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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings

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  • etznab@aol.com
    What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own experiences, and a website I
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 18, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
      influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
      experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
      link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
      instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
      is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
      ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
      higher consciousness.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
      Newtown, CT. Shootings

       
      Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
      understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
      comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
      evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
      in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:

      Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
      Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
      exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
      which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
      illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
      "God"
      responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
      individual choice.

      Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
      would seem to indicate otherwise.

      Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
      looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
      itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
      realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
      know
      it.

      Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
      can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
      But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
      and
      the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
      myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
      change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
      So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
      is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

      And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
      not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
      identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
      identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
      the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
      belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
      believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: iam999freedom
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

      Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
      Newtown, CT. Shootings

       
      Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
      think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
      world.

      When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
      knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
      shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
      and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
      to
      explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

      However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
      play
      (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
      of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
      indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
      me to thinks:
      1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
      2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

      Any thoughts from others?

      Sincerely,
      Freedom


      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
      jepfeiffer@ wrote:
      >
      > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
      religious leaders would focus on that angle.
      >  
      > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
      children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
      trying to deter him from killing those children.
      >  
      > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside
      to
      save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
      demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
      >  
      > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
      day find peace concerning it
      >
      > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
      Newtown, CT. Shootings
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello All,
      > I've been watching the
      > TV coverage of this tragedy
      > for a few days now. It
      > makes one wonder how
      > a mentally deranged
      > young man can do such
      > evil and to such innocent
      > children... face-to-face!
      >
      > However, I found the
      > religious take on all
      > of it to be quite strange.
      > Some of the comments
      > in the prayers of the
      > ministers were odd.
      >
      > One cleric said that
      > it happened in order
      > to have people to
      > question life and to
      > be able to go through
      > their own transformation.
      > Thus, it's a test!
      >
      > One guy mentioned that
      > the children would not
      > have to experience sin.
      >
      > "After passion comes
      > compassion."
      >
      > I'm not sure why people
      > were praying to God and
      > talking to or beseeching
      > God when he didn't offer
      > up any protection to these
      > innocent children. But,
      > are innocent children in
      > other countries protected
      > from harm? It's like how
      > Klemp protects his eckists.
      >
      > The Governor of CT. sounded
      > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
      > when talking about after Winter
      > there will be Spring and growth.
      >
      > There is belief that a grander
      > plan is afoot and that it won't
      > be revealed until you can no
      > longer speak and share and
      > this gives those left hope that
      > the promises will be fulfilled.
      >
      > I'm thinking that Eckists
      > are probably sad, too, but
      > also think that they see it
      > as karma being karma and
      > that there is no death.
      >
      > "What is seen is temporary
      > but what is unseen is eternal."
      >
      > Do clerics merely repeat what
      > we already know or is it merely
      > a pep talk while reminding
      > us of what we are supposed
      > to believe? Or, do they see
      > themselves as the experts
      > who have memorized scripture,
      > dress up in special garments,
      > while we regular people are
      > the ignorant sheep meant to
      > blindly follow?
      >
      > It is interesting to see a
      > commonality of sorts, but
      > individual choice seems to
      > take precedence as it always
      > will.
      >
      > prometheus
      >
    • etznab@aol.com
      The mother reportedly took her son to the firing range and he was taught how to shoot the guns. So he knew how to use them. Something about this whole story
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 18, 2012
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        The mother reportedly took her son to the firing range and he was
        taught how to shoot the guns. So he knew how to use them.

        Something about this whole story just doesn't sound right to me. I
        think there are probably other missing pieces.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:30 am
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
        Newtown, CT. Shootings

         
        Hello Non and All,
        When one looks at the
        mother of the shooter
        she appears different
        to different people.

        She was intelligent,
        wealthier than most,
        and she was generous.
        She could have passed
        as a saint.

        Then, there was the
        private side where
        she seemed to share
        a similar paranoia as
        her one son displayed.
        She didn't want to talk
        about getting help for
        him, but just hoped
        and prayed that he
        would magically
        grow out of it.

        She owned several
        guns and was in the
        doomsday prepper
        mindset. Her husband
        was out of the picture
        but was successful
        (had money) from afar.
        However, both were
        failures as parents and
        as protectors to their
        one child and, especially,
        to society. I see a law
        suit on the horizon.

        The media has stated
        how close-knit the
        Newtown community
        was. But that's not true.
        People knew that her
        son had issues, knew
        that she had guns, and
        knew that shootings
        by deranged young
        men aren't all that
        uncommon. Still,
        nothing was done,
        there was no intervention.

        People were afraid
        to cross boundaries
        and to get into her
        personal space. Plus,
        people liked her and
        she had money. But
        I'm thinking that she
        didn't want herself,
        and maybe her son,
        stigmatized by seeking
        help for his Mental
        illness. However,
        someone in the community
        should have stepped
        in just the same. It
        wasn't like his odd
        paranoid schizophrenic
        behaviour was hidden
        from view when he
        was in school.

        People live in their own
        private little worlds and
        we respect their right
        to do that, but maybe
        we've given them too
        much freedom when
        they haven't demonstrated
        responsibility. Forced
        care and prevention
        and the tracking of
        sick people for follow-up
        seems to be one alternative.

        Isn't that what "community"
        should be more about?

        But one has to wonder.
        Where was the "religious"
        community? What was
        their role in all of this?
        Is everything with them
        after-the-fact?

        Prometheus

        "Non" wrote:
        It is beyond sad to numbing and shocking. I think it is our culture of
        violence.
        It is difficult to even find a good movie with a decent story line that
        isn't
        filled with blood and explicit gore. I went to a recent Bond movie and
        honestly
        was bored and left. Where was the subtle humor and sexual innuendo,
        just in your
        face violence and malevolence, no imagination. Go looking for a fun
        video game
        and most of them are war games of some sort.

        As far as religion in these circumstances, they are still caught up in
        trying to
        fit it into God's Will, or what have you. I see it as a failure to give
        and
        teach real empathy and compassion. Admitting to their part as abusive
        and
        neglectful and even lacking "Soul" or "Heart", just going through the
        motions of
        ritual. I know I overgeneralize, but ....

        Without knowing all of the details, there is one blaring detail, and
        that is a
        very unstable household in which there were a lot of bullets and high
        powered
        rifles and guns, and apparently a lot of rage.

        I am reminded of the song from South Pacific..."You have to be taught
        to hate
        and fear....".

        I believe we have lost or never adequately have achieved our sense of
        community
        or caring. We have a long way to go. There are some societies in the
        past and
        present where violence was/is rare and isolation and depression a very
        low
        occurrence. We are/have been a society of conquest, and yes even
        genocide.

        Beginning with treating children with kindness while teaching
        boundaries and
        respect for each other is not an impossible task. We do not live in a
        society
        that places children and their care first. We are often looking at
        children
        committing these crimes. Boys are neglected imo, and abused more often
        than is
        admitted. Perfectionism is not necessarily a good goal. There is too
        much
        competition....not enough cooperation. IMHO

        PEACE

        Non

        "prometheus" wrote:

        Hello All,
        I've been watching the
        TV coverage of this tragedy
        for a few days now. It
        makes one wonder how
        a mentally deranged
        young man can do such
        evil and to such innocent
        children... face-to-face!

        However, I found the
        religious take on all
        of it to be quite strange.
        Some of the comments
        in the prayers of the
        ministers were odd.

        One cleric said that
        it happened in order
        to have people to
        question life and to
        be able to go through
        their own transformation.
        Thus, it's a test!

        One guy mentioned that
        the children would not
        have to experience sin.

        "After passion comes
        compassion."

        I'm not sure why people
        were praying to God and
        talking to or beseeching
        God when he didn't offer
        up any protection to these
        innocent children. But,
        are innocent children in
        other countries protected
        from harm? It's like how
        Klemp protects his eckists.

        The Governor of CT. sounded
        like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
        when talking about after Winter
        there will be Spring and growth.

        There is belief that a grander
        plan is afoot and that it won't
        be revealed until you can no
        longer speak and share and
        this gives those left hope that
        the promises will be fulfilled.

        I'm thinking that Eckists
        are probably sad, too, but
        also think that they see it
        as karma being karma and
        that there is no death.

        "What is seen is temporary
        but what is unseen is eternal."

        Do clerics merely repeat what
        we already know or is it merely
        a pep talk while reminding
        us of what we are supposed
        to believe? Or, do they see
        themselves as the experts
        who have memorized scripture,
        dress up in special garments,
        while we regular people are
        the ignorant sheep meant to
        blindly follow?

        It is interesting to see a
        commonality of sorts, but
        individual choice seems to
        take precedence as it always
        will.

        prometheus
      • iam999freedom
        Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have influenced you) on the big picture of why evil (bad things do happen to good people)happens
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 18, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its existence.

          I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will, reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to make a difficult issue acceptable.

          Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.

          Freedom




          What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
          influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
          experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
          link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
          instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
          is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
          ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
          higher consciousness.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: iam999freedom
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

          Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
          Newtown, CT. Shootings

           
          Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
          understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
          comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
          evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
          in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:

          Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
          Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
          exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
          which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
          illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
          "God"
          responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
          individual choice.

          Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
          would seem to indicate otherwise.

          Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
          looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
          itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
          realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
          know
          it.

          Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
          can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
          But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
          and
          the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
          myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
          change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
          So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
          is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

          And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
          not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
          identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
          identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
          the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
          belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
          believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: iam999freedom
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

          Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
          Newtown, CT. Shootings

           
          Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
          think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
          world.

          When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
          knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
          shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
          and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
          to
          explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

          However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
          play
          (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
          of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
          indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
          me to thinks:
          1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
          2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

          Any thoughts from others?

          Sincerely,
          Freedom


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
          jepfeiffer@ wrote:
          >
          > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
          religious leaders would focus on that angle.
          >  
          > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
          children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
          trying to deter him from killing those children.
          >  
          > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside
          to
          save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
          demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
          >  
          > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
          day find peace concerning it
          >
          > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
          Newtown, CT. Shootings
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello All,
          > I've been watching the
          > TV coverage of this tragedy
          > for a few days now. It
          > makes one wonder how
          > a mentally deranged
          > young man can do such
          > evil and to such innocent
          > children... face-to-face!
          >
          > However, I found the
          > religious take on all
          > of it to be quite strange.
          > Some of the comments
          > in the prayers of the
          > ministers were odd.
          >
          > One cleric said that
          > it happened in order
          > to have people to
          > question life and to
          > be able to go through
          > their own transformation.
          > Thus, it's a test!
          >
          > One guy mentioned that
          > the children would not
          > have to experience sin.
          >
          > "After passion comes
          > compassion."
          >
          > I'm not sure why people
          > were praying to God and
          > talking to or beseeching
          > God when he didn't offer
          > up any protection to these
          > innocent children. But,
          > are innocent children in
          > other countries protected
          > from harm? It's like how
          > Klemp protects his eckists.
          >
          > The Governor of CT. sounded
          > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
          > when talking about after Winter
          > there will be Spring and growth.
          >
          > There is belief that a grander
          > plan is afoot and that it won't
          > be revealed until you can no
          > longer speak and share and
          > this gives those left hope that
          > the promises will be fulfilled.
          >
          > I'm thinking that Eckists
          > are probably sad, too, but
          > also think that they see it
          > as karma being karma and
          > that there is no death.
          >
          > "What is seen is temporary
          > but what is unseen is eternal."
          >
          > Do clerics merely repeat what
          > we already know or is it merely
          > a pep talk while reminding
          > us of what we are supposed
          > to believe? Or, do they see
          > themselves as the experts
          > who have memorized scripture,
          > dress up in special garments,
          > while we regular people are
          > the ignorant sheep meant to
          > blindly follow?
          >
          > It is interesting to see a
          > commonality of sorts, but
          > individual choice seems to
          > take precedence as it always
          > will.
          >
          > prometheus
          >
        • etznab@aol.com
          I really don t know for certain, except that with individuals good and evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but with many things
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 19, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
            evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
            with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
            interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
            M. Graham

            -----Original Message-----
            From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
            Newtown, CT. Shootings

             
            Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
            influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
            happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
            crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
            natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
            pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
            existence.

            I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
            reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
            make a difficult issue acceptable.

            Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
            speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
            consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.

            Freedom

            What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
            influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
            experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
            link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
            instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
            is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
            ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
            higher consciousness.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: iam999freedom
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

            Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
            Newtown, CT. Shootings

             
            Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
            understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
            comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
            evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
            in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:

            Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
            Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
            exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
            which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
            illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
            "God"
            responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
            individual choice.

            Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
            would seem to indicate otherwise.

            Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
            looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
            itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
            realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
            know
            it.

            Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
            can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
            But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
            and
            the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
            myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
            change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
            So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
            is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

            And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
            not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
            identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
            identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
            the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
            belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
            believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: iam999freedom
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

            Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
            Newtown, CT. Shootings

             
            Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
            think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
            world.

            When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
            knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
            shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
            and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
            to
            explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

            However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
            play
            (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
            of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
            indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
            me to thinks:
            1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
            2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

            Any thoughts from others?

            Sincerely,
            Freedom


            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
            jepfeiffer@ wrote:
            >
            > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
            religious leaders would focus on that angle.
            >  
            > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
            children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
            trying to deter him from killing those children.
            >  
            > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
            aside
            to
            save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
            demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
            conditions. 
            >  
            > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
            day find peace concerning it
            >
            > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
            Newtown, CT. Shootings
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello All,
            > I've been watching the
            > TV coverage of this tragedy
            > for a few days now. It
            > makes one wonder how
            > a mentally deranged
            > young man can do such
            > evil and to such innocent
            > children... face-to-face!
            >
            > However, I found the
            > religious take on all
            > of it to be quite strange.
            > Some of the comments
            > in the prayers of the
            > ministers were odd.
            >
            > One cleric said that
            > it happened in order
            > to have people to
            > question life and to
            > be able to go through
            > their own transformation.
            > Thus, it's a test!
            >
            > One guy mentioned that
            > the children would not
            > have to experience sin.
            >
            > "After passion comes
            > compassion."
            >
            > I'm not sure why people
            > were praying to God and
            > talking to or beseeching
            > God when he didn't offer
            > up any protection to these
            > innocent children. But,
            > are innocent children in
            > other countries protected
            > from harm? It's like how
            > Klemp protects his eckists.
            >
            > The Governor of CT. sounded
            > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
            > when talking about after Winter
            > there will be Spring and growth.
            >
            > There is belief that a grander
            > plan is afoot and that it won't
            > be revealed until you can no
            > longer speak and share and
            > this gives those left hope that
            > the promises will be fulfilled.
            >
            > I'm thinking that Eckists
            > are probably sad, too, but
            > also think that they see it
            > as karma being karma and
            > that there is no death.
            >
            > "What is seen is temporary
            > but what is unseen is eternal."
            >
            > Do clerics merely repeat what
            > we already know or is it merely
            > a pep talk while reminding
            > us of what we are supposed
            > to believe? Or, do they see
            > themselves as the experts
            > who have memorized scripture,
            > dress up in special garments,
            > while we regular people are
            > the ignorant sheep meant to
            > blindly follow?
            >
            > It is interesting to see a
            > commonality of sorts, but
            > individual choice seems to
            > take precedence as it always
            > will.
            >
            > prometheus
            >
          • etznab18
            Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.   For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 19, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.

                "For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of matter. The second question then is: Where did this matter come from? Though scoffed at but a few years ago, it is now known that matter is but 'congealed energy.' This implies a congealing process and a pre-physical source of matter, something like that of the nonphysical electron. Dr I. Langmuir called this source the quantel, a significant term and we shall use it. A more familiar name, however, is etheric energy. But is this the ultimate source of matter? May it not be but one of the many vibratory rates of energy? It is." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 14]

                "... there has not been a genuine metaphysician in the world for six thousand years. If there had been, he would have seen the fallacies of both science and religion and exposed them." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 16]

              "Would you call a humanity civilized that has a hundred wars in as many years? that spends trillions of dollars on murder weapons while its schools and hospitals close for want of funds? that lets half its people starve while the other half sickens from overeating? Would you call a humanity enlightened that poisons the air, the water and the soil? that doesn't know mythology from history?, or even what it exists for? This is the animal estate." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 75]

              "The cunning hands of the priests perverted the entire Bible. It was they who made the redaction after the so-called Exilic period, and by that time they were the sole authority. Their purpose was the creation of a supernatural basis for a religion, hence the perversion of the original truth, than which there is no greater crime. As Dr. Johnson said: 'I know not any crime so great that a man could contrive to commit as poisoning the source of eternal truth.' And according to Kipling, 'Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind.' And the scriptures are the most deadly concoction of them all. They are the prescientific opiates, tranquilizers and placebos." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 82]

                "If man had divine teachers and divine knowledge in the beginning how did he get like Neanderthal, or even us? This is Devolution." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 102]

              ***

              One thing this book talked about was Involution vs. Evolution. I think it possible that Spirit can become involved with Matter, but I can't really say for sure. It sounds rather paradoxical to me.

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
              >
              > I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
              > evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
              > with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
              > interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
              > M. Graham
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
              > Newtown, CT. Shootings
              >
              >  
              > Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
              > influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
              > happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
              > crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
              > natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
              > pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
              > existence.
              >
              > I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
              > reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
              > make a difficult issue acceptable.
              >
              > Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
              > speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
              > consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.
              >
              > Freedom
              >
              > What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
              > influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
              > experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
              > link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
              > instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
              > is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
              > ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
              > higher consciousness.
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: iam999freedom
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              >
              > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
              > Newtown, CT. Shootings
              >
              >  
              > Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
              > understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
              > comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
              > evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
              > in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
              >
              > Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
              > Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
              > exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
              > which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
              > illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
              > "God"
              > responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
              > individual choice.
              >
              > Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
              > would seem to indicate otherwise.
              >
              > Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
              > looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
              > itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
              > realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
              > know
              > it.
              >
              > Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
              > can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
              > But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
              > and
              > the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
              > myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
              > change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
              > So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
              > is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.
              >
              > And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
              > not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
              > identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
              > identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
              > the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
              > belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
              > believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: iam999freedom
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              >
              > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
              > Newtown, CT. Shootings
              >
              >  
              > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
              > think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
              > world.
              >
              > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
              > knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
              > shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
              > and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
              > to
              > explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
              >
              > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
              > play
              > (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
              > of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
              > indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
              > me to thinks:
              > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
              > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
              >
              > Any thoughts from others?
              >
              > Sincerely,
              > Freedom
              >
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
              > jepfeiffer@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
              > religious leaders would focus on that angle.
              > >  
              > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
              > children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
              > trying to deter him from killing those children.
              > >  
              > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
              > aside
              > to
              > save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
              > demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
              > conditions. 
              > >  
              > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
              > day find peace concerning it
              > >
              > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
              > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
              > Newtown, CT. Shootings
              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hello All,
              > > I've been watching the
              > > TV coverage of this tragedy
              > > for a few days now. It
              > > makes one wonder how
              > > a mentally deranged
              > > young man can do such
              > > evil and to such innocent
              > > children... face-to-face!
              > >
              > > However, I found the
              > > religious take on all
              > > of it to be quite strange.
              > > Some of the comments
              > > in the prayers of the
              > > ministers were odd.
              > >
              > > One cleric said that
              > > it happened in order
              > > to have people to
              > > question life and to
              > > be able to go through
              > > their own transformation.
              > > Thus, it's a test!
              > >
              > > One guy mentioned that
              > > the children would not
              > > have to experience sin.
              > >
              > > "After passion comes
              > > compassion."
              > >
              > > I'm not sure why people
              > > were praying to God and
              > > talking to or beseeching
              > > God when he didn't offer
              > > up any protection to these
              > > innocent children. But,
              > > are innocent children in
              > > other countries protected
              > > from harm? It's like how
              > > Klemp protects his eckists.
              > >
              > > The Governor of CT. sounded
              > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
              > > when talking about after Winter
              > > there will be Spring and growth.
              > >
              > > There is belief that a grander
              > > plan is afoot and that it won't
              > > be revealed until you can no
              > > longer speak and share and
              > > this gives those left hope that
              > > the promises will be fulfilled.
              > >
              > > I'm thinking that Eckists
              > > are probably sad, too, but
              > > also think that they see it
              > > as karma being karma and
              > > that there is no death.
              > >
              > > "What is seen is temporary
              > > but what is unseen is eternal."
              > >
              > > Do clerics merely repeat what
              > > we already know or is it merely
              > > a pep talk while reminding
              > > us of what we are supposed
              > > to believe? Or, do they see
              > > themselves as the experts
              > > who have memorized scripture,
              > > dress up in special garments,
              > > while we regular people are
              > > the ignorant sheep meant to
              > > blindly follow?
              > >
              > > It is interesting to see a
              > > commonality of sorts, but
              > > individual choice seems to
              > > take precedence as it always
              > > will.
              > >
              > > prometheus
              > >
              >
            • iam999freedom
              Sounds like a another critique of mans fallenness and incapacity to establish a sane world. Have heard of all this before which is why I am so obsessed with
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 19, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Sounds like a another critique of mans' fallenness and incapacity to establish a sane world. Have heard of all this before which is why I am so obsessed with coming to a sense of meaningfullness about it all. Will probably get the book hoping it probes a wide spectrum of other issues which helps to "explain the madness".

                Btw, thanks to Prometheus for allowing us to explore these issues on this website. I really feel that part of the cult recovery process is to establish a sense of stability and meaning beyond the cult experience.

                Freedom


                "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                >
                > Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.
                >
                >   "For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of matter. The second question then is: Where did this matter come from? Though scoffed at but a few years ago, it is now known that matter is but 'congealed energy.' This implies a congealing process and a pre-physical source of matter, something like that of the nonphysical electron. Dr I. Langmuir called this source the quantel, a significant term and we shall use it. A more familiar name, however, is etheric energy. But is this the ultimate source of matter? May it not be but one of the many vibratory rates of energy? It is." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 14]
                >
                >   "... there has not been a genuine metaphysician in the world for six thousand years. If there had been, he would have seen the fallacies of both science and religion and exposed them." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 16]
                >
                > "Would you call a humanity civilized that has a hundred wars in as many years? that spends trillions of dollars on murder weapons while its schools and hospitals close for want of funds? that lets half its people starve while the other half sickens from overeating? Would you call a humanity enlightened that poisons the air, the water and the soil? that doesn't know mythology from history?, or even what it exists for? This is the animal estate." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 75]
                >
                > "The cunning hands of the priests perverted the entire Bible. It was they who made the redaction after the so-called Exilic period, and by that time they were the sole authority. Their purpose was the creation of a supernatural basis for a religion, hence the perversion of the original truth, than which there is no greater crime. As Dr. Johnson said: 'I know not any crime so great that a man could contrive to commit as poisoning the source of eternal truth.' And according to Kipling, 'Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind.' And the scriptures are the most deadly concoction of them all. They are the prescientific opiates, tranquilizers and placebos." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 82]
                >
                >   "If man had divine teachers and divine knowledge in the beginning how did he get like Neanderthal, or even us? This is Devolution." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 102]
                >
                > ***
                >
                > One thing this book talked about was Involution vs. Evolution. I think it possible that Spirit can become involved with Matter, but I can't really say for sure. It sounds rather paradoxical to me.
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                > >
                > > I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
                > > evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
                > > with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
                > > interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
                > > M. Graham
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                > >
                > >  
                > > Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
                > > influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
                > > happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
                > > crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
                > > natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
                > > pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
                > > existence.
                > >
                > > I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
                > > reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
                > > make a difficult issue acceptable.
                > >
                > > Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
                > > speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
                > > consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.
                > >
                > > Freedom
                > >
                > > What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
                > > influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
                > > experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
                > > link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
                > > instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
                > > is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
                > > ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
                > > higher consciousness.
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: iam999freedom
                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > >
                > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                > >
                > >  
                > > Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
                > > understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
                > > comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
                > > evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
                > > in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
                > >
                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                > > Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                > > exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                > > which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                > > illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
                > > "God"
                > > responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                > > individual choice.
                > >
                > > Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                > > would seem to indicate otherwise.
                > >
                > > Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                > > looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                > > itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                > > realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
                > > know
                > > it.
                > >
                > > Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                > > can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                > > But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
                > > and
                > > the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                > > myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                > > change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                > > So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                > > is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.
                > >
                > > And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                > > not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                > > identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                > > identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                > > the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                > > belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                > > believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: iam999freedom
                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > >
                > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                > >
                > >  
                > > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                > > think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
                > > world.
                > >
                > > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                > > knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                > > shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                > > and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
                > > to
                > > explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
                > >
                > > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
                > > play
                > > (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                > > of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                > > indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                > > me to thinks:
                > > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                > > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
                > >
                > > Any thoughts from others?
                > >
                > > Sincerely,
                > > Freedom
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                > > jepfeiffer@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                > > religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                > > >  
                > > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                > > children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                > > trying to deter him from killing those children.
                > > >  
                > > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
                > > aside
                > > to
                > > save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                > > demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
                > > conditions. 
                > > >  
                > > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                > > day find peace concerning it
                > > >
                > > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >  
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Hello All,
                > > > I've been watching the
                > > > TV coverage of this tragedy
                > > > for a few days now. It
                > > > makes one wonder how
                > > > a mentally deranged
                > > > young man can do such
                > > > evil and to such innocent
                > > > children... face-to-face!
                > > >
                > > > However, I found the
                > > > religious take on all
                > > > of it to be quite strange.
                > > > Some of the comments
                > > > in the prayers of the
                > > > ministers were odd.
                > > >
                > > > One cleric said that
                > > > it happened in order
                > > > to have people to
                > > > question life and to
                > > > be able to go through
                > > > their own transformation.
                > > > Thus, it's a test!
                > > >
                > > > One guy mentioned that
                > > > the children would not
                > > > have to experience sin.
                > > >
                > > > "After passion comes
                > > > compassion."
                > > >
                > > > I'm not sure why people
                > > > were praying to God and
                > > > talking to or beseeching
                > > > God when he didn't offer
                > > > up any protection to these
                > > > innocent children. But,
                > > > are innocent children in
                > > > other countries protected
                > > > from harm? It's like how
                > > > Klemp protects his eckists.
                > > >
                > > > The Governor of CT. sounded
                > > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                > > > when talking about after Winter
                > > > there will be Spring and growth.
                > > >
                > > > There is belief that a grander
                > > > plan is afoot and that it won't
                > > > be revealed until you can no
                > > > longer speak and share and
                > > > this gives those left hope that
                > > > the promises will be fulfilled.
                > > >
                > > > I'm thinking that Eckists
                > > > are probably sad, too, but
                > > > also think that they see it
                > > > as karma being karma and
                > > > that there is no death.
                > > >
                > > > "What is seen is temporary
                > > > but what is unseen is eternal."
                > > >
                > > > Do clerics merely repeat what
                > > > we already know or is it merely
                > > > a pep talk while reminding
                > > > us of what we are supposed
                > > > to believe? Or, do they see
                > > > themselves as the experts
                > > > who have memorized scripture,
                > > > dress up in special garments,
                > > > while we regular people are
                > > > the ignorant sheep meant to
                > > > blindly follow?
                > > >
                > > > It is interesting to see a
                > > > commonality of sorts, but
                > > > individual choice seems to
                > > > take precedence as it always
                > > > will.
                > > >
                > > > prometheus
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Non
                I think humans are still in the early stages of evolving. We are arrogant about our status in the world, imo, and are still learning how to be better and more
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 20, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  I think humans are still in the early stages of evolving. We are arrogant about our status in the world, imo, and are still learning how to be better and more compassionate. Within us all is a destructive force and a life/creative force. And we are still very much a part of our animal ancestry.

                  It is interesting that some of these horrendous acts are being committed by very intelligent people who lack a sense of feeling and caring, and were very shy and sensitive. Gifted children often lack emotional integrity and are very often confused and even in need of Psychotherapy, especially if they come from a family or school that does not know how to handle teaching emotional intelligence. Something to consider.

                  Non ;)

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Sounds like a another critique of mans' fallenness and incapacity to establish a sane world. Have heard of all this before which is why I am so obsessed with coming to a sense of meaningfullness about it all. Will probably get the book hoping it probes a wide spectrum of other issues which helps to "explain the madness".
                  >
                  > Btw, thanks to Prometheus for allowing us to explore these issues on this website. I really feel that part of the cult recovery process is to establish a sense of stability and meaning beyond the cult experience.
                  >
                  > Freedom
                  >
                  >
                  > "etznab18" <etznab@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.
                  > >
                  > >   "For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of matter. The second question then is: Where did this matter come from? Though scoffed at but a few years ago, it is now known that matter is but 'congealed energy.' This implies a congealing process and a pre-physical source of matter, something like that of the nonphysical electron. Dr I. Langmuir called this source the quantel, a significant term and we shall use it. A more familiar name, however, is etheric energy. But is this the ultimate source of matter? May it not be but one of the many vibratory rates of energy? It is." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 14]
                  > >
                  > >   "... there has not been a genuine metaphysician in the world for six thousand years. If there had been, he would have seen the fallacies of both science and religion and exposed them." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 16]
                  > >
                  > > "Would you call a humanity civilized that has a hundred wars in as many years? that spends trillions of dollars on murder weapons while its schools and hospitals close for want of funds? that lets half its people starve while the other half sickens from overeating? Would you call a humanity enlightened that poisons the air, the water and the soil? that doesn't know mythology from history?, or even what it exists for? This is the animal estate." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 75]
                  > >
                  > > "The cunning hands of the priests perverted the entire Bible. It was they who made the redaction after the so-called Exilic period, and by that time they were the sole authority. Their purpose was the creation of a supernatural basis for a religion, hence the perversion of the original truth, than which there is no greater crime. As Dr. Johnson said: 'I know not any crime so great that a man could contrive to commit as poisoning the source of eternal truth.' And according to Kipling, 'Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind.' And the scriptures are the most deadly concoction of them all. They are the prescientific opiates, tranquilizers and placebos." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 82]
                  > >
                  > >   "If man had divine teachers and divine knowledge in the beginning how did he get like Neanderthal, or even us? This is Devolution." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 102]
                  > >
                  > > ***
                  > >
                  > > One thing this book talked about was Involution vs. Evolution. I think it possible that Spirit can become involved with Matter, but I can't really say for sure. It sounds rather paradoxical to me.
                  > >
                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
                  > > > evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
                  > > > with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
                  > > > interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
                  > > > M. Graham
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                  > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
                  > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                  > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                  > > >
                  > > >  
                  > > > Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
                  > > > influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
                  > > > happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
                  > > > crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
                  > > > natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
                  > > > pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
                  > > > existence.
                  > > >
                  > > > I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
                  > > > reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
                  > > > make a difficult issue acceptable.
                  > > >
                  > > > Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
                  > > > speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
                  > > > consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.
                  > > >
                  > > > Freedom
                  > > >
                  > > > What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
                  > > > influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
                  > > > experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
                  > > > link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
                  > > > instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
                  > > > is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
                  > > > ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
                  > > > higher consciousness.
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: iam999freedom
                  > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > > >
                  > > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
                  > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                  > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                  > > >
                  > > >  
                  > > > Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
                  > > > understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
                  > > > comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
                  > > > evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
                  > > > in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                  > > > Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                  > > > exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                  > > > which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                  > > > illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
                  > > > "God"
                  > > > responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                  > > > individual choice.
                  > > >
                  > > > Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                  > > > would seem to indicate otherwise.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                  > > > looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                  > > > itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                  > > > realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
                  > > > know
                  > > > it.
                  > > >
                  > > > Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                  > > > can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                  > > > But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
                  > > > and
                  > > > the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                  > > > myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                  > > > change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                  > > > So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                  > > > is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.
                  > > >
                  > > > And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                  > > > not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                  > > > identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                  > > > identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                  > > > the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                  > > > belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                  > > > believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: iam999freedom
                  > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > > >
                  > > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                  > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                  > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                  > > >
                  > > >  
                  > > > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                  > > > think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
                  > > > world.
                  > > >
                  > > > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                  > > > knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                  > > > shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                  > > > and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
                  > > > to
                  > > > explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
                  > > >
                  > > > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
                  > > > play
                  > > > (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                  > > > of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                  > > > indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                  > > > me to thinks:
                  > > > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                  > > > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
                  > > >
                  > > > Any thoughts from others?
                  > > >
                  > > > Sincerely,
                  > > > Freedom
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                  > > > jepfeiffer@ wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                  > > > religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                  > > > >  
                  > > > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                  > > > children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                  > > > trying to deter him from killing those children.
                  > > > >  
                  > > > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
                  > > > aside
                  > > > to
                  > > > save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                  > > > demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
                  > > > conditions. 
                  > > > >  
                  > > > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                  > > > day find peace concerning it
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                  > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                  > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                  > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >  
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hello All,
                  > > > > I've been watching the
                  > > > > TV coverage of this tragedy
                  > > > > for a few days now. It
                  > > > > makes one wonder how
                  > > > > a mentally deranged
                  > > > > young man can do such
                  > > > > evil and to such innocent
                  > > > > children... face-to-face!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > However, I found the
                  > > > > religious take on all
                  > > > > of it to be quite strange.
                  > > > > Some of the comments
                  > > > > in the prayers of the
                  > > > > ministers were odd.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > One cleric said that
                  > > > > it happened in order
                  > > > > to have people to
                  > > > > question life and to
                  > > > > be able to go through
                  > > > > their own transformation.
                  > > > > Thus, it's a test!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > One guy mentioned that
                  > > > > the children would not
                  > > > > have to experience sin.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "After passion comes
                  > > > > compassion."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I'm not sure why people
                  > > > > were praying to God and
                  > > > > talking to or beseeching
                  > > > > God when he didn't offer
                  > > > > up any protection to these
                  > > > > innocent children. But,
                  > > > > are innocent children in
                  > > > > other countries protected
                  > > > > from harm? It's like how
                  > > > > Klemp protects his eckists.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The Governor of CT. sounded
                  > > > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                  > > > > when talking about after Winter
                  > > > > there will be Spring and growth.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > There is belief that a grander
                  > > > > plan is afoot and that it won't
                  > > > > be revealed until you can no
                  > > > > longer speak and share and
                  > > > > this gives those left hope that
                  > > > > the promises will be fulfilled.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I'm thinking that Eckists
                  > > > > are probably sad, too, but
                  > > > > also think that they see it
                  > > > > as karma being karma and
                  > > > > that there is no death.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "What is seen is temporary
                  > > > > but what is unseen is eternal."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Do clerics merely repeat what
                  > > > > we already know or is it merely
                  > > > > a pep talk while reminding
                  > > > > us of what we are supposed
                  > > > > to believe? Or, do they see
                  > > > > themselves as the experts
                  > > > > who have memorized scripture,
                  > > > > dress up in special garments,
                  > > > > while we regular people are
                  > > > > the ignorant sheep meant to
                  > > > > blindly follow?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It is interesting to see a
                  > > > > commonality of sorts, but
                  > > > > individual choice seems to
                  > > > > take precedence as it always
                  > > > > will.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > prometheus
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Janice Pfeiffer
                  Wow etznab, that s really deep.  Lots to think about.  ... From: etznab@aol.com Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It s So Sad
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 22, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Wow etznab, that's really deep.  Lots to think about. 

                    --- On Tue, 12/18/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                    From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, December 18, 2012, 1:51 AM

                     
                    Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                    Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                    exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                    which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                    illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God"
                    responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                    individual choice.

                    Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                    would seem to indicate otherwise.

                    Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                    looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                    itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                    realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we know
                    it.

                    Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                    can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                    But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution and
                    the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                    myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                    change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                    So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                    is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

                    And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                    not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                    identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                    identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                    the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                    belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                    believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                    Newtown, CT. Shootings

                     
                    Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                    think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this world.

                    When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                    knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                    shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                    and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used to
                    explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

                    However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the play
                    (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                    of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                    indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                    me to thinks:
                    1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                    2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

                    Any thoughts from others?

                    Sincerely,
                    Freedom

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                    &lt;jepfeiffer@...&gt; wrote:
                    &gt;
                    &gt; Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                    religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                    &gt;  
                    &gt; There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                    children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                    trying to deter him from killing those children.
                    &gt;  
                    &gt; To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside to
                    save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                    demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
                    &gt;  
                    &gt; Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                    day find peace concerning it
                    &gt;
                    &gt; --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@...&gt;
                    wrote:
                    &gt;
                    &gt;
                    &gt; From: prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@...&gt;
                    &gt; Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                    Newtown, CT. Shootings
                    &gt; To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    &gt; Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                    &gt;
                    &gt;
                    &gt;
                    &gt;  
                    &gt;
                    &gt;
                    &gt;
                    &gt; Hello All,
                    &gt; I've been watching the
                    &gt; TV coverage of this tragedy
                    &gt; for a few days now. It
                    &gt; makes one wonder how
                    &gt; a mentally deranged
                    &gt; young man can do such
                    &gt; evil and to such innocent
                    &gt; children... face-to-face!
                    &gt;
                    &gt; However, I found the
                    &gt; religious take on all
                    &gt; of it to be quite strange.
                    &gt; Some of the comments
                    &gt; in the prayers of the
                    &gt; ministers were odd.
                    &gt;
                    &gt; One cleric said that
                    &gt; it happened in order
                    &gt; to have people to
                    &gt; question life and to
                    &gt; be able to go through
                    &gt; their own transformation.
                    &gt; Thus, it's a test!
                    &gt;
                    &gt; One guy mentioned that
                    &gt; the children would not
                    &gt; have to experience sin.
                    &gt;
                    &gt; "After passion comes
                    &gt; compassion."
                    &gt;
                    &gt; I'm not sure why people
                    &gt; were praying to God and
                    &gt; talking to or beseeching
                    &gt; God when he didn't offer
                    &gt; up any protection to these
                    &gt; innocent children. But,
                    &gt; are innocent children in
                    &gt; other countries protected
                    &gt; from harm? It's like how
                    &gt; Klemp protects his eckists.
                    &gt;
                    &gt; The Governor of CT. sounded
                    &gt; like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                    &gt; when talking about after Winter
                    &gt; there will be Spring and growth.
                    &gt;
                    &gt; There is belief that a grander
                    &gt; plan is afoot and that it won't
                    &gt; be revealed until you can no
                    &gt; longer speak and share and
                    &gt; this gives those left hope that
                    &gt; the promises will be fulfilled.
                    &gt;
                    &gt; I'm thinking that Eckists
                    &gt; are probably sad, too, but
                    &gt; also think that they see it
                    &gt; as karma being karma and
                    &gt; that there is no death.
                    &gt;
                    &gt; "What is seen is temporary
                    &gt; but what is unseen is eternal."
                    &gt;
                    &gt; Do clerics merely repeat what
                    &gt; we already know or is it merely
                    &gt; a pep talk while reminding
                    &gt; us of what we are supposed
                    &gt; to believe? Or, do they see
                    &gt; themselves as the experts
                    &gt; who have memorized scripture,
                    &gt; dress up in special garments,
                    &gt; while we regular people are
                    &gt; the ignorant sheep meant to
                    &gt; blindly follow?
                    &gt;
                    &gt; It is interesting to see a
                    &gt; commonality of sorts, but
                    &gt; individual choice seems to
                    &gt; take precedence as it always
                    &gt; will.
                    &gt;
                    &gt; prometheus
                    &gt;

                  • harrisonferrel
                    My thoughts on this? Much time is spent with suppositions. Does god exist? Most likely not. There is no evidence except what people rationalize is evidence. I
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 4, 2013
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                      My thoughts on this?

                      Much time is spent with suppositions. Does god exist? Most likely not. There is no evidence except what people rationalize is evidence. I agree about the lack of logic and posit: If god is all knowing all seeing and all loving, then there is a huge problem. No evil or suffering would take place. Ever. I tend to agree with Christopher Hitchens that God is Not Great. God would have to be a psychopath to allow what goes on here. The only explanations as to why are merely rationalizations in fear of letting go of this primitive idea that has never been substantiated.

                      I have no belief in god, karma, spirit, etc. And it feels good. I remain open minded but thus far cannot commit to ideas that are without basis. How does this make me feel? Free. God was invented by man. If you understand history you will see that the idea of god was an evolution and not an epiphany. It's a pretty weak and immature worldview that leads one to think that there is a force that guides everything and has some sort of intelligence. To paraphrase Sam Harris, Just because we don't know what the answer is does not mean that there is no answer. I would rather admit that I am ignorant or uninformed than to say there is a god or supernatural world.

                      And, yes, I've had plenty of "experiences," but now I understand what they were and I cannot say they were anything otherworldly.


                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this world.
                      >
                      > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used to explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
                      >
                      > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the play (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads me to thinks:
                      > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                      > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
                      >
                      > Any thoughts from others?
                      >
                      > Sincerely,
                      > Freedom
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                      > >  
                      > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed trying to deter him from killing those children.
                      > >  
                      > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside to save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
                      > >  
                      > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one day find peace concerning it
                      > >
                      > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                      > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings
                      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hello All,
                      > > I've been watching the
                      > > TV coverage of this tragedy
                      > > for a few days now. It
                      > > makes one wonder how
                      > > a mentally deranged
                      > > young man can do such
                      > > evil and to such innocent
                      > > children... face-to-face!
                      > >
                      > > However, I found the
                      > > religious take on all
                      > > of it to be quite strange.
                      > > Some of the comments
                      > > in the prayers of the
                      > > ministers were odd.
                      > >
                      > > One cleric said that
                      > > it happened in order
                      > > to have people to
                      > > question life and to
                      > > be able to go through
                      > > their own transformation.
                      > > Thus, it's a test!
                      > >
                      > > One guy mentioned that
                      > > the children would not
                      > > have to experience sin.
                      > >
                      > > "After passion comes
                      > > compassion."
                      > >
                      > > I'm not sure why people
                      > > were praying to God and
                      > > talking to or beseeching
                      > > God when he didn't offer
                      > > up any protection to these
                      > > innocent children. But,
                      > > are innocent children in
                      > > other countries protected
                      > > from harm? It's like how
                      > > Klemp protects his eckists.
                      > >
                      > > The Governor of CT. sounded
                      > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                      > > when talking about after Winter
                      > > there will be Spring and growth.
                      > >
                      > > There is belief that a grander
                      > > plan is afoot and that it won't
                      > > be revealed until you can no
                      > > longer speak and share and
                      > > this gives those left hope that
                      > > the promises will be fulfilled.
                      > >
                      > > I'm thinking that Eckists
                      > > are probably sad, too, but
                      > > also think that they see it
                      > > as karma being karma and
                      > > that there is no death.
                      > >
                      > > "What is seen is temporary
                      > > but what is unseen is eternal."
                      > >
                      > > Do clerics merely repeat what
                      > > we already know or is it merely
                      > > a pep talk while reminding
                      > > us of what we are supposed
                      > > to believe? Or, do they see
                      > > themselves as the experts
                      > > who have memorized scripture,
                      > > dress up in special garments,
                      > > while we regular people are
                      > > the ignorant sheep meant to
                      > > blindly follow?
                      > >
                      > > It is interesting to see a
                      > > commonality of sorts, but
                      > > individual choice seems to
                      > > take precedence as it always
                      > > will.
                      > >
                      > > prometheus
                      > >
                      >
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