Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

Expand Messages
  • Russ Rodnick
    Janice, you are so kind , thank you. Russ ________________________________ From: Janice Pfeiffer To:
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Janice,
      you are so kind , thank you.

      Russ


      From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:35 AM
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

       
      Hi Russ,
       
      I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from the start that those sacred initiations come from the mahanta. 
       
      I hope all goes well with you as you take the final stages of leaving eckankar.  I hope you will find comfort in knowing that you can stand on your own and any growth you had while in, you still have.  All along you were doing it for yourself, and you still can.
       
      I know you have the strength and courage to do anything you feel you have to do.  I hope you know that this site is a great place to get support should you needed. 
       
      Please know I will be thinking of you in the coming weeks and I will be sending warm thoughts your way.
       
      Keep your chin up and please know you are a very good person person.
       
      Janice

      --- On Sat, 12/15/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

      From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
      To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 3:35 PM

       
      Janice,

      I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

      I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

      That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

      On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

      I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

      Later,
      Russ


      From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

       
      Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
       
      Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
       
      That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
       
      In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
       
       I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
       
      The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
       
      It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
       
      When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
       
      Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
       
      I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
      --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

       
      Hello Janice,
      Thanks for the interesting
      reply and the sharing of
      insights and experiences.
      I really really enjoyed it
      all.

      The reason why someone
      knew you received your
      pink slip is because the
      RESA gets an initiation
      eligibility list where he/
      she will mark yea/nay
      for an initiation. When
      the yea is checked the
      ESC (membership services)
      will more than likely issue
      the pink slip for the initiation.
      Or, the file has been red
      flagged for some reason.
      Klemp, I'm told, will put
      a temporary hold on higher
      initiations. Maybe it's due
      to pending requirements
      for training/retraining.
      The ESC will notify the
      RESA when the pink slip
      is sent.

      Most Eckists don't know
      how the initiation process
      works.

      The RESA has a membership
      list generated by the ESC
      for all those EKists in their
      region and it will show
      initiation level, one's status
      and date of membership
      among other info. If a
      new person sends in a
      membership form to the
      ESC from anywhere in
      the RESA's region the RESA
      will be notified of who
      they are and their mailing
      address.

      I was glad Ford Johnson
      wrote his book and that
      I was told about it by an
      Eckist who is still an H.I.
      The Irony is that he was
      doing Public Information
      and was quite the gossip.

      I always was the skeptic
      and had trouble with a lot
      of what I saw and experienced
      around H.I.s.

      When I was a lower initiate
      I knew that many H.I.s weren't
      spiritual nor anywhere close
      to being enlightened. There
      were too many contradictions,
      restrictions, and hypocrisy.
      Once you're an EK member
      the next step is to get you
      to become a volunteer on
      HK's sales team.

      I always wondered how
      was there an "inner" connection
      to the Mahanta if H.I.s
      were still smoking and
      drinking alcohol, but
      getting promoted with
      more initiations? I knew
      of two 5ths who smoked
      and drank and got pink
      slips for the 6th. It's clear
      that Klemp knows nothing
      unless informed via phone
      or snailmail... email now!

      Yes, Janice, we were the
      ones awakened to the Truth
      while all of those "Higher"
      (pretend) Initiates are still
      sleeping. Many H.I.s have
      become very skilled at
      regurgitating the PR and
      at facilitating and public
      speaking. But, H.I.s have
      no idea of what it's like
      to be Free thinkers and
      free of religion and of the
      EK Hierarchy. They think
      that their "spiritual experiences"
      are unique when these
      are common and similar
      experiences that all religious
      seekers have had... even
      Christians!

      Yes, we needed Eckankar
      in order to fill a void and
      to learn some important
      lessons about ourselves
      and about religion in general.

      IMO, Those who left
      Eckankar but still have
      a need for religion, haven't
      really learned that they
      will never find answers
      via a group consciousness
      or via a guru/master.
      True, it is nice to know
      people of like mind and
      to share things, but this
      can be a bad thing as well
      if we become too attached
      or lazy and want to play
      follow the leader again.

      It all comes down to one's
      private and personal experiences
      and inner revelations with
      oneSelf and with whatever
      catalyst of "divine" creation.

      Prometheus

      Janice wrote:
      I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

      Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

      I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

      Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

      How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

      That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

      The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

      Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

      I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

      I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

      I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

      Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

      Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

      Blessings to all of you.


      prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
      > Yes, some EK Volunteers
      > in Satsang Society "settler"
      > and "explorer" positions at
      > the EK Centers would trip
      > over their egos and go on
      > power trips. Many seemed
      > cliquish and would huddle
      > together. Then, again, some
      > weren't all that friendly or
      > were very introverted and
      > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
      > including the clerics, to
      > greet and talk to all of the
      > new or seldom seen faces
      > that showed up. Many
      > only saw other Eckists at
      > the monthly EWS and this
      > was a time to catch up on
      > things. This is why I'd
      > suggest going to lunch
      > after the EWS and socializing.
      >
      > Many Eckists are Introverts.
      > True? I think so!
      >
      > Klemp's volunteer duties
      > and requirements for Eckists
      > means that they must take
      > on extroverted roles in
      > order to become H.I.s.
      > Eckists must force themselves,
      > against their innate natures,
      > to become extroverted and
      > egocentric. These leadership
      > requirements create conflict,
      > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
      > Thus, this imbalance that
      > Klemp has created and
      > reenforces aids him in
      > the brainwashing of his
      > flock to have programmed
      > religious faith, beliefs, and
      > mystical experiences. But,
      > this has its toll and is why
      > many long-time H.I.s choose
      > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
      > and his anal control tactics.
      >
      > Sometimes, at special
      > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
      > and mini retreats the
      > long-time H.I.s, former
      > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
      > members would gather
      > around and gossip about
      > those absent or present.
      > Only, it wasn't seen as
      > gossip but rationalized
      > as more of an evaluative/
      > investigative discussion
      > for possible initiation
      > recommendation or for
      > a Satsang position appointment.
      > They wanted to know,
      > from sources who knew
      > them, if there were problems
      > with these EKists and, if
      > so, what the specific details
      > were. It was all ego driven
      > and subjective because we
      > were all volunteers and
      > had family and personal
      > lives too. But, it did weed
      > out those who weren't as
      > well indoctrinated....
      > supposedly. But, HK's eck
      > crap (busy work) was pretty
      > much always a waste of
      > time so, in the long run,
      > enthusiasm was probably
      > more important than acting
      > the part. The Satsang positions
      > and duties kept people
      > busy, gave them a purpose
      > and made them feel good,
      > although, very stressed out.
      >
      > The Initiation game has made
      > Eckists struggle with denying
      > how much more they want of
      > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
      >
      > Janice, that was crazy, too,
      > that an ESA told you that the
      > people at the EK Center were
      > crazy. That just isn't done
      > and is part of HK's agenda
      > of Silence and retraining.
      >
      > There's that old Buddha quote
      > that Eckists sing and talk about
      > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
      > and this is supposed to keep
      > ECKists quiet or else they will
      > sometimes get reported:
      > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
      > this I ask myself before I
      > speak my mind." Interestingly,
      > following this criteria is very
      > subjective and could or would
      > Not, necessarily, stifle most
      > conservations.
      >
      > "It's a beautiful day!" This
      > may be "true" for you and
      > for most people but not
      > not for all people. And, is
      > it "necessary" to exclaim
      > this? And, is it "kind" to say
      > this within earshot of people
      > who aren't feeling well or
      > who can't enjoy the day?
      > Yet, it's used by Klemp
      > to keep the critics of his
      > policies and of his H.I.s
      > to a minimum.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > Russ Rodnick wrote:
      > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
      > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
      > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
      > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
      > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
      > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
      > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
      > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
      > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
      >
      > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
      > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
      >
      > Good to be away from it.
      >
      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      >
      > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
      > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
      > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
      > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
      > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
      > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
      > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
      > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
      > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
      > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
      > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
      > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
      > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
      > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
      > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
      > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
      > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
      > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
      > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
      > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
      > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
      > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
      > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
      > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
      > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
      > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
      > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
      > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
      >
      > Russ wrote:
      > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
      > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
      > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
      > made him so popular in the eck community.
      >
      > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
      > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
      > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
      > things.
      >
      > Russ
      >
      >
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      > Hello Non eckchains and All,
      > What has me ROFLMAO is
      > that Klemp has enough of
      > a problem that he used it
      > in the ASK The MASTER
      > section of the H.I. Letter!
      > And, it was the only question!
      > They had, supposedly, an
      > H.I. write-in and point out
      > the problem. No name given.
      >
      > I remember when I had
      > to deal with some older
      > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
      > coordinator and director
      > positions and it was
      > impossible to get this
      > one to follow the Guidelines
      > on EK Worship Services
      > (EWS). Many long-time
      > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
      > Guidelines and my
      > RESA turned a blind-
      > eye to it all. We had
      > so many former RESAs
      > in volunteer positions
      > that it was impossible
      > to get them on the
      > same page and to follow
      > procedures. I think
      > that some were just
      > burned out and tired
      > of Klemp's B.S. but
      > didn't want to leave.
      > Maybe they had too
      > many friendships to
      > lose. Plus, let's face
      > it. A lot of these people
      > are losers in the real
      > world but are big shots
      > in Eckankar. Those
      > Higher Initiations are
      > a big deal to the ego!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      > "Non" eckchains wrote:
      > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
      > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
      > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
      > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
      > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
      >
      > Non ;)
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello All,
      > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
      > > Letter I've read that
      > > Klemp still needs to
      > > update his Guidelines
      > > for the H.I.s in the
      > > field and chastise
      > > those who are slow
      > > to get with the program.
      > >
      > > Many long-time H.I.s
      > > want the freedom
      > > of Soul to be more
      > > individualistic,
      > > spontaneous, and
      > > creative by thinking
      > > they (Soul) can operate
      > > outside-of-the-box,
      > > thus, being channels
      > > for the ECK. Klemp
      > > has previously stated
      > > that he's imperfect,
      > > but that's not the case
      > > with the ECK, correct?
      > >
      > > Why, then, shouldn't
      > > their current (Present)
      > > Inner EK Guidance be
      > > followed versus that
      > > of outer set-in-stone
      > > ESC Guidelines printed
      > > in the Past and approved
      > > by a committee of imperfect
      > > people on a plane ruled
      > > by the KAL?
      > >
      > > H.I.s still haven't learned
      > > that freedom of expression
      > > doesn't work in Klemp's
      > > version of ECKankar.
      > > It's a hierarchy where
      > > everything is spelled
      > > out and controlled
      > > by him and his secret
      > > RESA police, plus, all
      > > field work must be
      > > approved via the
      > > current Guidelines.
      > >
      > > Many inexperienced
      > > EKists like the idea of
      > > being told how to do
      > > this or that and what
      > > approved books to use
      > > and what to say and
      > > other details to make
      > > the promotion of
      > > Eckankar easier.
      > >
      > > But the real point the
      > > ESC (Klemp) is making
      > > is to have EK PR more
      > > consistent and cookie
      > > cutter looking/sounding
      > > for the public.
      > >
      > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
      > > are like following a
      > > recipe set-in-stone
      > > that disregards individual
      > > or regional tastes and
      > > disallows any additions
      > > or omissions of other
      > > ingredients, methods,
      > > and/or spices.
      > >
      > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
      > > are about H.I.s resisting
      > > change. He says they "rock
      > > the boat" out of "fear" and
      > > that "it's all about fear."
      > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
      > > and "reinforce in each other
      > > a group's opposition to
      > > anything new." Strange
      > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
      > > subject to fear since he's
      > > supposed to protect them!
      > > This is how the KAL works.
      > > Klemp is his agent.
      > >
      > > However, the real 'change'
      > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
      > > Klemp's nonsense and
      > > heavy handed control tactics.
      > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
      > > the Freedom of Soul versus
      > > being bound to dogma.
      > > HK side-steps delivering
      > > on his promises of protection
      > > and never has anything
      > > profound to share. And,
      > > where are those Higher
      > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
      > > yardsticks in measuring
      > > Consciousness and Spiritual
      > > Growth? Klemp is playing
      > > the long-con and is, thus,
      > > stingy and self-serving.
      > >
      > > Harold goes on to say that
      > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
      > > on the path to God instead
      > > of being stepping stones."
      > > Apparently, being creative
      > > and spontaneous and
      > > following "Inner Nudges"
      > > and/or "Signs" are not
      > > permitted if it conflicts
      > > with the LEM's outer,
      > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
      > >
      > > The LEM states that, "We
      > > are here to learn." However,
      > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
      > > from others since he never
      > > listens? He's the Top goD
      > > and doesn't partake in
      > > two-way dialogues with
      > > those under his authority.
      > >
      > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
      > > and unloving as he continues
      > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
      > > believe that if they sit still
      > > and breathe only enough to
      > > sustain life that they may
      > > well dodge the lightning
      > > strikes of irksome change."
      > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
      > > like KAL! However, by doing
      > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
      > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
      > > Don't EKists still die of all
      > > sorts of illnesses and situations
      > > that could have be averted
      > > if they had gotten proper
      > > and immediate care? Sure!
      > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
      > > ECKists and his veiled threats
      > > are meaningless... unless
      > > you've given this Black
      > > Magician power over you!
      > >
      > > But, it seems that HK
      > > has something else stuck
      > > in his craw. It seems to
      > > me that Klemp doesn't
      > > like his 7ths just sitting
      > > still and Contemplating
      > > or HUing, and enjoying
      > > life. But why shouldn't
      > > they take it easy after
      > > 40 years of doing PR
      > > work for Eckankar!
      > >
      > > So, what does Klemp
      > > the All compassionate,
      > > loving, positive, and
      > > empathetic icon of EK
      > > conclude?
      > >
      > > "An H.I. who blatantly
      > > refuses to adhere to
      > > the ECK Guidelines
      > > needs to be addressed
      > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
      > > I wonder what that
      > > really means? Well,
      > > unless you're already
      > > a 7th you can kiss that
      > > next initiation good-bye
      > > for like 10-20 years!
      > >
      > > Klemp continues to say,
      > > "These are big stakes!
      > > Continued refusal means
      > > it's time for a replacement
      > > to step in. A change is
      > > due. Change. isn't it
      > > funny how we have come
      > > full circle?" No! It's not
      > > really funny. Klemp
      > > abuses the concept
      > > of "change" and makes
      > > it into a misnomer.
      > >
      > > What "changes" are there
      > > in Eckankar? The same
      > > old things are merely
      > > revisited, updated, dusted
      > > off and made to seem
      > > "new." It's all a facade,
      > > smoke and mirrors, and
      > > a game of pretend by
      > > creating brightly colored
      > > straws to grab at and
      > > cling to when drowning.
      > >
      > > Too bad that EKists are
      > > so deluded and needy
      > > and aren't able to read
      > > between the lines and
      > > see the real truth behind
      > > Klemp's words and methods.
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      >





    • prometheus_973
      Hello Janice, Non and All, Thank you for the kind words and understanding. It got me to thinking about the basis for the whole EK initiation eligibility
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Janice, Non and All,
        Thank you for the kind
        words and understanding.
        It got me to thinking about
        the basis for the whole EK
        initiation eligibility screening.

        I think that we've all heard
        about the importance of
        keeping the EK Teachings
        "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
        must be current on procedures,
        and guidelines which will,
        also, ensure that they are
        able to regurgitate the
        approved propaganda.
        The initiation eligibility
        screenings are to sort out
        those who still need more
        training or are ready to
        advance to the next stage
        and take on more responsibilities
        with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
        Sales Teams.

        Plus, the initiation screenings
        ensure that Klemp will have
        people who are willing to
        participate in the promotion
        of the organization. It has
        nothing to do with one's
        spiritual growth. But, sincerity
        and believability goes a
        long way in convincing others.
        However, one can't be too
        deluded. One needs to be
        believable and this is why
        the faithful are the ones most
        shocked when they can finally
        open their minds to hear
        the truth.

        Maybe most of the heavy
        handed methods, lack of
        empathy and compassion,
        are rationalizations where
        the RESAs are thinking
        they are toughening up
        and strengthening Soul
        while, also, protecting
        the Mahanta, supporting
        his "Mission," and keeping
        the EK Teachings "pure"
        and unchangeable over
        time.

        When taking a second look;
        HK has his RESAs confused.
        How does Klemp continue
        to promote "change" and
        is always updating things
        while keeping the "original"
        EK Teachings by Twitchell
        "pure?" The truth is that,
        as LEM, Klemp has the
        authority to Change and
        revisit all EK Dogma and
        "update" and revise it
        with his own spin.

        Therefore, only the current
        EK teachings (Guidelines
        included) are "pure" according
        to what Klemp is suggesting.
        Except, the reason why HK
        has chosen not to reprint
        most of Twitchell's books
        is because they are highly
        plagiarized versus being
        "current" with today's higher
        consciousness.

        The foundation of Eckankar
        is built upon a con and a
        hoax and is not even copied
        from the highest "truths"
        of other religions since these
        religions are flawed as well.
        Twitchell's books are more
        evidence to prove the case
        and to show that he was
        simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
        and a narcissistic wannabe.

        Prometheus


        Prometheus

        Janice wrote:
        I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

        At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

        Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

        Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

        Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

        I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

        By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

        Be at peace

        Janice


        Non ekchains:

        Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

        Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

        http://www.lucifereffect.com/

        Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

        In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

        I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

        Blessings

        Non ;)


        prometheus wrote:

        Hello Janice,
        Most H.I.s have no idea
        how the EK Initiation
        process works. It's sad
        because there are some
        really nice and gentile
        chelas who have been
        passed over on the 5th.
        Some died as 4ths when
        they should have had
        some happiness, peace
        of mind, and contentment
        by receiving that 5th.
        I've know several eckists
        where this has happened.
        It was no big deal to give
        them their 5th initiation,
        but some RESAs are mean-
        spirited, lack empathy,
        and are petty. They've
        gotten caught up in HK's
        game. All Eckists should
        get the 5th after no more
        than 20 years, especially,
        when they participate
        and are kept current on
        their membership. However,
        that's not the way the
        power trip is played by
        some RESAs.

        I hate to admit this but
        I helped the RESA when
        asked about people. I
        was quizzed about those
        up for, usually, the 5th
        and 6th initiation. I was
        asked about what the EKist
        said, how they acted and
        conducted themselves
        and any unusual things
        that I noticed about
        their behavior or performance.
        And then I was asked for
        my opinion. Unfortunately
        my replies, I know, had
        some initiations delayed
        for these people and I
        regret that I got caught
        up in this petty mind game.
        Some of these people are
        still H.I.s and have no idea
        why they had to wait so
        long for their 5th or 6th.
        Many probably think that
        the Mahanta was testing
        them! LOL! On the other
        hand maybe some of them,
        by now, have been asked
        to evaluate people too.
        I wonder if they put two
        and two together and
        figured it out.

        Why, though, should
        Klemp have a system
        for initiations that judges
        and punishes Eckists
        based upon our evaluations?
        Where's that Inner Knowingness
        of the Mahanta?

        Besides, a 5th is no big
        deal, and it's not like one
        becomes a cleric automatically
        with a 5th. Really, being
        an 5th is no more being
        an official representative
        of Eckankar than is a 4th.

        Yes, most Eckists have
        no idea that a computer
        generated eligibility list
        is sent to the RESA by the
        ESC and that phone calls
        are made asking questions
        where subjective answers
        are given and that the RESA
        uses these to either approve
        and give a recommendation
        for initiation or doesn't.
        However, I will say that
        any "No" has to have an
        valid reason. The ESC
        usually follows the RESAs'
        recommendations.

        BTW- Janice, I think that
        your RESA approved of
        your initiation because
        he felt guilty for having
        yelled at you, plus, you
        could have reported him
        to the ESC. Maybe the
        initiation approval was
        meant to appease you?

        Prometheus

        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

        Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
        teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
        person?

        That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
        was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
        on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
        crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
        that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
        was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
        totally useless.

        In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
        about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

        I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
        of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
        didn't use his name at all.

        The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
        seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
        had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
        then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
        asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
        times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
        along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
        his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
        point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
        time and hung up.

        It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
        up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
        called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
        appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
        paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
        performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
        that was part of it.

        When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
        thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
        there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
        was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
        the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
        insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
        was enough.

        Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
        true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
        I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

        I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
        opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
        like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

        prometheus wrote:

        Hello Janice,
        Thanks for the interesting
        reply and the sharing of
        insights and experiences.
        I really really enjoyed it
        all.

        The reason why someone
        knew you received your
        pink slip is because the
        RESA gets an initiation
        eligibility list where he/
        she will mark yea/nay
        for an initiation. When
        the yea is checked the
        ESC (membership services)
        will more than likely issue
        the pink slip for the initiation.
        Or, the file has been red
        flagged for some reason.
        Klemp, I'm told, will put
        a temporary hold on higher
        initiations. Maybe it's due
        to pending requirements
        for training/retraining.
        The ESC will notify the
        RESA when the pink slip
        is sent.

        Most Eckists don't know
        how the initiation process
        works.

        The RESA has a membership
        list generated by the ESC
        for all those EKists in their
        region and it will show
        initiation level, one's status
        and date of membership
        among other info. If a
        new person sends in a
        membership form to the
        ESC from anywhere in
        the RESA's region the RESA
        will be notified of who
        they are and their mailing
        address.

        I was glad Ford Johnson
        wrote his book and that
        I was told about it by an
        Eckist who is still an H.I.
        The Irony is that he was
        doing Public Information
        and was quite the gossip.

        I always was the skeptic
        and had trouble with a lot
        of what I saw and experienced
        around H.I.s.

        When I was a lower initiate
        I knew that many H.I.s weren't
        spiritual nor anywhere close
        to being enlightened. There
        were too many contradictions,
        restrictions, and hypocrisy.
        Once you're an EK member
        the next step is to get you
        to become a volunteer on
        HK's sales team.

        I always wondered how
        was there an "inner" connection
        to the Mahanta if H.I.s
        were still smoking and
        drinking alcohol, but
        getting promoted with
        more initiations? I knew
        of two 5ths who smoked
        and drank and got pink
        slips for the 6th. It's clear
        that Klemp knows nothing
        unless informed via phone
        or snailmail... email now!

        Yes, Janice, we were the
        ones awakened to the Truth
        while all of those "Higher"
        (pretend) Initiates are still
        sleeping. Many H.I.s have
        become very skilled at
        regurgitating the PR and
        at facilitating and public
        speaking. But, H.I.s have
        no idea of what it's like
        to be Free thinkers and
        free of religion and of the
        EK Hierarchy. They think
        that their "spiritual experiences"
        are unique when these
        are common and similar
        experiences that all religious
        seekers have had... even
        Christians!

        Yes, we needed Eckankar
        in order to fill a void and
        to learn some important
        lessons about ourselves
        and about religion in general.

        IMO, Those who left
        Eckankar but still have
        a need for religion, haven't
        really learned that they
        will never find answers
        via a group consciousness
        or via a guru/master.
        True, it is nice to know
        people of like mind and
        to share things, but this
        can be a bad thing as well
        if we become too attached
        or lazy and want to play
        follow the leader again.

        It all comes down to one's
        private and personal experiences
        and inner revelations with
        oneSelf and with whatever
        catalyst of "divine" creation.

        Prometheus

        Janice wrote:
        I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
        it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
        people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
        The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
        new people.

        Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
        little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
        to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
        you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
        you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
        to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
        initiations.

        I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
        contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
        questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
        he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
        not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

        Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
        me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
        about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
        even.

        How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
        supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
        about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
        getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
        seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
        games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
        opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
        Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
        tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
        become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

        That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
        for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
        eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
        instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
        the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
        Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
        lucky that I got out when I did.

        The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
        lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
        they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
        in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
        good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
        that point the lies.

        Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
        like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
        not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
        define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
        individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
        responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
        after seeing where blind obedience leads.

        I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
        individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
        the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
        in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
        this.

        I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
        maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
        spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
        all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
        the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
        own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
        quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

        I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
        mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
        there and I did walk away of my own free will.

        Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
        they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
        spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
        slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
        getting out could lead to better things.

        Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
        reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
        your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
        to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
        serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
        the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
        are.

        Blessings to all of you.
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        Prometheus,   The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.   As a young person, I blamed my parents
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 17, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Prometheus,
           
          The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.
           
          As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up.  I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point.  I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all. 
           
          Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time.  There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of.  They gave what they could.  They were not capable of more.
           
          I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes.  But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time. 
           
          It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude.  If you don't know better, you can't do better.
           
          If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.
           
          We all know that's not possible.  
           
          I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life.  It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are. 
           
          You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect.  If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.
           
          You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.
           
          You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.
           
          Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all  positions you may have held.
           
          You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.
           
          How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?
           
          You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.
           
          You changed course. 
           
          A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.
           
          In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.
           
          I do have a question.  You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations.  What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development?  I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons.  It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org.  Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone.  Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar?  Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money.  Is that it?
           
          I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in.  I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time.  I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now.  If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed.  There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff. 
           
          Thank you Prometheus
           


          --- On Sun, 12/16/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 6:44 PM

           
          Hello Janice, Non and All,
          Thank you for the kind
          words and understanding.
          It got me to thinking about
          the basis for the whole EK
          initiation eligibility screening.

          I think that we've all heard
          about the importance of
          keeping the EK Teachings
          "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
          must be current on procedures,
          and guidelines which will,
          also, ensure that they are
          able to regurgitate the
          approved propaganda.
          The initiation eligibility
          screenings are to sort out
          those who still need more
          training or are ready to
          advance to the next stage
          and take on more responsibilities
          with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
          Sales Teams.

          Plus, the initiation screenings
          ensure that Klemp will have
          people who are willing to
          participate in the promotion
          of the organization. It has
          nothing to do with one's
          spiritual growth. But, sincerity
          and believability goes a
          long way in convincing others.
          However, one can't be too
          deluded. One needs to be
          believable and this is why
          the faithful are the ones most
          shocked when they can finally
          open their minds to hear
          the truth.

          Maybe most of the heavy
          handed methods, lack of
          empathy and compassion,
          are rationalizations where
          the RESAs are thinking
          they are toughening up
          and strengthening Soul
          while, also, protecting
          the Mahanta, supporting
          his "Mission," and keeping
          the EK Teachings "pure"
          and unchangeable over
          time.

          When taking a second look;
          HK has his RESAs confused.
          How does Klemp continue
          to promote "change" and
          is always updating things
          while keeping the "original"
          EK Teachings by Twitchell
          "pure?" The truth is that,
          as LEM, Klemp has the
          authority to Change and
          revisit all EK Dogma and
          "update" and revise it
          with his own spin.

          Therefore, only the current
          EK teachings (Guidelines
          included) are "pure" according
          to what Klemp is suggesting.
          Except, the reason why HK
          has chosen not to reprint
          most of Twitchell's books
          is because they are highly
          plagiarized versus being
          "current" with today's higher
          consciousness.

          The foundation of Eckankar
          is built upon a con and a
          hoax and is not even copied
          from the highest "truths"
          of other religions since these
          religions are flawed as well.
          Twitchell's books are more
          evidence to prove the case
          and to show that he was
          simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
          and a narcissistic wannabe.

          Prometheus

          Prometheus

          Janice wrote:
          I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

          At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

          Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

          Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

          Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

          I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

          By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

          Be at peace

          Janice


          Non ekchains:

          Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

          Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

          http://www.lucifereffect.com/

          Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

          In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

          I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

          Blessings

          Non ;)

          prometheus wrote:

          Hello Janice,
          Most H.I.s have no idea
          how the EK Initiation
          process works. It's sad
          because there are some
          really nice and gentile
          chelas who have been
          passed over on the 5th.
          Some died as 4ths when
          they should have had
          some happiness, peace
          of mind, and contentment
          by receiving that 5th.
          I've know several eckists
          where this has happened.
          It was no big deal to give
          them their 5th initiation,
          but some RESAs are mean-
          spirited, lack empathy,
          and are petty. They've
          gotten caught up in HK's
          game. All Eckists should
          get the 5th after no more
          than 20 years, especially,
          when they participate
          and are kept current on
          their membership. However,
          that's not the way the
          power trip is played by
          some RESAs.

          I hate to admit this but
          I helped the RESA when
          asked about people. I
          was quizzed about those
          up for, usually, the 5th
          and 6th initiation. I was
          asked about what the EKist
          said, how they acted and
          conducted themselves
          and any unusual things
          that I noticed about
          their behavior or performance.
          And then I was asked for
          my opinion. Unfortunately
          my replies, I know, had
          some initiations delayed
          for these people and I
          regret that I got caught
          up in this petty mind game.
          Some of these people are
          still H.I.s and have no idea
          why they had to wait so
          long for their 5th or 6th.
          Many probably think that
          the Mahanta was testing
          them! LOL! On the other
          hand maybe some of them,
          by now, have been asked
          to evaluate people too.
          I wonder if they put two
          and two together and
          figured it out.

          Why, though, should
          Klemp have a system
          for initiations that judges
          and punishes Eckists
          based upon our evaluations?
          Where's that Inner Knowingness
          of the Mahanta?

          Besides, a 5th is no big
          deal, and it's not like one
          becomes a cleric automatically
          with a 5th. Really, being
          an 5th is no more being
          an official representative
          of Eckankar than is a 4th.

          Yes, most Eckists have
          no idea that a computer
          generated eligibility list
          is sent to the RESA by the
          ESC and that phone calls
          are made asking questions
          where subjective answers
          are given and that the RESA
          uses these to either approve
          and give a recommendation
          for initiation or doesn't.
          However, I will say that
          any "No" has to have an
          valid reason. The ESC
          usually follows the RESAs'
          recommendations.

          BTW- Janice, I think that
          your RESA approved of
          your initiation because
          he felt guilty for having
          yelled at you, plus, you
          could have reported him
          to the ESC. Maybe the
          initiation approval was
          meant to appease you?

          Prometheus

          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

          Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
          teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
          person?

          That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
          was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
          on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
          crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
          that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
          was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
          totally useless.

          In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
          about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

          I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
          of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
          didn't use his name at all.

          The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
          seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
          had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
          then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
          asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
          times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
          along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
          his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
          point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
          time and hung up.

          It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
          up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
          called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
          appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
          paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
          performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
          that was part of it.

          When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
          thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
          there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
          was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
          the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
          insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
          was enough.

          Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
          true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
          I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

          I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
          opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
          like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

          prometheus wrote:

          Hello Janice,
          Thanks for the interesting
          reply and the sharing of
          insights and experiences.
          I really really enjoyed it
          all.

          The reason why someone
          knew you received your
          pink slip is because the
          RESA gets an initiation
          eligibility list where he/
          she will mark yea/nay
          for an initiation. When
          the yea is checked the
          ESC (membership services)
          will more than likely issue
          the pink slip for the initiation.
          Or, the file has been red
          flagged for some reason.
          Klemp, I'm told, will put
          a temporary hold on higher
          initiations. Maybe it's due
          to pending requirements
          for training/retraining.
          The ESC will notify the
          RESA when the pink slip
          is sent.

          Most Eckists don't know
          how the initiation process
          works.

          The RESA has a membership
          list generated by the ESC
          for all those EKists in their
          region and it will show
          initiation level, one's status
          and date of membership
          among other info. If a
          new person sends in a
          membership form to the
          ESC from anywhere in
          the RESA's region the RESA
          will be notified of who
          they are and their mailing
          address.

          I was glad Ford Johnson
          wrote his book and that
          I was told about it by an
          Eckist who is still an H.I.
          The Irony is that he was
          doing Public Information
          and was quite the gossip.

          I always was the skeptic
          and had trouble with a lot
          of what I saw and experienced
          around H.I.s.

          When I was a lower initiate
          I knew that many H.I.s weren't
          spiritual nor anywhere close
          to being enlightened. There
          were too many contradictions,
          restrictions, and hypocrisy.
          Once you're an EK member
          the next step is to get you
          to become a volunteer on
          HK's sales team.

          I always wondered how
          was there an "inner" connection
          to the Mahanta if H.I.s
          were still smoking and
          drinking alcohol, but
          getting promoted with
          more initiations? I knew
          of two 5ths who smoked
          and drank and got pink
          slips for the 6th. It's clear
          that Klemp knows nothing
          unless informed via phone
          or snailmail... email now!

          Yes, Janice, we were the
          ones awakened to the Truth
          while all of those "Higher"
          (pretend) Initiates are still
          sleeping. Many H.I.s have
          become very skilled at
          regurgitating the PR and
          at facilitating and public
          speaking. But, H.I.s have
          no idea of what it's like
          to be Free thinkers and
          free of religion and of the
          EK Hierarchy. They think
          that their "spiritual experiences"
          are unique when these
          are common and similar
          experiences that all religious
          seekers have had... even
          Christians!

          Yes, we needed Eckankar
          in order to fill a void and
          to learn some important
          lessons about ourselves
          and about religion in general.

          IMO, Those who left
          Eckankar but still have
          a need for religion, haven't
          really learned that they
          will never find answers
          via a group consciousness
          or via a guru/master.
          True, it is nice to know
          people of like mind and
          to share things, but this
          can be a bad thing as well
          if we become too attached
          or lazy and want to play
          follow the leader again.

          It all comes down to one's
          private and personal experiences
          and inner revelations with
          oneSelf and with whatever
          catalyst of "divine" creation.

          Prometheus

          Janice wrote:
          I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
          it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
          people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
          The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
          new people.

          Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
          little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
          to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
          you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
          you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
          to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
          initiations.

          I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
          contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
          questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
          he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
          not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

          Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
          me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
          about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
          even.

          How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
          supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
          about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
          getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
          seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
          games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
          opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
          Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
          tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
          become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

          That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
          for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
          eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
          instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
          the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
          Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
          lucky that I got out when I did.

          The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
          lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
          they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
          in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
          good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
          that point the lies.

          Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
          like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
          not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
          define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
          individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
          responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
          after seeing where blind obedience leads.

          I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
          individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
          the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
          in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
          this.

          I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
          maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
          spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
          all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
          the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
          own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
          quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

          I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
          mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
          there and I did walk away of my own free will.

          Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
          they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
          spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
          slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
          getting out could lead to better things.

          Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
          reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
          your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
          to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
          serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
          the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
          are.

          Blessings to all of you.

        • prometheus_973
          Hello Janice, You wrote: I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 17, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Janice,
            You wrote: "I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations. What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development? I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons. It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org. Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone. Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar? Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money. Is that it?"

            I guess that I see it all as
            a puzzle that PT created,
            DG played with, and that
            Klemp altered, added to,
            omitted and scrambled
            up the pieces on. Trying
            to piece it all together and
            make sense of it all is what
            I'm attempting.

            The "spiritual" aspect of
            eckankar is comprised
            of shifting paradigms and
            wishful thinking (imagination)
            is encouraged. It's acting
            "as if." And, there are many
            mistakes in judgment and
            perception that are overlooked
            or seen as magical/mystical.
            One's status/level in Eckankar
            is what strengthens the
            illusion powered by ego.
            However, when all is said
            and done one is left with
            their own private and personal
            reality which cannot be
            fully shared with even
            those we view as intimate.

            If Initiations were given
            for "spiritual reasons"
            there would, also, be
            inner knowledge and
            inner communication
            with the Mahanta. EK
            Seminars would be
            conducted on the "Inner"
            via the Soul body and
            these would be free
            of charge!

            Yes, Service is key for
            Klemp's volunteer Sales
            Team and is promoted
            regularly. However, training
            is required in order for
            EKists to seem and sound
            more professional and
            knowledgable and to prepare
            Eckists to be flexible and
            unscathed in all situations.
            Plus, the training will aid
            in promoting those on the
            "fast track" and update
            the old timers to the new
            procedures.

            Basically, Service to the
            Mahanta's Mission is
            key. Getting noticed, in
            a positive way, is key as
            well. Training is also a
            key element in getting
            promoted. Being in Satsang
            and teaching a class is
            a plus as well. Doing intros
            will help and being seen
            at the EWS will help too.
            Always smile and know
            the current info from
            HK's stories and books.

            According to Eckankar
            the initiation numbers
            are yardstick measurements
            of one's spiritual growth.
            It's an enticing sounding
            spin but the reality is very
            bureaucratic and religious
            in the end.

            Prometheus





            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            Prometheus,

            The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.

            As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up. I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point. I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all.

            Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time. There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of. They gave what they could. They were not capable of more.

            I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes. But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time.

            It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude. If you don't know better, you can't do better.

            If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.

            We all know that's not possible.

            I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life. It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are.

            You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect. If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.

            You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.

            You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.

            Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all positions you may have held.

            You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.

            How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?

            You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.

            You changed course.

            A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.

            In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.

            I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations. What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development? I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons. It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org. Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone. Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar? Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money. Is that it?

            I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in. I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time. I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now. If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed. There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff.

            Thank you Prometheus


            prometheus wrote:

            Hello Janice, Non and All,
            Thank you for the kind
            words and understanding.
            It got me to thinking about
            the basis for the whole EK
            initiation eligibility screening.

            I think that we've all heard
            about the importance of
            keeping the EK Teachings
            "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
            must be current on procedures,
            and guidelines which will,
            also, ensure that they are
            able to regurgitate the
            approved propaganda.
            The initiation eligibility
            screenings are to sort out
            those who still need more
            training or are ready to
            advance to the next stage
            and take on more responsibilities
            with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
            Sales Teams.

            Plus, the initiation screenings
            ensure that Klemp will have
            people who are willing to
            participate in the promotion
            of the organization. It has
            nothing to do with one's
            spiritual growth. But, sincerity
            and believability goes a
            long way in convincing others.
            However, one can't be too
            deluded. One needs to be
            believable and this is why
            the faithful are the ones most
            shocked when they can finally
            open their minds to hear
            the truth.

            Maybe most of the heavy
            handed methods, lack of
            empathy and compassion,
            are rationalizations where
            the RESAs are thinking
            they are toughening up
            and strengthening Soul
            while, also, protecting
            the Mahanta, supporting
            his "Mission," and keeping
            the EK Teachings "pure"
            and unchangeable over
            time.

            When taking a second look;
            HK has his RESAs confused.
            How does Klemp continue
            to promote "change" and
            is always updating things
            while keeping the "original"
            EK Teachings by Twitchell
            "pure?" The truth is that,
            as LEM, Klemp has the
            authority to Change and
            revisit all EK Dogma and
            "update" and revise it
            with his own spin.

            Therefore, only the current
            EK teachings (Guidelines
            included) are "pure" according
            to what Klemp is suggesting.
            Except, the reason why HK
            has chosen not to reprint
            most of Twitchell's books
            is because they are highly
            plagiarized versus being
            "current" with today's higher
            consciousness.

            The foundation of Eckankar
            is built upon a con and a
            hoax and is not even copied
            from the highest "truths"
            of other religions since these
            religions are flawed as well.
            Twitchell's books are more
            evidence to prove the case
            and to show that he was
            simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
            and a narcissistic wannabe.

            Prometheus
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.