Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings

Expand Messages
  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, I ve been watching the TV coverage of this tragedy for a few days now. It makes one wonder how a mentally deranged young man can do such evil and to
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 16, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello All,
      I've been watching the
      TV coverage of this tragedy
      for a few days now. It
      makes one wonder how
      a mentally deranged
      young man can do such
      evil and to such innocent
      children... face-to-face!

      However, I found the
      religious take on all
      of it to be quite strange.
      Some of the comments
      in the prayers of the
      ministers were odd.

      One cleric said that
      it happened in order
      to have people to
      question life and to
      be able to go through
      their own transformation.
      Thus, it's a test!

      One guy mentioned that
      the children would not
      have to experience sin.

      "After passion comes
      compassion."

      I'm not sure why people
      were praying to God and
      talking to or beseeching
      God when he didn't offer
      up any protection to these
      innocent children. But,
      are innocent children in
      other countries protected
      from harm? It's like how
      Klemp protects his eckists.

      The Governor of CT. sounded
      like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
      when talking about after Winter
      there will be Spring and growth.

      There is belief that a grander
      plan is afoot and that it won't
      be revealed until you can no
      longer speak and share and
      this gives those left hope that
      the promises will be fulfilled.

      I'm thinking that Eckists
      are probably sad, too, but
      also think that they see it
      as karma being karma and
      that there is no death.

      "What is seen is temporary
      but what is unseen is eternal."

      Do clerics merely repeat what
      we already know or is it merely
      a pep talk while reminding
      us of what we are supposed
      to believe? Or, do they see
      themselves as the experts
      who have memorized scripture,
      dress up in special garments,
      while we regular people are
      the ignorant sheep meant to
      blindly follow?

      It is interesting to see a
      commonality of sorts, but
      individual choice seems to
      take precedence as it always
      will.

      prometheus
    • Janice Pfeiffer
      The news reports on these things brought tears to my eyes.  The terror those little kids must have felt had to be tremendous.   I didn t read any comments by
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 17, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        The news reports on these things brought tears to my eyes.  The terror those little kids must have felt had to be tremendous.
         
        I didn't read any comments by clergy but I guess ministers always use things like that to convince people they need to evaluate their lives and turn to God.  I don't see how anyone could think God is demonstating a grander plan or even preparing people for his grander plan by such horrific tragedies like this.  Seems like the Governor didn't know what to say so he wants to rush into spring.  I can not believe a minister would imply that kids are better off dead to avoid sin.
         
        I guess I would be closer to the eckist on this one.  Although it hurts me to think of the terror those little babes must have felt, I believe those who died will be okay and that they do live. 
         
        These kinds of things are so sad because they are senseless.  There does not seem to be any real reason why those children and teachers died except one very mean spirited individual did it.
         
        I am tired of hearing about the mental illness angle.  These people aren't mentally ill,  They have sense enough to plan it out.  They are sick some where deep in their souls. Even most fierce animals don't kill for anything but the need for food.  No one with a soul could claim they killed little kids because they were angry, sad, hurt, jealous or whatever.
         
        But then again, maybe if there is a next lesson for me it will be developing some compassion for people who are cold enough to take a gun and shoot little kids. 
         
        Pretty steep order, I would say

        --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM

         
        Hello All,
        I've been watching the
        TV coverage of this tragedy
        for a few days now. It
        makes one wonder how
        a mentally deranged
        young man can do such
        evil and to such innocent
        children... face-to-face!

        However, I found the
        religious take on all
        of it to be quite strange.
        Some of the comments
        in the prayers of the
        ministers were odd.

        One cleric said that
        it happened in order
        to have people to
        question life and to
        be able to go through
        their own transformation.
        Thus, it's a test!

        One guy mentioned that
        the children would not
        have to experience sin.

        "After passion comes
        compassion."

        I'm not sure why people
        were praying to God and
        talking to or beseeching
        God when he didn't offer
        up any protection to these
        innocent children. But,
        are innocent children in
        other countries protected
        from harm? It's like how
        Klemp protects his eckists.

        The Governor of CT. sounded
        like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
        when talking about after Winter
        there will be Spring and growth.

        There is belief that a grander
        plan is afoot and that it won't
        be revealed until you can no
        longer speak and share and
        this gives those left hope that
        the promises will be fulfilled.

        I'm thinking that Eckists
        are probably sad, too, but
        also think that they see it
        as karma being karma and
        that there is no death.

        "What is seen is temporary
        but what is unseen is eternal."

        Do clerics merely repeat what
        we already know or is it merely
        a pep talk while reminding
        us of what we are supposed
        to believe? Or, do they see
        themselves as the experts
        who have memorized scripture,
        dress up in special garments,
        while we regular people are
        the ignorant sheep meant to
        blindly follow?

        It is interesting to see a
        commonality of sorts, but
        individual choice seems to
        take precedence as it always
        will.

        prometheus

      • Janice Pfeiffer
        Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think religious leaders would focus on that angle.   There were teachers and school officials who died
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 17, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think religious leaders would focus on that angle.
           
          There were teachers and school officials who died shielding children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed trying to deter him from killing those children.
           
          To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside to save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
           
          Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one day find peace concerning it

          --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM

           
          Hello All,
          I've been watching the
          TV coverage of this tragedy
          for a few days now. It
          makes one wonder how
          a mentally deranged
          young man can do such
          evil and to such innocent
          children... face-to-face!

          However, I found the
          religious take on all
          of it to be quite strange.
          Some of the comments
          in the prayers of the
          ministers were odd.

          One cleric said that
          it happened in order
          to have people to
          question life and to
          be able to go through
          their own transformation.
          Thus, it's a test!

          One guy mentioned that
          the children would not
          have to experience sin.

          "After passion comes
          compassion."

          I'm not sure why people
          were praying to God and
          talking to or beseeching
          God when he didn't offer
          up any protection to these
          innocent children. But,
          are innocent children in
          other countries protected
          from harm? It's like how
          Klemp protects his eckists.

          The Governor of CT. sounded
          like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
          when talking about after Winter
          there will be Spring and growth.

          There is belief that a grander
          plan is afoot and that it won't
          be revealed until you can no
          longer speak and share and
          this gives those left hope that
          the promises will be fulfilled.

          I'm thinking that Eckists
          are probably sad, too, but
          also think that they see it
          as karma being karma and
          that there is no death.

          "What is seen is temporary
          but what is unseen is eternal."

          Do clerics merely repeat what
          we already know or is it merely
          a pep talk while reminding
          us of what we are supposed
          to believe? Or, do they see
          themselves as the experts
          who have memorized scripture,
          dress up in special garments,
          while we regular people are
          the ignorant sheep meant to
          blindly follow?

          It is interesting to see a
          commonality of sorts, but
          individual choice seems to
          take precedence as it always
          will.

          prometheus

        • iam999freedom
          Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this world. When God,(if there
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 17, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this world.

            When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used to explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

            However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the play (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads me to thinks:
            1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
            2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

            Any thoughts from others?

            Sincerely,
            Freedom


            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
            >
            > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think religious leaders would focus on that angle.
            >  
            > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed trying to deter him from killing those children.
            >  
            > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside to save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
            >  
            > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one day find peace concerning it
            >
            > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello All,
            > I've been watching the
            > TV coverage of this tragedy
            > for a few days now. It
            > makes one wonder how
            > a mentally deranged
            > young man can do such
            > evil and to such innocent
            > children... face-to-face!
            >
            > However, I found the
            > religious take on all
            > of it to be quite strange.
            > Some of the comments
            > in the prayers of the
            > ministers were odd.
            >
            > One cleric said that
            > it happened in order
            > to have people to
            > question life and to
            > be able to go through
            > their own transformation.
            > Thus, it's a test!
            >
            > One guy mentioned that
            > the children would not
            > have to experience sin.
            >
            > "After passion comes
            > compassion."
            >
            > I'm not sure why people
            > were praying to God and
            > talking to or beseeching
            > God when he didn't offer
            > up any protection to these
            > innocent children. But,
            > are innocent children in
            > other countries protected
            > from harm? It's like how
            > Klemp protects his eckists.
            >
            > The Governor of CT. sounded
            > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
            > when talking about after Winter
            > there will be Spring and growth.
            >
            > There is belief that a grander
            > plan is afoot and that it won't
            > be revealed until you can no
            > longer speak and share and
            > this gives those left hope that
            > the promises will be fulfilled.
            >
            > I'm thinking that Eckists
            > are probably sad, too, but
            > also think that they see it
            > as karma being karma and
            > that there is no death.
            >
            > "What is seen is temporary
            > but what is unseen is eternal."
            >
            > Do clerics merely repeat what
            > we already know or is it merely
            > a pep talk while reminding
            > us of what we are supposed
            > to believe? Or, do they see
            > themselves as the experts
            > who have memorized scripture,
            > dress up in special garments,
            > while we regular people are
            > the ignorant sheep meant to
            > blindly follow?
            >
            > It is interesting to see a
            > commonality of sorts, but
            > individual choice seems to
            > take precedence as it always
            > will.
            >
            > prometheus
            >
          • etznab@aol.com
            Here s an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that exists, all
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 17, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
              Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
              exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
              which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
              illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God"
              responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
              individual choice.

              Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
              would seem to indicate otherwise.

              Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
              looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
              itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
              realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we know
              it.

              Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
              can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
              But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution and
              the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
              myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
              change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
              So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
              is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

              And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
              not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
              identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
              identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
              the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
              belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
              believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
              Newtown, CT. Shootings

               
              Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
              think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this world.

              When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
              knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
              shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
              and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used to
              explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

              However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the play
              (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
              of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
              indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
              me to thinks:
              1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
              2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

              Any thoughts from others?

              Sincerely,
              Freedom


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
              <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
              >
              > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
              religious leaders would focus on that angle.
              >  
              > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
              children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
              trying to deter him from killing those children.
              >  
              > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside to
              save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
              demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
              >  
              > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
              day find peace concerning it
              >
              > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
              Newtown, CT. Shootings
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello All,
              > I've been watching the
              > TV coverage of this tragedy
              > for a few days now. It
              > makes one wonder how
              > a mentally deranged
              > young man can do such
              > evil and to such innocent
              > children... face-to-face!
              >
              > However, I found the
              > religious take on all
              > of it to be quite strange.
              > Some of the comments
              > in the prayers of the
              > ministers were odd.
              >
              > One cleric said that
              > it happened in order
              > to have people to
              > question life and to
              > be able to go through
              > their own transformation.
              > Thus, it's a test!
              >
              > One guy mentioned that
              > the children would not
              > have to experience sin.
              >
              > "After passion comes
              > compassion."
              >
              > I'm not sure why people
              > were praying to God and
              > talking to or beseeching
              > God when he didn't offer
              > up any protection to these
              > innocent children. But,
              > are innocent children in
              > other countries protected
              > from harm? It's like how
              > Klemp protects his eckists.
              >
              > The Governor of CT. sounded
              > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
              > when talking about after Winter
              > there will be Spring and growth.
              >
              > There is belief that a grander
              > plan is afoot and that it won't
              > be revealed until you can no
              > longer speak and share and
              > this gives those left hope that
              > the promises will be fulfilled.
              >
              > I'm thinking that Eckists
              > are probably sad, too, but
              > also think that they see it
              > as karma being karma and
              > that there is no death.
              >
              > "What is seen is temporary
              > but what is unseen is eternal."
              >
              > Do clerics merely repeat what
              > we already know or is it merely
              > a pep talk while reminding
              > us of what we are supposed
              > to believe? Or, do they see
              > themselves as the experts
              > who have memorized scripture,
              > dress up in special garments,
              > while we regular people are
              > the ignorant sheep meant to
              > blindly follow?
              >
              > It is interesting to see a
              > commonality of sorts, but
              > individual choice seems to
              > take precedence as it always
              > will.
              >
              > prometheus
              >
            • iam999freedom
              Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your comments as I think you
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 17, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:

                Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God"
                responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                individual choice.

                Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                would seem to indicate otherwise.

                Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we know
                it.

                Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution and
                the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

                And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: iam999freedom
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

                Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                Newtown, CT. Shootings

                 
                Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this world.

                When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used to
                explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

                However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the play
                (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                me to thinks:
                1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

                Any thoughts from others?

                Sincerely,
                Freedom


                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                jepfeiffer@ wrote:
                >
                > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                >  
                > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                trying to deter him from killing those children.
                >  
                > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside to
                save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
                >  
                > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                day find peace concerning it
                >
                > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                Newtown, CT. Shootings
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello All,
                > I've been watching the
                > TV coverage of this tragedy
                > for a few days now. It
                > makes one wonder how
                > a mentally deranged
                > young man can do such
                > evil and to such innocent
                > children... face-to-face!
                >
                > However, I found the
                > religious take on all
                > of it to be quite strange.
                > Some of the comments
                > in the prayers of the
                > ministers were odd.
                >
                > One cleric said that
                > it happened in order
                > to have people to
                > question life and to
                > be able to go through
                > their own transformation.
                > Thus, it's a test!
                >
                > One guy mentioned that
                > the children would not
                > have to experience sin.
                >
                > "After passion comes
                > compassion."
                >
                > I'm not sure why people
                > were praying to God and
                > talking to or beseeching
                > God when he didn't offer
                > up any protection to these
                > innocent children. But,
                > are innocent children in
                > other countries protected
                > from harm? It's like how
                > Klemp protects his eckists.
                >
                > The Governor of CT. sounded
                > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                > when talking about after Winter
                > there will be Spring and growth.
                >
                > There is belief that a grander
                > plan is afoot and that it won't
                > be revealed until you can no
                > longer speak and share and
                > this gives those left hope that
                > the promises will be fulfilled.
                >
                > I'm thinking that Eckists
                > are probably sad, too, but
                > also think that they see it
                > as karma being karma and
                > that there is no death.
                >
                > "What is seen is temporary
                > but what is unseen is eternal."
                >
                > Do clerics merely repeat what
                > we already know or is it merely
                > a pep talk while reminding
                > us of what we are supposed
                > to believe? Or, do they see
                > themselves as the experts
                > who have memorized scripture,
                > dress up in special garments,
                > while we regular people are
                > the ignorant sheep meant to
                > blindly follow?
                >
                > It is interesting to see a
                > commonality of sorts, but
                > individual choice seems to
                > take precedence as it always
                > will.
                >
                > prometheus
                >
              • Non
                It is beyond sad to numbing and shocking. I think it is our culture of violence. It is difficult to even find a good movie with a decent story line that isn t
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 18, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  It is beyond sad to numbing and shocking. I think it is our culture of violence. It is difficult to even find a good movie with a decent story line that isn't filled with blood and explicit gore. I went to a recent Bond movie and honestly was bored and left. Where was the subtle humor and sexual innuendo, just in your face violence and malevolence, no imagination. Go looking for a fun video game and most of them are war games of some sort.

                  As far as religion in these circumstances, they are still caught up in trying to fit it into God's Will, or what have you. I see it as a failure to give and teach real empathy and compassion. Admitting to their part as abusive and neglectful and even lacking "Soul" or "Heart", just going through the motions of ritual. I know I overgeneralize, but ....

                  Without knowing all of the details, there is one blaring detail, and that is a very unstable household in which there were a lot of bullets and high powered rifles and guns, and apparently a lot of rage.

                  I am reminded of the song from South Pacific..."You have to be taught to hate and fear....".

                  I believe we have lost or never adequately have achieved our sense of community or caring. We have a long way to go. There are some societies in the past and present where violence was/is rare and isolation and depression a very low occurrence. We are/have been a society of conquest, and yes even genocide.

                  Beginning with treating children with kindness while teaching boundaries and respect for each other is not an impossible task. We do not live in a society that places children and their care first. We are often looking at children committing these crimes. Boys are neglected imo, and abused more often than is admitted. Perfectionism is not necessarily a good goal. There is too much competition....not enough cooperation. IMHO

                  PEACE

                  Non

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" wrote:

                  Hello All,
                  I've been watching the
                  TV coverage of this tragedy
                  for a few days now. It
                  makes one wonder how
                  a mentally deranged
                  young man can do such
                  evil and to such innocent
                  children... face-to-face!

                  However, I found the
                  religious take on all
                  of it to be quite strange.
                  Some of the comments
                  in the prayers of the
                  ministers were odd.

                  One cleric said that
                  it happened in order
                  to have people to
                  question life and to
                  be able to go through
                  their own transformation.
                  Thus, it's a test!

                  One guy mentioned that
                  the children would not
                  have to experience sin.

                  "After passion comes
                  compassion."

                  I'm not sure why people
                  were praying to God and
                  talking to or beseeching
                  God when he didn't offer
                  up any protection to these
                  innocent children. But,
                  are innocent children in
                  other countries protected
                  from harm? It's like how
                  Klemp protects his eckists.

                  The Governor of CT. sounded
                  like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                  when talking about after Winter
                  there will be Spring and growth.

                  There is belief that a grander
                  plan is afoot and that it won't
                  be revealed until you can no
                  longer speak and share and
                  this gives those left hope that
                  the promises will be fulfilled.

                  I'm thinking that Eckists
                  are probably sad, too, but
                  also think that they see it
                  as karma being karma and
                  that there is no death.

                  "What is seen is temporary
                  but what is unseen is eternal."

                  Do clerics merely repeat what
                  we already know or is it merely
                  a pep talk while reminding
                  us of what we are supposed
                  to believe? Or, do they see
                  themselves as the experts
                  who have memorized scripture,
                  dress up in special garments,
                  while we regular people are
                  the ignorant sheep meant to
                  blindly follow?

                  It is interesting to see a
                  commonality of sorts, but
                  individual choice seems to
                  take precedence as it always
                  will.

                  prometheus
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Non and All, When one looks at the mother of the shooter she appears different to different people. She was intelligent, wealthier than most, and she was
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 18, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Non and All,
                    When one looks at the
                    mother of the shooter
                    she appears different
                    to different people.

                    She was intelligent,
                    wealthier than most,
                    and she was generous.
                    She could have passed
                    as a saint.

                    Then, there was the
                    private side where
                    she seemed to share
                    a similar paranoia as
                    her one son displayed.
                    She didn't want to talk
                    about getting help for
                    him, but just hoped
                    and prayed that he
                    would magically
                    grow out of it.

                    She owned several
                    guns and was in the
                    doomsday prepper
                    mindset. Her husband
                    was out of the picture
                    but was successful
                    (had money) from afar.
                    However, both were
                    failures as parents and
                    as protectors to their
                    one child and, especially,
                    to society. I see a law
                    suit on the horizon.

                    The media has stated
                    how close-knit the
                    Newtown community
                    was. But that's not true.
                    People knew that her
                    son had issues, knew
                    that she had guns, and
                    knew that shootings
                    by deranged young
                    men aren't all that
                    uncommon. Still,
                    nothing was done,
                    there was no intervention.

                    People were afraid
                    to cross boundaries
                    and to get into her
                    personal space. Plus,
                    people liked her and
                    she had money. But
                    I'm thinking that she
                    didn't want herself,
                    and maybe her son,
                    stigmatized by seeking
                    help for his Mental
                    illness. However,
                    someone in the community
                    should have stepped
                    in just the same. It
                    wasn't like his odd
                    paranoid schizophrenic
                    behaviour was hidden
                    from view when he
                    was in school.

                    People live in their own
                    private little worlds and
                    we respect their right
                    to do that, but maybe
                    we've given them too
                    much freedom when
                    they haven't demonstrated
                    responsibility. Forced
                    care and prevention
                    and the tracking of
                    sick people for follow-up
                    seems to be one alternative.

                    Isn't that what "community"
                    should be more about?

                    But one has to wonder.
                    Where was the "religious"
                    community? What was
                    their role in all of this?
                    Is everything with them
                    after-the-fact?

                    Prometheus


                    "Non" wrote:
                    It is beyond sad to numbing and shocking. I think it is our culture of violence.
                    It is difficult to even find a good movie with a decent story line that isn't
                    filled with blood and explicit gore. I went to a recent Bond movie and honestly
                    was bored and left. Where was the subtle humor and sexual innuendo, just in your
                    face violence and malevolence, no imagination. Go looking for a fun video game
                    and most of them are war games of some sort.

                    As far as religion in these circumstances, they are still caught up in trying to
                    fit it into God's Will, or what have you. I see it as a failure to give and
                    teach real empathy and compassion. Admitting to their part as abusive and
                    neglectful and even lacking "Soul" or "Heart", just going through the motions of
                    ritual. I know I overgeneralize, but ....

                    Without knowing all of the details, there is one blaring detail, and that is a
                    very unstable household in which there were a lot of bullets and high powered
                    rifles and guns, and apparently a lot of rage.

                    I am reminded of the song from South Pacific..."You have to be taught to hate
                    and fear....".

                    I believe we have lost or never adequately have achieved our sense of community
                    or caring. We have a long way to go. There are some societies in the past and
                    present where violence was/is rare and isolation and depression a very low
                    occurrence. We are/have been a society of conquest, and yes even genocide.

                    Beginning with treating children with kindness while teaching boundaries and
                    respect for each other is not an impossible task. We do not live in a society
                    that places children and their care first. We are often looking at children
                    committing these crimes. Boys are neglected imo, and abused more often than is
                    admitted. Perfectionism is not necessarily a good goal. There is too much
                    competition....not enough cooperation. IMHO

                    PEACE

                    Non

                    "prometheus" wrote:

                    Hello All,
                    I've been watching the
                    TV coverage of this tragedy
                    for a few days now. It
                    makes one wonder how
                    a mentally deranged
                    young man can do such
                    evil and to such innocent
                    children... face-to-face!

                    However, I found the
                    religious take on all
                    of it to be quite strange.
                    Some of the comments
                    in the prayers of the
                    ministers were odd.

                    One cleric said that
                    it happened in order
                    to have people to
                    question life and to
                    be able to go through
                    their own transformation.
                    Thus, it's a test!

                    One guy mentioned that
                    the children would not
                    have to experience sin.

                    "After passion comes
                    compassion."

                    I'm not sure why people
                    were praying to God and
                    talking to or beseeching
                    God when he didn't offer
                    up any protection to these
                    innocent children. But,
                    are innocent children in
                    other countries protected
                    from harm? It's like how
                    Klemp protects his eckists.

                    The Governor of CT. sounded
                    like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                    when talking about after Winter
                    there will be Spring and growth.

                    There is belief that a grander
                    plan is afoot and that it won't
                    be revealed until you can no
                    longer speak and share and
                    this gives those left hope that
                    the promises will be fulfilled.

                    I'm thinking that Eckists
                    are probably sad, too, but
                    also think that they see it
                    as karma being karma and
                    that there is no death.

                    "What is seen is temporary
                    but what is unseen is eternal."

                    Do clerics merely repeat what
                    we already know or is it merely
                    a pep talk while reminding
                    us of what we are supposed
                    to believe? Or, do they see
                    themselves as the experts
                    who have memorized scripture,
                    dress up in special garments,
                    while we regular people are
                    the ignorant sheep meant to
                    blindly follow?

                    It is interesting to see a
                    commonality of sorts, but
                    individual choice seems to
                    take precedence as it always
                    will.

                    prometheus
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own experiences, and a website I
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 18, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
                      influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
                      experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
                      link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
                      instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
                      is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
                      ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
                      higher consciousness.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                      Newtown, CT. Shootings

                       
                      Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
                      understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
                      comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
                      evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
                      in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:

                      Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                      Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                      exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                      which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                      illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
                      "God"
                      responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                      individual choice.

                      Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                      would seem to indicate otherwise.

                      Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                      looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                      itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                      realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
                      know
                      it.

                      Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                      can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                      But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
                      and
                      the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                      myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                      change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                      So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                      is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

                      And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                      not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                      identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                      identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                      the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                      belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                      believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: iam999freedom
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

                      Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                      Newtown, CT. Shootings

                       
                      Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                      think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
                      world.

                      When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                      knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                      shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                      and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
                      to
                      explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

                      However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
                      play
                      (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                      of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                      indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                      me to thinks:
                      1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                      2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

                      Any thoughts from others?

                      Sincerely,
                      Freedom


                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                      jepfeiffer@ wrote:
                      >
                      > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                      religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                      >  
                      > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                      children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                      trying to deter him from killing those children.
                      >  
                      > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside
                      to
                      save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                      demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
                      >  
                      > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                      day find peace concerning it
                      >
                      > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                      Newtown, CT. Shootings
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      > I've been watching the
                      > TV coverage of this tragedy
                      > for a few days now. It
                      > makes one wonder how
                      > a mentally deranged
                      > young man can do such
                      > evil and to such innocent
                      > children... face-to-face!
                      >
                      > However, I found the
                      > religious take on all
                      > of it to be quite strange.
                      > Some of the comments
                      > in the prayers of the
                      > ministers were odd.
                      >
                      > One cleric said that
                      > it happened in order
                      > to have people to
                      > question life and to
                      > be able to go through
                      > their own transformation.
                      > Thus, it's a test!
                      >
                      > One guy mentioned that
                      > the children would not
                      > have to experience sin.
                      >
                      > "After passion comes
                      > compassion."
                      >
                      > I'm not sure why people
                      > were praying to God and
                      > talking to or beseeching
                      > God when he didn't offer
                      > up any protection to these
                      > innocent children. But,
                      > are innocent children in
                      > other countries protected
                      > from harm? It's like how
                      > Klemp protects his eckists.
                      >
                      > The Governor of CT. sounded
                      > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                      > when talking about after Winter
                      > there will be Spring and growth.
                      >
                      > There is belief that a grander
                      > plan is afoot and that it won't
                      > be revealed until you can no
                      > longer speak and share and
                      > this gives those left hope that
                      > the promises will be fulfilled.
                      >
                      > I'm thinking that Eckists
                      > are probably sad, too, but
                      > also think that they see it
                      > as karma being karma and
                      > that there is no death.
                      >
                      > "What is seen is temporary
                      > but what is unseen is eternal."
                      >
                      > Do clerics merely repeat what
                      > we already know or is it merely
                      > a pep talk while reminding
                      > us of what we are supposed
                      > to believe? Or, do they see
                      > themselves as the experts
                      > who have memorized scripture,
                      > dress up in special garments,
                      > while we regular people are
                      > the ignorant sheep meant to
                      > blindly follow?
                      >
                      > It is interesting to see a
                      > commonality of sorts, but
                      > individual choice seems to
                      > take precedence as it always
                      > will.
                      >
                      > prometheus
                      >
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      The mother reportedly took her son to the firing range and he was taught how to shoot the guns. So he knew how to use them. Something about this whole story
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 18, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The mother reportedly took her son to the firing range and he was
                        taught how to shoot the guns. So he knew how to use them.

                        Something about this whole story just doesn't sound right to me. I
                        think there are probably other missing pieces.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 10:30 am
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                        Newtown, CT. Shootings

                         
                        Hello Non and All,
                        When one looks at the
                        mother of the shooter
                        she appears different
                        to different people.

                        She was intelligent,
                        wealthier than most,
                        and she was generous.
                        She could have passed
                        as a saint.

                        Then, there was the
                        private side where
                        she seemed to share
                        a similar paranoia as
                        her one son displayed.
                        She didn't want to talk
                        about getting help for
                        him, but just hoped
                        and prayed that he
                        would magically
                        grow out of it.

                        She owned several
                        guns and was in the
                        doomsday prepper
                        mindset. Her husband
                        was out of the picture
                        but was successful
                        (had money) from afar.
                        However, both were
                        failures as parents and
                        as protectors to their
                        one child and, especially,
                        to society. I see a law
                        suit on the horizon.

                        The media has stated
                        how close-knit the
                        Newtown community
                        was. But that's not true.
                        People knew that her
                        son had issues, knew
                        that she had guns, and
                        knew that shootings
                        by deranged young
                        men aren't all that
                        uncommon. Still,
                        nothing was done,
                        there was no intervention.

                        People were afraid
                        to cross boundaries
                        and to get into her
                        personal space. Plus,
                        people liked her and
                        she had money. But
                        I'm thinking that she
                        didn't want herself,
                        and maybe her son,
                        stigmatized by seeking
                        help for his Mental
                        illness. However,
                        someone in the community
                        should have stepped
                        in just the same. It
                        wasn't like his odd
                        paranoid schizophrenic
                        behaviour was hidden
                        from view when he
                        was in school.

                        People live in their own
                        private little worlds and
                        we respect their right
                        to do that, but maybe
                        we've given them too
                        much freedom when
                        they haven't demonstrated
                        responsibility. Forced
                        care and prevention
                        and the tracking of
                        sick people for follow-up
                        seems to be one alternative.

                        Isn't that what "community"
                        should be more about?

                        But one has to wonder.
                        Where was the "religious"
                        community? What was
                        their role in all of this?
                        Is everything with them
                        after-the-fact?

                        Prometheus

                        "Non" wrote:
                        It is beyond sad to numbing and shocking. I think it is our culture of
                        violence.
                        It is difficult to even find a good movie with a decent story line that
                        isn't
                        filled with blood and explicit gore. I went to a recent Bond movie and
                        honestly
                        was bored and left. Where was the subtle humor and sexual innuendo,
                        just in your
                        face violence and malevolence, no imagination. Go looking for a fun
                        video game
                        and most of them are war games of some sort.

                        As far as religion in these circumstances, they are still caught up in
                        trying to
                        fit it into God's Will, or what have you. I see it as a failure to give
                        and
                        teach real empathy and compassion. Admitting to their part as abusive
                        and
                        neglectful and even lacking "Soul" or "Heart", just going through the
                        motions of
                        ritual. I know I overgeneralize, but ....

                        Without knowing all of the details, there is one blaring detail, and
                        that is a
                        very unstable household in which there were a lot of bullets and high
                        powered
                        rifles and guns, and apparently a lot of rage.

                        I am reminded of the song from South Pacific..."You have to be taught
                        to hate
                        and fear....".

                        I believe we have lost or never adequately have achieved our sense of
                        community
                        or caring. We have a long way to go. There are some societies in the
                        past and
                        present where violence was/is rare and isolation and depression a very
                        low
                        occurrence. We are/have been a society of conquest, and yes even
                        genocide.

                        Beginning with treating children with kindness while teaching
                        boundaries and
                        respect for each other is not an impossible task. We do not live in a
                        society
                        that places children and their care first. We are often looking at
                        children
                        committing these crimes. Boys are neglected imo, and abused more often
                        than is
                        admitted. Perfectionism is not necessarily a good goal. There is too
                        much
                        competition....not enough cooperation. IMHO

                        PEACE

                        Non

                        "prometheus" wrote:

                        Hello All,
                        I've been watching the
                        TV coverage of this tragedy
                        for a few days now. It
                        makes one wonder how
                        a mentally deranged
                        young man can do such
                        evil and to such innocent
                        children... face-to-face!

                        However, I found the
                        religious take on all
                        of it to be quite strange.
                        Some of the comments
                        in the prayers of the
                        ministers were odd.

                        One cleric said that
                        it happened in order
                        to have people to
                        question life and to
                        be able to go through
                        their own transformation.
                        Thus, it's a test!

                        One guy mentioned that
                        the children would not
                        have to experience sin.

                        "After passion comes
                        compassion."

                        I'm not sure why people
                        were praying to God and
                        talking to or beseeching
                        God when he didn't offer
                        up any protection to these
                        innocent children. But,
                        are innocent children in
                        other countries protected
                        from harm? It's like how
                        Klemp protects his eckists.

                        The Governor of CT. sounded
                        like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                        when talking about after Winter
                        there will be Spring and growth.

                        There is belief that a grander
                        plan is afoot and that it won't
                        be revealed until you can no
                        longer speak and share and
                        this gives those left hope that
                        the promises will be fulfilled.

                        I'm thinking that Eckists
                        are probably sad, too, but
                        also think that they see it
                        as karma being karma and
                        that there is no death.

                        "What is seen is temporary
                        but what is unseen is eternal."

                        Do clerics merely repeat what
                        we already know or is it merely
                        a pep talk while reminding
                        us of what we are supposed
                        to believe? Or, do they see
                        themselves as the experts
                        who have memorized scripture,
                        dress up in special garments,
                        while we regular people are
                        the ignorant sheep meant to
                        blindly follow?

                        It is interesting to see a
                        commonality of sorts, but
                        individual choice seems to
                        take precedence as it always
                        will.

                        prometheus
                      • iam999freedom
                        Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have influenced you) on the big picture of why evil (bad things do happen to good people)happens
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 18, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its existence.

                          I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will, reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to make a difficult issue acceptable.

                          Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.

                          Freedom




                          What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
                          influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
                          experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
                          link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
                          instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
                          is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
                          ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
                          higher consciousness.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: iam999freedom
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

                          Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                          Newtown, CT. Shootings

                           
                          Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
                          understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
                          comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
                          evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
                          in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:

                          Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                          Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                          exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                          which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                          illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
                          "God"
                          responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                          individual choice.

                          Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                          would seem to indicate otherwise.

                          Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                          looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                          itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                          realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
                          know
                          it.

                          Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                          can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                          But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
                          and
                          the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                          myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                          change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                          So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                          is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

                          And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                          not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                          identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                          identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                          the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                          belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                          believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: iam999freedom
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

                          Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                          Newtown, CT. Shootings

                           
                          Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                          think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
                          world.

                          When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                          knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                          shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                          and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
                          to
                          explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

                          However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
                          play
                          (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                          of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                          indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                          me to thinks:
                          1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                          2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

                          Any thoughts from others?

                          Sincerely,
                          Freedom


                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                          jepfeiffer@ wrote:
                          >
                          > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                          religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                          >  
                          > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                          children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                          trying to deter him from killing those children.
                          >  
                          > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside
                          to
                          save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                          demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
                          >  
                          > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                          day find peace concerning it
                          >
                          > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                          Newtown, CT. Shootings
                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          > I've been watching the
                          > TV coverage of this tragedy
                          > for a few days now. It
                          > makes one wonder how
                          > a mentally deranged
                          > young man can do such
                          > evil and to such innocent
                          > children... face-to-face!
                          >
                          > However, I found the
                          > religious take on all
                          > of it to be quite strange.
                          > Some of the comments
                          > in the prayers of the
                          > ministers were odd.
                          >
                          > One cleric said that
                          > it happened in order
                          > to have people to
                          > question life and to
                          > be able to go through
                          > their own transformation.
                          > Thus, it's a test!
                          >
                          > One guy mentioned that
                          > the children would not
                          > have to experience sin.
                          >
                          > "After passion comes
                          > compassion."
                          >
                          > I'm not sure why people
                          > were praying to God and
                          > talking to or beseeching
                          > God when he didn't offer
                          > up any protection to these
                          > innocent children. But,
                          > are innocent children in
                          > other countries protected
                          > from harm? It's like how
                          > Klemp protects his eckists.
                          >
                          > The Governor of CT. sounded
                          > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                          > when talking about after Winter
                          > there will be Spring and growth.
                          >
                          > There is belief that a grander
                          > plan is afoot and that it won't
                          > be revealed until you can no
                          > longer speak and share and
                          > this gives those left hope that
                          > the promises will be fulfilled.
                          >
                          > I'm thinking that Eckists
                          > are probably sad, too, but
                          > also think that they see it
                          > as karma being karma and
                          > that there is no death.
                          >
                          > "What is seen is temporary
                          > but what is unseen is eternal."
                          >
                          > Do clerics merely repeat what
                          > we already know or is it merely
                          > a pep talk while reminding
                          > us of what we are supposed
                          > to believe? Or, do they see
                          > themselves as the experts
                          > who have memorized scripture,
                          > dress up in special garments,
                          > while we regular people are
                          > the ignorant sheep meant to
                          > blindly follow?
                          >
                          > It is interesting to see a
                          > commonality of sorts, but
                          > individual choice seems to
                          > take precedence as it always
                          > will.
                          >
                          > prometheus
                          >
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          I really don t know for certain, except that with individuals good and evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but with many things
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 19, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
                            evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
                            with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
                            interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
                            M. Graham

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                            Newtown, CT. Shootings

                             
                            Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
                            influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
                            happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
                            crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
                            natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
                            pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
                            existence.

                            I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
                            reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
                            make a difficult issue acceptable.

                            Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
                            speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
                            consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.

                            Freedom

                            What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
                            influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
                            experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
                            link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
                            instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
                            is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
                            ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
                            higher consciousness.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: iam999freedom
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

                            Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                            Newtown, CT. Shootings

                             
                            Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
                            understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
                            comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
                            evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
                            in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:

                            Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                            Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                            exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                            which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                            illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
                            "God"
                            responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                            individual choice.

                            Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                            would seem to indicate otherwise.

                            Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                            looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                            itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                            realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
                            know
                            it.

                            Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                            can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                            But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
                            and
                            the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                            myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                            change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                            So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                            is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

                            And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                            not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                            identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                            identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                            the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                            belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                            believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: iam999freedom
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

                            Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                            Newtown, CT. Shootings

                             
                            Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                            think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
                            world.

                            When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                            knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                            shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                            and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
                            to
                            explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

                            However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
                            play
                            (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                            of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                            indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                            me to thinks:
                            1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                            2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

                            Any thoughts from others?

                            Sincerely,
                            Freedom


                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                            jepfeiffer@ wrote:
                            >
                            > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                            religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                            >  
                            > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                            children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                            trying to deter him from killing those children.
                            >  
                            > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
                            aside
                            to
                            save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                            demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
                            conditions. 
                            >  
                            > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                            day find peace concerning it
                            >
                            > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                            wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                            Newtown, CT. Shootings
                            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello All,
                            > I've been watching the
                            > TV coverage of this tragedy
                            > for a few days now. It
                            > makes one wonder how
                            > a mentally deranged
                            > young man can do such
                            > evil and to such innocent
                            > children... face-to-face!
                            >
                            > However, I found the
                            > religious take on all
                            > of it to be quite strange.
                            > Some of the comments
                            > in the prayers of the
                            > ministers were odd.
                            >
                            > One cleric said that
                            > it happened in order
                            > to have people to
                            > question life and to
                            > be able to go through
                            > their own transformation.
                            > Thus, it's a test!
                            >
                            > One guy mentioned that
                            > the children would not
                            > have to experience sin.
                            >
                            > "After passion comes
                            > compassion."
                            >
                            > I'm not sure why people
                            > were praying to God and
                            > talking to or beseeching
                            > God when he didn't offer
                            > up any protection to these
                            > innocent children. But,
                            > are innocent children in
                            > other countries protected
                            > from harm? It's like how
                            > Klemp protects his eckists.
                            >
                            > The Governor of CT. sounded
                            > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                            > when talking about after Winter
                            > there will be Spring and growth.
                            >
                            > There is belief that a grander
                            > plan is afoot and that it won't
                            > be revealed until you can no
                            > longer speak and share and
                            > this gives those left hope that
                            > the promises will be fulfilled.
                            >
                            > I'm thinking that Eckists
                            > are probably sad, too, but
                            > also think that they see it
                            > as karma being karma and
                            > that there is no death.
                            >
                            > "What is seen is temporary
                            > but what is unseen is eternal."
                            >
                            > Do clerics merely repeat what
                            > we already know or is it merely
                            > a pep talk while reminding
                            > us of what we are supposed
                            > to believe? Or, do they see
                            > themselves as the experts
                            > who have memorized scripture,
                            > dress up in special garments,
                            > while we regular people are
                            > the ignorant sheep meant to
                            > blindly follow?
                            >
                            > It is interesting to see a
                            > commonality of sorts, but
                            > individual choice seems to
                            > take precedence as it always
                            > will.
                            >
                            > prometheus
                            >
                          • etznab18
                            Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.   For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 19, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.

                                "For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of matter. The second question then is: Where did this matter come from? Though scoffed at but a few years ago, it is now known that matter is but 'congealed energy.' This implies a congealing process and a pre-physical source of matter, something like that of the nonphysical electron. Dr I. Langmuir called this source the quantel, a significant term and we shall use it. A more familiar name, however, is etheric energy. But is this the ultimate source of matter? May it not be but one of the many vibratory rates of energy? It is." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 14]

                                "... there has not been a genuine metaphysician in the world for six thousand years. If there had been, he would have seen the fallacies of both science and religion and exposed them." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 16]

                              "Would you call a humanity civilized that has a hundred wars in as many years? that spends trillions of dollars on murder weapons while its schools and hospitals close for want of funds? that lets half its people starve while the other half sickens from overeating? Would you call a humanity enlightened that poisons the air, the water and the soil? that doesn't know mythology from history?, or even what it exists for? This is the animal estate." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 75]

                              "The cunning hands of the priests perverted the entire Bible. It was they who made the redaction after the so-called Exilic period, and by that time they were the sole authority. Their purpose was the creation of a supernatural basis for a religion, hence the perversion of the original truth, than which there is no greater crime. As Dr. Johnson said: 'I know not any crime so great that a man could contrive to commit as poisoning the source of eternal truth.' And according to Kipling, 'Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind.' And the scriptures are the most deadly concoction of them all. They are the prescientific opiates, tranquilizers and placebos." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 82]

                                "If man had divine teachers and divine knowledge in the beginning how did he get like Neanderthal, or even us? This is Devolution." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 102]

                              ***

                              One thing this book talked about was Involution vs. Evolution. I think it possible that Spirit can become involved with Matter, but I can't really say for sure. It sounds rather paradoxical to me.

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                              >
                              > I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
                              > evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
                              > with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
                              > interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
                              > M. Graham
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                              > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
                              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                              > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                              >
                              >  
                              > Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
                              > influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
                              > happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
                              > crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
                              > natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
                              > pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
                              > existence.
                              >
                              > I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
                              > reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
                              > make a difficult issue acceptable.
                              >
                              > Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
                              > speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
                              > consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.
                              >
                              > Freedom
                              >
                              > What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
                              > influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
                              > experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
                              > link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
                              > instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
                              > is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
                              > ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
                              > higher consciousness.
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: iam999freedom
                              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                              >
                              > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
                              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                              > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                              >
                              >  
                              > Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
                              > understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
                              > comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
                              > evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
                              > in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                              >
                              > Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                              > Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                              > exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                              > which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                              > illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
                              > "God"
                              > responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                              > individual choice.
                              >
                              > Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                              > would seem to indicate otherwise.
                              >
                              > Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                              > looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                              > itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                              > realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
                              > know
                              > it.
                              >
                              > Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                              > can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                              > But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
                              > and
                              > the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                              > myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                              > change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                              > So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                              > is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.
                              >
                              > And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                              > not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                              > identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                              > identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                              > the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                              > belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                              > believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: iam999freedom
                              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                              >
                              > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                              > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                              >
                              >  
                              > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                              > think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
                              > world.
                              >
                              > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                              > knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                              > shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                              > and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
                              > to
                              > explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
                              >
                              > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
                              > play
                              > (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                              > of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                              > indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                              > me to thinks:
                              > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                              > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
                              >
                              > Any thoughts from others?
                              >
                              > Sincerely,
                              > Freedom
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                              > jepfeiffer@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                              > religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                              > >  
                              > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                              > children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                              > trying to deter him from killing those children.
                              > >  
                              > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
                              > aside
                              > to
                              > save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                              > demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
                              > conditions. 
                              > >  
                              > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                              > day find peace concerning it
                              > >
                              > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                              > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >  
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hello All,
                              > > I've been watching the
                              > > TV coverage of this tragedy
                              > > for a few days now. It
                              > > makes one wonder how
                              > > a mentally deranged
                              > > young man can do such
                              > > evil and to such innocent
                              > > children... face-to-face!
                              > >
                              > > However, I found the
                              > > religious take on all
                              > > of it to be quite strange.
                              > > Some of the comments
                              > > in the prayers of the
                              > > ministers were odd.
                              > >
                              > > One cleric said that
                              > > it happened in order
                              > > to have people to
                              > > question life and to
                              > > be able to go through
                              > > their own transformation.
                              > > Thus, it's a test!
                              > >
                              > > One guy mentioned that
                              > > the children would not
                              > > have to experience sin.
                              > >
                              > > "After passion comes
                              > > compassion."
                              > >
                              > > I'm not sure why people
                              > > were praying to God and
                              > > talking to or beseeching
                              > > God when he didn't offer
                              > > up any protection to these
                              > > innocent children. But,
                              > > are innocent children in
                              > > other countries protected
                              > > from harm? It's like how
                              > > Klemp protects his eckists.
                              > >
                              > > The Governor of CT. sounded
                              > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                              > > when talking about after Winter
                              > > there will be Spring and growth.
                              > >
                              > > There is belief that a grander
                              > > plan is afoot and that it won't
                              > > be revealed until you can no
                              > > longer speak and share and
                              > > this gives those left hope that
                              > > the promises will be fulfilled.
                              > >
                              > > I'm thinking that Eckists
                              > > are probably sad, too, but
                              > > also think that they see it
                              > > as karma being karma and
                              > > that there is no death.
                              > >
                              > > "What is seen is temporary
                              > > but what is unseen is eternal."
                              > >
                              > > Do clerics merely repeat what
                              > > we already know or is it merely
                              > > a pep talk while reminding
                              > > us of what we are supposed
                              > > to believe? Or, do they see
                              > > themselves as the experts
                              > > who have memorized scripture,
                              > > dress up in special garments,
                              > > while we regular people are
                              > > the ignorant sheep meant to
                              > > blindly follow?
                              > >
                              > > It is interesting to see a
                              > > commonality of sorts, but
                              > > individual choice seems to
                              > > take precedence as it always
                              > > will.
                              > >
                              > > prometheus
                              > >
                              >
                            • iam999freedom
                              Sounds like a another critique of mans fallenness and incapacity to establish a sane world. Have heard of all this before which is why I am so obsessed with
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 19, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Sounds like a another critique of mans' fallenness and incapacity to establish a sane world. Have heard of all this before which is why I am so obsessed with coming to a sense of meaningfullness about it all. Will probably get the book hoping it probes a wide spectrum of other issues which helps to "explain the madness".

                                Btw, thanks to Prometheus for allowing us to explore these issues on this website. I really feel that part of the cult recovery process is to establish a sense of stability and meaning beyond the cult experience.

                                Freedom


                                "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.
                                >
                                >   "For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of matter. The second question then is: Where did this matter come from? Though scoffed at but a few years ago, it is now known that matter is but 'congealed energy.' This implies a congealing process and a pre-physical source of matter, something like that of the nonphysical electron. Dr I. Langmuir called this source the quantel, a significant term and we shall use it. A more familiar name, however, is etheric energy. But is this the ultimate source of matter? May it not be but one of the many vibratory rates of energy? It is." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 14]
                                >
                                >   "... there has not been a genuine metaphysician in the world for six thousand years. If there had been, he would have seen the fallacies of both science and religion and exposed them." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 16]
                                >
                                > "Would you call a humanity civilized that has a hundred wars in as many years? that spends trillions of dollars on murder weapons while its schools and hospitals close for want of funds? that lets half its people starve while the other half sickens from overeating? Would you call a humanity enlightened that poisons the air, the water and the soil? that doesn't know mythology from history?, or even what it exists for? This is the animal estate." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 75]
                                >
                                > "The cunning hands of the priests perverted the entire Bible. It was they who made the redaction after the so-called Exilic period, and by that time they were the sole authority. Their purpose was the creation of a supernatural basis for a religion, hence the perversion of the original truth, than which there is no greater crime. As Dr. Johnson said: 'I know not any crime so great that a man could contrive to commit as poisoning the source of eternal truth.' And according to Kipling, 'Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind.' And the scriptures are the most deadly concoction of them all. They are the prescientific opiates, tranquilizers and placebos." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 82]
                                >
                                >   "If man had divine teachers and divine knowledge in the beginning how did he get like Neanderthal, or even us? This is Devolution." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 102]
                                >
                                > ***
                                >
                                > One thing this book talked about was Involution vs. Evolution. I think it possible that Spirit can become involved with Matter, but I can't really say for sure. It sounds rather paradoxical to me.
                                >
                                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
                                > > evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
                                > > with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
                                > > interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
                                > > M. Graham
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
                                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                                > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                                > >
                                > >  
                                > > Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
                                > > influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
                                > > happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
                                > > crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
                                > > natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
                                > > pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
                                > > existence.
                                > >
                                > > I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
                                > > reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
                                > > make a difficult issue acceptable.
                                > >
                                > > Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
                                > > speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
                                > > consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.
                                > >
                                > > Freedom
                                > >
                                > > What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
                                > > influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
                                > > experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
                                > > link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
                                > > instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
                                > > is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
                                > > ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
                                > > higher consciousness.
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: iam999freedom
                                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                > >
                                > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
                                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                                > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                                > >
                                > >  
                                > > Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
                                > > understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
                                > > comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
                                > > evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
                                > > in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
                                > >
                                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                                > > Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                                > > exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                                > > which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                                > > illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
                                > > "God"
                                > > responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                                > > individual choice.
                                > >
                                > > Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                                > > would seem to indicate otherwise.
                                > >
                                > > Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                                > > looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                                > > itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                                > > realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
                                > > know
                                > > it.
                                > >
                                > > Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                                > > can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                                > > But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
                                > > and
                                > > the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                                > > myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                                > > change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                                > > So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                                > > is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.
                                > >
                                > > And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                                > > not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                                > > identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                                > > identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                                > > the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                                > > belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                                > > believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: iam999freedom
                                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                > >
                                > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                                > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                                > >
                                > >  
                                > > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                                > > think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
                                > > world.
                                > >
                                > > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                                > > knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                                > > shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                                > > and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
                                > > to
                                > > explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
                                > >
                                > > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
                                > > play
                                > > (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                                > > of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                                > > indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                                > > me to thinks:
                                > > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                                > > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
                                > >
                                > > Any thoughts from others?
                                > >
                                > > Sincerely,
                                > > Freedom
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                                > > jepfeiffer@ wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                                > > religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                                > > >  
                                > > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                                > > children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                                > > trying to deter him from killing those children.
                                > > >  
                                > > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
                                > > aside
                                > > to
                                > > save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                                > > demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
                                > > conditions. 
                                > > >  
                                > > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                                > > day find peace concerning it
                                > > >
                                > > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                                > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                                > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                                > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >  
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Hello All,
                                > > > I've been watching the
                                > > > TV coverage of this tragedy
                                > > > for a few days now. It
                                > > > makes one wonder how
                                > > > a mentally deranged
                                > > > young man can do such
                                > > > evil and to such innocent
                                > > > children... face-to-face!
                                > > >
                                > > > However, I found the
                                > > > religious take on all
                                > > > of it to be quite strange.
                                > > > Some of the comments
                                > > > in the prayers of the
                                > > > ministers were odd.
                                > > >
                                > > > One cleric said that
                                > > > it happened in order
                                > > > to have people to
                                > > > question life and to
                                > > > be able to go through
                                > > > their own transformation.
                                > > > Thus, it's a test!
                                > > >
                                > > > One guy mentioned that
                                > > > the children would not
                                > > > have to experience sin.
                                > > >
                                > > > "After passion comes
                                > > > compassion."
                                > > >
                                > > > I'm not sure why people
                                > > > were praying to God and
                                > > > talking to or beseeching
                                > > > God when he didn't offer
                                > > > up any protection to these
                                > > > innocent children. But,
                                > > > are innocent children in
                                > > > other countries protected
                                > > > from harm? It's like how
                                > > > Klemp protects his eckists.
                                > > >
                                > > > The Governor of CT. sounded
                                > > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                                > > > when talking about after Winter
                                > > > there will be Spring and growth.
                                > > >
                                > > > There is belief that a grander
                                > > > plan is afoot and that it won't
                                > > > be revealed until you can no
                                > > > longer speak and share and
                                > > > this gives those left hope that
                                > > > the promises will be fulfilled.
                                > > >
                                > > > I'm thinking that Eckists
                                > > > are probably sad, too, but
                                > > > also think that they see it
                                > > > as karma being karma and
                                > > > that there is no death.
                                > > >
                                > > > "What is seen is temporary
                                > > > but what is unseen is eternal."
                                > > >
                                > > > Do clerics merely repeat what
                                > > > we already know or is it merely
                                > > > a pep talk while reminding
                                > > > us of what we are supposed
                                > > > to believe? Or, do they see
                                > > > themselves as the experts
                                > > > who have memorized scripture,
                                > > > dress up in special garments,
                                > > > while we regular people are
                                > > > the ignorant sheep meant to
                                > > > blindly follow?
                                > > >
                                > > > It is interesting to see a
                                > > > commonality of sorts, but
                                > > > individual choice seems to
                                > > > take precedence as it always
                                > > > will.
                                > > >
                                > > > prometheus
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Non
                                I think humans are still in the early stages of evolving. We are arrogant about our status in the world, imo, and are still learning how to be better and more
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 20, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I think humans are still in the early stages of evolving. We are arrogant about our status in the world, imo, and are still learning how to be better and more compassionate. Within us all is a destructive force and a life/creative force. And we are still very much a part of our animal ancestry.

                                  It is interesting that some of these horrendous acts are being committed by very intelligent people who lack a sense of feeling and caring, and were very shy and sensitive. Gifted children often lack emotional integrity and are very often confused and even in need of Psychotherapy, especially if they come from a family or school that does not know how to handle teaching emotional intelligence. Something to consider.

                                  Non ;)

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Sounds like a another critique of mans' fallenness and incapacity to establish a sane world. Have heard of all this before which is why I am so obsessed with coming to a sense of meaningfullness about it all. Will probably get the book hoping it probes a wide spectrum of other issues which helps to "explain the madness".
                                  >
                                  > Btw, thanks to Prometheus for allowing us to explore these issues on this website. I really feel that part of the cult recovery process is to establish a sense of stability and meaning beyond the cult experience.
                                  >
                                  > Freedom
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "etznab18" <etznab@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Here are some quotes from the book I mentioned earlier.
                                  > >
                                  > >   "For the creation of a thing so vast as a world, Creative Intelligence must have a vast amount of matter. The second question then is: Where did this matter come from? Though scoffed at but a few years ago, it is now known that matter is but 'congealed energy.' This implies a congealing process and a pre-physical source of matter, something like that of the nonphysical electron. Dr I. Langmuir called this source the quantel, a significant term and we shall use it. A more familiar name, however, is etheric energy. But is this the ultimate source of matter? May it not be but one of the many vibratory rates of energy? It is." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 14]
                                  > >
                                  > >   "... there has not been a genuine metaphysician in the world for six thousand years. If there had been, he would have seen the fallacies of both science and religion and exposed them." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 16]
                                  > >
                                  > > "Would you call a humanity civilized that has a hundred wars in as many years? that spends trillions of dollars on murder weapons while its schools and hospitals close for want of funds? that lets half its people starve while the other half sickens from overeating? Would you call a humanity enlightened that poisons the air, the water and the soil? that doesn't know mythology from history?, or even what it exists for? This is the animal estate." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 75]
                                  > >
                                  > > "The cunning hands of the priests perverted the entire Bible. It was they who made the redaction after the so-called Exilic period, and by that time they were the sole authority. Their purpose was the creation of a supernatural basis for a religion, hence the perversion of the original truth, than which there is no greater crime. As Dr. Johnson said: 'I know not any crime so great that a man could contrive to commit as poisoning the source of eternal truth.' And according to Kipling, 'Words are the most powerful drug used by mankind.' And the scriptures are the most deadly concoction of them all. They are the prescientific opiates, tranquilizers and placebos." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 82]
                                  > >
                                  > >   "If man had divine teachers and divine knowledge in the beginning how did he get like Neanderthal, or even us? This is Devolution." [Lloyd M. Graham, Deceptions and Myths Of The Bible, p. 102]
                                  > >
                                  > > ***
                                  > >
                                  > > One thing this book talked about was Involution vs. Evolution. I think it possible that Spirit can become involved with Matter, but I can't really say for sure. It sounds rather paradoxical to me.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I really don't know for certain, except that with individuals good and
                                  > > > evil seems to be a choice. With nature it might be more mechanical, but
                                  > > > with many things influencing the results. A book that had some
                                  > > > interesting ideas to me was Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, by Lloyd
                                  > > > M. Graham
                                  > > >
                                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@>
                                  > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                  > > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 7:28 pm
                                  > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                                  > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                                  > > >
                                  > > >  
                                  > > > Just curious Etznab, what is your take (or writings that have
                                  > > > influenced you) on the "big picture" of why "evil" (bad things do
                                  > > > happen to good people)happens ie., not only the horrific day to day
                                  > > > crap of shootings, rape, murder, drug cartels, etc., but also the
                                  > > > natural disasters such as volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes,
                                  > > > pestulance and disease, etc. that has plagued mankind since its
                                  > > > existence.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I have trouble accepting traditional explanations of free will,
                                  > > > reincarnation and karma or sin, etc. They seem like rationalizations to
                                  > > > make a difficult issue acceptable.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Would like to hear your point of view. Perhaps it would be just
                                  > > > speculation but it will give me something to bounce around in my
                                  > > > consciousness and perhaps resonate within me.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Freedom
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What I wrote was not entirely based on my own experience. I was
                                  > > > influenced also by writings that seemed to agree with my own
                                  > > > experiences, and a website I visited yesterday (wish I had saved the
                                  > > > link). In any case, it helps me to consider alternate explanations
                                  > > > instead of feeling limited by eternal subjugation to a hierarchy which
                                  > > > is not going to do any spiritual unfolding for me ... and so cannot
                                  > > > ultimately determine, or define another person's relationship with any
                                  > > > higher consciousness.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > From: iam999freedom
                                  > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm
                                  > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                                  > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                                  > > >
                                  > > >  
                                  > > > Hi Etznab, thanks for your interesting remarks. I believe I can
                                  > > > understand what you are saying in so much as I have interpreted your
                                  > > > comments as I think you intended. If so, how is life enhanced or
                                  > > > evolved by playing this game of "hide and go seek"?ie.,individualizing
                                  > > > in the physical form while beyond space and time being One(God).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                                  > > > Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                                  > > > exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                                  > > > which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                                  > > > illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than
                                  > > > "God"
                                  > > > responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                                  > > > individual choice.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                                  > > > would seem to indicate otherwise.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                                  > > > looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                                  > > > itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                                  > > > realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we
                                  > > > know
                                  > > > it.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                                  > > > can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                                  > > > But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution
                                  > > > and
                                  > > > the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                                  > > > myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                                  > > > change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                                  > > > So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                                  > > > is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                                  > > > not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                                  > > > identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                                  > > > identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                                  > > > the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                                  > > > belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                                  > > > believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > From: iam999freedom
                                  > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                                  > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                                  > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                                  > > >
                                  > > >  
                                  > > > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                                  > > > think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this
                                  > > > world.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                                  > > > knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                                  > > > shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                                  > > > and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used
                                  > > > to
                                  > > > explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the
                                  > > > play
                                  > > > (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                                  > > > of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                                  > > > indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                                  > > > me to thinks:
                                  > > > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                                  > > > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Any thoughts from others?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Sincerely,
                                  > > > Freedom
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                                  > > > jepfeiffer@ wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                                  > > > religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                                  > > > >  
                                  > > > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                                  > > > children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                                  > > > trying to deter him from killing those children.
                                  > > > >  
                                  > > > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety
                                  > > > aside
                                  > > > to
                                  > > > save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                                  > > > demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying
                                  > > > conditions. 
                                  > > > >  
                                  > > > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                                  > > > day find peace concerning it
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > From: prometheus_973 prometheus_973@
                                  > > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                                  > > > Newtown, CT. Shootings
                                  > > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >  
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Hello All,
                                  > > > > I've been watching the
                                  > > > > TV coverage of this tragedy
                                  > > > > for a few days now. It
                                  > > > > makes one wonder how
                                  > > > > a mentally deranged
                                  > > > > young man can do such
                                  > > > > evil and to such innocent
                                  > > > > children... face-to-face!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > However, I found the
                                  > > > > religious take on all
                                  > > > > of it to be quite strange.
                                  > > > > Some of the comments
                                  > > > > in the prayers of the
                                  > > > > ministers were odd.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > One cleric said that
                                  > > > > it happened in order
                                  > > > > to have people to
                                  > > > > question life and to
                                  > > > > be able to go through
                                  > > > > their own transformation.
                                  > > > > Thus, it's a test!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > One guy mentioned that
                                  > > > > the children would not
                                  > > > > have to experience sin.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > "After passion comes
                                  > > > > compassion."
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I'm not sure why people
                                  > > > > were praying to God and
                                  > > > > talking to or beseeching
                                  > > > > God when he didn't offer
                                  > > > > up any protection to these
                                  > > > > innocent children. But,
                                  > > > > are innocent children in
                                  > > > > other countries protected
                                  > > > > from harm? It's like how
                                  > > > > Klemp protects his eckists.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The Governor of CT. sounded
                                  > > > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                                  > > > > when talking about after Winter
                                  > > > > there will be Spring and growth.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > There is belief that a grander
                                  > > > > plan is afoot and that it won't
                                  > > > > be revealed until you can no
                                  > > > > longer speak and share and
                                  > > > > this gives those left hope that
                                  > > > > the promises will be fulfilled.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I'm thinking that Eckists
                                  > > > > are probably sad, too, but
                                  > > > > also think that they see it
                                  > > > > as karma being karma and
                                  > > > > that there is no death.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > "What is seen is temporary
                                  > > > > but what is unseen is eternal."
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Do clerics merely repeat what
                                  > > > > we already know or is it merely
                                  > > > > a pep talk while reminding
                                  > > > > us of what we are supposed
                                  > > > > to believe? Or, do they see
                                  > > > > themselves as the experts
                                  > > > > who have memorized scripture,
                                  > > > > dress up in special garments,
                                  > > > > while we regular people are
                                  > > > > the ignorant sheep meant to
                                  > > > > blindly follow?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > It is interesting to see a
                                  > > > > commonality of sorts, but
                                  > > > > individual choice seems to
                                  > > > > take precedence as it always
                                  > > > > will.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > prometheus
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Janice Pfeiffer
                                  Wow etznab, that s really deep.  Lots to think about.  ... From: etznab@aol.com Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It s So Sad
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Dec 22, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Wow etznab, that's really deep.  Lots to think about. 

                                    --- On Tue, 12/18/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                                    From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Tuesday, December 18, 2012, 1:51 AM

                                     
                                    Here's an other thought. Maybe there is no distinction between God and
                                    Soul. That there are no Souls and no Gods. And that everything that
                                    exists, all individuals, are inherently nothing but the same ONE thing
                                    which, for some, is something they sacrifice by living under the
                                    illusion of being something less. In this case it is no less than "God"
                                    responsible for all good things and all evil things as a matter of
                                    individual choice.

                                    Is it really beyond the ONE existent reality to "limit itself"? Nature
                                    would seem to indicate otherwise.

                                    Yes this sounds like far out talk, but that is only the result of
                                    looking at it a particular way. What I am saying is that God can limit
                                    itself and not limit itself at the same time, because God - the true
                                    realization of it - exists as part of a realm devoid of time as we know
                                    it.

                                    Take human thoughts as an example of what I'm trying to get at. People
                                    can imagine limitation and even imagine being killed and being reborn.
                                    But when those are only thoughts it doesn't change the constitution and
                                    the makeup of the person having those thoughts. Like, I could imagine
                                    myself as an ant but that would only be an imagination and would not
                                    change the fact that I am human just having a thought of being an ant.
                                    So what is to say that God can't also imagine, or think, and in no way
                                    is God, or the ONE, changed by having thoughts.

                                    And then again, what is to say that people (in the greater scheme) are
                                    not really God identifying with creation to such an extent as to
                                    identify with the creation as opposed to the creator? After
                                    identification with creation is severed upon physical death, perhaps
                                    the realization of God increases and there might be something to the
                                    belief in various inner bodies and inner planes. If the individual
                                    believes and identifies with the creations there, as here.

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: iam999freedom <iam999freedom@...>
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                    <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: It's So Sad About the
                                    Newtown, CT. Shootings

                                     
                                    Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I
                                    think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this world.

                                    When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously
                                    knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown
                                    shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on
                                    and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used to
                                    explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.

                                    However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the play
                                    (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one
                                    of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least
                                    indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads
                                    me to thinks:
                                    1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                                    2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.

                                    Any thoughts from others?

                                    Sincerely,
                                    Freedom

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                                    &lt;jepfeiffer@...&gt; wrote:
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think
                                    religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                                    &gt;  
                                    &gt; There were teachers and school officials who died shielding
                                    children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed
                                    trying to deter him from killing those children.
                                    &gt;  
                                    &gt; To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside to
                                    save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could
                                    demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
                                    &gt;  
                                    &gt; Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one
                                    day find peace concerning it
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@...&gt;
                                    wrote:
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; From: prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_973@...&gt;
                                    &gt; Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the
                                    Newtown, CT. Shootings
                                    &gt; To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    &gt; Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt;  
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; Hello All,
                                    &gt; I've been watching the
                                    &gt; TV coverage of this tragedy
                                    &gt; for a few days now. It
                                    &gt; makes one wonder how
                                    &gt; a mentally deranged
                                    &gt; young man can do such
                                    &gt; evil and to such innocent
                                    &gt; children... face-to-face!
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; However, I found the
                                    &gt; religious take on all
                                    &gt; of it to be quite strange.
                                    &gt; Some of the comments
                                    &gt; in the prayers of the
                                    &gt; ministers were odd.
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; One cleric said that
                                    &gt; it happened in order
                                    &gt; to have people to
                                    &gt; question life and to
                                    &gt; be able to go through
                                    &gt; their own transformation.
                                    &gt; Thus, it's a test!
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; One guy mentioned that
                                    &gt; the children would not
                                    &gt; have to experience sin.
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; "After passion comes
                                    &gt; compassion."
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; I'm not sure why people
                                    &gt; were praying to God and
                                    &gt; talking to or beseeching
                                    &gt; God when he didn't offer
                                    &gt; up any protection to these
                                    &gt; innocent children. But,
                                    &gt; are innocent children in
                                    &gt; other countries protected
                                    &gt; from harm? It's like how
                                    &gt; Klemp protects his eckists.
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; The Governor of CT. sounded
                                    &gt; like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                                    &gt; when talking about after Winter
                                    &gt; there will be Spring and growth.
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; There is belief that a grander
                                    &gt; plan is afoot and that it won't
                                    &gt; be revealed until you can no
                                    &gt; longer speak and share and
                                    &gt; this gives those left hope that
                                    &gt; the promises will be fulfilled.
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; I'm thinking that Eckists
                                    &gt; are probably sad, too, but
                                    &gt; also think that they see it
                                    &gt; as karma being karma and
                                    &gt; that there is no death.
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; "What is seen is temporary
                                    &gt; but what is unseen is eternal."
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; Do clerics merely repeat what
                                    &gt; we already know or is it merely
                                    &gt; a pep talk while reminding
                                    &gt; us of what we are supposed
                                    &gt; to believe? Or, do they see
                                    &gt; themselves as the experts
                                    &gt; who have memorized scripture,
                                    &gt; dress up in special garments,
                                    &gt; while we regular people are
                                    &gt; the ignorant sheep meant to
                                    &gt; blindly follow?
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; It is interesting to see a
                                    &gt; commonality of sorts, but
                                    &gt; individual choice seems to
                                    &gt; take precedence as it always
                                    &gt; will.
                                    &gt;
                                    &gt; prometheus
                                    &gt;

                                  • harrisonferrel
                                    My thoughts on this? Much time is spent with suppositions. Does god exist? Most likely not. There is no evidence except what people rationalize is evidence. I
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Apr 4, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      My thoughts on this?

                                      Much time is spent with suppositions. Does god exist? Most likely not. There is no evidence except what people rationalize is evidence. I agree about the lack of logic and posit: If god is all knowing all seeing and all loving, then there is a huge problem. No evil or suffering would take place. Ever. I tend to agree with Christopher Hitchens that God is Not Great. God would have to be a psychopath to allow what goes on here. The only explanations as to why are merely rationalizations in fear of letting go of this primitive idea that has never been substantiated.

                                      I have no belief in god, karma, spirit, etc. And it feels good. I remain open minded but thus far cannot commit to ideas that are without basis. How does this make me feel? Free. God was invented by man. If you understand history you will see that the idea of god was an evolution and not an epiphany. It's a pretty weak and immature worldview that leads one to think that there is a force that guides everything and has some sort of intelligence. To paraphrase Sam Harris, Just because we don't know what the answer is does not mean that there is no answer. I would rather admit that I am ignorant or uninformed than to say there is a god or supernatural world.

                                      And, yes, I've had plenty of "experiences," but now I understand what they were and I cannot say they were anything otherworldly.


                                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom" <iam999freedom@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi, there is an issue that keeps cropping up and troubles me when I think of the Newton shootings and all the other tragedies in this world.
                                      >
                                      > When God,(if there is such a being) created this world, It obviously knew of the negative choices that people would make like the Newtown shootings, murder, rape, incest, child prostitution, the list goes on and on. Human free choice and perhaps subsequent karma has been used to explain away God's responsibilty for these hideous events.
                                      >
                                      > However, if the director of a play (God) creates characters in the play (humans) that It knows will make negative choices (because that's one of the main ways a human learns) does that not make God at least indirectly responsible for these tragedies? Just a thought that leads me to thinks:
                                      > 1. Maybe God is not as Loving as we are lead to believe.
                                      > 2. I have trouble believing in or wanting to follow such a Being.
                                      >
                                      > Any thoughts from others?
                                      >
                                      > Sincerely,
                                      > Freedom
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Well I guess I can say one positive thing and I would think religious leaders would focus on that angle.
                                      > >  
                                      > > There were teachers and school officials who died shielding children from the gunman and some even met him face to face unarmed trying to deter him from killing those children.
                                      > >  
                                      > > To me that is supreme love.  They put their own safety aside to save the lives of the more frail little children.  No one could demonstrate more love than they in those terrifying conditions. 
                                      > >  
                                      > > Bless all those who has to face this tragedy and may they all one day find peace concerning it
                                      > >
                                      > > --- On Mon, 12/17/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                                      > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] It's So Sad About the Newtown, CT. Shootings
                                      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Date: Monday, December 17, 2012, 1:54 AM
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >  
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello All,
                                      > > I've been watching the
                                      > > TV coverage of this tragedy
                                      > > for a few days now. It
                                      > > makes one wonder how
                                      > > a mentally deranged
                                      > > young man can do such
                                      > > evil and to such innocent
                                      > > children... face-to-face!
                                      > >
                                      > > However, I found the
                                      > > religious take on all
                                      > > of it to be quite strange.
                                      > > Some of the comments
                                      > > in the prayers of the
                                      > > ministers were odd.
                                      > >
                                      > > One cleric said that
                                      > > it happened in order
                                      > > to have people to
                                      > > question life and to
                                      > > be able to go through
                                      > > their own transformation.
                                      > > Thus, it's a test!
                                      > >
                                      > > One guy mentioned that
                                      > > the children would not
                                      > > have to experience sin.
                                      > >
                                      > > "After passion comes
                                      > > compassion."
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm not sure why people
                                      > > were praying to God and
                                      > > talking to or beseeching
                                      > > God when he didn't offer
                                      > > up any protection to these
                                      > > innocent children. But,
                                      > > are innocent children in
                                      > > other countries protected
                                      > > from harm? It's like how
                                      > > Klemp protects his eckists.
                                      > >
                                      > > The Governor of CT. sounded
                                      > > like Peter Sellers in "Being There"
                                      > > when talking about after Winter
                                      > > there will be Spring and growth.
                                      > >
                                      > > There is belief that a grander
                                      > > plan is afoot and that it won't
                                      > > be revealed until you can no
                                      > > longer speak and share and
                                      > > this gives those left hope that
                                      > > the promises will be fulfilled.
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm thinking that Eckists
                                      > > are probably sad, too, but
                                      > > also think that they see it
                                      > > as karma being karma and
                                      > > that there is no death.
                                      > >
                                      > > "What is seen is temporary
                                      > > but what is unseen is eternal."
                                      > >
                                      > > Do clerics merely repeat what
                                      > > we already know or is it merely
                                      > > a pep talk while reminding
                                      > > us of what we are supposed
                                      > > to believe? Or, do they see
                                      > > themselves as the experts
                                      > > who have memorized scripture,
                                      > > dress up in special garments,
                                      > > while we regular people are
                                      > > the ignorant sheep meant to
                                      > > blindly follow?
                                      > >
                                      > > It is interesting to see a
                                      > > commonality of sorts, but
                                      > > individual choice seems to
                                      > > take precedence as it always
                                      > > will.
                                      > >
                                      > > prometheus
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.