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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings

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  • etznab@aol.com
    The mother reportedly took her son to the firing range and he was taught how to shoot the guns. So he knew how to use them. Something about this whole story
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 18, 2012
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      The mother reportedly took her son to the firing range and he was
      taught how to shoot the guns. So he knew how to use them.

      Something about this whole story just doesn't sound right to me. I
      think there are probably other missing pieces.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:30 am
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
      Newtown, CT. Shootings

       
      Hello Non and All,
      When one looks at the
      mother of the shooter
      she appears different
      to different people.

      She was intelligent,
      wealthier than most,
      and she was generous.
      She could have passed
      as a saint.

      Then, there was the
      private side where
      she seemed to share
      a similar paranoia as
      her one son displayed.
      She didn't want to talk
      about getting help for
      him, but just hoped
      and prayed that he
      would magically
      grow out of it.

      She owned several
      guns and was in the
      doomsday prepper
      mindset. Her husband
      was out of the picture
      but was successful
      (had money) from afar.
      However, both were
      failures as parents and
      as protectors to their
      one child and, especially,
      to society. I see a law
      suit on the horizon.

      The media has stated
      how close-knit the
      Newtown community
      was. But that's not true.
      People knew that her
      son had issues, knew
      that she had guns, and
      knew that shootings
      by deranged young
      men aren't all that
      uncommon. Still,
      nothing was done,
      there was no intervention.

      People were afraid
      to cross boundaries
      and to get into her
      personal space. Plus,
      people liked her and
      she had money. But
      I'm thinking that she
      didn't want herself,
      and maybe her son,
      stigmatized by seeking
      help for his Mental
      illness. However,
      someone in the community
      should have stepped
      in just the same. It
      wasn't like his odd
      paranoid schizophrenic
      behaviour was hidden
      from view when he
      was in school.

      People live in their own
      private little worlds and
      we respect their right
      to do that, but maybe
      we've given them too
      much freedom when
      they haven't demonstrated
      responsibility. Forced
      care and prevention
      and the tracking of
      sick people for follow-up
      seems to be one alternative.

      Isn't that what "community"
      should be more about?

      But one has to wonder.
      Where was the "religious"
      community? What was
      their role in all of this?
      Is everything with them
      after-the-fact?

      Prometheus

      "Non" wrote:
      It is beyond sad to numbing and shocking. I think it is our culture of
      violence.
      It is difficult to even find a good movie with a decent story line that
      isn't
      filled with blood and explicit gore. I went to a recent Bond movie and
      honestly
      was bored and left. Where was the subtle humor and sexual innuendo,
      just in your
      face violence and malevolence, no imagination. Go looking for a fun
      video game
      and most of them are war games of some sort.

      As far as religion in these circumstances, they are still caught up in
      trying to
      fit it into God's Will, or what have you. I see it as a failure to give
      and
      teach real empathy and compassion. Admitting to their part as abusive
      and
      neglectful and even lacking "Soul" or "Heart", just going through the
      motions of
      ritual. I know I overgeneralize, but ....

      Without knowing all of the details, there is one blaring detail, and
      that is a
      very unstable household in which there were a lot of bullets and high
      powered
      rifles and guns, and apparently a lot of rage.

      I am reminded of the song from South Pacific..."You have to be taught
      to hate
      and fear....".

      I believe we have lost or never adequately have achieved our sense of
      community
      or caring. We have a long way to go. There are some societies in the
      past and
      present where violence was/is rare and isolation and depression a very
      low
      occurrence. We are/have been a society of conquest, and yes even
      genocide.

      Beginning with treating children with kindness while teaching
      boundaries and
      respect for each other is not an impossible task. We do not live in a
      society
      that places children and their care first. We are often looking at
      children
      committing these crimes. Boys are neglected imo, and abused more often
      than is
      admitted. Perfectionism is not necessarily a good goal. There is too
      much
      competition....not enough cooperation. IMHO

      PEACE

      Non

      "prometheus" wrote:

      Hello All,
      I've been watching the
      TV coverage of this tragedy
      for a few days now. It
      makes one wonder how
      a mentally deranged
      young man can do such
      evil and to such innocent
      children... face-to-face!

      However, I found the
      religious take on all
      of it to be quite strange.
      Some of the comments
      in the prayers of the
      ministers were odd.

      One cleric said that
      it happened in order
      to have people to
      question life and to
      be able to go through
      their own transformation.
      Thus, it's a test!

      One guy mentioned that
      the children would not
      have to experience sin.

      "After passion comes
      compassion."

      I'm not sure why people
      were praying to God and
      talking to or beseeching
      God when he didn't offer
      up any protection to these
      innocent children. But,
      are innocent children in
      other countries protected
      from harm? It's like how
      Klemp protects his eckists.

      The Governor of CT. sounded
      like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
      when talking about after Winter
      there will be Spring and growth.

      There is belief that a grander
      plan is afoot and that it won't
      be revealed until you can no
      longer speak and share and
      this gives those left hope that
      the promises will be fulfilled.

      I'm thinking that Eckists
      are probably sad, too, but
      also think that they see it
      as karma being karma and
      that there is no death.

      "What is seen is temporary
      but what is unseen is eternal."

      Do clerics merely repeat what
      we already know or is it merely
      a pep talk while reminding
      us of what we are supposed
      to believe? Or, do they see
      themselves as the experts
      who have memorized scripture,
      dress up in special garments,
      while we regular people are
      the ignorant sheep meant to
      blindly follow?

      It is interesting to see a
      commonality of sorts, but
      individual choice seems to
      take precedence as it always
      will.

      prometheus
    • iam999freedom
      Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have influenced you) on the big picture of why evil (bad things do happen to good people)happens
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 18, 2012
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        Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its existence.

        I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will, reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to make a difficult issue acceptable.

        Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.

        Freedom




        What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
        influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
        experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
        link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
        instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
        is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
        ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
        higher consciousness.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: iam999freedom
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

        Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
        Newtown, CT. Shootings

         
        Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
        understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
        comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
        evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
        in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:

        Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
        Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
        exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
        which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
        illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
        "God"
        responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
        individual choice.

        Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
        would seem to indicate otherwise.

        Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
        looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
        itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
        realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
        know
        it.

        Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
        can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
        But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
        and
        the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
        myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
        change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
        So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
        is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

        And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
        not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
        identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
        identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
        the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
        belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
        believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: iam999freedom
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

        Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
        Newtown, CT. Shootings

         
        Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
        think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
        world.

        When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
        knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
        shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
        and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
        to
        explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

        However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
        play
        (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
        of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
        indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
        me to thinks:
        1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
        2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

        Any thoughts from others?

        Sincerely,
        Freedom


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
        jepfeiffer@ wrote:
        >
        > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
        religious leaders would focus on that angle.
        >  
        > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
        children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
        trying to deter him from killing those children.
        >  
        > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside
        to
        save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
        demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
        >  
        > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
        day find peace concerning it
        >
        > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
        Newtown, CT. Shootings
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        > Hello All,
        > I've been watching the
        > TV coverage of this tragedy
        > for a few days now. It
        > makes one wonder how
        > a mentally deranged
        > young man can do such
        > evil and to such innocent
        > children... face-to-face!
        >
        > However, I found the
        > religious take on all
        > of it to be quite strange.
        > Some of the comments
        > in the prayers of the
        > ministers were odd.
        >
        > One cleric said that
        > it happened in order
        > to have people to
        > question life and to
        > be able to go through
        > their own transformation.
        > Thus, it's a test!
        >
        > One guy mentioned that
        > the children would not
        > have to experience sin.
        >
        > "After passion comes
        > compassion."
        >
        > I'm not sure why people
        > were praying to God and
        > talking to or beseeching
        > God when he didn't offer
        > up any protection to these
        > innocent children. But,
        > are innocent children in
        > other countries protected
        > from harm? It's like how
        > Klemp protects his eckists.
        >
        > The Governor of CT. sounded
        > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
        > when talking about after Winter
        > there will be Spring and growth.
        >
        > There is belief that a grander
        > plan is afoot and that it won't
        > be revealed until you can no
        > longer speak and share and
        > this gives those left hope that
        > the promises will be fulfilled.
        >
        > I'm thinking that Eckists
        > are probably sad, too, but
        > also think that they see it
        > as karma being karma and
        > that there is no death.
        >
        > "What is seen is temporary
        > but what is unseen is eternal."
        >
        > Do clerics merely repeat what
        > we already know or is it merely
        > a pep talk while reminding
        > us of what we are supposed
        > to believe? Or, do they see
        > themselves as the experts
        > who have memorized scripture,
        > dress up in special garments,
        > while we regular people are
        > the ignorant sheep meant to
        > blindly follow?
        >
        > It is interesting to see a
        > commonality of sorts, but
        > individual choice seems to
        > take precedence as it always
        > will.
        >
        > prometheus
        >
      • etznab@aol.com
        I really don t know for certain, except that with individuals good and evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but with many things
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 19, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
          evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
          with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
          interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
          M. Graham

          -----Original Message-----
          From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
          Newtown, CT. Shootings

           
          Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
          influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
          happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
          crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
          natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
          pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
          existence.

          I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
          reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
          make a difficult issue acceptable.

          Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
          speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
          consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.

          Freedom

          What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
          influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
          experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
          link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
          instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
          is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
          ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
          higher consciousness.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: iam999freedom
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

          Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
          Newtown, CT. Shootings

           
          Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
          understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
          comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
          evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
          in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:

          Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
          Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
          exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
          which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
          illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
          "God"
          responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
          individual choice.

          Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
          would seem to indicate otherwise.

          Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
          looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
          itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
          realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
          know
          it.

          Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
          can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
          But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
          and
          the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
          myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
          change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
          So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
          is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

          And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
          not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
          identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
          identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
          the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
          belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
          believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: iam999freedom
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

          Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
          Newtown, CT. Shootings

           
          Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
          think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
          world.

          When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
          knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
          shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
          and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
          to
          explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

          However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
          play
          (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
          of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
          indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
          me to thinks:
          1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
          2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

          Any thoughts from others?

          Sincerely,
          Freedom


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
          jepfeiffer@ wrote:
          >
          > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
          religious leaders would focus on that angle.
          >  
          > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
          children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
          trying to deter him from killing those children.
          >  
          > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
          aside
          to
          save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
          demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
          conditions. 
          >  
          > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
          day find peace concerning it
          >
          > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
          Newtown, CT. Shootings
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello All,
          > I've been watching the
          > TV coverage of this tragedy
          > for a few days now. It
          > makes one wonder how
          > a mentally deranged
          > young man can do such
          > evil and to such innocent
          > children... face-to-face!
          >
          > However, I found the
          > religious take on all
          > of it to be quite strange.
          > Some of the comments
          > in the prayers of the
          > ministers were odd.
          >
          > One cleric said that
          > it happened in order
          > to have people to
          > question life and to
          > be able to go through
          > their own transformation.
          > Thus, it's a test!
          >
          > One guy mentioned that
          > the children would not
          > have to experience sin.
          >
          > "After passion comes
          > compassion."
          >
          > I'm not sure why people
          > were praying to God and
          > talking to or beseeching
          > God when he didn't offer
          > up any protection to these
          > innocent children. But,
          > are innocent children in
          > other countries protected
          > from harm? It's like how
          > Klemp protects his eckists.
          >
          > The Governor of CT. sounded
          > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
          > when talking about after Winter
          > there will be Spring and growth.
          >
          > There is belief that a grander
          > plan is afoot and that it won't
          > be revealed until you can no
          > longer speak and share and
          > this gives those left hope that
          > the promises will be fulfilled.
          >
          > I'm thinking that Eckists
          > are probably sad, too, but
          > also think that they see it
          > as karma being karma and
          > that there is no death.
          >
          > "What is seen is temporary
          > but what is unseen is eternal."
          >
          > Do clerics merely repeat what
          > we already know or is it merely
          > a pep talk while reminding
          > us of what we are supposed
          > to believe? Or, do they see
          > themselves as the experts
          > who have memorized scripture,
          > dress up in special garments,
          > while we regular people are
          > the ignorant sheep meant to
          > blindly follow?
          >
          > It is interesting to see a
          > commonality of sorts, but
          > individual choice seems to
          > take precedence as it always
          > will.
          >
          > prometheus
          >
        • etznab18
          Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.   For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 19, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.

              "For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of matter. The second question then is: Where did this matter come from? Though scoffed at but a few years ago, it is now known that matter is but 'congealed energy.' This implies a congealing process and a pre-physical source of matter, something like that of the nonphysical electron. Dr I. Langmuir called this source the quantel, a significant term and we shall use it. A more familiar name, however, is etheric energy. But is this the ultimate source of matter? May it not be but one of the many vibratory rates of energy? It is." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 14]

              "... there has not been a genuine metaphysician in the world for six thousand years. If there had been, he would have seen the fallacies of both science and religion and exposed them." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 16]

            "Would you call a humanity civilized that has a hundred wars in as many years? that spends trillions of dollars on murder weapons while its schools and hospitals close for want of funds? that lets half its people starve while the other half sickens from overeating? Would you call a humanity enlightened that poisons the air, the water and the soil? that doesn't know mythology from history?, or even what it exists for? This is the animal estate." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 75]

            "The cunning hands of the priests perverted the entire Bible. It was they who made the redaction after the so-called Exilic period, and by that time they were the sole authority. Their purpose was the creation of a supernatural basis for a religion, hence the perversion of the original truth, than which there is no greater crime. As Dr. Johnson said: 'I know not any crime so great that a man could contrive to commit as poisoning the source of eternal truth.' And according to Kipling, 'Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind.' And the scriptures are the most deadly concoction of them all. They are the prescientific opiates, tranquilizers and placebos." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 82]

              "If man had divine teachers and divine knowledge in the beginning how did he get like Neanderthal, or even us? This is Devolution." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 102]

            ***

            One thing this book talked about was Involution vs. Evolution. I think it possible that Spirit can become involved with Matter, but I can't really say for sure. It sounds rather paradoxical to me.

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
            >
            > I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
            > evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
            > with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
            > interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
            > M. Graham
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
            > Newtown, CT. Shootings
            >
            >  
            > Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
            > influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
            > happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
            > crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
            > natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
            > pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
            > existence.
            >
            > I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
            > reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
            > make a difficult issue acceptable.
            >
            > Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
            > speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
            > consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.
            >
            > Freedom
            >
            > What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
            > influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
            > experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
            > link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
            > instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
            > is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
            > ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
            > higher consciousness.
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: iam999freedom
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            >
            > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
            > Newtown, CT. Shootings
            >
            >  
            > Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
            > understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
            > comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
            > evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
            > in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
            >
            > Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
            > Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
            > exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
            > which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
            > illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
            > "God"
            > responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
            > individual choice.
            >
            > Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
            > would seem to indicate otherwise.
            >
            > Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
            > looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
            > itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
            > realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
            > know
            > it.
            >
            > Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
            > can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
            > But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
            > and
            > the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
            > myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
            > change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
            > So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
            > is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.
            >
            > And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
            > not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
            > identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
            > identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
            > the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
            > belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
            > believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: iam999freedom
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            >
            > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
            > Newtown, CT. Shootings
            >
            >  
            > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
            > think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
            > world.
            >
            > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
            > knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
            > shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
            > and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
            > to
            > explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
            >
            > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
            > play
            > (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
            > of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
            > indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
            > me to thinks:
            > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
            > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
            >
            > Any thoughts from others?
            >
            > Sincerely,
            > Freedom
            >
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
            > jepfeiffer@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
            > religious leaders would focus on that angle.
            > >  
            > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
            > children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
            > trying to deter him from killing those children.
            > >  
            > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
            > aside
            > to
            > save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
            > demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
            > conditions. 
            > >  
            > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
            > day find peace concerning it
            > >
            > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
            > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
            > Newtown, CT. Shootings
            > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >  
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Hello All,
            > > I've been watching the
            > > TV coverage of this tragedy
            > > for a few days now. It
            > > makes one wonder how
            > > a mentally deranged
            > > young man can do such
            > > evil and to such innocent
            > > children... face-to-face!
            > >
            > > However, I found the
            > > religious take on all
            > > of it to be quite strange.
            > > Some of the comments
            > > in the prayers of the
            > > ministers were odd.
            > >
            > > One cleric said that
            > > it happened in order
            > > to have people to
            > > question life and to
            > > be able to go through
            > > their own transformation.
            > > Thus, it's a test!
            > >
            > > One guy mentioned that
            > > the children would not
            > > have to experience sin.
            > >
            > > "After passion comes
            > > compassion."
            > >
            > > I'm not sure why people
            > > were praying to God and
            > > talking to or beseeching
            > > God when he didn't offer
            > > up any protection to these
            > > innocent children. But,
            > > are innocent children in
            > > other countries protected
            > > from harm? It's like how
            > > Klemp protects his eckists.
            > >
            > > The Governor of CT. sounded
            > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
            > > when talking about after Winter
            > > there will be Spring and growth.
            > >
            > > There is belief that a grander
            > > plan is afoot and that it won't
            > > be revealed until you can no
            > > longer speak and share and
            > > this gives those left hope that
            > > the promises will be fulfilled.
            > >
            > > I'm thinking that Eckists
            > > are probably sad, too, but
            > > also think that they see it
            > > as karma being karma and
            > > that there is no death.
            > >
            > > "What is seen is temporary
            > > but what is unseen is eternal."
            > >
            > > Do clerics merely repeat what
            > > we already know or is it merely
            > > a pep talk while reminding
            > > us of what we are supposed
            > > to believe? Or, do they see
            > > themselves as the experts
            > > who have memorized scripture,
            > > dress up in special garments,
            > > while we regular people are
            > > the ignorant sheep meant to
            > > blindly follow?
            > >
            > > It is interesting to see a
            > > commonality of sorts, but
            > > individual choice seems to
            > > take precedence as it always
            > > will.
            > >
            > > prometheus
            > >
            >
          • iam999freedom
            Sounds like a another critique of mans fallenness and incapacity to establish a sane world. Have heard of all this before which is why I am so obsessed with
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 19, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Sounds like a another critique of mans' fallenness and incapacity to establish a sane world. Have heard of all this before which is why I am so obsessed with coming to a sense of meaningfullness about it all. Will probably get the book hoping it probes a wide spectrum of other issues which helps to "explain the madness".

              Btw, thanks to Prometheus for allowing us to explore these issues on this website. I really feel that part of the cult recovery process is to establish a sense of stability and meaning beyond the cult experience.

              Freedom


              "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
              >
              > Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.
              >
              >   "For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of matter. The second question then is: Where did this matter come from? Though scoffed at but a few years ago, it is now known that matter is but 'congealed energy.' This implies a congealing process and a pre-physical source of matter, something like that of the nonphysical electron. Dr I. Langmuir called this source the quantel, a significant term and we shall use it. A more familiar name, however, is etheric energy. But is this the ultimate source of matter? May it not be but one of the many vibratory rates of energy? It is." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 14]
              >
              >   "... there has not been a genuine metaphysician in the world for six thousand years. If there had been, he would have seen the fallacies of both science and religion and exposed them." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 16]
              >
              > "Would you call a humanity civilized that has a hundred wars in as many years? that spends trillions of dollars on murder weapons while its schools and hospitals close for want of funds? that lets half its people starve while the other half sickens from overeating? Would you call a humanity enlightened that poisons the air, the water and the soil? that doesn't know mythology from history?, or even what it exists for? This is the animal estate." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 75]
              >
              > "The cunning hands of the priests perverted the entire Bible. It was they who made the redaction after the so-called Exilic period, and by that time they were the sole authority. Their purpose was the creation of a supernatural basis for a religion, hence the perversion of the original truth, than which there is no greater crime. As Dr. Johnson said: 'I know not any crime so great that a man could contrive to commit as poisoning the source of eternal truth.' And according to Kipling, 'Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind.' And the scriptures are the most deadly concoction of them all. They are the prescientific opiates, tranquilizers and placebos." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 82]
              >
              >   "If man had divine teachers and divine knowledge in the beginning how did he get like Neanderthal, or even us? This is Devolution." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 102]
              >
              > ***
              >
              > One thing this book talked about was Involution vs. Evolution. I think it possible that Spirit can become involved with Matter, but I can't really say for sure. It sounds rather paradoxical to me.
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
              > >
              > > I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
              > > evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
              > > with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
              > > interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
              > > M. Graham
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
              > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
              > >
              > >  
              > > Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
              > > influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
              > > happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
              > > crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
              > > natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
              > > pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
              > > existence.
              > >
              > > I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
              > > reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
              > > make a difficult issue acceptable.
              > >
              > > Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
              > > speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
              > > consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.
              > >
              > > Freedom
              > >
              > > What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
              > > influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
              > > experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
              > > link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
              > > instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
              > > is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
              > > ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
              > > higher consciousness.
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: iam999freedom
              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              > >
              > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
              > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
              > >
              > >  
              > > Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
              > > understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
              > > comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
              > > evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
              > > in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
              > >
              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
              > > Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
              > > exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
              > > which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
              > > illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
              > > "God"
              > > responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
              > > individual choice.
              > >
              > > Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
              > > would seem to indicate otherwise.
              > >
              > > Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
              > > looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
              > > itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
              > > realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
              > > know
              > > it.
              > >
              > > Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
              > > can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
              > > But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
              > > and
              > > the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
              > > myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
              > > change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
              > > So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
              > > is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.
              > >
              > > And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
              > > not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
              > > identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
              > > identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
              > > the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
              > > belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
              > > believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: iam999freedom
              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              > >
              > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
              > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
              > >
              > >  
              > > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
              > > think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
              > > world.
              > >
              > > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
              > > knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
              > > shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
              > > and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
              > > to
              > > explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
              > >
              > > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
              > > play
              > > (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
              > > of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
              > > indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
              > > me to thinks:
              > > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
              > > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
              > >
              > > Any thoughts from others?
              > >
              > > Sincerely,
              > > Freedom
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
              > > jepfeiffer@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
              > > religious leaders would focus on that angle.
              > > >  
              > > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
              > > children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
              > > trying to deter him from killing those children.
              > > >  
              > > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
              > > aside
              > > to
              > > save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
              > > demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
              > > conditions. 
              > > >  
              > > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
              > > day find peace concerning it
              > > >
              > > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
              > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
              > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
              > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >  
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hello All,
              > > > I've been watching the
              > > > TV coverage of this tragedy
              > > > for a few days now. It
              > > > makes one wonder how
              > > > a mentally deranged
              > > > young man can do such
              > > > evil and to such innocent
              > > > children... face-to-face!
              > > >
              > > > However, I found the
              > > > religious take on all
              > > > of it to be quite strange.
              > > > Some of the comments
              > > > in the prayers of the
              > > > ministers were odd.
              > > >
              > > > One cleric said that
              > > > it happened in order
              > > > to have people to
              > > > question life and to
              > > > be able to go through
              > > > their own transformation.
              > > > Thus, it's a test!
              > > >
              > > > One guy mentioned that
              > > > the children would not
              > > > have to experience sin.
              > > >
              > > > "After passion comes
              > > > compassion."
              > > >
              > > > I'm not sure why people
              > > > were praying to God and
              > > > talking to or beseeching
              > > > God when he didn't offer
              > > > up any protection to these
              > > > innocent children. But,
              > > > are innocent children in
              > > > other countries protected
              > > > from harm? It's like how
              > > > Klemp protects his eckists.
              > > >
              > > > The Governor of CT. sounded
              > > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
              > > > when talking about after Winter
              > > > there will be Spring and growth.
              > > >
              > > > There is belief that a grander
              > > > plan is afoot and that it won't
              > > > be revealed until you can no
              > > > longer speak and share and
              > > > this gives those left hope that
              > > > the promises will be fulfilled.
              > > >
              > > > I'm thinking that Eckists
              > > > are probably sad, too, but
              > > > also think that they see it
              > > > as karma being karma and
              > > > that there is no death.
              > > >
              > > > "What is seen is temporary
              > > > but what is unseen is eternal."
              > > >
              > > > Do clerics merely repeat what
              > > > we already know or is it merely
              > > > a pep talk while reminding
              > > > us of what we are supposed
              > > > to believe? Or, do they see
              > > > themselves as the experts
              > > > who have memorized scripture,
              > > > dress up in special garments,
              > > > while we regular people are
              > > > the ignorant sheep meant to
              > > > blindly follow?
              > > >
              > > > It is interesting to see a
              > > > commonality of sorts, but
              > > > individual choice seems to
              > > > take precedence as it always
              > > > will.
              > > >
              > > > prometheus
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Non
              I think humans are still in the early stages of evolving. We are arrogant about our status in the world, imo, and are still learning how to be better and more
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 20, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                I think humans are still in the early stages of evolving. We are arrogant about our status in the world, imo, and are still learning how to be better and more compassionate. Within us all is a destructive force and a life/creative force. And we are still very much a part of our animal ancestry.

                It is interesting that some of these horrendous acts are being committed by very intelligent people who lack a sense of feeling and caring, and were very shy and sensitive. Gifted children often lack emotional integrity and are very often confused and even in need of Psychotherapy, especially if they come from a family or school that does not know how to handle teaching emotional intelligence. Something to consider.

                Non ;)

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                >
                > Sounds like a another critique of mans' fallenness and incapacity to establish a sane world. Have heard of all this before which is why I am so obsessed with coming to a sense of meaningfullness about it all. Will probably get the book hoping it probes a wide spectrum of other issues which helps to "explain the madness".
                >
                > Btw, thanks to Prometheus for allowing us to explore these issues on this website. I really feel that part of the cult recovery process is to establish a sense of stability and meaning beyond the cult experience.
                >
                > Freedom
                >
                >
                > "etznab18" <etznab@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.
                > >
                > >   "For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of matter. The second question then is: Where did this matter come from? Though scoffed at but a few years ago, it is now known that matter is but 'congealed energy.' This implies a congealing process and a pre-physical source of matter, something like that of the nonphysical electron. Dr I. Langmuir called this source the quantel, a significant term and we shall use it. A more familiar name, however, is etheric energy. But is this the ultimate source of matter? May it not be but one of the many vibratory rates of energy? It is." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 14]
                > >
                > >   "... there has not been a genuine metaphysician in the world for six thousand years. If there had been, he would have seen the fallacies of both science and religion and exposed them." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 16]
                > >
                > > "Would you call a humanity civilized that has a hundred wars in as many years? that spends trillions of dollars on murder weapons while its schools and hospitals close for want of funds? that lets half its people starve while the other half sickens from overeating? Would you call a humanity enlightened that poisons the air, the water and the soil? that doesn't know mythology from history?, or even what it exists for? This is the animal estate." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 75]
                > >
                > > "The cunning hands of the priests perverted the entire Bible. It was they who made the redaction after the so-called Exilic period, and by that time they were the sole authority. Their purpose was the creation of a supernatural basis for a religion, hence the perversion of the original truth, than which there is no greater crime. As Dr. Johnson said: 'I know not any crime so great that a man could contrive to commit as poisoning the source of eternal truth.' And according to Kipling, 'Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind.' And the scriptures are the most deadly concoction of them all. They are the prescientific opiates, tranquilizers and placebos." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 82]
                > >
                > >   "If man had divine teachers and divine knowledge in the beginning how did he get like Neanderthal, or even us? This is Devolution." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 102]
                > >
                > > ***
                > >
                > > One thing this book talked about was Involution vs. Evolution. I think it possible that Spirit can become involved with Matter, but I can't really say for sure. It sounds rather paradoxical to me.
                > >
                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
                > > > evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
                > > > with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
                > > > interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
                > > > M. Graham
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
                > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                > > >
                > > >  
                > > > Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
                > > > influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
                > > > happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
                > > > crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
                > > > natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
                > > > pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
                > > > existence.
                > > >
                > > > I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
                > > > reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
                > > > make a difficult issue acceptable.
                > > >
                > > > Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
                > > > speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
                > > > consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.
                > > >
                > > > Freedom
                > > >
                > > > What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
                > > > influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
                > > > experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
                > > > link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
                > > > instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
                > > > is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
                > > > ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
                > > > higher consciousness.
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: iam999freedom
                > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > > >
                > > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
                > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                > > >
                > > >  
                > > > Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
                > > > understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
                > > > comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
                > > > evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
                > > > in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
                > > >
                > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                > > > Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                > > > exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                > > > which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                > > > illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
                > > > "God"
                > > > responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                > > > individual choice.
                > > >
                > > > Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                > > > would seem to indicate otherwise.
                > > >
                > > > Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                > > > looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                > > > itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                > > > realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
                > > > know
                > > > it.
                > > >
                > > > Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                > > > can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                > > > But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
                > > > and
                > > > the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                > > > myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                > > > change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                > > > So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                > > > is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.
                > > >
                > > > And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                > > > not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                > > > identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                > > > identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                > > > the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                > > > belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                > > > believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: iam999freedom
                > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > > >
                > > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                > > >
                > > >  
                > > > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                > > > think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
                > > > world.
                > > >
                > > > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                > > > knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                > > > shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                > > > and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
                > > > to
                > > > explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
                > > >
                > > > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
                > > > play
                > > > (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                > > > of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                > > > indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                > > > me to thinks:
                > > > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                > > > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
                > > >
                > > > Any thoughts from others?
                > > >
                > > > Sincerely,
                > > > Freedom
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                > > > jepfeiffer@ wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                > > > religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                > > > >  
                > > > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                > > > children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                > > > trying to deter him from killing those children.
                > > > >  
                > > > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
                > > > aside
                > > > to
                > > > save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                > > > demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
                > > > conditions. 
                > > > >  
                > > > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                > > > day find peace concerning it
                > > > >
                > > > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                > > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >  
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Hello All,
                > > > > I've been watching the
                > > > > TV coverage of this tragedy
                > > > > for a few days now. It
                > > > > makes one wonder how
                > > > > a mentally deranged
                > > > > young man can do such
                > > > > evil and to such innocent
                > > > > children... face-to-face!
                > > > >
                > > > > However, I found the
                > > > > religious take on all
                > > > > of it to be quite strange.
                > > > > Some of the comments
                > > > > in the prayers of the
                > > > > ministers were odd.
                > > > >
                > > > > One cleric said that
                > > > > it happened in order
                > > > > to have people to
                > > > > question life and to
                > > > > be able to go through
                > > > > their own transformation.
                > > > > Thus, it's a test!
                > > > >
                > > > > One guy mentioned that
                > > > > the children would not
                > > > > have to experience sin.
                > > > >
                > > > > "After passion comes
                > > > > compassion."
                > > > >
                > > > > I'm not sure why people
                > > > > were praying to God and
                > > > > talking to or beseeching
                > > > > God when he didn't offer
                > > > > up any protection to these
                > > > > innocent children. But,
                > > > > are innocent children in
                > > > > other countries protected
                > > > > from harm? It's like how
                > > > > Klemp protects his eckists.
                > > > >
                > > > > The Governor of CT. sounded
                > > > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                > > > > when talking about after Winter
                > > > > there will be Spring and growth.
                > > > >
                > > > > There is belief that a grander
                > > > > plan is afoot and that it won't
                > > > > be revealed until you can no
                > > > > longer speak and share and
                > > > > this gives those left hope that
                > > > > the promises will be fulfilled.
                > > > >
                > > > > I'm thinking that Eckists
                > > > > are probably sad, too, but
                > > > > also think that they see it
                > > > > as karma being karma and
                > > > > that there is no death.
                > > > >
                > > > > "What is seen is temporary
                > > > > but what is unseen is eternal."
                > > > >
                > > > > Do clerics merely repeat what
                > > > > we already know or is it merely
                > > > > a pep talk while reminding
                > > > > us of what we are supposed
                > > > > to believe? Or, do they see
                > > > > themselves as the experts
                > > > > who have memorized scripture,
                > > > > dress up in special garments,
                > > > > while we regular people are
                > > > > the ignorant sheep meant to
                > > > > blindly follow?
                > > > >
                > > > > It is interesting to see a
                > > > > commonality of sorts, but
                > > > > individual choice seems to
                > > > > take precedence as it always
                > > > > will.
                > > > >
                > > > > prometheus
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Janice Pfeiffer
                Wow etznab, that s really deep.  Lots to think about.  ... From: etznab@aol.com Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It s So Sad
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 22, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Wow etznab, that's really deep.  Lots to think about. 

                  --- On Tue, 12/18/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                  From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, December 18, 2012, 1:51 AM

                   
                  Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                  Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                  exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                  which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                  illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God"
                  responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                  individual choice.

                  Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                  would seem to indicate otherwise.

                  Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                  looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                  itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                  realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we know
                  it.

                  Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                  can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                  But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution and
                  the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                  myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                  change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                  So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                  is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

                  And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                  not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                  identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                  identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                  the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                  belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                  believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                  Newtown, CT. Shootings

                   
                  Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                  think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this world.

                  When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                  knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                  shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                  and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used to
                  explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

                  However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the play
                  (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                  of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                  indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                  me to thinks:
                  1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                  2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

                  Any thoughts from others?

                  Sincerely,
                  Freedom

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                  &lt;jepfeiffer@...&gt; wrote:
                  &gt;
                  &gt; Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                  religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                  &gt;  
                  &gt; There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                  children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                  trying to deter him from killing those children.
                  &gt;  
                  &gt; To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside to
                  save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                  demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
                  &gt;  
                  &gt; Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                  day find peace concerning it
                  &gt;
                  &gt; --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@...&gt;
                  wrote:
                  &gt;
                  &gt;
                  &gt; From: prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@...&gt;
                  &gt; Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                  Newtown, CT. Shootings
                  &gt; To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  &gt; Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                  &gt;
                  &gt;
                  &gt;
                  &gt;  
                  &gt;
                  &gt;
                  &gt;
                  &gt; Hello All,
                  &gt; I've been watching the
                  &gt; TV coverage of this tragedy
                  &gt; for a few days now. It
                  &gt; makes one wonder how
                  &gt; a mentally deranged
                  &gt; young man can do such
                  &gt; evil and to such innocent
                  &gt; children... face-to-face!
                  &gt;
                  &gt; However, I found the
                  &gt; religious take on all
                  &gt; of it to be quite strange.
                  &gt; Some of the comments
                  &gt; in the prayers of the
                  &gt; ministers were odd.
                  &gt;
                  &gt; One cleric said that
                  &gt; it happened in order
                  &gt; to have people to
                  &gt; question life and to
                  &gt; be able to go through
                  &gt; their own transformation.
                  &gt; Thus, it's a test!
                  &gt;
                  &gt; One guy mentioned that
                  &gt; the children would not
                  &gt; have to experience sin.
                  &gt;
                  &gt; "After passion comes
                  &gt; compassion."
                  &gt;
                  &gt; I'm not sure why people
                  &gt; were praying to God and
                  &gt; talking to or beseeching
                  &gt; God when he didn't offer
                  &gt; up any protection to these
                  &gt; innocent children. But,
                  &gt; are innocent children in
                  &gt; other countries protected
                  &gt; from harm? It's like how
                  &gt; Klemp protects his eckists.
                  &gt;
                  &gt; The Governor of CT. sounded
                  &gt; like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                  &gt; when talking about after Winter
                  &gt; there will be Spring and growth.
                  &gt;
                  &gt; There is belief that a grander
                  &gt; plan is afoot and that it won't
                  &gt; be revealed until you can no
                  &gt; longer speak and share and
                  &gt; this gives those left hope that
                  &gt; the promises will be fulfilled.
                  &gt;
                  &gt; I'm thinking that Eckists
                  &gt; are probably sad, too, but
                  &gt; also think that they see it
                  &gt; as karma being karma and
                  &gt; that there is no death.
                  &gt;
                  &gt; "What is seen is temporary
                  &gt; but what is unseen is eternal."
                  &gt;
                  &gt; Do clerics merely repeat what
                  &gt; we already know or is it merely
                  &gt; a pep talk while reminding
                  &gt; us of what we are supposed
                  &gt; to believe? Or, do they see
                  &gt; themselves as the experts
                  &gt; who have memorized scripture,
                  &gt; dress up in special garments,
                  &gt; while we regular people are
                  &gt; the ignorant sheep meant to
                  &gt; blindly follow?
                  &gt;
                  &gt; It is interesting to see a
                  &gt; commonality of sorts, but
                  &gt; individual choice seems to
                  &gt; take precedence as it always
                  &gt; will.
                  &gt;
                  &gt; prometheus
                  &gt;

                • harrisonferrel
                  My thoughts on this? Much time is spent with suppositions. Does god exist? Most likely not. There is no evidence except what people rationalize is evidence. I
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 4, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    My thoughts on this?

                    Much time is spent with suppositions. Does god exist? Most likely not. There is no evidence except what people rationalize is evidence. I agree about the lack of logic and posit: If god is all knowing all seeing and all loving, then there is a huge problem. No evil or suffering would take place. Ever. I tend to agree with Christopher Hitchens that God is Not Great. God would have to be a psychopath to allow what goes on here. The only explanations as to why are merely rationalizations in fear of letting go of this primitive idea that has never been substantiated.

                    I have no belief in god, karma, spirit, etc. And it feels good. I remain open minded but thus far cannot commit to ideas that are without basis. How does this make me feel? Free. God was invented by man. If you understand history you will see that the idea of god was an evolution and not an epiphany. It's a pretty weak and immature worldview that leads one to think that there is a force that guides everything and has some sort of intelligence. To paraphrase Sam Harris, Just because we don't know what the answer is does not mean that there is no answer. I would rather admit that I am ignorant or uninformed than to say there is a god or supernatural world.

                    And, yes, I've had plenty of "experiences," but now I understand what they were and I cannot say they were anything otherworldly.


                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this world.
                    >
                    > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used to explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
                    >
                    > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the play (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads me to thinks:
                    > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                    > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
                    >
                    > Any thoughts from others?
                    >
                    > Sincerely,
                    > Freedom
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                    > >  
                    > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed trying to deter him from killing those children.
                    > >  
                    > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside to save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
                    > >  
                    > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one day find peace concerning it
                    > >
                    > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                    > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings
                    > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hello All,
                    > > I've been watching the
                    > > TV coverage of this tragedy
                    > > for a few days now. It
                    > > makes one wonder how
                    > > a mentally deranged
                    > > young man can do such
                    > > evil and to such innocent
                    > > children... face-to-face!
                    > >
                    > > However, I found the
                    > > religious take on all
                    > > of it to be quite strange.
                    > > Some of the comments
                    > > in the prayers of the
                    > > ministers were odd.
                    > >
                    > > One cleric said that
                    > > it happened in order
                    > > to have people to
                    > > question life and to
                    > > be able to go through
                    > > their own transformation.
                    > > Thus, it's a test!
                    > >
                    > > One guy mentioned that
                    > > the children would not
                    > > have to experience sin.
                    > >
                    > > "After passion comes
                    > > compassion."
                    > >
                    > > I'm not sure why people
                    > > were praying to God and
                    > > talking to or beseeching
                    > > God when he didn't offer
                    > > up any protection to these
                    > > innocent children. But,
                    > > are innocent children in
                    > > other countries protected
                    > > from harm? It's like how
                    > > Klemp protects his eckists.
                    > >
                    > > The Governor of CT. sounded
                    > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                    > > when talking about after Winter
                    > > there will be Spring and growth.
                    > >
                    > > There is belief that a grander
                    > > plan is afoot and that it won't
                    > > be revealed until you can no
                    > > longer speak and share and
                    > > this gives those left hope that
                    > > the promises will be fulfilled.
                    > >
                    > > I'm thinking that Eckists
                    > > are probably sad, too, but
                    > > also think that they see it
                    > > as karma being karma and
                    > > that there is no death.
                    > >
                    > > "What is seen is temporary
                    > > but what is unseen is eternal."
                    > >
                    > > Do clerics merely repeat what
                    > > we already know or is it merely
                    > > a pep talk while reminding
                    > > us of what we are supposed
                    > > to believe? Or, do they see
                    > > themselves as the experts
                    > > who have memorized scripture,
                    > > dress up in special garments,
                    > > while we regular people are
                    > > the ignorant sheep meant to
                    > > blindly follow?
                    > >
                    > > It is interesting to see a
                    > > commonality of sorts, but
                    > > individual choice seems to
                    > > take precedence as it always
                    > > will.
                    > >
                    > > prometheus
                    > >
                    >
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