were being crushed.

              Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a refreshed
              look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc. I also feel
              rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.

              The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated within
              me:

              "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could conceive - but
              that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was present in all the other
              universes as well, but only in the tiniest trace amounts. Evil was necessary
              because without it free will was impossible, and without free will there could
              be no growth - no forward movement, no chance for us to become what God longed
              for us to be. Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world
              like ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it would
              ultimatlely be triumphant."

              The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific debate and
              spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and explicit fascinating
              way that evoked love and compassion.

              Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be experienced
              with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.

              I Am
            • Janice Pfeiffer
              That definitely sounds like a must read book.  Thanks for pointing it out. ... From: iam999freedom Subject:
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
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                That definitely sounds like a must read book.  Thanks for pointing it out.

                --- On Mon, 12/24/12, iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...> wrote:

                From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, December 24, 2012, 2:50 AM

                 
                I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.

                What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative state is expected.

                It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs were being crushed.

                Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc. I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.

                The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated within me:

                "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be. Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it would ultimatlely be triumphant."

                The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.

                Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.

                I Am

              • etznab18
                Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it. This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However,
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
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                  "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it."

                  This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29

                  I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first originated and then evolved.

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                  >
                  > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                  >
                  > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
                  >
                  > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                  >
                  > I should mention that there are many things in the book not mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only a glimpse of the Core.
                  >
                  > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy, compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                  >
                  > I AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was karma ...
                  > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I necessarily
                  > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of karma.
                  > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that it suggests
                  > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                  > >
                  > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about action by the
                  > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the creator did
                  > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the effect is
                  > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby learns
                  > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the action of
                  > > touching fire, is instructive.
                  > >
                  > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                  > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had something
                  > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could create
                  > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that affects
                  > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the people
                  > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things. That they
                  > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even Harold
                  > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so many
                  > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the idea that
                  > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything that
                  > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was saying there
                  > > were examples where other people create things that can affect us, and
                  > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible" for.
                  > >
                  > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for individuals to
                  > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a "bad" way.
                  > > History is filled with examples.
                  > >
                  > > ***
                  > >
                  > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free will" and
                  > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself: "It
                  > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                  > >
                  > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
                  > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
                  > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
                  > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
                  > > different character than the other.
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                  > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                  > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                  > >
                  > >  
                  > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a wonderful
                  > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the book
                  > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some media
                  > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's
                  > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                  > >
                  > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is that
                  > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of his NDE
                  > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical thought. He was
                  > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven days
                  > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE and
                  > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely recovered is
                  > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he was in
                  > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a vegetative
                  > > state is expected.
                  > >
                  > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I placed a
                  > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just received
                  > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown shootings I was
                  > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and beliefs
                  > > were being crushed.
                  > >
                  > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I now have a
                  > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free will etc.
                  > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on earth.
                  > >
                  > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly resonated
                  > > within me:
                  > >
                  > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I could
                  > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil was
                  > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the tiniest
                  > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free will was
                  > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth - no forward
                  > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us to be.
                  > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a world like
                  > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant, and it
                  > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                  > >
                  > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds, scientific
                  > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a simple and
                  > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states can be
                  > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                  > >
                  > > I Am
                  > >
                  >
                • etznab@aol.com
                  A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds (what I recently found) from the following link.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                    (what I recently found) from the following link.

                    http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf

                    "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                    sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                    unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                    that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                    perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                    [... .]"

                    I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.

                    This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                    whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.

                    "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                    to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                    resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                    For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                    drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                    the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                    accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                    connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                    overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                    unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                    this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                    vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."

                    It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                    that case, would anybody here care to comment?


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

                     
                    "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                    to experience life to enhance it."

                    This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                    different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                    The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29

                    I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                    originated and then evolved.

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                    <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                    creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                    >
                    > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                    is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                    Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                    nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                    sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                    case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                    evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                    >
                    > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                    enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                    seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                    time being One(God).
                    >
                    > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                    order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                    enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                    identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                    it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                    "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                    >
                    > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                    mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                    author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                    a glimpse of the Core.
                    >
                    > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                    compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                    >
                    > I AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                    karma ...
                    > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                    necessarily
                    > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                    karma.
                    > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                    it suggests
                    > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                    > >
                    > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                    action by the
                    > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                    creator did
                    > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                    effect is
                    > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                    learns
                    > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                    action of
                    > > touching fire, is instructive.
                    > >
                    > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                    > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                    something
                    > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                    create
                    > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                    affects
                    > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                    people
                    > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                    That they
                    > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                    Harold
                    > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                    many
                    > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                    idea that
                    > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                    that
                    > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                    saying there
                    > > were examples where other people create things that can
                    affect us, and
                    > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                    for.
                    > >
                    > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                    individuals to
                    > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                    "bad" way.
                    > > History is filled with examples.
                    > >
                    > > ***
                    > >
                    > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                    will" and
                    > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                    myself: "It
                    > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                    > >
                    > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                    when I
                    > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                    that had
                    > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                    the twins
                    > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                    one had a
                    > > different character than the other.
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                    > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                    > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                    wonderful
                    > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                    book
                    > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                    media
                    > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                    Neurosurgeon's
                    > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                    > >
                    > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                    that
                    > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                    his NDE
                    > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                    thought. He was
                    > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                    days
                    > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                    and
                    > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                    recovered is
                    > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                    was in
                    > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                    vegetative
                    > > state is expected.
                    > >
                    > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                    placed a
                    > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                    received
                    > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                    shootings I was
                    > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                    beliefs
                    > > were being crushed.
                    > >
                    > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                    now have a
                    > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                    will etc.
                    > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                    earth.
                    > >
                    > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                    resonated
                    > > within me:
                    > >
                    > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                    could
                    > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                    was
                    > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                    tiniest
                    > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                    will was
                    > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                    no forward
                    > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                    to be.
                    > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                    world like
                    > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                    and it
                    > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                    > >
                    > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                    scientific
                    > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                    simple and
                    > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                    > >
                    > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                    can be
                    > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                    > >
                    > > I Am
                    > >
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, It s all interesting mental gymnastics and circular thinking fueled by myth. When reading about lila I thought of Lillith and how God kept screwing
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello All,
                      It's all interesting mental
                      gymnastics and circular
                      thinking fueled by myth.
                      When reading about lila I
                      thought of Lillith and how
                      God kept screwing up in
                      order to please Adam.

                      http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm

                      Prometheus

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                      >
                      > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                      > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                      >
                      > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                      >
                      > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                      > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                      > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                      > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                      > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                      > [... .]"
                      >
                      > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                      >
                      > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                      > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                      >
                      > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                      > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                      > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                      > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                      > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                      > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                      > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                      > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                      > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                      > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                      > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                      > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                      >
                      > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                      > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                      >
                      >  
                      > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                      > to experience life to enhance it."
                      >
                      > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                      > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                      > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                      >
                      > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                      > originated and then evolved.
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                      > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                      > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                      > >
                      > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                      > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                      > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                      > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                      > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                      > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                      > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                      > >
                      > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                      > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                      > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                      > time being One(God).
                      > >
                      > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                      > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                      > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                      > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                      > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                      > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                      > >
                      > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                      > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                      > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                      > a glimpse of the Core.
                      > >
                      > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                      > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                      > >
                      > > I AM
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                      > karma ...
                      > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                      > necessarily
                      > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                      > karma.
                      > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                      > it suggests
                      > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                      > > >
                      > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                      > action by the
                      > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                      > creator did
                      > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                      > effect is
                      > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                      > learns
                      > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                      > action of
                      > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                      > > >
                      > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                      > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                      > something
                      > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                      > create
                      > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                      > affects
                      > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                      > people
                      > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                      > That they
                      > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                      > Harold
                      > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                      > many
                      > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                      > idea that
                      > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                      > that
                      > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                      > saying there
                      > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                      > affect us, and
                      > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                      > for.
                      > > >
                      > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                      > individuals to
                      > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                      > "bad" way.
                      > > > History is filled with examples.
                      > > >
                      > > > ***
                      > > >
                      > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                      > will" and
                      > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                      > myself: "It
                      > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                      > > >
                      > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                      > when I
                      > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                      > that had
                      > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                      > the twins
                      > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                      > one had a
                      > > > different character than the other.
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                      > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                      > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                      > > >
                      > > >  
                      > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                      > wonderful
                      > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                      > book
                      > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                      > media
                      > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                      > Neurosurgeon's
                      > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                      > > >
                      > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                      > that
                      > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                      > his NDE
                      > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                      > thought. He was
                      > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                      > days
                      > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                      > and
                      > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                      > recovered is
                      > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                      > was in
                      > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                      > vegetative
                      > > > state is expected.
                      > > >
                      > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                      > placed a
                      > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                      > received
                      > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                      > shootings I was
                      > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                      > beliefs
                      > > > were being crushed.
                      > > >
                      > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                      > now have a
                      > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                      > will etc.
                      > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                      > earth.
                      > > >
                      > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                      > resonated
                      > > > within me:
                      > > >
                      > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                      > could
                      > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                      > was
                      > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                      > tiniest
                      > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                      > will was
                      > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                      > no forward
                      > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                      > to be.
                      > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                      > world like
                      > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                      > and it
                      > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                      > > >
                      > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                      > scientific
                      > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                      > simple and
                      > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                      > > >
                      > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                      > can be
                      > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                      > > >
                      > > > I Am
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • iam999freedom
                      Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no proof at all and really makes no sense. On the other hand the story of Lila I
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no proof at all and really makes no sense.

                        On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.

                        I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about being in such an apathetic state.

                        Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of love with more freedom of expression.

                        Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were created.

                        I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.

                        When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it all.

                        I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.

                        I AM


                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        > It's all interesting mental
                        > gymnastics and circular
                        > thinking fueled by myth.
                        > When reading about lila I
                        > thought of Lillith and how
                        > God kept screwing up in
                        > order to please Adam.
                        >
                        > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                        > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                        > >
                        > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                        > >
                        > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                        > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                        > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                        > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                        > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                        > > [... .]"
                        > >
                        > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                        > >
                        > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                        > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                        > >
                        > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                        > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                        > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                        > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                        > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                        > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                        > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                        > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                        > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                        > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                        > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                        > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                        > >
                        > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                        > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                        > > to experience life to enhance it."
                        > >
                        > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                        > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                        > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                        > >
                        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                        > >
                        > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                        > > originated and then evolved.
                        > >
                        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                        > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                        > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                        > > >
                        > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                        > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                        > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                        > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                        > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                        > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                        > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                        > > >
                        > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                        > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                        > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                        > > time being One(God).
                        > > >
                        > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                        > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                        > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                        > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                        > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                        > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                        > > >
                        > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                        > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                        > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                        > > a glimpse of the Core.
                        > > >
                        > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                        > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                        > > >
                        > > > I AM
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                        > > karma ...
                        > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                        > > necessarily
                        > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                        > > karma.
                        > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                        > > it suggests
                        > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                        > > action by the
                        > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                        > > creator did
                        > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                        > > effect is
                        > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                        > > learns
                        > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                        > > action of
                        > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                        > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                        > > something
                        > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                        > > create
                        > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                        > > affects
                        > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                        > > people
                        > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                        > > That they
                        > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                        > > Harold
                        > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                        > > many
                        > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                        > > idea that
                        > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                        > > that
                        > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                        > > saying there
                        > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                        > > affect us, and
                        > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                        > > for.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                        > > individuals to
                        > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                        > > "bad" way.
                        > > > > History is filled with examples.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ***
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                        > > will" and
                        > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                        > > myself: "It
                        > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                        > > when I
                        > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                        > > that had
                        > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                        > > the twins
                        > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                        > > one had a
                        > > > > different character than the other.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                        > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                        > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                        > > > >
                        > > > >  
                        > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                        > > wonderful
                        > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                        > > book
                        > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                        > > media
                        > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                        > > Neurosurgeon's
                        > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                        > > that
                        > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                        > > his NDE
                        > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                        > > thought. He was
                        > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                        > > days
                        > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                        > > and
                        > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                        > > recovered is
                        > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                        > > was in
                        > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                        > > vegetative
                        > > > > state is expected.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                        > > placed a
                        > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                        > > received
                        > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                        > > shootings I was
                        > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                        > > beliefs
                        > > > > were being crushed.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                        > > now have a
                        > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                        > > will etc.
                        > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                        > > earth.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                        > > resonated
                        > > > > within me:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                        > > could
                        > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                        > > was
                        > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                        > > tiniest
                        > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                        > > will was
                        > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                        > > no forward
                        > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                        > > to be.
                        > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                        > > world like
                        > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                        > > and it
                        > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                        > > scientific
                        > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                        > > simple and
                        > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                        > > can be
                        > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I Am
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Non
                        Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God s attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 25, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then being horribly punished for their insolence.

                          I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                          Non ;)

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          > It's all interesting mental
                          > gymnastics and circular
                          > thinking fueled by myth.
                          > When reading about lila I
                          > thought of Lillith and how
                          > God kept screwing up in
                          > order to please Adam.
                          >
                          > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                          > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                          > >
                          > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                          > >
                          > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                          > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                          > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                          > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                          > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                          > > [... .]"
                          > >
                          > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                          > >
                          > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                          > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                          > >
                          > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                          > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                          > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                          > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                          > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                          > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                          > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                          > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                          > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                          > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                          > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                          > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                          > >
                          > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                          > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                          > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                          > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                          > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                          > >
                          > >  
                          > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                          > > to experience life to enhance it."
                          > >
                          > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                          > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                          > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                          > >
                          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                          > >
                          > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                          > > originated and then evolved.
                          > >
                          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                          > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                          > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                          > > >
                          > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                          > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                          > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                          > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                          > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                          > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                          > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                          > > >
                          > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                          > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                          > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                          > > time being One(God).
                          > > >
                          > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                          > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                          > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                          > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                          > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                          > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                          > > >
                          > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                          > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                          > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                          > > a glimpse of the Core.
                          > > >
                          > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                          > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                          > > >
                          > > > I AM
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                          > > karma ...
                          > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                          > > necessarily
                          > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                          > > karma.
                          > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                          > > it suggests
                          > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                          > > action by the
                          > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                          > > creator did
                          > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                          > > effect is
                          > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                          > > learns
                          > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                          > > action of
                          > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                          > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                          > > something
                          > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                          > > create
                          > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                          > > affects
                          > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                          > > people
                          > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                          > > That they
                          > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                          > > Harold
                          > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                          > > many
                          > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                          > > idea that
                          > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                          > > that
                          > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                          > > saying there
                          > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                          > > affect us, and
                          > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                          > > for.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                          > > individuals to
                          > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                          > > "bad" way.
                          > > > > History is filled with examples.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ***
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                          > > will" and
                          > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                          > > myself: "It
                          > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                          > > when I
                          > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                          > > that had
                          > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                          > > the twins
                          > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                          > > one had a
                          > > > > different character than the other.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                          > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                          > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                          > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                          > > > >
                          > > > >  
                          > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                          > > wonderful
                          > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                          > > book
                          > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                          > > media
                          > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                          > > Neurosurgeon's
                          > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                          > > that
                          > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                          > > his NDE
                          > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                          > > thought. He was
                          > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                          > > days
                          > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                          > > and
                          > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                          > > recovered is
                          > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                          > > was in
                          > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                          > > vegetative
                          > > > > state is expected.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                          > > placed a
                          > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                          > > received
                          > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                          > > shootings I was
                          > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                          > > beliefs
                          > > > > were being crushed.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                          > > now have a
                          > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                          > > will etc.
                          > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                          > > earth.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                          > > resonated
                          > > > > within me:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                          > > could
                          > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                          > > was
                          > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                          > > tiniest
                          > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                          > > will was
                          > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                          > > no forward
                          > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                          > > to be.
                          > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                          > > world like
                          > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                          > > and it
                          > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                          > > scientific
                          > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                          > > simple and
                          > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                          > > can be
                          > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I Am
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          Too bad there wasn t someone to challenge the writers at the time of the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were eliminated for
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                            the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                            eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                            because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                            myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                            tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                            They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                            a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:

                            "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                            charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                            choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"

                            https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H82gz2n-WqA

                            Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                            name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?

                            I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                            in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                            versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                            people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                            "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                            children and teach them to believe as well.

                            As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                            (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                            within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                            of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                            their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                            where and how they even evolved.

                            ***

                            For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                            the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                            many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                            ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.

                            I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                            others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                            America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                            the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                            religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                            IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                            historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                            believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Non <eckchains@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 1:26 am
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE

                             
                            Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                            God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                            for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                            to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                            variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                            complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                            being horribly punished for their insolence.

                            I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                            by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                            Non ;)

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello All,
                            > It's all interesting mental
                            > gymnastics and circular
                            > thinking fueled by myth.
                            > When reading about lila I
                            > thought of Lillith and how
                            > God kept screwing up in
                            > order to please Adam.
                            >
                            > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple
                            contemplation seeds
                            > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                            > >
                            > >
                            http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                            > >
                            > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal
                            and
                            > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first
                            there was
                            > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity,
                            but rather
                            > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                            > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in
                            movement.
                            > > [... .]"
                            > >
                            > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                            > >
                            > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but
                            from that
                            > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                            > >
                            > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is
                            more akin
                            > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential
                            paradox that
                            > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage
                            place.
                            > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that
                            arises when two
                            > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and
                            controls
                            > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,”
                            play, is thus more
                            > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible
                            interdependent
                            > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that
                            neither ever
                            > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences
                            into a
                            > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of
                            structurality,
                            > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                            > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is
                            Beauty."
                            > >
                            > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt
                            only. And in
                            > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                            > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                            > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                            > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                            > >
                            > >  
                            > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something
                            less in order
                            > > to experience life to enhance it."
                            > >
                            > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are
                            several
                            > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof
                            Capra, from
                            > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                            > >
                            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                            > >
                            > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of
                            Lila first
                            > > originated and then evolved.
                            > >
                            > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                            "iam999freedom"
                            > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a
                            creator if the
                            > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                            > > >
                            > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought.
                            Maybe there
                            > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no
                            Souls and no
                            > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are
                            inherently
                            > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something
                            they
                            > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something
                            less. In this
                            > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things
                            and all
                            > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                            > > >
                            > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how
                            is life
                            > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                            > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond
                            space and
                            > > time being One(God).
                            > > >
                            > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something
                            less in
                            > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to
                            eventually
                            > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually
                            become
                            > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are
                            able to be
                            > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully
                            in the
                            > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body
                            limitations.
                            > > >
                            > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book
                            not
                            > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief.
                            Also as the
                            > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and
                            were only
                            > > a glimpse of the Core.
                            > > >
                            > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean
                            beauty, joy,
                            > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                            > > >
                            > > > I AM
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
                            etznab@ wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came
                            to me was
                            > > karma ...
                            > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying
                            that I
                            > > necessarily
                            > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma
                            definitions of
                            > > karma.
                            > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and
                            believe that
                            > > it suggests
                            > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn
                            about
                            > > action by the
                            > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator
                            if the
                            > > creator did
                            > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps,
                            knowing the
                            > > effect is
                            > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is
                            that baby
                            > > learns
                            > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or
                            the
                            > > action of
                            > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are
                            responsible for
                            > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as
                            if they had
                            > > something
                            > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person
                            could
                            > > create
                            > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and
                            bombs) that
                            > > affects
                            > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily
                            believe that the
                            > > people
                            > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such
                            things.
                            > > That they
                            > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I
                            remember even
                            > > Harold
                            > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago
                            which, in so
                            > > many
                            > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination
                            and the
                            > > idea that
                            > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for
                            everything
                            > > that
                            > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression
                            Harold was
                            > > saying there
                            > > > > were examples where other people create things that
                            can
                            > > affect us, and
                            > > > > that they are things we are not each personally
                            "responsible"
                            > > for.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows
                            for
                            > > individuals to
                            > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other
                            people in a
                            > > "bad" way.
                            > > > > History is filled with examples.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > ***
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote
                            about "free
                            > > will" and
                            > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say
                            to
                            > > myself: "It
                            > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In
                            the morning
                            > > when I
                            > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about
                            conjoined twins
                            > > that had
                            > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to
                            describe
                            > > the twins
                            > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many
                            words)
                            > > one had a
                            > > > > different character than the other.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                            > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                            > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                            > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT
                            LOVE
                            > > > >
                            > > > >  
                            > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested
                            about a
                            > > wonderful
                            > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard
                            about the
                            > > book
                            > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and
                            received some
                            > > media
                            > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of
                            Heaven: A
                            > > Neurosurgeon's
                            > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so
                            interesting is
                            > > that
                            > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the
                            validity of
                            > > his NDE
                            > > > > cannot be explained by conventional
                            scientific/medical
                            > > thought. He was
                            > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma
                            for seven
                            > > days
                            > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain
                            whereby a NDE
                            > > and
                            > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he
                            completely
                            > > recovered is
                            > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the
                            condition he
                            > > was in
                            > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival
                            living in a
                            > > vegetative
                            > > > > state is expected.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in
                            synchronicity. I
                            > > placed a
                            > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago
                            and just
                            > > received
                            > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the
                            Newtown
                            > > shootings I was
                            > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my
                            experiences and
                            > > beliefs
                            > > > > were being crushed.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what
                            happened I
                            > > now have a
                            > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love),
                            evil, free
                            > > will etc.
                            > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my
                            life on
                            > > earth.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I
                            found richly
                            > > resonated
                            > > > > within me:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more
                            than I
                            > > could
                            > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them
                            all. Evil
                            > > was
                            > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but
                            only in the
                            > > tiniest
                            > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without
                            it free
                            > > will was
                            > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no
                            growth -
                            > > no forward
                            > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God
                            longed for us
                            > > to be.
                            > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to
                            be in a
                            > > world like
                            > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly
                            dominant,
                            > > and it
                            > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other
                            worlds,
                            > > scientific
                            > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in
                            both a
                            > > simple and
                            > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and
                            compassion.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such
                            worlds/states
                            > > can be
                            > > > > experienced with persistence
                            meditative/comptemplative effort.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I Am
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • iam999freedom
                            Laughing so much aabout your post! Thanks, I needed that! I AM
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 26, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Laughing so much aabout your post! Thanks, I needed that!

                              I AM

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non" <eckchains@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then being horribly punished for their insolence.
                              >
                              > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                              >
                              > Non ;)
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello All,
                              > > It's all interesting mental
                              > > gymnastics and circular
                              > > thinking fueled by myth.
                              > > When reading about lila I
                              > > thought of Lillith and how
                              > > God kept screwing up in
                              > > order to please Adam.
                              > >
                              > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > A couple more things about Lila, I offer a couple contemplation seeds
                              > > > (what I recently found) from the following link.
                              > > >
                              > > > http://www.sam-gill.com/Lecture%20PDFs/Lila%20nataraja%20and%20dancing%20as%20play.pdf
                              > > >
                              > > > "[...] It is perhaps best not to think of this in a temporal and
                              > > > sequential way, but rather in structural terms. Not first there was
                              > > > unity and then there was differentiation into multiplicity, but rather
                              > > > that there is self that is also always other and that such a
                              > > > perspective isn’t possible in any static sense, but only in movement.
                              > > > [... .]"
                              > > >
                              > > > I really liked that excerpt and what it contained.
                              > > >
                              > > > This next excerpt makes things sound a bit confusing, but from that
                              > > > whole page it was the other section I found most interesting.
                              > > >
                              > > > "As we learned from Schiller, Gadamer, and Derrida, play is more akin
                              > > > to the ceaseless structurality of the self-referential paradox that
                              > > > resides, according to Handelman, in the boundary, the passage place.
                              > > > For Schiller play is a “third thing” or “drive” that arises when two
                              > > > drives that are in a relationship in which each enables and controls
                              > > > the other interact in “concert.” This “third thing,” play, is thus more
                              > > > accurately the oscillatory interactive reversible interdependent
                              > > > connection that holds the two together while assuring that neither ever
                              > > > overwhelms the other or that they dissolve their differences into a
                              > > > unity. Play is the way of acknowledging this kind of structurality,
                              > > > this perpetual movement, this magical interrelationship, this
                              > > > vitalizing connectivity that, as Schiller moved us to see, is Beauty."
                              > > >
                              > > > It would probably be easier to look at the first excerpt only. And in
                              > > > that case, would anybody here care to comment?
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > From: etznab18 <etznab@>
                              > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                              > > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > Sent: Tue, Dec 25, 2012 4:33 pm
                              > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                              > > >
                              > > >  
                              > > > "Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in order
                              > > > to experience life to enhance it."
                              > > >
                              > > > This reminds me about the concept of Lila. However, there are several
                              > > > different renditions of what Lila means. The one by Fritjof Capra, from
                              > > > The Tao of Physics (1975) is the one I am most familiar with.
                              > > >
                              > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_%28Hinduism%29
                              > > >
                              > > > I think it might be insightful to learn how the concept of Lila first
                              > > > originated and then evolved.
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"
                              > > > iam999freedom@ wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hi Etznab, You wrote, "What would creation be for a creator if the
                              > > > creator did not know the effect of a creation?"
                              > > > >
                              > > > > In a previous post you wrote, "Here's another thought. Maybe there
                              > > > is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no
                              > > > Gods. And that everything that exists, all individuals, are inherently
                              > > > nothing but the same ONE thing which, for some, is something they
                              > > > sacrifice by living under the illusion of being something less. In this
                              > > > case it is no less than "God" responsible for all good things and all
                              > > > evil things as a matter of individual choice."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > In a previous post I wrote to yours above, "If so, how is life
                              > > > enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go
                              > > > seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and
                              > > > time being One(God).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Perhaps the One takes on the illusion of being something less in
                              > > > order to experience life to enhance it. We make choices to eventually
                              > > > enhance life through love and compassion. We eventually become
                              > > > identified with our choices so that we become love and are able to be
                              > > > it and express it not only in this life but much more fully in the
                              > > > "higher worlds" where there is no space and time and body limitations.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I should mention that there are many things in the book not
                              > > > mentioned in my e-mail due to trying to keep things brief. Also as the
                              > > > author states, the worlds he experienced were expanding and were only
                              > > > a glimpse of the Core.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Sorry for the long post. Also, by love I also mean beauty, joy,
                              > > > compassion, science, sports etc, etc, being infused by love.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I AM
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > About the quote from the book, the word that came to me was
                              > > > karma ...
                              > > > > > in the sense of cause and effect. I am not saying that I
                              > > > necessarily
                              > > > > > believe in all the different religious dogma definitions of
                              > > > karma.
                              > > > > > Rather, I am looking at the word literally and believe that
                              > > > it suggests
                              > > > > > "action" ("kara") and action of a personal nature.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > It just seems rudimentary there be a way to learn about
                              > > > action by the
                              > > > > > effect it has. What would creation be for a creator if the
                              > > > creator did
                              > > > > > not know the effect of a creation? And, perhaps, knowing the
                              > > > effect is
                              > > > > > the way that creators learn? A classical example is that baby
                              > > > learns
                              > > > > > about fire by being burned. In that sense karma, or the
                              > > > action of
                              > > > > > touching fire, is instructive.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I often have heard the saying that people are responsible for
                              > > > > > everything that happens to them, good and bad, as if they had
                              > > > something
                              > > > > > to do with it. However, given free will, one person could
                              > > > create
                              > > > > > something bad (nuclear experiments, tests and bombs) that
                              > > > affects
                              > > > > > millions of people, but I do not necessarily believe that the
                              > > > people
                              > > > > > affected are "responsible" as if they created such things.
                              > > > That they
                              > > > > > created nuclear fallout. Believe it or not, I remember even
                              > > > Harold
                              > > > > > Klemp writing something to this effect years ago which, in so
                              > > > many
                              > > > > > words, sounded like a debunking of predestination and the
                              > > > idea that
                              > > > > > people are "responsible" (it is their karma) for everything
                              > > > that
                              > > > > > happens to them. Instead, I got the impression Harold was
                              > > > saying there
                              > > > > > were examples where other people create things that can
                              > > > affect us, and
                              > > > > > that they are things we are not each personally "responsible"
                              > > > for.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > What I guess I am saying is that free will allows for
                              > > > individuals to
                              > > > > > make "bad" choices, or choices that affect other people in a
                              > > > "bad" way.
                              > > > > > History is filled with examples.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > ***
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about "free
                              > > > will" and
                              > > > > > genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
                              > > > myself: "It
                              > > > > > looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning
                              > > > when I
                              > > > > > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins
                              > > > that had
                              > > > > > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe
                              > > > the twins
                              > > > > > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words)
                              > > > one had a
                              > > > > > different character than the other.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                              > > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                              > > > > > EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm
                              > > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A BOOK ABOUT LOVE
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >  
                              > > > > > I thought I'd share for those who may be interested about a
                              > > > wonderful
                              > > > > > book I've just finished reading. You may have heard about the
                              > > > book
                              > > > > > already as it was written recently in 2012 and received some
                              > > > media
                              > > > > > attention. The name of the book is "Proof of Heaven: A
                              > > > Neurosurgeon's
                              > > > > > Journey into the Afterlife" by Eben Alexander, MD.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > What makes his NDE (near death experience) so interesting is
                              > > > that
                              > > > > > before it he was an atheist and also because the validity of
                              > > > his NDE
                              > > > > > cannot be explained by conventional scientific/medical
                              > > > thought. He was
                              > > > > > attacked by e-coli menningitis and lay in a coma for seven
                              > > > days
                              > > > > > completely brain dead in the areas of the brain whereby a NDE
                              > > > and
                              > > > > > consciousness are considered possible. That he completely
                              > > > recovered is
                              > > > > > also considered to be a medical miracle. In the condition he
                              > > > was in
                              > > > > > there is a 90% death rate and even upon survival living in a
                              > > > vegetative
                              > > > > > state is expected.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > It's interesting how sometimes life works in synchronicity. I
                              > > > placed a
                              > > > > > hold on this book at the library about 3 months ago and just
                              > > > received
                              > > > > > the book this past Friday. In the wake of the Newtown
                              > > > shootings I was
                              > > > > > so shocked and saddened that the core of my experiences and
                              > > > beliefs
                              > > > > > were being crushed.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Even though I am still deeply pained about what happened I
                              > > > now have a
                              > > > > > refreshed look at Ourselves and God (Whole, Love), evil, free
                              > > > will etc.
                              > > > > > I also feel rejeuvinated about the meaning of my life on
                              > > > earth.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > The following is an excerpt from the book that I found richly
                              > > > resonated
                              > > > > > within me:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > "there is not one universe but many - in fact more than I
                              > > > could
                              > > > > > conceive - but that love lay at the center of them all. Evil
                              > > > was
                              > > > > > present in all the other universes as well, but only in the
                              > > > tiniest
                              > > > > > trace amounts. Evil was necessary because without it free
                              > > > will was
                              > > > > > impossible, and without free will there could be no growth -
                              > > > no forward
                              > > > > > movement, no chance for us to become what God longed for us
                              > > > to be.
                              > > > > > Horrible and as-powerful as evil somtimes seemed to be in a
                              > > > world like
                              > > > > > ours, in the larger picture love was overwhelmingly dominant,
                              > > > and it
                              > > > > > would ultimatlely be triumphant."
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > The book has many vivid descriptions of the other worlds,
                              > > > scientific
                              > > > > > debate and spiritual discussion, and is written in both a
                              > > > simple and
                              > > > > > explicit fascinating way that evoked love and compassion.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Perhaps as importantly it emphasises that such worlds/states
                              > > > can be
                              > > > > > experienced with persistence meditative/comptemplative effort.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I Am
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello I AM and All, Yes, religion doesn t allow people to have their own unique experiences with Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc. And, there s always some expert
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
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                                Hello I AM and All,
                                Yes, religion doesn't allow
                                people to have their own
                                unique experiences with
                                Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc.
                                And, there's always some
                                expert to redirect a person
                                into their own niche when
                                each should explore their
                                own path but unite on the
                                inner realms of the same,
                                elusive, invisible Real.

                                Prometheus

                                I AM wrote:
                                Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no
                                proof at all and really makes no sense.

                                On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced
                                or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that
                                everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into
                                multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.

                                I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very
                                clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were
                                souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely
                                one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot
                                of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite
                                dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and
                                this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about
                                being in such an apathetic state.

                                Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases
                                thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were
                                quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least
                                they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the
                                souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds
                                seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well
                                because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured
                                that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of
                                love with more freedom of expression.

                                Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the
                                early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were
                                created.

                                I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life
                                beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings
                                from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to
                                instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the
                                time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that
                                dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.

                                When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot
                                of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but
                                certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I
                                tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with
                                me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it
                                all.

                                I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first
                                place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to
                                perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.

                                I AM


                                prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello All,
                                > It's all interesting mental
                                > gymnastics and circular
                                > thinking fueled by myth.
                                > When reading about lila I
                                > thought of Lillith and how
                                > God kept screwing up in
                                > order to please Adam.
                                >
                                http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                              • iam999freedom
                                Thanks for your comments Prometheus; they were meaningful to me. I d like to share a link for those who may enjoy beautiful, interesting photos in the world
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
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                                  Thanks for your comments Prometheus; they were meaningful to me.

                                  I'd like to share a link for those who may enjoy beautiful, interesting photos in the world about nature, people, things, etc. There's 500 new photos that automatically refresh every day so it never gets boring. I usually quickly browse through about 50-100 a day which only takes about 5-10 minutes. I find that it helps me appreciate the wonderful aspects of this world which can easily be lost amidst a lot of the negativity. If you choose to check it out it is:

                                  http://www.flickriver.com/explore/interesting/24hours/


                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello I AM and All,
                                  > Yes, religion doesn't allow
                                  > people to have their own
                                  > unique experiences with
                                  > Self, Divinity, Spirit, etc.
                                  > And, there's always some
                                  > expert to redirect a person
                                  > into their own niche when
                                  > each should explore their
                                  > own path but unite on the
                                  > inner realms of the same,
                                  > elusive, invisible Real.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  > I AM wrote:
                                  > Yes Prometheus the story of Lillith imo also is a lot of mythology which has no
                                  > proof at all and really makes no sense.
                                  >
                                  > On the other hand the story of Lila I can't say from anything I've experienced
                                  > or read that's resonated with me that would convince me either way that
                                  > everything was one in the beginning and then became differentiated into
                                  > multiplicity or rather there is self that is always and has always been other.
                                  >
                                  > I had an interesting dream when I was about 15 years old. The dream was very
                                  > clear and understandable. There was a being of light and love and there were
                                  > souls of individual unique light that were an extended part but not completely
                                  > one with this being of light and love. I was quite happy because I felt a lot
                                  > of love and light emanating from this being. Many of the other souls were quite
                                  > dormant and apathetic. All of a sudden there was a booming roar of thunder and
                                  > this being became quite angry because of the dormant souls not being happy about
                                  > being in such an apathetic state.
                                  >
                                  > Suddenly there was a dark abyss that appeared and souls were being in some cases
                                  > thrown and in other cases going quite willingly into this darkness. Some were
                                  > quite happy with the violence and hate that appeared to await them for at least
                                  > they would have a chance to experience more than mere apathy. I was one of the
                                  > souls who was literally shaken and afraid of going into these dark worlds
                                  > seemingly devoid of love. However I became aware that I had to go as well
                                  > because I hadn't learned to share the love I was receiving. I was also assured
                                  > that one day with experience and learning I would return to a better world of
                                  > love with more freedom of expression.
                                  >
                                  > Upon awakening when I reflected on that dream I thought that it symbolized the
                                  > early days of creation before time and space (the worlds of darkness) were
                                  > created.
                                  >
                                  > I should mention that during that period in my life I was learning about life
                                  > beyond the physical state of consciousness through OBE's and also with beings
                                  > from the other side. Whether this dream was "mocked up" by them in order to
                                  > instill with me their interpretation of creation I am not sure although at the
                                  > time I was quite certain of the authenticity of the dream. Also prior to that
                                  > dream I did not read one iota of eastern mystical teaching.
                                  >
                                  > When I read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife" a lot
                                  > of the book (for obvious reasons of brevity I only included an excerpt), but
                                  > certainly not all of the book, was very similar to my own experiences. And I
                                  > tend to try and synthesize what I read into what I experience or resonates with
                                  > me. The most important part of the book for me is that Love is at the core of it
                                  > all.
                                  >
                                  > I've never been quite sure of why this being would individualize in the first
                                  > place if that's what it did. I've read that it was kind of an experiment to
                                  > perhaps relieve its own stagnation. Don't know.
                                  >
                                  > I AM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello All,
                                  > > It's all interesting mental
                                  > > gymnastics and circular
                                  > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                  > > When reading about lila I
                                  > > thought of Lillith and how
                                  > > God kept screwing up in
                                  > > order to please Adam.
                                  > >
                                  > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  >
                                • prometheus_973
                                  Hello Etznab and All, Yes, the gospel here: http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm had a very warped way of viewing women as well. I had read, elsewhere, that Lilith was
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
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                                    Hello Etznab and All,
                                    Yes, the gospel here:
                                    http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                    had a very warped way
                                    of viewing women as
                                    well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                    that Lilith was created
                                    in the same way as Adam
                                    and was his equal, but
                                    she didn't want to stay
                                    with Adam, she was more
                                    spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                    a tool, was domineering
                                    and only wanted sex.
                                    Thus, Lilith asked God
                                    if she could be with
                                    him in Heaven and this
                                    was granted. Therefore,
                                    Lilith was not a demon
                                    and evil but was actually
                                    very spiritual.

                                    The HBO series "True Blood"
                                    has a different take on Lilith.
                                    She was the first Vampire and
                                    God's first, perfect, creation.

                                    Prometheus

                                    etznab wrote:
                                    Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                    the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                    eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                    because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                    myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                    tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                    They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                    a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:

                                    "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                    charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                    choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"

                                    https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                    !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                    82gz2n-WqA

                                    Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                    name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?

                                    I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                    in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                    versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                    people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                    "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                    children and teach them to believe as well.

                                    As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                    (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                    within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                    of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                    their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                    where and how they even evolved.

                                    ***

                                    For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                    the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                    many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                    ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.

                                    I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                    others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                    America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                    the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                    religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                    IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                    historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                    believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.



                                    Non wrote:
                                    Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                    God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                    for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                    to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                    variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                    complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                    being horribly punished for their insolence.

                                    I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                    by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.

                                    Non ;)


                                    <prometheus wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello All,
                                    > It's all interesting mental
                                    > gymnastics and circular
                                    > thinking fueled by myth.
                                    > When reading about lila I
                                    > thought of Lillith and how
                                    > God kept screwing up in
                                    > order to please Adam.
                                    >
                                    http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                  • iam999freedom
                                    The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure). The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 27, 2012
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                                      The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).

                                      The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.

                                      The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.

                                      It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL

                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello Etznab and All,
                                      > Yes, the gospel here:
                                      > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                      > had a very warped way
                                      > of viewing women as
                                      > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                      > that Lilith was created
                                      > in the same way as Adam
                                      > and was his equal, but
                                      > she didn't want to stay
                                      > with Adam, she was more
                                      > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                      > a tool, was domineering
                                      > and only wanted sex.
                                      > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                      > if she could be with
                                      > him in Heaven and this
                                      > was granted. Therefore,
                                      > Lilith was not a demon
                                      > and evil but was actually
                                      > very spiritual.
                                      >
                                      > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                      > has a different take on Lilith.
                                      > She was the first Vampire and
                                      > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      > etznab wrote:
                                      > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                      > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                      > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                      > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                      > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                      > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                      > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                      > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                      >
                                      > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                      > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                      > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                      >
                                      > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                      > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                      > 82gz2n-WqA
                                      >
                                      > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                      > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                      >
                                      > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                      > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                      > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                      > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                      > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                      > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                      >
                                      > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                      > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                      > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                      > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                      > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                      > where and how they even evolved.
                                      >
                                      > ***
                                      >
                                      > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                      > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                      > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                      > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                      >
                                      > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                      > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                      > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                      > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                      > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                      > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                      > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                      > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Non wrote:
                                      > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                      > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                      > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                      > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                      > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                      > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                      > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                      >
                                      > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                      > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                      >
                                      > Non ;)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > <prometheus wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello All,
                                      > > It's all interesting mental
                                      > > gymnastics and circular
                                      > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                      > > When reading about lila I
                                      > > thought of Lillith and how
                                      > > God kept screwing up in
                                      > > order to please Adam.
                                      > >
                                      > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                      >
                                    • etznab18
                                      Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I ve never known this to happen so much as in the last
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 30, 2012
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                                        Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                                        >
                                        > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                                        >
                                        > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                                        >
                                        > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                                        >
                                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                        > > Yes, the gospel here:
                                        > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                        > > had a very warped way
                                        > > of viewing women as
                                        > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                        > > that Lilith was created
                                        > > in the same way as Adam
                                        > > and was his equal, but
                                        > > she didn't want to stay
                                        > > with Adam, she was more
                                        > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                        > > a tool, was domineering
                                        > > and only wanted sex.
                                        > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                        > > if she could be with
                                        > > him in Heaven and this
                                        > > was granted. Therefore,
                                        > > Lilith was not a demon
                                        > > and evil but was actually
                                        > > very spiritual.
                                        > >
                                        > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                        > > has a different take on Lilith.
                                        > > She was the first Vampire and
                                        > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        > > etznab wrote:
                                        > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                        > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                        > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                        > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                        > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                        > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                        > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                        > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                        > >
                                        > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                        > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                        > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                        > >
                                        > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                        > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                        > > 82gz2n-WqA
                                        > >
                                        > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                        > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                        > >
                                        > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                        > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                        > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                        > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                        > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                        > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                        > >
                                        > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                        > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                        > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                        > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                        > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                        > > where and how they even evolved.
                                        > >
                                        > > ***
                                        > >
                                        > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                        > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                        > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                        > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                        > >
                                        > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                        > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                        > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                        > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                        > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                        > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                        > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                        > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Non wrote:
                                        > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                        > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                        > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                        > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                        > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                        > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                        > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                        > >
                                        > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                        > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                        > >
                                        > > Non ;)
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > <prometheus wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hello All,
                                        > > > It's all interesting mental
                                        > > > gymnastics and circular
                                        > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                        > > > When reading about lila I
                                        > > > thought of Lillith and how
                                        > > > God kept screwing up in
                                        > > > order to please Adam.
                                        > > >
                                        > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • iam999freedom
                                        Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking). Anyway, happy New Year to you and All! Cheers, I AM
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jan 2, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking).

                                          Anyway, happy New Year to you and All!

                                          Cheers,
                                          I AM

                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!
                                          >
                                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                                          > >
                                          > > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                                          > >
                                          > > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                                          > >
                                          > > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                          > > > Yes, the gospel here:
                                          > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                          > > > had a very warped way
                                          > > > of viewing women as
                                          > > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                          > > > that Lilith was created
                                          > > > in the same way as Adam
                                          > > > and was his equal, but
                                          > > > she didn't want to stay
                                          > > > with Adam, she was more
                                          > > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                          > > > a tool, was domineering
                                          > > > and only wanted sex.
                                          > > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                          > > > if she could be with
                                          > > > him in Heaven and this
                                          > > > was granted. Therefore,
                                          > > > Lilith was not a demon
                                          > > > and evil but was actually
                                          > > > very spiritual.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                          > > > has a different take on Lilith.
                                          > > > She was the first Vampire and
                                          > > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Prometheus
                                          > > >
                                          > > > etznab wrote:
                                          > > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                          > > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                          > > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                          > > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                          > > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                          > > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                          > > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                          > > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                          > > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                          > > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                          > > >
                                          > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                          > > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                          > > > 82gz2n-WqA
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                          > > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                          > > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                          > > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                          > > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                          > > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                          > > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                          > > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                          > > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                          > > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                          > > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                          > > > where and how they even evolved.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > ***
                                          > > >
                                          > > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                          > > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                          > > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                          > > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                          > > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                          > > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                          > > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                          > > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                          > > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                          > > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                          > > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Non wrote:
                                          > > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                          > > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                          > > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                          > > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                          > > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                          > > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                          > > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                          > > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Non ;)
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > <prometheus wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Hello All,
                                          > > > > It's all interesting mental
                                          > > > > gymnastics and circular
                                          > > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                          > > > > When reading about lila I
                                          > > > > thought of Lillith and how
                                          > > > > God kept screwing up in
                                          > > > > order to please Adam.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • etznab18
                                          I ve never had so much trouble with a news server than with Yahoo. Just found out my account has been bouncing emails again (which means I don t get the
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Jan 10, 2013
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I've never had so much trouble with a news server than with Yahoo. Just found out my account has been bouncing emails again (which means I don't get the messages) since December 30th.

                                            Now I have to go back and read about two weeks of posts.

                                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of my dark side. (half-joking).
                                            >
                                            > Anyway, happy New Year to you and All!
                                            >
                                            > Cheers,
                                            > I AM
                                            >
                                            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment, yeah sure).
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural phenomenon.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hello Etznab and All,
                                            > > > > Yes, the gospel here:
                                            > > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                            > > > > had a very warped way
                                            > > > > of viewing women as
                                            > > > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
                                            > > > > that Lilith was created
                                            > > > > in the same way as Adam
                                            > > > > and was his equal, but
                                            > > > > she didn't want to stay
                                            > > > > with Adam, she was more
                                            > > > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
                                            > > > > a tool, was domineering
                                            > > > > and only wanted sex.
                                            > > > > Thus, Lilith asked God
                                            > > > > if she could be with
                                            > > > > him in Heaven and this
                                            > > > > was granted. Therefore,
                                            > > > > Lilith was not a demon
                                            > > > > and evil but was actually
                                            > > > > very spiritual.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > The HBO series "True Blood"
                                            > > > > has a different take on Lilith.
                                            > > > > She was the first Vampire and
                                            > > > > God's first, perfect, creation.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Prometheus
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > etznab wrote:
                                            > > > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
                                            > > > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
                                            > > > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
                                            > > > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
                                            > > > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
                                            > > > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
                                            > > > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
                                            > > > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
                                            > > > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
                                            > > > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
                                            > > > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
                                            > > > > 82gz2n-WqA
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
                                            > > > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
                                            > > > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
                                            > > > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
                                            > > > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
                                            > > > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
                                            > > > > children and teach them to believe as well.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
                                            > > > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
                                            > > > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
                                            > > > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
                                            > > > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
                                            > > > > where and how they even evolved.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > ***
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
                                            > > > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
                                            > > > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
                                            > > > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
                                            > > > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
                                            > > > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
                                            > > > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
                                            > > > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
                                            > > > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
                                            > > > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
                                            > > > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Non wrote:
                                            > > > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
                                            > > > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
                                            > > > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
                                            > > > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
                                            > > > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
                                            > > > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
                                            > > > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
                                            > > > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Non ;)
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > > Hello All,
                                            > > > > > It's all interesting mental
                                            > > > > > gymnastics and circular
                                            > > > > > thinking fueled by myth.
                                            > > > > > When reading about lila I
                                            > > > > > thought of Lillith and how
                                            > > > > > God kept screwing up in
                                            > > > > > order to please Adam.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
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