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Re: It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings

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  • iam999freedom
    Sounds like a another critique of mans fallenness and incapacity to establish a sane world. Have heard of all this before which is why I am so obsessed with
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 19, 2012
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      Sounds like a another critique of mans' fallenness and incapacity to establish a sane world. Have heard of all this before which is why I am so obsessed with coming to a sense of meaningfullness about it all. Will probably get the book hoping it probes a wide spectrum of other issues which helps to "explain the madness".

      Btw, thanks to Prometheus for allowing us to explore these issues on this website. I really feel that part of the cult recovery process is to establish a sense of stability and meaning beyond the cult experience.

      Freedom


      "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
      >
      > Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.
      >
      >   "For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of matter. The second question then is: Where did this matter come from? Though scoffed at but a few years ago, it is now known that matter is but 'congealed energy.' This implies a congealing process and a pre-physical source of matter, something like that of the nonphysical electron. Dr I. Langmuir called this source the quantel, a significant term and we shall use it. A more familiar name, however, is etheric energy. But is this the ultimate source of matter? May it not be but one of the many vibratory rates of energy? It is." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 14]
      >
      >   "... there has not been a genuine metaphysician in the world for six thousand years. If there had been, he would have seen the fallacies of both science and religion and exposed them." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 16]
      >
      > "Would you call a humanity civilized that has a hundred wars in as many years? that spends trillions of dollars on murder weapons while its schools and hospitals close for want of funds? that lets half its people starve while the other half sickens from overeating? Would you call a humanity enlightened that poisons the air, the water and the soil? that doesn't know mythology from history?, or even what it exists for? This is the animal estate." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 75]
      >
      > "The cunning hands of the priests perverted the entire Bible. It was they who made the redaction after the so-called Exilic period, and by that time they were the sole authority. Their purpose was the creation of a supernatural basis for a religion, hence the perversion of the original truth, than which there is no greater crime. As Dr. Johnson said: 'I know not any crime so great that a man could contrive to commit as poisoning the source of eternal truth.' And according to Kipling, 'Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind.' And the scriptures are the most deadly concoction of them all. They are the prescientific opiates, tranquilizers and placebos." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 82]
      >
      >   "If man had divine teachers and divine knowledge in the beginning how did he get like Neanderthal, or even us? This is Devolution." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 102]
      >
      > ***
      >
      > One thing this book talked about was Involution vs. Evolution. I think it possible that Spirit can become involved with Matter, but I can't really say for sure. It sounds rather paradoxical to me.
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
      > >
      > > I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
      > > evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
      > > with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
      > > interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
      > > M. Graham
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
      > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
      > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
      > >
      > >  
      > > Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
      > > influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
      > > happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
      > > crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
      > > natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
      > > pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
      > > existence.
      > >
      > > I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
      > > reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
      > > make a difficult issue acceptable.
      > >
      > > Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
      > > speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
      > > consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.
      > >
      > > Freedom
      > >
      > > What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
      > > influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
      > > experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
      > > link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
      > > instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
      > > is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
      > > ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
      > > higher consciousness.
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: iam999freedom
      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      > >
      > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
      > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
      > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
      > >
      > >  
      > > Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
      > > understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
      > > comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
      > > evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
      > > in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
      > >
      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
      > > Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
      > > exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
      > > which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
      > > illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
      > > "God"
      > > responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
      > > individual choice.
      > >
      > > Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
      > > would seem to indicate otherwise.
      > >
      > > Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
      > > looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
      > > itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
      > > realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
      > > know
      > > it.
      > >
      > > Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
      > > can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
      > > But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
      > > and
      > > the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
      > > myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
      > > change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
      > > So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
      > > is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.
      > >
      > > And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
      > > not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
      > > identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
      > > identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
      > > the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
      > > belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
      > > believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: iam999freedom
      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      > >
      > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
      > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
      > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
      > >
      > >  
      > > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
      > > think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
      > > world.
      > >
      > > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
      > > knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
      > > shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
      > > and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
      > > to
      > > explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
      > >
      > > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
      > > play
      > > (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
      > > of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
      > > indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
      > > me to thinks:
      > > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
      > > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
      > >
      > > Any thoughts from others?
      > >
      > > Sincerely,
      > > Freedom
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
      > > jepfeiffer@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
      > > religious leaders would focus on that angle.
      > > >  
      > > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
      > > children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
      > > trying to deter him from killing those children.
      > > >  
      > > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
      > > aside
      > > to
      > > save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
      > > demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
      > > conditions. 
      > > >  
      > > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
      > > day find peace concerning it
      > > >
      > > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
      > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
      > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
      > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >  
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hello All,
      > > > I've been watching the
      > > > TV coverage of this tragedy
      > > > for a few days now. It
      > > > makes one wonder how
      > > > a mentally deranged
      > > > young man can do such
      > > > evil and to such innocent
      > > > children... face-to-face!
      > > >
      > > > However, I found the
      > > > religious take on all
      > > > of it to be quite strange.
      > > > Some of the comments
      > > > in the prayers of the
      > > > ministers were odd.
      > > >
      > > > One cleric said that
      > > > it happened in order
      > > > to have people to
      > > > question life and to
      > > > be able to go through
      > > > their own transformation.
      > > > Thus, it's a test!
      > > >
      > > > One guy mentioned that
      > > > the children would not
      > > > have to experience sin.
      > > >
      > > > "After passion comes
      > > > compassion."
      > > >
      > > > I'm not sure why people
      > > > were praying to God and
      > > > talking to or beseeching
      > > > God when he didn't offer
      > > > up any protection to these
      > > > innocent children. But,
      > > > are innocent children in
      > > > other countries protected
      > > > from harm? It's like how
      > > > Klemp protects his eckists.
      > > >
      > > > The Governor of CT. sounded
      > > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
      > > > when talking about after Winter
      > > > there will be Spring and growth.
      > > >
      > > > There is belief that a grander
      > > > plan is afoot and that it won't
      > > > be revealed until you can no
      > > > longer speak and share and
      > > > this gives those left hope that
      > > > the promises will be fulfilled.
      > > >
      > > > I'm thinking that Eckists
      > > > are probably sad, too, but
      > > > also think that they see it
      > > > as karma being karma and
      > > > that there is no death.
      > > >
      > > > "What is seen is temporary
      > > > but what is unseen is eternal."
      > > >
      > > > Do clerics merely repeat what
      > > > we already know or is it merely
      > > > a pep talk while reminding
      > > > us of what we are supposed
      > > > to believe? Or, do they see
      > > > themselves as the experts
      > > > who have memorized scripture,
      > > > dress up in special garments,
      > > > while we regular people are
      > > > the ignorant sheep meant to
      > > > blindly follow?
      > > >
      > > > It is interesting to see a
      > > > commonality of sorts, but
      > > > individual choice seems to
      > > > take precedence as it always
      > > > will.
      > > >
      > > > prometheus
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Non
      I think humans are still in the early stages of evolving. We are arrogant about our status in the world, imo, and are still learning how to be better and more
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 20, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        I think humans are still in the early stages of evolving. We are arrogant about our status in the world, imo, and are still learning how to be better and more compassionate. Within us all is a destructive force and a life/creative force. And we are still very much a part of our animal ancestry.

        It is interesting that some of these horrendous acts are being committed by very intelligent people who lack a sense of feeling and caring, and were very shy and sensitive. Gifted children often lack emotional integrity and are very often confused and even in need of Psychotherapy, especially if they come from a family or school that does not know how to handle teaching emotional intelligence. Something to consider.

        Non ;)

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
        >
        > Sounds like a another critique of mans' fallenness and incapacity to establish a sane world. Have heard of all this before which is why I am so obsessed with coming to a sense of meaningfullness about it all. Will probably get the book hoping it probes a wide spectrum of other issues which helps to "explain the madness".
        >
        > Btw, thanks to Prometheus for allowing us to explore these issues on this website. I really feel that part of the cult recovery process is to establish a sense of stability and meaning beyond the cult experience.
        >
        > Freedom
        >
        >
        > "etznab18" <etznab@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.
        > >
        > >   "For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of matter. The second question then is: Where did this matter come from? Though scoffed at but a few years ago, it is now known that matter is but 'congealed energy.' This implies a congealing process and a pre-physical source of matter, something like that of the nonphysical electron. Dr I. Langmuir called this source the quantel, a significant term and we shall use it. A more familiar name, however, is etheric energy. But is this the ultimate source of matter? May it not be but one of the many vibratory rates of energy? It is." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 14]
        > >
        > >   "... there has not been a genuine metaphysician in the world for six thousand years. If there had been, he would have seen the fallacies of both science and religion and exposed them." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 16]
        > >
        > > "Would you call a humanity civilized that has a hundred wars in as many years? that spends trillions of dollars on murder weapons while its schools and hospitals close for want of funds? that lets half its people starve while the other half sickens from overeating? Would you call a humanity enlightened that poisons the air, the water and the soil? that doesn't know mythology from history?, or even what it exists for? This is the animal estate." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 75]
        > >
        > > "The cunning hands of the priests perverted the entire Bible. It was they who made the redaction after the so-called Exilic period, and by that time they were the sole authority. Their purpose was the creation of a supernatural basis for a religion, hence the perversion of the original truth, than which there is no greater crime. As Dr. Johnson said: 'I know not any crime so great that a man could contrive to commit as poisoning the source of eternal truth.' And according to Kipling, 'Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind.' And the scriptures are the most deadly concoction of them all. They are the prescientific opiates, tranquilizers and placebos." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 82]
        > >
        > >   "If man had divine teachers and divine knowledge in the beginning how did he get like Neanderthal, or even us? This is Devolution." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 102]
        > >
        > > ***
        > >
        > > One thing this book talked about was Involution vs. Evolution. I think it possible that Spirit can become involved with Matter, but I can't really say for sure. It sounds rather paradoxical to me.
        > >
        > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
        > > > evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
        > > > with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
        > > > interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
        > > > M. Graham
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
        > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        > > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
        > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
        > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
        > > >
        > > >  
        > > > Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
        > > > influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
        > > > happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
        > > > crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
        > > > natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
        > > > pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
        > > > existence.
        > > >
        > > > I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
        > > > reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
        > > > make a difficult issue acceptable.
        > > >
        > > > Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
        > > > speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
        > > > consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.
        > > >
        > > > Freedom
        > > >
        > > > What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
        > > > influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
        > > > experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
        > > > link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
        > > > instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
        > > > is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
        > > > ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
        > > > higher consciousness.
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: iam999freedom
        > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        > > >
        > > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
        > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
        > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
        > > >
        > > >  
        > > > Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
        > > > understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
        > > > comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
        > > > evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
        > > > in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
        > > >
        > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
        > > > Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
        > > > exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
        > > > which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
        > > > illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
        > > > "God"
        > > > responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
        > > > individual choice.
        > > >
        > > > Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
        > > > would seem to indicate otherwise.
        > > >
        > > > Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
        > > > looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
        > > > itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
        > > > realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
        > > > know
        > > > it.
        > > >
        > > > Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
        > > > can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
        > > > But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
        > > > and
        > > > the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
        > > > myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
        > > > change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
        > > > So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
        > > > is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.
        > > >
        > > > And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
        > > > not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
        > > > identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
        > > > identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
        > > > the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
        > > > belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
        > > > believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: iam999freedom
        > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        > > >
        > > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
        > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
        > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
        > > >
        > > >  
        > > > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
        > > > think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
        > > > world.
        > > >
        > > > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
        > > > knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
        > > > shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
        > > > and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
        > > > to
        > > > explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
        > > >
        > > > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
        > > > play
        > > > (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
        > > > of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
        > > > indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
        > > > me to thinks:
        > > > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
        > > > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
        > > >
        > > > Any thoughts from others?
        > > >
        > > > Sincerely,
        > > > Freedom
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
        > > > jepfeiffer@ wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
        > > > religious leaders would focus on that angle.
        > > > >  
        > > > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
        > > > children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
        > > > trying to deter him from killing those children.
        > > > >  
        > > > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
        > > > aside
        > > > to
        > > > save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
        > > > demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
        > > > conditions. 
        > > > >  
        > > > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
        > > > day find peace concerning it
        > > > >
        > > > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
        > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
        > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
        > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >  
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Hello All,
        > > > > I've been watching the
        > > > > TV coverage of this tragedy
        > > > > for a few days now. It
        > > > > makes one wonder how
        > > > > a mentally deranged
        > > > > young man can do such
        > > > > evil and to such innocent
        > > > > children... face-to-face!
        > > > >
        > > > > However, I found the
        > > > > religious take on all
        > > > > of it to be quite strange.
        > > > > Some of the comments
        > > > > in the prayers of the
        > > > > ministers were odd.
        > > > >
        > > > > One cleric said that
        > > > > it happened in order
        > > > > to have people to
        > > > > question life and to
        > > > > be able to go through
        > > > > their own transformation.
        > > > > Thus, it's a test!
        > > > >
        > > > > One guy mentioned that
        > > > > the children would not
        > > > > have to experience sin.
        > > > >
        > > > > "After passion comes
        > > > > compassion."
        > > > >
        > > > > I'm not sure why people
        > > > > were praying to God and
        > > > > talking to or beseeching
        > > > > God when he didn't offer
        > > > > up any protection to these
        > > > > innocent children. But,
        > > > > are innocent children in
        > > > > other countries protected
        > > > > from harm? It's like how
        > > > > Klemp protects his eckists.
        > > > >
        > > > > The Governor of CT. sounded
        > > > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
        > > > > when talking about after Winter
        > > > > there will be Spring and growth.
        > > > >
        > > > > There is belief that a grander
        > > > > plan is afoot and that it won't
        > > > > be revealed until you can no
        > > > > longer speak and share and
        > > > > this gives those left hope that
        > > > > the promises will be fulfilled.
        > > > >
        > > > > I'm thinking that Eckists
        > > > > are probably sad, too, but
        > > > > also think that they see it
        > > > > as karma being karma and
        > > > > that there is no death.
        > > > >
        > > > > "What is seen is temporary
        > > > > but what is unseen is eternal."
        > > > >
        > > > > Do clerics merely repeat what
        > > > > we already know or is it merely
        > > > > a pep talk while reminding
        > > > > us of what we are supposed
        > > > > to believe? Or, do they see
        > > > > themselves as the experts
        > > > > who have memorized scripture,
        > > > > dress up in special garments,
        > > > > while we regular people are
        > > > > the ignorant sheep meant to
        > > > > blindly follow?
        > > > >
        > > > > It is interesting to see a
        > > > > commonality of sorts, but
        > > > > individual choice seems to
        > > > > take precedence as it always
        > > > > will.
        > > > >
        > > > > prometheus
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        Wow etznab, that s really deep.  Lots to think about.  ... From: etznab@aol.com Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It s So Sad
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 22, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Wow etznab, that's really deep.  Lots to think about. 

          --- On Tue, 12/18/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

          From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, December 18, 2012, 1:51 AM

           
          Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
          Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
          exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
          which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
          illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God"
          responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
          individual choice.

          Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
          would seem to indicate otherwise.

          Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
          looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
          itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
          realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we know
          it.

          Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
          can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
          But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution and
          the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
          myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
          change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
          So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
          is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

          And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
          not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
          identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
          identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
          the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
          belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
          believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
          Newtown, CT. Shootings

           
          Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
          think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this world.

          When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
          knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
          shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
          and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used to
          explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

          However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the play
          (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
          of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
          indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
          me to thinks:
          1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
          2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

          Any thoughts from others?

          Sincerely,
          Freedom

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
          &lt;jepfeiffer@...&gt; wrote:
          &gt;
          &gt; Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
          religious leaders would focus on that angle.
          &gt;  
          &gt; There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
          children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
          trying to deter him from killing those children.
          &gt;  
          &gt; To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside to
          save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
          demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
          &gt;  
          &gt; Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
          day find peace concerning it
          &gt;
          &gt; --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@...&gt;
          wrote:
          &gt;
          &gt;
          &gt; From: prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@...&gt;
          &gt; Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
          Newtown, CT. Shootings
          &gt; To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          &gt; Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
          &gt;
          &gt;
          &gt;
          &gt;  
          &gt;
          &gt;
          &gt;
          &gt; Hello All,
          &gt; I've been watching the
          &gt; TV coverage of this tragedy
          &gt; for a few days now. It
          &gt; makes one wonder how
          &gt; a mentally deranged
          &gt; young man can do such
          &gt; evil and to such innocent
          &gt; children... face-to-face!
          &gt;
          &gt; However, I found the
          &gt; religious take on all
          &gt; of it to be quite strange.
          &gt; Some of the comments
          &gt; in the prayers of the
          &gt; ministers were odd.
          &gt;
          &gt; One cleric said that
          &gt; it happened in order
          &gt; to have people to
          &gt; question life and to
          &gt; be able to go through
          &gt; their own transformation.
          &gt; Thus, it's a test!
          &gt;
          &gt; One guy mentioned that
          &gt; the children would not
          &gt; have to experience sin.
          &gt;
          &gt; "After passion comes
          &gt; compassion."
          &gt;
          &gt; I'm not sure why people
          &gt; were praying to God and
          &gt; talking to or beseeching
          &gt; God when he didn't offer
          &gt; up any protection to these
          &gt; innocent children. But,
          &gt; are innocent children in
          &gt; other countries protected
          &gt; from harm? It's like how
          &gt; Klemp protects his eckists.
          &gt;
          &gt; The Governor of CT. sounded
          &gt; like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
          &gt; when talking about after Winter
          &gt; there will be Spring and growth.
          &gt;
          &gt; There is belief that a grander
          &gt; plan is afoot and that it won't
          &gt; be revealed until you can no
          &gt; longer speak and share and
          &gt; this gives those left hope that
          &gt; the promises will be fulfilled.
          &gt;
          &gt; I'm thinking that Eckists
          &gt; are probably sad, too, but
          &gt; also think that they see it
          &gt; as karma being karma and
          &gt; that there is no death.
          &gt;
          &gt; "What is seen is temporary
          &gt; but what is unseen is eternal."
          &gt;
          &gt; Do clerics merely repeat what
          &gt; we already know or is it merely
          &gt; a pep talk while reminding
          &gt; us of what we are supposed
          &gt; to believe? Or, do they see
          &gt; themselves as the experts
          &gt; who have memorized scripture,
          &gt; dress up in special garments,
          &gt; while we regular people are
          &gt; the ignorant sheep meant to
          &gt; blindly follow?
          &gt;
          &gt; It is interesting to see a
          &gt; commonality of sorts, but
          &gt; individual choice seems to
          &gt; take precedence as it always
          &gt; will.
          &gt;
          &gt; prometheus
          &gt;

        • harrisonferrel
          My thoughts on this? Much time is spent with suppositions. Does god exist? Most likely not. There is no evidence except what people rationalize is evidence. I
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 4, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            My thoughts on this?

            Much time is spent with suppositions. Does god exist? Most likely not. There is no evidence except what people rationalize is evidence. I agree about the lack of logic and posit: If god is all knowing all seeing and all loving, then there is a huge problem. No evil or suffering would take place. Ever. I tend to agree with Christopher Hitchens that God is Not Great. God would have to be a psychopath to allow what goes on here. The only explanations as to why are merely rationalizations in fear of letting go of this primitive idea that has never been substantiated.

            I have no belief in god, karma, spirit, etc. And it feels good. I remain open minded but thus far cannot commit to ideas that are without basis. How does this make me feel? Free. God was invented by man. If you understand history you will see that the idea of god was an evolution and not an epiphany. It's a pretty weak and immature worldview that leads one to think that there is a force that guides everything and has some sort of intelligence. To paraphrase Sam Harris, Just because we don't know what the answer is does not mean that there is no answer. I would rather admit that I am ignorant or uninformed than to say there is a god or supernatural world.

            And, yes, I've had plenty of "experiences," but now I understand what they were and I cannot say they were anything otherworldly.


            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this world.
            >
            > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used to explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
            >
            > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the play (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads me to thinks:
            > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
            > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
            >
            > Any thoughts from others?
            >
            > Sincerely,
            > Freedom
            >
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think religious leaders would focus on that angle.
            > >  
            > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed trying to deter him from killing those children.
            > >  
            > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside to save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
            > >  
            > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one day find peace concerning it
            > >
            > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
            > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings
            > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >  
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Hello All,
            > > I've been watching the
            > > TV coverage of this tragedy
            > > for a few days now. It
            > > makes one wonder how
            > > a mentally deranged
            > > young man can do such
            > > evil and to such innocent
            > > children... face-to-face!
            > >
            > > However, I found the
            > > religious take on all
            > > of it to be quite strange.
            > > Some of the comments
            > > in the prayers of the
            > > ministers were odd.
            > >
            > > One cleric said that
            > > it happened in order
            > > to have people to
            > > question life and to
            > > be able to go through
            > > their own transformation.
            > > Thus, it's a test!
            > >
            > > One guy mentioned that
            > > the children would not
            > > have to experience sin.
            > >
            > > "After passion comes
            > > compassion."
            > >
            > > I'm not sure why people
            > > were praying to God and
            > > talking to or beseeching
            > > God when he didn't offer
            > > up any protection to these
            > > innocent children. But,
            > > are innocent children in
            > > other countries protected
            > > from harm? It's like how
            > > Klemp protects his eckists.
            > >
            > > The Governor of CT. sounded
            > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
            > > when talking about after Winter
            > > there will be Spring and growth.
            > >
            > > There is belief that a grander
            > > plan is afoot and that it won't
            > > be revealed until you can no
            > > longer speak and share and
            > > this gives those left hope that
            > > the promises will be fulfilled.
            > >
            > > I'm thinking that Eckists
            > > are probably sad, too, but
            > > also think that they see it
            > > as karma being karma and
            > > that there is no death.
            > >
            > > "What is seen is temporary
            > > but what is unseen is eternal."
            > >
            > > Do clerics merely repeat what
            > > we already know or is it merely
            > > a pep talk while reminding
            > > us of what we are supposed
            > > to believe? Or, do they see
            > > themselves as the experts
            > > who have memorized scripture,
            > > dress up in special garments,
            > > while we regular people are
            > > the ignorant sheep meant to
            > > blindly follow?
            > >
            > > It is interesting to see a
            > > commonality of sorts, but
            > > individual choice seems to
            > > take precedence as it always
            > > will.
            > >
            > > prometheus
            > >
            >
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