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Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Janice, Non and All, Thank you for the kind words and understanding. It got me to thinking about the basis for the whole EK initiation eligibility
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
      Hello Janice, Non and All,
      Thank you for the kind
      words and understanding.
      It got me to thinking about
      the basis for the whole EK
      initiation eligibility screening.

      I think that we've all heard
      about the importance of
      keeping the EK Teachings
      "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
      must be current on procedures,
      and guidelines which will,
      also, ensure that they are
      able to regurgitate the
      approved propaganda.
      The initiation eligibility
      screenings are to sort out
      those who still need more
      training or are ready to
      advance to the next stage
      and take on more responsibilities
      with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
      Sales Teams.

      Plus, the initiation screenings
      ensure that Klemp will have
      people who are willing to
      participate in the promotion
      of the organization. It has
      nothing to do with one's
      spiritual growth. But, sincerity
      and believability goes a
      long way in convincing others.
      However, one can't be too
      deluded. One needs to be
      believable and this is why
      the faithful are the ones most
      shocked when they can finally
      open their minds to hear
      the truth.

      Maybe most of the heavy
      handed methods, lack of
      empathy and compassion,
      are rationalizations where
      the RESAs are thinking
      they are toughening up
      and strengthening Soul
      while, also, protecting
      the Mahanta, supporting
      his "Mission," and keeping
      the EK Teachings "pure"
      and unchangeable over
      time.

      When taking a second look;
      HK has his RESAs confused.
      How does Klemp continue
      to promote "change" and
      is always updating things
      while keeping the "original"
      EK Teachings by Twitchell
      "pure?" The truth is that,
      as LEM, Klemp has the
      authority to Change and
      revisit all EK Dogma and
      "update" and revise it
      with his own spin.

      Therefore, only the current
      EK teachings (Guidelines
      included) are "pure" according
      to what Klemp is suggesting.
      Except, the reason why HK
      has chosen not to reprint
      most of Twitchell's books
      is because they are highly
      plagiarized versus being
      "current" with today's higher
      consciousness.

      The foundation of Eckankar
      is built upon a con and a
      hoax and is not even copied
      from the highest "truths"
      of other religions since these
      religions are flawed as well.
      Twitchell's books are more
      evidence to prove the case
      and to show that he was
      simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
      and a narcissistic wannabe.

      Prometheus


      Prometheus

      Janice wrote:
      I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

      At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

      Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

      Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

      Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

      I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

      By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

      Be at peace

      Janice


      Non ekchains:

      Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

      Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

      http://www.lucifereffect.com/

      Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

      In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

      I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

      Blessings

      Non ;)


      prometheus wrote:

      Hello Janice,
      Most H.I.s have no idea
      how the EK Initiation
      process works. It's sad
      because there are some
      really nice and gentile
      chelas who have been
      passed over on the 5th.
      Some died as 4ths when
      they should have had
      some happiness, peace
      of mind, and contentment
      by receiving that 5th.
      I've know several eckists
      where this has happened.
      It was no big deal to give
      them their 5th initiation,
      but some RESAs are mean-
      spirited, lack empathy,
      and are petty. They've
      gotten caught up in HK's
      game. All Eckists should
      get the 5th after no more
      than 20 years, especially,
      when they participate
      and are kept current on
      their membership. However,
      that's not the way the
      power trip is played by
      some RESAs.

      I hate to admit this but
      I helped the RESA when
      asked about people. I
      was quizzed about those
      up for, usually, the 5th
      and 6th initiation. I was
      asked about what the EKist
      said, how they acted and
      conducted themselves
      and any unusual things
      that I noticed about
      their behavior or performance.
      And then I was asked for
      my opinion. Unfortunately
      my replies, I know, had
      some initiations delayed
      for these people and I
      regret that I got caught
      up in this petty mind game.
      Some of these people are
      still H.I.s and have no idea
      why they had to wait so
      long for their 5th or 6th.
      Many probably think that
      the Mahanta was testing
      them! LOL! On the other
      hand maybe some of them,
      by now, have been asked
      to evaluate people too.
      I wonder if they put two
      and two together and
      figured it out.

      Why, though, should
      Klemp have a system
      for initiations that judges
      and punishes Eckists
      based upon our evaluations?
      Where's that Inner Knowingness
      of the Mahanta?

      Besides, a 5th is no big
      deal, and it's not like one
      becomes a cleric automatically
      with a 5th. Really, being
      an 5th is no more being
      an official representative
      of Eckankar than is a 4th.

      Yes, most Eckists have
      no idea that a computer
      generated eligibility list
      is sent to the RESA by the
      ESC and that phone calls
      are made asking questions
      where subjective answers
      are given and that the RESA
      uses these to either approve
      and give a recommendation
      for initiation or doesn't.
      However, I will say that
      any "No" has to have an
      valid reason. The ESC
      usually follows the RESAs'
      recommendations.

      BTW- Janice, I think that
      your RESA approved of
      your initiation because
      he felt guilty for having
      yelled at you, plus, you
      could have reported him
      to the ESC. Maybe the
      initiation approval was
      meant to appease you?

      Prometheus

      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

      Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
      teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
      person?

      That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
      was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
      on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
      crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
      that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
      was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
      totally useless.

      In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
      about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

      I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
      of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
      didn't use his name at all.

      The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
      seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
      had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
      then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
      asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
      times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
      along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
      his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
      point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
      time and hung up.

      It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
      up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
      called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
      appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
      paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
      performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
      that was part of it.

      When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
      thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
      there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
      was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
      the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
      insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
      was enough.

      Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
      true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
      I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

      I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
      opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
      like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

      prometheus wrote:

      Hello Janice,
      Thanks for the interesting
      reply and the sharing of
      insights and experiences.
      I really really enjoyed it
      all.

      The reason why someone
      knew you received your
      pink slip is because the
      RESA gets an initiation
      eligibility list where he/
      she will mark yea/nay
      for an initiation. When
      the yea is checked the
      ESC (membership services)
      will more than likely issue
      the pink slip for the initiation.
      Or, the file has been red
      flagged for some reason.
      Klemp, I'm told, will put
      a temporary hold on higher
      initiations. Maybe it's due
      to pending requirements
      for training/retraining.
      The ESC will notify the
      RESA when the pink slip
      is sent.

      Most Eckists don't know
      how the initiation process
      works.

      The RESA has a membership
      list generated by the ESC
      for all those EKists in their
      region and it will show
      initiation level, one's status
      and date of membership
      among other info. If a
      new person sends in a
      membership form to the
      ESC from anywhere in
      the RESA's region the RESA
      will be notified of who
      they are and their mailing
      address.

      I was glad Ford Johnson
      wrote his book and that
      I was told about it by an
      Eckist who is still an H.I.
      The Irony is that he was
      doing Public Information
      and was quite the gossip.

      I always was the skeptic
      and had trouble with a lot
      of what I saw and experienced
      around H.I.s.

      When I was a lower initiate
      I knew that many H.I.s weren't
      spiritual nor anywhere close
      to being enlightened. There
      were too many contradictions,
      restrictions, and hypocrisy.
      Once you're an EK member
      the next step is to get you
      to become a volunteer on
      HK's sales team.

      I always wondered how
      was there an "inner" connection
      to the Mahanta if H.I.s
      were still smoking and
      drinking alcohol, but
      getting promoted with
      more initiations? I knew
      of two 5ths who smoked
      and drank and got pink
      slips for the 6th. It's clear
      that Klemp knows nothing
      unless informed via phone
      or snailmail... email now!

      Yes, Janice, we were the
      ones awakened to the Truth
      while all of those "Higher"
      (pretend) Initiates are still
      sleeping. Many H.I.s have
      become very skilled at
      regurgitating the PR and
      at facilitating and public
      speaking. But, H.I.s have
      no idea of what it's like
      to be Free thinkers and
      free of religion and of the
      EK Hierarchy. They think
      that their "spiritual experiences"
      are unique when these
      are common and similar
      experiences that all religious
      seekers have had... even
      Christians!

      Yes, we needed Eckankar
      in order to fill a void and
      to learn some important
      lessons about ourselves
      and about religion in general.

      IMO, Those who left
      Eckankar but still have
      a need for religion, haven't
      really learned that they
      will never find answers
      via a group consciousness
      or via a guru/master.
      True, it is nice to know
      people of like mind and
      to share things, but this
      can be a bad thing as well
      if we become too attached
      or lazy and want to play
      follow the leader again.

      It all comes down to one's
      private and personal experiences
      and inner revelations with
      oneSelf and with whatever
      catalyst of "divine" creation.

      Prometheus

      Janice wrote:
      I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
      it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
      people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
      The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
      new people.

      Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
      little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
      to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
      you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
      you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
      to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
      initiations.

      I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
      contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
      questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
      he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
      not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

      Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
      me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
      about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
      even.

      How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
      supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
      about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
      getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
      seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
      games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
      opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
      Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
      tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
      become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

      That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
      for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
      eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
      instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
      the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
      Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
      lucky that I got out when I did.

      The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
      lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
      they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
      in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
      good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
      that point the lies.

      Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
      like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
      not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
      define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
      individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
      responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
      after seeing where blind obedience leads.

      I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
      individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
      the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
      in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
      this.

      I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
      maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
      spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
      all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
      the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
      own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
      quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

      I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
      mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
      there and I did walk away of my own free will.

      Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
      they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
      spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
      slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
      getting out could lead to better things.

      Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
      reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
      your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
      to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
      serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
      the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
      are.

      Blessings to all of you.
    • Janice Pfeiffer
      Prometheus,   The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.   As a young person, I blamed my parents
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 17, 2012
        Prometheus,
         
        The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.
         
        As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up.  I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point.  I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all. 
         
        Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time.  There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of.  They gave what they could.  They were not capable of more.
         
        I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes.  But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time. 
         
        It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude.  If you don't know better, you can't do better.
         
        If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.
         
        We all know that's not possible.  
         
        I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life.  It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are. 
         
        You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect.  If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.
         
        You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.
         
        You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.
         
        Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all  positions you may have held.
         
        You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.
         
        How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?
         
        You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.
         
        You changed course. 
         
        A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.
         
        In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.
         
        I do have a question.  You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations.  What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development?  I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons.  It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org.  Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone.  Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar?  Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money.  Is that it?
         
        I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in.  I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time.  I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now.  If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed.  There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff. 
         
        Thank you Prometheus
         


        --- On Sun, 12/16/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 6:44 PM

         
        Hello Janice, Non and All,
        Thank you for the kind
        words and understanding.
        It got me to thinking about
        the basis for the whole EK
        initiation eligibility screening.

        I think that we've all heard
        about the importance of
        keeping the EK Teachings
        "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
        must be current on procedures,
        and guidelines which will,
        also, ensure that they are
        able to regurgitate the
        approved propaganda.
        The initiation eligibility
        screenings are to sort out
        those who still need more
        training or are ready to
        advance to the next stage
        and take on more responsibilities
        with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
        Sales Teams.

        Plus, the initiation screenings
        ensure that Klemp will have
        people who are willing to
        participate in the promotion
        of the organization. It has
        nothing to do with one's
        spiritual growth. But, sincerity
        and believability goes a
        long way in convincing others.
        However, one can't be too
        deluded. One needs to be
        believable and this is why
        the faithful are the ones most
        shocked when they can finally
        open their minds to hear
        the truth.

        Maybe most of the heavy
        handed methods, lack of
        empathy and compassion,
        are rationalizations where
        the RESAs are thinking
        they are toughening up
        and strengthening Soul
        while, also, protecting
        the Mahanta, supporting
        his "Mission," and keeping
        the EK Teachings "pure"
        and unchangeable over
        time.

        When taking a second look;
        HK has his RESAs confused.
        How does Klemp continue
        to promote "change" and
        is always updating things
        while keeping the "original"
        EK Teachings by Twitchell
        "pure?" The truth is that,
        as LEM, Klemp has the
        authority to Change and
        revisit all EK Dogma and
        "update" and revise it
        with his own spin.

        Therefore, only the current
        EK teachings (Guidelines
        included) are "pure" according
        to what Klemp is suggesting.
        Except, the reason why HK
        has chosen not to reprint
        most of Twitchell's books
        is because they are highly
        plagiarized versus being
        "current" with today's higher
        consciousness.

        The foundation of Eckankar
        is built upon a con and a
        hoax and is not even copied
        from the highest "truths"
        of other religions since these
        religions are flawed as well.
        Twitchell's books are more
        evidence to prove the case
        and to show that he was
        simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
        and a narcissistic wannabe.

        Prometheus

        Prometheus

        Janice wrote:
        I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

        At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

        Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

        Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

        Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

        I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

        By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

        Be at peace

        Janice


        Non ekchains:

        Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

        Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

        http://www.lucifereffect.com/

        Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

        In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

        I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

        Blessings

        Non ;)

        prometheus wrote:

        Hello Janice,
        Most H.I.s have no idea
        how the EK Initiation
        process works. It's sad
        because there are some
        really nice and gentile
        chelas who have been
        passed over on the 5th.
        Some died as 4ths when
        they should have had
        some happiness, peace
        of mind, and contentment
        by receiving that 5th.
        I've know several eckists
        where this has happened.
        It was no big deal to give
        them their 5th initiation,
        but some RESAs are mean-
        spirited, lack empathy,
        and are petty. They've
        gotten caught up in HK's
        game. All Eckists should
        get the 5th after no more
        than 20 years, especially,
        when they participate
        and are kept current on
        their membership. However,
        that's not the way the
        power trip is played by
        some RESAs.

        I hate to admit this but
        I helped the RESA when
        asked about people. I
        was quizzed about those
        up for, usually, the 5th
        and 6th initiation. I was
        asked about what the EKist
        said, how they acted and
        conducted themselves
        and any unusual things
        that I noticed about
        their behavior or performance.
        And then I was asked for
        my opinion. Unfortunately
        my replies, I know, had
        some initiations delayed
        for these people and I
        regret that I got caught
        up in this petty mind game.
        Some of these people are
        still H.I.s and have no idea
        why they had to wait so
        long for their 5th or 6th.
        Many probably think that
        the Mahanta was testing
        them! LOL! On the other
        hand maybe some of them,
        by now, have been asked
        to evaluate people too.
        I wonder if they put two
        and two together and
        figured it out.

        Why, though, should
        Klemp have a system
        for initiations that judges
        and punishes Eckists
        based upon our evaluations?
        Where's that Inner Knowingness
        of the Mahanta?

        Besides, a 5th is no big
        deal, and it's not like one
        becomes a cleric automatically
        with a 5th. Really, being
        an 5th is no more being
        an official representative
        of Eckankar than is a 4th.

        Yes, most Eckists have
        no idea that a computer
        generated eligibility list
        is sent to the RESA by the
        ESC and that phone calls
        are made asking questions
        where subjective answers
        are given and that the RESA
        uses these to either approve
        and give a recommendation
        for initiation or doesn't.
        However, I will say that
        any "No" has to have an
        valid reason. The ESC
        usually follows the RESAs'
        recommendations.

        BTW- Janice, I think that
        your RESA approved of
        your initiation because
        he felt guilty for having
        yelled at you, plus, you
        could have reported him
        to the ESC. Maybe the
        initiation approval was
        meant to appease you?

        Prometheus

        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

        Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
        teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
        person?

        That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
        was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
        on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
        crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
        that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
        was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
        totally useless.

        In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
        about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

        I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
        of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
        didn't use his name at all.

        The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
        seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
        had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
        then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
        asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
        times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
        along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
        his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
        point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
        time and hung up.

        It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
        up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
        called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
        appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
        paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
        performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
        that was part of it.

        When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
        thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
        there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
        was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
        the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
        insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
        was enough.

        Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
        true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
        I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

        I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
        opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
        like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

        prometheus wrote:

        Hello Janice,
        Thanks for the interesting
        reply and the sharing of
        insights and experiences.
        I really really enjoyed it
        all.

        The reason why someone
        knew you received your
        pink slip is because the
        RESA gets an initiation
        eligibility list where he/
        she will mark yea/nay
        for an initiation. When
        the yea is checked the
        ESC (membership services)
        will more than likely issue
        the pink slip for the initiation.
        Or, the file has been red
        flagged for some reason.
        Klemp, I'm told, will put
        a temporary hold on higher
        initiations. Maybe it's due
        to pending requirements
        for training/retraining.
        The ESC will notify the
        RESA when the pink slip
        is sent.

        Most Eckists don't know
        how the initiation process
        works.

        The RESA has a membership
        list generated by the ESC
        for all those EKists in their
        region and it will show
        initiation level, one's status
        and date of membership
        among other info. If a
        new person sends in a
        membership form to the
        ESC from anywhere in
        the RESA's region the RESA
        will be notified of who
        they are and their mailing
        address.

        I was glad Ford Johnson
        wrote his book and that
        I was told about it by an
        Eckist who is still an H.I.
        The Irony is that he was
        doing Public Information
        and was quite the gossip.

        I always was the skeptic
        and had trouble with a lot
        of what I saw and experienced
        around H.I.s.

        When I was a lower initiate
        I knew that many H.I.s weren't
        spiritual nor anywhere close
        to being enlightened. There
        were too many contradictions,
        restrictions, and hypocrisy.
        Once you're an EK member
        the next step is to get you
        to become a volunteer on
        HK's sales team.

        I always wondered how
        was there an "inner" connection
        to the Mahanta if H.I.s
        were still smoking and
        drinking alcohol, but
        getting promoted with
        more initiations? I knew
        of two 5ths who smoked
        and drank and got pink
        slips for the 6th. It's clear
        that Klemp knows nothing
        unless informed via phone
        or snailmail... email now!

        Yes, Janice, we were the
        ones awakened to the Truth
        while all of those "Higher"
        (pretend) Initiates are still
        sleeping. Many H.I.s have
        become very skilled at
        regurgitating the PR and
        at facilitating and public
        speaking. But, H.I.s have
        no idea of what it's like
        to be Free thinkers and
        free of religion and of the
        EK Hierarchy. They think
        that their "spiritual experiences"
        are unique when these
        are common and similar
        experiences that all religious
        seekers have had... even
        Christians!

        Yes, we needed Eckankar
        in order to fill a void and
        to learn some important
        lessons about ourselves
        and about religion in general.

        IMO, Those who left
        Eckankar but still have
        a need for religion, haven't
        really learned that they
        will never find answers
        via a group consciousness
        or via a guru/master.
        True, it is nice to know
        people of like mind and
        to share things, but this
        can be a bad thing as well
        if we become too attached
        or lazy and want to play
        follow the leader again.

        It all comes down to one's
        private and personal experiences
        and inner revelations with
        oneSelf and with whatever
        catalyst of "divine" creation.

        Prometheus

        Janice wrote:
        I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
        it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
        people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
        The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
        new people.

        Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
        little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
        to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
        you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
        you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
        to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
        initiations.

        I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
        contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
        questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
        he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
        not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

        Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
        me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
        about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
        even.

        How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
        supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
        about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
        getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
        seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
        games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
        opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
        Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
        tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
        become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

        That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
        for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
        eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
        instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
        the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
        Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
        lucky that I got out when I did.

        The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
        lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
        they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
        in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
        good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
        that point the lies.

        Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
        like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
        not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
        define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
        individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
        responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
        after seeing where blind obedience leads.

        I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
        individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
        the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
        in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
        this.

        I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
        maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
        spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
        all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
        the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
        own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
        quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

        I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
        mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
        there and I did walk away of my own free will.

        Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
        they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
        spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
        slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
        getting out could lead to better things.

        Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
        reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
        your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
        to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
        serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
        the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
        are.

        Blessings to all of you.

      • prometheus_973
        Hello Janice, You wrote: I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 17, 2012
          Hello Janice,
          You wrote: "I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations. What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development? I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons. It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org. Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone. Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar? Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money. Is that it?"

          I guess that I see it all as
          a puzzle that PT created,
          DG played with, and that
          Klemp altered, added to,
          omitted and scrambled
          up the pieces on. Trying
          to piece it all together and
          make sense of it all is what
          I'm attempting.

          The "spiritual" aspect of
          eckankar is comprised
          of shifting paradigms and
          wishful thinking (imagination)
          is encouraged. It's acting
          "as if." And, there are many
          mistakes in judgment and
          perception that are overlooked
          or seen as magical/mystical.
          One's status/level in Eckankar
          is what strengthens the
          illusion powered by ego.
          However, when all is said
          and done one is left with
          their own private and personal
          reality which cannot be
          fully shared with even
          those we view as intimate.

          If Initiations were given
          for "spiritual reasons"
          there would, also, be
          inner knowledge and
          inner communication
          with the Mahanta. EK
          Seminars would be
          conducted on the "Inner"
          via the Soul body and
          these would be free
          of charge!

          Yes, Service is key for
          Klemp's volunteer Sales
          Team and is promoted
          regularly. However, training
          is required in order for
          EKists to seem and sound
          more professional and
          knowledgable and to prepare
          Eckists to be flexible and
          unscathed in all situations.
          Plus, the training will aid
          in promoting those on the
          "fast track" and update
          the old timers to the new
          procedures.

          Basically, Service to the
          Mahanta's Mission is
          key. Getting noticed, in
          a positive way, is key as
          well. Training is also a
          key element in getting
          promoted. Being in Satsang
          and teaching a class is
          a plus as well. Doing intros
          will help and being seen
          at the EWS will help too.
          Always smile and know
          the current info from
          HK's stories and books.

          According to Eckankar
          the initiation numbers
          are yardstick measurements
          of one's spiritual growth.
          It's an enticing sounding
          spin but the reality is very
          bureaucratic and religious
          in the end.

          Prometheus





          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          Prometheus,

          The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.

          As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up. I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point. I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all.

          Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time. There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of. They gave what they could. They were not capable of more.

          I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes. But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time.

          It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude. If you don't know better, you can't do better.

          If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.

          We all know that's not possible.

          I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life. It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are.

          You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect. If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.

          You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.

          You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.

          Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all positions you may have held.

          You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.

          How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?

          You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.

          You changed course.

          A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.

          In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.

          I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations. What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development? I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons. It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org. Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone. Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar? Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money. Is that it?

          I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in. I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time. I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now. If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed. There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff.

          Thank you Prometheus


          prometheus wrote:

          Hello Janice, Non and All,
          Thank you for the kind
          words and understanding.
          It got me to thinking about
          the basis for the whole EK
          initiation eligibility screening.

          I think that we've all heard
          about the importance of
          keeping the EK Teachings
          "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
          must be current on procedures,
          and guidelines which will,
          also, ensure that they are
          able to regurgitate the
          approved propaganda.
          The initiation eligibility
          screenings are to sort out
          those who still need more
          training or are ready to
          advance to the next stage
          and take on more responsibilities
          with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
          Sales Teams.

          Plus, the initiation screenings
          ensure that Klemp will have
          people who are willing to
          participate in the promotion
          of the organization. It has
          nothing to do with one's
          spiritual growth. But, sincerity
          and believability goes a
          long way in convincing others.
          However, one can't be too
          deluded. One needs to be
          believable and this is why
          the faithful are the ones most
          shocked when they can finally
          open their minds to hear
          the truth.

          Maybe most of the heavy
          handed methods, lack of
          empathy and compassion,
          are rationalizations where
          the RESAs are thinking
          they are toughening up
          and strengthening Soul
          while, also, protecting
          the Mahanta, supporting
          his "Mission," and keeping
          the EK Teachings "pure"
          and unchangeable over
          time.

          When taking a second look;
          HK has his RESAs confused.
          How does Klemp continue
          to promote "change" and
          is always updating things
          while keeping the "original"
          EK Teachings by Twitchell
          "pure?" The truth is that,
          as LEM, Klemp has the
          authority to Change and
          revisit all EK Dogma and
          "update" and revise it
          with his own spin.

          Therefore, only the current
          EK teachings (Guidelines
          included) are "pure" according
          to what Klemp is suggesting.
          Except, the reason why HK
          has chosen not to reprint
          most of Twitchell's books
          is because they are highly
          plagiarized versus being
          "current" with today's higher
          consciousness.

          The foundation of Eckankar
          is built upon a con and a
          hoax and is not even copied
          from the highest "truths"
          of other religions since these
          religions are flawed as well.
          Twitchell's books are more
          evidence to prove the case
          and to show that he was
          simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
          and a narcissistic wannabe.

          Prometheus
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