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Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Janice, Klemp will keep tightening the screws and dangling the initiation carrot. It s his M.O. However, he doesn t care about the repercussions because
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
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      Hello Janice,
      Klemp will keep tightening
      the screws and dangling
      the initiation carrot. It's his
      M.O. However, he doesn't
      care about the repercussions
      because he's financially
      solid and secure with his
      book royalties and retirement
      plan. But he does still like
      the attention. Eckankar, and
      EK writing, is Klemp's hobby.

      It's interesting if you look
      at some pics of the H.I.s at
      Retreats or at their H.I. Meetings
      you might notice there are
      many elderly (70 years plus)
      H.I.s. Those age 60 and older
      probably make up 75% of
      the total number of EK Higher
      Initiates.

      Klemp, by slowing down initiations
      and placing the glass ceiling
      on the 7th has discouraged
      many H.I.s. Of course there
      are some 8ths and a few 9ths
      but these numbers are nowhere
      what they should be and don't
      reflect the dogma or goals of
      Twitchell. The frustration with
      Klemp's stinginess in doling
      out initiations via his narcissism
      has done more harm to Eckankar
      maintaining membership numbers
      than any of their PR tactics have
      been able to compensated for.

      Yet, many EKists refuse to see
      this reality and hold Klemp
      responsible. HK's ploy is telling
      them that it's all a "test" and
      to be patient and detached
      when, in truth, it's all a "trap."

      There are many 7ths who have
      had their 7th Initiation for 25
      years! Why? Klemp is playing
      with them and they've got too
      much time, energy, money, status,
      EK friends and history invested
      to leave. It's all they know. It's
      pitiful, and the longer and higher
      they are the less free they are.
      But, they are good actors and,
      like Klemp, have learned how
      to play the game... follow the
      leader.

      Prometheus

      Janice wrote:
      Thank all of you for the interesting reading. I think it would be cool if klemp keeps tightening the screws. Hopefully, it will only drive more away. So many of you had a lot more time than I did in eckankar. I really had a hard time dealing with HI attitudes from day one. Reading what you have to say explains a lot of things for me. I appreciate it very much.


      Non ekchains wrote:
      It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

      Non ;)

      prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
      > Letter I've read that
      > Klemp still needs to
      > update his Guidelines
      > for the H.I.s in the
      > field and chastise
      > those who are slow
      > to get with the program.
      >
      > Many long-time H.I.s
      > want the freedom
      > of Soul to be more
      > individualistic,
      > spontaneous, and
      > creative by thinking
      > they (Soul) can operate
      > outside-of-the-box,
      > thus, being channels
      > for the ECK. Klemp
      > has previously stated
      > that he's imperfect,
      > but that's not the case
      > with the ECK, correct?
      >
      > Why, then, shouldn't
      > their current (Present)
      > Inner EK Guidance be
      > followed versus that
      > of outer set-in-stone
      > ESC Guidelines printed
      > in the Past and approved
      > by a committee of imperfect
      > people on a plane ruled
      > by the KAL?
      >
      > H.I.s still haven't learned
      > that it doesn't work
      > that way in Klemp's
      > version of ECKankar.
      > It's a hierarchy where
      > everything is spelled
      > out and controlled
      > by him and his secret
      > RESA police and that
      > all field work must be
      > approved of first and
      > follow the current
      > Guidelines.
      >
      > Many inexperienced
      > EKists like the idea of
      > being told how to do
      > this or that and what
      > approved books to use
      > and what to say and
      > other details to make
      > the promotion of
      > Eckankar easier.
      >
      > But the real point the
      > ESC (Klemp) is making
      > is to have EK PR more
      > consistent and cookie
      > cutter looking/sounding
      > for the public.
      >
      > Plus, the EK Guidelines
      > are like following a
      > recipe set-in-stone
      > that disregards individual
      > or regional tastes and
      > disallows any additions
      > or omissions of other
      > ingredients, methods,
      > and/or spices.
      >
      > Klemp's foretold admonishments
      > are about H.I.s resisting
      > change. They "rock the
      > boat" out of "fear" and
      > that's "it's all about fear."
      > That "they huddle in packs"
      > and "reinforce in each other
      > a group's opposition to
      > anything new." Strange
      > that Klemp's H.I.s are
      > subject to fear since he's
      > supposed to protect them!
      >
      > However, the real 'change'
      > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
      > Klemp's nonsense and
      > heavy handed control tactics.
      > Many H.I.s, however, chose
      > the Freedom of Soul versus
      > being bound to dogma.
      > HK side-steps delivering
      > on his promises of protection
      > and never has anything
      > profound to share. And,
      > where are those Higher
      > Initiations that are, supposedly,
      > yardsticks in measuring
      > Consciousness and Spiritual
      > Growth? Klemp is playing
      > the long-con and is, thus,
      > stingy and self-serving.
      >
      > Harold goes on to say that
      > these H.I.s are "obstructions
      > on the path to God instead
      > of being stepping stones."
      > Apparently, being creative
      > and spontaneous and
      > following "Inner Nudges"
      > and/or "Signs" are not
      > permitted if it conflicts
      > with the LEM's outer,
      > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
      >
      > The LEM states that, "We
      > are here to learn." However,
      > what is it that Klemp "learns"
      > from others since he never
      > listens? He's the Top goD
      > and doesn't partake in
      > two-way dialogues with
      > those under his authority.
      >
      > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
      > and unloving as he continues
      > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
      > believe that if they sit still
      > and breathe only enough to
      > sustain life that they may
      > well dodge the lightning
      > strikes of irksome change."
      > Is that a threat? HK sounds
      > like KAL! However, by doing
      > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
      > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
      > Don't EKists still die of all
      > sorts of illnesses and situations
      > that could have be averted
      > if they had gotten proper
      > and immediate care? Sure!
      > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
      > ECKists and his veiled threats
      > are meaningless... unless
      > you've given this Black
      > Magician power over you!
      >
      > But, it seems that HK
      > has something else stuck
      > in his craw. It seems to
      > me that Klemp doesn't
      > like his 7ths just sitting
      > still and Contemplating
      > or HUing, and enjoying
      > life. But why shouldn't
      > they take it easy after
      > 40 years of doing PR
      > work for Eckankar!
      >
      > So, what does Klemp
      > the All compassionate,
      > loving, positive, and
      > empathetic icon of EK
      > conclude?
      >
      > "An H.I. who blatantly
      > refuses to adhere to
      > the ECK Guidelines
      > needs to be addressed
      > on the issues." Hmmmm.
      > I wonder what that
      > really means? Well,
      > unless you're already
      > a 7th you can kiss that
      > next initiation good-bye
      > for like 10-20 years!
      >
      > Klemp continues to say,
      > "These are big stakes!
      > Continued refusal means
      > it's time for a replacement
      > to step in. A change is
      > due. Change. isn't it
      > funny how we have come
      > full circle?" No! It's not
      > really funny. Klemp
      > abuses the concept
      > of "change" and makes
      > it into a misnomer.
      >
      > What "changes" are there
      > in Eckankar? The same
      > old things are merely
      > revisited, updated, dusted
      > off and made to seem
      > "new." It's all a facade,
      > smoke and mirrors, and
      > a game of pretend by
      > creating brightly colored
      > straws to grab at and
      > cling to when drowning.
      >
      > Too bad that EKists are
      > so deluded and needy
      > and aren't able to read
      > between the lines and
      > see the real truth behind
      > Klemp's words and methods.
      >
      > Prometheus
    • Janice Pfeiffer
      Do you think many new members are being attracted to eckankar at this point?  I hope the org is drying up from a lack of new members.  When one cult gets
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
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        Do you think many new members are being attracted to eckankar at this point?  I hope the org is drying up from a lack of new members.  When one cult gets negative exposure hopefully they all suffer.  Scientology has been making the news with their antics a lot in the past year and their membership seems to be suffering.  I do so wish the same for eckankar. 
         
        When I first joined this site, I still felt some anger toward eckankar and myself also.  It wasn't easy for me to accept that I fell for it.  Since reading the postings here, I feel a lot better about myself and less angry about eckankar. 
         
        I would like to see them fall because I don't want others to go through what I did but I don't feel a need to do anything actively about it where as previously I was just itching to find a group that might sue the pants off of them.  My reading the postings has mellowed me about the whole thing and I see it as a very good thing.  I feel some what indifferent about it now.  However I might feel differently if I thought they were growing profusely. 
         
        I don't have as much time invested in eckankar as a lot of you do and I wasn't in a position to see as much as a lot of you.  Again, I am grateful for all I have learned here.  I feel this site is the most helpful thing I have found since leaving eckankar.  I did find others but I didn't learn the kinds of things I needed to know to put the whole experience in proper perspective.  After reading Ford Johnson's book, I visited his site some but I was disappointed that he seemed to be modeling his site after eckankar somewhat although he was posting stuff that appeared to be original. 
         
        So I hope you know you are providing a very valuable place for those who have left the org and need to get a grip on things and  if some one who might have an interest in eckankar, reads the postings here, it most definitely would  keep them from joining.  Do keep up the good work. 
         
        Have a good night all. 

        --- On Thu, 12/13/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 11:28 PM

         
        Hello Janice,
        Klemp will keep tightening
        the screws and dangling
        the initiation carrot. It's his
        M.O. However, he doesn't
        care about the repercussions
        because he's financially
        solid and secure with his
        book royalties and retirement
        plan. But he does still like
        the attention. Eckankar, and
        EK writing, is Klemp's hobby.

        It's interesting if you look
        at some pics of the H.I.s at
        Retreats or at their H.I. Meetings
        you might notice there are
        many elderly (70 years plus)
        H.I.s. Those age 60 and older
        probably make up 75% of
        the total number of EK Higher
        Initiates.

        Klemp, by slowing down initiations
        and placing the glass ceiling
        on the 7th has discouraged
        many H.I.s. Of course there
        are some 8ths and a few 9ths
        but these numbers are nowhere
        what they should be and don't
        reflect the dogma or goals of
        Twitchell. The frustration with
        Klemp's stinginess in doling
        out initiations via his narcissism
        has done more harm to Eckankar
        maintaining membership numbers
        than any of their PR tactics have
        been able to compensated for.

        Yet, many EKists refuse to see
        this reality and hold Klemp
        responsible. HK's ploy is telling
        them that it's all a "test" and
        to be patient and detached
        when, in truth, it's all a "trap."

        There are many 7ths who have
        had their 7th Initiation for 25
        years! Why? Klemp is playing
        with them and they've got too
        much time, energy, money, status,
        EK friends and history invested
        to leave. It's all they know. It's
        pitiful, and the longer and higher
        they are the less free they are.
        But, they are good actors and,
        like Klemp, have learned how
        to play the game... follow the
        leader.

        Prometheus

        Janice wrote:
        Thank all of you for the interesting reading. I think it would be cool if klemp keeps tightening the screws. Hopefully, it will only drive more away. So many of you had a lot more time than I did in eckankar. I really had a hard time dealing with HI attitudes from day one. Reading what you have to say explains a lot of things for me. I appreciate it very much.

        Non ekchains wrote:
        It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

        Non ;)

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
        > Letter I've read that
        > Klemp still needs to
        > update his Guidelines
        > for the H.I.s in the
        > field and chastise
        > those who are slow
        > to get with the program.
        >
        > Many long-time H.I.s
        > want the freedom
        > of Soul to be more
        > individualistic,
        > spontaneous, and
        > creative by thinking
        > they (Soul) can operate
        > outside-of-the-box,
        > thus, being channels
        > for the ECK. Klemp
        > has previously stated
        > that he's imperfect,
        > but that's not the case
        > with the ECK, correct?
        >
        > Why, then, shouldn't
        > their current (Present)
        > Inner EK Guidance be
        > followed versus that
        > of outer set-in-stone
        > ESC Guidelines printed
        > in the Past and approved
        > by a committee of imperfect
        > people on a plane ruled
        > by the KAL?
        >
        > H.I.s still haven't learned
        > that it doesn't work
        > that way in Klemp's
        > version of ECKankar.
        > It's a hierarchy where
        > everything is spelled
        > out and controlled
        > by him and his secret
        > RESA police and that
        > all field work must be
        > approved of first and
        > follow the current
        > Guidelines.
        >
        > Many inexperienced
        > EKists like the idea of
        > being told how to do
        > this or that and what
        > approved books to use
        > and what to say and
        > other details to make
        > the promotion of
        > Eckankar easier.
        >
        > But the real point the
        > ESC (Klemp) is making
        > is to have EK PR more
        > consistent and cookie
        > cutter looking/sounding
        > for the public.
        >
        > Plus, the EK Guidelines
        > are like following a
        > recipe set-in-stone
        > that disregards individual
        > or regional tastes and
        > disallows any additions
        > or omissions of other
        > ingredients, methods,
        > and/or spices.
        >
        > Klemp's foretold admonishments
        > are about H.I.s resisting
        > change. They "rock the
        > boat" out of "fear" and
        > that's "it's all about fear."
        > That "they huddle in packs"
        > and "reinforce in each other
        > a group's opposition to
        > anything new." Strange
        > that Klemp's H.I.s are
        > subject to fear since he's
        > supposed to protect them!
        >
        > However, the real 'change'
        > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
        > Klemp's nonsense and
        > heavy handed control tactics.
        > Many H.I.s, however, chose
        > the Freedom of Soul versus
        > being bound to dogma.
        > HK side-steps delivering
        > on his promises of protection
        > and never has anything
        > profound to share. And,
        > where are those Higher
        > Initiations that are, supposedly,
        > yardsticks in measuring
        > Consciousness and Spiritual
        > Growth? Klemp is playing
        > the long-con and is, thus,
        > stingy and self-serving.
        >
        > Harold goes on to say that
        > these H.I.s are "obstructions
        > on the path to God instead
        > of being stepping stones."
        > Apparently, being creative
        > and spontaneous and
        > following "Inner Nudges"
        > and/or "Signs" are not
        > permitted if it conflicts
        > with the LEM's outer,
        > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
        >
        > The LEM states that, "We
        > are here to learn." However,
        > what is it that Klemp "learns"
        > from others since he never
        > listens? He's the Top goD
        > and doesn't partake in
        > two-way dialogues with
        > those under his authority.
        >
        > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
        > and unloving as he continues
        > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
        > believe that if they sit still
        > and breathe only enough to
        > sustain life that they may
        > well dodge the lightning
        > strikes of irksome change."
        > Is that a threat? HK sounds
        > like KAL! However, by doing
        > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
        > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
        > Don't EKists still die of all
        > sorts of illnesses and situations
        > that could have be averted
        > if they had gotten proper
        > and immediate care? Sure!
        > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
        > ECKists and his veiled threats
        > are meaningless... unless
        > you've given this Black
        > Magician power over you!
        >
        > But, it seems that HK
        > has something else stuck
        > in his craw. It seems to
        > me that Klemp doesn't
        > like his 7ths just sitting
        > still and Contemplating
        > or HUing, and enjoying
        > life. But why shouldn't
        > they take it easy after
        > 40 years of doing PR
        > work for Eckankar!
        >
        > So, what does Klemp
        > the All compassionate,
        > loving, positive, and
        > empathetic icon of EK
        > conclude?
        >
        > "An H.I. who blatantly
        > refuses to adhere to
        > the ECK Guidelines
        > needs to be addressed
        > on the issues." Hmmmm.
        > I wonder what that
        > really means? Well,
        > unless you're already
        > a 7th you can kiss that
        > next initiation good-bye
        > for like 10-20 years!
        >
        > Klemp continues to say,
        > "These are big stakes!
        > Continued refusal means
        > it's time for a replacement
        > to step in. A change is
        > due. Change. isn't it
        > funny how we have come
        > full circle?" No! It's not
        > really funny. Klemp
        > abuses the concept
        > of "change" and makes
        > it into a misnomer.
        >
        > What "changes" are there
        > in Eckankar? The same
        > old things are merely
        > revisited, updated, dusted
        > off and made to seem
        > "new." It's all a facade,
        > smoke and mirrors, and
        > a game of pretend by
        > creating brightly colored
        > straws to grab at and
        > cling to when drowning.
        >
        > Too bad that EKists are
        > so deluded and needy
        > and aren't able to read
        > between the lines and
        > see the real truth behind
        > Klemp's words and methods.
        >
        > Prometheus

      • Janice Pfeiffer
        I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn t help but think where is the Love .  But I was
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn't help but think "where is the Love".  But I was willing to think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly spiritually advanced people could not be unloving.  They would say awful things about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu sings and such like they were all good buddies.  I am a loyal type person to those who are my friends and those I think well of.  I could not understand these things coming from so called well developed people.  I even think a male that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at times although I don't know that to be a fact.  Also, some of the other females would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group.  I got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very disrespectful.  I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I could not form friendships with any of them.  It was what I read that held me in eckankar.  The quality of the people in the center was terrible.  It bothered me so bad that I sought a spiritual session.  I told the adviser what I was thinking.  Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself shocking.  She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and she preferred not to be involved with their activities.  It only made me feel more confused as a fairly new person.  I would perform tasks anytime I was asked but I started avoiding the center also.  Finally, seeing the truth about the teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away.  I decided that being a long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion.  it seems they open their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no matter who it was about.  Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be what they were.  It was crazy; all of it. 
          --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

          From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
          To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 2:03 PM

           
          I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

          There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

          Russ




          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

           
          Hello Non eckchains and All,
          What has me ROFLMAO is
          that Klemp has enough of
          a problem that he used it
          in the ASK The MASTER
          section of the H.I. Letter!
          And, it was the only question!
          They had, supposedly, an
          H.I. write-in and point out
          the problem. No name given.

          I remember when I had
          to deal with some older
          H.I.s (former RESAs) in
          coordinator and director
          positions and it was
          impossible to get this
          one to follow the Guidelines
          on EK Worship Services
          (EWS). Many long-time
          H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
          Guidelines and my
          RESA turned a blind-
          eye to it all. We had
          so many former RESAs
          in volunteer positions
          that it was impossible
          to get them on the
          same page and to follow
          procedures. I think
          that some were just
          burned out and tired
          of Klemp's B.S. but
          didn't want to leave.
          Maybe they had too
          many friendships to
          lose. Plus, let's face
          it. A lot of these people
          are losers in the real
          world but are big shots
          in Eckankar. Those
          Higher Initiations are
          a big deal to the ego!

          Prometheus


          "Non" eckchains wrote:
          It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
          don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
          offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
          over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
          even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

          Non ;)

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Hello All,
          > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
          > Letter I've read that
          > Klemp still needs to
          > update his Guidelines
          > for the H.I.s in the
          > field and chastise
          > those who are slow
          > to get with the program.
          >
          > Many long-time H.I.s
          > want the freedom
          > of Soul to be more
          > individualistic,
          > spontaneous, and
          > creative by thinking
          > they (Soul) can operate
          > outside-of-the-box,
          > thus, being channels
          > for the ECK. Klemp
          > has previously stated
          > that he's imperfect,
          > but that's not the case
          > with the ECK, correct?
          >
          > Why, then, shouldn't
          > their current (Present)
          > Inner EK Guidance be
          > followed versus that
          > of outer set-in-stone
          > ESC Guidelines printed
          > in the Past and approved
          > by a committee of imperfect
          > people on a plane ruled
          > by the KAL?
          >
          > H.I.s still haven't learned
          > that freedom of expression
          > doesn't work in Klemp's
          > version of ECKankar.
          > It's a hierarchy where
          > everything is spelled
          > out and controlled
          > by him and his secret
          > RESA police, plus, all
          > field work must be
          > approved via the
          > current Guidelines.
          >
          > Many inexperienced
          > EKists like the idea of
          > being told how to do
          > this or that and what
          > approved books to use
          > and what to say and
          > other details to make
          > the promotion of
          > Eckankar easier.
          >
          > But the real point the
          > ESC (Klemp) is making
          > is to have EK PR more
          > consistent and cookie
          > cutter looking/sounding
          > for the public.
          >
          > Plus, the EK Guidelines
          > are like following a
          > recipe set-in-stone
          > that disregards individual
          > or regional tastes and
          > disallows any additions
          > or omissions of other
          > ingredients, methods,
          > and/or spices.
          >
          > Klemp's foretold admonishments
          > are about H.I.s resisting
          > change. He says they "rock
          > the boat" out of "fear" and
          > that "it's all about fear."
          > Also, "they huddle in packs"
          > and "reinforce in each other
          > a group's opposition to
          > anything new." Strange
          > that Klemp's H.I.s are
          > subject to fear since he's
          > supposed to protect them!
          > This is how the KAL works.
          > Klemp is his agent.
          >
          > However, the real 'change'
          > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
          > Klemp's nonsense and
          > heavy handed control tactics.
          > Many H.I.s, however, chose
          > the Freedom of Soul versus
          > being bound to dogma.
          > HK side-steps delivering
          > on his promises of protection
          > and never has anything
          > profound to share. And,
          > where are those Higher
          > Initiations that are, supposedly,
          > yardsticks in measuring
          > Consciousness and Spiritual
          > Growth? Klemp is playing
          > the long-con and is, thus,
          > stingy and self-serving.
          >
          > Harold goes on to say that
          > these H.I.s are "obstructions
          > on the path to God instead
          > of being stepping stones."
          > Apparently, being creative
          > and spontaneous and
          > following "Inner Nudges"
          > and/or "Signs" are not
          > permitted if it conflicts
          > with the LEM's outer,
          > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
          >
          > The LEM states that, "We
          > are here to learn." However,
          > what is it that Klemp "learns"
          > from others since he never
          > listens? He's the Top goD
          > and doesn't partake in
          > two-way dialogues with
          > those under his authority.
          >
          > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
          > and unloving as he continues
          > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
          > believe that if they sit still
          > and breathe only enough to
          > sustain life that they may
          > well dodge the lightning
          > strikes of irksome change."
          > Is that a threat? HK sounds
          > like KAL! However, by doing
          > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
          > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
          > Don't EKists still die of all
          > sorts of illnesses and situations
          > that could have be averted
          > if they had gotten proper
          > and immediate care? Sure!
          > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
          > ECKists and his veiled threats
          > are meaningless... unless
          > you've given this Black
          > Magician power over you!
          >
          > But, it seems that HK
          > has something else stuck
          > in his craw. It seems to
          > me that Klemp doesn't
          > like his 7ths just sitting
          > still and Contemplating
          > or HUing, and enjoying
          > life. But why shouldn't
          > they take it easy after
          > 40 years of doing PR
          > work for Eckankar!
          >
          > So, what does Klemp
          > the All compassionate,
          > loving, positive, and
          > empathetic icon of EK
          > conclude?
          >
          > "An H.I. who blatantly
          > refuses to adhere to
          > the ECK Guidelines
          > needs to be addressed
          > on the issues." Hmmmm.
          > I wonder what that
          > really means? Well,
          > unless you're already
          > a 7th you can kiss that
          > next initiation good-bye
          > for like 10-20 years!
          >
          > Klemp continues to say,
          > "These are big stakes!
          > Continued refusal means
          > it's time for a replacement
          > to step in. A change is
          > due. Change. isn't it
          > funny how we have come
          > full circle?" No! It's not
          > really funny. Klemp
          > abuses the concept
          > of "change" and makes
          > it into a misnomer.
          >
          > What "changes" are there
          > in Eckankar? The same
          > old things are merely
          > revisited, updated, dusted
          > off and made to seem
          > "new." It's all a facade,
          > smoke and mirrors, and
          > a game of pretend by
          > creating brightly colored
          > straws to grab at and
          > cling to when drowning.
          >
          > Too bad that EKists are
          > so deluded and needy
          > and aren't able to read
          > between the lines and
          > see the real truth behind
          > Klemp's words and methods.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >



        • Russ Rodnick
          You ve seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a very
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love. 

            Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers. 

            Good to be away from it. 


            From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 10:42 PM
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

             
            I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn't help but think "where is the Love".  But I was willing to think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly spiritually advanced people could not be unloving.  They would say awful things about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu sings and such like they were all good buddies.  I am a loyal type person to those who are my friends and those I think well of.  I could not understand these things coming from so called well developed people.  I even think a male that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at times although I don't know that to be a fact.  Also, some of the other females would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group.  I got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very disrespectful.  I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I could not form friendships with any of them.  It was what I read that held me in eckankar.  The quality of the people in the center was terrible.  It bothered me so bad that I sought a spiritual session.  I told the adviser what I was thinking.  Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself shocking.  She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and she preferred not to be involved with their activities.  It only made me feel more confused as a fairly new person.  I would perform tasks anytime I was asked but I started avoiding the center also.  Finally, seeing the truth about the teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away.  I decided that being a long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion.  it seems they open their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no matter who it was about.  Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be what they were.  It was crazy; all of it. 
            --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

            From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
            To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 2:03 PM

             
            I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

            There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

            Russ




            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

             
            Hello Non eckchains and All,
            What has me ROFLMAO is
            that Klemp has enough of
            a problem that he used it
            in the ASK The MASTER
            section of the H.I. Letter!
            And, it was the only question!
            They had, supposedly, an
            H.I. write-in and point out
            the problem. No name given.

            I remember when I had
            to deal with some older
            H.I.s (former RESAs) in
            coordinator and director
            positions and it was
            impossible to get this
            one to follow the Guidelines
            on EK Worship Services
            (EWS). Many long-time
            H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
            Guidelines and my
            RESA turned a blind-
            eye to it all. We had
            so many former RESAs
            in volunteer positions
            that it was impossible
            to get them on the
            same page and to follow
            procedures. I think
            that some were just
            burned out and tired
            of Klemp's B.S. but
            didn't want to leave.
            Maybe they had too
            many friendships to
            lose. Plus, let's face
            it. A lot of these people
            are losers in the real
            world but are big shots
            in Eckankar. Those
            Higher Initiations are
            a big deal to the ego!

            Prometheus


            "Non" eckchains wrote:
            It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
            don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
            offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
            over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
            even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

            Non ;)

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello All,
            > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
            > Letter I've read that
            > Klemp still needs to
            > update his Guidelines
            > for the H.I.s in the
            > field and chastise
            > those who are slow
            > to get with the program.
            >
            > Many long-time H.I.s
            > want the freedom
            > of Soul to be more
            > individualistic,
            > spontaneous, and
            > creative by thinking
            > they (Soul) can operate
            > outside-of-the-box,
            > thus, being channels
            > for the ECK. Klemp
            > has previously stated
            > that he's imperfect,
            > but that's not the case
            > with the ECK, correct?
            >
            > Why, then, shouldn't
            > their current (Present)
            > Inner EK Guidance be
            > followed versus that
            > of outer set-in-stone
            > ESC Guidelines printed
            > in the Past and approved
            > by a committee of imperfect
            > people on a plane ruled
            > by the KAL?
            >
            > H.I.s still haven't learned
            > that freedom of expression
            > doesn't work in Klemp's
            > version of ECKankar.
            > It's a hierarchy where
            > everything is spelled
            > out and controlled
            > by him and his secret
            > RESA police, plus, all
            > field work must be
            > approved via the
            > current Guidelines.
            >
            > Many inexperienced
            > EKists like the idea of
            > being told how to do
            > this or that and what
            > approved books to use
            > and what to say and
            > other details to make
            > the promotion of
            > Eckankar easier.
            >
            > But the real point the
            > ESC (Klemp) is making
            > is to have EK PR more
            > consistent and cookie
            > cutter looking/sounding
            > for the public.
            >
            > Plus, the EK Guidelines
            > are like following a
            > recipe set-in-stone
            > that disregards individual
            > or regional tastes and
            > disallows any additions
            > or omissions of other
            > ingredients, methods,
            > and/or spices.
            >
            > Klemp's foretold admonishments
            > are about H.I.s resisting
            > change. He says they "rock
            > the boat" out of "fear" and
            > that "it's all about fear."
            > Also, "they huddle in packs"
            > and "reinforce in each other
            > a group's opposition to
            > anything new." Strange
            > that Klemp's H.I.s are
            > subject to fear since he's
            > supposed to protect them!
            > This is how the KAL works.
            > Klemp is his agent.
            >
            > However, the real 'change'
            > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
            > Klemp's nonsense and
            > heavy handed control tactics.
            > Many H.I.s, however, chose
            > the Freedom of Soul versus
            > being bound to dogma.
            > HK side-steps delivering
            > on his promises of protection
            > and never has anything
            > profound to share. And,
            > where are those Higher
            > Initiations that are, supposedly,
            > yardsticks in measuring
            > Consciousness and Spiritual
            > Growth? Klemp is playing
            > the long-con and is, thus,
            > stingy and self-serving.
            >
            > Harold goes on to say that
            > these H.I.s are "obstructions
            > on the path to God instead
            > of being stepping stones."
            > Apparently, being creative
            > and spontaneous and
            > following "Inner Nudges"
            > and/or "Signs" are not
            > permitted if it conflicts
            > with the LEM's outer,
            > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
            >
            > The LEM states that, "We
            > are here to learn." However,
            > what is it that Klemp "learns"
            > from others since he never
            > listens? He's the Top goD
            > and doesn't partake in
            > two-way dialogues with
            > those under his authority.
            >
            > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
            > and unloving as he continues
            > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
            > believe that if they sit still
            > and breathe only enough to
            > sustain life that they may
            > well dodge the lightning
            > strikes of irksome change."
            > Is that a threat? HK sounds
            > like KAL! However, by doing
            > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
            > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
            > Don't EKists still die of all
            > sorts of illnesses and situations
            > that could have be averted
            > if they had gotten proper
            > and immediate care? Sure!
            > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
            > ECKists and his veiled threats
            > are meaningless... unless
            > you've given this Black
            > Magician power over you!
            >
            > But, it seems that HK
            > has something else stuck
            > in his craw. It seems to
            > me that Klemp doesn't
            > like his 7ths just sitting
            > still and Contemplating
            > or HUing, and enjoying
            > life. But why shouldn't
            > they take it easy after
            > 40 years of doing PR
            > work for Eckankar!
            >
            > So, what does Klemp
            > the All compassionate,
            > loving, positive, and
            > empathetic icon of EK
            > conclude?
            >
            > "An H.I. who blatantly
            > refuses to adhere to
            > the ECK Guidelines
            > needs to be addressed
            > on the issues." Hmmmm.
            > I wonder what that
            > really means? Well,
            > unless you're already
            > a 7th you can kiss that
            > next initiation good-bye
            > for like 10-20 years!
            >
            > Klemp continues to say,
            > "These are big stakes!
            > Continued refusal means
            > it's time for a replacement
            > to step in. A change is
            > due. Change. isn't it
            > funny how we have come
            > full circle?" No! It's not
            > really funny. Klemp
            > abuses the concept
            > of "change" and makes
            > it into a misnomer.
            >
            > What "changes" are there
            > in Eckankar? The same
            > old things are merely
            > revisited, updated, dusted
            > off and made to seem
            > "new." It's all a facade,
            > smoke and mirrors, and
            > a game of pretend by
            > creating brightly colored
            > straws to grab at and
            > cling to when drowning.
            >
            > Too bad that EKists are
            > so deluded and needy
            > and aren't able to read
            > between the lines and
            > see the real truth behind
            > Klemp's words and methods.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >





          • prometheus_973
            Hello Janice, Russ and All, Yes, some EK Volunteers in Satsang Society settler and explorer positions at the EK Centers would trip over their egos and go
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Janice, Russ and All,
              Yes, some EK Volunteers
              in Satsang Society "settler"
              and "explorer" positions at
              the EK Centers would trip
              over their egos and go on
              power trips. Many seemed
              cliquish and would huddle
              together. Then, again, some
              weren't all that friendly or
              were very introverted and
              shy. I'd encourage everyone,
              including the clerics, to
              greet and talk to all of the
              new or seldom seen faces
              that showed up. Many
              only saw other Eckists at
              the monthly EWS and this
              was a time to catch up on
              things. This is why I'd
              suggest going to lunch
              after the EWS and socializing.

              Many Eckists are Introverts.
              True? I think so!

              Klemp's volunteer duties
              and requirements for Eckists
              means that they must take
              on extroverted roles in
              order to become H.I.s.
              Eckists must force themselves,
              against their innate natures,
              to become extroverted and
              egocentric. These leadership
              requirements create conflict,
              stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
              Thus, this imbalance that
              Klemp has created and
              reenforces aids him in
              the brainwashing of his
              flock to have programmed
              religious faith, beliefs, and
              mystical experiences. But,
              this has its toll and is why
              many long-time H.I.s choose
              to reject Klemp's Guidelines
              and his anal control tactics.

              Sometimes, at special
              harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
              and mini retreats the
              long-time H.I.s, former
              RESAs, the RESA, and Board
              members would gather
              around and gossip about
              those absent or present.
              Only, it wasn't seen as
              gossip but rationalized
              as more of an evaluative/
              investigative discussion
              for possible initiation
              recommendation or for
              a Satsang position appointment.
              They wanted to know,
              from sources who knew
              them, if there were problems
              with these EKists and, if
              so, what the specific details
              were. It was all ego driven
              and subjective because we
              were all volunteers and
              had family and personal
              lives too. But, it did weed
              out those who weren't as
              well indoctrinated....
              supposedly. But, HK's eck
              crap (busy work) was pretty
              much always a waste of
              time so, in the long run,
              enthusiasm was probably
              more important than acting
              the part. The Satsang positions
              and duties kept people
              busy, gave them a purpose
              and made them feel good,
              although, very stressed out.

              The Initiation game has made
              Eckists struggle with denying
              how much more they want of
              this magical, imaginary, elixir.

              Janice, that was crazy, too,
              that an ESA told you that the
              people at the EK Center were
              crazy. That just isn't done
              and is part of HK's agenda
              of Silence and retraining.

              There's that old Buddha quote
              that Eckists sing and talk about
              (but don't attribute to Buddha)
              and this is supposed to keep
              ECKists quiet or else they will
              sometimes get reported:
              "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
              this I ask myself before I
              speak my mind." Interestingly,
              following this criteria is very
              subjective and could or would
              Not, necessarily, stifle most
              conservations.

              "It's a beautiful day!" This
              may be "true" for you and
              for most people but not
              not for all people. And, is
              it "necessary" to exclaim
              this? And, is it "kind" to say
              this within earshot of people
              who aren't feeling well or
              who can't enjoy the day?
              Yet, it's used by Klemp
              to keep the critics of his
              policies and of his H.I.s
              to a minimum.

              Prometheus


              Russ Rodnick wrote:
              You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
              considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
              very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
              over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
              by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
              to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
              very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
              rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
              handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.

              Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
              communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.

              Good to be away from it.

              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

              I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
              beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
              think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
              spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
              about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
              sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
              those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
              these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
              that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
              times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
              would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
              got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
              her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
              thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
              disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
              could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
              eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
              so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
              thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
              shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
              she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
              more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
              but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
              teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
              long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
              their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
              matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
              what they were. It was crazy; all of it.

              Russ wrote:
              I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
              fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
              up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
              made him so popular in the eck community.

              There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
              self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
              present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
              things.

              Russ



              prometheus wrote:
              Hello Non eckchains and All,
              What has me ROFLMAO is
              that Klemp has enough of
              a problem that he used it
              in the ASK The MASTER
              section of the H.I. Letter!
              And, it was the only question!
              They had, supposedly, an
              H.I. write-in and point out
              the problem. No name given.

              I remember when I had
              to deal with some older
              H.I.s (former RESAs) in
              coordinator and director
              positions and it was
              impossible to get this
              one to follow the Guidelines
              on EK Worship Services
              (EWS). Many long-time
              H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
              Guidelines and my
              RESA turned a blind-
              eye to it all. We had
              so many former RESAs
              in volunteer positions
              that it was impossible
              to get them on the
              same page and to follow
              procedures. I think
              that some were just
              burned out and tired
              of Klemp's B.S. but
              didn't want to leave.
              Maybe they had too
              many friendships to
              lose. Plus, let's face
              it. A lot of these people
              are losers in the real
              world but are big shots
              in Eckankar. Those
              Higher Initiations are
              a big deal to the ego!

              Prometheus


              "Non" eckchains wrote:
              It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
              don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
              offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
              over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
              even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

              Non ;)

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello All,
              > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
              > Letter I've read that
              > Klemp still needs to
              > update his Guidelines
              > for the H.I.s in the
              > field and chastise
              > those who are slow
              > to get with the program.
              >
              > Many long-time H.I.s
              > want the freedom
              > of Soul to be more
              > individualistic,
              > spontaneous, and
              > creative by thinking
              > they (Soul) can operate
              > outside-of-the-box,
              > thus, being channels
              > for the ECK. Klemp
              > has previously stated
              > that he's imperfect,
              > but that's not the case
              > with the ECK, correct?
              >
              > Why, then, shouldn't
              > their current (Present)
              > Inner EK Guidance be
              > followed versus that
              > of outer set-in-stone
              > ESC Guidelines printed
              > in the Past and approved
              > by a committee of imperfect
              > people on a plane ruled
              > by the KAL?
              >
              > H.I.s still haven't learned
              > that freedom of expression
              > doesn't work in Klemp's
              > version of ECKankar.
              > It's a hierarchy where
              > everything is spelled
              > out and controlled
              > by him and his secret
              > RESA police, plus, all
              > field work must be
              > approved via the
              > current Guidelines.
              >
              > Many inexperienced
              > EKists like the idea of
              > being told how to do
              > this or that and what
              > approved books to use
              > and what to say and
              > other details to make
              > the promotion of
              > Eckankar easier.
              >
              > But the real point the
              > ESC (Klemp) is making
              > is to have EK PR more
              > consistent and cookie
              > cutter looking/sounding
              > for the public.
              >
              > Plus, the EK Guidelines
              > are like following a
              > recipe set-in-stone
              > that disregards individual
              > or regional tastes and
              > disallows any additions
              > or omissions of other
              > ingredients, methods,
              > and/or spices.
              >
              > Klemp's foretold admonishments
              > are about H.I.s resisting
              > change. He says they "rock
              > the boat" out of "fear" and
              > that "it's all about fear."
              > Also, "they huddle in packs"
              > and "reinforce in each other
              > a group's opposition to
              > anything new." Strange
              > that Klemp's H.I.s are
              > subject to fear since he's
              > supposed to protect them!
              > This is how the KAL works.
              > Klemp is his agent.
              >
              > However, the real 'change'
              > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
              > Klemp's nonsense and
              > heavy handed control tactics.
              > Many H.I.s, however, chose
              > the Freedom of Soul versus
              > being bound to dogma.
              > HK side-steps delivering
              > on his promises of protection
              > and never has anything
              > profound to share. And,
              > where are those Higher
              > Initiations that are, supposedly,
              > yardsticks in measuring
              > Consciousness and Spiritual
              > Growth? Klemp is playing
              > the long-con and is, thus,
              > stingy and self-serving.
              >
              > Harold goes on to say that
              > these H.I.s are "obstructions
              > on the path to God instead
              > of being stepping stones."
              > Apparently, being creative
              > and spontaneous and
              > following "Inner Nudges"
              > and/or "Signs" are not
              > permitted if it conflicts
              > with the LEM's outer,
              > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
              >
              > The LEM states that, "We
              > are here to learn." However,
              > what is it that Klemp "learns"
              > from others since he never
              > listens? He's the Top goD
              > and doesn't partake in
              > two-way dialogues with
              > those under his authority.
              >
              > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
              > and unloving as he continues
              > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
              > believe that if they sit still
              > and breathe only enough to
              > sustain life that they may
              > well dodge the lightning
              > strikes of irksome change."
              > Is that a threat? HK sounds
              > like KAL! However, by doing
              > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
              > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
              > Don't EKists still die of all
              > sorts of illnesses and situations
              > that could have be averted
              > if they had gotten proper
              > and immediate care? Sure!
              > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
              > ECKists and his veiled threats
              > are meaningless... unless
              > you've given this Black
              > Magician power over you!
              >
              > But, it seems that HK
              > has something else stuck
              > in his craw. It seems to
              > me that Klemp doesn't
              > like his 7ths just sitting
              > still and Contemplating
              > or HUing, and enjoying
              > life. But why shouldn't
              > they take it easy after
              > 40 years of doing PR
              > work for Eckankar!
              >
              > So, what does Klemp
              > the All compassionate,
              > loving, positive, and
              > empathetic icon of EK
              > conclude?
              >
              > "An H.I. who blatantly
              > refuses to adhere to
              > the ECK Guidelines
              > needs to be addressed
              > on the issues." Hmmmm.
              > I wonder what that
              > really means? Well,
              > unless you're already
              > a 7th you can kiss that
              > next initiation good-bye
              > for like 10-20 years!
              >
              > Klemp continues to say,
              > "These are big stakes!
              > Continued refusal means
              > it's time for a replacement
              > to step in. A change is
              > due. Change. isn't it
              > funny how we have come
              > full circle?" No! It's not
              > really funny. Klemp
              > abuses the concept
              > of "change" and makes
              > it into a misnomer.
              >
              > What "changes" are there
              > in Eckankar? The same
              > old things are merely
              > revisited, updated, dusted
              > off and made to seem
              > "new." It's all a facade,
              > smoke and mirrors, and
              > a game of pretend by
              > creating brightly colored
              > straws to grab at and
              > cling to when drowning.
              >
              > Too bad that EKists are
              > so deluded and needy
              > and aren't able to read
              > between the lines and
              > see the real truth behind
              > Klemp's words and methods.
              >
              > Prometheus
            • Janice Pfeiffer
              I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off.  So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
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                I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off.  So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar.  I can't see it happening.  The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people. 
                 
                Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get.  Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations. 
                 
                 I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was.  I just broke contact.  I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me.  I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all. 
                 
                Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold.  It went in the trash.  This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone.  I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even. 
                 
                How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else.  From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder.  Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.  Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org.  That is what is so sick about eckankar.  You either become a sheep or a wolf.  I wouldn't be either. 
                 
                That is why I could not adjust to eckankar.  Seeing it was a freeing experience for me.  It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings.  I threw away all eckankar material.  I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others.  Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar.  Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top.  I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did. 
                 
                The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving.  I feel pity for them.  A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time.  I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies. 
                 
                Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth.  Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor.  I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me.  I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being.  Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth.  In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads. 
                 
                I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual.  No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way.  Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate.  With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this. 
                 
                 I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much.  But maybe it  has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing  their brand of spiritual bondage.  And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord.  Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime. 
                 
                I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones.  Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar.  I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will. 
                 
                Eckankar can damn me all it will.  It has no hold on me.  It's even funny that they would do that.  They make a good force for their kal.  Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing.  Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned.  It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things. 
                 
                Thank you all for being part of my journey.  You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself.  Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar.  That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master.  I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were.  Well, now you are. 
                 
                Blessings to all of you.   
                 
                --- On Fri, 12/14/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Friday, December 14, 2012, 2:49 PM

                 
                You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love. 

                Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers. 

                Good to be away from it. 


                From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 10:42 PM
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                 
                I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn't help but think "where is the Love".  But I was willing to think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly spiritually advanced people could not be unloving.  They would say awful things about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu sings and such like they were all good buddies.  I am a loyal type person to those who are my friends and those I think well of.  I could not understand these things coming from so called well developed people.  I even think a male that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at times although I don't know that to be a fact.  Also, some of the other females would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group.  I got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very disrespectful.  I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I could not form friendships with any of them.  It was what I read that held me in eckankar.  The quality of the people in the center was terrible.  It bothered me so bad that I sought a spiritual session.  I told the adviser what I was thinking.  Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself shocking.  She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and she preferred not to be involved with their activities.  It only made me feel more confused as a fairly new person.  I would perform tasks anytime I was asked but I started avoiding the center also.  Finally, seeing the truth about the teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away.  I decided that being a long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion.  it seems they open their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no matter who it was about.  Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be what they were.  It was crazy; all of it. 
                --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 2:03 PM

                 
                I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

                There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

                Russ




                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                 
                Hello Non eckchains and All,
                What has me ROFLMAO is
                that Klemp has enough of
                a problem that he used it
                in the ASK The MASTER
                section of the H.I. Letter!
                And, it was the only question!
                They had, supposedly, an
                H.I. write-in and point out
                the problem. No name given.

                I remember when I had
                to deal with some older
                H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                coordinator and director
                positions and it was
                impossible to get this
                one to follow the Guidelines
                on EK Worship Services
                (EWS). Many long-time
                H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                Guidelines and my
                RESA turned a blind-
                eye to it all. We had
                so many former RESAs
                in volunteer positions
                that it was impossible
                to get them on the
                same page and to follow
                procedures. I think
                that some were just
                burned out and tired
                of Klemp's B.S. but
                didn't want to leave.
                Maybe they had too
                many friendships to
                lose. Plus, let's face
                it. A lot of these people
                are losers in the real
                world but are big shots
                in Eckankar. Those
                Higher Initiations are
                a big deal to the ego!

                Prometheus


                "Non" eckchains wrote:
                It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                Non ;)

                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello All,
                > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                > Letter I've read that
                > Klemp still needs to
                > update his Guidelines
                > for the H.I.s in the
                > field and chastise
                > those who are slow
                > to get with the program.
                >
                > Many long-time H.I.s
                > want the freedom
                > of Soul to be more
                > individualistic,
                > spontaneous, and
                > creative by thinking
                > they (Soul) can operate
                > outside-of-the-box,
                > thus, being channels
                > for the ECK. Klemp
                > has previously stated
                > that he's imperfect,
                > but that's not the case
                > with the ECK, correct?
                >
                > Why, then, shouldn't
                > their current (Present)
                > Inner EK Guidance be
                > followed versus that
                > of outer set-in-stone
                > ESC Guidelines printed
                > in the Past and approved
                > by a committee of imperfect
                > people on a plane ruled
                > by the KAL?
                >
                > H.I.s still haven't learned
                > that freedom of expression
                > doesn't work in Klemp's
                > version of ECKankar.
                > It's a hierarchy where
                > everything is spelled
                > out and controlled
                > by him and his secret
                > RESA police, plus, all
                > field work must be
                > approved via the
                > current Guidelines.
                >
                > Many inexperienced
                > EKists like the idea of
                > being told how to do
                > this or that and what
                > approved books to use
                > and what to say and
                > other details to make
                > the promotion of
                > Eckankar easier.
                >
                > But the real point the
                > ESC (Klemp) is making
                > is to have EK PR more
                > consistent and cookie
                > cutter looking/sounding
                > for the public.
                >
                > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                > are like following a
                > recipe set-in-stone
                > that disregards individual
                > or regional tastes and
                > disallows any additions
                > or omissions of other
                > ingredients, methods,
                > and/or spices.
                >
                > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                > are about H.I.s resisting
                > change. He says they "rock
                > the boat" out of "fear" and
                > that "it's all about fear."
                > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                > and "reinforce in each other
                > a group's opposition to
                > anything new." Strange
                > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                > subject to fear since he's
                > supposed to protect them!
                > This is how the KAL works.
                > Klemp is his agent.
                >
                > However, the real 'change'
                > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                > Klemp's nonsense and
                > heavy handed control tactics.
                > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                > the Freedom of Soul versus
                > being bound to dogma.
                > HK side-steps delivering
                > on his promises of protection
                > and never has anything
                > profound to share. And,
                > where are those Higher
                > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                > yardsticks in measuring
                > Consciousness and Spiritual
                > Growth? Klemp is playing
                > the long-con and is, thus,
                > stingy and self-serving.
                >
                > Harold goes on to say that
                > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                > on the path to God instead
                > of being stepping stones."
                > Apparently, being creative
                > and spontaneous and
                > following "Inner Nudges"
                > and/or "Signs" are not
                > permitted if it conflicts
                > with the LEM's outer,
                > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                >
                > The LEM states that, "We
                > are here to learn." However,
                > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                > from others since he never
                > listens? He's the Top goD
                > and doesn't partake in
                > two-way dialogues with
                > those under his authority.
                >
                > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                > and unloving as he continues
                > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                > believe that if they sit still
                > and breathe only enough to
                > sustain life that they may
                > well dodge the lightning
                > strikes of irksome change."
                > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                > like KAL! However, by doing
                > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                > Don't EKists still die of all
                > sorts of illnesses and situations
                > that could have be averted
                > if they had gotten proper
                > and immediate care? Sure!
                > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                > ECKists and his veiled threats
                > are meaningless... unless
                > you've given this Black
                > Magician power over you!
                >
                > But, it seems that HK
                > has something else stuck
                > in his craw. It seems to
                > me that Klemp doesn't
                > like his 7ths just sitting
                > still and Contemplating
                > or HUing, and enjoying
                > life. But why shouldn't
                > they take it easy after
                > 40 years of doing PR
                > work for Eckankar!
                >
                > So, what does Klemp
                > the All compassionate,
                > loving, positive, and
                > empathetic icon of EK
                > conclude?
                >
                > "An H.I. who blatantly
                > refuses to adhere to
                > the ECK Guidelines
                > needs to be addressed
                > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                > I wonder what that
                > really means? Well,
                > unless you're already
                > a 7th you can kiss that
                > next initiation good-bye
                > for like 10-20 years!
                >
                > Klemp continues to say,
                > "These are big stakes!
                > Continued refusal means
                > it's time for a replacement
                > to step in. A change is
                > due. Change. isn't it
                > funny how we have come
                > full circle?" No! It's not
                > really funny. Klemp
                > abuses the concept
                > of "change" and makes
                > it into a misnomer.
                >
                > What "changes" are there
                > in Eckankar? The same
                > old things are merely
                > revisited, updated, dusted
                > off and made to seem
                > "new." It's all a facade,
                > smoke and mirrors, and
                > a game of pretend by
                > creating brightly colored
                > straws to grab at and
                > cling to when drowning.
                >
                > Too bad that EKists are
                > so deluded and needy
                > and aren't able to read
                > between the lines and
                > see the real truth behind
                > Klemp's words and methods.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >





              • prometheus_973
                Hello Janice, Thanks for the interesting reply and the sharing of insights and experiences. I really really enjoyed it all. The reason why someone knew you
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
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                  Hello Janice,
                  Thanks for the interesting
                  reply and the sharing of
                  insights and experiences.
                  I really really enjoyed it
                  all.

                  The reason why someone
                  knew you received your
                  pink slip is because the
                  RESA gets an initiation
                  eligibility list where he/
                  she will mark yea/nay
                  for an initiation. When
                  the yea is checked the
                  ESC (membership services)
                  will more than likely issue
                  the pink slip for the initiation.
                  Or, the file has been red
                  flagged for some reason.
                  Klemp, I'm told, will put
                  a temporary hold on higher
                  initiations. Maybe it's due
                  to pending requirements
                  for training/retraining.
                  The ESC will notify the
                  RESA when the pink slip
                  is sent.

                  Most Eckists don't know
                  how the initiation process
                  works.

                  The RESA has a membership
                  list generated by the ESC
                  for all those EKists in their
                  region and it will show
                  initiation level, one's status
                  and date of membership
                  among other info. If a
                  new person sends in a
                  membership form to the
                  ESC from anywhere in
                  the RESA's region the RESA
                  will be notified of who
                  they are and their mailing
                  address.

                  I was glad Ford Johnson
                  wrote his book and that
                  I was told about it by an
                  Eckist who is still an H.I.
                  The Irony is that he was
                  doing Public Information
                  and was quite the gossip.

                  I always was the skeptic
                  and had trouble with a lot
                  of what I saw and experienced
                  around H.I.s.

                  When I was a lower initiate
                  I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                  spiritual nor anywhere close
                  to being enlightened. There
                  were too many contradictions,
                  restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                  Once you're an EK member
                  the next step is to get you
                  to become a volunteer on
                  HK's sales team.

                  I always wondered how
                  was there an "inner" connection
                  to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                  were still smoking and
                  drinking alcohol, but
                  getting promoted with
                  more initiations? I knew
                  of two 5ths who smoked
                  and drank and got pink
                  slips for the 6th. It's clear
                  that Klemp knows nothing
                  unless informed via phone
                  or snailmail... email now!

                  Yes, Janice, we were the
                  ones awakened to the Truth
                  while all of those "Higher"
                  (pretend) Initiates are still
                  sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                  become very skilled at
                  regurgitating the PR and
                  at facilitating and public
                  speaking. But, H.I.s have
                  no idea of what it's like
                  to be Free thinkers and
                  free of religion and of the
                  EK Hierarchy. They think
                  that their "spiritual experiences"
                  are unique when these
                  are common and similar
                  experiences that all religious
                  seekers have had... even
                  Christians!

                  Yes, we needed Eckankar
                  in order to fill a void and
                  to learn some important
                  lessons about ourselves
                  and about religion in general.

                  IMO, Those who left
                  Eckankar but still have
                  a need for religion, haven't
                  really learned that they
                  will never find answers
                  via a group consciousness
                  or via a guru/master.
                  True, it is nice to know
                  people of like mind and
                  to share things, but this
                  can be a bad thing as well
                  if we become too attached
                  or lazy and want to play
                  follow the leader again.

                  It all comes down to one's
                  private and personal experiences
                  and inner revelations with
                  oneSelf and with whatever
                  catalyst of "divine" creation.

                  Prometheus



                  Janice wrote:
                  I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                  Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                  I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                  Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                  How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                  That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                  The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                  Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                  I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                  I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                  I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                  Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                  Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                  Blessings to all of you.


                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                  > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                  > in Satsang Society "settler"
                  > and "explorer" positions at
                  > the EK Centers would trip
                  > over their egos and go on
                  > power trips. Many seemed
                  > cliquish and would huddle
                  > together. Then, again, some
                  > weren't all that friendly or
                  > were very introverted and
                  > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                  > including the clerics, to
                  > greet and talk to all of the
                  > new or seldom seen faces
                  > that showed up. Many
                  > only saw other Eckists at
                  > the monthly EWS and this
                  > was a time to catch up on
                  > things. This is why I'd
                  > suggest going to lunch
                  > after the EWS and socializing.
                  >
                  > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                  > True? I think so!
                  >
                  > Klemp's volunteer duties
                  > and requirements for Eckists
                  > means that they must take
                  > on extroverted roles in
                  > order to become H.I.s.
                  > Eckists must force themselves,
                  > against their innate natures,
                  > to become extroverted and
                  > egocentric. These leadership
                  > requirements create conflict,
                  > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                  > Thus, this imbalance that
                  > Klemp has created and
                  > reenforces aids him in
                  > the brainwashing of his
                  > flock to have programmed
                  > religious faith, beliefs, and
                  > mystical experiences. But,
                  > this has its toll and is why
                  > many long-time H.I.s choose
                  > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                  > and his anal control tactics.
                  >
                  > Sometimes, at special
                  > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                  > and mini retreats the
                  > long-time H.I.s, former
                  > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                  > members would gather
                  > around and gossip about
                  > those absent or present.
                  > Only, it wasn't seen as
                  > gossip but rationalized
                  > as more of an evaluative/
                  > investigative discussion
                  > for possible initiation
                  > recommendation or for
                  > a Satsang position appointment.
                  > They wanted to know,
                  > from sources who knew
                  > them, if there were problems
                  > with these EKists and, if
                  > so, what the specific details
                  > were. It was all ego driven
                  > and subjective because we
                  > were all volunteers and
                  > had family and personal
                  > lives too. But, it did weed
                  > out those who weren't as
                  > well indoctrinated....
                  > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                  > crap (busy work) was pretty
                  > much always a waste of
                  > time so, in the long run,
                  > enthusiasm was probably
                  > more important than acting
                  > the part. The Satsang positions
                  > and duties kept people
                  > busy, gave them a purpose
                  > and made them feel good,
                  > although, very stressed out.
                  >
                  > The Initiation game has made
                  > Eckists struggle with denying
                  > how much more they want of
                  > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                  >
                  > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                  > that an ESA told you that the
                  > people at the EK Center were
                  > crazy. That just isn't done
                  > and is part of HK's agenda
                  > of Silence and retraining.
                  >
                  > There's that old Buddha quote
                  > that Eckists sing and talk about
                  > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                  > and this is supposed to keep
                  > ECKists quiet or else they will
                  > sometimes get reported:
                  > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                  > this I ask myself before I
                  > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                  > following this criteria is very
                  > subjective and could or would
                  > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                  > conservations.
                  >
                  > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                  > may be "true" for you and
                  > for most people but not
                  > not for all people. And, is
                  > it "necessary" to exclaim
                  > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                  > this within earshot of people
                  > who aren't feeling well or
                  > who can't enjoy the day?
                  > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                  > to keep the critics of his
                  > policies and of his H.I.s
                  > to a minimum.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                  > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                  > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                  > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                  > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                  > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                  > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                  > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                  > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                  > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                  >
                  > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                  > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                  >
                  > Good to be away from it.
                  >
                  > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                  >
                  > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                  > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                  > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                  > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                  > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                  > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                  > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                  > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                  > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                  > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                  > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                  > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                  > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                  > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                  > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                  > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                  > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                  > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                  > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                  > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                  > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                  > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                  > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                  > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                  > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                  > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                  > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                  > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                  >
                  > Russ wrote:
                  > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                  > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                  > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                  > made him so popular in the eck community.
                  >
                  > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                  > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                  > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                  > things.
                  >
                  > Russ
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                  > What has me ROFLMAO is
                  > that Klemp has enough of
                  > a problem that he used it
                  > in the ASK The MASTER
                  > section of the H.I. Letter!
                  > And, it was the only question!
                  > They had, supposedly, an
                  > H.I. write-in and point out
                  > the problem. No name given.
                  >
                  > I remember when I had
                  > to deal with some older
                  > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                  > coordinator and director
                  > positions and it was
                  > impossible to get this
                  > one to follow the Guidelines
                  > on EK Worship Services
                  > (EWS). Many long-time
                  > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                  > Guidelines and my
                  > RESA turned a blind-
                  > eye to it all. We had
                  > so many former RESAs
                  > in volunteer positions
                  > that it was impossible
                  > to get them on the
                  > same page and to follow
                  > procedures. I think
                  > that some were just
                  > burned out and tired
                  > of Klemp's B.S. but
                  > didn't want to leave.
                  > Maybe they had too
                  > many friendships to
                  > lose. Plus, let's face
                  > it. A lot of these people
                  > are losers in the real
                  > world but are big shots
                  > in Eckankar. Those
                  > Higher Initiations are
                  > a big deal to the ego!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                  > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                  > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                  > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                  > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                  > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                  >
                  > Non ;)
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello All,
                  > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                  > > Letter I've read that
                  > > Klemp still needs to
                  > > update his Guidelines
                  > > for the H.I.s in the
                  > > field and chastise
                  > > those who are slow
                  > > to get with the program.
                  > >
                  > > Many long-time H.I.s
                  > > want the freedom
                  > > of Soul to be more
                  > > individualistic,
                  > > spontaneous, and
                  > > creative by thinking
                  > > they (Soul) can operate
                  > > outside-of-the-box,
                  > > thus, being channels
                  > > for the ECK. Klemp
                  > > has previously stated
                  > > that he's imperfect,
                  > > but that's not the case
                  > > with the ECK, correct?
                  > >
                  > > Why, then, shouldn't
                  > > their current (Present)
                  > > Inner EK Guidance be
                  > > followed versus that
                  > > of outer set-in-stone
                  > > ESC Guidelines printed
                  > > in the Past and approved
                  > > by a committee of imperfect
                  > > people on a plane ruled
                  > > by the KAL?
                  > >
                  > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                  > > that freedom of expression
                  > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                  > > version of ECKankar.
                  > > It's a hierarchy where
                  > > everything is spelled
                  > > out and controlled
                  > > by him and his secret
                  > > RESA police, plus, all
                  > > field work must be
                  > > approved via the
                  > > current Guidelines.
                  > >
                  > > Many inexperienced
                  > > EKists like the idea of
                  > > being told how to do
                  > > this or that and what
                  > > approved books to use
                  > > and what to say and
                  > > other details to make
                  > > the promotion of
                  > > Eckankar easier.
                  > >
                  > > But the real point the
                  > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                  > > is to have EK PR more
                  > > consistent and cookie
                  > > cutter looking/sounding
                  > > for the public.
                  > >
                  > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                  > > are like following a
                  > > recipe set-in-stone
                  > > that disregards individual
                  > > or regional tastes and
                  > > disallows any additions
                  > > or omissions of other
                  > > ingredients, methods,
                  > > and/or spices.
                  > >
                  > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                  > > are about H.I.s resisting
                  > > change. He says they "rock
                  > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                  > > that "it's all about fear."
                  > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                  > > and "reinforce in each other
                  > > a group's opposition to
                  > > anything new." Strange
                  > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                  > > subject to fear since he's
                  > > supposed to protect them!
                  > > This is how the KAL works.
                  > > Klemp is his agent.
                  > >
                  > > However, the real 'change'
                  > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                  > > Klemp's nonsense and
                  > > heavy handed control tactics.
                  > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                  > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                  > > being bound to dogma.
                  > > HK side-steps delivering
                  > > on his promises of protection
                  > > and never has anything
                  > > profound to share. And,
                  > > where are those Higher
                  > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                  > > yardsticks in measuring
                  > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                  > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                  > > the long-con and is, thus,
                  > > stingy and self-serving.
                  > >
                  > > Harold goes on to say that
                  > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                  > > on the path to God instead
                  > > of being stepping stones."
                  > > Apparently, being creative
                  > > and spontaneous and
                  > > following "Inner Nudges"
                  > > and/or "Signs" are not
                  > > permitted if it conflicts
                  > > with the LEM's outer,
                  > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                  > >
                  > > The LEM states that, "We
                  > > are here to learn." However,
                  > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                  > > from others since he never
                  > > listens? He's the Top goD
                  > > and doesn't partake in
                  > > two-way dialogues with
                  > > those under his authority.
                  > >
                  > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                  > > and unloving as he continues
                  > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                  > > believe that if they sit still
                  > > and breathe only enough to
                  > > sustain life that they may
                  > > well dodge the lightning
                  > > strikes of irksome change."
                  > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                  > > like KAL! However, by doing
                  > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                  > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                  > > Don't EKists still die of all
                  > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                  > > that could have be averted
                  > > if they had gotten proper
                  > > and immediate care? Sure!
                  > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                  > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                  > > are meaningless... unless
                  > > you've given this Black
                  > > Magician power over you!
                  > >
                  > > But, it seems that HK
                  > > has something else stuck
                  > > in his craw. It seems to
                  > > me that Klemp doesn't
                  > > like his 7ths just sitting
                  > > still and Contemplating
                  > > or HUing, and enjoying
                  > > life. But why shouldn't
                  > > they take it easy after
                  > > 40 years of doing PR
                  > > work for Eckankar!
                  > >
                  > > So, what does Klemp
                  > > the All compassionate,
                  > > loving, positive, and
                  > > empathetic icon of EK
                  > > conclude?
                  > >
                  > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                  > > refuses to adhere to
                  > > the ECK Guidelines
                  > > needs to be addressed
                  > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                  > > I wonder what that
                  > > really means? Well,
                  > > unless you're already
                  > > a 7th you can kiss that
                  > > next initiation good-bye
                  > > for like 10-20 years!
                  > >
                  > > Klemp continues to say,
                  > > "These are big stakes!
                  > > Continued refusal means
                  > > it's time for a replacement
                  > > to step in. A change is
                  > > due. Change. isn't it
                  > > funny how we have come
                  > > full circle?" No! It's not
                  > > really funny. Klemp
                  > > abuses the concept
                  > > of "change" and makes
                  > > it into a misnomer.
                  > >
                  > > What "changes" are there
                  > > in Eckankar? The same
                  > > old things are merely
                  > > revisited, updated, dusted
                  > > off and made to seem
                  > > "new." It's all a facade,
                  > > smoke and mirrors, and
                  > > a game of pretend by
                  > > creating brightly colored
                  > > straws to grab at and
                  > > cling to when drowning.
                  > >
                  > > Too bad that EKists are
                  > > so deluded and needy
                  > > and aren't able to read
                  > > between the lines and
                  > > see the real truth behind
                  > > Klemp's words and methods.
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  >
                • Janice Pfeiffer
                  Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.    Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                     
                    Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                     
                    That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                     
                    In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                     
                     I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                     
                    The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                     
                    It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                     
                    When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                     
                    Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                     
                    I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                    --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                     
                    Hello Janice,
                    Thanks for the interesting
                    reply and the sharing of
                    insights and experiences.
                    I really really enjoyed it
                    all.

                    The reason why someone
                    knew you received your
                    pink slip is because the
                    RESA gets an initiation
                    eligibility list where he/
                    she will mark yea/nay
                    for an initiation. When
                    the yea is checked the
                    ESC (membership services)
                    will more than likely issue
                    the pink slip for the initiation.
                    Or, the file has been red
                    flagged for some reason.
                    Klemp, I'm told, will put
                    a temporary hold on higher
                    initiations. Maybe it's due
                    to pending requirements
                    for training/retraining.
                    The ESC will notify the
                    RESA when the pink slip
                    is sent.

                    Most Eckists don't know
                    how the initiation process
                    works.

                    The RESA has a membership
                    list generated by the ESC
                    for all those EKists in their
                    region and it will show
                    initiation level, one's status
                    and date of membership
                    among other info. If a
                    new person sends in a
                    membership form to the
                    ESC from anywhere in
                    the RESA's region the RESA
                    will be notified of who
                    they are and their mailing
                    address.

                    I was glad Ford Johnson
                    wrote his book and that
                    I was told about it by an
                    Eckist who is still an H.I.
                    The Irony is that he was
                    doing Public Information
                    and was quite the gossip.

                    I always was the skeptic
                    and had trouble with a lot
                    of what I saw and experienced
                    around H.I.s.

                    When I was a lower initiate
                    I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                    spiritual nor anywhere close
                    to being enlightened. There
                    were too many contradictions,
                    restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                    Once you're an EK member
                    the next step is to get you
                    to become a volunteer on
                    HK's sales team.

                    I always wondered how
                    was there an "inner" connection
                    to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                    were still smoking and
                    drinking alcohol, but
                    getting promoted with
                    more initiations? I knew
                    of two 5ths who smoked
                    and drank and got pink
                    slips for the 6th. It's clear
                    that Klemp knows nothing
                    unless informed via phone
                    or snailmail... email now!

                    Yes, Janice, we were the
                    ones awakened to the Truth
                    while all of those "Higher"
                    (pretend) Initiates are still
                    sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                    become very skilled at
                    regurgitating the PR and
                    at facilitating and public
                    speaking. But, H.I.s have
                    no idea of what it's like
                    to be Free thinkers and
                    free of religion and of the
                    EK Hierarchy. They think
                    that their "spiritual experiences"
                    are unique when these
                    are common and similar
                    experiences that all religious
                    seekers have had... even
                    Christians!

                    Yes, we needed Eckankar
                    in order to fill a void and
                    to learn some important
                    lessons about ourselves
                    and about religion in general.

                    IMO, Those who left
                    Eckankar but still have
                    a need for religion, haven't
                    really learned that they
                    will never find answers
                    via a group consciousness
                    or via a guru/master.
                    True, it is nice to know
                    people of like mind and
                    to share things, but this
                    can be a bad thing as well
                    if we become too attached
                    or lazy and want to play
                    follow the leader again.

                    It all comes down to one's
                    private and personal experiences
                    and inner revelations with
                    oneSelf and with whatever
                    catalyst of "divine" creation.

                    Prometheus

                    Janice wrote:
                    I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                    Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                    I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                    Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                    How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                    That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                    The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                    Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                    I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                    I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                    I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                    Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                    Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                    Blessings to all of you.


                    prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                    > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                    > in Satsang Society "settler"
                    > and "explorer" positions at
                    > the EK Centers would trip
                    > over their egos and go on
                    > power trips. Many seemed
                    > cliquish and would huddle
                    > together. Then, again, some
                    > weren't all that friendly or
                    > were very introverted and
                    > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                    > including the clerics, to
                    > greet and talk to all of the
                    > new or seldom seen faces
                    > that showed up. Many
                    > only saw other Eckists at
                    > the monthly EWS and this
                    > was a time to catch up on
                    > things. This is why I'd
                    > suggest going to lunch
                    > after the EWS and socializing.
                    >
                    > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                    > True? I think so!
                    >
                    > Klemp's volunteer duties
                    > and requirements for Eckists
                    > means that they must take
                    > on extroverted roles in
                    > order to become H.I.s.
                    > Eckists must force themselves,
                    > against their innate natures,
                    > to become extroverted and
                    > egocentric. These leadership
                    > requirements create conflict,
                    > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                    > Thus, this imbalance that
                    > Klemp has created and
                    > reenforces aids him in
                    > the brainwashing of his
                    > flock to have programmed
                    > religious faith, beliefs, and
                    > mystical experiences. But,
                    > this has its toll and is why
                    > many long-time H.I.s choose
                    > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                    > and his anal control tactics.
                    >
                    > Sometimes, at special
                    > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                    > and mini retreats the
                    > long-time H.I.s, former
                    > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                    > members would gather
                    > around and gossip about
                    > those absent or present.
                    > Only, it wasn't seen as
                    > gossip but rationalized
                    > as more of an evaluative/
                    > investigative discussion
                    > for possible initiation
                    > recommendation or for
                    > a Satsang position appointment.
                    > They wanted to know,
                    > from sources who knew
                    > them, if there were problems
                    > with these EKists and, if
                    > so, what the specific details
                    > were. It was all ego driven
                    > and subjective because we
                    > were all volunteers and
                    > had family and personal
                    > lives too. But, it did weed
                    > out those who weren't as
                    > well indoctrinated....
                    > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                    > crap (busy work) was pretty
                    > much always a waste of
                    > time so, in the long run,
                    > enthusiasm was probably
                    > more important than acting
                    > the part. The Satsang positions
                    > and duties kept people
                    > busy, gave them a purpose
                    > and made them feel good,
                    > although, very stressed out.
                    >
                    > The Initiation game has made
                    > Eckists struggle with denying
                    > how much more they want of
                    > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                    >
                    > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                    > that an ESA told you that the
                    > people at the EK Center were
                    > crazy. That just isn't done
                    > and is part of HK's agenda
                    > of Silence and retraining.
                    >
                    > There's that old Buddha quote
                    > that Eckists sing and talk about
                    > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                    > and this is supposed to keep
                    > ECKists quiet or else they will
                    > sometimes get reported:
                    > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                    > this I ask myself before I
                    > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                    > following this criteria is very
                    > subjective and could or would
                    > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                    > conservations.
                    >
                    > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                    > may be "true" for you and
                    > for most people but not
                    > not for all people. And, is
                    > it "necessary" to exclaim
                    > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                    > this within earshot of people
                    > who aren't feeling well or
                    > who can't enjoy the day?
                    > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                    > to keep the critics of his
                    > policies and of his H.I.s
                    > to a minimum.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                    > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                    > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                    > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                    > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                    > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                    > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                    > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                    > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                    > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                    >
                    > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                    > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                    >
                    > Good to be away from it.
                    >
                    > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                    >
                    > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                    > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                    > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                    > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                    > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                    > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                    > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                    > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                    > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                    > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                    > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                    > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                    > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                    > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                    > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                    > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                    > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                    > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                    > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                    > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                    > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                    > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                    > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                    > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                    > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                    > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                    > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                    > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                    >
                    > Russ wrote:
                    > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                    > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                    > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                    > made him so popular in the eck community.
                    >
                    > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                    > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                    > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                    > things.
                    >
                    > Russ
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                    > What has me ROFLMAO is
                    > that Klemp has enough of
                    > a problem that he used it
                    > in the ASK The MASTER
                    > section of the H.I. Letter!
                    > And, it was the only question!
                    > They had, supposedly, an
                    > H.I. write-in and point out
                    > the problem. No name given.
                    >
                    > I remember when I had
                    > to deal with some older
                    > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                    > coordinator and director
                    > positions and it was
                    > impossible to get this
                    > one to follow the Guidelines
                    > on EK Worship Services
                    > (EWS). Many long-time
                    > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                    > Guidelines and my
                    > RESA turned a blind-
                    > eye to it all. We had
                    > so many former RESAs
                    > in volunteer positions
                    > that it was impossible
                    > to get them on the
                    > same page and to follow
                    > procedures. I think
                    > that some were just
                    > burned out and tired
                    > of Klemp's B.S. but
                    > didn't want to leave.
                    > Maybe they had too
                    > many friendships to
                    > lose. Plus, let's face
                    > it. A lot of these people
                    > are losers in the real
                    > world but are big shots
                    > in Eckankar. Those
                    > Higher Initiations are
                    > a big deal to the ego!
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    >
                    > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                    > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                    > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                    > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                    > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                    > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                    >
                    > Non ;)
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello All,
                    > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                    > > Letter I've read that
                    > > Klemp still needs to
                    > > update his Guidelines
                    > > for the H.I.s in the
                    > > field and chastise
                    > > those who are slow
                    > > to get with the program.
                    > >
                    > > Many long-time H.I.s
                    > > want the freedom
                    > > of Soul to be more
                    > > individualistic,
                    > > spontaneous, and
                    > > creative by thinking
                    > > they (Soul) can operate
                    > > outside-of-the-box,
                    > > thus, being channels
                    > > for the ECK. Klemp
                    > > has previously stated
                    > > that he's imperfect,
                    > > but that's not the case
                    > > with the ECK, correct?
                    > >
                    > > Why, then, shouldn't
                    > > their current (Present)
                    > > Inner EK Guidance be
                    > > followed versus that
                    > > of outer set-in-stone
                    > > ESC Guidelines printed
                    > > in the Past and approved
                    > > by a committee of imperfect
                    > > people on a plane ruled
                    > > by the KAL?
                    > >
                    > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                    > > that freedom of expression
                    > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                    > > version of ECKankar.
                    > > It's a hierarchy where
                    > > everything is spelled
                    > > out and controlled
                    > > by him and his secret
                    > > RESA police, plus, all
                    > > field work must be
                    > > approved via the
                    > > current Guidelines.
                    > >
                    > > Many inexperienced
                    > > EKists like the idea of
                    > > being told how to do
                    > > this or that and what
                    > > approved books to use
                    > > and what to say and
                    > > other details to make
                    > > the promotion of
                    > > Eckankar easier.
                    > >
                    > > But the real point the
                    > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                    > > is to have EK PR more
                    > > consistent and cookie
                    > > cutter looking/sounding
                    > > for the public.
                    > >
                    > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                    > > are like following a
                    > > recipe set-in-stone
                    > > that disregards individual
                    > > or regional tastes and
                    > > disallows any additions
                    > > or omissions of other
                    > > ingredients, methods,
                    > > and/or spices.
                    > >
                    > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                    > > are about H.I.s resisting
                    > > change. He says they "rock
                    > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                    > > that "it's all about fear."
                    > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                    > > and "reinforce in each other
                    > > a group's opposition to
                    > > anything new." Strange
                    > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                    > > subject to fear since he's
                    > > supposed to protect them!
                    > > This is how the KAL works.
                    > > Klemp is his agent.
                    > >
                    > > However, the real 'change'
                    > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                    > > Klemp's nonsense and
                    > > heavy handed control tactics.
                    > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                    > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                    > > being bound to dogma.
                    > > HK side-steps delivering
                    > > on his promises of protection
                    > > and never has anything
                    > > profound to share. And,
                    > > where are those Higher
                    > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                    > > yardsticks in measuring
                    > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                    > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                    > > the long-con and is, thus,
                    > > stingy and self-serving.
                    > >
                    > > Harold goes on to say that
                    > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                    > > on the path to God instead
                    > > of being stepping stones."
                    > > Apparently, being creative
                    > > and spontaneous and
                    > > following "Inner Nudges"
                    > > and/or "Signs" are not
                    > > permitted if it conflicts
                    > > with the LEM's outer,
                    > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                    > >
                    > > The LEM states that, "We
                    > > are here to learn." However,
                    > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                    > > from others since he never
                    > > listens? He's the Top goD
                    > > and doesn't partake in
                    > > two-way dialogues with
                    > > those under his authority.
                    > >
                    > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                    > > and unloving as he continues
                    > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                    > > believe that if they sit still
                    > > and breathe only enough to
                    > > sustain life that they may
                    > > well dodge the lightning
                    > > strikes of irksome change."
                    > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                    > > like KAL! However, by doing
                    > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                    > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                    > > Don't EKists still die of all
                    > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                    > > that could have be averted
                    > > if they had gotten proper
                    > > and immediate care? Sure!
                    > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                    > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                    > > are meaningless... unless
                    > > you've given this Black
                    > > Magician power over you!
                    > >
                    > > But, it seems that HK
                    > > has something else stuck
                    > > in his craw. It seems to
                    > > me that Klemp doesn't
                    > > like his 7ths just sitting
                    > > still and Contemplating
                    > > or HUing, and enjoying
                    > > life. But why shouldn't
                    > > they take it easy after
                    > > 40 years of doing PR
                    > > work for Eckankar!
                    > >
                    > > So, what does Klemp
                    > > the All compassionate,
                    > > loving, positive, and
                    > > empathetic icon of EK
                    > > conclude?
                    > >
                    > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                    > > refuses to adhere to
                    > > the ECK Guidelines
                    > > needs to be addressed
                    > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                    > > I wonder what that
                    > > really means? Well,
                    > > unless you're already
                    > > a 7th you can kiss that
                    > > next initiation good-bye
                    > > for like 10-20 years!
                    > >
                    > > Klemp continues to say,
                    > > "These are big stakes!
                    > > Continued refusal means
                    > > it's time for a replacement
                    > > to step in. A change is
                    > > due. Change. isn't it
                    > > funny how we have come
                    > > full circle?" No! It's not
                    > > really funny. Klemp
                    > > abuses the concept
                    > > of "change" and makes
                    > > it into a misnomer.
                    > >
                    > > What "changes" are there
                    > > in Eckankar? The same
                    > > old things are merely
                    > > revisited, updated, dusted
                    > > off and made to seem
                    > > "new." It's all a facade,
                    > > smoke and mirrors, and
                    > > a game of pretend by
                    > > creating brightly colored
                    > > straws to grab at and
                    > > cling to when drowning.
                    > >
                    > > Too bad that EKists are
                    > > so deluded and needy
                    > > and aren't able to read
                    > > between the lines and
                    > > see the real truth behind
                    > > Klemp's words and methods.
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    >

                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Janice, Most H.I.s have no idea how the EK Initiation process works. It s sad because there are some really nice and gentile chelas who have been passed
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Janice,
                      Most H.I.s have no idea
                      how the EK Initiation
                      process works. It's sad
                      because there are some
                      really nice and gentile
                      chelas who have been
                      passed over on the 5th.
                      Some died as 4ths when
                      they should have had
                      some happiness, peace
                      of mind, and contentment
                      by receiving that 5th.
                      I've know several eckists
                      where this has happened.
                      It was no big deal to give
                      them their 5th initiation,
                      but some RESAs are mean-
                      spirited, lack empathy,
                      and are petty. They've
                      gotten caught up in HK's
                      game. All Eckists should
                      get the 5th after no more
                      than 20 years, especially,
                      when they participate
                      and are kept current on
                      their membership. However,
                      that's not the way the
                      power trip is played by
                      some RESAs.

                      I hate to admit this but
                      I helped the RESA when
                      asked about people. I
                      was quizzed about those
                      up for, usually, the 5th
                      and 6th initiation. I was
                      asked about what the EKist
                      said, how they acted and
                      conducted themselves
                      and any unusual things
                      that I noticed about
                      their behavior or performance.
                      And then I was asked for
                      my opinion. Unfortunately
                      my replies, I know, had
                      some initiations delayed
                      for these people and I
                      regret that I got caught
                      up in this petty mind game.
                      Some of these people are
                      still H.I.s and have no idea
                      why they had to wait so
                      long for their 5th or 6th.
                      Many probably think that
                      the Mahanta was testing
                      them! LOL! On the other
                      hand maybe some of them,
                      by now, have been asked
                      to evaluate people too.
                      I wonder if they put two
                      and two together and
                      figured it out, unless,
                      they were told why like
                      I had been told.

                      Why, though, should
                      Klemp have a system
                      for initiations that judges
                      and punishes Eckists
                      based upon our evaluations?
                      Where's that Inner Knowingness
                      of the Mahanta?

                      Besides, a 5th is no big
                      deal, and it's not like one
                      becomes a cleric automatically
                      with a 5th. Really, being
                      an 5th is no more being
                      an official representative
                      of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                      Yes, most Eckists have
                      no idea that a computer
                      generated eligibility list
                      is sent to the RESA by the
                      ESC and that phone calls
                      are made asking questions
                      where subjective answers
                      are given and that the RESA
                      uses these to either approve
                      and give a recommendation
                      for initiation or doesn't.
                      However, I will say that
                      any "No" has to have an
                      valid reason. The ESC
                      usually follows the RESAs'
                      recommendations.

                      BTW- Janice, I think that
                      your RESA approved of
                      your initiation because
                      he felt guilty for having
                      yelled at you, plus, you
                      could have reported him
                      to the ESC. Maybe the
                      initiation approval was
                      meant to appease you?

                      Prometheus



                      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                      Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person?

                      That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless.

                      In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                      I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all.

                      The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his time and hung up.

                      It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if that was part of it.

                      When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It was enough.

                      Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                      I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                      prometheus wrote:

                      Hello Janice,
                      Thanks for the interesting
                      reply and the sharing of
                      insights and experiences.
                      I really really enjoyed it
                      all.

                      The reason why someone
                      knew you received your
                      pink slip is because the
                      RESA gets an initiation
                      eligibility list where he/
                      she will mark yea/nay
                      for an initiation. When
                      the yea is checked the
                      ESC (membership services)
                      will more than likely issue
                      the pink slip for the initiation.
                      Or, the file has been red
                      flagged for some reason.
                      Klemp, I'm told, will put
                      a temporary hold on higher
                      initiations. Maybe it's due
                      to pending requirements
                      for training/retraining.
                      The ESC will notify the
                      RESA when the pink slip
                      is sent.

                      Most Eckists don't know
                      how the initiation process
                      works.

                      The RESA has a membership
                      list generated by the ESC
                      for all those EKists in their
                      region and it will show
                      initiation level, one's status
                      and date of membership
                      among other info. If a
                      new person sends in a
                      membership form to the
                      ESC from anywhere in
                      the RESA's region the RESA
                      will be notified of who
                      they are and their mailing
                      address.

                      I was glad Ford Johnson
                      wrote his book and that
                      I was told about it by an
                      Eckist who is still an H.I.
                      The Irony is that he was
                      doing Public Information
                      and was quite the gossip.

                      I always was the skeptic
                      and had trouble with a lot
                      of what I saw and experienced
                      around H.I.s.

                      When I was a lower initiate
                      I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                      spiritual nor anywhere close
                      to being enlightened. There
                      were too many contradictions,
                      restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                      Once you're an EK member
                      the next step is to get you
                      to become a volunteer on
                      HK's sales team.

                      I always wondered how
                      was there an "inner" connection
                      to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                      were still smoking and
                      drinking alcohol, but
                      getting promoted with
                      more initiations? I knew
                      of two 5ths who smoked
                      and drank and got pink
                      slips for the 6th. It's clear
                      that Klemp knows nothing
                      unless informed via phone
                      or snailmail... email now!

                      Yes, Janice, we were the
                      ones awakened to the Truth
                      while all of those "Higher"
                      (pretend) Initiates are still
                      sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                      become very skilled at
                      regurgitating the PR and
                      at facilitating and public
                      speaking. But, H.I.s have
                      no idea of what it's like
                      to be Free thinkers and
                      free of religion and of the
                      EK Hierarchy. They think
                      that their "spiritual experiences"
                      are unique when these
                      are common and similar
                      experiences that all religious
                      seekers have had... even
                      Christians!

                      Yes, we needed Eckankar
                      in order to fill a void and
                      to learn some important
                      lessons about ourselves
                      and about religion in general.

                      IMO, Those who left
                      Eckankar but still have
                      a need for religion, haven't
                      really learned that they
                      will never find answers
                      via a group consciousness
                      or via a guru/master.
                      True, it is nice to know
                      people of like mind and
                      to share things, but this
                      can be a bad thing as well
                      if we become too attached
                      or lazy and want to play
                      follow the leader again.

                      It all comes down to one's
                      private and personal experiences
                      and inner revelations with
                      oneSelf and with whatever
                      catalyst of "divine" creation.

                      Prometheus

                      Janice wrote:
                      I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                      Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                      I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                      Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                      How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                      That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                      The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                      Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                      I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                      I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                      I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                      Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                      Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                      Blessings to all of you.


                      prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                      > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                      > in Satsang Society "settler"
                      > and "explorer" positions at
                      > the EK Centers would trip
                      > over their egos and go on
                      > power trips. Many seemed
                      > cliquish and would huddle
                      > together. Then, again, some
                      > weren't all that friendly or
                      > were very introverted and
                      > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                      > including the clerics, to
                      > greet and talk to all of the
                      > new or seldom seen faces
                      > that showed up. Many
                      > only saw other Eckists at
                      > the monthly EWS and this
                      > was a time to catch up on
                      > things. This is why I'd
                      > suggest going to lunch
                      > after the EWS and socializing.
                      >
                      > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                      > True? I think so!
                      >
                      > Klemp's volunteer duties
                      > and requirements for Eckists
                      > means that they must take
                      > on extroverted roles in
                      > order to become H.I.s.
                      > Eckists must force themselves,
                      > against their innate natures,
                      > to become extroverted and
                      > egocentric. These leadership
                      > requirements create conflict,
                      > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                      > Thus, this imbalance that
                      > Klemp has created and
                      > reenforces aids him in
                      > the brainwashing of his
                      > flock to have programmed
                      > religious faith, beliefs, and
                      > mystical experiences. But,
                      > this has its toll and is why
                      > many long-time H.I.s choose
                      > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                      > and his anal control tactics.
                      >
                      > Sometimes, at special
                      > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                      > and mini retreats the
                      > long-time H.I.s, former
                      > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                      > members would gather
                      > around and gossip about
                      > those absent or present.
                      > Only, it wasn't seen as
                      > gossip but rationalized
                      > as more of an evaluative/
                      > investigative discussion
                      > for possible initiation
                      > recommendation or for
                      > a Satsang position appointment.
                      > They wanted to know,
                      > from sources who knew
                      > them, if there were problems
                      > with these EKists and, if
                      > so, what the specific details
                      > were. It was all ego driven
                      > and subjective because we
                      > were all volunteers and
                      > had family and personal
                      > lives too. But, it did weed
                      > out those who weren't as
                      > well indoctrinated....
                      > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                      > crap (busy work) was pretty
                      > much always a waste of
                      > time so, in the long run,
                      > enthusiasm was probably
                      > more important than acting
                      > the part. The Satsang positions
                      > and duties kept people
                      > busy, gave them a purpose
                      > and made them feel good,
                      > although, very stressed out.
                      >
                      > The Initiation game has made
                      > Eckists struggle with denying
                      > how much more they want of
                      > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                      >
                      > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                      > that an ESA told you that the
                      > people at the EK Center were
                      > crazy. That just isn't done
                      > and is part of HK's agenda
                      > of Silence and retraining.
                      >
                      > There's that old Buddha quote
                      > that Eckists sing and talk about
                      > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                      > and this is supposed to keep
                      > ECKists quiet or else they will
                      > sometimes get reported:
                      > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                      > this I ask myself before I
                      > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                      > following this criteria is very
                      > subjective and could or would
                      > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                      > conservations.
                      >
                      > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                      > may be "true" for you and
                      > for most people but not
                      > not for all people. And, is
                      > it "necessary" to exclaim
                      > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                      > this within earshot of people
                      > who aren't feeling well or
                      > who can't enjoy the day?
                      > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                      > to keep the critics of his
                      > policies and of his H.I.s
                      > to a minimum.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                      > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                      > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                      > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                      > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                      > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                      > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                      > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                      > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                      > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                      >
                      > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                      > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                      >
                      > Good to be away from it.
                      >
                      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      >
                      > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                      > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                      > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                      > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                      > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                      > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                      > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                      > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                      > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                      > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                      > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                      > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                      > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                      > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                      > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                      > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                      > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                      > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                      > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                      > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                      > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                      > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                      > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                      > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                      > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                      > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                      > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                      > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                      >
                      > Russ wrote:
                      > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                      > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                      > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                      > made him so popular in the eck community.
                      >
                      > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                      > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                      > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                      > things.
                      >
                      > Russ
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                      > What has me ROFLMAO is
                      > that Klemp has enough of
                      > a problem that he used it
                      > in the ASK The MASTER
                      > section of the H.I. Letter!
                      > And, it was the only question!
                      > They had, supposedly, an
                      > H.I. write-in and point out
                      > the problem. No name given.
                      >
                      > I remember when I had
                      > to deal with some older
                      > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                      > coordinator and director
                      > positions and it was
                      > impossible to get this
                      > one to follow the Guidelines
                      > on EK Worship Services
                      > (EWS). Many long-time
                      > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                      > Guidelines and my
                      > RESA turned a blind-
                      > eye to it all. We had
                      > so many former RESAs
                      > in volunteer positions
                      > that it was impossible
                      > to get them on the
                      > same page and to follow
                      > procedures. I think
                      > that some were just
                      > burned out and tired
                      > of Klemp's B.S. but
                      > didn't want to leave.
                      > Maybe they had too
                      > many friendships to
                      > lose. Plus, let's face
                      > it. A lot of these people
                      > are losers in the real
                      > world but are big shots
                      > in Eckankar. Those
                      > Higher Initiations are
                      > a big deal to the ego!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                      > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                      > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                      > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                      > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                      > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                      >
                      > Non ;)
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello All,
                      > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                      > > Letter I've read that
                      > > Klemp still needs to
                      > > update his Guidelines
                      > > for the H.I.s in the
                      > > field and chastise
                      > > those who are slow
                      > > to get with the program.
                      > >
                      > > Many long-time H.I.s
                      > > want the freedom
                      > > of Soul to be more
                      > > individualistic,
                      > > spontaneous, and
                      > > creative by thinking
                      > > they (Soul) can operate
                      > > outside-of-the-box,
                      > > thus, being channels
                      > > for the ECK. Klemp
                      > > has previously stated
                      > > that he's imperfect,
                      > > but that's not the case
                      > > with the ECK, correct?
                      > >
                      > > Why, then, shouldn't
                      > > their current (Present)
                      > > Inner EK Guidance be
                      > > followed versus that
                      > > of outer set-in-stone
                      > > ESC Guidelines printed
                      > > in the Past and approved
                      > > by a committee of imperfect
                      > > people on a plane ruled
                      > > by the KAL?
                      > >
                      > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                      > > that freedom of expression
                      > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                      > > version of ECKankar.
                      > > It's a hierarchy where
                      > > everything is spelled
                      > > out and controlled
                      > > by him and his secret
                      > > RESA police, plus, all
                      > > field work must be
                      > > approved via the
                      > > current Guidelines.
                      > >
                      > > Many inexperienced
                      > > EKists like the idea of
                      > > being told how to do
                      > > this or that and what
                      > > approved books to use
                      > > and what to say and
                      > > other details to make
                      > > the promotion of
                      > > Eckankar easier.
                      > >
                      > > But the real point the
                      > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                      > > is to have EK PR more
                      > > consistent and cookie
                      > > cutter looking/sounding
                      > > for the public.
                      > >
                      > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                      > > are like following a
                      > > recipe set-in-stone
                      > > that disregards individual
                      > > or regional tastes and
                      > > disallows any additions
                      > > or omissions of other
                      > > ingredients, methods,
                      > > and/or spices.
                      > >
                      > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                      > > are about H.I.s resisting
                      > > change. He says they "rock
                      > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                      > > that "it's all about fear."
                      > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                      > > and "reinforce in each other
                      > > a group's opposition to
                      > > anything new." Strange
                      > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                      > > subject to fear since he's
                      > > supposed to protect them!
                      > > This is how the KAL works.
                      > > Klemp is his agent.
                      > >
                      > > However, the real 'change'
                      > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                      > > Klemp's nonsense and
                      > > heavy handed control tactics.
                      > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                      > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                      > > being bound to dogma.
                      > > HK side-steps delivering
                      > > on his promises of protection
                      > > and never has anything
                      > > profound to share. And,
                      > > where are those Higher
                      > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                      > > yardsticks in measuring
                      > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                      > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                      > > the long-con and is, thus,
                      > > stingy and self-serving.
                      > >
                      > > Harold goes on to say that
                      > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                      > > on the path to God instead
                      > > of being stepping stones."
                      > > Apparently, being creative
                      > > and spontaneous and
                      > > following "Inner Nudges"
                      > > and/or "Signs" are not
                      > > permitted if it conflicts
                      > > with the LEM's outer,
                      > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                      > >
                      > > The LEM states that, "We
                      > > are here to learn." However,
                      > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                      > > from others since he never
                      > > listens? He's the Top goD
                      > > and doesn't partake in
                      > > two-way dialogues with
                      > > those under his authority.
                      > >
                      > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                      > > and unloving as he continues
                      > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                      > > believe that if they sit still
                      > > and breathe only enough to
                      > > sustain life that they may
                      > > well dodge the lightning
                      > > strikes of irksome change."
                      > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                      > > like KAL! However, by doing
                      > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                      > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                      > > Don't EKists still die of all
                      > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                      > > that could have be averted
                      > > if they had gotten proper
                      > > and immediate care? Sure!
                      > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                      > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                      > > are meaningless... unless
                      > > you've given this Black
                      > > Magician power over you!
                      > >
                      > > But, it seems that HK
                      > > has something else stuck
                      > > in his craw. It seems to
                      > > me that Klemp doesn't
                      > > like his 7ths just sitting
                      > > still and Contemplating
                      > > or HUing, and enjoying
                      > > life. But why shouldn't
                      > > they take it easy after
                      > > 40 years of doing PR
                      > > work for Eckankar!
                      > >
                      > > So, what does Klemp
                      > > the All compassionate,
                      > > loving, positive, and
                      > > empathetic icon of EK
                      > > conclude?
                      > >
                      > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                      > > refuses to adhere to
                      > > the ECK Guidelines
                      > > needs to be addressed
                      > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                      > > I wonder what that
                      > > really means? Well,
                      > > unless you're already
                      > > a 7th you can kiss that
                      > > next initiation good-bye
                      > > for like 10-20 years!
                      > >
                      > > Klemp continues to say,
                      > > "These are big stakes!
                      > > Continued refusal means
                      > > it's time for a replacement
                      > > to step in. A change is
                      > > due. Change. isn't it
                      > > funny how we have come
                      > > full circle?" No! It's not
                      > > really funny. Klemp
                      > > abuses the concept
                      > > of "change" and makes
                      > > it into a misnomer.
                      > >
                      > > What "changes" are there
                      > > in Eckankar? The same
                      > > old things are merely
                      > > revisited, updated, dusted
                      > > off and made to seem
                      > > "new." It's all a facade,
                      > > smoke and mirrors, and
                      > > a game of pretend by
                      > > creating brightly colored
                      > > straws to grab at and
                      > > cling to when drowning.
                      > >
                      > > Too bad that EKists are
                      > > so deluded and needy
                      > > and aren't able to read
                      > > between the lines and
                      > > see the real truth behind
                      > > Klemp's words and methods.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                    • Janice Pfeiffer
                      Thanks again Prometheus,   The very fact that this resa thought I was asking about my own initiations and he had to insist that he had said nothing about me
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
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                        Thanks again Prometheus,
                         
                        The very fact that this resa thought I was asking about my own initiations and he had to insist that he had said nothing about me was proof that what I had been told,  was in fact true.  I didn't ask about my own and I said nothing about anything he might have said.  I was asking about how all initiations came about.  Yes, the initial info I got was the computer generated the list and  then the locals were questioned.
                         
                        For the longest time I did consider writing Minneapolis about my experiences.  The reason I finally decided against it was, I thought it would only help eckankar sharpen it's con game by telling them about it's weaknesses.  Why help people become better liars and cheaters? 
                         
                        It never occurred to me to try and take action about the resa screaming at me.  He was clearly out of control.  When I am dealing with a person whose behavior is so erratic, I just can't take their opinions seriously.  Besides, it was just more proof that the whole org ran like a circus filled with clowns and the bigger the nut job, the more likely they would advance.  I don't think klemp himself would give me a straight answer for what I ask and most likely if I got one at all, it wouldn't be an intelligent one.
                         
                        According to what you are saying even HI's didn't know the truth about initiations. I take it only those in some kind of local leadership roles were asked about individuals.
                         
                        After hearing what  you say, I feel very lucky that I found out as early as I did.  It must be a closely guarded secret.  Until now, I assumed that all HI's did know and I couldn't understand why the lies about it kept being perpetuated down. 
                         
                        You have given me just what I needed to know.  Most eckist remain in the dark no matter how long they are in.  Wow, that's a mind blower.  You have to admit, it is quite an ingenious con.  I do appreciate your frank answer. 
                         
                        As always, thanks for all you give.
                         

                        --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 8:14 AM

                         
                        Hello Janice,
                        Most H.I.s have no idea
                        how the EK Initiation
                        process works. It's sad
                        because there are some
                        really nice and gentile
                        chelas who have been
                        passed over on the 5th.
                        Some died as 4ths when
                        they should have had
                        some happiness, peace
                        of mind, and contentment
                        by receiving that 5th.
                        I've know several eckists
                        where this has happened.
                        It was no big deal to give
                        them their 5th initiation,
                        but some RESAs are mean-
                        spirited, lack empathy,
                        and are petty. They've
                        gotten caught up in HK's
                        game. All Eckists should
                        get the 5th after no more
                        than 20 years, especially,
                        when they participate
                        and are kept current on
                        their membership. However,
                        that's not the way the
                        power trip is played by
                        some RESAs.

                        I hate to admit this but
                        I helped the RESA when
                        asked about people. I
                        was quizzed about those
                        up for, usually, the 5th
                        and 6th initiation. I was
                        asked about what the EKist
                        said, how they acted and
                        conducted themselves
                        and any unusual things
                        that I noticed about
                        their behavior or performance.
                        And then I was asked for
                        my opinion. Unfortunately
                        my replies, I know, had
                        some initiations delayed
                        for these people and I
                        regret that I got caught
                        up in this petty mind game.
                        Some of these people are
                        still H.I.s and have no idea
                        why they had to wait so
                        long for their 5th or 6th.
                        Many probably think that
                        the Mahanta was testing
                        them! LOL! On the other
                        hand maybe some of them,
                        by now, have been asked
                        to evaluate people too.
                        I wonder if they put two
                        and two together and
                        figured it out, unless,
                        they were told why like
                        I had been told.

                        Why, though, should
                        Klemp have a system
                        for initiations that judges
                        and punishes Eckists
                        based upon our evaluations?
                        Where's that Inner Knowingness
                        of the Mahanta?

                        Besides, a 5th is no big
                        deal, and it's not like one
                        becomes a cleric automatically
                        with a 5th. Really, being
                        an 5th is no more being
                        an official representative
                        of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                        Yes, most Eckists have
                        no idea that a computer
                        generated eligibility list
                        is sent to the RESA by the
                        ESC and that phone calls
                        are made asking questions
                        where subjective answers
                        are given and that the RESA
                        uses these to either approve
                        and give a recommendation
                        for initiation or doesn't.
                        However, I will say that
                        any "No" has to have an
                        valid reason. The ESC
                        usually follows the RESAs'
                        recommendations.

                        BTW- Janice, I think that
                        your RESA approved of
                        your initiation because
                        he felt guilty for having
                        yelled at you, plus, you
                        could have reported him
                        to the ESC. Maybe the
                        initiation approval was
                        meant to appease you?

                        Prometheus


                        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                        Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person?

                        That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless.

                        In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                        I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all.

                        The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his time and hung up.

                        It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if that was part of it.

                        When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It was enough.

                        Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                        I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                        prometheus wrote:

                        Hello Janice,
                        Thanks for the interesting
                        reply and the sharing of
                        insights and experiences.
                        I really really enjoyed it
                        all.

                        The reason why someone
                        knew you received your
                        pink slip is because the
                        RESA gets an initiation
                        eligibility list where he/
                        she will mark yea/nay
                        for an initiation. When
                        the yea is checked the
                        ESC (membership services)
                        will more than likely issue
                        the pink slip for the initiation.
                        Or, the file has been red
                        flagged for some reason.
                        Klemp, I'm told, will put
                        a temporary hold on higher
                        initiations. Maybe it's due
                        to pending requirements
                        for training/retraining.
                        The ESC will notify the
                        RESA when the pink slip
                        is sent.

                        Most Eckists don't know
                        how the initiation process
                        works.

                        The RESA has a membership
                        list generated by the ESC
                        for all those EKists in their
                        region and it will show
                        initiation level, one's status
                        and date of membership
                        among other info. If a
                        new person sends in a
                        membership form to the
                        ESC from anywhere in
                        the RESA's region the RESA
                        will be notified of who
                        they are and their mailing
                        address.

                        I was glad Ford Johnson
                        wrote his book and that
                        I was told about it by an
                        Eckist who is still an H.I.
                        The Irony is that he was
                        doing Public Information
                        and was quite the gossip.

                        I always was the skeptic
                        and had trouble with a lot
                        of what I saw and experienced
                        around H.I.s.

                        When I was a lower initiate
                        I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                        spiritual nor anywhere close
                        to being enlightened. There
                        were too many contradictions,
                        restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                        Once you're an EK member
                        the next step is to get you
                        to become a volunteer on
                        HK's sales team.

                        I always wondered how
                        was there an "inner" connection
                        to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                        were still smoking and
                        drinking alcohol, but
                        getting promoted with
                        more initiations? I knew
                        of two 5ths who smoked
                        and drank and got pink
                        slips for the 6th. It's clear
                        that Klemp knows nothing
                        unless informed via phone
                        or snailmail... email now!

                        Yes, Janice, we were the
                        ones awakened to the Truth
                        while all of those "Higher"
                        (pretend) Initiates are still
                        sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                        become very skilled at
                        regurgitating the PR and
                        at facilitating and public
                        speaking. But, H.I.s have
                        no idea of what it's like
                        to be Free thinkers and
                        free of religion and of the
                        EK Hierarchy. They think
                        that their "spiritual experiences"
                        are unique when these
                        are common and similar
                        experiences that all religious
                        seekers have had... even
                        Christians!

                        Yes, we needed Eckankar
                        in order to fill a void and
                        to learn some important
                        lessons about ourselves
                        and about religion in general.

                        IMO, Those who left
                        Eckankar but still have
                        a need for religion, haven't
                        really learned that they
                        will never find answers
                        via a group consciousness
                        or via a guru/master.
                        True, it is nice to know
                        people of like mind and
                        to share things, but this
                        can be a bad thing as well
                        if we become too attached
                        or lazy and want to play
                        follow the leader again.

                        It all comes down to one's
                        private and personal experiences
                        and inner revelations with
                        oneSelf and with whatever
                        catalyst of "divine" creation.

                        Prometheus

                        Janice wrote:
                        I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                        Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                        I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                        Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                        How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                        That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                        The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                        Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                        I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                        I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                        I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                        Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                        Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                        Blessings to all of you.

                        prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                        > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                        > in Satsang Society "settler"
                        > and "explorer" positions at
                        > the EK Centers would trip
                        > over their egos and go on
                        > power trips. Many seemed
                        > cliquish and would huddle
                        > together. Then, again, some
                        > weren't all that friendly or
                        > were very introverted and
                        > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                        > including the clerics, to
                        > greet and talk to all of the
                        > new or seldom seen faces
                        > that showed up. Many
                        > only saw other Eckists at
                        > the monthly EWS and this
                        > was a time to catch up on
                        > things. This is why I'd
                        > suggest going to lunch
                        > after the EWS and socializing.
                        >
                        > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                        > True? I think so!
                        >
                        > Klemp's volunteer duties
                        > and requirements for Eckists
                        > means that they must take
                        > on extroverted roles in
                        > order to become H.I.s.
                        > Eckists must force themselves,
                        > against their innate natures,
                        > to become extroverted and
                        > egocentric. These leadership
                        > requirements create conflict,
                        > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                        > Thus, this imbalance that
                        > Klemp has created and
                        > reenforces aids him in
                        > the brainwashing of his
                        > flock to have programmed
                        > religious faith, beliefs, and
                        > mystical experiences. But,
                        > this has its toll and is why
                        > many long-time H.I.s choose
                        > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                        > and his anal control tactics.
                        >
                        > Sometimes, at special
                        > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                        > and mini retreats the
                        > long-time H.I.s, former
                        > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                        > members would gather
                        > around and gossip about
                        > those absent or present.
                        > Only, it wasn't seen as
                        > gossip but rationalized
                        > as more of an evaluative/
                        > investigative discussion
                        > for possible initiation
                        > recommendation or for
                        > a Satsang position appointment.
                        > They wanted to know,
                        > from sources who knew
                        > them, if there were problems
                        > with these EKists and, if
                        > so, what the specific details
                        > were. It was all ego driven
                        > and subjective because we
                        > were all volunteers and
                        > had family and personal
                        > lives too. But, it did weed
                        > out those who weren't as
                        > well indoctrinated....
                        > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                        > crap (busy work) was pretty
                        > much always a waste of
                        > time so, in the long run,
                        > enthusiasm was probably
                        > more important than acting
                        > the part. The Satsang positions
                        > and duties kept people
                        > busy, gave them a purpose
                        > and made them feel good,
                        > although, very stressed out.
                        >
                        > The Initiation game has made
                        > Eckists struggle with denying
                        > how much more they want of
                        > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                        >
                        > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                        > that an ESA told you that the
                        > people at the EK Center were
                        > crazy. That just isn't done
                        > and is part of HK's agenda
                        > of Silence and retraining.
                        >
                        > There's that old Buddha quote
                        > that Eckists sing and talk about
                        > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                        > and this is supposed to keep
                        > ECKists quiet or else they will
                        > sometimes get reported:
                        > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                        > this I ask myself before I
                        > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                        > following this criteria is very
                        > subjective and could or would
                        > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                        > conservations.
                        >
                        > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                        > may be "true" for you and
                        > for most people but not
                        > not for all people. And, is
                        > it "necessary" to exclaim
                        > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                        > this within earshot of people
                        > who aren't feeling well or
                        > who can't enjoy the day?
                        > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                        > to keep the critics of his
                        > policies and of his H.I.s
                        > to a minimum.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                        > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                        > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                        > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                        > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                        > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                        > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                        > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                        > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                        > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                        >
                        > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                        > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                        >
                        > Good to be away from it.
                        >
                        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        >
                        > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                        > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                        > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                        > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                        > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                        > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                        > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                        > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                        > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                        > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                        > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                        > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                        > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                        > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                        > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                        > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                        > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                        > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                        > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                        > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                        > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                        > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                        > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                        > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                        > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                        > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                        > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                        > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                        >
                        > Russ wrote:
                        > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                        > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                        > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                        > made him so popular in the eck community.
                        >
                        > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                        > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                        > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                        > things.
                        >
                        > Russ
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                        > What has me ROFLMAO is
                        > that Klemp has enough of
                        > a problem that he used it
                        > in the ASK The MASTER
                        > section of the H.I. Letter!
                        > And, it was the only question!
                        > They had, supposedly, an
                        > H.I. write-in and point out
                        > the problem. No name given.
                        >
                        > I remember when I had
                        > to deal with some older
                        > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                        > coordinator and director
                        > positions and it was
                        > impossible to get this
                        > one to follow the Guidelines
                        > on EK Worship Services
                        > (EWS). Many long-time
                        > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                        > Guidelines and my
                        > RESA turned a blind-
                        > eye to it all. We had
                        > so many former RESAs
                        > in volunteer positions
                        > that it was impossible
                        > to get them on the
                        > same page and to follow
                        > procedures. I think
                        > that some were just
                        > burned out and tired
                        > of Klemp's B.S. but
                        > didn't want to leave.
                        > Maybe they had too
                        > many friendships to
                        > lose. Plus, let's face
                        > it. A lot of these people
                        > are losers in the real
                        > world but are big shots
                        > in Eckankar. Those
                        > Higher Initiations are
                        > a big deal to the ego!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                        > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                        > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                        > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                        > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                        > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                        >
                        > Non ;)
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello All,
                        > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                        > > Letter I've read that
                        > > Klemp still needs to
                        > > update his Guidelines
                        > > for the H.I.s in the
                        > > field and chastise
                        > > those who are slow
                        > > to get with the program.
                        > >
                        > > Many long-time H.I.s
                        > > want the freedom
                        > > of Soul to be more
                        > > individualistic,
                        > > spontaneous, and
                        > > creative by thinking
                        > > they (Soul) can operate
                        > > outside-of-the-box,
                        > > thus, being channels
                        > > for the ECK. Klemp
                        > > has previously stated
                        > > that he's imperfect,
                        > > but that's not the case
                        > > with the ECK, correct?
                        > >
                        > > Why, then, shouldn't
                        > > their current (Present)
                        > > Inner EK Guidance be
                        > > followed versus that
                        > > of outer set-in-stone
                        > > ESC Guidelines printed
                        > > in the Past and approved
                        > > by a committee of imperfect
                        > > people on a plane ruled
                        > > by the KAL?
                        > >
                        > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                        > > that freedom of expression
                        > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                        > > version of ECKankar.
                        > > It's a hierarchy where
                        > > everything is spelled
                        > > out and controlled
                        > > by him and his secret
                        > > RESA police, plus, all
                        > > field work must be
                        > > approved via the
                        > > current Guidelines.
                        > >
                        > > Many inexperienced
                        > > EKists like the idea of
                        > > being told how to do
                        > > this or that and what
                        > > approved books to use
                        > > and what to say and
                        > > other details to make
                        > > the promotion of
                        > > Eckankar easier.
                        > >
                        > > But the real point the
                        > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                        > > is to have EK PR more
                        > > consistent and cookie
                        > > cutter looking/sounding
                        > > for the public.
                        > >
                        > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                        > > are like following a
                        > > recipe set-in-stone
                        > > that disregards individual
                        > > or regional tastes and
                        > > disallows any additions
                        > > or omissions of other
                        > > ingredients, methods,
                        > > and/or spices.
                        > >
                        > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                        > > are about H.I.s resisting
                        > > change. He says they "rock
                        > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                        > > that "it's all about fear."
                        > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                        > > and "reinforce in each other
                        > > a group's opposition to
                        > > anything new." Strange
                        > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                        > > subject to fear since he's
                        > > supposed to protect them!
                        > > This is how the KAL works.
                        > > Klemp is his agent.
                        > >
                        > > However, the real 'change'
                        > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                        > > Klemp's nonsense and
                        > > heavy handed control tactics.
                        > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                        > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                        > > being bound to dogma.
                        > > HK side-steps delivering
                        > > on his promises of protection
                        > > and never has anything
                        > > profound to share. And,
                        > > where are those Higher
                        > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                        > > yardsticks in measuring
                        > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                        > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                        > > the long-con and is, thus,
                        > > stingy and self-serving.
                        > >
                        > > Harold goes on to say that
                        > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                        > > on the path to God instead
                        > > of being stepping stones."
                        > > Apparently, being creative
                        > > and spontaneous and
                        > > following "Inner Nudges"
                        > > and/or "Signs" are not
                        > > permitted if it conflicts
                        > > with the LEM's outer,
                        > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                        > >
                        > > The LEM states that, "We
                        > > are here to learn." However,
                        > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                        > > from others since he never
                        > > listens? He's the Top goD
                        > > and doesn't partake in
                        > > two-way dialogues with
                        > > those under his authority.
                        > >
                        > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                        > > and unloving as he continues
                        > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                        > > believe that if they sit still
                        > > and breathe only enough to
                        > > sustain life that they may
                        > > well dodge the lightning
                        > > strikes of irksome change."
                        > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                        > > like KAL! However, by doing
                        > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                        > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                        > > Don't EKists still die of all
                        > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                        > > that could have be averted
                        > > if they had gotten proper
                        > > and immediate care? Sure!
                        > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                        > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                        > > are meaningless... unless
                        > > you've given this Black
                        > > Magician power over you!
                        > >
                        > > But, it seems that HK
                        > > has something else stuck
                        > > in his craw. It seems to
                        > > me that Klemp doesn't
                        > > like his 7ths just sitting
                        > > still and Contemplating
                        > > or HUing, and enjoying
                        > > life. But why shouldn't
                        > > they take it easy after
                        > > 40 years of doing PR
                        > > work for Eckankar!
                        > >
                        > > So, what does Klemp
                        > > the All compassionate,
                        > > loving, positive, and
                        > > empathetic icon of EK
                        > > conclude?
                        > >
                        > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                        > > refuses to adhere to
                        > > the ECK Guidelines
                        > > needs to be addressed
                        > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                        > > I wonder what that
                        > > really means? Well,
                        > > unless you're already
                        > > a 7th you can kiss that
                        > > next initiation good-bye
                        > > for like 10-20 years!
                        > >
                        > > Klemp continues to say,
                        > > "These are big stakes!
                        > > Continued refusal means
                        > > it's time for a replacement
                        > > to step in. A change is
                        > > due. Change. isn't it
                        > > funny how we have come
                        > > full circle?" No! It's not
                        > > really funny. Klemp
                        > > abuses the concept
                        > > of "change" and makes
                        > > it into a misnomer.
                        > >
                        > > What "changes" are there
                        > > in Eckankar? The same
                        > > old things are merely
                        > > revisited, updated, dusted
                        > > off and made to seem
                        > > "new." It's all a facade,
                        > > smoke and mirrors, and
                        > > a game of pretend by
                        > > creating brightly colored
                        > > straws to grab at and
                        > > cling to when drowning.
                        > >
                        > > Too bad that EKists are
                        > > so deluded and needy
                        > > and aren't able to read
                        > > between the lines and
                        > > see the real truth behind
                        > > Klemp's words and methods.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus

                      • Russ Rodnick
                        Janice, I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member.  I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and
                        Message 11 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Janice,

                          I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

                          I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

                          That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                          On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                          I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

                          Later,
                          Russ


                          From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                           
                          Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                           
                          Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                           
                          That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                           
                          In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                           
                           I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                           
                          The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                           
                          It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                           
                          When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                           
                          Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                           
                          I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                          --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                           
                          Hello Janice,
                          Thanks for the interesting
                          reply and the sharing of
                          insights and experiences.
                          I really really enjoyed it
                          all.

                          The reason why someone
                          knew you received your
                          pink slip is because the
                          RESA gets an initiation
                          eligibility list where he/
                          she will mark yea/nay
                          for an initiation. When
                          the yea is checked the
                          ESC (membership services)
                          will more than likely issue
                          the pink slip for the initiation.
                          Or, the file has been red
                          flagged for some reason.
                          Klemp, I'm told, will put
                          a temporary hold on higher
                          initiations. Maybe it's due
                          to pending requirements
                          for training/retraining.
                          The ESC will notify the
                          RESA when the pink slip
                          is sent.

                          Most Eckists don't know
                          how the initiation process
                          works.

                          The RESA has a membership
                          list generated by the ESC
                          for all those EKists in their
                          region and it will show
                          initiation level, one's status
                          and date of membership
                          among other info. If a
                          new person sends in a
                          membership form to the
                          ESC from anywhere in
                          the RESA's region the RESA
                          will be notified of who
                          they are and their mailing
                          address.

                          I was glad Ford Johnson
                          wrote his book and that
                          I was told about it by an
                          Eckist who is still an H.I.
                          The Irony is that he was
                          doing Public Information
                          and was quite the gossip.

                          I always was the skeptic
                          and had trouble with a lot
                          of what I saw and experienced
                          around H.I.s.

                          When I was a lower initiate
                          I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                          spiritual nor anywhere close
                          to being enlightened. There
                          were too many contradictions,
                          restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                          Once you're an EK member
                          the next step is to get you
                          to become a volunteer on
                          HK's sales team.

                          I always wondered how
                          was there an "inner" connection
                          to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                          were still smoking and
                          drinking alcohol, but
                          getting promoted with
                          more initiations? I knew
                          of two 5ths who smoked
                          and drank and got pink
                          slips for the 6th. It's clear
                          that Klemp knows nothing
                          unless informed via phone
                          or snailmail... email now!

                          Yes, Janice, we were the
                          ones awakened to the Truth
                          while all of those "Higher"
                          (pretend) Initiates are still
                          sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                          become very skilled at
                          regurgitating the PR and
                          at facilitating and public
                          speaking. But, H.I.s have
                          no idea of what it's like
                          to be Free thinkers and
                          free of religion and of the
                          EK Hierarchy. They think
                          that their "spiritual experiences"
                          are unique when these
                          are common and similar
                          experiences that all religious
                          seekers have had... even
                          Christians!

                          Yes, we needed Eckankar
                          in order to fill a void and
                          to learn some important
                          lessons about ourselves
                          and about religion in general.

                          IMO, Those who left
                          Eckankar but still have
                          a need for religion, haven't
                          really learned that they
                          will never find answers
                          via a group consciousness
                          or via a guru/master.
                          True, it is nice to know
                          people of like mind and
                          to share things, but this
                          can be a bad thing as well
                          if we become too attached
                          or lazy and want to play
                          follow the leader again.

                          It all comes down to one's
                          private and personal experiences
                          and inner revelations with
                          oneSelf and with whatever
                          catalyst of "divine" creation.

                          Prometheus

                          Janice wrote:
                          I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                          Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                          I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                          Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                          How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                          That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                          The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                          Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                          I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                          I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                          I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                          Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                          Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                          Blessings to all of you.


                          prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                          > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                          > in Satsang Society "settler"
                          > and "explorer" positions at
                          > the EK Centers would trip
                          > over their egos and go on
                          > power trips. Many seemed
                          > cliquish and would huddle
                          > together. Then, again, some
                          > weren't all that friendly or
                          > were very introverted and
                          > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                          > including the clerics, to
                          > greet and talk to all of the
                          > new or seldom seen faces
                          > that showed up. Many
                          > only saw other Eckists at
                          > the monthly EWS and this
                          > was a time to catch up on
                          > things. This is why I'd
                          > suggest going to lunch
                          > after the EWS and socializing.
                          >
                          > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                          > True? I think so!
                          >
                          > Klemp's volunteer duties
                          > and requirements for Eckists
                          > means that they must take
                          > on extroverted roles in
                          > order to become H.I.s.
                          > Eckists must force themselves,
                          > against their innate natures,
                          > to become extroverted and
                          > egocentric. These leadership
                          > requirements create conflict,
                          > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                          > Thus, this imbalance that
                          > Klemp has created and
                          > reenforces aids him in
                          > the brainwashing of his
                          > flock to have programmed
                          > religious faith, beliefs, and
                          > mystical experiences. But,
                          > this has its toll and is why
                          > many long-time H.I.s choose
                          > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                          > and his anal control tactics.
                          >
                          > Sometimes, at special
                          > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                          > and mini retreats the
                          > long-time H.I.s, former
                          > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                          > members would gather
                          > around and gossip about
                          > those absent or present.
                          > Only, it wasn't seen as
                          > gossip but rationalized
                          > as more of an evaluative/
                          > investigative discussion
                          > for possible initiation
                          > recommendation or for
                          > a Satsang position appointment.
                          > They wanted to know,
                          > from sources who knew
                          > them, if there were problems
                          > with these EKists and, if
                          > so, what the specific details
                          > were. It was all ego driven
                          > and subjective because we
                          > were all volunteers and
                          > had family and personal
                          > lives too. But, it did weed
                          > out those who weren't as
                          > well indoctrinated....
                          > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                          > crap (busy work) was pretty
                          > much always a waste of
                          > time so, in the long run,
                          > enthusiasm was probably
                          > more important than acting
                          > the part. The Satsang positions
                          > and duties kept people
                          > busy, gave them a purpose
                          > and made them feel good,
                          > although, very stressed out.
                          >
                          > The Initiation game has made
                          > Eckists struggle with denying
                          > how much more they want of
                          > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                          >
                          > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                          > that an ESA told you that the
                          > people at the EK Center were
                          > crazy. That just isn't done
                          > and is part of HK's agenda
                          > of Silence and retraining.
                          >
                          > There's that old Buddha quote
                          > that Eckists sing and talk about
                          > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                          > and this is supposed to keep
                          > ECKists quiet or else they will
                          > sometimes get reported:
                          > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                          > this I ask myself before I
                          > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                          > following this criteria is very
                          > subjective and could or would
                          > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                          > conservations.
                          >
                          > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                          > may be "true" for you and
                          > for most people but not
                          > not for all people. And, is
                          > it "necessary" to exclaim
                          > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                          > this within earshot of people
                          > who aren't feeling well or
                          > who can't enjoy the day?
                          > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                          > to keep the critics of his
                          > policies and of his H.I.s
                          > to a minimum.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                          > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                          > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                          > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                          > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                          > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                          > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                          > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                          > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                          > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                          >
                          > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                          > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                          >
                          > Good to be away from it.
                          >
                          > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                          >
                          > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                          > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                          > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                          > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                          > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                          > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                          > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                          > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                          > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                          > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                          > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                          > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                          > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                          > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                          > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                          > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                          > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                          > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                          > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                          > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                          > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                          > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                          > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                          > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                          > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                          > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                          > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                          > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                          >
                          > Russ wrote:
                          > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                          > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                          > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                          > made him so popular in the eck community.
                          >
                          > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                          > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                          > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                          > things.
                          >
                          > Russ
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                          > What has me ROFLMAO is
                          > that Klemp has enough of
                          > a problem that he used it
                          > in the ASK The MASTER
                          > section of the H.I. Letter!
                          > And, it was the only question!
                          > They had, supposedly, an
                          > H.I. write-in and point out
                          > the problem. No name given.
                          >
                          > I remember when I had
                          > to deal with some older
                          > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                          > coordinator and director
                          > positions and it was
                          > impossible to get this
                          > one to follow the Guidelines
                          > on EK Worship Services
                          > (EWS). Many long-time
                          > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                          > Guidelines and my
                          > RESA turned a blind-
                          > eye to it all. We had
                          > so many former RESAs
                          > in volunteer positions
                          > that it was impossible
                          > to get them on the
                          > same page and to follow
                          > procedures. I think
                          > that some were just
                          > burned out and tired
                          > of Klemp's B.S. but
                          > didn't want to leave.
                          > Maybe they had too
                          > many friendships to
                          > lose. Plus, let's face
                          > it. A lot of these people
                          > are losers in the real
                          > world but are big shots
                          > in Eckankar. Those
                          > Higher Initiations are
                          > a big deal to the ego!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                          > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                          > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                          > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                          > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                          > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                          >
                          > Non ;)
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello All,
                          > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                          > > Letter I've read that
                          > > Klemp still needs to
                          > > update his Guidelines
                          > > for the H.I.s in the
                          > > field and chastise
                          > > those who are slow
                          > > to get with the program.
                          > >
                          > > Many long-time H.I.s
                          > > want the freedom
                          > > of Soul to be more
                          > > individualistic,
                          > > spontaneous, and
                          > > creative by thinking
                          > > they (Soul) can operate
                          > > outside-of-the-box,
                          > > thus, being channels
                          > > for the ECK. Klemp
                          > > has previously stated
                          > > that he's imperfect,
                          > > but that's not the case
                          > > with the ECK, correct?
                          > >
                          > > Why, then, shouldn't
                          > > their current (Present)
                          > > Inner EK Guidance be
                          > > followed versus that
                          > > of outer set-in-stone
                          > > ESC Guidelines printed
                          > > in the Past and approved
                          > > by a committee of imperfect
                          > > people on a plane ruled
                          > > by the KAL?
                          > >
                          > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                          > > that freedom of expression
                          > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                          > > version of ECKankar.
                          > > It's a hierarchy where
                          > > everything is spelled
                          > > out and controlled
                          > > by him and his secret
                          > > RESA police, plus, all
                          > > field work must be
                          > > approved via the
                          > > current Guidelines.
                          > >
                          > > Many inexperienced
                          > > EKists like the idea of
                          > > being told how to do
                          > > this or that and what
                          > > approved books to use
                          > > and what to say and
                          > > other details to make
                          > > the promotion of
                          > > Eckankar easier.
                          > >
                          > > But the real point the
                          > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                          > > is to have EK PR more
                          > > consistent and cookie
                          > > cutter looking/sounding
                          > > for the public.
                          > >
                          > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                          > > are like following a
                          > > recipe set-in-stone
                          > > that disregards individual
                          > > or regional tastes and
                          > > disallows any additions
                          > > or omissions of other
                          > > ingredients, methods,
                          > > and/or spices.
                          > >
                          > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                          > > are about H.I.s resisting
                          > > change. He says they "rock
                          > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                          > > that "it's all about fear."
                          > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                          > > and "reinforce in each other
                          > > a group's opposition to
                          > > anything new." Strange
                          > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                          > > subject to fear since he's
                          > > supposed to protect them!
                          > > This is how the KAL works.
                          > > Klemp is his agent.
                          > >
                          > > However, the real 'change'
                          > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                          > > Klemp's nonsense and
                          > > heavy handed control tactics.
                          > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                          > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                          > > being bound to dogma.
                          > > HK side-steps delivering
                          > > on his promises of protection
                          > > and never has anything
                          > > profound to share. And,
                          > > where are those Higher
                          > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                          > > yardsticks in measuring
                          > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                          > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                          > > the long-con and is, thus,
                          > > stingy and self-serving.
                          > >
                          > > Harold goes on to say that
                          > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                          > > on the path to God instead
                          > > of being stepping stones."
                          > > Apparently, being creative
                          > > and spontaneous and
                          > > following "Inner Nudges"
                          > > and/or "Signs" are not
                          > > permitted if it conflicts
                          > > with the LEM's outer,
                          > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                          > >
                          > > The LEM states that, "We
                          > > are here to learn." However,
                          > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                          > > from others since he never
                          > > listens? He's the Top goD
                          > > and doesn't partake in
                          > > two-way dialogues with
                          > > those under his authority.
                          > >
                          > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                          > > and unloving as he continues
                          > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                          > > believe that if they sit still
                          > > and breathe only enough to
                          > > sustain life that they may
                          > > well dodge the lightning
                          > > strikes of irksome change."
                          > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                          > > like KAL! However, by doing
                          > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                          > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                          > > Don't EKists still die of all
                          > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                          > > that could have be averted
                          > > if they had gotten proper
                          > > and immediate care? Sure!
                          > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                          > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                          > > are meaningless... unless
                          > > you've given this Black
                          > > Magician power over you!
                          > >
                          > > But, it seems that HK
                          > > has something else stuck
                          > > in his craw. It seems to
                          > > me that Klemp doesn't
                          > > like his 7ths just sitting
                          > > still and Contemplating
                          > > or HUing, and enjoying
                          > > life. But why shouldn't
                          > > they take it easy after
                          > > 40 years of doing PR
                          > > work for Eckankar!
                          > >
                          > > So, what does Klemp
                          > > the All compassionate,
                          > > loving, positive, and
                          > > empathetic icon of EK
                          > > conclude?
                          > >
                          > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                          > > refuses to adhere to
                          > > the ECK Guidelines
                          > > needs to be addressed
                          > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                          > > I wonder what that
                          > > really means? Well,
                          > > unless you're already
                          > > a 7th you can kiss that
                          > > next initiation good-bye
                          > > for like 10-20 years!
                          > >
                          > > Klemp continues to say,
                          > > "These are big stakes!
                          > > Continued refusal means
                          > > it's time for a replacement
                          > > to step in. A change is
                          > > due. Change. isn't it
                          > > funny how we have come
                          > > full circle?" No! It's not
                          > > really funny. Klemp
                          > > abuses the concept
                          > > of "change" and makes
                          > > it into a misnomer.
                          > >
                          > > What "changes" are there
                          > > in Eckankar? The same
                          > > old things are merely
                          > > revisited, updated, dusted
                          > > off and made to seem
                          > > "new." It's all a facade,
                          > > smoke and mirrors, and
                          > > a game of pretend by
                          > > creating brightly colored
                          > > straws to grab at and
                          > > cling to when drowning.
                          > >
                          > > Too bad that EKists are
                          > > so deluded and needy
                          > > and aren't able to read
                          > > between the lines and
                          > > see the real truth behind
                          > > Klemp's words and methods.
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                          >



                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Russ, Janice, and All, The initiation eligibility list is generated on eckists after they have completed so many years and/or requirements as members in
                          Message 12 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
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                            Hello Russ, Janice, and All,
                            The initiation eligibility list
                            is generated on eckists
                            after they have completed
                            so many years and/or
                            requirements as members
                            in good standing. Delays
                            in payment of membership
                            fees (i.e. breaks) or rest
                            periods will affect people's
                            names from appearing
                            on the eligibility list.

                            Sometimes Eckists can call
                            Membership Services with
                            concern that they've been
                            passed over. If, in fact, they've
                            waited longer than normal
                            and there are No red flags
                            in their file sometimes the
                            ESC will generate a pink
                            slip without RESA input.
                            Plus, it always helps to
                            know people in high places.
                            I suggested doing this to
                            a 4th who had been waiting
                            longer than normal and
                            within a month or so she
                            got her pink slip. Funny!
                            BTW- I swore her to secrecy
                            and Not to mention my name!

                            Many H.I.s don't know about
                            how the EK Initiation system
                            really works because it's very
                            secretive. If anyone shared this
                            info they would be banned from
                            holding any Satsang positions,
                            receiving any more initiations,
                            and have their file at the ESC
                            red flagged. [Klemp generally
                            states that those EKists divulging
                            secrets will have their spiritual
                            growth halted, but doesn't say
                            how it's done].

                            In any case, I've known people
                            who suspected their files were
                            red flagged and was told that
                            when calling into the ESC to
                            renew their membership that
                            when their data came up that
                            there was a long pause and
                            the tone of voice of the staffer
                            changed.

                            Eckists should know that they
                            are under scrutiny at all times
                            and certain innocent comments
                            or behaviour will stand out to
                            those judging and looking to
                            find fault. The devil is in the
                            details. For Eckists to know
                            and follow the current Guidelines,
                            the Four Zoas, to volunteer
                            and always sound like an EK
                            Brochure is still not enough.
                            They need to make friendships
                            with the H.I.s in their region,
                            with their RESA, and with those
                            at the ESC via seminars. One
                            has to psyche themselves
                            into seeing all of the flawed,
                            ego driven, power hungry
                            H.I.s as their friend whether
                            it's true or not. And, you still
                            have to watch what you say.

                            An example of watching what
                            you say is to never bring up
                            Darwin's name. You don't know
                            whether or not someone within
                            earshot is going to tell the RESA
                            about this. There are RESA spys
                            and members of the RESA's
                            secret police everywhere.
                            They might be in "official" roles
                            but they are used in the same
                            way. And, don't be talking about
                            and promoting Metaphysics,
                            psyche readings, etc. around
                            Eckists or selling some product,
                            especially, at the EK Center!
                            This will get one's next initiation
                            delayed as well.

                            As I stated before, those
                            EKists involved with charting
                            their ancestry are taking
                            a chance on being passed
                            over too. Eckists believe in
                            reincarnation and Soul, thus,
                            tracing ancestry and getting
                            caught up with one's "heritage"
                            is seen as a moot point, a
                            distraction, and not being
                            well grounded in the ECK
                            teachings. It's seen as a
                            detriment and will prevent
                            one from "advancing" to that
                            next coveted EK initiation.

                            The initiation game, whether
                            Eckists want to admit to it
                            or not, is the most powerful
                            driving force within Eckankar.

                            Prometheus

                            Russ wrote:
                            Janice,

                            I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member.

                            I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'.

                            That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                            On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                            I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know.

                            Later,
                            Russ




                            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks again Prometheus,
                             
                            > The very fact that this resa thought I was asking about my own initiations and he had to insist that he had said nothing about me was proof that what I had been told,  was in fact true.  I didn't ask about my own and I said nothing about anything he might have said.  I was asking about how all initiations came about.  Yes, the initial info I got was the computer generated the list and  then the locals were questioned.
                            >  
                            > For the longest time I did consider writing Minneapolis about my experiences.  The reason I finally decided against it was, I thought it would only help eckankar sharpen it's con game by telling them about it's weaknesses.  Why help people become better liars and cheaters?
                            >  
                            > It never occurred to me to try and take action about the resa screaming at me.  He was clearly out of control.  When I am dealing with a person whose behavior is so erratic, I just can't take their opinions seriously.  Besides, it was just more proof that the whole org ran like a circus filled with clowns and the bigger the nut job, the more likely they would advance.  I don't think klemp himself would give me a straight answer for what I ask and most likely if I got one at all, it wouldn't be an intelligent one.
                            >  
                            > According to what you are saying even HI's didn't know the truth about initiations. I take it only those in some kind of local leadership roles were asked about individuals.
                            >  
                            > After hearing what  you say, I feel very lucky that I found out as early as I did.  It must be a closely guarded secret. Until now, I assumed that all HI's did know and I couldn't understand why the lies about it kept being perpetuated down. 
                            >  
                            > You have given me just what I needed to know.  Most eckist remain in the dark no matter how long they are in.  Wow, that's a mind blower.  You have to admit, it is quite an ingenious con.  I do appreciate your frank answer. 
                            >  
                            > As always, thanks for all you give.
                            >  

                            prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Janice,
                            > Most H.I.s have no idea
                            > how the EK Initiation
                            > process works. It's sad
                            > because there are some
                            > really nice and gentile
                            > chelas who have been
                            > passed over on the 5th.
                            > Some died as 4ths when
                            > they should have had
                            > some happiness, peace
                            > of mind, and contentment
                            > by receiving that 5th.
                            > I've know several eckists
                            > where this has happened.
                            > It was no big deal to give
                            > them their 5th initiation,
                            > but some RESAs are mean-
                            > spirited, lack empathy,
                            > and are petty. They've
                            > gotten caught up in HK's
                            > game. All Eckists should
                            > get the 5th after no more
                            > than 20 years, especially,
                            > when they participate
                            > and are kept current on
                            > their membership. However,
                            > that's not the way the
                            > power trip is played by
                            > some RESAs.
                            >
                            > I hate to admit this but
                            > I helped the RESA when
                            > asked about people. I
                            > was quizzed about those
                            > up for, usually, the 5th
                            > and 6th initiation. I was
                            > asked about what the EKist
                            > said, how they acted and
                            > conducted themselves
                            > and any unusual things
                            > that I noticed about
                            > their behavior or performance.
                            > And then I was asked for
                            > my opinion. Unfortunately
                            > my replies, I know, had
                            > some initiations delayed
                            > for these people and I
                            > regret that I got caught
                            > up in this petty mind game.
                            > Some of these people are
                            > still H.I.s and have no idea
                            > why they had to wait so
                            > long for their 5th or 6th.
                            > Many probably think that
                            > the Mahanta was testing
                            > them! LOL! On the other
                            > hand maybe some of them,
                            > by now, have been asked
                            > to evaluate people too.
                            > I wonder if they put two
                            > and two together and
                            > figured it out, unless,
                            > they were told why like
                            > I had been told.
                            >
                            > Why, though, should
                            > Klemp have a system
                            > for initiations that judges
                            > and punishes Eckists
                            > based upon our evaluations?
                            > Where's that Inner Knowingness
                            > of the Mahanta?
                            >
                            > Besides, a 5th is no big
                            > deal, and it's not like one
                            > becomes a cleric automatically
                            > with a 5th. Really, being
                            > an 5th is no more being
                            > an official representative
                            > of Eckankar than is a 4th.
                            >
                            > Yes, most Eckists have
                            > no idea that a computer
                            > generated eligibility list
                            > is sent to the RESA by the
                            > ESC and that phone calls
                            > are made asking questions
                            > where subjective answers
                            > are given and that the RESA
                            > uses these to either approve
                            > and give a recommendation
                            > for initiation or doesn't.
                            > However, I will say that
                            > any "No" has to have an
                            > valid reason. The ESC
                            > usually follows the RESAs'
                            > recommendations.
                            >
                            > BTW- Janice, I think that
                            > your RESA approved of
                            > your initiation because
                            > he felt guilty for having
                            > yelled at you, plus, you
                            > could have reported him
                            > to the ESC. Maybe the
                            > initiation approval was
                            > meant to appease you?
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            > Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.
                            >
                            > Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person?
                            >
                            > That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless.
                            >
                            > In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?
                            >
                            > I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all.
                            >
                            > The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his time and hung up.
                            >
                            > It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if that was part of it.
                            >
                            > When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It was enough.
                            >
                            > Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.
                            >
                            > I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Janice,
                            > Thanks for the interesting
                            > reply and the sharing of
                            > insights and experiences.
                            > I really really enjoyed it
                            > all.
                            >
                            > The reason why someone
                            > knew you received your
                            > pink slip is because the
                            > RESA gets an initiation
                            > eligibility list where he/
                            > she will mark yea/nay
                            > for an initiation. When
                            > the yea is checked the
                            > ESC (membership services)
                            > will more than likely issue
                            > the pink slip for the initiation.
                            > Or, the file has been red
                            > flagged for some reason.
                            > Klemp, I'm told, will put
                            > a temporary hold on higher
                            > initiations. Maybe it's due
                            > to pending requirements
                            > for training/retraining.
                            > The ESC will notify the
                            > RESA when the pink slip
                            > is sent.
                            >
                            > Most Eckists don't know
                            > how the initiation process
                            > works.
                            >
                            > The RESA has a membership
                            > list generated by the ESC
                            > for all those EKists in their
                            > region and it will show
                            > initiation level, one's status
                            > and date of membership
                            > among other info. If a
                            > new person sends in a
                            > membership form to the
                            > ESC from anywhere in
                            > the RESA's region the RESA
                            > will be notified of who
                            > they are and their mailing
                            > address.
                            >
                            > I was glad Ford Johnson
                            > wrote his book and that
                            > I was told about it by an
                            > Eckist who is still an H.I.
                            > The Irony is that he was
                            > doing Public Information
                            > and was quite the gossip.
                            >
                            > I always was the skeptic
                            > and had trouble with a lot
                            > of what I saw and experienced
                            > around H.I.s.
                            >
                            > When I was a lower initiate
                            > I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                            > spiritual nor anywhere close
                            > to being enlightened. There
                            > were too many contradictions,
                            > restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                            > Once you're an EK member
                            > the next step is to get you
                            > to become a volunteer on
                            > HK's sales team.
                            >
                            > I always wondered how
                            > was there an "inner" connection
                            > to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                            > were still smoking and
                            > drinking alcohol, but
                            > getting promoted with
                            > more initiations? I knew
                            > of two 5ths who smoked
                            > and drank and got pink
                            > slips for the 6th. It's clear
                            > that Klemp knows nothing
                            > unless informed via phone
                            > or snailmail... email now!
                            >
                            > Yes, Janice, we were the
                            > ones awakened to the Truth
                            > while all of those "Higher"
                            > (pretend) Initiates are still
                            > sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                            > become very skilled at
                            > regurgitating the PR and
                            > at facilitating and public
                            > speaking. But, H.I.s have
                            > no idea of what it's like
                            > to be Free thinkers and
                            > free of religion and of the
                            > EK Hierarchy. They think
                            > that their "spiritual experiences"
                            > are unique when these
                            > are common and similar
                            > experiences that all religious
                            > seekers have had... even
                            > Christians!
                            >
                            > Yes, we needed Eckankar
                            > in order to fill a void and
                            > to learn some important
                            > lessons about ourselves
                            > and about religion in general.
                            >
                            > IMO, Those who left
                            > Eckankar but still have
                            > a need for religion, haven't
                            > really learned that they
                            > will never find answers
                            > via a group consciousness
                            > or via a guru/master.
                            > True, it is nice to know
                            > people of like mind and
                            > to share things, but this
                            > can be a bad thing as well
                            > if we become too attached
                            > or lazy and want to play
                            > follow the leader again.
                            >
                            > It all comes down to one's
                            > private and personal experiences
                            > and inner revelations with
                            > oneSelf and with whatever
                            > catalyst of "divine" creation.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            > Janice wrote:
                            > I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.
                            >
                            > Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.
                            >
                            > I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.
                            >
                            > Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.
                            >
                            > How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.
                            >
                            > That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.
                            >
                            > The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.
                            >
                            > Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.
                            >
                            > I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.
                            >
                            > I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.
                            >
                            > I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.
                            >
                            > Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.
                            >
                            > Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.
                            >
                            > Blessings to all of you.
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                            > > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                            > > in Satsang Society "settler"
                            > > and "explorer" positions at
                            > > the EK Centers would trip
                            > > over their egos and go on
                            > > power trips. Many seemed
                            > > cliquish and would huddle
                            > > together. Then, again, some
                            > > weren't all that friendly or
                            > > were very introverted and
                            > > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                            > > including the clerics, to
                            > > greet and talk to all of the
                            > > new or seldom seen faces
                            > > that showed up. Many
                            > > only saw other Eckists at
                            > > the monthly EWS and this
                            > > was a time to catch up on
                            > > things. This is why I'd
                            > > suggest going to lunch
                            > > after the EWS and socializing.
                            > >
                            > > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                            > > True? I think so!
                            > >
                            > > Klemp's volunteer duties
                            > > and requirements for Eckists
                            > > means that they must take
                            > > on extroverted roles in
                            > > order to become H.I.s.
                            > > Eckists must force themselves,
                            > > against their innate natures,
                            > > to become extroverted and
                            > > egocentric. These leadership
                            > > requirements create conflict,
                            > > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                            > > Thus, this imbalance that
                            > > Klemp has created and
                            > > reenforces aids him in
                            > > the brainwashing of his
                            > > flock to have programmed
                            > > religious faith, beliefs, and
                            > > mystical experiences. But,
                            > > this has its toll and is why
                            > > many long-time H.I.s choose
                            > > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                            > > and his anal control tactics.
                            > >
                            > > Sometimes, at special
                            > > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                            > > and mini retreats the
                            > > long-time H.I.s, former
                            > > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                            > > members would gather
                            > > around and gossip about
                            > > those absent or present.
                            > > Only, it wasn't seen as
                            > > gossip but rationalized
                            > > as more of an evaluative/
                            > > investigative discussion
                            > > for possible initiation
                            > > recommendation or for
                            > > a Satsang position appointment.
                            > > They wanted to know,
                            > > from sources who knew
                            > > them, if there were problems
                            > > with these EKists and, if
                            > > so, what the specific details
                            > > were. It was all ego driven
                            > > and subjective because we
                            > > were all volunteers and
                            > > had family and personal
                            > > lives too. But, it did weed
                            > > out those who weren't as
                            > > well indoctrinated....
                            > > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                            > > crap (busy work) was pretty
                            > > much always a waste of
                            > > time so, in the long run,
                            > > enthusiasm was probably
                            > > more important than acting
                            > > the part. The Satsang positions
                            > > and duties kept people
                            > > busy, gave them a purpose
                            > > and made them feel good,
                            > > although, very stressed out.
                            > >
                            > > The Initiation game has made
                            > > Eckists struggle with denying
                            > > how much more they want of
                            > > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                            > >
                            > > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                            > > that an ESA told you that the
                            > > people at the EK Center were
                            > > crazy. That just isn't done
                            > > and is part of HK's agenda
                            > > of Silence and retraining.
                            > >
                            > > There's that old Buddha quote
                            > > that Eckists sing and talk about
                            > > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                            > > and this is supposed to keep
                            > > ECKists quiet or else they will
                            > > sometimes get reported:
                            > > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                            > > this I ask myself before I
                            > > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                            > > following this criteria is very
                            > > subjective and could or would
                            > > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                            > > conservations.
                            > >
                            > > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                            > > may be "true" for you and
                            > > for most people but not
                            > > not for all people. And, is
                            > > it "necessary" to exclaim
                            > > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                            > > this within earshot of people
                            > > who aren't feeling well or
                            > > who can't enjoy the day?
                            > > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                            > > to keep the critics of his
                            > > policies and of his H.I.s
                            > > to a minimum.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                            > > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                            > > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                            > > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                            > > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                            > > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                            > > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                            > > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                            > > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                            > > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                            > >
                            > > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                            > > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                            > >
                            > > Good to be away from it.
                            > >
                            > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                            > > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                            > > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                            > > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                            > > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                            > > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                            > > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                            > > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                            > > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                            > > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                            > > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                            > > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                            > > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                            > > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                            > > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                            > > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                            > > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                            > > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                            > > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                            > > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                            > > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                            > > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                            > > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                            > > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                            > > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                            > > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                            > > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                            > > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                            > >
                            > > Russ wrote:
                            > > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                            > > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                            > > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                            > > made him so popular in the eck community.
                            > >
                            > > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                            > > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                            > > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                            > > things.
                            > >
                            > > Russ
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > prometheus wrote:
                            > > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                            > > What has me ROFLMAO is
                            > > that Klemp has enough of
                            > > a problem that he used it
                            > > in the ASK The MASTER
                            > > section of the H.I. Letter!
                            > > And, it was the only question!
                            > > They had, supposedly, an
                            > > H.I. write-in and point out
                            > > the problem. No name given.
                            > >
                            > > I remember when I had
                            > > to deal with some older
                            > > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                            > > coordinator and director
                            > > positions and it was
                            > > impossible to get this
                            > > one to follow the Guidelines
                            > > on EK Worship Services
                            > > (EWS). Many long-time
                            > > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                            > > Guidelines and my
                            > > RESA turned a blind-
                            > > eye to it all. We had
                            > > so many former RESAs
                            > > in volunteer positions
                            > > that it was impossible
                            > > to get them on the
                            > > same page and to follow
                            > > procedures. I think
                            > > that some were just
                            > > burned out and tired
                            > > of Klemp's B.S. but
                            > > didn't want to leave.
                            > > Maybe they had too
                            > > many friendships to
                            > > lose. Plus, let's face
                            > > it. A lot of these people
                            > > are losers in the real
                            > > world but are big shots
                            > > in Eckankar. Those
                            > > Higher Initiations are
                            > > a big deal to the ego!
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                            > > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                            > > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                            > > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                            > > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                            > > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                            > >
                            > > Non ;)
                            > >
                            > > prometheus wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hello All,
                            > > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                            > > > Letter I've read that
                            > > > Klemp still needs to
                            > > > update his Guidelines
                            > > > for the H.I.s in the
                            > > > field and chastise
                            > > > those who are slow
                            > > > to get with the program.
                            > > >
                            > > > Many long-time H.I.s
                            > > > want the freedom
                            > > > of Soul to be more
                            > > > individualistic,
                            > > > spontaneous, and
                            > > > creative by thinking
                            > > > they (Soul) can operate
                            > > > outside-of-the-box,
                            > > > thus, being channels
                            > > > for the ECK. Klemp
                            > > > has previously stated
                            > > > that he's imperfect,
                            > > > but that's not the case
                            > > > with the ECK, correct?
                            > > >
                            > > > Why, then, shouldn't
                            > > > their current (Present)
                            > > > Inner EK Guidance be
                            > > > followed versus that
                            > > > of outer set-in-stone
                            > > > ESC Guidelines printed
                            > > > in the Past and approved
                            > > > by a committee of imperfect
                            > > > people on a plane ruled
                            > > > by the KAL?
                            > > >
                            > > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                            > > > that freedom of expression
                            > > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                            > > > version of ECKankar.
                            > > > It's a hierarchy where
                            > > > everything is spelled
                            > > > out and controlled
                            > > > by him and his secret
                            > > > RESA police, plus, all
                            > > > field work must be
                            > > > approved via the
                            > > > current Guidelines.
                            > > >
                            > > > Many inexperienced
                            > > > EKists like the idea of
                            > > > being told how to do
                            > > > this or that and what
                            > > > approved books to use
                            > > > and what to say and
                            > > > other details to make
                            > > > the promotion of
                            > > > Eckankar easier.
                            > > >
                            > > > But the real point the
                            > > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                            > > > is to have EK PR more
                            > > > consistent and cookie
                            > > > cutter looking/sounding
                            > > > for the public.
                            > > >
                            > > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                            > > > are like following a
                            > > > recipe set-in-stone
                            > > > that disregards individual
                            > > > or regional tastes and
                            > > > disallows any additions
                            > > > or omissions of other
                            > > > ingredients, methods,
                            > > > and/or spices.
                            > > >
                            > > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                            > > > are about H.I.s resisting
                            > > > change. He says they "rock
                            > > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                            > > > that "it's all about fear."
                            > > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                            > > > and "reinforce in each other
                            > > > a group's opposition to
                            > > > anything new." Strange
                            > > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                            > > > subject to fear since he's
                            > > > supposed to protect them!
                            > > > This is how the KAL works.
                            > > > Klemp is his agent.
                            > > >
                            > > > However, the real 'change'
                            > > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                            > > > Klemp's nonsense and
                            > > > heavy handed control tactics.
                            > > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                            > > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                            > > > being bound to dogma.
                            > > > HK side-steps delivering
                            > > > on his promises of protection
                            > > > and never has anything
                            > > > profound to share. And,
                            > > > where are those Higher
                            > > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                            > > > yardsticks in measuring
                            > > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                            > > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                            > > > the long-con and is, thus,
                            > > > stingy and self-serving.
                            > > >
                            > > > Harold goes on to say that
                            > > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                            > > > on the path to God instead
                            > > > of being stepping stones."
                            > > > Apparently, being creative
                            > > > and spontaneous and
                            > > > following "Inner Nudges"
                            > > > and/or "Signs" are not
                            > > > permitted if it conflicts
                            > > > with the LEM's outer,
                            > > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                            > > >
                            > > > The LEM states that, "We
                            > > > are here to learn." However,
                            > > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                            > > > from others since he never
                            > > > listens? He's the Top goD
                            > > > and doesn't partake in
                            > > > two-way dialogues with
                            > > > those under his authority.
                            > > >
                            > > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                            > > > and unloving as he continues
                            > > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                            > > > believe that if they sit still
                            > > > and breathe only enough to
                            > > > sustain life that they may
                            > > > well dodge the lightning
                            > > > strikes of irksome change."
                            > > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                            > > > like KAL! However, by doing
                            > > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                            > > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                            > > > Don't EKists still die of all
                            > > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                            > > > that could have be averted
                            > > > if they had gotten proper
                            > > > and immediate care? Sure!
                            > > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                            > > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                            > > > are meaningless... unless
                            > > > you've given this Black
                            > > > Magician power over you!
                            > > >
                            > > > But, it seems that HK
                            > > > has something else stuck
                            > > > in his craw. It seems to
                            > > > me that Klemp doesn't
                            > > > like his 7ths just sitting
                            > > > still and Contemplating
                            > > > or HUing, and enjoying
                            > > > life. But why shouldn't
                            > > > they take it easy after
                            > > > 40 years of doing PR
                            > > > work for Eckankar!
                            > > >
                            > > > So, what does Klemp
                            > > > the All compassionate,
                            > > > loving, positive, and
                            > > > empathetic icon of EK
                            > > > conclude?
                            > > >
                            > > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                            > > > refuses to adhere to
                            > > > the ECK Guidelines
                            > > > needs to be addressed
                            > > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                            > > > I wonder what that
                            > > > really means? Well,
                            > > > unless you're already
                            > > > a 7th you can kiss that
                            > > > next initiation good-bye
                            > > > for like 10-20 years!
                            > > >
                            > > > Klemp continues to say,
                            > > > "These are big stakes!
                            > > > Continued refusal means
                            > > > it's time for a replacement
                            > > > to step in. A change is
                            > > > due. Change. isn't it
                            > > > funny how we have come
                            > > > full circle?" No! It's not
                            > > > really funny. Klemp
                            > > > abuses the concept
                            > > > of "change" and makes
                            > > > it into a misnomer.
                            > > >
                            > > > What "changes" are there
                            > > > in Eckankar? The same
                            > > > old things are merely
                            > > > revisited, updated, dusted
                            > > > off and made to seem
                            > > > "new." It's all a facade,
                            > > > smoke and mirrors, and
                            > > > a game of pretend by
                            > > > creating brightly colored
                            > > > straws to grab at and
                            > > > cling to when drowning.
                            > > >
                            > > > Too bad that EKists are
                            > > > so deluded and needy
                            > > > and aren't able to read
                            > > > between the lines and
                            > > > see the real truth behind
                            > > > Klemp's words and methods.
                            > > >
                            > > > Prometheus
                            >
                          • Non
                            Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few
                            Message 13 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
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                              Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                              Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                              http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                              Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                              In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                              I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                              Blessings

                              Non ;)

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >Hello Janice,
                              Most H.I.s have no idea
                              how the EK Initiation
                              process works. It's sad
                              because there are some
                              really nice and gentile
                              chelas who have been
                              passed over on the 5th.
                              Some died as 4ths when
                              they should have had
                              some happiness, peace
                              of mind, and contentment
                              by receiving that 5th.
                              I've know several eckists
                              where this has happened.
                              It was no big deal to give
                              them their 5th initiation,
                              but some RESAs are mean-
                              spirited, lack empathy,
                              and are petty. They've
                              gotten caught up in HK's
                              game. All Eckists should
                              get the 5th after no more
                              than 20 years, especially,
                              when they participate
                              and are kept current on
                              their membership. However,
                              that's not the way the
                              power trip is played by
                              some RESAs.

                              I hate to admit this but
                              I helped the RESA when
                              asked about people. I
                              was quizzed about those
                              up for, usually, the 5th
                              and 6th initiation. I was
                              asked about what the EKist
                              said, how they acted and
                              conducted themselves
                              and any unusual things
                              that I noticed about
                              their behavior or performance.
                              And then I was asked for
                              my opinion. Unfortunately
                              my replies, I know, had
                              some initiations delayed
                              for these people and I
                              regret that I got caught
                              up in this petty mind game.
                              Some of these people are
                              still H.I.s and have no idea
                              why they had to wait so
                              long for their 5th or 6th.
                              Many probably think that
                              the Mahanta was testing
                              them! LOL! On the other
                              hand maybe some of them,
                              by now, have been asked
                              to evaluate people too.
                              I wonder if they put two
                              and two together and
                              figured it out, unless,
                              they were told why like
                              I had been told.

                              Why, though, should
                              Klemp have a system
                              for initiations that judges
                              and punishes Eckists
                              based upon our evaluations?
                              Where's that Inner Knowingness
                              of the Mahanta?

                              Besides, a 5th is no big
                              deal, and it's not like one
                              becomes a cleric automatically
                              with a 5th. Really, being
                              an 5th is no more being
                              an official representative
                              of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                              Yes, most Eckists have
                              no idea that a computer
                              generated eligibility list
                              is sent to the RESA by the
                              ESC and that phone calls
                              are made asking questions
                              where subjective answers
                              are given and that the RESA
                              uses these to either approve
                              and give a recommendation
                              for initiation or doesn't.
                              However, I will say that
                              any "No" has to have an
                              valid reason. The ESC
                              usually follows the RESAs'
                              recommendations.

                              BTW- Janice, I think that
                              your RESA approved of
                              your initiation because
                              he felt guilty for having
                              yelled at you, plus, you
                              could have reported him
                              to the ESC. Maybe the
                              initiation approval was
                              meant to appease you?

                              Prometheus



                              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                              Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                              teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                              person?

                              That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                              was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                              on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                              crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                              that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                              was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                              totally useless.

                              In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                              about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                              I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                              of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                              didn't use his name at all.

                              The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                              seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                              had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                              then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                              asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                              times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                              along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                              his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                              point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                              time and hung up.

                              It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                              up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                              called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                              appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                              paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                              performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                              that was part of it.

                              When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                              thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                              there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                              was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                              the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                              insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                              was enough.

                              Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                              true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                              I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                              I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                              opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                              like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                              prometheus wrote:

                              Hello Janice,
                              Thanks for the interesting
                              reply and the sharing of
                              insights and experiences.
                              I really really enjoyed it
                              all.

                              The reason why someone
                              knew you received your
                              pink slip is because the
                              RESA gets an initiation
                              eligibility list where he/
                              she will mark yea/nay
                              for an initiation. When
                              the yea is checked the
                              ESC (membership services)
                              will more than likely issue
                              the pink slip for the initiation.
                              Or, the file has been red
                              flagged for some reason.
                              Klemp, I'm told, will put
                              a temporary hold on higher
                              initiations. Maybe it's due
                              to pending requirements
                              for training/retraining.
                              The ESC will notify the
                              RESA when the pink slip
                              is sent.

                              Most Eckists don't know
                              how the initiation process
                              works.

                              The RESA has a membership
                              list generated by the ESC
                              for all those EKists in their
                              region and it will show
                              initiation level, one's status
                              and date of membership
                              among other info. If a
                              new person sends in a
                              membership form to the
                              ESC from anywhere in
                              the RESA's region the RESA
                              will be notified of who
                              they are and their mailing
                              address.

                              I was glad Ford Johnson
                              wrote his book and that
                              I was told about it by an
                              Eckist who is still an H.I.
                              The Irony is that he was
                              doing Public Information
                              and was quite the gossip.

                              I always was the skeptic
                              and had trouble with a lot
                              of what I saw and experienced
                              around H.I.s.

                              When I was a lower initiate
                              I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                              spiritual nor anywhere close
                              to being enlightened. There
                              were too many contradictions,
                              restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                              Once you're an EK member
                              the next step is to get you
                              to become a volunteer on
                              HK's sales team.

                              I always wondered how
                              was there an "inner" connection
                              to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                              were still smoking and
                              drinking alcohol, but
                              getting promoted with
                              more initiations? I knew
                              of two 5ths who smoked
                              and drank and got pink
                              slips for the 6th. It's clear
                              that Klemp knows nothing
                              unless informed via phone
                              or snailmail... email now!

                              Yes, Janice, we were the
                              ones awakened to the Truth
                              while all of those "Higher"
                              (pretend) Initiates are still
                              sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                              become very skilled at
                              regurgitating the PR and
                              at facilitating and public
                              speaking. But, H.I.s have
                              no idea of what it's like
                              to be Free thinkers and
                              free of religion and of the
                              EK Hierarchy. They think
                              that their "spiritual experiences"
                              are unique when these
                              are common and similar
                              experiences that all religious
                              seekers have had... even
                              Christians!

                              Yes, we needed Eckankar
                              in order to fill a void and
                              to learn some important
                              lessons about ourselves
                              and about religion in general.

                              IMO, Those who left
                              Eckankar but still have
                              a need for religion, haven't
                              really learned that they
                              will never find answers
                              via a group consciousness
                              or via a guru/master.
                              True, it is nice to know
                              people of like mind and
                              to share things, but this
                              can be a bad thing as well
                              if we become too attached
                              or lazy and want to play
                              follow the leader again.

                              It all comes down to one's
                              private and personal experiences
                              and inner revelations with
                              oneSelf and with whatever
                              catalyst of "divine" creation.

                              Prometheus

                              Janice wrote:
                              I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                              it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                              people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                              The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                              new people.

                              Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                              little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                              to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                              you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                              you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                              to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                              initiations.

                              I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                              contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                              questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                              he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                              not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                              Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                              me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                              about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                              even.

                              How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                              supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                              about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                              getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                              seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                              games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                              opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                              Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                              tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                              become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                              That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                              for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                              eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                              instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                              the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                              Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                              lucky that I got out when I did.

                              The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                              lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                              they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                              in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                              good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                              that point the lies.

                              Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                              like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                              not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                              define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                              individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                              responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                              after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                              I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                              individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                              the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                              in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                              this.

                              I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                              maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                              spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                              all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                              the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                              own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                              quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                              I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                              mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                              there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                              Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                              they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                              spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                              slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                              getting out could lead to better things.

                              Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                              reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                              your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                              to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                              serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                              the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                              are.

                              Blessings to all of you.


                              prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                              > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                              > in Satsang Society "settler"
                              > and "explorer" positions at
                              > the EK Centers would trip
                              > over their egos and go on
                              > power trips. Many seemed
                              > cliquish and would huddle
                              > together. Then, again, some
                              > weren't all that friendly or
                              > were very introverted and
                              > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                              > including the clerics, to
                              > greet and talk to all of the
                              > new or seldom seen faces
                              > that showed up. Many
                              > only saw other Eckists at
                              > the monthly EWS and this
                              > was a time to catch up on
                              > things. This is why I'd
                              > suggest going to lunch
                              > after the EWS and socializing.
                              >
                              > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                              > True? I think so!
                              >
                              > Klemp's volunteer duties
                              > and requirements for Eckists
                              > means that they must take
                              > on extroverted roles in
                              > order to become H.I.s.
                              > Eckists must force themselves,
                              > against their innate natures,
                              > to become extroverted and
                              > egocentric. These leadership
                              > requirements create conflict,
                              > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                              > Thus, this imbalance that
                              > Klemp has created and
                              > reenforces aids him in
                              > the brainwashing of his
                              > flock to have programmed
                              > religious faith, beliefs, and
                              > mystical experiences. But,
                              > this has its toll and is why
                              > many long-time H.I.s choose
                              > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                              > and his anal control tactics.
                              >
                              > Sometimes, at special
                              > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                              > and mini retreats the
                              > long-time H.I.s, former
                              > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                              > members would gather
                              > around and gossip about
                              > those absent or present.
                              > Only, it wasn't seen as
                              > gossip but rationalized
                              > as more of an evaluative/
                              > investigative discussion
                              > for possible initiation
                              > recommendation or for
                              > a Satsang position appointment.
                              > They wanted to know,
                              > from sources who knew
                              > them, if there were problems
                              > with these EKists and, if
                              > so, what the specific details
                              > were. It was all ego driven
                              > and subjective because we
                              > were all volunteers and
                              > had family and personal
                              > lives too. But, it did weed
                              > out those who weren't as
                              > well indoctrinated....
                              > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                              > crap (busy work) was pretty
                              > much always a waste of
                              > time so, in the long run,
                              > enthusiasm was probably
                              > more important than acting
                              > the part. The Satsang positions
                              > and duties kept people
                              > busy, gave them a purpose
                              > and made them feel good,
                              > although, very stressed out.
                              >
                              > The Initiation game has made
                              > Eckists struggle with denying
                              > how much more they want of
                              > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                              >
                              > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                              > that an ESA told you that the
                              > people at the EK Center were
                              > crazy. That just isn't done
                              > and is part of HK's agenda
                              > of Silence and retraining.
                              >
                              > There's that old Buddha quote
                              > that Eckists sing and talk about
                              > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                              > and this is supposed to keep
                              > ECKists quiet or else they will
                              > sometimes get reported:
                              > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                              > this I ask myself before I
                              > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                              > following this criteria is very
                              > subjective and could or would
                              > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                              > conservations.
                              >
                              > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                              > may be "true" for you and
                              > for most people but not
                              > not for all people. And, is
                              > it "necessary" to exclaim
                              > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                              > this within earshot of people
                              > who aren't feeling well or
                              > who can't enjoy the day?
                              > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                              > to keep the critics of his
                              > policies and of his H.I.s
                              > to a minimum.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                              > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                              > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                              > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                              > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned
                              off
                              > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my
                              job
                              > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's
                              been
                              > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                              > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                              > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                              >
                              > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                              > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                              >
                              > Good to be away from it.
                              >
                              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              >
                              > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from
                              the
                              > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                              > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because
                              certainly
                              > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                              > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                              > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                              > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                              > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                              > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                              > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                              > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                              > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any
                              of
                              > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                              > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                              > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony.
                              I
                              > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me
                              in
                              > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                              > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                              > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                              > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                              > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                              > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was
                              asked
                              > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                              > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                              > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                              > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                              > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                              > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                              >
                              > Russ wrote:
                              > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                              > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set
                              him
                              > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                              > made him so popular in the eck community.
                              >
                              > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense
                              of
                              > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                              > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among
                              other
                              > things.
                              >
                              > Russ
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                              > What has me ROFLMAO is
                              > that Klemp has enough of
                              > a problem that he used it
                              > in the ASK The MASTER
                              > section of the H.I. Letter!
                              > And, it was the only question!
                              > They had, supposedly, an
                              > H.I. write-in and point out
                              > the problem. No name given.
                              >
                              > I remember when I had
                              > to deal with some older
                              > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                              > coordinator and director
                              > positions and it was
                              > impossible to get this
                              > one to follow the Guidelines
                              > on EK Worship Services
                              > (EWS). Many long-time
                              > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                              > Guidelines and my
                              > RESA turned a blind-
                              > eye to it all. We had
                              > so many former RESAs
                              > in volunteer positions
                              > that it was impossible
                              > to get them on the
                              > same page and to follow
                              > procedures. I think
                              > that some were just
                              > burned out and tired
                              > of Klemp's B.S. but
                              > didn't want to leave.
                              > Maybe they had too
                              > many friendships to
                              > lose. Plus, let's face
                              > it. A lot of these people
                              > are losers in the real
                              > world but are big shots
                              > in Eckankar. Those
                              > Higher Initiations are
                              > a big deal to the ego!
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                              > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones.
                              I
                              > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing
                              to
                              > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become
                              brittle
                              > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity
                              and
                              > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                              >
                              > Non ;)
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello All,
                              > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                              > > Letter I've read that
                              > > Klemp still needs to
                              > > update his Guidelines
                              > > for the H.I.s in the
                              > > field and chastise
                              > > those who are slow
                              > > to get with the program.
                              > >
                              > > Many long-time H.I.s
                              > > want the freedom
                              > > of Soul to be more
                              > > individualistic,
                              > > spontaneous, and
                              > > creative by thinking
                              > > they (Soul) can operate
                              > > outside-of-the-box,
                              > > thus, being channels
                              > > for the ECK. Klemp
                              > > has previously stated
                              > > that he's imperfect,
                              > > but that's not the case
                              > > with the ECK, correct?
                              > >
                              > > Why, then, shouldn't
                              > > their current (Present)
                              > > Inner EK Guidance be
                              > > followed versus that
                              > > of outer set-in-stone
                              > > ESC Guidelines printed
                              > > in the Past and approved
                              > > by a committee of imperfect
                              > > people on a plane ruled
                              > > by the KAL?
                              > >
                              > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                              > > that freedom of expression
                              > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                              > > version of ECKankar.
                              > > It's a hierarchy where
                              > > everything is spelled
                              > > out and controlled
                              > > by him and his secret
                              > > RESA police, plus, all
                              > > field work must be
                              > > approved via the
                              > > current Guidelines.
                              > >
                              > > Many inexperienced
                              > > EKists like the idea of
                              > > being told how to do
                              > > this or that and what
                              > > approved books to use
                              > > and what to say and
                              > > other details to make
                              > > the promotion of
                              > > Eckankar easier.
                              > >
                              > > But the real point the
                              > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                              > > is to have EK PR more
                              > > consistent and cookie
                              > > cutter looking/sounding
                              > > for the public.
                              > >
                              > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                              > > are like following a
                              > > recipe set-in-stone
                              > > that disregards individual
                              > > or regional tastes and
                              > > disallows any additions
                              > > or omissions of other
                              > > ingredients, methods,
                              > > and/or spices.
                              > >
                              > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                              > > are about H.I.s resisting
                              > > change. He says they "rock
                              > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                              > > that "it's all about fear."
                              > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                              > > and "reinforce in each other
                              > > a group's opposition to
                              > > anything new." Strange
                              > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                              > > subject to fear since he's
                              > > supposed to protect them!
                              > > This is how the KAL works.
                              > > Klemp is his agent.
                              > >
                              > > However, the real 'change'
                              > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                              > > Klemp's nonsense and
                              > > heavy handed control tactics.
                              > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                              > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                              > > being bound to dogma.
                              > > HK side-steps delivering
                              > > on his promises of protection
                              > > and never has anything
                              > > profound to share. And,
                              > > where are those Higher
                              > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                              > > yardsticks in measuring
                              > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                              > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                              > > the long-con and is, thus,
                              > > stingy and self-serving.
                              > >
                              > > Harold goes on to say that
                              > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                              > > on the path to God instead
                              > > of being stepping stones."
                              > > Apparently, being creative
                              > > and spontaneous and
                              > > following "Inner Nudges"
                              > > and/or "Signs" are not
                              > > permitted if it conflicts
                              > > with the LEM's outer,
                              > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                              > >
                              > > The LEM states that, "We
                              > > are here to learn." However,
                              > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                              > > from others since he never
                              > > listens? He's the Top goD
                              > > and doesn't partake in
                              > > two-way dialogues with
                              > > those under his authority.
                              > >
                              > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                              > > and unloving as he continues
                              > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                              > > believe that if they sit still
                              > > and breathe only enough to
                              > > sustain life that they may
                              > > well dodge the lightning
                              > > strikes of irksome change."
                              > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                              > > like KAL! However, by doing
                              > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                              > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                              > > Don't EKists still die of all
                              > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                              > > that could have be averted
                              > > if they had gotten proper
                              > > and immediate care? Sure!
                              > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                              > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                              > > are meaningless... unless
                              > > you've given this Black
                              > > Magician power over you!
                              > >
                              > > But, it seems that HK
                              > > has something else stuck
                              > > in his craw. It seems to
                              > > me that Klemp doesn't
                              > > like his 7ths just sitting
                              > > still and Contemplating
                              > > or HUing, and enjoying
                              > > life. But why shouldn't
                              > > they take it easy after
                              > > 40 years of doing PR
                              > > work for Eckankar!
                              > >
                              > > So, what does Klemp
                              > > the All compassionate,
                              > > loving, positive, and
                              > > empathetic icon of EK
                              > > conclude?
                              > >
                              > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                              > > refuses to adhere to
                              > > the ECK Guidelines
                              > > needs to be addressed
                              > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                              > > I wonder what that
                              > > really means? Well,
                              > > unless you're already
                              > > a 7th you can kiss that
                              > > next initiation good-bye
                              > > for like 10-20 years!
                              > >
                              > > Klemp continues to say,
                              > > "These are big stakes!
                              > > Continued refusal means
                              > > it's time for a replacement
                              > > to step in. A change is
                              > > due. Change. isn't it
                              > > funny how we have come
                              > > full circle?" No! It's not
                              > > really funny. Klemp
                              > > abuses the concept
                              > > of "change" and makes
                              > > it into a misnomer.
                              > >
                              > > What "changes" are there
                              > > in Eckankar? The same
                              > > old things are merely
                              > > revisited, updated, dusted
                              > > off and made to seem
                              > > "new." It's all a facade,
                              > > smoke and mirrors, and
                              > > a game of pretend by
                              > > creating brightly colored
                              > > straws to grab at and
                              > > cling to when drowning.
                              > >
                              > > Too bad that EKists are
                              > > so deluded and needy
                              > > and aren't able to read
                              > > between the lines and
                              > > see the real truth behind
                              > > Klemp's words and methods.
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                            • Janice Pfeiffer
                              I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things.  I should have told you that in response when you told me what
                              Message 14 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
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                                I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things.  I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations.  I did admire you for it also.  I apologize for not telling you then.
                                 
                                At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time.  There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others. 
                                 
                                Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join.  I did go in of my own free will like everybody else.  I opened myself up to it, like everybody else.  So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts.  We chose to join eckankar.
                                 
                                Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it.  You were one of those. 
                                 
                                Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people?    Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others. 
                                 
                                I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get.  Do you think those who passed on, do?  It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.
                                 
                                By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart. 
                                 
                                Be at peace 
                                 
                                Janice
                                 
                                 
                                 


                                --- On Sun, 12/16/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:

                                From: Non <eckchains@...>
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 6:02 AM

                                 
                                Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                Blessings

                                Non ;)

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >Hello Janice,
                                Most H.I.s have no idea
                                how the EK Initiation
                                process works. It's sad
                                because there are some
                                really nice and gentile
                                chelas who have been
                                passed over on the 5th.
                                Some died as 4ths when
                                they should have had
                                some happiness, peace
                                of mind, and contentment
                                by receiving that 5th.
                                I've know several eckists
                                where this has happened.
                                It was no big deal to give
                                them their 5th initiation,
                                but some RESAs are mean-
                                spirited, lack empathy,
                                and are petty. They've
                                gotten caught up in HK's
                                game. All Eckists should
                                get the 5th after no more
                                than 20 years, especially,
                                when they participate
                                and are kept current on
                                their membership. However,
                                that's not the way the
                                power trip is played by
                                some RESAs.

                                I hate to admit this but
                                I helped the RESA when
                                asked about people. I
                                was quizzed about those
                                up for, usually, the 5th
                                and 6th initiation. I was
                                asked about what the EKist
                                said, how they acted and
                                conducted themselves
                                and any unusual things
                                that I noticed about
                                their behavior or performance.
                                And then I was asked for
                                my opinion. Unfortunately
                                my replies, I know, had
                                some initiations delayed
                                for these people and I
                                regret that I got caught
                                up in this petty mind game.
                                Some of these people are
                                still H.I.s and have no idea
                                why they had to wait so
                                long for their 5th or 6th.
                                Many probably think that
                                the Mahanta was testing
                                them! LOL! On the other
                                hand maybe some of them,
                                by now, have been asked
                                to evaluate people too.
                                I wonder if they put two
                                and two together and
                                figured it out, unless,
                                they were told why like
                                I had been told.

                                Why, though, should
                                Klemp have a system
                                for initiations that judges
                                and punishes Eckists
                                based upon our evaluations?
                                Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                of the Mahanta?

                                Besides, a 5th is no big
                                deal, and it's not like one
                                becomes a cleric automatically
                                with a 5th. Really, being
                                an 5th is no more being
                                an official representative
                                of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                Yes, most Eckists have
                                no idea that a computer
                                generated eligibility list
                                is sent to the RESA by the
                                ESC and that phone calls
                                are made asking questions
                                where subjective answers
                                are given and that the RESA
                                uses these to either approve
                                and give a recommendation
                                for initiation or doesn't.
                                However, I will say that
                                any "No" has to have an
                                valid reason. The ESC
                                usually follows the RESAs'
                                recommendations.

                                BTW- Janice, I think that
                                your RESA approved of
                                your initiation because
                                he felt guilty for having
                                yelled at you, plus, you
                                could have reported him
                                to the ESC. Maybe the
                                initiation approval was
                                meant to appease you?

                                Prometheus

                                Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                person?

                                That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                totally useless.

                                In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                didn't use his name at all.

                                The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                time and hung up.

                                It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                that was part of it.

                                When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                was enough.

                                Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                prometheus wrote:

                                Hello Janice,
                                Thanks for the interesting
                                reply and the sharing of
                                insights and experiences.
                                I really really enjoyed it
                                all.

                                The reason why someone
                                knew you received your
                                pink slip is because the
                                RESA gets an initiation
                                eligibility list where he/
                                she will mark yea/nay
                                for an initiation. When
                                the yea is checked the
                                ESC (membership services)
                                will more than likely issue
                                the pink slip for the initiation.
                                Or, the file has been red
                                flagged for some reason.
                                Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                a temporary hold on higher
                                initiations. Maybe it's due
                                to pending requirements
                                for training/retraining.
                                The ESC will notify the
                                RESA when the pink slip
                                is sent.

                                Most Eckists don't know
                                how the initiation process
                                works.

                                The RESA has a membership
                                list generated by the ESC
                                for all those EKists in their
                                region and it will show
                                initiation level, one's status
                                and date of membership
                                among other info. If a
                                new person sends in a
                                membership form to the
                                ESC from anywhere in
                                the RESA's region the RESA
                                will be notified of who
                                they are and their mailing
                                address.

                                I was glad Ford Johnson
                                wrote his book and that
                                I was told about it by an
                                Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                The Irony is that he was
                                doing Public Information
                                and was quite the gossip.

                                I always was the skeptic
                                and had trouble with a lot
                                of what I saw and experienced
                                around H.I.s.

                                When I was a lower initiate
                                I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                spiritual nor anywhere close
                                to being enlightened. There
                                were too many contradictions,
                                restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                Once you're an EK member
                                the next step is to get you
                                to become a volunteer on
                                HK's sales team.

                                I always wondered how
                                was there an "inner" connection
                                to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                were still smoking and
                                drinking alcohol, but
                                getting promoted with
                                more initiations? I knew
                                of two 5ths who smoked
                                and drank and got pink
                                slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                that Klemp knows nothing
                                unless informed via phone
                                or snailmail... email now!

                                Yes, Janice, we were the
                                ones awakened to the Truth
                                while all of those "Higher"
                                (pretend) Initiates are still
                                sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                become very skilled at
                                regurgitating the PR and
                                at facilitating and public
                                speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                no idea of what it's like
                                to be Free thinkers and
                                free of religion and of the
                                EK Hierarchy. They think
                                that their "spiritual experiences"
                                are unique when these
                                are common and similar
                                experiences that all religious
                                seekers have had... even
                                Christians!

                                Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                in order to fill a void and
                                to learn some important
                                lessons about ourselves
                                and about religion in general.

                                IMO, Those who left
                                Eckankar but still have
                                a need for religion, haven't
                                really learned that they
                                will never find answers
                                via a group consciousness
                                or via a guru/master.
                                True, it is nice to know
                                people of like mind and
                                to share things, but this
                                can be a bad thing as well
                                if we become too attached
                                or lazy and want to play
                                follow the leader again.

                                It all comes down to one's
                                private and personal experiences
                                and inner revelations with
                                oneSelf and with whatever
                                catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                Prometheus

                                Janice wrote:
                                I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                new people.

                                Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                initiations.

                                I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                even.

                                How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                lucky that I got out when I did.

                                The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                that point the lies.

                                Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                this.

                                I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                getting out could lead to better things.

                                Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                are.

                                Blessings to all of you.

                                prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                > and "explorer" positions at
                                > the EK Centers would trip
                                > over their egos and go on
                                > power trips. Many seemed
                                > cliquish and would huddle
                                > together. Then, again, some
                                > weren't all that friendly or
                                > were very introverted and
                                > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                > including the clerics, to
                                > greet and talk to all of the
                                > new or seldom seen faces
                                > that showed up. Many
                                > only saw other Eckists at
                                > the monthly EWS and this
                                > was a time to catch up on
                                > things. This is why I'd
                                > suggest going to lunch
                                > after the EWS and socializing.
                                >
                                > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                > True? I think so!
                                >
                                > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                > and requirements for Eckists
                                > means that they must take
                                > on extroverted roles in
                                > order to become H.I.s.
                                > Eckists must force themselves,
                                > against their innate natures,
                                > to become extroverted and
                                > egocentric. These leadership
                                > requirements create conflict,
                                > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                > Thus, this imbalance that
                                > Klemp has created and
                                > reenforces aids him in
                                > the brainwashing of his
                                > flock to have programmed
                                > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                > mystical experiences. But,
                                > this has its toll and is why
                                > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                > and his anal control tactics.
                                >
                                > Sometimes, at special
                                > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                > and mini retreats the
                                > long-time H.I.s, former
                                > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                > members would gather
                                > around and gossip about
                                > those absent or present.
                                > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                > gossip but rationalized
                                > as more of an evaluative/
                                > investigative discussion
                                > for possible initiation
                                > recommendation or for
                                > a Satsang position appointment.
                                > They wanted to know,
                                > from sources who knew
                                > them, if there were problems
                                > with these EKists and, if
                                > so, what the specific details
                                > were. It was all ego driven
                                > and subjective because we
                                > were all volunteers and
                                > had family and personal
                                > lives too. But, it did weed
                                > out those who weren't as
                                > well indoctrinated....
                                > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                > much always a waste of
                                > time so, in the long run,
                                > enthusiasm was probably
                                > more important than acting
                                > the part. The Satsang positions
                                > and duties kept people
                                > busy, gave them a purpose
                                > and made them feel good,
                                > although, very stressed out.
                                >
                                > The Initiation game has made
                                > Eckists struggle with denying
                                > how much more they want of
                                > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                >
                                > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                > that an ESA told you that the
                                > people at the EK Center were
                                > crazy. That just isn't done
                                > and is part of HK's agenda
                                > of Silence and retraining.
                                >
                                > There's that old Buddha quote
                                > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                > and this is supposed to keep
                                > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                > sometimes get reported:
                                > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                > this I ask myself before I
                                > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                > following this criteria is very
                                > subjective and could or would
                                > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                > conservations.
                                >
                                > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                > may be "true" for you and
                                > for most people but not
                                > not for all people. And, is
                                > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                > this within earshot of people
                                > who aren't feeling well or
                                > who can't enjoy the day?
                                > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                > to keep the critics of his
                                > policies and of his H.I.s
                                > to a minimum.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned
                                off
                                > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my
                                job
                                > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's
                                been
                                > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                >
                                > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                >
                                > Good to be away from it.
                                >
                                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                >
                                > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from
                                the
                                > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because
                                certainly
                                > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any
                                of
                                > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony.
                                I
                                > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me
                                in
                                > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was
                                asked
                                > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                >
                                > Russ wrote:
                                > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set
                                him
                                > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                >
                                > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense
                                of
                                > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among
                                other
                                > things.
                                >
                                > Russ
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > prometheus wrote:
                                > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                > that Klemp has enough of
                                > a problem that he used it
                                > in the ASK The MASTER
                                > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                > And, it was the only question!
                                > They had, supposedly, an
                                > H.I. write-in and point out
                                > the problem. No name given.
                                >
                                > I remember when I had
                                > to deal with some older
                                > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                > coordinator and director
                                > positions and it was
                                > impossible to get this
                                > one to follow the Guidelines
                                > on EK Worship Services
                                > (EWS). Many long-time
                                > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                > Guidelines and my
                                > RESA turned a blind-
                                > eye to it all. We had
                                > so many former RESAs
                                > in volunteer positions
                                > that it was impossible
                                > to get them on the
                                > same page and to follow
                                > procedures. I think
                                > that some were just
                                > burned out and tired
                                > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                > didn't want to leave.
                                > Maybe they had too
                                > many friendships to
                                > lose. Plus, let's face
                                > it. A lot of these people
                                > are losers in the real
                                > world but are big shots
                                > in Eckankar. Those
                                > Higher Initiations are
                                > a big deal to the ego!
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones.
                                I
                                > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing
                                to
                                > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become
                                brittle
                                > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity
                                and
                                > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                >
                                > Non ;)
                                >
                                > prometheus wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello All,
                                > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                > > Letter I've read that
                                > > Klemp still needs to
                                > > update his Guidelines
                                > > for the H.I.s in the
                                > > field and chastise
                                > > those who are slow
                                > > to get with the program.
                                > >
                                > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                > > want the freedom
                                > > of Soul to be more
                                > > individualistic,
                                > > spontaneous, and
                                > > creative by thinking
                                > > they (Soul) can operate
                                > > outside-of-the-box,
                                > > thus, being channels
                                > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                > > has previously stated
                                > > that he's imperfect,
                                > > but that's not the case
                                > > with the ECK, correct?
                                > >
                                > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                > > their current (Present)
                                > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                > > followed versus that
                                > > of outer set-in-stone
                                > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                > > in the Past and approved
                                > > by a committee of imperfect
                                > > people on a plane ruled
                                > > by the KAL?
                                > >
                                > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                > > that freedom of expression
                                > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                > > version of ECKankar.
                                > > It's a hierarchy where
                                > > everything is spelled
                                > > out and controlled
                                > > by him and his secret
                                > > RESA police, plus, all
                                > > field work must be
                                > > approved via the
                                > > current Guidelines.
                                > >
                                > > Many inexperienced
                                > > EKists like the idea of
                                > > being told how to do
                                > > this or that and what
                                > > approved books to use
                                > > and what to say and
                                > > other details to make
                                > > the promotion of
                                > > Eckankar easier.
                                > >
                                > > But the real point the
                                > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                > > is to have EK PR more
                                > > consistent and cookie
                                > > cutter looking/sounding
                                > > for the public.
                                > >
                                > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                > > are like following a
                                > > recipe set-in-stone
                                > > that disregards individual
                                > > or regional tastes and
                                > > disallows any additions
                                > > or omissions of other
                                > > ingredients, methods,
                                > > and/or spices.
                                > >
                                > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                > > change. He says they "rock
                                > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                > > that "it's all about fear."
                                > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                > > and "reinforce in each other
                                > > a group's opposition to
                                > > anything new." Strange
                                > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                > > subject to fear since he's
                                > > supposed to protect them!
                                > > This is how the KAL works.
                                > > Klemp is his agent.
                                > >
                                > > However, the real 'change'
                                > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                > > being bound to dogma.
                                > > HK side-steps delivering
                                > > on his promises of protection
                                > > and never has anything
                                > > profound to share. And,
                                > > where are those Higher
                                > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                > > yardsticks in measuring
                                > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                > > stingy and self-serving.
                                > >
                                > > Harold goes on to say that
                                > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                > > on the path to God instead
                                > > of being stepping stones."
                                > > Apparently, being creative
                                > > and spontaneous and
                                > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                > > permitted if it conflicts
                                > > with the LEM's outer,
                                > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                > >
                                > > The LEM states that, "We
                                > > are here to learn." However,
                                > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                > > from others since he never
                                > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                > > and doesn't partake in
                                > > two-way dialogues with
                                > > those under his authority.
                                > >
                                > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                > > and unloving as he continues
                                > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                > > believe that if they sit still
                                > > and breathe only enough to
                                > > sustain life that they may
                                > > well dodge the lightning
                                > > strikes of irksome change."
                                > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                > > that could have be averted
                                > > if they had gotten proper
                                > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                > > are meaningless... unless
                                > > you've given this Black
                                > > Magician power over you!
                                > >
                                > > But, it seems that HK
                                > > has something else stuck
                                > > in his craw. It seems to
                                > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                > > still and Contemplating
                                > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                > > life. But why shouldn't
                                > > they take it easy after
                                > > 40 years of doing PR
                                > > work for Eckankar!
                                > >
                                > > So, what does Klemp
                                > > the All compassionate,
                                > > loving, positive, and
                                > > empathetic icon of EK
                                > > conclude?
                                > >
                                > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                > > refuses to adhere to
                                > > the ECK Guidelines
                                > > needs to be addressed
                                > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                > > I wonder what that
                                > > really means? Well,
                                > > unless you're already
                                > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                > > next initiation good-bye
                                > > for like 10-20 years!
                                > >
                                > > Klemp continues to say,
                                > > "These are big stakes!
                                > > Continued refusal means
                                > > it's time for a replacement
                                > > to step in. A change is
                                > > due. Change. isn't it
                                > > funny how we have come
                                > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                > > really funny. Klemp
                                > > abuses the concept
                                > > of "change" and makes
                                > > it into a misnomer.
                                > >
                                > > What "changes" are there
                                > > in Eckankar? The same
                                > > old things are merely
                                > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                > > off and made to seem
                                > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                > > a game of pretend by
                                > > creating brightly colored
                                > > straws to grab at and
                                > > cling to when drowning.
                                > >
                                > > Too bad that EKists are
                                > > so deluded and needy
                                > > and aren't able to read
                                > > between the lines and
                                > > see the real truth behind
                                > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus

                              • Janice Pfeiffer
                                Hi Russ,   I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from
                                Message 15 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Russ,
                                   
                                  I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from the start that those sacred initiations come from the mahanta. 
                                   
                                  I hope all goes well with you as you take the final stages of leaving eckankar.  I hope you will find comfort in knowing that you can stand on your own and any growth you had while in, you still have.  All along you were doing it for yourself, and you still can.
                                   
                                  I know you have the strength and courage to do anything you feel you have to do.  I hope you know that this site is a great place to get support should you needed. 
                                   
                                  Please know I will be thinking of you in the coming weeks and I will be sending warm thoughts your way.
                                   
                                  Keep your chin up and please know you are a very good person person.
                                   
                                  Janice

                                  --- On Sat, 12/15/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                                  From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                  To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 3:35 PM

                                   
                                  Janice,

                                  I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

                                  I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

                                  That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                  On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                  I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

                                  Later,
                                  Russ


                                  From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                   
                                  Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                                   
                                  Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                                   
                                  That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                                   
                                  In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                                   
                                   I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                                   
                                  The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                                   
                                  It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                                   
                                  When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                                   
                                  Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                                   
                                  I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                                  --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                                   
                                  Hello Janice,
                                  Thanks for the interesting
                                  reply and the sharing of
                                  insights and experiences.
                                  I really really enjoyed it
                                  all.

                                  The reason why someone
                                  knew you received your
                                  pink slip is because the
                                  RESA gets an initiation
                                  eligibility list where he/
                                  she will mark yea/nay
                                  for an initiation. When
                                  the yea is checked the
                                  ESC (membership services)
                                  will more than likely issue
                                  the pink slip for the initiation.
                                  Or, the file has been red
                                  flagged for some reason.
                                  Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                  a temporary hold on higher
                                  initiations. Maybe it's due
                                  to pending requirements
                                  for training/retraining.
                                  The ESC will notify the
                                  RESA when the pink slip
                                  is sent.

                                  Most Eckists don't know
                                  how the initiation process
                                  works.

                                  The RESA has a membership
                                  list generated by the ESC
                                  for all those EKists in their
                                  region and it will show
                                  initiation level, one's status
                                  and date of membership
                                  among other info. If a
                                  new person sends in a
                                  membership form to the
                                  ESC from anywhere in
                                  the RESA's region the RESA
                                  will be notified of who
                                  they are and their mailing
                                  address.

                                  I was glad Ford Johnson
                                  wrote his book and that
                                  I was told about it by an
                                  Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                  The Irony is that he was
                                  doing Public Information
                                  and was quite the gossip.

                                  I always was the skeptic
                                  and had trouble with a lot
                                  of what I saw and experienced
                                  around H.I.s.

                                  When I was a lower initiate
                                  I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                  spiritual nor anywhere close
                                  to being enlightened. There
                                  were too many contradictions,
                                  restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                  Once you're an EK member
                                  the next step is to get you
                                  to become a volunteer on
                                  HK's sales team.

                                  I always wondered how
                                  was there an "inner" connection
                                  to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                  were still smoking and
                                  drinking alcohol, but
                                  getting promoted with
                                  more initiations? I knew
                                  of two 5ths who smoked
                                  and drank and got pink
                                  slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                  that Klemp knows nothing
                                  unless informed via phone
                                  or snailmail... email now!

                                  Yes, Janice, we were the
                                  ones awakened to the Truth
                                  while all of those "Higher"
                                  (pretend) Initiates are still
                                  sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                  become very skilled at
                                  regurgitating the PR and
                                  at facilitating and public
                                  speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                  no idea of what it's like
                                  to be Free thinkers and
                                  free of religion and of the
                                  EK Hierarchy. They think
                                  that their "spiritual experiences"
                                  are unique when these
                                  are common and similar
                                  experiences that all religious
                                  seekers have had... even
                                  Christians!

                                  Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                  in order to fill a void and
                                  to learn some important
                                  lessons about ourselves
                                  and about religion in general.

                                  IMO, Those who left
                                  Eckankar but still have
                                  a need for religion, haven't
                                  really learned that they
                                  will never find answers
                                  via a group consciousness
                                  or via a guru/master.
                                  True, it is nice to know
                                  people of like mind and
                                  to share things, but this
                                  can be a bad thing as well
                                  if we become too attached
                                  or lazy and want to play
                                  follow the leader again.

                                  It all comes down to one's
                                  private and personal experiences
                                  and inner revelations with
                                  oneSelf and with whatever
                                  catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                  Prometheus

                                  Janice wrote:
                                  I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                  Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                  I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                  Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                  How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                  That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                  The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                  Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                  I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                  I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                  I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                  Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                  Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                  Blessings to all of you.


                                  prometheus wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                  > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                  > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                  > and "explorer" positions at
                                  > the EK Centers would trip
                                  > over their egos and go on
                                  > power trips. Many seemed
                                  > cliquish and would huddle
                                  > together. Then, again, some
                                  > weren't all that friendly or
                                  > were very introverted and
                                  > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                  > including the clerics, to
                                  > greet and talk to all of the
                                  > new or seldom seen faces
                                  > that showed up. Many
                                  > only saw other Eckists at
                                  > the monthly EWS and this
                                  > was a time to catch up on
                                  > things. This is why I'd
                                  > suggest going to lunch
                                  > after the EWS and socializing.
                                  >
                                  > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                  > True? I think so!
                                  >
                                  > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                  > and requirements for Eckists
                                  > means that they must take
                                  > on extroverted roles in
                                  > order to become H.I.s.
                                  > Eckists must force themselves,
                                  > against their innate natures,
                                  > to become extroverted and
                                  > egocentric. These leadership
                                  > requirements create conflict,
                                  > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                  > Thus, this imbalance that
                                  > Klemp has created and
                                  > reenforces aids him in
                                  > the brainwashing of his
                                  > flock to have programmed
                                  > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                  > mystical experiences. But,
                                  > this has its toll and is why
                                  > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                  > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                  > and his anal control tactics.
                                  >
                                  > Sometimes, at special
                                  > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                  > and mini retreats the
                                  > long-time H.I.s, former
                                  > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                  > members would gather
                                  > around and gossip about
                                  > those absent or present.
                                  > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                  > gossip but rationalized
                                  > as more of an evaluative/
                                  > investigative discussion
                                  > for possible initiation
                                  > recommendation or for
                                  > a Satsang position appointment.
                                  > They wanted to know,
                                  > from sources who knew
                                  > them, if there were problems
                                  > with these EKists and, if
                                  > so, what the specific details
                                  > were. It was all ego driven
                                  > and subjective because we
                                  > were all volunteers and
                                  > had family and personal
                                  > lives too. But, it did weed
                                  > out those who weren't as
                                  > well indoctrinated....
                                  > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                  > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                  > much always a waste of
                                  > time so, in the long run,
                                  > enthusiasm was probably
                                  > more important than acting
                                  > the part. The Satsang positions
                                  > and duties kept people
                                  > busy, gave them a purpose
                                  > and made them feel good,
                                  > although, very stressed out.
                                  >
                                  > The Initiation game has made
                                  > Eckists struggle with denying
                                  > how much more they want of
                                  > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                  >
                                  > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                  > that an ESA told you that the
                                  > people at the EK Center were
                                  > crazy. That just isn't done
                                  > and is part of HK's agenda
                                  > of Silence and retraining.
                                  >
                                  > There's that old Buddha quote
                                  > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                  > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                  > and this is supposed to keep
                                  > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                  > sometimes get reported:
                                  > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                  > this I ask myself before I
                                  > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                  > following this criteria is very
                                  > subjective and could or would
                                  > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                  > conservations.
                                  >
                                  > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                  > may be "true" for you and
                                  > for most people but not
                                  > not for all people. And, is
                                  > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                  > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                  > this within earshot of people
                                  > who aren't feeling well or
                                  > who can't enjoy the day?
                                  > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                  > to keep the critics of his
                                  > policies and of his H.I.s
                                  > to a minimum.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                  > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                  > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                  > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                  > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                  > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                  > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                  > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                  > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                  > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                  >
                                  > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                  > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                  >
                                  > Good to be away from it.
                                  >
                                  > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                  > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                  > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                  > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                  > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                  > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                  > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                  > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                  > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                  > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                  > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                  > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                  > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                  > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                  > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                  > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                  > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                  > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                  > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                  > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                  > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                  > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                  > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                  > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                  > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                  > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                  > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                  > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                  >
                                  > Russ wrote:
                                  > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                  > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                  > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                  > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                  >
                                  > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                  > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                  > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                  > things.
                                  >
                                  > Russ
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                  > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                  > that Klemp has enough of
                                  > a problem that he used it
                                  > in the ASK The MASTER
                                  > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                  > And, it was the only question!
                                  > They had, supposedly, an
                                  > H.I. write-in and point out
                                  > the problem. No name given.
                                  >
                                  > I remember when I had
                                  > to deal with some older
                                  > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                  > coordinator and director
                                  > positions and it was
                                  > impossible to get this
                                  > one to follow the Guidelines
                                  > on EK Worship Services
                                  > (EWS). Many long-time
                                  > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                  > Guidelines and my
                                  > RESA turned a blind-
                                  > eye to it all. We had
                                  > so many former RESAs
                                  > in volunteer positions
                                  > that it was impossible
                                  > to get them on the
                                  > same page and to follow
                                  > procedures. I think
                                  > that some were just
                                  > burned out and tired
                                  > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                  > didn't want to leave.
                                  > Maybe they had too
                                  > many friendships to
                                  > lose. Plus, let's face
                                  > it. A lot of these people
                                  > are losers in the real
                                  > world but are big shots
                                  > in Eckankar. Those
                                  > Higher Initiations are
                                  > a big deal to the ego!
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                  > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                  > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                  > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                  > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                  > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                  >
                                  > Non ;)
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello All,
                                  > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                  > > Letter I've read that
                                  > > Klemp still needs to
                                  > > update his Guidelines
                                  > > for the H.I.s in the
                                  > > field and chastise
                                  > > those who are slow
                                  > > to get with the program.
                                  > >
                                  > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                  > > want the freedom
                                  > > of Soul to be more
                                  > > individualistic,
                                  > > spontaneous, and
                                  > > creative by thinking
                                  > > they (Soul) can operate
                                  > > outside-of-the-box,
                                  > > thus, being channels
                                  > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                  > > has previously stated
                                  > > that he's imperfect,
                                  > > but that's not the case
                                  > > with the ECK, correct?
                                  > >
                                  > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                  > > their current (Present)
                                  > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                  > > followed versus that
                                  > > of outer set-in-stone
                                  > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                  > > in the Past and approved
                                  > > by a committee of imperfect
                                  > > people on a plane ruled
                                  > > by the KAL?
                                  > >
                                  > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                  > > that freedom of expression
                                  > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                  > > version of ECKankar.
                                  > > It's a hierarchy where
                                  > > everything is spelled
                                  > > out and controlled
                                  > > by him and his secret
                                  > > RESA police, plus, all
                                  > > field work must be
                                  > > approved via the
                                  > > current Guidelines.
                                  > >
                                  > > Many inexperienced
                                  > > EKists like the idea of
                                  > > being told how to do
                                  > > this or that and what
                                  > > approved books to use
                                  > > and what to say and
                                  > > other details to make
                                  > > the promotion of
                                  > > Eckankar easier.
                                  > >
                                  > > But the real point the
                                  > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                  > > is to have EK PR more
                                  > > consistent and cookie
                                  > > cutter looking/sounding
                                  > > for the public.
                                  > >
                                  > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                  > > are like following a
                                  > > recipe set-in-stone
                                  > > that disregards individual
                                  > > or regional tastes and
                                  > > disallows any additions
                                  > > or omissions of other
                                  > > ingredients, methods,
                                  > > and/or spices.
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                  > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                  > > change. He says they "rock
                                  > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                  > > that "it's all about fear."
                                  > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                  > > and "reinforce in each other
                                  > > a group's opposition to
                                  > > anything new." Strange
                                  > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                  > > subject to fear since he's
                                  > > supposed to protect them!
                                  > > This is how the KAL works.
                                  > > Klemp is his agent.
                                  > >
                                  > > However, the real 'change'
                                  > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                  > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                  > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                  > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                  > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                  > > being bound to dogma.
                                  > > HK side-steps delivering
                                  > > on his promises of protection
                                  > > and never has anything
                                  > > profound to share. And,
                                  > > where are those Higher
                                  > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                  > > yardsticks in measuring
                                  > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                  > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                  > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                  > > stingy and self-serving.
                                  > >
                                  > > Harold goes on to say that
                                  > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                  > > on the path to God instead
                                  > > of being stepping stones."
                                  > > Apparently, being creative
                                  > > and spontaneous and
                                  > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                  > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                  > > permitted if it conflicts
                                  > > with the LEM's outer,
                                  > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                  > >
                                  > > The LEM states that, "We
                                  > > are here to learn." However,
                                  > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                  > > from others since he never
                                  > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                  > > and doesn't partake in
                                  > > two-way dialogues with
                                  > > those under his authority.
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                  > > and unloving as he continues
                                  > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                  > > believe that if they sit still
                                  > > and breathe only enough to
                                  > > sustain life that they may
                                  > > well dodge the lightning
                                  > > strikes of irksome change."
                                  > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                  > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                  > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                  > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                  > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                  > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                  > > that could have be averted
                                  > > if they had gotten proper
                                  > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                  > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                  > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                  > > are meaningless... unless
                                  > > you've given this Black
                                  > > Magician power over you!
                                  > >
                                  > > But, it seems that HK
                                  > > has something else stuck
                                  > > in his craw. It seems to
                                  > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                  > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                  > > still and Contemplating
                                  > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                  > > life. But why shouldn't
                                  > > they take it easy after
                                  > > 40 years of doing PR
                                  > > work for Eckankar!
                                  > >
                                  > > So, what does Klemp
                                  > > the All compassionate,
                                  > > loving, positive, and
                                  > > empathetic icon of EK
                                  > > conclude?
                                  > >
                                  > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                  > > refuses to adhere to
                                  > > the ECK Guidelines
                                  > > needs to be addressed
                                  > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                  > > I wonder what that
                                  > > really means? Well,
                                  > > unless you're already
                                  > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                  > > next initiation good-bye
                                  > > for like 10-20 years!
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp continues to say,
                                  > > "These are big stakes!
                                  > > Continued refusal means
                                  > > it's time for a replacement
                                  > > to step in. A change is
                                  > > due. Change. isn't it
                                  > > funny how we have come
                                  > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                  > > really funny. Klemp
                                  > > abuses the concept
                                  > > of "change" and makes
                                  > > it into a misnomer.
                                  > >
                                  > > What "changes" are there
                                  > > in Eckankar? The same
                                  > > old things are merely
                                  > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                  > > off and made to seem
                                  > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                  > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                  > > a game of pretend by
                                  > > creating brightly colored
                                  > > straws to grab at and
                                  > > cling to when drowning.
                                  > >
                                  > > Too bad that EKists are
                                  > > so deluded and needy
                                  > > and aren't able to read
                                  > > between the lines and
                                  > > see the real truth behind
                                  > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                  >



                                • Russ Rodnick
                                  Janice, you are so kind , thank you. Russ ________________________________ From: Janice Pfeiffer To:
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Janice,
                                    you are so kind , thank you.

                                    Russ


                                    From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:35 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                     
                                    Hi Russ,
                                     
                                    I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from the start that those sacred initiations come from the mahanta. 
                                     
                                    I hope all goes well with you as you take the final stages of leaving eckankar.  I hope you will find comfort in knowing that you can stand on your own and any growth you had while in, you still have.  All along you were doing it for yourself, and you still can.
                                     
                                    I know you have the strength and courage to do anything you feel you have to do.  I hope you know that this site is a great place to get support should you needed. 
                                     
                                    Please know I will be thinking of you in the coming weeks and I will be sending warm thoughts your way.
                                     
                                    Keep your chin up and please know you are a very good person person.
                                     
                                    Janice

                                    --- On Sat, 12/15/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                                    From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                    To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 3:35 PM

                                     
                                    Janice,

                                    I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

                                    I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

                                    That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                    On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                    I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

                                    Later,
                                    Russ


                                    From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                     
                                    Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                                     
                                    Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                                     
                                    That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                                     
                                    In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                                     
                                     I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                                     
                                    The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                                     
                                    It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                                     
                                    When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                                     
                                    Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                                     
                                    I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                                    --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                                     
                                    Hello Janice,
                                    Thanks for the interesting
                                    reply and the sharing of
                                    insights and experiences.
                                    I really really enjoyed it
                                    all.

                                    The reason why someone
                                    knew you received your
                                    pink slip is because the
                                    RESA gets an initiation
                                    eligibility list where he/
                                    she will mark yea/nay
                                    for an initiation. When
                                    the yea is checked the
                                    ESC (membership services)
                                    will more than likely issue
                                    the pink slip for the initiation.
                                    Or, the file has been red
                                    flagged for some reason.
                                    Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                    a temporary hold on higher
                                    initiations. Maybe it's due
                                    to pending requirements
                                    for training/retraining.
                                    The ESC will notify the
                                    RESA when the pink slip
                                    is sent.

                                    Most Eckists don't know
                                    how the initiation process
                                    works.

                                    The RESA has a membership
                                    list generated by the ESC
                                    for all those EKists in their
                                    region and it will show
                                    initiation level, one's status
                                    and date of membership
                                    among other info. If a
                                    new person sends in a
                                    membership form to the
                                    ESC from anywhere in
                                    the RESA's region the RESA
                                    will be notified of who
                                    they are and their mailing
                                    address.

                                    I was glad Ford Johnson
                                    wrote his book and that
                                    I was told about it by an
                                    Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                    The Irony is that he was
                                    doing Public Information
                                    and was quite the gossip.

                                    I always was the skeptic
                                    and had trouble with a lot
                                    of what I saw and experienced
                                    around H.I.s.

                                    When I was a lower initiate
                                    I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                    spiritual nor anywhere close
                                    to being enlightened. There
                                    were too many contradictions,
                                    restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                    Once you're an EK member
                                    the next step is to get you
                                    to become a volunteer on
                                    HK's sales team.

                                    I always wondered how
                                    was there an "inner" connection
                                    to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                    were still smoking and
                                    drinking alcohol, but
                                    getting promoted with
                                    more initiations? I knew
                                    of two 5ths who smoked
                                    and drank and got pink
                                    slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                    that Klemp knows nothing
                                    unless informed via phone
                                    or snailmail... email now!

                                    Yes, Janice, we were the
                                    ones awakened to the Truth
                                    while all of those "Higher"
                                    (pretend) Initiates are still
                                    sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                    become very skilled at
                                    regurgitating the PR and
                                    at facilitating and public
                                    speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                    no idea of what it's like
                                    to be Free thinkers and
                                    free of religion and of the
                                    EK Hierarchy. They think
                                    that their "spiritual experiences"
                                    are unique when these
                                    are common and similar
                                    experiences that all religious
                                    seekers have had... even
                                    Christians!

                                    Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                    in order to fill a void and
                                    to learn some important
                                    lessons about ourselves
                                    and about religion in general.

                                    IMO, Those who left
                                    Eckankar but still have
                                    a need for religion, haven't
                                    really learned that they
                                    will never find answers
                                    via a group consciousness
                                    or via a guru/master.
                                    True, it is nice to know
                                    people of like mind and
                                    to share things, but this
                                    can be a bad thing as well
                                    if we become too attached
                                    or lazy and want to play
                                    follow the leader again.

                                    It all comes down to one's
                                    private and personal experiences
                                    and inner revelations with
                                    oneSelf and with whatever
                                    catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                    Prometheus

                                    Janice wrote:
                                    I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                    Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                    I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                    Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                    How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                    That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                    The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                    Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                    I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                    I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                    I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                    Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                    Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                    Blessings to all of you.


                                    prometheus wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                    > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                    > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                    > and "explorer" positions at
                                    > the EK Centers would trip
                                    > over their egos and go on
                                    > power trips. Many seemed
                                    > cliquish and would huddle
                                    > together. Then, again, some
                                    > weren't all that friendly or
                                    > were very introverted and
                                    > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                    > including the clerics, to
                                    > greet and talk to all of the
                                    > new or seldom seen faces
                                    > that showed up. Many
                                    > only saw other Eckists at
                                    > the monthly EWS and this
                                    > was a time to catch up on
                                    > things. This is why I'd
                                    > suggest going to lunch
                                    > after the EWS and socializing.
                                    >
                                    > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                    > True? I think so!
                                    >
                                    > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                    > and requirements for Eckists
                                    > means that they must take
                                    > on extroverted roles in
                                    > order to become H.I.s.
                                    > Eckists must force themselves,
                                    > against their innate natures,
                                    > to become extroverted and
                                    > egocentric. These leadership
                                    > requirements create conflict,
                                    > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                    > Thus, this imbalance that
                                    > Klemp has created and
                                    > reenforces aids him in
                                    > the brainwashing of his
                                    > flock to have programmed
                                    > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                    > mystical experiences. But,
                                    > this has its toll and is why
                                    > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                    > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                    > and his anal control tactics.
                                    >
                                    > Sometimes, at special
                                    > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                    > and mini retreats the
                                    > long-time H.I.s, former
                                    > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                    > members would gather
                                    > around and gossip about
                                    > those absent or present.
                                    > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                    > gossip but rationalized
                                    > as more of an evaluative/
                                    > investigative discussion
                                    > for possible initiation
                                    > recommendation or for
                                    > a Satsang position appointment.
                                    > They wanted to know,
                                    > from sources who knew
                                    > them, if there were problems
                                    > with these EKists and, if
                                    > so, what the specific details
                                    > were. It was all ego driven
                                    > and subjective because we
                                    > were all volunteers and
                                    > had family and personal
                                    > lives too. But, it did weed
                                    > out those who weren't as
                                    > well indoctrinated....
                                    > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                    > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                    > much always a waste of
                                    > time so, in the long run,
                                    > enthusiasm was probably
                                    > more important than acting
                                    > the part. The Satsang positions
                                    > and duties kept people
                                    > busy, gave them a purpose
                                    > and made them feel good,
                                    > although, very stressed out.
                                    >
                                    > The Initiation game has made
                                    > Eckists struggle with denying
                                    > how much more they want of
                                    > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                    >
                                    > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                    > that an ESA told you that the
                                    > people at the EK Center were
                                    > crazy. That just isn't done
                                    > and is part of HK's agenda
                                    > of Silence and retraining.
                                    >
                                    > There's that old Buddha quote
                                    > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                    > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                    > and this is supposed to keep
                                    > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                    > sometimes get reported:
                                    > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                    > this I ask myself before I
                                    > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                    > following this criteria is very
                                    > subjective and could or would
                                    > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                    > conservations.
                                    >
                                    > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                    > may be "true" for you and
                                    > for most people but not
                                    > not for all people. And, is
                                    > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                    > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                    > this within earshot of people
                                    > who aren't feeling well or
                                    > who can't enjoy the day?
                                    > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                    > to keep the critics of his
                                    > policies and of his H.I.s
                                    > to a minimum.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                    > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                    > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                    > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                    > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                    > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                    > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                    > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                    > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                    > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                    >
                                    > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                    > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                    >
                                    > Good to be away from it.
                                    >
                                    > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                    > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                    > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                    > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                    > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                    > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                    > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                    > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                    > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                    > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                    > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                    > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                    > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                    > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                    > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                    > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                    > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                    > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                    > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                    > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                    > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                    > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                    > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                    > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                    > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                    > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                    > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                    > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                    >
                                    > Russ wrote:
                                    > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                    > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                    > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                    > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                    >
                                    > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                    > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                    > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                    > things.
                                    >
                                    > Russ
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                    > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                    > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                    > that Klemp has enough of
                                    > a problem that he used it
                                    > in the ASK The MASTER
                                    > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                    > And, it was the only question!
                                    > They had, supposedly, an
                                    > H.I. write-in and point out
                                    > the problem. No name given.
                                    >
                                    > I remember when I had
                                    > to deal with some older
                                    > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                    > coordinator and director
                                    > positions and it was
                                    > impossible to get this
                                    > one to follow the Guidelines
                                    > on EK Worship Services
                                    > (EWS). Many long-time
                                    > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                    > Guidelines and my
                                    > RESA turned a blind-
                                    > eye to it all. We had
                                    > so many former RESAs
                                    > in volunteer positions
                                    > that it was impossible
                                    > to get them on the
                                    > same page and to follow
                                    > procedures. I think
                                    > that some were just
                                    > burned out and tired
                                    > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                    > didn't want to leave.
                                    > Maybe they had too
                                    > many friendships to
                                    > lose. Plus, let's face
                                    > it. A lot of these people
                                    > are losers in the real
                                    > world but are big shots
                                    > in Eckankar. Those
                                    > Higher Initiations are
                                    > a big deal to the ego!
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                    > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                    > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                    > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                    > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                    > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                    >
                                    > Non ;)
                                    >
                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello All,
                                    > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                    > > Letter I've read that
                                    > > Klemp still needs to
                                    > > update his Guidelines
                                    > > for the H.I.s in the
                                    > > field and chastise
                                    > > those who are slow
                                    > > to get with the program.
                                    > >
                                    > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                    > > want the freedom
                                    > > of Soul to be more
                                    > > individualistic,
                                    > > spontaneous, and
                                    > > creative by thinking
                                    > > they (Soul) can operate
                                    > > outside-of-the-box,
                                    > > thus, being channels
                                    > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                    > > has previously stated
                                    > > that he's imperfect,
                                    > > but that's not the case
                                    > > with the ECK, correct?
                                    > >
                                    > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                    > > their current (Present)
                                    > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                    > > followed versus that
                                    > > of outer set-in-stone
                                    > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                    > > in the Past and approved
                                    > > by a committee of imperfect
                                    > > people on a plane ruled
                                    > > by the KAL?
                                    > >
                                    > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                    > > that freedom of expression
                                    > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                    > > version of ECKankar.
                                    > > It's a hierarchy where
                                    > > everything is spelled
                                    > > out and controlled
                                    > > by him and his secret
                                    > > RESA police, plus, all
                                    > > field work must be
                                    > > approved via the
                                    > > current Guidelines.
                                    > >
                                    > > Many inexperienced
                                    > > EKists like the idea of
                                    > > being told how to do
                                    > > this or that and what
                                    > > approved books to use
                                    > > and what to say and
                                    > > other details to make
                                    > > the promotion of
                                    > > Eckankar easier.
                                    > >
                                    > > But the real point the
                                    > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                    > > is to have EK PR more
                                    > > consistent and cookie
                                    > > cutter looking/sounding
                                    > > for the public.
                                    > >
                                    > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                    > > are like following a
                                    > > recipe set-in-stone
                                    > > that disregards individual
                                    > > or regional tastes and
                                    > > disallows any additions
                                    > > or omissions of other
                                    > > ingredients, methods,
                                    > > and/or spices.
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                    > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                    > > change. He says they "rock
                                    > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                    > > that "it's all about fear."
                                    > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                    > > and "reinforce in each other
                                    > > a group's opposition to
                                    > > anything new." Strange
                                    > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                    > > subject to fear since he's
                                    > > supposed to protect them!
                                    > > This is how the KAL works.
                                    > > Klemp is his agent.
                                    > >
                                    > > However, the real 'change'
                                    > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                    > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                    > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                    > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                    > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                    > > being bound to dogma.
                                    > > HK side-steps delivering
                                    > > on his promises of protection
                                    > > and never has anything
                                    > > profound to share. And,
                                    > > where are those Higher
                                    > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                    > > yardsticks in measuring
                                    > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                    > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                    > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                    > > stingy and self-serving.
                                    > >
                                    > > Harold goes on to say that
                                    > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                    > > on the path to God instead
                                    > > of being stepping stones."
                                    > > Apparently, being creative
                                    > > and spontaneous and
                                    > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                    > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                    > > permitted if it conflicts
                                    > > with the LEM's outer,
                                    > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                    > >
                                    > > The LEM states that, "We
                                    > > are here to learn." However,
                                    > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                    > > from others since he never
                                    > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                    > > and doesn't partake in
                                    > > two-way dialogues with
                                    > > those under his authority.
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                    > > and unloving as he continues
                                    > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                    > > believe that if they sit still
                                    > > and breathe only enough to
                                    > > sustain life that they may
                                    > > well dodge the lightning
                                    > > strikes of irksome change."
                                    > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                    > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                    > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                    > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                    > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                    > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                    > > that could have be averted
                                    > > if they had gotten proper
                                    > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                    > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                    > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                    > > are meaningless... unless
                                    > > you've given this Black
                                    > > Magician power over you!
                                    > >
                                    > > But, it seems that HK
                                    > > has something else stuck
                                    > > in his craw. It seems to
                                    > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                    > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                    > > still and Contemplating
                                    > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                    > > life. But why shouldn't
                                    > > they take it easy after
                                    > > 40 years of doing PR
                                    > > work for Eckankar!
                                    > >
                                    > > So, what does Klemp
                                    > > the All compassionate,
                                    > > loving, positive, and
                                    > > empathetic icon of EK
                                    > > conclude?
                                    > >
                                    > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                    > > refuses to adhere to
                                    > > the ECK Guidelines
                                    > > needs to be addressed
                                    > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                    > > I wonder what that
                                    > > really means? Well,
                                    > > unless you're already
                                    > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                    > > next initiation good-bye
                                    > > for like 10-20 years!
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp continues to say,
                                    > > "These are big stakes!
                                    > > Continued refusal means
                                    > > it's time for a replacement
                                    > > to step in. A change is
                                    > > due. Change. isn't it
                                    > > funny how we have come
                                    > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                    > > really funny. Klemp
                                    > > abuses the concept
                                    > > of "change" and makes
                                    > > it into a misnomer.
                                    > >
                                    > > What "changes" are there
                                    > > in Eckankar? The same
                                    > > old things are merely
                                    > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                    > > off and made to seem
                                    > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                    > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                    > > a game of pretend by
                                    > > creating brightly colored
                                    > > straws to grab at and
                                    > > cling to when drowning.
                                    > >
                                    > > Too bad that EKists are
                                    > > so deluded and needy
                                    > > and aren't able to read
                                    > > between the lines and
                                    > > see the real truth behind
                                    > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    >





                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hello Janice, Non and All, Thank you for the kind words and understanding. It got me to thinking about the basis for the whole EK initiation eligibility
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
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                                      Hello Janice, Non and All,
                                      Thank you for the kind
                                      words and understanding.
                                      It got me to thinking about
                                      the basis for the whole EK
                                      initiation eligibility screening.

                                      I think that we've all heard
                                      about the importance of
                                      keeping the EK Teachings
                                      "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
                                      must be current on procedures,
                                      and guidelines which will,
                                      also, ensure that they are
                                      able to regurgitate the
                                      approved propaganda.
                                      The initiation eligibility
                                      screenings are to sort out
                                      those who still need more
                                      training or are ready to
                                      advance to the next stage
                                      and take on more responsibilities
                                      with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
                                      Sales Teams.

                                      Plus, the initiation screenings
                                      ensure that Klemp will have
                                      people who are willing to
                                      participate in the promotion
                                      of the organization. It has
                                      nothing to do with one's
                                      spiritual growth. But, sincerity
                                      and believability goes a
                                      long way in convincing others.
                                      However, one can't be too
                                      deluded. One needs to be
                                      believable and this is why
                                      the faithful are the ones most
                                      shocked when they can finally
                                      open their minds to hear
                                      the truth.

                                      Maybe most of the heavy
                                      handed methods, lack of
                                      empathy and compassion,
                                      are rationalizations where
                                      the RESAs are thinking
                                      they are toughening up
                                      and strengthening Soul
                                      while, also, protecting
                                      the Mahanta, supporting
                                      his "Mission," and keeping
                                      the EK Teachings "pure"
                                      and unchangeable over
                                      time.

                                      When taking a second look;
                                      HK has his RESAs confused.
                                      How does Klemp continue
                                      to promote "change" and
                                      is always updating things
                                      while keeping the "original"
                                      EK Teachings by Twitchell
                                      "pure?" The truth is that,
                                      as LEM, Klemp has the
                                      authority to Change and
                                      revisit all EK Dogma and
                                      "update" and revise it
                                      with his own spin.

                                      Therefore, only the current
                                      EK teachings (Guidelines
                                      included) are "pure" according
                                      to what Klemp is suggesting.
                                      Except, the reason why HK
                                      has chosen not to reprint
                                      most of Twitchell's books
                                      is because they are highly
                                      plagiarized versus being
                                      "current" with today's higher
                                      consciousness.

                                      The foundation of Eckankar
                                      is built upon a con and a
                                      hoax and is not even copied
                                      from the highest "truths"
                                      of other religions since these
                                      religions are flawed as well.
                                      Twitchell's books are more
                                      evidence to prove the case
                                      and to show that he was
                                      simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
                                      and a narcissistic wannabe.

                                      Prometheus


                                      Prometheus

                                      Janice wrote:
                                      I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

                                      At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

                                      Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

                                      Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

                                      Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

                                      I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

                                      By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

                                      Be at peace

                                      Janice


                                      Non ekchains:

                                      Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                      Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                      http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                      Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                      In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                      I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                      Blessings

                                      Non ;)


                                      prometheus wrote:

                                      Hello Janice,
                                      Most H.I.s have no idea
                                      how the EK Initiation
                                      process works. It's sad
                                      because there are some
                                      really nice and gentile
                                      chelas who have been
                                      passed over on the 5th.
                                      Some died as 4ths when
                                      they should have had
                                      some happiness, peace
                                      of mind, and contentment
                                      by receiving that 5th.
                                      I've know several eckists
                                      where this has happened.
                                      It was no big deal to give
                                      them their 5th initiation,
                                      but some RESAs are mean-
                                      spirited, lack empathy,
                                      and are petty. They've
                                      gotten caught up in HK's
                                      game. All Eckists should
                                      get the 5th after no more
                                      than 20 years, especially,
                                      when they participate
                                      and are kept current on
                                      their membership. However,
                                      that's not the way the
                                      power trip is played by
                                      some RESAs.

                                      I hate to admit this but
                                      I helped the RESA when
                                      asked about people. I
                                      was quizzed about those
                                      up for, usually, the 5th
                                      and 6th initiation. I was
                                      asked about what the EKist
                                      said, how they acted and
                                      conducted themselves
                                      and any unusual things
                                      that I noticed about
                                      their behavior or performance.
                                      And then I was asked for
                                      my opinion. Unfortunately
                                      my replies, I know, had
                                      some initiations delayed
                                      for these people and I
                                      regret that I got caught
                                      up in this petty mind game.
                                      Some of these people are
                                      still H.I.s and have no idea
                                      why they had to wait so
                                      long for their 5th or 6th.
                                      Many probably think that
                                      the Mahanta was testing
                                      them! LOL! On the other
                                      hand maybe some of them,
                                      by now, have been asked
                                      to evaluate people too.
                                      I wonder if they put two
                                      and two together and
                                      figured it out.

                                      Why, though, should
                                      Klemp have a system
                                      for initiations that judges
                                      and punishes Eckists
                                      based upon our evaluations?
                                      Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                      of the Mahanta?

                                      Besides, a 5th is no big
                                      deal, and it's not like one
                                      becomes a cleric automatically
                                      with a 5th. Really, being
                                      an 5th is no more being
                                      an official representative
                                      of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                      Yes, most Eckists have
                                      no idea that a computer
                                      generated eligibility list
                                      is sent to the RESA by the
                                      ESC and that phone calls
                                      are made asking questions
                                      where subjective answers
                                      are given and that the RESA
                                      uses these to either approve
                                      and give a recommendation
                                      for initiation or doesn't.
                                      However, I will say that
                                      any "No" has to have an
                                      valid reason. The ESC
                                      usually follows the RESAs'
                                      recommendations.

                                      BTW- Janice, I think that
                                      your RESA approved of
                                      your initiation because
                                      he felt guilty for having
                                      yelled at you, plus, you
                                      could have reported him
                                      to the ESC. Maybe the
                                      initiation approval was
                                      meant to appease you?

                                      Prometheus

                                      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                      Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                      Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                      teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                      person?

                                      That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                      was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                      on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                      crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                      that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                      was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                      totally useless.

                                      In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                      about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                      I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                      of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                      didn't use his name at all.

                                      The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                      seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                      had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                      then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                      asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                      times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                      along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                      his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                      point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                      time and hung up.

                                      It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                      up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                      called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                      appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                      paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                      performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                      that was part of it.

                                      When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                      thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                      there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                      was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                      the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                      insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                      was enough.

                                      Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                      true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                      I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                      I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                      opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                      like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                      prometheus wrote:

                                      Hello Janice,
                                      Thanks for the interesting
                                      reply and the sharing of
                                      insights and experiences.
                                      I really really enjoyed it
                                      all.

                                      The reason why someone
                                      knew you received your
                                      pink slip is because the
                                      RESA gets an initiation
                                      eligibility list where he/
                                      she will mark yea/nay
                                      for an initiation. When
                                      the yea is checked the
                                      ESC (membership services)
                                      will more than likely issue
                                      the pink slip for the initiation.
                                      Or, the file has been red
                                      flagged for some reason.
                                      Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                      a temporary hold on higher
                                      initiations. Maybe it's due
                                      to pending requirements
                                      for training/retraining.
                                      The ESC will notify the
                                      RESA when the pink slip
                                      is sent.

                                      Most Eckists don't know
                                      how the initiation process
                                      works.

                                      The RESA has a membership
                                      list generated by the ESC
                                      for all those EKists in their
                                      region and it will show
                                      initiation level, one's status
                                      and date of membership
                                      among other info. If a
                                      new person sends in a
                                      membership form to the
                                      ESC from anywhere in
                                      the RESA's region the RESA
                                      will be notified of who
                                      they are and their mailing
                                      address.

                                      I was glad Ford Johnson
                                      wrote his book and that
                                      I was told about it by an
                                      Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                      The Irony is that he was
                                      doing Public Information
                                      and was quite the gossip.

                                      I always was the skeptic
                                      and had trouble with a lot
                                      of what I saw and experienced
                                      around H.I.s.

                                      When I was a lower initiate
                                      I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                      spiritual nor anywhere close
                                      to being enlightened. There
                                      were too many contradictions,
                                      restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                      Once you're an EK member
                                      the next step is to get you
                                      to become a volunteer on
                                      HK's sales team.

                                      I always wondered how
                                      was there an "inner" connection
                                      to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                      were still smoking and
                                      drinking alcohol, but
                                      getting promoted with
                                      more initiations? I knew
                                      of two 5ths who smoked
                                      and drank and got pink
                                      slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                      that Klemp knows nothing
                                      unless informed via phone
                                      or snailmail... email now!

                                      Yes, Janice, we were the
                                      ones awakened to the Truth
                                      while all of those "Higher"
                                      (pretend) Initiates are still
                                      sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                      become very skilled at
                                      regurgitating the PR and
                                      at facilitating and public
                                      speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                      no idea of what it's like
                                      to be Free thinkers and
                                      free of religion and of the
                                      EK Hierarchy. They think
                                      that their "spiritual experiences"
                                      are unique when these
                                      are common and similar
                                      experiences that all religious
                                      seekers have had... even
                                      Christians!

                                      Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                      in order to fill a void and
                                      to learn some important
                                      lessons about ourselves
                                      and about religion in general.

                                      IMO, Those who left
                                      Eckankar but still have
                                      a need for religion, haven't
                                      really learned that they
                                      will never find answers
                                      via a group consciousness
                                      or via a guru/master.
                                      True, it is nice to know
                                      people of like mind and
                                      to share things, but this
                                      can be a bad thing as well
                                      if we become too attached
                                      or lazy and want to play
                                      follow the leader again.

                                      It all comes down to one's
                                      private and personal experiences
                                      and inner revelations with
                                      oneSelf and with whatever
                                      catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                      Prometheus

                                      Janice wrote:
                                      I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                      it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                      people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                      The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                      new people.

                                      Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                      little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                      to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                      you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                      you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                      to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                      initiations.

                                      I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                      contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                      questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                      he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                      not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                      Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                      me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                      about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                      even.

                                      How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                      supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                      about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                      getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                      seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                      games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                      opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                      Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                      tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                      become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                      That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                      for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                      eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                      instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                      the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                      Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                      lucky that I got out when I did.

                                      The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                      lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                      they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                      in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                      good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                      that point the lies.

                                      Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                      like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                      not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                      define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                      individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                      responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                      after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                      I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                      individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                      the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                      in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                      this.

                                      I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                      maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                      spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                      all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                      the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                      own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                      quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                      I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                      mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                      there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                      Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                      they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                      spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                      slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                      getting out could lead to better things.

                                      Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                      reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                      your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                      to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                      serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                      the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                      are.

                                      Blessings to all of you.
                                    • Janice Pfeiffer
                                      Prometheus,   The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.   As a young person, I blamed my parents
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Dec 17, 2012
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                                        Prometheus,
                                         
                                        The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.
                                         
                                        As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up.  I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point.  I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all. 
                                         
                                        Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time.  There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of.  They gave what they could.  They were not capable of more.
                                         
                                        I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes.  But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time. 
                                         
                                        It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude.  If you don't know better, you can't do better.
                                         
                                        If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.
                                         
                                        We all know that's not possible.  
                                         
                                        I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life.  It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are. 
                                         
                                        You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect.  If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.
                                         
                                        You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.
                                         
                                        You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.
                                         
                                        Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all  positions you may have held.
                                         
                                        You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.
                                         
                                        How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?
                                         
                                        You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.
                                         
                                        You changed course. 
                                         
                                        A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.
                                         
                                        In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.
                                         
                                        I do have a question.  You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations.  What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development?  I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons.  It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org.  Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone.  Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar?  Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money.  Is that it?
                                         
                                        I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in.  I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time.  I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now.  If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed.  There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff. 
                                         
                                        Thank you Prometheus
                                         


                                        --- On Sun, 12/16/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 6:44 PM

                                         
                                        Hello Janice, Non and All,
                                        Thank you for the kind
                                        words and understanding.
                                        It got me to thinking about
                                        the basis for the whole EK
                                        initiation eligibility screening.

                                        I think that we've all heard
                                        about the importance of
                                        keeping the EK Teachings
                                        "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
                                        must be current on procedures,
                                        and guidelines which will,
                                        also, ensure that they are
                                        able to regurgitate the
                                        approved propaganda.
                                        The initiation eligibility
                                        screenings are to sort out
                                        those who still need more
                                        training or are ready to
                                        advance to the next stage
                                        and take on more responsibilities
                                        with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
                                        Sales Teams.

                                        Plus, the initiation screenings
                                        ensure that Klemp will have
                                        people who are willing to
                                        participate in the promotion
                                        of the organization. It has
                                        nothing to do with one's
                                        spiritual growth. But, sincerity
                                        and believability goes a
                                        long way in convincing others.
                                        However, one can't be too
                                        deluded. One needs to be
                                        believable and this is why
                                        the faithful are the ones most
                                        shocked when they can finally
                                        open their minds to hear
                                        the truth.

                                        Maybe most of the heavy
                                        handed methods, lack of
                                        empathy and compassion,
                                        are rationalizations where
                                        the RESAs are thinking
                                        they are toughening up
                                        and strengthening Soul
                                        while, also, protecting
                                        the Mahanta, supporting
                                        his "Mission," and keeping
                                        the EK Teachings "pure"
                                        and unchangeable over
                                        time.

                                        When taking a second look;
                                        HK has his RESAs confused.
                                        How does Klemp continue
                                        to promote "change" and
                                        is always updating things
                                        while keeping the "original"
                                        EK Teachings by Twitchell
                                        "pure?" The truth is that,
                                        as LEM, Klemp has the
                                        authority to Change and
                                        revisit all EK Dogma and
                                        "update" and revise it
                                        with his own spin.

                                        Therefore, only the current
                                        EK teachings (Guidelines
                                        included) are "pure" according
                                        to what Klemp is suggesting.
                                        Except, the reason why HK
                                        has chosen not to reprint
                                        most of Twitchell's books
                                        is because they are highly
                                        plagiarized versus being
                                        "current" with today's higher
                                        consciousness.

                                        The foundation of Eckankar
                                        is built upon a con and a
                                        hoax and is not even copied
                                        from the highest "truths"
                                        of other religions since these
                                        religions are flawed as well.
                                        Twitchell's books are more
                                        evidence to prove the case
                                        and to show that he was
                                        simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
                                        and a narcissistic wannabe.

                                        Prometheus

                                        Prometheus

                                        Janice wrote:
                                        I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

                                        At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

                                        Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

                                        Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

                                        Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

                                        I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

                                        By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

                                        Be at peace

                                        Janice


                                        Non ekchains:

                                        Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                        Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                        http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                        Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                        In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                        I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                        Blessings

                                        Non ;)

                                        prometheus wrote:

                                        Hello Janice,
                                        Most H.I.s have no idea
                                        how the EK Initiation
                                        process works. It's sad
                                        because there are some
                                        really nice and gentile
                                        chelas who have been
                                        passed over on the 5th.
                                        Some died as 4ths when
                                        they should have had
                                        some happiness, peace
                                        of mind, and contentment
                                        by receiving that 5th.
                                        I've know several eckists
                                        where this has happened.
                                        It was no big deal to give
                                        them their 5th initiation,
                                        but some RESAs are mean-
                                        spirited, lack empathy,
                                        and are petty. They've
                                        gotten caught up in HK's
                                        game. All Eckists should
                                        get the 5th after no more
                                        than 20 years, especially,
                                        when they participate
                                        and are kept current on
                                        their membership. However,
                                        that's not the way the
                                        power trip is played by
                                        some RESAs.

                                        I hate to admit this but
                                        I helped the RESA when
                                        asked about people. I
                                        was quizzed about those
                                        up for, usually, the 5th
                                        and 6th initiation. I was
                                        asked about what the EKist
                                        said, how they acted and
                                        conducted themselves
                                        and any unusual things
                                        that I noticed about
                                        their behavior or performance.
                                        And then I was asked for
                                        my opinion. Unfortunately
                                        my replies, I know, had
                                        some initiations delayed
                                        for these people and I
                                        regret that I got caught
                                        up in this petty mind game.
                                        Some of these people are
                                        still H.I.s and have no idea
                                        why they had to wait so
                                        long for their 5th or 6th.
                                        Many probably think that
                                        the Mahanta was testing
                                        them! LOL! On the other
                                        hand maybe some of them,
                                        by now, have been asked
                                        to evaluate people too.
                                        I wonder if they put two
                                        and two together and
                                        figured it out.

                                        Why, though, should
                                        Klemp have a system
                                        for initiations that judges
                                        and punishes Eckists
                                        based upon our evaluations?
                                        Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                        of the Mahanta?

                                        Besides, a 5th is no big
                                        deal, and it's not like one
                                        becomes a cleric automatically
                                        with a 5th. Really, being
                                        an 5th is no more being
                                        an official representative
                                        of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                        Yes, most Eckists have
                                        no idea that a computer
                                        generated eligibility list
                                        is sent to the RESA by the
                                        ESC and that phone calls
                                        are made asking questions
                                        where subjective answers
                                        are given and that the RESA
                                        uses these to either approve
                                        and give a recommendation
                                        for initiation or doesn't.
                                        However, I will say that
                                        any "No" has to have an
                                        valid reason. The ESC
                                        usually follows the RESAs'
                                        recommendations.

                                        BTW- Janice, I think that
                                        your RESA approved of
                                        your initiation because
                                        he felt guilty for having
                                        yelled at you, plus, you
                                        could have reported him
                                        to the ESC. Maybe the
                                        initiation approval was
                                        meant to appease you?

                                        Prometheus

                                        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                        Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                        teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                        person?

                                        That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                        was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                        on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                        crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                        that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                        was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                        totally useless.

                                        In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                        about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                        I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                        of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                        didn't use his name at all.

                                        The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                        seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                        had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                        then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                        asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                        times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                        along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                        his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                        point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                        time and hung up.

                                        It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                        up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                        called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                        appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                        paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                        performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                        that was part of it.

                                        When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                        thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                        there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                        was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                        the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                        insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                        was enough.

                                        Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                        true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                        I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                        I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                        opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                        like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                        prometheus wrote:

                                        Hello Janice,
                                        Thanks for the interesting
                                        reply and the sharing of
                                        insights and experiences.
                                        I really really enjoyed it
                                        all.

                                        The reason why someone
                                        knew you received your
                                        pink slip is because the
                                        RESA gets an initiation
                                        eligibility list where he/
                                        she will mark yea/nay
                                        for an initiation. When
                                        the yea is checked the
                                        ESC (membership services)
                                        will more than likely issue
                                        the pink slip for the initiation.
                                        Or, the file has been red
                                        flagged for some reason.
                                        Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                        a temporary hold on higher
                                        initiations. Maybe it's due
                                        to pending requirements
                                        for training/retraining.
                                        The ESC will notify the
                                        RESA when the pink slip
                                        is sent.

                                        Most Eckists don't know
                                        how the initiation process
                                        works.

                                        The RESA has a membership
                                        list generated by the ESC
                                        for all those EKists in their
                                        region and it will show
                                        initiation level, one's status
                                        and date of membership
                                        among other info. If a
                                        new person sends in a
                                        membership form to the
                                        ESC from anywhere in
                                        the RESA's region the RESA
                                        will be notified of who
                                        they are and their mailing
                                        address.

                                        I was glad Ford Johnson
                                        wrote his book and that
                                        I was told about it by an
                                        Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                        The Irony is that he was
                                        doing Public Information
                                        and was quite the gossip.

                                        I always was the skeptic
                                        and had trouble with a lot
                                        of what I saw and experienced
                                        around H.I.s.

                                        When I was a lower initiate
                                        I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                        spiritual nor anywhere close
                                        to being enlightened. There
                                        were too many contradictions,
                                        restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                        Once you're an EK member
                                        the next step is to get you
                                        to become a volunteer on
                                        HK's sales team.

                                        I always wondered how
                                        was there an "inner" connection
                                        to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                        were still smoking and
                                        drinking alcohol, but
                                        getting promoted with
                                        more initiations? I knew
                                        of two 5ths who smoked
                                        and drank and got pink
                                        slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                        that Klemp knows nothing
                                        unless informed via phone
                                        or snailmail... email now!

                                        Yes, Janice, we were the
                                        ones awakened to the Truth
                                        while all of those "Higher"
                                        (pretend) Initiates are still
                                        sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                        become very skilled at
                                        regurgitating the PR and
                                        at facilitating and public
                                        speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                        no idea of what it's like
                                        to be Free thinkers and
                                        free of religion and of the
                                        EK Hierarchy. They think
                                        that their "spiritual experiences"
                                        are unique when these
                                        are common and similar
                                        experiences that all religious
                                        seekers have had... even
                                        Christians!

                                        Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                        in order to fill a void and
                                        to learn some important
                                        lessons about ourselves
                                        and about religion in general.

                                        IMO, Those who left
                                        Eckankar but still have
                                        a need for religion, haven't
                                        really learned that they
                                        will never find answers
                                        via a group consciousness
                                        or via a guru/master.
                                        True, it is nice to know
                                        people of like mind and
                                        to share things, but this
                                        can be a bad thing as well
                                        if we become too attached
                                        or lazy and want to play
                                        follow the leader again.

                                        It all comes down to one's
                                        private and personal experiences
                                        and inner revelations with
                                        oneSelf and with whatever
                                        catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                        Prometheus

                                        Janice wrote:
                                        I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                        it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                        people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                        The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                        new people.

                                        Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                        little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                        to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                        you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                        you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                        to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                        initiations.

                                        I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                        contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                        questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                        he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                        not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                        Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                        me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                        about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                        even.

                                        How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                        supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                        about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                        getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                        seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                        games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                        opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                        Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                        tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                        become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                        That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                        for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                        eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                        instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                        the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                        Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                        lucky that I got out when I did.

                                        The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                        lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                        they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                        in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                        good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                        that point the lies.

                                        Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                        like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                        not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                        define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                        individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                        responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                        after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                        I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                        individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                        the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                        in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                        this.

                                        I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                        maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                        spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                        all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                        the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                        own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                        quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                        I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                        mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                        there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                        Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                        they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                        spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                        slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                        getting out could lead to better things.

                                        Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                        reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                        your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                        to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                        serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                        the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                        are.

                                        Blessings to all of you.

                                      • prometheus_973
                                        Hello Janice, You wrote: I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Dec 17, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hello Janice,
                                          You wrote: "I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations. What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development? I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons. It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org. Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone. Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar? Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money. Is that it?"

                                          I guess that I see it all as
                                          a puzzle that PT created,
                                          DG played with, and that
                                          Klemp altered, added to,
                                          omitted and scrambled
                                          up the pieces on. Trying
                                          to piece it all together and
                                          make sense of it all is what
                                          I'm attempting.

                                          The "spiritual" aspect of
                                          eckankar is comprised
                                          of shifting paradigms and
                                          wishful thinking (imagination)
                                          is encouraged. It's acting
                                          "as if." And, there are many
                                          mistakes in judgment and
                                          perception that are overlooked
                                          or seen as magical/mystical.
                                          One's status/level in Eckankar
                                          is what strengthens the
                                          illusion powered by ego.
                                          However, when all is said
                                          and done one is left with
                                          their own private and personal
                                          reality which cannot be
                                          fully shared with even
                                          those we view as intimate.

                                          If Initiations were given
                                          for "spiritual reasons"
                                          there would, also, be
                                          inner knowledge and
                                          inner communication
                                          with the Mahanta. EK
                                          Seminars would be
                                          conducted on the "Inner"
                                          via the Soul body and
                                          these would be free
                                          of charge!

                                          Yes, Service is key for
                                          Klemp's volunteer Sales
                                          Team and is promoted
                                          regularly. However, training
                                          is required in order for
                                          EKists to seem and sound
                                          more professional and
                                          knowledgable and to prepare
                                          Eckists to be flexible and
                                          unscathed in all situations.
                                          Plus, the training will aid
                                          in promoting those on the
                                          "fast track" and update
                                          the old timers to the new
                                          procedures.

                                          Basically, Service to the
                                          Mahanta's Mission is
                                          key. Getting noticed, in
                                          a positive way, is key as
                                          well. Training is also a
                                          key element in getting
                                          promoted. Being in Satsang
                                          and teaching a class is
                                          a plus as well. Doing intros
                                          will help and being seen
                                          at the EWS will help too.
                                          Always smile and know
                                          the current info from
                                          HK's stories and books.

                                          According to Eckankar
                                          the initiation numbers
                                          are yardstick measurements
                                          of one's spiritual growth.
                                          It's an enticing sounding
                                          spin but the reality is very
                                          bureaucratic and religious
                                          in the end.

                                          Prometheus





                                          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          Prometheus,

                                          The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.

                                          As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up. I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point. I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all.

                                          Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time. There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of. They gave what they could. They were not capable of more.

                                          I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes. But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time.

                                          It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude. If you don't know better, you can't do better.

                                          If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.

                                          We all know that's not possible.

                                          I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life. It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are.

                                          You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect. If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.

                                          You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.

                                          You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.

                                          Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all positions you may have held.

                                          You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.

                                          How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?

                                          You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.

                                          You changed course.

                                          A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.

                                          In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.

                                          I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations. What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development? I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons. It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org. Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone. Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar? Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money. Is that it?

                                          I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in. I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time. I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now. If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed. There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff.

                                          Thank you Prometheus


                                          prometheus wrote:

                                          Hello Janice, Non and All,
                                          Thank you for the kind
                                          words and understanding.
                                          It got me to thinking about
                                          the basis for the whole EK
                                          initiation eligibility screening.

                                          I think that we've all heard
                                          about the importance of
                                          keeping the EK Teachings
                                          "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
                                          must be current on procedures,
                                          and guidelines which will,
                                          also, ensure that they are
                                          able to regurgitate the
                                          approved propaganda.
                                          The initiation eligibility
                                          screenings are to sort out
                                          those who still need more
                                          training or are ready to
                                          advance to the next stage
                                          and take on more responsibilities
                                          with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
                                          Sales Teams.

                                          Plus, the initiation screenings
                                          ensure that Klemp will have
                                          people who are willing to
                                          participate in the promotion
                                          of the organization. It has
                                          nothing to do with one's
                                          spiritual growth. But, sincerity
                                          and believability goes a
                                          long way in convincing others.
                                          However, one can't be too
                                          deluded. One needs to be
                                          believable and this is why
                                          the faithful are the ones most
                                          shocked when they can finally
                                          open their minds to hear
                                          the truth.

                                          Maybe most of the heavy
                                          handed methods, lack of
                                          empathy and compassion,
                                          are rationalizations where
                                          the RESAs are thinking
                                          they are toughening up
                                          and strengthening Soul
                                          while, also, protecting
                                          the Mahanta, supporting
                                          his "Mission," and keeping
                                          the EK Teachings "pure"
                                          and unchangeable over
                                          time.

                                          When taking a second look;
                                          HK has his RESAs confused.
                                          How does Klemp continue
                                          to promote "change" and
                                          is always updating things
                                          while keeping the "original"
                                          EK Teachings by Twitchell
                                          "pure?" The truth is that,
                                          as LEM, Klemp has the
                                          authority to Change and
                                          revisit all EK Dogma and
                                          "update" and revise it
                                          with his own spin.

                                          Therefore, only the current
                                          EK teachings (Guidelines
                                          included) are "pure" according
                                          to what Klemp is suggesting.
                                          Except, the reason why HK
                                          has chosen not to reprint
                                          most of Twitchell's books
                                          is because they are highly
                                          plagiarized versus being
                                          "current" with today's higher
                                          consciousness.

                                          The foundation of Eckankar
                                          is built upon a con and a
                                          hoax and is not even copied
                                          from the highest "truths"
                                          of other religions since these
                                          religions are flawed as well.
                                          Twitchell's books are more
                                          evidence to prove the case
                                          and to show that he was
                                          simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
                                          and a narcissistic wannabe.

                                          Prometheus
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